Latest Page Discussions/Comic Update Chitchat

[Sc0ut]

I don't get exactly what you mean by "punished by the narrative". This is not children's educational literature, where people who do "bad things" get punished, nor do I want it to be. But I see how my wording might be read that way. What I meant is more along the lines of "I would like to see this necessary cruelty have some consequences". There are a lot of interesting gray moral issues that can be explored more easily in horror, and I think it's a shame that a story with such a complex setting doesn't go there. I'll admit, I don't understand Minna's choice to build a world where situations like the one with the refugees in the prologue happen, but then choose to sweep those under the rug and focus on silly pranks among protagonists instead. I fully believed Minna's "don't dwell too much on it" at that time was because she intended to explore more serious moral stuff only later in the story, but now I'm not so sure anymore. On the other hand, she did literally say she intends the story to go on for decades irl, so... *shrug*


I don't see trolls as being cruel and vicious, no more than a wild animal is when it kills something (or someone). It seems in their nature to be predatory, though they also seem to have somewhat higher (or different) intelligence than an animal's. It's difficult to make any morality judgement on them, but just as I wouldn't enjoy seeing a lion tied up and slowly starve to death, even if the same lion just tried to kill me, I don't enjoy seeing all the brutal slow deaths of some of the beasts, and I wonder why Minna emphasizes them so much.

[Lazy8]

What I meant is more along the lines of "I would like to see this necessary cruelty have some consequences".

What I'm trying to figure out is what exactly you mean by "consequences".

Do you want physical consequences? Because those have already happened. Tuuri accidentally hit a troll with the tank; in return its brethren came after them and nearly skewered Emil. Sigrun and Mikkel hacked something they thought was dead, and Sigrun got thrashed immediately after.

Do you want the characters to express regret for what they've had to do? Because they have. There was that scene with Emil and the dog, and Sigrun's dialogue on why she never went into seafaring. It's subtle, but it's there. And personally, I prefer subtle.

And if I'm completely off the mark, then what do you mean?

I don't see trolls as being cruel and vicious, no more than a wild animal is when it kills something (or someone). It seems in their nature to be predatory, though they also seem to have somewhat higher (or different) intelligence than an animal's.

I can see that being the case with the trolls, but not with Sleipnope, which has definitely displayed human level intelligence - and yes, conscious cruelty ("Are you less weak this time?"). Those were not the actions of a wild animal acting on instinct, but of a calculated intelligence.

It's difficult to make any morality judgement on them, but just as I wouldn't enjoy seeing a lion tied up and slowly starve to death, even if the same lion just tried to kill me, I don't enjoy seeing all the brutal slow deaths of some of the beasts, and I wonder why Minna emphasizes them so much.

I don't think the characters enjoy it either - but in their case, it's either leave that lion tied up or it'll immediately try to eat them again.

Personally, I don't mind the emphasis because to me, it does highlight the sympathetic situation of the trolls as opposed to portraying them as nothing more than targets to be mowed down guiltlessly. But then again, that's my reading.

I guess a lot of what's bothering me is that it is self-defense, and when you say you want to see "consequences", it somehow trips just the right synapses to bring to mind a lot of RL reactions people have to anyone who hurts another human in self-defense, which I'm not going to get into here.

[Lazy8]

...and I also really need to go to bed now. I'll see your response in the morning.

[Sc0ut]

What I'm trying to figure out is what exactly you mean by "consequences".

Do you want physical consequences? Because those have already happened. Tuuri accidentally hit a troll with the tank; in return its brethren came after them and nearly skewered Emil. Sigrun and Mikkel hacked something they thought was dead, and Sigrun got thrashed immediately after.

Do you want the characters to express regret for what they've had to do? Because they have. There was that scene with Emil and the dog, and Sigrun's dialogue on why she never went into seafaring. It's subtle, but it's there. And personally, I prefer subtle.

And if I'm completely off the mark, then what do you mean?

See, you keep thinking I have a problem with all the times they ever hurt a troll, and I don't. I don't think it's cruelty that they hacked into the troll limbs that looked like tree roots - that is very much an honest mistake. I don't even mind that they shoot or stab trolls that are directly attacking them - that's perfectly justified and usually a fast death. I am mostly bothered by the beached troll (there might be others too but I can't remember now). And while I agree that Emil shows compassion towards the grosslings (hey, he's my favorite for plenty of good reasons) I don't think Sigrun displayed any compassion when she told them about the way to dispose of water beasts. I read that as her not wanting to do it because it's boring/lacking in glory. But then I read Sigrun as a high functioning psychopath, so there's that.

What I mean is basically, I want to see the trolls' perspective on this. I want to see how aware they are of what's going on, and how in control they are of their own actions. I want to see if they try to reach out to humans (the calls for help suggest that they do). What if their mind is so twisted that they interpret the violence they do as "reaching out"? In fantasy or sci-fi, even a highly intelligent creature might not be in full control of its own actions for a variety of reasons, which is why I'm not sure they're cruel and malevolent. They might be controlled by forces outside their will. 

I'm sorry you can't disentangle this from discussions about hurting humans in self-defense. It has common points but it's certainly a different discussion. I'll agree that this is not the place to go into that.

[Róisín]

Sc0ut: I'm glad you further clarified your reaction: makes more sense now!

For what it is worth, what I take from the story so far is that the rash disease has, if not an actual thinking conscious mind, at the least some kind of tropism-level awareness which subsumes and overwhelms the consciousness of the infected organism, controlling the actions of the host but perhaps not completely extinguishing the mind and spirit, leaving the victims to be carried along helplessly in their bodies. That must feel like several kinds of hell, especially if the human or animal infected has occasional moments of clarity. Hence the cries of 'Help me!', the screaming in the airwaves, the dog turning aside from savaging Emil.

Perhaps it is a sliding scale of awareness, with at one end the sort of tropic reaction one sees in the zombie ants of our worlds' Amazon forests, where ants infected by the fungus, once the mycelial threads enter their brains and nervous systems, abandon their usual safe, shaded concealment on the forest floor and instead climb a tall grass stem to which they attach themselves by their jaws, and then die, exposed to the wind which will spread the spores of the fungus to other ants. At the other end of the scale, we have Sleipnope remembering Lalli, and taunting him with his helplessness during the first attack.

We have, as yet, no idea in-story of the precise nature of the disease organism, or of the way it works. My guess would be either some sort of experimental medical treatment gone horribly wrong, or a parasite, or even a symbiont, trying to colonise a type of organism to which it is not quite suited.

Maybe the resurgence of magic in the world has something to do with this? Who knows?

[Vafhudr]

So this would be basically The Last of Us, Scandinavia edition?

[Jharad17]

Really? When have we ever seen these people go "oh no" and engage in hand wringing? You'd have a hard time finding a set of protagonists less inclined to fretting and despair even when they have very good reason to (with the exception of Emil in social situations). It would be interesting to see who tries to help, who looks for a scapegoat, who blames themselves, who remains optimistic, etc.

I was thinking about Reynir and Emil, in the "oh no"s club, but you're right, handwringing isn't any of their styles. I didn't phrase it very well, but I was more thinking along the lines of your last sentence there, with the recriminations and forced optimism and so forth that could happen. Mikkel, I would guess, will be somber, and not pull any punches, Sigrun will be either looking for something to do to fix things or she'll be blasé about it: "Well, this happened. Thought it would." But we'll know in a week or so, like you said.

[Lazy8]

I am mostly bothered by the beached troll (there might be others too but I can't remember now). And while I agree that Emil shows compassion towards the grosslings (hey, he's my favorite for plenty of good reasons) I don't think Sigrun displayed any compassion when she told them about the way to dispose of water beasts. I read that as her not wanting to do it because it's boring/lacking in glory. But then I read Sigrun as a high functioning psychopath, so there's that.

I read her differently, but that's another discussion entirely.

The necessity I see in the beached troll is this: the only thing they could have done for it at that point is gone back and killed it. The quickest and most practical way to do that is with a gun, but there's already been a lot of in-universe emphasis on why there are no shots fired unless absolutely necessary, and putting a troll out of its misery shouldn't justify putting their own lives in danger, so that's out. Emil setting it on fire would only make its death more miserable (if quicker), and given that it's a water monster we don't know whether it would even catch. So the only option left is with a knife, and to do that they'd have to get close to it. Just because it's stranded that doesn't mean it's helpless; that troll could still hurt anyone who got within striking distance (and that particular troll has quite a bit of reach). It would also take time, especially if they have to fight it to get to its head, and right now they're outside at night in the middle of winter, with a person already at risk of hypothermia and in need of medical attention, two hours' walk away from the nearest shelter. I read the context of that scene is that it's regrettable, but they have to put their own safety first.

[Purple Wyrm]

Wild, crazy, insane theory that occurred to me just before switching off the computer and going to bed.

What if Tuuri is actually immune, and Onni's been lying to her her entire life in an attempt to 'keep her safe?'

That is all. Time for zzzzzzzzz.

[Vafhudr]

That would be quite the psych out.

[JacobThomsen]

Wild, crazy, insane theory that occurred to me just before switching off the computer and going to bed.

What if Tuuri is actually immune, and Onni's been lying to her her entire life in an attempt to 'keep her safe?'

That actually kind of sound like something the overprotective side of Onni could be capable of

[Vafhudr]

And of course, since Onni is knocked out, there won't be anyone to inform everyone so we get a whole chapter of people presuming that she is now a goner.

[MR. RAGE]

Wild, crazy, insane theory that occurred to me just before switching off the computer and going to bed.

What if Tuuri is actually immune, and Onni's been lying to her her entire life in an attempt to 'keep her safe?'

That is all. Time for zzzzzzzzz.

That would be quite the psych out.

That actually kind of sound like something the overprotective side of Onni could be capable of

I have to agree; that would be quite the twist, and it's not impossible, knowing what we know of Onni. It's also not impossible, genetically-speaking. I'm not in any way a geneticist, but I remember enough of high school science to know how Mendelian heredity works. The pamphlet we get regarding the Dagrenning program on page 300 makes me think that that immunity might be a recessive genetic trait. The quoted interview from Anna Sigríður Einarsdóttir says that her husband is immune, and a donor egg would guarantee immunity for their child. To me, this implies that Anna Einarsdóttir is either completely nonimmune, or is simply a carrier for immunity (which would still not guarantee an immune child, even with an immune partner).

 We know that Lalli is immune (as is Taru). And if we look at family tree over on page 629, this means that Lalli's parents (Tuulikki and Jukka Hotakainen) were either completely immune themselves, or were carriers, or were a mixture of the two. If we assume that Jukka is/was at the very least a carrier for immunity, the same might be said of his brother Juha, Tuuri and Onni's father. And if their mother happened to also be a carrier, then Tuuri might very well be immune.  It's possible that the split occurred a generation before, that Jukka Hotakainen was immune while Juha wasn't, but if Tuuri and Onni's parents were at the very least carriers, it's possible.

Mendelian genetics is vastly oversimplified and as I've previously said, I have no background in genetics whatsoever. It's very likely that I have no idea what I'm talking about! But it is genetically possible, however unlikely, that Tuuri is immune while Onni is not.

EDIT: And I completely missed JoB's fine post over in the Tuuri Character Development thread, where some of the same conclusions were drawn.

[Anna]

Sounds… plausible, but slightly awkward; I'd presumed that most people would have been tested for immunity quite young and informed of their status by their parent(s)/guardian(s). On the assumption that this hypothesis is true, it's possible that Tuuri doesn't remember being told she was immune for whatever reason. How Onni's decision to lie about it came about and played out would be an interesting tale.

[Purple Wyrm]

EDIT: And I completely missed JoB's fine post over in the Tuuri Character Development thread, where some of the same conclusions were drawn.

Annnnnnnnd so did I!