General Discussion Thread

[Vafhudr]

Well, music can be expressed in mathematics, but that does not mean that it is math.

It's like people saying that math is the language of the universe. It's not. It's the language of the universe we have measured and quantified so far.

[hushpiper]

Well, music can be expressed in mathematics, but that does not mean that it is math.

It's like people saying that math is the language of the universe. It's not. It's the language of the universe we have measured and quantified so far.

Eh, I think it depends on how you define math, doesn't it? If you define it, for example, as a language with which people describe patterns and formulate predictive theories, I'd say music theory arguably qualifies.

[Vafhudr]

Music theory is deliberately mathematical. The link between music and math is very old. Like Plato and Pythagoras old.

And yes - music can be described as patterns of sounds and patterns can be expressed in mathematical form. Inversely you can probably render mathematical patterns into music - or at least, patterns of sound.

And this is where it gets tricky - patterns of sound are not necessarily music. Music can be mathematical, but mathematics is not necessarily musical.

[Eich]

Well, music can be expressed in mathematics, but that does not mean that it is math.

It's like people saying that math is the language of the universe. It's not. It's the language of the universe we have measured and quantified so far.

Eh, I think it depends on how you define math, doesn't it? If you define it, for example, as a language with which people describe patterns and formulate predictive theories, I'd say music theory arguably qualifies.

Actually, the best definition I've heard for math is that it's "A set of rules."
We can make up the rules to do whatever we want, and then test them to see if they work.  There's different kinds of math, like algebra and calculus.   Then there are more obscure ones that only apply to specific things like the movement of electrons, and nothing else.  It's interesting how many kinds of math there are that you won't learn about in school!

[Divra]

Harmony is distinctly a function of mathematics. The simpler the relationship between two frequencies, the more harmonious they will sound.

[Unlos]

I'm changing workplace soon! Up until now, I have just had a kind of empty "I don't know what this will be like so I really don't know what to expect and I'm also a bit foggy on how I feel about it, really!"- feeling, but now, my last day of working in Radiumhospitalet is suddenly tomorrow and I have a huuge lump in my stomach. I'm pretty sure it's going to work out, but I feel travel-sick, if you can use that word. And I miss the road I use to work, which is really pretty in spring, look:


The general discussion thread has intimidated me a bit, I fell off of it early on and have only visited sporadically, but now I have binged the last fifty pages, and must say Wow Haiz, you are so brave and I really liked your performance!

[Vafhudr]

Actually, the best definition I've heard for math is that it's "A set of rules."
We can make up the rules to do whatever we want, and then test them to see if they work.  There's different kinds of math, like algebra and calculus.   Then there are more obscure ones that only apply to specific things like the movement of electrons, and nothing else.  It's interesting how many kinds of math there are that you won't learn about in school!

"A set of rules" is also incredibly open.

I consider, and therefore discuss this with the presumption, that math is a system of rationalized relations expressed as abstract entities held together by a consistent internal logic. Within that system there is a set of rules that explains how things relate to another and the consequences of those relations.

So, for instance - what I have in mind is Euclid's Elements , in which he sets out the whole field of Geometry by making a set of rules (as you have stated) - but also explaining the whole system behind that set of rules. The rules are the outward expression of an inner logic.

So, for instance, a set of rules might not change, but the inner logic that informs how we understand those rules may change radically.

[Haiz]

The general discussion thread has intimidated me a bit, I fell off of it early on and have only visited sporadically, but now I have binged the last fifty pages, and must say Wow Haiz, you are so brave and I really liked your performance!

oh wow I admire your dedication to this thread, I have resigned myself to the fact that I'll never be able to truly keep up - I'm too easily overwhelmed - but oh gosh super mega thank you O:

also good luck on new workplace!! that is a really pretty spring pic wow

[JoB]

Actually, the best definition I've heard for math is that it's "A set of rules."
We can make up the rules to do whatever we want, and then test them to see if they work.  There's different kinds of math, like algebra and calculus.   Then there are more obscure ones that only apply to specific things like the movement of electrons, and nothing else.  It's interesting how many kinds of math there are that you won't learn about in school!

The answer to "what is mathematics" (and what isn't) has changed significantly over time. Pythagoras and his ilk would have listed logic, including philosophy, and (planar) geometry - the total opposite of the times where set theory and Venn diagrams were thought to be the most basic form of math. Today, we're focused on analysis and calculus, the latter being extended from medieval math mainly by infinitesimal calculus. Which modern philosophy has discovered as well, getting close and cuddly to math again after centuries of being something entirely different from math.

One thing that virtually all mathematicians will be able to agree on is that there is a concept of "pure" mathematics that plain doesn't care whether the models it churns out match anything in the universe, known or not. Case in point: aperiodic tilings being a purely hypothetical thing from their inception in the 1960s until Dan Shechtman first crystallographed a quasicrystal in 198x. Bam!, application case.

Even more extreme, one somewhat restricted but popular definition of mathematics is "the science of infinity", as in, being enumerable while is not etc. - note that this puts computations like "2+2=4" outside mathematics proper. And, newsflash: There isn't anything in the (known) universe that's truly infinite.

[Vafhudr]

Yes well I don't know about you guys but my high school curriculum didn't cover calculus, covering roughly the mathematical discoveries of the Greeks, Arabs, and Indians, stopping just a bit shy from Newton and Leibnitz and the world of "modern" mathematics - let alone the world of current mathematics.

[SolarPoweredGirl]

*me* Is 11:00 a good time to drink soda? Nah. *rethinks* Yes.*sip* YASSSSS. *gulp*SOOODDAAAA. TOTALLY NOT HYPPERRRR.

[Chizu]

 

Yes well I don't know about you guys but my high school curriculum didn't cover calculus, covering roughly the mathematical discoveries of the Greeks, Arabs, and Indians, stopping just a bit shy from Newton and Leibnitz and the world of "modern" mathematics - let alone the world of current mathematics.

Where did you study?? I was under the impression that calculus was essential? I was in advanced math class through my whole education, so we covered everything without stepping too much into what was thought at second or 3rd year at uni. Math is fun, not as much as biology, chemistry and psychology. But you can go creative on it.

[Sunflower]

Even more extreme, one somewhat restricted but popular definition of mathematics is "the science of infinity", as in, being enumerable while is not etc. - note that this puts computations like "2+2=4" outside mathematics proper. And, newsflash: There isn't anything in the (known) universe that's truly infinite.

Whoaaa.... aleph-null, dude.  Mystic.  How in Cantor's name did you get the Forum to do that?
...
Asking that question seems to have answered it.  I didn't realize Wikimedia had symbols of infinity for, like, just anybody to use. 

[Vafhudr]

Where did you study?? I was under the impression that calculus was essential? I was in advanced math class through my whole education, so we covered everything without stepping too much into what was thought at second or 3rd year at uni. Math is fun, not as much as biology, chemistry and psychology. But you can go creative on it.

Canada? Specifically the Alberta curriculum for the final years.

I had 5 years where math just kind of wasn't taught to me very well - and another chunk taught only English, so it was a very rough ride for me.

That is my dark, troubled backstory for becoming a humanities' student come university.

[Piney]

So... I just got my financial aid award letter from school today, and it's about $10,000 less than they gave me this year. I'm a bit scared at how my mom will take this news.
(and I understand that I'm lucky to get money at all, but New York is an expensive city and my family's paying three tuitions)