General Discussion Thread

[curiosity]

Thank you! I definitely am a feminist. Here are some reasons.

Those are reasons indeed, but unfortunately nothing would change human nature. Mentality can be somewhat modified, although it requires long time. But nature - never. There will always be people who are unsatisfied with everything. Just name it, and they will disapprove it. "You eat, you're fat. You don't eat, you're freak" etc. How would feminism creep into people's mind and click the switch there to turn off "stereotype mode"? How would it stop men from staring at women even when they don't like it? How would it stop shallow people from judging you for everything you do? Banning that attitude will not help either. Even the penalty for felonies doesn't prevent criminals from comitting them (including abuse of any sort). If something could be done with that, it would have been done long time ago, but suffering from unfair public opinion is a problem of each and every generation so far. No campaigns can make it better, alas, so it is wiser not to give a damn, because other people have absolutely no legal right to decide what is wrong or right for you.

TL;DR: curiosity is being pessimistic Siv-level.

[Piney]

Those are reasons indeed, but unfortunately nothing would change human nature. Mentality can be somewhat modified, although it requires long time. But nature - never. There will always be people who are unsatisfied with everything. Just name it, and they will disapprove it. "You eat, you're fat. You don't eat, you're freak" etc. How would feminism creep into people's mind and click the switch there to turn off "stereotype mode"? How would it stop men from staring at women even when they don't like it? How would it stop shallow people from judging you for everything you do? Banning that attitude will not help either. Even the penalty for felonies doesn't prevent criminals from comitting them (including abuse of any sort). If something could be done with that, it would have been done long time ago, but suffering from unfair public opinion is a problem of each and every generation so far. No campaigns can make it better, alas, so it is wiser not to give a damn, because other people have absolutely no legal right to decide what is wrong or right for you.

TL;DR: curiosity is being pessimistic Siv-level.

...I gotta disagree with you here. I think really the goal is to maybe not to change the current generation, because change just doesn't happen that quickly (although speaking out about this stuff can change a lot of people's minds), but so we'll be able to raise future generations which are more aware, and more fair and do understand this stuff, even if it takes a hundred years. I mean, think about the state of feminism a hundred years ago and we've actually come a long way.

_{(Also I wouldn't go so far myself as to say "human nature" because that just reminds me of "boys will be boys"...)}

[curiosity]

...I gotta disagree with you here. I think really the goal is to maybe not to change the current generation, because change just doesn't happen that quickly (although speaking out about this stuff can change a lot of people's minds), but so we'll be able to raise future generations which are more aware, and more fair and do understand this stuff, even if it takes a hundred years. I mean, think about the state of feminism a hundred years ago and we've actually come a long way.

That is worthy thesis, and what we can do is decrease the amount of discrimination. But not remove it at all, because there will always be people who are sure that their right is exclusive and will not stop where other person's right begins. I doubt that they would even bother to heed the vox clamantis, and it is highly possible that they raise their children in the same way.
And sooner or later there might be some event that will cause many things that humanity was aiming for to collapse. I see this happening right in front of me, when "all people are equal" thesis is rapidly failing to work. Not on the legal level, of course. It needs time to get back to what it used to be, a long time.

_{(Also I wouldn't go so far myself as to say "human nature" because that just reminds me of "boys will be boys"...)}

Well hasn't humanity been judging something all the time? Banning something? Disapproving? Being harsh on certain members? I'm talking global now. It is good if you have more faith in humanity than I do 

[Unlos]

Those are reasons indeed, but unfortunately nothing would change human nature. Mentality can be somewhat modified, although it requires long time. But nature - never. There will always be people who are unsatisfied with everything. Just name it, and they will disapprove it. "You eat, you're fat. You don't eat, you're freak" etc. How would feminism creep into people's mind and click the switch there to turn off "stereotype mode"? How would it stop men from staring at women even when they don't like it? How would it stop shallow people from judging you for everything you do? Banning that attitude will not help either. Even the penalty for felonies doesn't prevent criminals from comitting them (including abuse of any sort). If something could be done with that, it would have been done long time ago, but suffering from unfair public opinion is a problem of each and every generation so far. No campaigns can make it better, alas, so it is wiser not to give a damn, because other people have absolutely no legal right to decide what is wrong or right for you.

TL;DR: curiosity is being pessimistic Siv-level.

In a sense, I agree. There will probably always be people that are acting disrespectfully towards others. There will probably always be poverty and discontent, and violent crimes. But different societies have different levels of this ¹,^{2 3} isn't that proof of exactly the fact that human nature is constantly modified by other humans? I firmly believe that changing mentality also influences on how people act. I am privileged enough to live in a society that has one of the best welfare systems (in my opinion anyway) in the world, and political structures that allows me to get the work I wan't, get paid the same as my male colleagues for the same work, get respect for my abilities and qualifications and not lose out on the job market by becoming pregnant.  I sincerely wish that other people not so lucky could experience the same.

TL;DR Unlos is not quite as pessimistic as Siv.

[Eris]

Well that bummed me for the day :/
Society can be really cruel...

Aww! -comforts-

I offer up internet cookies or internet cake! Or whatever is your preference. 

[curiosity]

In a sense, I agree. There will probably always be people that are acting disrespectfully towards others. There will probably always be poverty and discontent, and violent crimes. But different societies have different levels of this ¹,^{2 3} isn't that proof of exactly the fact that human nature is constantly modified by other humans? I firmly believe that changing mentality also influences on how people act. I am privileged enough to live in a society that has one of the best welfare systems (in my opinion anyway) in the world, and political structures that allows me to get the work I wan't, get paid the same as my male colleagues for the same work, get respect for my abilities and qualifications and not lose out on the job market by becoming pregnant.  I sincerely wish that other people not so lucky could experience the same.

TL;DR Unlos is not quite as pessimistic as Siv.

And again, these things are possible due to state regulating them. I've never encountered women discrimination at school, in the university, at work etc. Women and men are treated equally by the state, I'd even say that women have actually more rights than men  according to the labour law - those rights are of course based on physiological differences. The only thing I cannot see getting better is breaking the stereotypes like "The Real Woman^TM Has To..." and "The Real Man^TM Must..." And since the state higly supports the traditional ways, inequality on domestic level is the real thing, though on the legal level we declare égalité in its best form. I am happy enough to live in a family where gender stereotypes don't work and equality is natural, but I frquently encounter people around who can cause women want feminism to help them, as you have linked few messages above.

Sorry if I seem a bit harsh and dumbly stubborn today, I don't mean persuading any of you wrong. No offence meant, of course.

[Eich]

That is worthy thesis, and what we can do is decrease the amount of discrimination. But not remove it at all, because there will always be people who are sure that their right is exclusive and will not stop where other person's right begins. I doubt that they would even bother to heed the vox clamantis, and it is highly possible that they raise their children in the same way.
And sooner or later there might be some event that will cause many things that humanity was aiming for to collapse. I see this happening right in front of me, when "all people are equal" thesis is rapidly failing to work. Not on the legal level, of course. It needs time to get back to what it used to be, a long time.

Well hasn't humanity been judging something all the time? Banning something? Disapproving? Being harsh on certain members? I'm talking global now. It is good if you have more faith in humanity than I do 

I wish there was some information I could offer to help you feel a little more optimistic, and I hope I'm not speaking out of turn here.  What you're describing sounds less like sexism and more like... cruelty?  Disregarding other peoples' right in general seems like cruelty, to me.  You're right that we'll never be able to remove all the discrimination, but we can make a difference where we put our efforts.  If you can affect some positive change where you live, surely that's a wonderful thing?

[curiosity]

I wish there was some information I could offer to help you feel a little more optimistic, and I hope I'm not speaking out of turn here.  What you're describing sounds less like sexism and more like... cruelty?  Disregarding other peoples' right in general seems like cruelty, to me.  You're right that we'll never be able to remove all the discrimination, but we can make a difference where we put our efforts.  If you can affect some positive change where you live, surely that's a wonderful thing?

Yes, I was referring to cruelty in general, or more prcisely cruel and unfair public opinion. And sexism, nationalism, racism and all other negative -isms are the forms it takes in our society. And I always compare how it is de iure and de facto, because alas, those are two different things.

But maybe that's what we study law for - to help. At least telling people about their rights will do a lot, because so many of them just don't know what they are allowed and prohibited to do and trust the blatant lie (example: there are women who don't even suspect than they can be harassed by their own husbands). And making them understand that there actually is way more than they think they can, showing that there are so many different roads to choose from - that is wonderful.

[Eich]

Yes, I was referring to cruelty in general, or more prcisely cruel and unfair public opinion. And sexism, nationalism, racism and all other negative -isms are the forms it takes in our society. And I always compare how it is de iure and de facto, because alas, those are two different things.

But maybe that's what we study law for - to help. At least telling people about their rights will do a lot, because so many of them just don't know what they are allowed and prohibited to do and trust the blatant lie (example: there are women who don't even suspect than they can be harassed by their own husbands). And making them understand that there actually is way more than they think they can, showing that there are so many different roads to choose from - that is wonderful.

Yeah, things like this used to really get me down, but then I just thought it'd be best if I got active and started doing things.  It's a much more positive attitude to have. 

[Eris]

I wish there was some information I could offer to help you feel a little more optimistic, and I hope I'm not speaking out of turn here.  What you're describing sounds less like sexism and more like... cruelty?  Disregarding other peoples' right in general seems like cruelty, to me.  You're right that we'll never be able to remove all the discrimination, but we can make a difference where we put our efforts.  If you can affect some positive change where you live, surely that's a wonderful thing?

Yes! ?

I guess part of what I want is to live in a world where we do less accepting of general cruelty, where when someone is terrible to another human being we do less shrugging and saying, "Eh, that's life, what can you do," and more standing up and saying, "No, that's not okay."  One of the things I love about this forum and about SSSS in general is how wonderful people in general here are, and it makes me greedy. I want more of life to be like this, where people are kind and polite and welcoming and . . . oh, I'm just greedy. But anyway, it's just clear to me that some places, some cultures are better about fostering mentalities of being good to one another, and I want to be part of a culture that fosters such a mentality. I want to be a part of a culture that says, "Let's be good to each other," and not one that says, "Eh, just deal with whatever bad stuff comes your way; nothing can really be done." 

[curiosity]

I want to be a part of a culture that says, "Let's be good to each other," and not one that says, "Eh, just deal with whatever bad stuff comes your way; nothing can really be done." 

You know, I'd like to agree with you here. But there's some bad stuff in the world that we can do nothing about and have no other way than to deal with it. And by "dealing with it" I mean "accept the given conditions and do whatever you can". One vivid example - the war. We can't stop or prevent the clash of two strong political forces or ideologies that are supported by states and funded generously. The other example is natural (or technogenic) catastrophe. We can do a lot here, first of all - help the ones who really need it. But isn't that what we call "dealing"? I mean, you can't change the situation in general, but you can make an effort, even when you know it will bring very little result.

[Sigrid Marie]

Myeah, so in addition to that EEG I mentioned a while ago, the doctor now also wants me to get an EKG (electrocardigraphy) which tests... something to do with the heart. I honestly have no idea exactly what it does, but I think it reads the electrical activity in the heart or something. She heard some sort of extra beat when she listened to my heart, I think? There's like a 99% chance that it's nothing at all, though, so I'm not particularly worried.

And she also wants me tested for asthma, mainly because I've had quite a few episodes involving hyperventilation in the last few years.

Actually, I was supposed to get this tested months ago, but I forgot to contact the medical centre. Heh.

[Eris]

Myeah, so in addition to that EEG I mentioned a while ago, the doctor now also wants me to get an EKG (electrocardigraphy) which tests... something to do with the heart. I honestly have no idea exactly what it does, but I think it reads the electrical activity in the heart or something. She heard some sort of extra beat when she listened to my heart, I think? There's like a 99% chance that it's nothing at all, though, so I'm not particularly worried.

And she also wants me tested for asthma, mainly because I've had quite a few episodes involving hyperventilation in the last few years.

Actually, I was supposed to get this tested months ago, but I forgot to contact the medical centre. Heh.

*hugs + support*

[DzigaWatt]

Aww! -comforts-

I offer up internet cookies or internet cake! Or whatever is your preference. 

I don't mind both, there'll just be more of me to love

[JoB]

Myeah, so in addition to that EEG I mentioned a while ago, the doctor now also wants me to get an EKG (electrocardigraphy) which tests... something to do with the heart. I honestly have no idea exactly what it does, but I think it reads the electrical activity in the heart or something. She heard some sort of extra beat when she listened to my heart, I think?

Essentially, yes. And quite certainly nothing worse than a minor arrythmia (else she would have insisted on some check being done on the spot).