Welsh?

[Dane Murgen]

I'm trying to keep it under twenty...

....
...
...

I want to learn welsh now (passively.)

Eighteen.

[Crowfeatherwolf]

I think crowfeather means  that the English words have been transliterated into Welsh eg bus--> bws or taxi--> tacsi (or at least I think that's how you spell it) (also, don't mind me I'm just trying to explain stuff. I really like Welsh, but I don't think I want to push my language wish list too far. I already have seventeen languages in it now!)

Yes! That's it exactly; I always forget the word I want to use, and end up using something slightly off. I really should just start carrying a thesaurus around to make sure I use the right variation/precision word.

Trying to phonetically spell Welsh is difficult, actually.
The "ll" sound is almost like "lluh"- lisp the "ll", but it's a rough lisp.
"Y" in what context?
The "^" is a tor: placed over a vowel, it elongates the vowel sound.
The old literature is definitely a good place to start, although I'd recommend more contemporary work too, as Welsh has changed quite a lot since the old days. As for music, listen to some of the Super Furry Animals, Gruff Rhys, etc.
Also, if you want to listen to Welsh in context, listen to the Internet Radio here: http://www.internetradiouk.com/region/wales/#bbc-radio-cymru-96-8-wenvoe
I don't know if that was much help, but send me a PM if you want anything else and I'll try to help. Great that you're showing such an interest though.
(Also, what do you mean by "romanised"?)

And my problem with "Y" is that it has so many different places…
I may be a native English speaker, but the only language I've studied is Japanese, so I have a little problem with letters that don't get said (French is murder, and I wish English didn't have so many fracophone roots; I misspell too many words for an English major.) or ones that have a wide variety of sounds attached to them. (ghoti=fish was nearly the last straw for sounds that just simply have too many letter combos attached to them).

But for the sake of this one, how about by itself? One of the bands I like is called Y Bandana, and I don't know if it's y as in "yuh," y as in I/"ee," or if it's special by itself.

And thank you for the new bands, I'm always looking for more music.

On the subject of transliteration, I know most of the signs in Cardiff are probably bilingual, but I'm probably going to go do a "pilgrimage" to all the big literary places in the country, so I was wondering if the north, and more rural areas are bilingual, or have a higher chance of being in Welsh only.
I'm pretty sure I'd figure out bws, or tacsi, but are there any words you can think of that have really different spellings from their English form? I'm hoping to not be the bumbling tourist that ends up in an off-limits zone while heading to the restroom… *sweatdrop, ehehe*

[ParanormalAndroid]

Crowfeather: in 'Y Bandana', the 'y' would be pronounced 'uh' and means 'the'.
As far as I know pretty much all the signs in Wales are bilingual thanks to the act of union, although you'll find that Welsh is far more.. Well, Welsh in the north and the west (also, literary pilgrimage? You have to go to Laugharne), but the south is more Anglicanised.
Also, not entirely sure what 'ghoti' means. In Welsh, fish is 'pysgod'.

[Dane Murgen]

Also, not entirely sure what 'ghoti' means. In Welsh, fish is 'pysgod'.

Ghoti is an alternative way of spelling the word fish using alternative ways of spelling various sounds: gh from such words as tough, cough and enough; o from words like women; ti from words like inspection, direction and action. This is a classic way of showing how stupid English spelling is.

Hope this helps!

It's also very wonderful that you gave the Welsh word for fish. How would you say that?

[Chizu]

Welsh!?! I live in Wales, surrounded by confusing welshness! I'd love to learn a bit so I know what the locals are talking about. Admittedly most of them are quite old so they most probably converse about pots and cooking. However one must never underestimate old grannies for all we know they might be planning world domination.

So which is the best way to approach Welsh? what should be considered when starting to learn it. I suppose sounds and pronunciation are vital here.

[Gwenno]

Welsh!?! I live in Wales, surrounded by confusing welshness! I'd love to learn a bit so I know what the locals are talking about. Admittedly most of them are quite old so they most probably converse about pots and cooking. However one must never underestimate old grannies for all we know they might be planning world domination.

So which is the best way to approach Welsh? what should be considered when starting to learn it. I suppose sounds and pronunciation are vital here.

I suppose it really depends on how you find it easiest to learn. Personally I think that the two most important things when learning Welsh (or any language for that matter) are to surround yourself with as much of it as possible, and to use whatever Welsh you have, no matter how little at every opportunity you can.

While sounds and pronunciation are of course quite confusing at the start, the letters all pretty much sound the same regardless of where they are in a word (although quite different to how they would sound if pronounced by an English person), so once you learn what they're supposed to sound like the rest will become easier. You can get familiar with the sound of the language by listening to the radio like Paranatural Android linked, watching some Welsh TV, or just surrounding yourself with people speaking the lingo. Many Welsh learners I know actually watch children's TV in Welsh with subtitles. The language in them are very clear and simple, and you'd be picking up repeated words in no time, even with no background in Welsh (http://cyw.s4c.co.uk/cy/chwarae#hafan - Welsh version / http://cyw.s4c.co.uk/en - English version for easier site navigation). You may feel a bit silly watching it, but it will be a Welsh you can understand quickly, and many of the actual Welsh learning tv programs produced are kinda boring tbh (cariad@iaith is pretty decent however and I think should be starting a new season soon).

If you live in Wales there is also the option of taking courses in the language (http://www.welshforadults.org/splash?orig=/), and I can almost guarantee that there will be something in your area. Some councils and jobs even offer funding if you want to take part so you can look into that

[ParanormalAndroid]

Welsh!?! I live in Wales, surrounded by confusing welshness! I'd love to learn a bit so I know what the locals are talking about. Admittedly most of them are quite old so they most probably converse about pots and cooking. However one must never underestimate old grannies for all we know they might be planning world domination.

So which is the best way to approach Welsh? what should be considered when starting to learn it. I suppose sounds and pronunciation are vital here.

Wales! I too live in Wales.
Wales is cool.
I was going to blather at you about learning and so on, but Gwenno's already recommended everything I was going to say and more- listen to her more than me.

[Crowfeatherwolf]

Crowfeather: in 'Y Bandana', the 'y' would be pronounced 'uh' and means 'the'.
As far as I know pretty much all the signs in Wales are bilingual thanks to the act of union, although you'll find that Welsh is far more.. Well, Welsh in the north and the west (also, literary pilgrimage? You have to go to Laugharne), but the south is more Anglicanised.
Also, not entirely sure what 'ghoti' means. In Welsh, fish is 'pysgod'.

Thank you for the help; I didn't think to look for much outside of the big places like Tintern. I'll definitely go there and read some Dylan Thomas before I go.
Funny how "fish" is the word that seems to always be different in all the languages I've heard.

[Laufeysdóttir]

Eyup! My name was called and I appear it seems…. There's another Welsh girl on the forum as well, but she hasn't been active for a while, Laufeysdottir I think it was.

oh dear... my name is called and I appear, erm, a month later...

OND: hwrê! Cymraeg!! er mod i ddim yn hogan Gymraeg go iawn (Almaenes sy'di byw yng Nghymru am 11 o flynyddoedd ydw i mewn gwirionedd), fuaswn i'n hapus i gyfrannu i'r edefyn yma !

:uk: BUT: hurray, Welsh!! even though I'm not a real Welsh girl (I'm actually a German woman who lived in Wales for 11 years), I'd be happy to contribute to this thread!

I moved back to Germany with my family 5 years ago but used to live in Snowdonia, in probably the Welshiest area of Wales + my work had to do with Welsh linguistics. So I might be able to answer grammar questions, phonetics +phonology, things about language history, ... (yes, I'm a big language geek)

I'm usually a bit busy in real life so I won't be here as much as I'd like, but feel free to ask me stuff (if you're not in a hurry)
I might even put up some links later...

[Shihchuan]

I love the way Welsh is written and sounds! In fact I'm fascinated by Celtic languages in general: Irish, Welsh and Breton are all on my language wish list (and last time I counted, it has 26...... )

One question: I've heard that there are two major dialects of Welsh, the Northern and the Southern; which one would you recommend to stick to? (I know ultimately it probably depends on where I'd like to visit the most, but to be honest as of now I haven't got an idea)

And I just opened the Radio link the ParanormalAndroid provided, and a beautiful song comes up but I have no way of knowing what song it was D: it trumped even Soundhound.

The "ll" sound is called linguistically a "voiceless alveolar lateral fricative": I believe there's a sample on the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_alveolar_lateral_fricative How I do it is to first pronounce the "sh" sound, then slowly start to press the lip against the roof of the mouth until you feel the air "leak" sideways passing your cheek.

[misea]

*raises hand and waves it wildly* I WOULD LIKE TO LEARN WELSH (I would like to learn all the languages, really). Anyone got suggestions for how to go about it?

[ParanormalAndroid]

Eep, replies! (Also, seems like the Geiriadur service has been taken down, damn. It was the best dictionary online. I'll try to find a replacement, like http://geiriaduracademi.org/?lang=en)

oh dear... my name is called and I appear, erm, a month later...

OND: hwrê! Cymraeg!! er mod i ddim yn hogan Gymraeg go iawn (Almaenes sy'di byw yng Nghymru am 11 o flynyddoedd ydw i mewn gwirionedd), fuaswn i'n hapus i gyfrannu i'r edefyn yma !

:uk: BUT: hurray, Welsh!! even though I'm not a real Welsh girl (I'm actually a German woman who lived in Wales for 11 years), I'd be happy to contribute to this thread!

I moved back to Germany with my family 5 years ago but used to live in Snowdonia, in probably the Welshiest area of Wales + my work had to do with Welsh linguistics. So I might be able to answer grammar questions, phonetics +phonology, things about language history, ... (yes, I'm a big language geek)

I'm usually a bit busy in real life so I won't be here as much as I'd like, but feel free to ask me stuff (if you're not in a hurry)
I might even put up some links later...

Shwmae a croeso! A dweud y gwir, dw i'n llai rhugl na ti ,efallai felly mae'n ffantasteg i groeso ti a fy 'thread'!

I love the way Welsh is written and sounds! In fact I'm fascinated by Celtic languages in general: Irish, Welsh and Breton are all on my language wish list (and last time I counted, it has 26...... )

One question: I've heard that there are two major dialects of Welsh, the Northern and the Southern; which one would you recommend to stick to? (I know ultimately it probably depends on where I'd like to visit the most, but to be honest as of now I haven't got an idea)

And I just opened the Radio link the ParanormalAndroid provided, and a beautiful song comes up but I have no way of knowing what song it was D: it trumped even Soundhound.

The "ll" sound is called linguistically a "voiceless alveolar lateral fricative": I believe there's a sample on the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_alveolar_lateral_fricative How I do it is to first pronounce the "sh" sound, then slowly start to press the lip against the roof of the mouth until you feel the air "leak" sideways passing your cheek.

Croeso!
In reference to dialects, the two aren't particularly different in terms of language, it's more like the difference between slang in, say, London or Manchester. Living in South Wales as I do, which is very Anglicanised, the northern version is probably more 'pure' but honestly I'm not entirely sure. Given that Wales' population is heavily skewed to the south but Welsh is more widely spoken up north, it all depends on where you want to go.
The song could be anything, frankly, if I'd heard it I may have recognised it, but no guarantees even there I'm afraid.
Thanks for the linguistic additions as well! Not my strong point, frankly.

*raises hand and waves it wildly* I WOULD LIKE TO LEARN WELSH (would like to learn all the languages, really). Anyone got suggestions for how to go about it?

Hah, I can understand that mentality.
Basically, one of the best ways to learn (bar dedicated lessons), is to really listen to it. Welsh is a difficult language to teach through writing (at least the basics of pronunciation and the like), so listen to Welsh radio, perhaps find some exercises on somewhere like BBC Bitesize? In addition, the Welsh exam board, WJEC, will have past papers and materials like that that you could use. I'll try to find some more useful stuff later on.

[Laufeysdóttir]

One question: I've heard that there are two major dialects of Welsh, the Northern and the Southern; which one would you recommend to stick to? (I know ultimately it probably depends on where I'd like to visit the most, but to be honest as of now I haven't got an idea)

I'm obviously totally biased, but I'd say Northern. yes, definitely Northern. so much better!! 

But seriously, I agree it's a good idea to pick one and stick to it. You might sound a bit odd, otherwise.

There are some things to consider. Obviously, where you might be going is one of them.
Also, the chances that you will actually find people to speak Welsh to can vary quite a bit across the country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Welsh_speakers_in_the_2011_census.png
so, for example, if you're going into a shop in Caernarfon, people will usually speak to you in Welsh first - whereas in Cardiff they'll speak to you in English and you'll have no way of knowing whether they can speak Welsh or not...
I think numbers wise, there are more Welsh speakers in the South, but there are generally a lot more people there, so the Welsh speakers are still harder to find.

You might also want to listen to different types of Welsh to decide which accent sounds nicest to you.
I did a quick search for some examples, so

here's some Northern Welsh (NW) for you: (

/>... and some more... (NE): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w_W2qBJk-c&list=PLclsre0d0YBVe3f9DKp5cH9NveW9lBB21
and some Southern... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdDYMBG1g3k)

hmm. can't think of any famous people from a more central area... and I'm not that good at telling Southern* accents apart (*where I lived, anything South of Dolgellau would be considered Southern!)

ooh. new reply! (No wonder I never keep up!)

Shwmae a croeso! A dweud y gwir, dw i'n llai rhugl na ti ,efallai felly mae'n ffantasteg i groeso ti a fy 'thread'!
Croeso!

diolch!! dw i'n falch o fod yma :-D

In reference to dialects, the two aren't particularly different in terms of language, it's more like the difference between slang in, say, London or Manchester. Living in South Wales as I do, which is very Anglicanised, the northern version is probably more 'pure' but honestly I'm not entirely sure. Given that Wales' population is heavily skewed to the south but Welsh is more widely spoken up north, it all depends on where you want to go.

hmm. I'm not sure. some of the most basic verb forms and pronouns are different. plus some vocabulary and pronunciation. I personally find people with really strong Southern accents very hard to understand... but then I haven't lived there all my life, either...
As for the "purity" of the Welsh up North, weeell... I'd say most people wouldn't use posh words like I did in my previous post such as "cyfrannu i'r edefyn" in everyday speech.
I remember once getting the snack tray at the playgroup my children used to go to, so I said "dw i'n mynd i nôl yr hambwr[dd]" and they didn't know what I was talking about. So I asked what they called it, they said "trê"! (what?!)

mam bach, ma hwnna 'di troi yn bost hir... wna i ffeindio lincs nes ymlaen, fel nes i addo. hwyl am y tro i bawb. (<< pyn bach yn llai posh y tro ma  )
wow, this post got a bit long... I'll find some links later, as promised. bye for now, everyone. (< a bit less posh this time,    - can you spot the English borrowings?)

[Laufeysdóttir]

I hope this silence isn't the sound of everyone holding their breath waiting for those promised links... (I'm not doing too well with getting here more often... )

ah well, here come the links!! I hope they're useful.

grammar stuff

this is a nice summary to get you started: http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/learnwelsh/pdf/welshgrammar_allrules.pdf
the Wikipedia pages aren't bad either, if you want to get a feel for how the language works: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_grammar
(if you're interested in that sort of thing)

general

Bangor University have some useful resources for learners as well: http://www.bangor.ac.uk/cymorthcymraeg/index.php.en

music : (I'm hiding this, so this post doesn't get too long...)

Spoiler: show

I don't know about anyone else, but when I'm learning a new language, I always like to have some music in that language to listen to. I'll try and give you a bit of a selection, in terms of accent and musical style.

Catatonia - Gyda gwên: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoHww--HAGo
              - International velvet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj51zLPGJOg
 (Southern, indie rock)

Super Furry Animals - SFA Cryndod yn dy lais https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BgyP29ytXs
                           - Pam V? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H8krtuEqmU&index=10&list=PL0qF-DdNGpIhhLkSumDRccL_W6W-iD82c
                           - Anything from Mwng:  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0qF-DdNGpIhpQwf0hZIE7FNG8z45tmiT
(Northern, indie rock)

Meinir Gwilym - Pa Loches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9-BqZhZwNY&list=PL0E168091733A4BA7
                   - Siglo dy Sail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCdZcIOTsoc
                   - Dim ond yn fama: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9fCBhJeGCY

(Northern, folky pop)


Gwyneth Glyn - Y Forforwyn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJDFr_eHQB4

                   - Pa bry y deui eto? : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7f7Uy6uv3g
                   - Loer dirion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgTQWL6-PHE

(Northern, folk)


Twm Morus - Mil harddach wyt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X3Uyz-z_Wk

(Northern, folk/ traditional)


Olion Byw - Pontypridd:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAuLHtA_Yio&list=PLNETG_U_xBEBnTvXO9XIVlcYLus45g2an
              - Lisa Lân https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=632a1Mohsgw

(Southern/ Western, traditional)

I can look for more stuff, if people are interested. Also, do shout for lyrics/ translations...

[Lonkelo]

Helo bawb! Fi'n byw yng Nghanolbarth Cymru ac yn siarad Cymraeg. Ddechreuais i ddysgu'r iaith pan ddes i draw tair mlynedd yn ôl, felly sai'n rhugl, ond yn trial i fod. Mae fy nhiwtoriaid o Dde Cymru, felly mae acen eitha deheuol da fi, wi'n meddwl.
Ta beth, beth ych chi'n meddwl am salwch/pla SSSS a be fyddai wedi digwydd yng Nghymru? Does dim lot o bobl, felly alla i ddychmygu bydden nhw oroesi yn y mynyddoedd o leiaf a fallai ar rai ynysoedd. Wi'n meddwl taw daearyddiaeth Gymru sy'n gyfrifol am sicrhau bod y Gymraeg wedi goroesi tan heddi.

Hello all! I live in Mid-Wales and speak Welsh. I started learning the language when I moved over three years ago, so I'm not fluent, but I'm trying to be. My Welsh tutors are from South Wales, so I have a fairly southern accent, I think.
Anyway, what do you think about the sickness of SSSS and what would have happened in Wales? There aren't many people, so I can imagine that they would survive in the mountains at least and perhaps on some islands. I think that the geography of Wales is responsible for ensuring that the Welsh language has survived until today.

Oh, some useful links for learning Welsh:
The Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru, THE dictionary of the Welsh language is online now and completely free: http://geiriadur.ac.uk/gpc/gpc.html
For a lighter dictionary, I can recommend http://www.geiriadur.net/. It is less confusing when you look for a simple translation, works both ways, and also lists the various conjugations of prepositions when you click them

Hwyl am y tro ac mae'n flin da fi am y post hir...