Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread

[Martin]

I'm reading the Kalevala right now, and enjoying it immensely. Seeing as how I had never heard of it before reading SSSS, I figure that anyone else reading it (I know that at least one person asked a few days ago which translation to read) may be as clueless about the background of history and mythology as I am.

I'm creating this thread as a sort of FAQ of things that confuse me, and if anyone has answers or can help in anyway, or have questions of their own, join in. If there's any response, I may create a commentary page as well, in which we can discuss the story.

Questions:
1. Who is Hiisi? Every time he's mentioned seems to be in a negative connotation; everything regarding him appears to be evil and bad. But no background has been given thus far, and while I think I can piece together all that I need to understand the references to him, clarification would be nice.
2. Who is Jumala? He seems to be a version of the almighty Christian God (although focusing on his role as Creator), which is probably all I need to know, but any other info would be appreciated.
3. What is the cultural significance of the locations in the story? Lapland, Pohja, etc. I'm curious if there is any cultural baggage attached to these places that would go over the head of an uneducated American.
4. Which English translation of Kalevala would you recommend? I'm reading Kirby's translation and having a lot of fun with it, but if more people ask for the best translations, it would be nice to point them to a thread.

Thanks a lot for any help or opinions you can offer!

[Sunflower]

Hi, Martin.  I could take a crack at some of your questions, but I'll wait for authentic Finns to answer first.

Meanwhile, here are some cross-references to Kalevala posts on this forum.
1) Kalevala Day:  http://ssssforum.pcriot.com/index.php?topic=124.msg21806#msg21806

2) FinnishViking is one of our Finnish (naturally) members with a deep interest in his national mythology and folklore:  http://ssssforum.pcriot.com/index.php?topic=131.msg17270#msg17270

3) Haverberg shares helpful links: http://ssssforum.pcriot.com/index.php?topic=224.msg13762#msg13762

4) Pessi is *very* knowledgeable about the Kalevala:  http://ssssforum.pcriot.com/index.php?topic=54.msg1833#msg1833

5) And about hiisi (the word is used about old, pre-Christian holy places and the spirits that inhabited them, which is why after Christianization "hiisi" became the word for *evil* spirits):
http://ssssforum.pcriot.com/index.php?topic=54.msg25277#msg25277

6) Hiisi and the Rash:  http://ssssforum.pcriot.com/index.php?topic=18.msg18405#msg18405

Hope this helps!

[Pessi]

1. Who is Hiisi?

Hiisi meant originally a sacred place, usually a burial place. It later came to mean also the haltija, "owner/protector spirit", of a hiisi place. The negative connotations are due to christian propaganda which ultimately turned hiisi into a synonym of Satan.

Taivaannaula, a society riviving our ethnic religion and old world view, has declared march 28th the official Hiisi Day on which they remind people of the old sacred places and arrange expeditions to some of them.

2. Who is Jumala?

Jumala is nowadays the name we use for the Christian God, written with small j it means any god. Originally Jumala seems to have been a deity of sky/heaven (the Finnish word "taivas" means both), a kind of later replacement of Ukko. My guess is that when christianity started spreading here in the end of 10th century Jumala was the main deity at least on the west coast and therefore got kind of fused with the christian "main god". (Funny fact: "Perkele", another sky/thunder god, got fused with devil )

3. What is the cultural significance of the locations in the story?

Lapland, Lappi, is a little bit exotic place even on today's terms: the nature is quite different from rest of the country and there live the sami people who speak their own language and have their own culture. I'd say it was even more so in the past, though the divide between "lappalainen", Lappish (a name for the sami people nowadays considered a somewhat impolite), and other people was still in the 18th century defined more on terms of livelihood than actual culture or living area. The marking "living as a Lapp" on cencus meant simply someone living by hunting, fishing and gathering, without a permanent living place or aggricultural work.

Pohja/Pohjola is an interesting place since in Kalevala it has gotten quite much mixed up with Tuonela, the place of the dead. This may be due to the fact that our ancestors seemed to think that Tuonela is in the north, "pohjoinen/pohjola" (in an old cemetery around a place where there once stood an early church the deceased people's religions can quite much be deduced from the way the graves are directed: the christians - who have no grave goods - are buried with their feet towards east, while the pagans - with their grave goods - have their feet towards north), so perhaps even for them the difference between Pohjola and Tuonela wasn't precise. The mixup may however have been made by Elias Lönnrot who liked to modify and connect the old poems he'd gathered to make Kalevala the kind of national epic he thought it should be.

4. Which English translation of Kalevala would you recommend?

Can't say, I've never read it in English


Edit: whoops, took me so long to write this in among my actual work that Sunflower had already given an answer. I hope this message is useful anyway =)

[starfallz]

Thank you for starting this thread! I have questions, but I need to go back to reading to remember what they are. I've been reading the Bosley translation. I got started on Crawford translation but wanted to pitch it through the window with how the Finnish names were written (Wainamoinen instead of Väinämöinen, for example), as well as seeming to be a bad OCR. I'm currently at the point of Ilmarinen forging the Sampo.

Oh I remembered a few of my questions.

1. With the adornments of Aino, it mentions (forgive, I just know the English):
"I wrenched the cross from my breast
the beads I shook from my neck
and the blue threads from my eyes
and the red threads off my head
cast them on the ground for the
ground's sake"

What are the threads mentioned? Scarves? Ribbons?
I'm curious about what the other decorations are too, but those ones I was most curious about.

2. With numbering things, there always seems to be a progression. Is there a reason for that or just a poetic way?

"Early in the morning she
looked out at the headland's tip:
three maids at the headland's tip
there were, bathing in the sea!
The maid Aino would be fourth
and the slip of a girl fifth!"

The three, four, five there.

3. Copper seems to be a very prominent metal. Gold and silver are of generally understood, from my experience, to be valuable metals. Is copper also important in Finland?

[Laufey]

Can't say I know of the blue threads, but a maiden typically wears a red silk ribbon around her head. A married woman would cover her hair instead.

[Pessi]

Laufey is right. Many women's Finnish national costumes still have a "maiden version" and a "wife version", in other words the costume can be worn with either a ribbon or säppäli (a head band decorated with metal bits) as a maiden would have worn it or with a veil, tanu, sorokka/harakka or tykkimyssy (depending on the area the costume represents) as a married woman would have worn it. The ribbons around the head and uncovered hair were strong symbols of unmarried status in the past times, many old girl's songs mention them and state that exchanging them for the plait and veil of a married woman is not as great as young girls tend to think.

I can't say I've paid much attention to numbers in Kalevala exept that three seems to be the "magic number" even there. Many things come in threes, like the rivers Aino's mother cries after she has died, the rapids in those rivers, the islets in the rapids, the trees on the islets and the cuckoos on the trees. (That particular piece of translation is btw quite funny imo. The original says "vitsan varpa viientenä", the twig of a thin, supple branch as the fifth.)

Copper may have been seen as important since it is easily found in our own ground so there was enough material for all kinds of copper things, but the viking era people (where Kalevala's stories are mostly situated) used lots of silver jewelry as well. Gold was much rarer as far as I know.

[Sunflower]

Oh I remembered a few of my questions.

2. With numbering things, there always seems to be a progression. Is there a reason for that or just a poetic way?

"Early in the morning she
looked out at the headland's tip:
three maids at the headland's tip
there were, bathing in the sea!
The maid Aino would be fourth
and the slip of a girl fifth!"

The three, four, five there.

The numerical progression ("x, then x+1," or even "x=x+1") is common to a lot of ancient poetical forms, including the Old Testament and parallel sources from elsewhere in the Middle East, dating back up to 3,000 years ago. 
I doubt the Kalevala is *related* (although the runo-singers could conceivably have been *influenced* by Biblical rhetoric in the 800-odd years since Christianity came to Finland).  More likely it's just parallel evolution.

An example of the three-four progression is in Proverbs 30:18:
There be three things which are too wonderful for me,
yea, four which I know not.
(Incredibly thorough documentation of this x/x+1 pattern is in this scholarly article.)

Virgil does this too, in the Aeneid, line 95 (referring to the Trojans who had died defending their city):

O terque quaterque beati!
O three and four times blessed!

(This is what I was studying when I could have been learning something useful, like forensic accounting...  )

[FinnishViking]

Well looks like Pessi already arrived to answer the questions before i could arrive.

Still i'll throw some suggestions around and while you might not be intrested in this since you are already reading the proper story
the "Canine Kalevala" is quite a good book for those who might not be intrested in reading hefty amounts of poetry while still wanting to
experience the overall story of it. It is a childrens book, but if even i have found enjoyment in it in my angsty teenage years i think any
adult might enjoy it and it is a good stepping stone to get intrested in the story so much to read the real deal.

Still like Pessi i have no knowledge over the translations and while i did a quick goodle search it seems that a lot of the poetry is butchered in the translation and yeah can't recomend anything there.

[JoB]

the "Canine Kalevala" is quite a good book

... wait, does that mean that Hannus quip on this page is actually a reference to it?

[FinnishViking]

... wait, does that mean that Hannus quip on this page is actually a reference to it?

Oh i must have missed that one too.

Well if Minna was from anywhere else than Finland i could see that being a coincidence.

But she is from Finland so i think so... 

[Martin]

Thanks for all the replies so far, everyone! It helps a lot to have some background.

Thank you for starting this thread! I have questions, but I need to go back to reading to remember what they are. I've been reading the Bosley translation. I got started on Crawford translation but wanted to pitch it through the window with how the Finnish names were written (Wainamoinen instead of Väinämöinen, for example), as well as seeming to be a bad OCR. I'm currently at the point of Ilmarinen forging the Sampo.

I'm liking Kirby's translation pretty well. Maybe we can do a side-by-side comparison of certain moments, see how they stack up. I'm at the same point as you, starting Runo X, which, according to the notes, is "The Forging of the Sampo."

[Vafhudr]

Laufey is right. Many women's Finnish national costumes still have a "maiden version" and a "wife version", in other words the costume can be worn with either a ribbon or säppäli (a head band decorated with metal bits) as a maiden would have worn it or with a veil, tanu, sorokka/harakka or tykkimyssy (depending on the area the costume represents) as a married woman would have worn it. The ribbons around the head and uncovered hair were strong symbols of unmarried status in the past times, many old girl's songs mention them and state that exchanging them for the plait and veil of a married woman is not as great as young girls tend to think.

I can't say I've paid much attention to numbers in Kalevala exept that three seems to be the "magic number" even there. Many things come in threes, like the rivers Aino's mother cries after she has died, the rapids in those rivers, the islets in the rapids, the trees on the islets and the cuckoos on the trees. (That particular piece of translation is btw quite funny imo. The original says "vitsan varpa viientenä", the twig of a thin, supple branch as the fifth.)

Copper may have been seen as important since it is easily found in our own ground so there was enough material for all kinds of copper things, but the viking era people (where Kalevala's stories are mostly situated) used lots of silver jewelry as well. Gold was much rarer as far as I know.

The numerical progression ("x, then x+1," or even "x=x+1") is common to a lot of ancient poetical forms, including the Old Testament and parallel sources from elsewhere in the Middle East, dating back up to 3,000 years ago. 
I doubt the Kalevala is *related* (although the runo-singers could conceivably have been *influenced* by Biblical rhetoric in the 800-odd years since Christianity came to Finland).  More likely it's just parallel evolution.

An example of the three-four progression is in Proverbs 30:18:
There be three things which are too wonderful for me,
yea, four which I know not.
(Incredibly thorough documentation of this x/x+1 pattern is in this scholarly article.)

Virgil does this too, in the Aeneid, line 95 (referring to the Trojans who had died defending their city):

O terque quaterque beati!
O three and four times blessed!

(This is what I was studying when I could have been learning something useful, like forensic accounting...  )

On the topic of numbers - that form has a lot to do with how mathematic was done before the introduction of the arabic-vedic mathematic system in the West.

I am not familiar with the development of Semitic mathematics, or even that familiar with Greek and Roman math, but what I know is that there is system, all things considered, was horrendous for arithmetic - but other hand, beyond basic calculations, that was not really a big deal for them. Their interest, starting with the Babylonians, lied in geometry. I remember reading Herodotus and Greek and the word for 1000 is literally myriad - we don't actually know if he means a thousand, since in Greek the closer translation is more like "a lot" or "a shit-ton" - there was a myriad of Persians/there was a shit-ton of Persians.

I mean, you can even observed in the way roman numeral work. We don't have four, but rather IV, or 1 before 5, or 5 - 1. 6 is likewise 5+1 or 1+5. This endures even today in some languages, like in French, for instance. When we say 90, the way we express it in words is "quatre-vingt-dix" or "4-20-10" or 4x20+10" or four score twenty and ten.   

As for things coming in three - well, I am not very familiar with the Kalevala, but if it was something akin to folk poetry, it was likely that it was memorized by bards or singers and the common man. Repetition as well as post-mark numbers help in memorization. It's often a mnemonic technique - a character, a location, a certain item is remembered by assigning certain epithet or recurring number schemes to help with recall.

[starfallz]

Thanks for all the replies so far, everyone! It helps a lot to have some background.

I'm liking Kirby's translation pretty well. Maybe we can do a side-by-side comparison of certain moments, see how they stack up. I'm at the same point as you, starting Runo X, which, according to the notes, is "The Forging of the Sampo."

If you'd like to compare, that would be great! I can pull up both the Crawford and the Bosley if you like.

The forward of the Bosley version states that a lot of the translations would pad out the half-lines that occur at some points and make them "fit" the rule of the meter, but this version preserves them. The forward also said the Crawford was a translation of the German translation, so I'm even more annoyed with it.

I'm now at Runo 14, Elk, Horse, Swan.

[starfallz]

Okay, I was curious and I pulled together the section I happened to be at today in the Bosley, Kirby, and Crawford editions. The story seems about the same, but the details vary, as well as the spirit of the translation. I'm going to put them in order of how old they are.

1888 - Crawford, via Franz Anton Schiefner's translation

From Rune XVIII. The Rival Suitors

To the blacksmith’s home and smithy,
Here she found the hero-artist,
Forging out a bench of iron,
And adorning it with silver.
Soot lay thick upon his forehead,
Soot and coal upon his shoulders.
On the threshold speaks Annikki,
These the words his sister uses:
“Ilmarinen, dearest brother,
Thou eternal artist-forger,
Forge me now a loom of silver,
Golden rings to grace my fingers,
Forge me gold and silver ear-rings,
Six or seven golden girdles,
Golden crosslets for my bosom,
For my head forge golden trinkets,
And I’ll tell a tale surprising,
Tell a story that concerns thee
Truthfully I’ll tell the story.”
Then the blacksmith Ilmarinen
Spake and these the words he uttered:
“If thou’t tell the tale sincerely,
I will forge the loom of silver,
Golden rings to grace thy fingers,
Forge thee gold and silver ear-rings,
Six or seven golden girdles,
Golden crosslets for thy bosom,
For thy head forge golden trinkets;
But if thou shouldst tell me falsely,
I shall break they beauteous jewels,
Break thine ornaments in pieces,
Hurl them to the fire and furnace,
Never forge the other trinkets."

1907 - Kirby

From Runo XVIII. - Väinämöinen and Ilmarinen Travel to Pohjola

There she found smith Ilmarinen,
He the great primeval craftsman.
And he forged a bench of iron,
And adorned it all with silver.
Cubit-high his head was sooted,
On his shoulders ash by fathoms. (220)

Annikki the door then entered,
And she spoke the words which follow:
“Smith and brother Ilmarinen,
Thou the great primeval craftsman,
Forge me now a weaver’s shuttle,
Pretty rings to deck my fingers,
Golden earrings, two or three pairs,
Five or six linked girdles make me,
For most weighty truth I’ll tell you,
All the truth without evasion.” (230)

Said the smith, said Ilmarinen,
“If you tell me news important,
Then a shuttle will I forge you,
Pretty rings to deck your fingers,
And a cross upon your bosom,
And the finest head-dress forge you.
If the words you speak are evil,
All your ornaments I’ll shatter,
Tear them off to feed the furnace,
And beneath the forge will thrust them.” (240)

1989 - Bosley

From 18, the Rivals

’Twas the smith Ilmarinen
the everlasting craftsman
was forging an iron bench
one of silver was working
an ell of dust on his head
a fathom of coal on his shoulders.
Annikki stepped to the door
uttered a word and spoke thus:
‘Brother, smith Ilmarinen
O everlasting craftsman:
forge me a little shuttle
   forge me some fine rings
two or three pairs of earrings
   five or six belt chains
   and I’ll tell the truth
without lying or fooling!”

The smith Ilmarinen said
   ‘If you tell good news
I will forge you a shuttle
   I’ll forge some fine rings
I’ll forge a cross for your breasts
   your ringlets I’ll mend;
   if you tell bad news
I will smash your old ones too
thrust them from you in the fire
shove them down into my forge.'

I found a copy of the Kalevala in Finnish online and I *think* this is the appropriate passage:

Tuo oli seppo Ilmarinen, takoja iän-ikuinen,
takoi rautaista rahia, hope'ista huolitteli,
kyynärä kyventä päässä, syli syttä hartioilla.

Astui Annikki ovelle, sanan virkkoi, noin nimesi:
"Veli, seppo Ilmarinen, takoja iän-ikuinen!
Taos mulle sukkulainen, tao sormukset soreat,
kahet, kolmet korvakullat, viiet, kuuet vyöllisvitjat,
niin sanon toet totiset, valehettomat, vakaiset!"

Sanoi seppo Ilmarinen: "Kun sanot hyvät sanomat,
taon sulle sukkulaisen, taon sormukset soreat,
taon ristin rinnoillesi, päällispankasi parannan;
sanonet pahat sanomat, rikki murran muinaisetki,
tungen päältäsi tulehen, alle ahjoni ajelen."

(Google Translate seems to agree, although it makes a fine mess out of it.)

[Martin]

I'm on Runo XV right now, but I *should* get to that point in a couple of days. I'll post that section once I get there.

And hey! You're my nearest neighbor on the fandom map! *Waves from Winchester, VA*