Author Topic: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread  (Read 19729 times)

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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2015, 09:59:10 AM »
Hahah, I started posting when this discussion was still in the old thread, saw it was moved, and now feel a lot less guilty about posting :)

Anyway, all this discussion about viking humour reminded me of the Poetic Edda and some of the gold therein:
Quote
Shut up, Freyja, you're riddled with
wickedness, a real witch. The giggling
gods walked in on you riding your own
brother, Freyja, and then you farted
or soon after
Quote
Shut up, Njord, these gods sent you
East as a hostage. Hymir's
daugters thought you were a toilet,
and pissed in your mouth
(Both Loki quotes)

There is good reason why these sagas have lasted so long  ;D (basically that they are amazing) and if the Icelanders had these guys watching over them then no wonder they survived past the end of the world :P
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Yuuago

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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2015, 01:39:04 PM »
Alright. At special request from someone I won't say who  ;) we now have a thread to discuss saga and kalevala stuff to our heart's content.

I'm surprised that we didn't have a thread for this aaaages ago.

...Perhaps I should start my Kalevala re-re-read sooner than I expected....

Back on the actual subject, if anyone has a preferred English translation, throw me your suggestions. I've only read Bosley, which is mostly fine, but I have issues with it.
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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2015, 02:05:51 PM »
Anyway, all this discussion about viking humour reminded me of the Poetic Edda and some of the gold therein:or soon after(Both Loki quotes)

Good old Lokasenna. Loki gets pretty nasty with his insults when he's on a bad mood, it seems (and was totally misusing the fact that he and Óðinn were blood brothers)... btw accordng to one saga there's this guy who's part giant, part troll and part human who actually beats up Þór once. He's a protector of Snæfellsnes and, for some reason, felting, so I guess Iceland's OK under his watch. :D

Back on the actual subject, if anyone has a preferred English translation, throw me your suggestions. I've only read Bosley, which is mostly fine, but I have issues with it.

Man, I'd help if I could but I have zero experience on translated works. Especially since trad Finnish poetry is almost impossible to translate with all poetry rules included. :-\
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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2015, 02:06:33 PM »
Back on the actual subject, if anyone has a preferred English translation, throw me your suggestions. I've only read Bosley, which is mostly fine, but I have issues with it.

I think that's the version sat on my shelf that I've been meaning to finish for about four months now. Out of curiosity, what were the issues you had with it?
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Yuuago

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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2015, 02:10:27 PM »
btw accordng to one saga there's this guy who's part giant, part troll and part human who actually beats up Þór once. He's a protector of Snæfellsnes and, for some reason, felting, so I guess Iceland's OK under his watch. :D

... Felting? Haha, what. There must be some background there. But it's probably lost to time.

Man, I'd help if I could but I have zero experience on translated works. Especially since trad Finnish poetry is almost impossible to translate with all poetry rules included. :-\

Haa, it's okay. Understandable that it would be difficult to translate with the format kept intact. That isn't actually something I'm so picky about fortunately (as long as it's not translated into prose, ugh, why would one even-) otherwise pretty much any translation would make me want to tear my hair out. And I am not about to try to learn Finnish just so that I can read this thing, no.

I think that's the version sat on my shelf that I've been meaning to finish for about four months now. Out of curiosity, what were the issues you had with it?

The thing that bothered me the most is that it took some liberties with names. I found that a lot of the names for god-figures were written as euphemisms in the translation. And place-names were translated as euphemisms as well. It isn't... necessarily a bad thing, per se, but the first time I read this version several years ago, there were a lot of things I didn't understand, so when I read someone calling on "Old man, chief god", I thought it meant the Christian god, not Ukko (which would be the name in the original text) because that's what that sort of euphemism implied to me, who was stepping into the mythology without much prior exposure. When I re-read it recently, I understood better. But the first time around, no.

So, essentially - it's a translation that can be misleading if you don't know what you're getting into.

Also, if you're picky about things like metre, it doesn't attempt to follow Kalevala metre; it uses its own rhythm. Which can be a dealbreaker for some people, but I didn't mind.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2015, 02:15:45 PM by Yuuago »
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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2015, 02:15:15 PM »
And I am not about to try to learn Finnish just so that I can read this thing, no.

That's what JRR Tolkein did
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Yuuago

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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2015, 02:16:04 PM »
That's what JRR Tolkein did

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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2015, 02:18:00 PM »
Do I look like Tolkien to you? '3'

No, you look like Lalli to me. Who is already fluent in finnish.
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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2015, 02:30:22 PM »
And I am not about to try to learn Finnish just so that I can read this thing, no.
That's what JRR Tolkein did

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Not gonna lie: I haven't read it yet because I'm still holding out for the day I don't need a translation.
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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2015, 05:50:45 PM »
So I got a book full of runo spells and it came with a bookmark.

On the back of the bookmark? A genuine freaking runo spell for calling your luonto. (Yes, I had to stop and relearn to breathe for a second there. You know you're an SSSS addict when...)

I'll copy it here for those interested.

Luontoani nostattelen,
haastattelen haltiata;
Nouse, luontoni, lovesta,
haon alta, haltiani,
kiven alta, auttajani,
Sammalista, saattajani;
Tule, kalma kauhistava,
Tule tuskissa kovissa
Tuekseni, turvakseni,
Varakseni, voimakseni,
Näille töille tehtäville,
Vammoille vaottaville!


I realise leaving this here without a translation is teasing but I'll entrust that to people who are more capable with words than I am >.<
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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2015, 09:15:57 PM »
That's what JRR Tolkein did
Yeah, and then he had a language hanging around that ended up being the basis for an Elvish dialect. In case you were curious, I'm here to confirm that Tolkien was a MASSIVE nerd.
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Laufey

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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #41 on: December 26, 2015, 11:43:49 AM »
Well then! I figured this would be just the place for the finished pages of my new colouring book, all with some info on the creature itself of course.



Käreitär, the emuu, or mother or all foxes. I painted her somewhat garishly with the idea in mind that it's a fox that draws the aurora on the sky, therefore she needs some pigments for her palette. Emuu just means first mother/the origin of a certain thing, so animals each had their emuu that was prayed to for f.ex. good hunting luck: you needed the fox mother's acceptance before you could kill a fox, for instance.



Hiiden hirvi, the Moose of Hiisi. Not a real animal but made of wood (and its eyes were made of water flowers, most typically a water lily or a yellow pond-lily) by small, evil creatures. One of the heroes of Kalevala, Lemminkäinen, was given the task of hunting down a moose like this so he could win over the girl he wanted to marry. He managed to catch it and tie it down, but then he went and said aloud that he'd take the pelt of the moose and sleep on it with his new wife, which annoyed the moose so much it kicked itself free and ran away.



Tuonen joutsen, the Swan of Tuonela land of the dead. Swans were holy birds that were believed to be able to cross between this world and both the worlds above (= air) and below (= water, death).



Satasilmä käärme, the hundred-eyed snake of Pohjola that guarded the gate of Louhi's house. Might actually be borrowed from Scandinavian mythology, just like Louhi/Laufey herself.
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ButterflyWings

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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #42 on: December 26, 2015, 01:29:46 PM »
So I got a book full of runo spells and it came with a bookmark.

On the back of the bookmark? A genuine freaking runo spell for calling your luonto. (Yes, I had to stop and relearn to breathe for a second there. You know you're an SSSS addict when...)

I'll copy it here for those interested.

Luontoani nostattelen,
haastattelen haltiata;
Nouse, luontoni, lovesta,
haon alta, haltiani,
kiven alta, auttajani,
Sammalista, saattajani;
Tule, kalma kauhistava,
Tule tuskissa kovissa
Tuekseni, turvakseni,
Varakseni, voimakseni,
Näille töille tehtäville,
Vammoille vaottaville!


I realise leaving this here without a translation is teasing but I'll entrust that to people who are more capable with words than I am >.<

Here's a rough translation

Lifting up my nature
challenging a spirit
Arise my nature from the cleft
Under the log, my spirit
Under the rock, my aide
From the moss, my guide
Come, Death terrifying
Come when the pain is great
To my safety, to succor me
To my aide, to empower me
For these deeds to be done
For the wounds to be furrowed
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Laufey

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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2015, 02:04:38 PM »
A few notes on that spell:

I think it's not a complete one. It's got a typical beginning for a luonto-spell, then it feels like something is missing and there's this huge leap to announce the magic-weaver is rising their luonto for a certain task. A luonto-spell is normally really long as the function is to whip the witch into frenzy or a trance-like state, usually frenzy (some notes say that a powerful witch could walk up a wall and stand on the ceiling when he was done), and only after that come other spells for whatever reason the extra oomph is needed for.

Kalma is one of the daughters of Death and refers to a particular type of dying: Kalma takes those who are deadly ill (the other two daughters are Tuoni for those who die of old age and Surma for those who die a violent death). Therefore the other half of the poem sounds like luonto is being called to aid in healing something so severe that it may well be impossible to heal.
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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #44 on: December 26, 2015, 05:07:39 PM »
It would be very interesting to see the whole spell. You're right, Laufey, it doesn't feel 'whole'. A spell is a structure as much as it is a process, and this one feels insubstantial (vocabulary, gggghh). Celtic and Australian magic are more familiar to me than Finnish, but if I were constructing this it would have more cycling back on itself and building in gradual increments. I'd be looking for the same 'feel' as a bird riding an updraft or a potter building a cup out of a spiral of clay.

And if I were doing it I'd build in more limitations. Call me an overcautious old fuddy-duddy, but limitations are good if one wants to survive one's working. If whoever wrote it down transcribed a verbal-tradition spell they may simply have left out what they thought of as unneccesary repetition, but those slightly-varied repetitions are as needful as the many courses of bricks in a wall.

And I wonder what was the luonto being evoked. Adder, maybe?
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