Finnish learning thread!

[Pessi]

In English "can" and "be able to" have pretty much the same meaning, so I am still a bit confused. Do they mean the same in Finnish, too? Or are they used in different situations?
Sorry... I get confused really easily...

They are pretty much the same in Finnish too. The only difference I see is that whether you "voit" to do something may depend on other people's permission, whether you "pystyt" to do something is up to your own resources. Isn't thst the same in English? You may ask someone "can I take this book" but you wouldn't ask them "am I able to take this book" because that's something you self know best.

And yes, "can" in sense of preserving things is indeed "tölkittää", literally to put in tölkki = a can.

[Sunflower]

They are pretty much the same in Finnish too. The only difference I see is that whether you "voit" to do something may depend on other people's permission, whether you "pystyt" to do something is up to your own resources. Isn't that the same in English? You may ask someone "can I take this book" but you wouldn't ask them "am I able to take this book" because that's something you yourself know best.

Actually, that's more the distinction between "can" and "may" -- "can" implying literal, physical capability but "may" implying permission.
"Mom, can I have a cookie?"
"You mean, 'May I have a cookie?'"

Or in SSSS terms, maybe Reynir *can* help (or "is able to help" -- it's practically synonymous) -- but he'd better ask Tuuri if he *may* help her. 

The confusing thing is that "may" is also an auxiliary verb indicating a hypothetical present or future state.  When David Byrne sings, "You may find yourself in another part of the world," he's not granting permission but speculating about the future. 

[Auleliel]

They are pretty much the same in Finnish too. The only difference I see is that whether you "voit" to do something may depend on other people's permission, whether you "pystyt" to do something is up to your own resources. Isn't thst the same in English? You may ask someone "can I take this book" but you wouldn't ask them "am I able to take this book" because that's something you self know best.

And yes, "can" in sense of preserving things is indeed "tölkittää", literally to put in tölkki = a can.

It is true that for permission, can is more common than be able to, but I know of situations when people have used be able to when asking for permission to indicate their hesitation to ask about that permission.
And can can be used in so many situations that it is almost useless when making distinctions. 
But permission vs ability is a very helpful way to explain the difference for voida vs pystyä. I think I get it now.
Kiitos.

[Pessi]

The confusing thing is that "may" is also an auxiliary verb indicating a hypothetical present or future state.  When David Byrne sings, "You may find yourself in another part of the world," he's not granting permission but speculating about the future.

Languages They never work similarly.

In Finnish people actually ask for permission more with the verb "saada", to get, than "voida", for the same reason as in English "may" is preferred to "can": voida can also be understood to mean an ability to do something rather than having a permission to do so. "Saanko ottaa tämän kirjan" = do I get to take this book. But in army we were tought that soldiers never get anything, they only can ("armeijassa ei saada, armeijassa voidaan"), so when asking for something we had to use "voida". I don't know why, I guess it's just one of those "you can do things in two ways, the smart way or the army way" things.

On the other hand the verb used for something that may happen is "saattaa" (which is totally homonymoys to the verb that means "to escort/to accompany", but has a different meaning). Saattaa olla = may be.

[Ann Marie]

Norwegian Sigrun using that wording all the time while the Finns just silently make it proper grammar for themselves sounds about right.

That is frighteningly plausible. 


Ok, this construction:  I/he/she/you/they/we should/have to do a thing.  They are using Minun/sinun/hänen etc täytyy/pitaisi antaa coffee/beer/wine/whatever minulle/hänelle/sinulle etc.  Except the object(I think? what is grammar) ending varies: kahvi, kahviä, or kahvin.  Why?

Suomeni on vielä kova huono.  Tiedän minun täytyy kirjoitaa ennemän, mutta minulle ei ole riitävä aika.

[Cancvas]

Also, when asking "Could I have this?", is about "Voinko saada tämän?"

Also, Ann Marie your "Suomi on eniten paras kieli." would be quite correctly translated with "most best", as more conventional expression would have been "Suomi on kaikkein paras kieli."

-C

[starfallz]

I ran across this online (along with a funny graphic), which might be helpful?

Voida = To be able to / have the possibility or opportunity to
Saada = to be allowed to / to get or receive
Osata = to know how to
Pystyä / kyetä = very similar to voida. To be physically able to

[Pessi]

Ok, this construction:  I/he/she/you/they/we should/have to do a thing.  They are using Minun/sinun/hänen etc täytyy/pitaisi antaa coffee/beer/wine/whatever minulle/hänelle/sinulle etc.  Except the object(I think? what is grammar) ending varies: kahvi, kahviä, or kahvin.  Why?

There's a difference in the meaning.

"Minun pitäisi antaa hänelle kahvi" means (at least to me) "I should give her/him the coffee" aka a certain, specified coffee, like a cup of coffee poured especially for that person. It could also mean "I should give her/him the coffee package".

"Minun pitäisi antaa hänelle kahvia" means "I should give her/him (some) coffee" aka just some unspecified coffee that may not even have been cooked yet.

"Minun pitäisi antaa hänelle kahvin" is wrong, the -n form just doesn't go with conditional modus. But it's right if you say say "Annan hänelle kahvin", "I give her/him the coffee" (and saying "annan hänelle kahvi" is wrong).

Also, when asking "Could I have this?", is about "Voinko saada tämän?"

Isn't it rather "Voisinko saada tämän", a conditional?

starfallz, that's a good list.

[Cancvas]

(Maybe I should try to learn to quote, but not do pyramids.)
(Ehkä minun pitäisi opetella tekemään lainaukset, mutta ei pyramideja.)

Pessi
"Voisinko" is likely formally correct, but I don't really see difference in meaning compared to "Voinko". Maybe just slight tone difference, with "voisinko" expressing more need for target of request. Could also be dialect issue.

-C

[Pessi]

Pessi
"Voisinko" is likely formally correct, but I don't really see difference in meaning compared to "Voinko". Maybe just slight tone difference, with "voisinko" expressing more need for target of request. Could also be dialect issue.

It's not a dialect issue, it's a purely grammatical issue concerning the modus of the word. "Voinko" is indicative, "voisinko" conditional. "Voinko" = can I, "voisinko" = could I.

[Bobriha]

Niin, tänään minulla oli ikävä työssä ja minä kirjoitin suomeksi runon (yeah, poor neglected responsibilities), jossa ei kuitenkaan mitään vastaa oman elämäni. Antakaa se olla runoa jokusta epäkirjoitattavasta jutusta .

Älä muista nimeni,
älä muista sekä kasini, että jalkani,
koska aion unohtaa niiden itse,
koska aion tehdä minulle
uudet kadet, jalat ja nimen.
Jos tulet minulle, kun tapaamme taas,
siis tiedän, että sinä rakastat minua.

Älä pyydä minua muistamaan sinut,
älä kirjoita kämmenelläni
sinun puhelimesi, nimesi, osoitteesi.
Jos en juoksen pois sinusta, kun tapaamme taas,
Tiedät sitten, että rakastan sinua.

(Oikaisut olisivat hyviä)

[Pessi]

:finland: Mainio runo, pidän siitä. Jos todella haluat oikaisuja, niin kieliopillisesti korrekti versio olisi suunnilleen tällainen:

:uk: A fine poem, I like it. If you really want corrections, grammatically correct version would be approximately like this:

Älä muista nimeäni,
älä muista kasiäni tai jalkojani,
koska aion unohtaa ne itse,
koska aion tehdä itselleni
uudet kädet, jalat ja nimen.
Jos tulet luokseni ["to me", as I think you meant?], kun tapaamme taas,
tiedän, että sinä rakastat minua.

Älä pyydä minua muistamaan sinua,
älä kirjoita kämmenelleni
sinun puhelinnumeroasi, nimeäsi, osoitettasi.
Jos en juokse pois luotasi, kun tapaamme taas,
tiedät sitten, että rakastan sinua.

:finland: Minun mielestäni runo on täysin ymmärrettävä sellaisenaankin, joten oikaisujen tarve on mielestäni vähän kyseenalainen. Runoissa kun ei tarvitse kieliopista niin kauheasti välittää.

:uk: In my opinion the poem is perfectly comprehensible as it is, so the need for correction is imo questionable. After all you don't need to care about grammar so terribly with poems.

[Bobriha]

No ennen, kuin rikkoa sääntöjä, pitää osata ne . Ja minä kyllä pidän niistä “luokseni”:sta ja “luotasi”:sta.
Lisäksi, minä en ymmärtänyt  posessiivisuffikseja, joita ovat partitiivin kanssa, kiitos esimerkkeista!

[viola]

A question to those who are knowledgeable about Finnish: How do you say please in Finnish? Is there a word for please in Finnish? (there is no word for please in Icelandic so I was wondering)

The context would be a sentence like: 'Can you please help me with this?' Or 'Please pass me that'.

[Laufey]

A question to those who are knowledgeable about Finnish: How do you say please in Finnish? Is there a word for please in Finnish? (there is no word for please in Icelandic so I was wondering)

The context would be a sentence like: 'Can you please help me with this?' Or 'Please pass me that'.

There's no one word for please in Finnish, and the usual phrase "ole hyvä" (lit. transl. "be good") may even come across badly if used in normal speech since it may sound overtly polite/condescending. Finns use conditional instead to mark politeness in requests, so:

Can you help me with this? = Autatko minua tässä/voitko auttaa minua tässä?
Can you please help me with this? = Auttaisitko minua tässä? (conditional)

Pass me that. = Ojenna minulle tuo.
Please pass me that. = Ojentaisitko minulle tuon? (conditional)

Icelandic works with the same idea by the way ("Geturðu/gætirðu hjálpað mér... geturðu/gætirðu réttað mér..."), and similarly you can use both the polite and the less polite versions in daily speech, especially when talking to people you know. Politeness is not too hard in Finnish as long as you remember to avoid trying to be polite.

Uh, it made more sense when I was thinking of it than when I wrote it down...