Poll

What do you think the state of things is beyond Scandinavia?

More of the Silent World: Trolls, beasts and giants everywhere
7 (16.7%)
A few groups of humans, but mostly wilderness
14 (33.3%)
USA and other superpowers are relatively intact
0 (0%)
Scorched Earth: nothing, not even grosslings, is alive
0 (0%)
Plenty of places like Scandinavia, but isolated
21 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 37

Voting closed: July 03, 2015, 03:28:37 PM

Author Topic: Survivor communities outside the known world  (Read 257703 times)

Róisín

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #855 on: September 25, 2015, 02:45:40 AM »
In the systems around here, there's one guy who uses store-bought nutrient pellets for the veges, and another who uses a hydroponic liquid fertiliser. The others use weed tea, worm juice, seaweed concentrate or some combination thereof on the veges, and whatever comes from the fish. If you overnourish the crops, the return water isn't clean enough for the fish, so it's a bit of a balancing act. Most of them seem to find that light frequent fertilising with natural nutrients (worm juice etc) works best, and keeping the fish well fed but not over fed, so the water doesn't fill up with spoiled food and fish droppings. You have the constant input of whatever you are feeding the fish.
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urbicande

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #856 on: September 25, 2015, 09:41:21 AM »
Don't you need some special nutrient solution to keep it running though? Nutrients would still be removed from the system by harvesting fish and edible greens. I had a friend with an aeroponic system who had to add store-bought nutrients constantly to the water.

Most farms require tending.  I can't see that this would be any different.
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Róisín

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #857 on: September 25, 2015, 10:16:11 AM »
Farms do indeed require tending, some quite intensive (dairy, salad vegetables) even if not all the time. Others (quandongs, sandalwood, timber trees) might only need to be checked every few weeks for storm damage or pests. Most farms fall somewhere in between. Some thing like those vege-and-fish setups, need a lot of monitoring, but you get a lot better results from small frequent inputs than from big heavy ones. But any sort of farming needs attention, even if only to check that nothing needs doing just at the moment, because the day you don't bother WILL be the day something goes catastrophically wrong. Ask any of the several farmers in the fandom!
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Jenny Islander

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #858 on: October 15, 2015, 12:05:47 PM »
I saw Alaska mentioned a few times, and having lived here for a few years feel like sharing a few things about Alaska.

Alaska, despite being the biggest state in the entire United States of America, is a very undeveloped state, more so than any other. Most of the land in Alaska is owned by the federal government (The percentage goes to 70% or 75% according to some.). As such, we do not have highways connecting all of the population centers (Oddly enough, many of us have to take a ferry to get to our capital of Juneau.). And even if we could get roads to connect all of Alaska, we have unique problems involved with building, or doing much of anything (Namely one problem that I care to mention, but there are others.). For us to construct on federal land, we have to ask permission and wait for however long it takes for them to approve or deny it. So development is incredibly slow here in Alaska.

The largest population center is Anchorage, and that is 230,000 of our total 700,000 population. After that, the next largest cities are our capital and Fairbanks, both clocking in 31,000 people. But past that, all of the remaining 408,000 people are scattered throughout the entire state, and with a rate of 1.26 people per square mile, there are a lot of areas where there are literally no people. Even with all of this land, we barely use any of it because we simply do not have the population to have a town every few hours from each other. In most cases we have to take bush planes to some of the smaller towns and villages, and the only major way to get into Alaska without getting a plane or a ferry, is to go through Canada on the Alkan Highway, and that highway is long as balls, and the only time to negotiate it easily is during summer or spring.

Winter is cold and it is long, and we basically go through Summer and Winter with no Spring or Autumn. You might think this is awesome, and that we get tons of snow, but such is not true. We do not get as much snow as you think, although that depends where in the 5 regions of Alaska you live (The Interior and North Slope are what I will be referring too, but the West Coast, the South East area, and the Islands usually get pretty heavy snow.). The snow in most places is useless, acting more like watery-icified-sand, with no real value besides covering the ground. The air itself is so dry that the moisture from the snow is literally sucked from the snow that falls, contributing to the uselessness of our snow. Also during winter, we lose a great deal of our day-light. During the earlier and mid-summer months, we have almost 24 hours of straight sunlight. Yes, the sun almost literally never sets. However, because  of Alaska's place on the Earth, during winter, we get only about 8 or 6 hours of daylight, and when the sun is down, the temperatures drop even colder. Where I live, the cold is so intense that it prevents much of the exhaust from furnaces and cars from escaping, and visibility and air quality plummet during those days. Although it wouldn't be a problem if most of the people died and turned, it is still an issue (Mostly for those living in natural "bowls".)

I saw someone earlier mention that Alaska has lots of guns and common sense. Yes, this is true. Many Alaskans own guns, and many of us are smart enough to not go outside naked during mid-winter. However, another thing about Alaska is that it is incredibly isolated, especially if you are putting forth an SSSS situation. We import basically all of our foods, and many other things because we don't have them here. That is part of why living up here is so expensive (But we also have higher wages than people in the lower 48 [Any state that isn't Alaska.] to balance this out!). Should mammalian life turn with the affliction, then much of the food that we have up here is going to be gunning to kill us, and thus makes much of Alaska easy pickings for the Silent Lands. I regret to say, but guns and ammunition are not edible. Although the native Alaskans would probably have a better time making it to the year 90 mark, much of Alaska would be Silent Lands and it would stay that way for a loooong time after, especially with how large and rugged we are here.

Although we have a very large military presence here, we do not have as many personnel or toys as we used to. We used to have a cracker ton of F-15's, but the lower 48 put them elsewhere in the states, taking with it all of the personnel who work and maintain those planes. We still have stuff up here, like A-10's and Bradley's, but not as many as there were at one point. And should the refineries, the pipeline, or the rigs lose too many people, there is no way to fuel all of those machines. Even now, the Alaska Pipeline is going to have to be replaced entirely in a few years because the steam from the oil is rusting the pipes from the inside out. So if someone wanted to claim all of the neato weapons of mass destruction we have up here, they'd need to devote a lot of time (And I am talking years if no touches those things for 90 years) and a lot of man power to reclaim those missile and nuke silos, and get those vehicles rolling again. Who is to say they'd even be useful (Although the APC's might be useful.) during the illness.

If anything, people would be surviving the 90 year mark on the coastlines near river mouths, or a little ways upstream. And they'd more than likely be Alaskan Native. (Imply there are no weirdo zombie whales!)

I could have gone on, but I wanted to make tacos, and I like tacos.

To expand on what Stereo said:
Anchorage is an international waypoint for jet travel AND the major transportation hub for Alaska.  If you want to go from one jet-capable airport in Alaska to another one that is also in Alaska, you don't fly directly; you go through Anchorage.  You also go through Anchorage to get to any other airport in the U.S.  All jet passengers use the same airport.  In addition, many people drive to jobs in Anchorage from surrounding communities.  Chance of infection in Anchorage: 100%; chance of infection in all other towns and cities: 100%.  Furthermore, villages without road access tend to have A LOT of small planes, which are often used to go shopping, get medical care, etc., in the cities and towns.  Chance of infection in any village or isolated commercial hunting lodge within about 250 miles of a larger community: 80%.  (The other 20% are off the road system, get the bad news in time, and fell trees on their airstrips to make them unusable.)  I should note here that Alaska is roughly the size of Scandinavia--all of Scandinavia.

That leaves the smaller, really isolated villages, mostly inland in the roadless area called the Bush.  The Illness strikes in late fall/early winter.  Bush villages are almost cut off from the outside world at this time.  The last barge carrying food and fuel came upriver in late summer/early fall.  Much of Alaska south of the Brooks Range is suited for farming of hardy crops such as potatoes and kale, with goats and small fruits to round out the diet; people just tend not to unless food is very expensive.  There are big gardens/tiny farms in many of these villages because food is extremely expensive by the time it gets upriver.  Also, people still eat A LOT of fish caught in the rivers, which they preserve using low-tech traditional methods.  So, they have big stockpiles of food and fuel to see them through the winter of Year 0.

Now what?

After the gasoline, no. 2 fuel oil, machine parts, etc., run out, the survivors have to fall back on traditional methods--but not all of them.  Many northern coastal communities traditionally depended on whaling.  The ocean is now full of whale-beasts, orca-beasts, walrus-beasts, seal-beasts, polar-bear-beasts, and sea-lion-beasts.  North of the big rivers and south of the Arctic coast, people depended on caribou.  Oh, look, millions of caribou-beasts hunted by Arctic-grizzly-bear-beasts and wolf-beasts!  Plus, these regions have such harsh winters that villagers tend not to keep cats...The river folk have the best chance of survival.  The upper Kuskokwim and the entire Yukon run through the taiga, which gets very hot and dry in summer, catching fire easily, and freezes hard enough in winter to turn a monster into a monster-sicle.  There are lots of fish.  There are also lots of dogs, unfortunately; dogsleds were the only way to get around fast enough without freezing to death in the old days, and people nowadays still have a lot of sled dogs.  If one dog gets infected, the entire village is in danger.  Also, firearms are really, really a good idea, so hopefully one village can figure out how to make muzzle loaders and trade them with the others after the modern ammunition runs out.  A spear thrower or a bow, plus really good aim, might perhaps be useful as well.  And of course the people who do keep cats would be trading kittens all over the place.  Neighbors are worth their weight in gold in the Bush. 

In the Year 90, I would expect to see small pockets of survivors, not all aware of one another, in the southwestern part of Alaska.  From Farewell to Sleetmute along the upper Kuskokwim and from Galena to Anvik along the lower Yukon would be the most thickly settled regions, with villages of a few hundred people a few days' travel apart from one another.  They would spread out in the summertime to catch fish and huddle up  in the winter with cats on duty at all times.  There aren't many places for beasts or trolls to hide in this region, so they wouldn't run a risk of swarms, but even one could wipe out a whole community, so they would always be in danger.  But, again, the taiga in July burns really, really well.  If you have to, set fire to the whole place, get in your boats, and hope the neighbors can take you in until next spring.

ETA: Here's a map of the area I have in mind.  If you go too far upriver along the Yukon, you are within flying distance of Fairbanks--not good.  South off the map, you're getting close to Bethel--also not good.  This region has the best chance of survivors IMO.

http://www.explorenorth.com/library/maps/n-bjonesmap8.htm
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 12:20:22 PM by Jenny Islander »
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Róisín

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #859 on: October 15, 2015, 08:10:53 PM »
Wow, that's really well thought out. I haven't been in Alaska in decades, but it doesn't look to have changed much. As I recall, the social conditions and attitudes, though not the weather, were in some ways a lot like outback Australia. As in our outback, I'd bet on lots of small scattered communities surviving. We're an odd combination of isolationist and communal in the outback. People will go to great lengths to help out their friends, neighbours and kin; much less so for people far away, and I can see the Alaskans, like our inlanders, becoming a lot less cooperative with the authorities in the big cities once something like the Rash happened. Here, all our big cities are on the coast, and there is a real disconnect between city and country. I had got the impression, back when I was in Alaska, of something similar in the mindset. How do you find it now?
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Jenny Islander

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #860 on: October 15, 2015, 11:24:05 PM »
Wow, that's really well thought out. (snip) Here, all our big cities are on the coast, and there is a real disconnect between city and country. I had got the impression, back when I was in Alaska, of something similar in the mindset. How do you find it now?

Why, thank you!  But a lot of it is what Stereo said.

Yes, there's a definite disconnect between urban and rural here.  I live in a town that's right on the divide, so the division kind of eddies around us.  There are fools on both sides IMO.  On one hand you have people who are bound and determined to do what they want with their land and none of those so-and-sos from town can tell them beans--but what they're doing is, for example, running heavy equipment through streams that are nurseries for salmon that their neighbors eat.  On the other hand, we had a governor a while back who proposed to shut down the state's public broadcasting system, in other words OUR EMERGENCY ALERT NETWORK, on the basis that anybody who wanted services should move to Anchorage.  But there are sensible people too, who realize that living in a moose habitat--which is what Anchorage happens to be--means adjusting their lives to make room for moose, and conversely that homeschooling through 8th grade because they live a boat ride away from the next house is sensible, but their kids really need to stay with friends in town for high school as they prepare for adulthood in the larger world.  (Oh--I know things differ by country: here it's optional preschool for the under-5s, then Kindergarten, then first through eighth grade, and then you go on to high school in your teens.)

Looking at my speculation above, I realized that I forgot something.  The Canadian lynx (Lynx canadensis) is found in most of Alaska clear up to the coast of the Arctic Ocean.  This cat is the size of a sheepdog and can be tamed--sort of; responsible owners watch them carefully around smaller animals and also around small children.  They can be clicker trained, they are affectionate toward (adult!) humans if properly raised, and besides being big they can live for more than 20 years.  If all felines are immune to the Illness, then this animal may be a powerful ally to any surviving Alaskans and Canadians.
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Róisín

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #861 on: October 16, 2015, 04:11:43 AM »
I've encountered the Alaskan lynx, and quite agree with your assessment. And homeschooling definitely can be useful (was homeschooled myself well into teens, my kids also for some years, mostly because of living in places where the nearest neighbour might be fifty miles away, the nearest town a couple of hundred.) trouble arises when the kids don't meet enough other people or viewpoints to live in the world.
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Jenny Islander

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #862 on: October 17, 2015, 11:17:29 PM »
Expanding further on trolls, giants, and beasts in the Alaskan Bush:

Small ones would be the most common because most small mammals in that part of the world build or find winter shelters anyway.  (Aside:  Infected BATS.  Shudder.)  Traditional houses built from locally available material are notoriously easy for small rodents to penetrate; one Alaskan author raised in a traditional house writes about being resigned to finding evidence of a vole's "nightly turd dance" on his blanket every morning.  People might be absolutely dependent on cats and lynxes for survival!

Large beasts would be less common, except for bears, because they winter in the open and need to be in tip-top shape to make it through until spring.  Most large beasts would drop dead in the winter of Year 0.  However, there would always be the risk of infection by small beasts.  Without any anti-viral masks, it would be vital to identify a beast and shoot it in the head at maximum range, preferably while standing upwind.  Besides muzzle-loaders, local technology might be up to cumbersome but powerful crossbows.

Trolls would be quite rare.  Most trolls that ventured out of the cities would freeze solid in the first winter, and there aren't many places for a troll to den up.  Villages near old military bases or abandoned mining towns (or mines!) would be in the most danger.  But because of the terrible winter cold, simply abandoning those villages might be all that was needed.

The people of the Yukon-Kuskokwim region may never have seen a giant from Year 0 to Year 90.

They would be at a much lower technological level than the Scandinavians because they would be starting with fewer people and less stuff.  Any person or animal who came within breath's reach of a beast or troll would have to be quarantined (if they survived the encounter) and watched for signs of illness.  In high summer, with maybe four hours of darkness per 24-hour cycle, sunlight might save some lives.  In winter, meeting an infected creature would be highly unlikely.  Spring and fall, luckily the shortest seasons, would be the most dangerous, with warmth, darkness for hiding, and a desire for more food in spring or a new shelter (your house, maybe?) in fall.
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Jenny Islander

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #863 on: October 18, 2015, 01:57:18 AM »
Oh oh oh!  Fun fact for North America, fun fact for North America: As of the late '90s, there were about 20,000 tigers in captivity in the U.S. alone.  Many of them were in private collections where they stayed inside the enclosure mainly because that was where the food was put.  Tigers breed very quickly and can tolerate the climate from southern Alaska to Tierra del Fuego as long as there is permanent water and big game.

Also they don't like rival predators and try to kill them.  All but the largest beasts might have trouble with a tiger.

So any survivors south of the subarctic might be grateful to see tigers around.  As long as, you know, there was something else for them to eat.  Not humans.
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snotra

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #864 on: October 19, 2015, 07:38:52 AM »
Considering the semi-autonomous state of the Christiania commune in Kopenhagen, would it be possible that they survived for a short time on their own, after, say, day 10? The foritifications encountered in page 408 might be in the wrong place for it, but would packing up and moving be beyond the capabilities of its inhabitants and any refugees that came along with it?
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urbicande

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #865 on: October 20, 2015, 01:59:57 PM »
Considering the semi-autonomous state of the Christiania commune in Kopenhagen, would it be possible that they survived for a short time on their own, after, say, day 10? The foritifications encountered in page 408 might be in the wrong place for it, but would packing up and moving be beyond the capabilities of its inhabitants and any refugees that came along with it?

I'd think that any refugees when the Illness hit, those that were immune, would band together of necessity.
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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #866 on: October 20, 2015, 05:11:38 PM »
hey, new to the comic & forum so im not sure if this has been said yet but:

i sure hope that there are other surviving communities because the idea that only white people will survive the end of the world is well... terrifying.


im from latin america, and i know cold is a factor (and well you have patagonia, plenty of mountain ranges, half of bolivia, chile, etc..), but so is isolation. And the geography of latin america allows for the existence of many remote communities of campesino and indigenous peoples in areas of very low population density, isolated by mountains, forests, and/or deserts.

My guess also ventures to the thousands of small populated islands in the pacific and southeast asia.


Jenny Islander

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #867 on: October 20, 2015, 08:49:01 PM »
hey, new to the comic & forum so im not sure if this has been said yet but:

i sure hope that there are other surviving communities because the idea that only white people will survive the end of the world is well... terrifying.


im from latin america, and i know cold is a factor (and well you have patagonia, plenty of mountain ranges, half of bolivia, chile, etc..), but so is isolation. And the geography of latin america allows for the existence of many remote communities of campesino and indigenous peoples in areas of very low population density, isolated by mountains, forests, and/or deserts.

My guess also ventures to the thousands of small populated islands in the pacific and southeast asia.

Small islands without large populations, and outside the latitudes where seals haul out, would have a fighting chance--especially if there were cats.  Getting anywhere else from there would be horribly dangerous without a wizard/shaman/mage/psychic/whatever they might call it.
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Dane Murgen

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #868 on: October 20, 2015, 09:20:41 PM »
hey, new to the comic & forum so im not sure if this has been said yet but:

i sure hope that there are other surviving communities because the idea that only white people will survive the end of the world is well... terrifying.


im from latin america, and i know cold is a factor (and well you have patagonia, plenty of mountain ranges, half of bolivia, chile, etc..), but so is isolation. And the geography of latin america allows for the existence of many remote communities of campesino and indigenous peoples in areas of very low population density, isolated by mountains, forests, and/or deserts.

My guess also ventures to the thousands of small populated islands in the pacific and southeast asia.

Southeast Asia is pretty much dead, unless Dubai somehow closes its airport, delaying the pathogen's path to Southeast Asia for the entirety of ASEAN to close its borders. Even then, due to the intense overpopulation, most of maritime Southeast Asia is dead (mainly the small isolated islands), mainly because all non-feline mammals are also vectors of the Rash. This also means that the small tropical Pacific Islands are also dead, since whales and dolphins are things that exist. Isolation is not enough to get away from The Rash, unless it is accompanied by the cold. However, it may be possible for communities with warmish climates to survive if it is completely surrounded by mountains. Beasts can travel through forests basically unimpeded, and the potential community will have no visual on them. It still is not known whether there are any upper temperature limits of the Rash, but until we know, we must also discount deserts as a possible barrier of the Rash.

However, there are potential communities in Japan and stuff, earlier in the thread.

Basically what Jenny said, without the small part due to space required for agriculture. Also they have to watch out for sperm whales and stuff.
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Jenny Islander

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #869 on: October 21, 2015, 12:48:38 AM »
A lot would depend on whether whale-beasts ever come out of the water.  If they don't, a small island would provide fewer places for infected bats to hide: send cats or wizards after them before they can infect anything else.  A small population could live on the island's resources.  This pretty much means that all islands visited by tourists or harboring military bases are FUBAR.

EDITED: I've concluded that bats must be immune to the Illness, even if nobody has realized it, because otherwise Iceland would be full of shambling goo monsters.  Bats don't breed in Iceland (as far as I can tell), but they do visit regularly from the south.  So whether or not an island has bats on it would be a non-issue.  Humans could survive on any island with defensible harbors and airstrips, enough people to keep out refugees but not too many to feed from local resources, and infrequent jet/boat service so they wouldn't already be infected by the time the news got out--and radio reception: that would be literally vital.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 07:03:16 PM by Jenny Islander »
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