Survivor communities outside the known world

[urbicande]

Hmm. Without going through the 58 pages of this thread, has anyone mentioned the Falkland Islands/Malvinas as a possible place for survivors?  It looks to have a similar climate to that of Iceland.

[Hrollo]

I had mentionned the southern archipelago (Tierra del Fuego) at the tip of South America, so close enough.

[urbicande]

I had mentionned the southern archipelago (Tierra del Fuego) at the tip of South America, so close enough.

How does it compare, climate-wise?

[Hrollo]

It looks similar to Falklands: http://thompsonsubzero.ca/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/jan_global_temp_map_labeled1.jpg

[urbicande]

It looks similar to Falklands: http://thompsonsubzero.ca/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/jan_global_temp_map_labeled1.jpg

Although quite a bit less isolated. 

Hmm...looking at the Map, the Sandwich Islands (though the climate may be too harsh to support enough people).  The Kerguelen Islands are a possibility, although they have a very small population (120 or so in the summer),

[Hrollo]

Yeah but it has low population (less than Iceland for the whole archipelago) and consists of many tiny islands, so it's easy to defend/isolate.

[urbicande]

Yeah but it has low population (less than Iceland for the whole archipelago) and consists of many tiny islands, so it's easy to defend/isolate.

That's a possibility then!

[Jenny Islander]

Although quite a bit less isolated. 

Hmm...looking at the Map, the Sandwich Islands (though the climate may be too harsh to support enough people).  The Kerguelen Islands are a possibility, although they have a very small population (120 or so in the summer),

Look at my "View posts by" for a long post about the Kerguelen Archipelago.  As for the Sandwich Islands, did you mean the South Sandwich Islands off Antarctica?  They are uninhabited and not suitable for permanent habitation even using Eskimo technology.  South Georgia, on the other hand, while it has fewer than two dozen personnel in the summer, is visited by about a dozen different cruise ships during the sailing season, to say nothing of round-the-world yachtsmen.  If one or more ships, with nobody infected on board, happened to be there or bound there when the bad news came over the satellite link and then the radio started screaming, and they had the right skill sets and the right books, then South Georgia could become home to a hardy colony of survivors. 

The challenges would be quite different from those on Kerguelen.  For one thing, there are no woody plants at all on South Georgia--only driftwood.  This would restrict the new South Georgians to their island until somebody from outside came in a boat.  You can make the wooden parts for a kayak out of driftwood, but you can't go very far in a kayak.  You need recently cut wood that you can bend into shape for a bigger leather boat.  Also, I can't find any references to coal deposits, only peat.  You can forge steel using a peat fire, but you will have to tweak the design you're used to.  Still, the survivors could eventually start recycling the ship(s) they arrived in, plus the buildings and ruins that were already there, giving them useful tools of all kinds--but no guns, most likely, because there are no sulfur deposits that I know of.  With only bone, ivory, stone, metal, and leather to work with, their best kill-it-before-it-can-reach-me tool may be a throwing star.  Until global warming took hold, overland travel was very difficult without winter gear because of the many large glaciers, but now it's much easier for an animal to go anywhere on the main island.  And the main island is 165 km long and up to 35 km wide, with fjords all over the place, making the coastline huge.  Patrolling it for infected animals would be difficult--especially because there almost certainly wouldn't be any cats.  It might be simpler to build chest-high stone walls around the village or villages and patrol them instead, killing anything weird that came near, and sending out periodic expeditions for meat.  ETA: Until large pieces of structural wood ran out, it might be possible to make crossbows with mostly metal parts.

Like the Kerguelenese in my earlier post, they could build dry-stone houses and heat them with peat.  Staying warm personally would be trickier.  The Kerguelenese would have sheep; the South Georgians, on the other hand, would have to kill an animal in order to get some fur to wear.  Eskimo-style parkas made of reindeer and seal hide would work, after they had figured out the stitching.  Blankets would have to be made from furs too (phew!).

Potatoes and peas have gone wild on South Georgia (in sheltered spots only!), so plant food would not be difficult to produce, even if the coasts were too dangerous to go picking seaweed.  Animal food would be harder.  If TEOTWAWKI happened before 2013, then reindeer would be available; if before 2015, they would at least have brown rats and mice.  Everything else is a seasonal visitor, except for a few small birds.  It isn't impossible to get protein stored up for winter in these conditions, but it's very difficult.

ETA 2: I found and then lost a reference to an apple seedling, of all things, being spotted somewhere on South Georgia.  It is possible to raise full-sized apple trees in Fairbanks, 64 degrees N, by using very basic technology: build a rock cairn over the seedling with a hole at the top for light, then wrap the growing tree in a warm jacket over the winter.  South Georgia is at 54 degrees S.  While the variable weather may nip all the buds, the point of growing apple trees wouldn't be to set fruit, but to make wood.  Wood for atlatl-powered javelins, wood for the frames of relatively larger leather boats, maybe even wood for crossbow stocks.

[illuvatar]

I theorized that instead of, let's say, Finnish magic or Icelandic magic, the Northern American Native Americans had magic that was inclined towards Shamanism rather than different magic, like what Vafhudr said.

[Róisín]

Indeed they did.  Up until 1982 when the law was changed, Canada had a policy of attempting to extinguish native languages and cultures, notably through the 'Canadian Indian Residential School System'; in North America similar things happened, often with even more forcible removal of tribes from their lands, not all as extreme as the Trail of Tears but a lot of them pretty bad. What often happened was that the remains of several tribes, often of widely differing beliefs, would be mashed together on a reservation, forcibly converted to Christianity, and forbidden their native languages and cultures. Of course, many things were saved by going underground and no longer being taught openly, but nevertheless many things were also lost.

Another important point that I've raised before, (speaking as a person 'brought up in a tradition that takes magic and spirits for granted', as Vafhudr puts it), is that magic derives from, and is rooted in, the land. In isolated areas that were not despoiled, or in areas where the land is given a chance to recover, I do think magic would come back fairly quickly. While there are some things that all land has in common, each area of land is different in its fine detail, and thus so is the magic derived from it.

The receptivity of the people involved is, as you say, also a factor. But I do think the land would find people who answered it. It generally does.

[prof_marvel]

This is a topic in which I have considerable interest, as a longtime student of the topic of supernatural beings and spirituality.

I can attest to the fact that Native American Shamanism is alive and well in North America and would be up to the task.

The only intelligent comment I can offer on "survivors" is that most "Plains" and mountain reservations are sufficiently isolated that they might be spared the SSSS plague due to remoteness and the ability in many cases to close a few roads ( or blow bridges) . The intense UV of the high plains, deserts, and mountain regions may help in that respect, and the Rocky Mountain regions have been experiencing Arctic winters ( down to -30 C on for weeks) that might help.

BTW Native Americans do not take well to references of "magic" - Plains Indians generally refer to such practitioners as "medicine people", dividing them roughly into two groups, spiritual practitioners and healing practitioners - but there are often crossovers.

The more I study Finnish shamanism the more parallels I find to Plains Indian spirituality.

- Both teach existence of "spirit" in all living things, and in nature - mountains, rivers, rocks, trees, plants ,and even places have spirits ; the very air, earth , water and sky have a spirit .

- Both teach that individuals may have spirit guides or helpers.
- Both teach that there are both good and bad in both the mundane and the spirit world.
      The wisest teach that often "good" or "bad" is a relative matter!
- Both teach that the "dream world" is as real and important as the "real world".

Finnish Lavvu, round drums, and sauna are nearly identical to the Plains Indian tipi, sacred drum, and sweat lodge.
Lakota tradition teaches of "normally invisible little people" and land spirits much like the Nordic Vættir and Húsvættir .

As specific examples, Lalli's "magic incantations" are incredibly similar to some Native American prayers to request help from specific spirits. And the Lallos' Finnish Kallohonka ceremony is virtually identical to several Plains Indian ceremonies meant to honor a killed animal's spirit and send it to rest.  The more I study, the more I find the similarities abound. My lack of ability to read Finnish makes it tough.

I would love to compare notes with Minna on the topic
--------

With this in mind I can safely say that Native American Medicine people are alive and well, and would step up to the tasks .
Just as mages of different abilities have different success rates so would the North American practitioners.

At the same time I believe Japan would step up with certain Shinto practitioners of known abilities, a number of well-known Budhists "specialists",  a number of well-known Onmyouji , and a few tried-and-tested Yamabuchi (Mountain Asecetics) would step up. The best of these are well known for successful exorcisms and "banishing daemonic entities".

pray , continue! this is interesting!

yhs
prof marvel

[Laufey]

One correction though: the lavvu and the round drums you mentioned belong to the Sami tradition, not the general Finnish one. Both traditions are shamanistic and often bleed together a little bit (there are even legends of powerful Finnish witches who gained their knowledge and skills by traveling to Lapland to learn from Sami) but they're two different traditions.

[prof_marvel]

Thanks for the correction, Laufey! I truly appreciate the input.

Due to language issues It is only in recent years that I have been able to begin to understand the differentiation betwixt the "mainstream Japanese" and the original Ainu peoples ( and it does not help that the Japanese gov't refused to even acknowledge that they existed for decades ) . Thus the language barrier I encounter with Finnish makes my more recent efforts ... interesting .

Oooohhhh Professora Laufey, you speak Finnish as well as Swedish and British? ooooooooooooooooo
May I pick your brain?

==================================================================================
back to the  U.S. Pacific NW :

There are over 500 recognized tribes or bands of Native Americans ( henceforth N.A. ) in the Pacific Northwest.

Native Americans of Puget Sound have been known as
- Puget Salish
- Southern Coast Salish,
- Duwamish,
- Nisqually,
- Skagit,
- Snoqualmie.

They are often lumped together as the Lushootseed People, who are not generally part of the "totem pole" cultures.

This is somewhat similar the the Iroquois Nation in  New England , which was a confederacy of individual tribes,
or the "Sioux-an People" tribes that split off and share a common linguistic root .

There is an almost universal belief across the N.A. cultures of a supreme "Great Spirit"  ( in Sioux Wakan-Tanka or "Great Mystery" ) responsible for all creation, with a varying hierarchary of "other spirits" , usually including major spirits of the directions, and often the entire planet itself as "Mother Earth" ( in Sioux Maca Unci  or Grandmother Earth ) .
The deeper one goes the more complex it becomes.

here are some tidbits of the Lushootseed Peoples .

- The world is full of spirits. Things that seem inanimate, like rocks or weather, are living beings with their own spirits,
just like plants, animals, and people. Like other N.A. people, the Lushootseed beleive these spirits brought major gifts
( such as Raven Bringing Fire to Humans) and taught the skills and knowledge necessary to survive and flourish.

- The number of spirit powers in the world is limitless. there are spirits which help with everyday work.
eg:  Clam or Duck help in hunting;  others support the making of baskets ; Loon and Grizzly are warrior spirits; Wolf assists undertakers ; Thunder assists orators; Humanlike spirits provide wealth. Healing spirits include Otter, Kingfisher, and a giant horned serpent .

As in other traditions, sacrifices and long persistent effort are required to obtain spirit powers.
If a spirit does not consider an individual worthy , no amount of effort is enough. A person nearly always apprentices
themselves to a knowledgeable Elder in the art who prepares and assists them in all spiritual matters and teaches them
more "mundane  stuff"  ( ie: "do not eat the yellow snow" )

Individuals seldom discuss his/her spirit power with outsiders, and even insiders will not be granted details.
It is dangerous to speak about one's spirit power, and rude to ask about another person's.
Disrespecting the spirit powers could lead to losing the power,  bad luck, illness, and even death. Whenever one uses the power
there is always a cost.

The spirit powers are forces to be reckoned with. Relations with them were governed by strict rules, the Spirits often have their own work and agendas, and they could never be fully understood by two-leggeds (mortal humans); One might as well try to teach physics to a mouse or explain why the economy is tanking to a bunny.

One elder said, spirits "wiggle away from your mind like a snake."

Spirit powers are most evident to the public during the ceremonies held in December and January, when the spirits visit Lushootseed towns and assist in the rituals that bound communities together. This is very similar to the Pueblo, Zuni and Hopi  Peoples' Kachina Dances.

In the longhouses, individuals performed the Winter Dance, releasing their spirit power's via specific dance and songs.
Naming was also done during this time, with family names granted to younger generations as a link between the past and the future.  The "Power Board"  ceremony is done,  using carved and painted plaques to cleanse the house and the people present.

One of the most important ceremonies is The "Spirit Canoe" ceremony,  bringing "doctors" from several communities  to perform a "journey to the Land of the Dead" in order to retrieve the souls of ill people.

Potlatch Ceremonies are performed -
The "Potlatch Ceremony" is one form of a "give-away" in which those people whose prayers were answered show their gratitude
to the spirits involved and to the community by making physical offerings to the spirits and feeding and giving away material goods to others.

In all cases ceremonies are specific to a thing, and have specific form, dances, prayers, and songs ( or "chants" or "spells" if you will, but do not refer to them in this way to any Native person)  that are used to call in and invoke the power of a specific  Spirit, which have been passed down.

As in western traditions, there are "good" and "evil" practitioners. Thus the aversion to any references of "magic, spells ,etc"

Further, the Pac NW peoples I have been in contact with maintain that any power does not come from the practitioner, but from the Spirits - and it can be withheld or revoked at any time.

FYI - Those who turn to "the dark side" can be quite dangerous, and practitioners are warned not to "go bad" .
Often those who turn "evil" are pursuing revenge or power or wealth for personal gain, and may attract powerful negative
entities. It always turns bad, often atrociously horrible, causing terrible events in the community, and is often difficult to deal with and dispell.

If one shows good intent, and sincerity and becomes trusted, one may learn of some of the events that make horror movies look like toddler's saturday cartoons.

hope this helps
prof marvel

[Jenny Islander]

I am not able to speak about the native spiritual practices of the Pacific Northwest, not having been raised in or accepted into those traditions, but I can say something about the physical world: All tribes in that region were and are heavily reliant on rivers and the sea, bringing them within reach of lurking water monsters.  Also, there are bears everywhere.  It's difficult to describe the ubiquity of bears here to people who don't come from bear country.  Last fall there was bear poop in a yard two houses over from mine and I live in the middle of town.  I know somebody half a mile from me who had to live with the same bear sleeping on her back porch three years in a row because whenever she called the authorities, "Riot Bear" somehow got wind of it and made himself scarce.  It's not uncommon for the police to issue warnings against using a particular bus stop because a bear has decided to den up in the bushes nearby for a while.  Yes, I live next door to a wildlife refuge that was created for the biggest bears in the world, but black bears elsewhere in the PNW are just as common, and big enough to kill an adult human.  Then there are the raccoons.  They only look cute.  Imagine a feral dog weighing perhaps 30 pounds, perhaps more--except this one can climb the side of a building and turn a doorknob.  Also, winters are not consistently harsh here.

On the human side, no place in the PNW is comparable to Iceland in terms of isolation plus quick travel restrictions and dedicated defenses: even Kodiak Island, which looks so distant, gets four planes a day from Alaska's major population center and is reachable by float plane or smallish watercraft from a long, long stretch of unpatrolled coast.  The terrain is rugged and heavily forested pretty much everywhere, making it easier for beasts and trolls to hide: infected once, infested permanently.  It's remotely possible that a military ship captain who figured out what was happening early on--and could keep down a mutiny--could pick an island to protect, shooting anyone or anything approaching the shore, then shooting anything on the island that approached the ship, applying fire as needed, until the whole place was clean.  The Bremerton Yards are home to a part of the U.S. Naval Reserve Fleet and see a lot of vessel traffic, including submarines.  The survivors would have to keep a fairly high-energy civilization going because of the water, water everywhere, what with the whales, porpoises, dolphins, seals, sea lions, and otters that heavily populate the continental shelf.  They would need a lot of guns.  With large population centers everywhere you look, the radio would be completely useless, so if there were (say) a Free Republic of the San Juan Islands, there would be no way for anybody else to tell.

Also, much of the modern infrastructure of the PNW is dependent on engineering projects that would quickly decay; dams would break, drained wetlands would un-drain, and loose barges would pile up against bridges, taking them down.  Even something like a cat-tank couldn't negotiate that.  Not to mention the appalling speed with which local vegetation can cover an untended highway...

[Jenny Islander]

According to some people whose research I trust, in case of The End of the World as We Know It, both of the major valleys of California would burn for weeks.  The water supply would fail nearly everywhere, there would be no fire suppression crews, and a single fire anywhere in either valley during the summer could spread throughout both in a few days.  Everything to the edge of the boreal rainforest, the ocean, the montane rain line, or the desert would burn.

Now.  In one way that is piling disaster on top of catastrophe, but in another way it could save the lives of some uninfected people.  Fire, after all, kills the infected.  So (assuming that those gloppy, gloppy grosslings, trolls, and beasts need water to survive) people who had gone into the desert for safety (there are oases out there) could move back in after the rains came next winter and get a head start.  There are also mountain towns that might be able to barricade their single road--most people who live up there hunt.  The valleys have a Mediterranean climate with formerly rich wetlands that could regenerate themselves within a generation or two.  Not a bad place to live, if you work with what you have instead of trying to overlay the type of farming that was perfected in the wetter woodlands of Eastern North America.  There could be a lot of villages with thick rubble walls around them and olive groves just outside.