Poll

What do you think the state of things is beyond Scandinavia?

More of the Silent World: Trolls, beasts and giants everywhere
7 (16.7%)
A few groups of humans, but mostly wilderness
14 (33.3%)
USA and other superpowers are relatively intact
0 (0%)
Scorched Earth: nothing, not even grosslings, is alive
0 (0%)
Plenty of places like Scandinavia, but isolated
21 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 37

Voting closed: July 03, 2015, 03:28:37 PM

Author Topic: Survivor communities outside the known world  (Read 257636 times)

urbicande

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #900 on: November 17, 2015, 04:18:27 PM »
How far could you actually get a working radio signal to reach without satellites or huge radio towers, though? I mean... Scandinavia is a pretty terrainy place. Just going into the countryside in some areas is bound to give your car radio some difficulties, even if you stick to fairly big roads... the distance between Copenhagen and Mora is fairly flat and low terrain, and the crew STILL had to radio some professional dude with a radio mast just to get in touch with Trond and co. Since most of todays radio traffic relies on satellites and a few major transmitter towers (neither of which are likely to be maintained in y90) their radio network would essentially have to be completely re-built once the old system began to fall apart.

It really depends on the wavelength you're using.  UHF frequencies are going to be pretty much line of sight and not much use without repeaters.  VHF kind of depends on where in the range you fall.  HF, though (the frequencies most used by amateur radio for distance communication) will be bouncing off the sky.  That  2600 km record I mentioned was done on the 10 meter band, but at those longer wavelengths, there's no real problem with distance.  And simple wire antennae are easy peasy to make.  For, say, the 14 Mhz band (20m) you literally need 10 meters of plain wire cut in half for the antenna (more for the feed line, but simple ladder line is also dead easy to make).

Propagation shouldn't be a major problem, even if the trolls create noise,
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Róisín

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #901 on: November 17, 2015, 04:45:59 PM »
It did occur to me to wonder how sunspot levels and the like would affect their radio. Aren't we due a Maunder minimum soon?
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urbicande

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #902 on: November 18, 2015, 09:46:37 AM »
It did occur to me to wonder how sunspot levels and the like would affect their radio. Aren't we due a Maunder minimum soon?

Again, depends on the band.  10m is pretty dead these days.  40m is fine (especially in the evening).

(I note that the real reason that they don't use radio is the same reason that people in a rom-com don't just pick up their phone and call people. There'd be much less of a story!)
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illuvatar

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #903 on: January 11, 2016, 08:39:18 AM »
Since the disease has impacted Scandinavia and Finland, the people in SSSS have returned to believing in trolls, elves, and mythological Nordic creatures as well as bringing back old traditions.

 I wonder if in North America things went similar (If there were survivors) and reverted to believing in Native American religions from certain tribes. I think that Americans/Native North Americans traveled north into Canada and Alaska to escape the disease, where they adopted culture of the Native Americans already there (tribes like the Inuit, Tlingit, and the Haida). If there were survivors in North America, they would have gone to Alaska because of it's isolation from large populations, which could slow the spread of the disease.

What do you think of this? I was wondering if it actually happened or whether the Scandinavians were the only survivors, which sounds kind of unlikely.
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Purple Wyrm

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #904 on: January 11, 2016, 09:01:51 AM »
Seems plausible. The cold would work to control grosslings the same way it does in Scandinavia.
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Róisín

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #905 on: January 11, 2016, 09:05:10 AM »
There's actually a thread for this sort of speculation already, Jotnar (sorry, my keyboard doesn't believe in the crossed o thing). It's called something like 'survivor communities outside the known world' if I remember correctly, and I think there is already speculation about Native American survivors there. I'm sure they'd be fascinated to hear your ideas. At some point the admins may move this there, if it's not considered a separate topic.

Meanwhile, it's interesting to consider what the moving north would have done to their languages, cultural patterns, folklore and mythology and land magic. And what they would call their troll equivalents. I'm curious about how their hunting techniques might have been adapted for grossling control, as the Dalsnes troll hunters have done.

We don't yet know, in-story, where else in the world people have survived, but there's something of a consensus that it could have happened in places that are cold enough, isolated enough, and have cats.
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viola

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #906 on: January 11, 2016, 10:07:40 AM »
This is an interesting theory. Since it is SSSS related, is it ok if we move it over to the SSSS board?
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illuvatar

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #907 on: January 11, 2016, 10:42:37 AM »
Right- it should be in the SSSS category- sorry, I hadn't noticed that.
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viola

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #908 on: January 11, 2016, 10:44:25 AM »
Right- it should be in the SSSS category- sorry, I hadn't noticed that.

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illuvatar

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #909 on: January 11, 2016, 11:01:41 AM »
Róisín- perhaps mythological creatures commonly shared between tribes like thunderbirds or sea serpents were prevalent in the Pacific and among survivors.

Also, after doing a little research, anthromorphic humanoids were common among Pacific/Sub-Arctic legends, such as Agloolik, Akhlut, which creatures could help the survivng people of the north (Kind of like cats in Scandinavia).

There is a lot of nature spirits in Native American folklore- so I've theorized that if someone/something is infected, it is either classified as a woodsman (Pacific bigfoot that is solitary and is afraid of the immune) or as a malicious nature spirit, which becomes partially blended with nature). There is a creature in Mi'kmaq mythology known as Wiklatmuj, which is known for having formidable magical skill. (This could probably be a creature that N.A. mages/shamans interact with to learn about magic.)

I think there's a lot to explore in this theory, especially on how nature magic, society in the immune communities, and grossling control works.

By the way, (Feartheviolas) how can I move this to the SSSS thread? Or do I leave it to the admin/moderators?
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viola

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #910 on: January 11, 2016, 11:05:05 AM »
By the way, (Feartheviolas) how can I move this to the SSSS thread? Or do I leave it to the admin/moderators?

It's already done! I put it on the SSSS board :)
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illuvatar

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #911 on: January 11, 2016, 11:05:44 AM »
Thanks  :)
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Vafhudr

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #912 on: January 11, 2016, 05:37:51 PM »
Well you see this kind of theory brings about a problematic that I think is largely absent in the context of scandinavia and acts as a rather large elephant in the room for these kind of discussions - and that is it suggests the adoption by non-natives of beliefs systems and folkways that have been aggressively and ruthlessly repressed both by Christianity and it's various cults, and the major states involved (US, Canada) on economic, cultural, and racial lines. These two states, and the cultures within them, have also explicitly constructed themselves opposite to these native cultures. There is no return to "indigenous" or "pagan" faiths in America because a lot of the nations of America were founded as explicitly christian European nations. You can also imagine that natives would not be keen in welcoming in welcoming for a second time plague-bearing foreigners to their shores. So we can see a two-fold resistance - from within the american cultures themselves, which have some 200+ years of narrative about the inferiority of native cultures, and from the native cultures themselves, who I doubt would be very keen seeing the last little bits of land they have be overwhelmed once again by americans and canadians who also now lay claim to their culture as well.

So would natives persist - considering the amount of crap they went through already and their current geopolitical situation (herded in isolated reserves or territories, mostly, with very little economic options)  I would say yes. Would they revert to their old ways - arguably yes. Or at least, as much of the old ways that are remembered or re-imagined. This has some leeway because it is not clear how otherwise overwhelmingly Christian nations reverted to paganism in the space of three generations - I chalk it up to the fact that the kind of apocalyptic plague going on is enough of a disruptor to bring about massive social changes in a very short amount of time. Of what I know of aboriginal folklore there is plenty in there to keep them safe from trolls. The major issue would not in fact be trolls, but rather beasts. Since northern Canada (and US) is aggressively hostile to most form of agriculture, hunting-gathering is the de facto answer - a practice that is directly endangered by the plague spreading to mammals. So it would be an even more fragile existence than what have seen so far in the comic. A herd gets decimated and a whole nation may starve during the winter.

So really, it's not the plague that is the real problem - it's the winter. It's those 6-8 months of crushing cold. But they lived through it in the past, so I am sure they can do it in the post-apocalyptic future as well.

I am confident that the Canadian shield rock formation and terrain, as well as the valleys of the Rocky mountains, are more than enough deterrent for monsters, but the problem is to eke out a living out of such places. Which is virtually impossible beyond a certain population mass - made even more difficult if the primary sources of food are directly affected.

So really - if there was an exodus to northern Canada the primary result would be widespread famine and death and hostile populations and death. The populations already there would have to adjust to losing the infrastructure (money, food, materials) flown in from the south, but eventually it is in the best place to build a post-plague society. The problem is that in North America there is nowhere that can play the role of Iceland as a stable source of resources and foodstuff.

We are talking perhaps 30 000 - 80 000 at the time the comic takes place, I would say. 80 000 is generous and presumes surviving cultures in the Saguenay, Newfoundland, some of the islands of the Pacific Northwest, as well throughout Northern Quebec + Northern Ontario + Northern Manitoba and Saskatchewan (Crees), the Northwest Territories (Dene and a bunch of other groups, Inuit, and Nunavut + Nunavik (Inuit). I also include French Canadians, Acadians and Metis as possible culture because of all the european-descended nations in America, they are as far as I can tell the only nations that had any meaningful cultural exchange with their allied native nations and with a foot in the door to adopt these beliefs. But that side of the culture has also been suppressed and was largely tied to the fur trade. This is important because in this world rivers would once again be the veins of commerce and transport. The huge network of rivers and lakes of the north would make it possible that these 30 - 80 000 thousand people survive but also stay in relative contact. A very loose confederation of outposts, cities, and campgrounds with possibly more than 80 percent of the population living a non-sedentary or semi-sedentary lifestyle of hunting-gathering, fishing, voyaging, foraging. Probably very different lifestyles depending on the season, too.

Also Mikmaqs are too much to the south to be good candidates for a surviving culture. New Brunswick is not great but it's not that barren either. The would be overwhelmed unless they moved further north and other side of the Saint-Laurent.

So with these reservations I think we can direct a better line of inquiry and worldbuilding.
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Róisín

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #913 on: January 11, 2016, 10:43:24 PM »
Good points all, Vafhudr. Another thing that might be worth thinking about, and that commenters often forget, is that the land and the landspirits have a stake in this too. In Finland/Scandinavia, magic has come back. Why would it not do so in Canada/North America? That area, even now, has enough unspoiled land for such things to survive, and once the humans stopped fracking, polluting, overcropping, overhunting and generally pushing the land beyond its carrying capacity, I can see it as a place where the magic would come flooding back fairly quickly.

Of course, how the land might feel about humans and their doings is still another matter! But the original indigenes there seemed to manage well enough, and I know most of the tribes had rules about what might and might not be done to and with the land, its physical resources and its magic. With the northern tribes as with those here in Australia, there was usually a pretty clear understanding of how many people an area could support, and if the humans didn't enforce it the land would. And if the humans had forgotten entirely I'm sure it wouldn't be long before the landspirits reminded them.
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Vafhudr

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #914 on: January 12, 2016, 05:40:45 PM »
Well arguably magic has never left in North America. My father was discussing recently with a friend of the family who is an Inuit and he firmly believes in what I would call shamanism - from an anthropological perspective. This is a man who was brought up in a tradition that takes magic and spirits for granted, or at least if I presume he is not joking with us. I do not have much detail, nor do I know how serious he was, but I do not doubt that magic would return or have a place in north america. What I bring into doubt is... shall we say... the receptiveness of the audience.

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