Author Topic: Character Development: Emil  (Read 52981 times)

hushpiper

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #60 on: December 17, 2014, 11:08:53 PM »
 Heh! *shoves the fifty pages of rambling she's written on this topic at you* Frankly, my guess? Chemistry. Aside from the obvious (highly exothermic reactions ohoho!), it just seems... appropriate for him in a way that I can't quite put my finger on. Though I also considered something like music. I'd say piano, but I'd be shocked if any of those were still around. Violin, perhaps. And his somewhat, ahm, grandiloquent speaking style suggests an interest in literature as well.

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #61 on: December 17, 2014, 11:19:35 PM »
Heh! *shoves the fifty pages of rambling she's written on this topic at you*

Frankly, my guess? Chemistry. Aside from the obvious (highly exothermic reactions ohoho!), it just seems... appropriate for him in a way that I can't quite put my finger on. Though I also considered something like music. I'd say piano, but I'd be shocked if any of those were still around. Violin, perhaps. And his somewhat, ahm, grandiloquent speaking style suggests an interest in literature as well.

I am enjoying everyone's speculations more than I can say.  I never would have guessed chemistry, but it does fit.  Maybe it's related to why he's such a neat freak?  (e.g. he KNOWS what disgusting stuff was on the benches at the train station.)
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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #62 on: December 17, 2014, 11:52:40 PM »
I don't quite have a speculation to what subject Emil studied, but I'm assuming it was something nontraditional by the way he talks about the public school system on page 134, and how they were "pushing [him] away from academia." Of course, we don't know what they commonly teach in public schools in year 90, though...


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OrigamiOwl

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #63 on: December 18, 2014, 12:09:18 AM »
Heh! *shoves the fifty pages of rambling she's written on this topic at you* Frankly, my guess? Chemistry. Aside from the obvious (highly exothermic reactions ohoho!), it just seems... appropriate for him in a way that I can't quite put my finger on. Though I also considered something like music. I'd say piano, but I'd be shocked if any of those were still around. Violin, perhaps. And his somewhat, ahm, grandiloquent speaking style suggests an interest in literature as well.
Chemistry would fit! But it doesn't sound like something a well-to-do young gentleman could use to woo a well-to-do young lady-- if that's even one of the family's motives X'P
I would guess that maybe they taught it to him to humor him, not knowing he was actually so passionate about it- sort of like a folly? But then, is it a passion for science or a passion for seeing burny things make the boom boom? (<-- what even was that? I cried while typing that I'm so sorry) like, was it an attitude of "I'll show them!!" Or "FLAMES FLAMES FIRE FLAMES." That prompted him to join the cleansers? (Maybe both)
I would agree and speculate that Emil has read/studied some schmancy fancy classical literature, and maybe even written essays. Would he be interested in poetry? :0
Off on a tangent: if gambling because the family business, maybe Emil was taught the mathematics of chance and probability and financial stuff? Some of that kind of knowledge may help him assess dangerous situations as a Cleanser, but not in social situations ;P  haha he might be a maths whiz and we would never know. X'D

I don't quite have a speculation to what subject Emil studied, but I'm assuming it was something nontraditional by the way he talks about the public school system on page 134, and how they were "pushing [him] away from academia." Of course, we don't know what they commonly teach in public schools in year 90, though...
Yes! :3
I'd like to think that even just for comedic value, his academic specialty is something really obscure and specific, but might actually come into use during the Expedition.
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SeaAngel

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #64 on: December 18, 2014, 01:35:02 AM »
*snort* I'm talking "reasonably-intelligent" in terms of actual intelligence--I didn't say he has the slightest bit of common sense, because he clearly does not. In terms of intelligence I've got him pegged for slightly above average: he's clearly quite articulate in his native Swedish, and demonstrates a broad vocabulary and an ability to retain a lot of random information (as when he's playing tour guide for Tuuri). Plus he enjoys reading and academics, which is not something you enjoy if you aren't good at it. He's not near as bright a spark as, say, Tuuri, but he can keep up.

And oh yes, I've no doubt that his parents coddled him in one way or another--and all of the examples you gave would fit with Emil's personality and the very little we know about his parents. They just strike me as... hmm. Peculiarly neglectful. The two can--and often do--go together.

Oh, sorry, I measure 'actual intellgience' by the amount of common sense, and from what I've seen, he is a complete idiot. It's not just that he thought that his face was made from a different material than the rest of his body. He does a lot of thinks without THINKING first. He assumes things (which turn out to be wrong), speaks without thinking twice (and insults people in the process). Sure, when he tries his best to make a good impression he is a lot more careful, but it seems that when he relaxes, he just floats to his own stupid world and stops thinking.
These are all qualities that would lower his 'actual intelligence' as YOU mean it. He wouldn't ponder enough on any (test or not) question before answering it. He wouldn't try to see a problem from different points of view. He wouldn't see things collectively. He would make wrong assumptions. Sure, he may speak Swedish well, but being good in your native language does not make you 'slightly above average smart'. How is he in math? Physics? Other languages? Does he write poems?
Besides, the information he told Tuuri was about his native country and a city he had lived in for a large period of time. These are not signs of great memory. It seems Swedish are proud of their achievements in the post-rash world, and therefore quite natural that they tell their kids all the time how great they are. Emil would hear about these things very often.
I'm not sure why you assume he enjoyed reading and studying. Yes, he said that he is a 'brainiac', but I don't take his opinion seriously on the matter. I think he just meant that he is 'super smart', what with 'excelling with no effort at all'. 'Excelling with no effort at all' can mean two things: a) you are a freaking genius. In that case he would have continued excelling in the public school. b) Your teachers gave you straight A's for no reason. This seems more likely to me.

Also: when Emil stopped his country-bragging to ask about safety in Tuuri's home, I thought "wow, he is sensitive! He is clearly an idiot in other ways, but he is social-smart to recognise social cues and their hidden meaning! Wow!"
After telling Mikkel that basically "I'm not sure what you said, but what I understood was lousy" I reconstructed my point of view. He is an idiot in all ways! And I suspect that his own parents may have died, which made him more sensitive to recognise uncertainty and fear in the well-being of others' families... Hense realizing that Tuuri's... interest in safety came from actual experience.

Well, if his parents weren't neglectful, they would notice they were doing a lousy job, wouldn't they?
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OrigamiOwl

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #65 on: December 18, 2014, 02:20:37 AM »
Oh, sorry, I measure 'actual intellgience' by the amount of common sense, and from what I've seen, he is a complete idiot. It's not just that he thought that his face was made from a different material than the rest of his body. He does a lot of thinks without THINKING first. He assumes things (which turn out to be wrong), speaks without thinking twice (and insults people in the process). Sure, when he tries his best to make a good impression he is a lot more careful, but it seems that when he relaxes, he just floats to his own stupid world and stops thinking.
These are all qualities that would lower his 'actual intelligence' as YOU mean it. He wouldn't ponder enough on any (test or not) question before answering it. He wouldn't try to see a problem from different points of view. He wouldn't see things collectively. He would make wrong assumptions. Sure, he may speak Swedish well, but being good in your native language does not make you 'slightly above average smart'. How is he in math? Physics? Other languages? Does he write poems?
Besides, the information he told Tuuri was about his native country and a city he had lived in for a large period of time. These are not signs of great memory. It seems Swedish are proud of their achievements in the post-rash world, and therefore quite natural that they tell their kids all the time how great they are. Emil would hear about these things very often.
I'm not sure why you assume he enjoyed reading and studying. Yes, he said that he is a 'brainiac', but I don't take his opinion seriously on the matter. I think he just meant that he is 'super smart', what with 'excelling with no effort at all'. 'Excelling with no effort at all' can mean two things: a) you are a freaking genius. In that case he would have continued excelling in the public school. b) Your teachers gave you straight A's for no reason. This seems more likely to me.

Also: when Emil stopped his country-bragging to ask about safety in Tuuri's home, I thought "wow, he is sensitive! He is clearly an idiot in other ways, but he is social-smart to recognise social cues and their hidden meaning! Wow!"
After telling Mikkel that basically "I'm not sure what you said, but what I understood was lousy" I reconstructed my point of view. He is an idiot in all ways! And I suspect that his own parents may have died, which made him more sensitive to recognise uncertainty and fear in the well-being of others' families... Hense realizing that Tuuri's... interest in safety came from actual experience.

Well, if his parents weren't neglectful, they would notice they were doing a lousy job, wouldn't they?
Hehehe yeah. This is sadly probably certain. It was fun to hypothesize alternatives though ;)
I'm always reminded of that tale about the emperor-guy's new clothes...when there weren't actually any clothes. :/
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 02:24:16 AM by OrigamiOwl »
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SeaAngel

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #66 on: December 18, 2014, 02:40:03 AM »
Hehehe yeah. This is sadly probably certain. It was fun to hypothesize alternatives though ;)
I'm always reminded of that tale about the emperor-guy's new clothes...when there weren't actually any clothes. :/

Haha that story always confused me! Didn't the emperor even feel cold? XD  His stupidity was epic level! :P
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OrigamiOwl

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #67 on: December 18, 2014, 02:43:06 AM »
Haha that story always confused me! Didn't the emperor even feel cold? XD  His stupidity was epic level! :P
He probably thought the clothes were super fancy airy fabric, the best money could buy ;3
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hushpiper

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #68 on: December 18, 2014, 03:43:43 AM »

Eh, we're gonna have to agree to disagree here. As I said before, I do NOT equate intelligence with common sense, either in this situation or in general. I've seen a lot of very smart people--several of my siblings come to mind--act very, very stupid in a large range of situations. I've seen those same idiotic siblings catch on to complicated physics concepts with breathtaking speed. Intelligence and common sense just do not necessarily come together. Thinking before you speak or act, for example, shows that you are a cautious and sensible person, not that you are a genius. In short--book smart ain't the same as street smart. So no, none of those qualities you listed would lower his "actual intelligence" in my mind, any more than they would for a real person. People are a lot more complicated than that.

As for the other: I assume he enjoyed reading and studying because, from his own descriptions, he intended to spend the rest of his life doing it. I don't know what his tutors were teaching him, but unless it involved no actual books or research or studying at all, I'm gonna assume he stuck with it for so long because he genuinely enjoyed that sort of thing. And given that the comic has no answers to questions like whether he writes poetry or how good his memory retention is on topics not related to how awesome Sweden is, I'm going to take the information we do have and interpret in a way that both fits the story so far and makes me happier than the alternatives.

But I have a counter question for you: why are you assuming, when he says he was a genius and excelled "with no effort at all", that he personally believes that to be true? Couldn't he just as easily be, for example, playing things up and exaggerating his own excellence in order to impress the people around him, as we've seen him do over and over and over throughout the comic so far? It would fit his personality and behavior just as well if not better.

SeaAngel

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #69 on: December 18, 2014, 05:00:42 AM »
Eh, we're gonna have to agree to disagree here. As I said before, I do NOT equate intelligence with common sense, either in this situation or in general. I've seen a lot of very smart people--several of my siblings come to mind--act very, very stupid in a large range of situations. I've seen those same idiotic siblings catch on to complicated physics concepts with breathtaking speed. Intelligence and common sense just do not necessarily come together. Thinking before you speak or act, for example, shows that you are a cautious and sensible person, not that you are a genius. In short--book smart ain't the same as street smart. So no, none of those qualities you listed would lower his "actual intelligence" in my mind, any more than they would for a real person. People are a lot more complicated than that.

As for the other: I assume he enjoyed reading and studying because, from his own descriptions, he intended to spend the rest of his life doing it. I don't know what his tutors were teaching him, but unless it involved no actual books or research or studying at all, I'm gonna assume he stuck with it for so long because he genuinely enjoyed that sort of thing. And given that the comic has no answers to questions like whether he writes poetry or how good his memory retention is on topics not related to how awesome Sweden is, I'm going to take the information we do have and interpret in a way that both fits the story so far and makes me happier than the alternatives.

But I have a counter question for you: why are you assuming, when he says he was a genius and excelled "with no effort at all", that he personally believes that to be true? Couldn't he just as easily be, for example, playing things up and exaggerating his own excellence in order to impress the people around him, as we've seen him do over and over and over throughout the comic so far? It would fit his personality and behavior just as well if not better.

Yep, agree to disagree. I disagree with everything that you said in this post XD I'm glad for your sibilings, but thinking before you act means that you recognize the possibility of more options and of unforseen consequences. In my book, someone who usually does not think at all before acting (provided he does not have experience or some other sort of knowledge that allows him to make good decisions without much thinking) is a special kind of idiot.
If you want to believe that Emil is actually smart, though, go ahead, I won't stop you :P Until it becomes clear which one of us is right in the comic, agree to disagree :-)
[Plus there is always the possibility that he inteded to spend the rest of his life studying because he never made any decisions for himself? Or because it was the easy way to spend his time? Or because he didn't care since he had money? Remember, he said that he succeded with no effort at all. Someone who is interested in something DOES put more efforts in it.]

Well, I believe he believed it simply because we haven't seen him lying. Not once. He didn't even lie about the giant he punched in the face. This is exactly what happened. He didn't cower in front of the giant. He didn't pass out. He didn't run away. He didn't shove Lalli in it's face as a barrier. He punched it in one of its faces! And he didn't embellish the story. He didn't say he 'bravely' punched it, or that 'he didn't feel any fear at all', while it would be very easy for him to do so. I simply do not think he is a liar. Contrast Mikkel and Sigrun.
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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #70 on: December 18, 2014, 09:19:10 AM »
I'd like to think that even just for comedic value, his academic specialty is something really obscure and specific, but might actually come into use during the Expedition.
Sounds like macroeconomics, aeronautics and spacecraft design, and "irgendwas mit Medien", then. :P
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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #71 on: December 18, 2014, 09:49:38 AM »
Quote
Eh, we're gonna have to agree to disagree here. As I said before, I do NOT equate intelligence with common sense, either in this situation or in general. I've seen a lot of very smart people--several of my siblings come to mind--act very, very stupid in a large range of situations. I've seen those same idiotic siblings catch on to complicated physics concepts with breathtaking speed. Intelligence and common sense just do not necessarily come together. Thinking before you speak or act, for example, shows that you are a cautious and sensible person, not that you are a genius. In short--book smart ain't the same as street smart. So no, none of those qualities you listed would lower his "actual intelligence" in my mind, any more than they would for a real person. People are a lot more complicated than that.

Very good point. I would like to point out that social skills are also something separate. In fact, it's a learned skill and most "intelligent" people have none. My brother, for instance is really smart and catches on to things in school really fast in addition to having a lot of common sense. Unfortunately, he has no tact at all and is only now making friends for the first time as a ten year old. My sister on the other hand is one of those really-popular middle school girls and she's also really intelligent. Her lack of common sense tends to mask her smarts, however...

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #72 on: December 18, 2014, 10:54:38 AM »
Seems to me that a lot of this discussion hinged on what we mean by "intelligent". A lot of people think it is synonymous with "intellectual", others think it has to be more general than that and must include "common sense". My definitions would be:

Intelligent: Covers the full gamut; Intelligent people have a facility with complex abstract concepts, common sense, social aptitude, and general life management (managing money, doing the laundry, turning up on time, putting on socks). You don't have to excel at any one area to be intelligent (as I define intelligent) but truly intelligent people cope with all of them, and can excel at any they put the effort into.
Intellectual: Applies to people who have an aptitude for academic pursuits and can cope with complex abstract concepts, but not necessarily able to put on their socks, manage their finances or cope with social interactions.
Common sense: Covers normal day-to-day thinking and social interaction, but doesn't have to include academic or abstract thinking.
Clever: Refers to facility (but not necessarily excellence) in any one limited field. A con-man can be a clever liar, a footballer can be clever with his feet, a quiz competitor can be clever with his memory.

Those are my definitions!

Back to Emil: we have yet to see how his abilities truly pan out. We know he has a high opinion of his academic abilities and he suggests his parents felt the same, and we see (repeatedly) that he can be quick to criticise and fails to think the criticism through. This is perhaps more to do with his emotional balance than his intellectual capacity: he suffers from a very fragile and over-inflated ego and perhaps somewhat poor impulse-control. He is anxious, so he tries to large himself up and put others down. This is so typical of many young men!

At the same time he is caring and - when in a situation where he feels confident - friendly and kind. He is also capable of bravery.

He first of all needs to learn to keep his mouth shut when he is uncertain of what has just been said, and he also needs to achieve something that will toughen up his fragile ego. Perhaps Mikkel really does need to give him a knock or two; and Emil needs to do something worthwhile! I hope that with a few rough edges knocked off and some genuine achievements under his belt he might turn into a very worthy person.
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SeaAngel

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #73 on: December 18, 2014, 12:23:53 PM »


Very well explained, Richard! This will make things easier!
Well, the way I see it, Emil is not intellectual and lacks common sense.
hushpiper believes he is intellectual. Am I getting this right? :-)
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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #74 on: December 18, 2014, 12:27:20 PM »
This is perhaps more to do with his emotional balance than his intellectual capacity: he suffers from a very fragile and over-inflated ego and perhaps somewhat poor impulse-control. He is anxious, so he tries to large himself up and put others down. This is so typical of many young men!

This is EXACTLY my impression of Emil. Thank you for putting it so well.
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