Author Topic: Linguistics  (Read 65172 times)

Hrollo

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Re: Rollo's linguistic and grammar Q&A open thread thing
« Reply #225 on: October 22, 2015, 05:44:51 PM »
I don't know if you all had seen this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages#Diachronic

It's a diagram of the evolution of Germanic languages.


I wanted to do a similar one for Romance languages for a while. So I did, but it went a bit overboard:

http://thelegion.free.fr/italic_languages.htm
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olavi

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Re: Rollo's linguistic and grammar Q&A open thread thing
« Reply #226 on: October 23, 2015, 06:49:36 PM »
I don't know if you all had seen this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages#Diachronic

It's a diagram of the evolution of Germanic languages.


I wanted to do a similar one for Romance languages for a while. So I did, but it went a bit overboard:

http://thelegion.free.fr/italic_languages.htm

That Germanic table has been my favorite piece of Wiki for a while now. I knew what the link was even before clicking it. :D

Some time ago inspired by it I made a similar (very simple) one of Romance languages for my private notebook: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11761721/romance.jpg

I'm almost ashamed to post the link as obviously yours is about 9000 times better. Have you considered sharing your knowledge and skills by adding your table to Wikipedia too? Because I think you should! In case you're not familiar with the Mediawiki format you can easily convert your html to the wiki format with a tool like this.
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Hrollo

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Re: Rollo's linguistic and grammar Q&A open thread thing
« Reply #227 on: October 24, 2015, 01:38:35 AM »
Well, the problem with putting this on wikipedia is that it would probably get flagged as "original research"; there's a lot of uncertainty about the internal classification and the history of the romance languages, and some of the things on this table are, at best, educated guesses. So this shouldn't be considered a definitive and authoritative reference on the history of romance languages, merely an attempt to synthetise some of the avalaible theories into a diagram.
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olavi

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Re: Rollo's linguistic and grammar Q&A open thread thing
« Reply #228 on: October 24, 2015, 07:59:37 AM »
That's always a problem with classifying marginal or extinct languages, but I don't think that would be a insurmountably obstacle if those uncertainties are properly marked. Like in that Germanic table: Note 1 is "There are conflicting opinions on the classification of Lombardic. It has also been classified as close to Old Saxon."

It's a lot of work definitely. Maybe there's a wikiproject that could help with this?
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Auleliel

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Re: Rollo's linguistic and grammar Q&A open thread thing
« Reply #229 on: October 27, 2015, 11:20:58 PM »
I'm working on one of my conlangs and I want to include consonant mutation in compounds, and maybe also some vowel changes, and I am wondering if there are general trends for this or if it's random for each language. Most of the languages I know seem to have similar trends but that could easily be coincidence.
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Hrollo

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Re: Rollo's linguistic and grammar Q&A open thread thing
« Reply #230 on: October 28, 2015, 04:11:46 AM »
I think the key is to understand how these changes come about in real languages.

What usually happens is that a phonetic change happens which creates the beginning of a pattern, and then speakers pick up on the pattern and regularize/systematize it to more words (all of this unconsciously of course).

Here's a fictional example to visualize:

Imagine a language that has the following:
i — definite article, "the"
tau — "cat"
-s — mark of genitive/possessive ("of")
-k — mark of dative ("to")
-m — mark of instrumental/commitative ("with")

So you get the following paradigm:

i tau — "the cat"
is taus — "of the cat"
ik tauk — "to the cat"
im taum — "with the cat"

Then the following changes happen: if t is preceded by a vowel, it lenites to d; if it's preceded by a fricative (like s) it spirantizes to þ; and if it's preceded by a nasal (like m) it nasalizes to n.

So now we get:

i dau
is þaus
ik tauk
im naum

And now let's add a further change: final consonants are lost; and so we get:
i dau
i þau
i tau
i nau

And we have created an initial consonant mutation pattern! This is, in a simplified way, more or less what happened in the celtic languages.

Vowel changes operate by the same logic. In Germanic language, a widespread change was the i-umlaut: the vowels a o u changed to ä/æ ö/ø ü/y when the next syllabled contained an i or a y/j.

So for instance, in the proto-germanic language, the word for "foot" was "fots" in the singular nominative and "fotiz" in the plural nominative. The "i" in the second vowel colored the "o" in the first, and was then later lost or weakened, leading to the following alternations in the modern languages:
German: Fuß — Füße
Yiddish: fus — fis*
Swedish: fot — fötter
English: foot — feet*
Icelandic: fótur — fætur*

*: Yiddish, English and Icelandic were later affected by other vowel changes which changed the pattern, but didn't erase it.


So the best way to replicate this in a conlang is to look up for the "sound changes" of real languages and see what they did — yes, this can be quite a lot of research, but realism in conlang comes at a price. Wikipedia has quite a lot of things on the subject:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_change
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_umlaut
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonant_mutation


While doing these changes, it's important to keep in mind that languages don't simply let these changes accumulate without control: there is always a great deal of analogy going on, that is, forms and paradigms are made more regular in order to try to fit patterns.

Here's an example of what analogy can do, with the evolution of Latin to Italian verbs.

Here's a bunch of Latin verbs, in 1st person singular, 2nd person singular, and 3rd person singular and plural:

(to be)

sum
es
est
sunt

(to have)

habeo
habes
habet
habent

(to sing)

canto
cantas
cantat
cantant

(to fear)

timeo
times
timet
timent

(to sleep)

dormio
dormis
dormit
dormiunt


While there are some irregularities, there also clearly are patterns going on. Now, if we'd just apply the known sound changes from Latin to Italian to these forms, without anything else, here's what we would get:

son
ei
è
son

ho
hai
ha
han

canto
cante
canta
canta

temio
temi
teme
teme

dormio
dormi
dorme
dormio

That is less functional, so instead the following changes occured:
An -o was added to the first person singular form of "to be", by analogy with the other verbs. To preserve the symetry, it was added to the third person plural too. So now both forms looked like "sono".

From this, a new pattern was created: the new form "-no" was taken as new third person plural marker and applied to all verbs. Like wise, the -i which shows up in many of the verbs was reanalysed as a second person marker, and applied to all verbs.

The forms in -io were simplified to -o, and the paradigms of "to fear" and "to sleep" were remodelled to become more like each other.

Finally, the second person form of "to be" got prefixed with s- to be more similar to the 1sg and 3pl forms.

So now we get the actual Italian verbs:

sono
sei
è
sono

ho
hai
ha
hanno

canto
canti
canta
cantano

temo
temi
teme
temono

dormo
dormi
dorme
dormono

And now there are much more obvious patterns.


So to sum it up: apply sound changes, look for resulting patterns and regularize/extend those patterns. Good luck!

Edit: I should add, you don't necessarily have to literally, concretely do all these steps — coming up with a convincing explanation for the current state of the language and explaining things that do not fit by "analogy" is often enough.

Basically any vowel/consonant change for which you can think of a possible underlying/historical mechanism that is attested in real language can be considered realistic.
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Auleliel

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Re: Rollo's linguistic and grammar Q&A open thread thing
« Reply #231 on: October 28, 2015, 04:58:59 AM »
Thanks, Rollo. Your explanation is very helpful!
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Re: The importance of correct umlauts
« Reply #232 on: November 17, 2015, 11:23:53 PM »
Resurrecting this thread because I think this is a good topic, and it reminded me of a discussion Laufey, Haiz, and I had about the näkki lallis. Laufey told us that while näkki was the creature everyone was drawing, nakki is a sausage. This lead to speculation on sausage Lallis and some reminiscing on the dood leordie in which lalli sneaks up on a hotdog  :D
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Ana Nymus

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Re: The importance of correct umlauts
« Reply #233 on: November 17, 2015, 11:41:11 PM »
* Ana Nymus imagines a näkki nakki

That's... somehow oddly terrifying. The alluring sausage song...
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Krisse Kovacs

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Re: The importance of correct umlauts
« Reply #234 on: November 18, 2015, 01:34:41 AM »
OOOH, this, there are many hungarian words, that means something without dots or lines or whatever on them. also if you even pronounce these wrong, it could mean else because of that.
we don't have ä but we have many else.

a-á
~talál - tálal (finds - make table ready for eat (?))

e-é
~fél - fel (is scared - up)
~él - el (lives - away)
~felél - felel (lives up (?) - answers)

o-ö
~török - torok (turkish - throat)
~dörömböl - dorombol (knocks violently - purrs)

ó-ő
~lő - ló (shoots - horse)

usually it is is not that important between i-í, o-ó, ö-ő, u-ú, ü-ű, because they are literally only the "longer versions" with the comma like thing on them.
however I know ONE word where it is really important:
~megörül - megőrül (gets happy (for something) - goes crazy)

I am sure there are tons of words but I cannot remember any at the moment.
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Laufey

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Re: The importance of correct umlauts
« Reply #235 on: November 18, 2015, 02:26:28 AM »
reminiscing on the dood leordie in which lalli sneaks up on a hotdog  :D



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But yes, Finnish is dangerous like that, the umlauts are important. Sometimes all that makes the difference between looking at things and doing something unnecessarily amorous to the same things is whether you use an ä or an a. Like so:

Näin appelsiineja. = I saw oranges.
Nain appelsiineja. = I f-ed oranges.

Likewise - although now I'm getting a bit OT - the length of vowels matters too, just like in Martti's Hungarian example: Tuuri is a name (and as a word it means "luck"), turri basically means "hairy" and is a slang word for furries.
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Krisse Kovacs

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Re: The importance of correct umlauts
« Reply #236 on: November 18, 2015, 03:42:26 AM »
But yes, Finnish is dangerous like that, the umlauts are important. Sometimes all that makes the difference between looking at things and doing something unnecessarily amorous to the same things is whether you use an ä or an a. Like so:

Näin appelsiineja. = I saw oranges.
Nain appelsiineja. = I f-ed oranges.

Likewise - although now I'm getting a bit OT - the length of vowels matters too, just like in Martti's Hungarian example: Tuuri is a name (and as a word it means "luck"), turri basically means "hairy" and is a slang word for furries.

finnish is dangerous, yes xD
and fav example on finnish with longer sounds is the
tapaan sinut illalla - tapan sinut illalla
but these are not vowels xD
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Laufey

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Re: The importance of correct umlauts
« Reply #237 on: November 18, 2015, 06:23:23 AM »
tapaan sinut illalla - tapan sinut illalla

Ahahahahah yes, that would be dangerous indeed. :D

Tapaan sinut illalla = I'll meet you in the evening.
Tapan sinut illalla = I'll kill you in the evening.
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Re: The importance of correct umlauts
« Reply #238 on: November 18, 2015, 01:08:12 PM »
In Russian there is a sort of similar problem. The letters Ё (yo) and Е (eh) are used pretty interchangeably in print despite having totally different pronunciation. The diacritic isn't written outside of dictionaries and children's books, leaving everyone else to determine from the context if the word is  все ( vse = "everybody") or всё ( vsyo = "everything").

There's some call now to go back to printing it all the time as they used to, especially for translation and legal purposes, but it doesn't seem to have wide adoption yet, mostly up to the author.
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Hrollo

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Re: Rollo's linguistic and grammar Q&A open thread thing
« Reply #239 on: November 21, 2015, 04:52:52 PM »
A map (not done by me) of historical dialect groups (not individual dialects, and not necessarily corresponding to the modern language) of Scandinavian:

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