Character Development: Lalli

[starfallz]

I remember reading about a slightly different version of the bear hunt ritual.

Ooh, okay. That version would make sense. The one I had read about has the head mounted on a pine but didn't mention what would happen to the rest of the bear.

[Fauna]

Body parts as magical instruments turns up in many shamanic traditions. In my Western Celtic tradition it's usually a harp or similar musical instrument made from skull or ribs or breastbone, often strung with hair. Though it can also be a bone flute or whistle, or a skin drum. In the New Guinea highlands it can be a drum or a rattle, or again a bone flute. It turns up in a lot of the old ballads, in the Celtic countries.

Oooooh, that skull harp sounds very interesting. Do you have any sources on that? I would love to keep reading bout it, but a quick google yielded very little.. I am having some difficulties imagining how such a harp would be put together tbh.

[Róisín]

You could start with the Child ballads ( nothing to do with children, but the name of the collector). They should be online. Look up ballads like 'Binnorie' and 'The Twa Sisters'. Child usually groups together songs with similar origins, or developed from the same original song, so that should lead you to others.

Another site to try is Mudcat Cafe, mudcat.org. which also collects folksongs. I'd post links, but that is a magic I am far from mastering! I have enough trouble with the internet in general.

Kalevala has the account of Väinämöinen making his kantele. Margaret Hodges did an article 'The Haunted Harp'. 'The Singing Bone' is in Grimm's Fairy Tales, though the instrument there is a pipe or horn. Claire Booss wrote a book 'Murder Will Out' which has a section on Scandinavian folk and fairy tales, as well as the Scottish ones from which 'Binnorie' comes.

The place to search further might be anthropology and the development of early instruments rather than music alone.

Edit: sometimes the old tales use 'harp' for something we'd think of as more like an original kantele or lyre, with strings stretched across a skull or along a bone.

[Mélusine]

Interesting question-without-answer by a friend : if Lalli really made a big mistake (alone in responsibility or not, we don't have enough information now) as a young night scout, how explaining he's still a night scout today ?

[Ana Nymus]

Interesting question-without-answer by a friend : if Lalli really made a big mistake (alone in responsibility or not, we don't have enough information now) as a young night scout, how explaining he's still a night scout today ?

Possibly because he was so young? I don't know that I'd ban a 13-year-old from a job forever, even if he were at fault. I'd expect him to go through some major retraining, though, and it explains his reaction to failure in Y90.

[Solovei]

Interesting question-without-answer by a friend : if Lalli really made a big mistake (alone in responsibility or not, we don't have enough information now) as a young night scout, how explaining he's still a night scout today ?

We don't know what the minimum age for Finland's military is, but since it's 13 for the Cleansers, we can assume it's similar? (If Lalli is 13 and he's already scouting, it's either that or younger). It could be that they're so short on people that they're willing to keep him on because they need the numbers.

[Laufey]

We don't know what the minimum age for Finland's military is, but since it's 13 for the Cleansers, we can assume it's similar? (If Lalli is 13 and he's already scouting, it's either that or younger). It could be that they're so short on people that they're willing to keep him on because they need the numbers.

If we assume that, then we can take into account the way Finnish mages are trained: they have an older mage train them. It would help a lot to know whether a scout also has to be a mage by default, but if so, that would mean that Lalli wasn't night-scouting alone but with a senior mage.

I'm just saying I hope Onni doesn't decide to shoulder the responsibility.

[Mélusine]

I'm just saying I hope Onni doesn't decide to shoulder the responsibility.

Actually we spoke about that point too before agreeing on the fact Lalli's name must be on the sheet, so it would be difficult for Onni to blame himself for a night scout's work.

[Solovei]

If we assume that, then we can take into account the way Finnish mages are trained: they have an older mage train them. It would help a lot to know whether a scout also has to be a mage by default, but if so, that would mean that Lalli wasn't night-scouting alone but with a senior mage.

I'm just saying I hope Onni doesn't decide to shoulder the responsibility.

Well, that may explain Onni's absense from this page - he's not a scout or a skald, just a mage, so he has no busines being there (though he may come running later). I think Mages are mages and scouts are scouts, and you can be both but you don't have to be

Given Onni's paralyzing fear of the silent world, I highly doubt he'd volunteer for scout duty

[Helia]

just discovered Minna's response on the topic of Lalli and autism:
page 383

I've decided to leave the reasons behind most of Lalli's "peculiar" behaviour patterns up for everyone's personal interpretation rather than put a label on him one way or the other (it's not like he'd ever be diagnosed with anything in the comic), but I'm really glad to hear you've enjoyed his characterization. ^_^

[Sunflower]

From the Disqus comments to p. 397:

amrothsirfalas • 3 days ago
Quite something for someone "having very little training in being a mage". Lalli should update his LinkedIn portfolio. Or he might end up like certain doc, doing those lame contracts in the middle of his 30s

random  Jessica K. • 3 days ago
Maybe 'very little training' is meant in contrast to those who are full-time mages (who'd be goddamn powerhouses if THIS is what a little-trained mage can do). Lalli's primary job is night scouting, so even if his knowledge isn't negligible, in comparison to someone entirely dedicated to practising magic he still wouldn't have that much magical training. I do wonder if whoever trained him as a scout was also a mage, of if he had to piece both scouting and magic together by himself; I can definitely imagine Onni teaching him all kinds of defensive spells for increasing his chances at survival in such a dangerous job.
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LooNEY_DAC  random • 3 days ago
I can imagine Lalli huffily ignoring more or less anything Onni tried to teach him for some time after The Flashback, in a "he thinks I can't do my job better than anyone else already" mindset.
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random  LooNEY_DAC • 3 days ago
True, that, and very fitting! But I like to imagine Onni's fretting over his little cousin when he first starts going solo on his missions. Because I enjoy suffering like that.

[snotra]

Does the lack of training perhaps indicate lack of control rather than a lack of power?

[FinnishViking]

Does the lack of training perhaps indicate lack of control rather than a lack of power?

Depends i guess,

If the power would be something one can muster from ones inside then the nosebleed could be the indication of the lack of training while the spell would remain just as powerlful, but just a bit more uncontrollable. 

On the other hand the spells could be something taught and learned by anyone eager enough and then the formal training would be the most important bit.

I think in SSSS the powers of a mage are determined by their natural ability and as such Lalli can pull off far grander stunts than others, but is in more of risk of selfharm or misfire because he can't fully control his abilities. I think everyone could in theory learn magic, but someone like Emil would most likely have a hard time casting even the tiniest of sparks.

[Laufey]

I think in SSSS the powers of a mage are determined by their natural ability and as such Lalli can pull off far grander stunts than others, but is in more of risk of selfharm or misfire because he can't fully control his abilities. I think everyone could in theory learn magic, but someone like Emil would most likely have a hard time casting even the tiniest of sparks.

Agreeing with this... it looks like a mage's talent-level is one thing but skill-level quite another, which would tie with the traditional idea as well. Untrained, you can have all the talent in the world but it's not going to be very useful whereas training makes even a little talent somewhat useful. To compare, a mage with great talent but little training would stand no chance against a mage with mediocre talent but good training.

As a good example of an untrained mage we have Reynir barging into people's safe-spaces in the dreaming. He can technically speaking do some mage-stuff but he doesn't know how to use the talent or what to use it for.

[Róisín]

I think you both have good points. In many systems of our-world magic an untrained major natural ability is considered a hindrance rather than useful, because the untrained klutz can go stumbling through the working spaces of others, unwittingly breaking delicate structures, or messing up the fine energy flows of natural strongplaces, or worst of all , calling to themselves something really dangerous without intending to do so. I see no reason why things should be different in the Minnaverse.