Author Topic: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work  (Read 40593 times)

thorny

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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #285 on: July 18, 2023, 12:59:23 PM »
Most of them don't even seem to be individuals at all; and when one does do something as an individual, the story doesn't follow that character in any way. Is there any connection between the current rabbits and the ones earlier in the story, or are they an entirely different group of rabbits? I can't even tell.

Do any of them even have names?

Maybe Minna thinks that there's no such thing as individuals in an allegory, and so isn't trying to write them.

ETA: yeah, I think making them anthromorphs would have solved some of the problems; but not all of them. And it might have created a new batch -- the very beginning of this work might have seemed even odder that way.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2023, 01:01:48 PM by thorny »

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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #286 on: July 18, 2023, 02:50:24 PM »
Disclaimer: Other than Lovely People I have not read Ms. Sundberg's christian comics.  I'm getting my info on these from these forum threads.

I've found the commentary about the problems of using animals as the characters in this story to be very interesting.

So, thinking aloud,  I wonder if using Furries/Anthromorphs in place of real animal species could have avoided many of these technical problems?

Yes, I'm speaking as an unrepentant Furry.  ;)

My IMHO - yes. It would dealt with a lot of problems, that plagued "Journey Upstream". With anthropomorphic animals, there wouldn't be puzzling problems like "how animals without opposite thumbs managed to make metal armor and leather bags", and their behavior would not be so problematic.

Unremarkabillionaire

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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #287 on: September 05, 2023, 03:23:40 AM »
Hello,

I'm new to this forum, and I am jettisoning a number of thoughts about Ms. Sundberg's work, if only because I see no better place than this thread.

Unlike the average member of the forum, I discovered Sundberg's work through Lovely People when it was linked in a Discord server (of all places) sometime in 2021.  I'm a Christian (and have been for all my life), and my initial thought was that LP was a beautifully illustrated but imperfect work.  I also thought to myself that the author may have been a recent convert to Christianity (which, as I later found, was true).

Since LP was intentionally fanciful, I see no reason to criticize LP for its art-style or world-building, but as others have pointed out, its plot was flawed due to its shift towards Christianity as the only victim of "Not Amazon's" dystopia.  It seems that Sundberg had several main ideas that she attempted to express: firstly, that blind escapism through consumerism and online attention-seeking is empty; secondly, that certain groups would seek to exploit the tendency towards consumerism for their own gain; and thirdly, that the Christian faith is the best solution to the problem of human meaninglessness.

Due to my view of the world, I agree with all three of those statements, but their presentation in LP is, unfortunately, cluttered.  Perhaps a greater number of pages might have allowed for those themes to be more coherent; however, I appreciated the "core" message of holding fast to one's beliefs, even to the point of personal loss.
 
All that being said, I was intrigued enough by LP that I might have gone through the rabbit-trail of Sundberg's works then, had the page which hosted LP contained any more information about its author.  At the time, it didn't, so I mostly forgot about Lovely People altogether, though some of its examples of consumerism remained with me.

Recently, I came across A Meandering Line in much the same way as before, but I now recognized its author as the person who "drew that interesting comic with the rabbits."  Contrary to many of the posters here, I enjoyed that comic quite a lot!  My viewpoint was surely different that that of the long-time readers of Sundberg's previous work; since I was merely perusing what remained after the fact, my opinion was not colored by prior experience with aRTD or SSSS.  Nonetheless, I appreciated Sundberg's tendency for honesty in A Meandering Line, since it honestly dealt with problems that were actually relevant to human beings (not to mention that *anyone* would need courage to write about their own thoughts in that much detail with their own name attached).  I still think that the art is lovely; even though the level of detail is lower than in Sundberg's previous works, her art is cleaner (in my opinion) and very expressive.

To summarize that soup of words, I unashamedly like A Meandering Line, though I wouldn't hand it to a child to read.

After reading those two works, I discovered and read Journey Upstream, aRTD, and SSSS, in that order.  To briefly summarize my thoughts:

Journey Upstream is a nice allegorical work, although it makes little to no sense outside of that context.  Due to its nature, I think that as the story progresses, the characters will indeed turn out to be "shallow," but unlike certain posters here, I am not bothered by this.  It's a fair tactic in metaphorical writing to make characters into archetypes; unlike more "novel-like" works, their entire purpose is to be recognized and extrapolated into the real world.  Since JU's character page names quite a few characters that haven't seen any dialogue, I expect Sundberg to represent simplified "archetypes" of people through the different animals.  It is still too early, I think, to judge the work, but I expect that I will cherish it, if it is written well to the end.

aRTD is lovely and cozily paced.  Its usage of Finnish folklore intrigued me, and I enjoyed the cast of characters in the story.  I loved the art, the story, the length, and most everything about it.

SSSS contains my favorite work of world-building by anyone not named Tolkien.  Its cast of characters was fantastic, its plot was meticulous, and its story hooks were fascinating.  I do understand why readers would be disappointed in its abridged ending, though.  Even though the story feels incomplete, it is to Sundberg's credit that she did not cripple the setting in an attempt to hastily conclude the series.  It's as if it left off in a good place, so to speak, and while I don't want to needlessly speculate, I would not mind seeing Sundberg revisit the setting someday.

The above post is probably a horrid mess of formatting and a grotesque patch-work of ideas, and I have not said all that I wanted to say, but I am posting anyways because I want to contribute my own thoughts into the discussion of Sundberg's work.  My impression of certain opinions here (and please note that I am not trying to attack anyone) was that "Minna was a good writer, and then she 'picked up' christianity and trashed everything," and that doesn't seem fair to the merit that I see in her work.

Please correct me if there are any glaring holes in my thinking.
:]

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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #288 on: September 05, 2023, 09:08:52 AM »
Hiya! Thanks for sharing your thoughts here.

It's definitely interesting to hear the perspective of someone who found SSSS through Lovely People. I'm glad to hear that like many of us here, you also really enjoyed the characters and worldbuilding in SSSS.

It's also interesting to hear both your criticisms and the positive points you raise about LP and Minna's other new works, particularly from a Christian perspective. I'm not particularly in the mood to re-read LP at the moment, having done my fair share of analytical reading already today for my multiple university assignments, but I will say that you raise a good point about one of LP's biggest weaknesses (from a storytelling perspective) being its cluttered nature.

I do agree that Minna put a lot of her personal struggles and thoughts on display in 'A Meandering Line', and that does take a certain amount of courage. While I do not personally agree with the position Minna has ended up in, having had a moderately painful departure from Christianity myself, I do hope that the community and purpose that can be found in some Church communities might help her to be in a better place mentally and socially. I know her very hardcore 4 pages a week SSSS update schedule was often a source of concern for her wellbeing in the SSSS fandom.

That's about all I have to say on this topic, but since this post may re-ignite some activity on this thread, I want to remind everyone to stay civil, listen to others' perspectives and properly read others' points before you engage with them.
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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #289 on: September 05, 2023, 11:34:24 AM »
Thank you, Unremarkabillionaire! Like Keep, I found it extremely interesting to read your views.

Also I have to say I’m relieved that you found SSSS via LP, read it, and liked it. I think a bug part of the shock to the SSSS fandom at the time LP dropped was the extreme surprise - people went blind into it thinking ok sweet future bunnies, and bam Bible to the head. Considering how there were several people who for various reasons would never have read it if they’d known, it was not considered a good way of presenting the comic to us. Anyways there was some arguing in SSSS comment section and for a while we weren’t worried there might be an unmanageable influx of people who would hate SSSS for magic and old gods. Luckily it was a completely unfounded worry! Anyways it’s great getting you here via the mew comics.

I think it’s very valuable for us and for this discussion to get your perspective on both the new work and the old. On the religious works, coming to them from the outside of the SSSS fandom and simultaneously as an insider, if you will, as a Christian, your views are definitely very different than e.g. mine. For me the clumsy metaphors of both LP and JU are just flat. The Meandering Line was for me a lot better, and like you say it’s also a very brave work.

I think I have more but I now have a mild headache so have to stop here. In any case, I’m glad you have re-opened the discussion! And for what it’s worth, I didn’t find your message confusing or horrid at the least :)

BTW there is an Introduction thread in the General board, if you’d like to go there and say hi. It’s not an obligation, just fun :)
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Unremarkabillionaire

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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #290 on: September 05, 2023, 04:32:22 PM »
Thank you for your thoughtful reply!

On the religious works, coming to them from the outside of the SSSS fandom and simultaneously as an insider, if you will, as a Christian, your views are definitely very different than e.g. mine. For me the clumsy metaphors of both LP and JU are just flat.

I suspect that this is just because I am the type of person that the metaphor was written for.

Skimming through Journey Upstream, I find the metaphors like that of the dying spring to represent the Christian idea of a "fallen world" fairly clearly.  I also enjoyed the metaphor of the natural signs that were given to "the animals" to remind them of the new garden instead making them discomforted and encouraging them to flee farther.

The general image of life as a path leading either to or away from the Celestial Lamb (obviously representative of the Christian God) is a strong one, I think (I am reminded of similar themes in the writings of C.S. Lewis, for instance), but I also have an existing religious viewpoint that is similar to Ms. Sundberg's.  The story's details read more like a reminder than an attempt to persuade, if that makes sense.

That said, if I had read Journey Upstream without my particular perspective, I would have seen the story as little more than a hackneyed hodge-podge of mismatching metaphors.  It'd have been lost on me, and I would probably have just shrugged my shoulders and moved on to something else.  I feel much the same way about Lovely People.  It's as if the metaphors in Sundberg's later work are better at reiterating beliefs already known to the reader than teaching anything new.

I'd like to add one more thing (that I forgot to say in my last post) and say that I believe that Sundberg's usage of the actual medium of comics has matured over time, in comparison to SSSS.  The latter, in my opinion, sometimes fell into a repetitive arrangement of panels that made following quick scenes difficult, despite the fidelity of the art itself.  The opening act (prologue?) of Journey Upstream has brilliant placement and pacing of the actual scenes, even if the reader dislikes the plot or art direction.  However, this may have just been a side effect of SSSS' release schedule (I can't draw a single thing; how on earth did she put out that many pages for that long a time?).

Thanks again for both of your responses.
:]

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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #291 on: September 05, 2023, 04:56:43 PM »
*waves at Unremarkabillionaire*  I am delighted that you shared your thoughts here, and made such cogent points!  I echo Jitter & Keep's thoughts, and share the relief that fans such as yourself can add greatly to our discussions.
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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #292 on: September 05, 2023, 10:09:03 PM »
Hello and welcome, unremarkabillionaire. My own perspective is different again, being an older woman and a lifetime Pagan from a large family that includes Pagans, Christians of several kinds, Jews and people of no religious belief.

Your views are interesting and well expressed. Hopefully the discussion can continue while remaining courteous and informative. My own objections were to Minna’s attitude of believing that she was totally and unarguably right, and that everyone who believed otherwise was doomed and damned to hell. And to the level of condescension and discourtesy with which that view was presented.

Have you read ‘The Screwtape Letters’ by CS Lewis? Even better, his Space trilogy, ‘Out of the Silent Planet’, ‘Perelandra’, also called ‘Voyage to Venus’ and the third novel ‘That Hideous Strength’? Brilliant books, and an interesting way to approach the concepts of Christianity. I remember reading in the preface to one of them that his friend from the Inklings, Professor JRR Tolkien, had recently published an epic work  of an adventure and quest novel based on Western European folklore which was what led me to read ‘Lord of the Rings’.

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Unremarkabillionaire

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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #293 on: September 05, 2023, 10:47:30 PM »
My own objections were to Minna’s attitude of believing that she was totally and unarguably right, and that everyone who believed otherwise was doomed and damned to hell. And to the level of condescension and discourtesy with which that view was presented.

She has run into the fundamental problem with "outsiders" that every Christian has to "work out" for themselves.  Suppose for a moment that Christianity is true, and the traditional understanding that "non-believers" are "doomed and damned to hell" is also true.  If you really believed that, how would your conduct to others be altered?

My point is not to argue for Christianity but merely to state that the behavioral problem is complicated.  I don't know the answer to it, and I can't fault Minna for not knowing either.  I hope that I am not stepping outside of the desired conduct of this forum, but it seems impossible to discuss a Christian work without discussing Christianity as well.

To actually answer your question, The Screwtape Letters is my favorite book, and I would call Lewis my favorite author for his non-fiction works (namely Mere Christianity and The Abolition of Man).  Those three books helped to awaken my self-awareness and "thinking brain" at a time when I much needed a "splash to the face;" The Screwtape Letters in particular is one of the best explorations of human nature that I have ever read, but for all that praise, I haven't read the Space Trilogy yet!  My reading progress has been poor, and I want to finish a number of other books first (The Lord of the Rings being one of them, oddly enough).
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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #294 on: September 05, 2023, 11:35:18 PM »
That makes sense. Have you read Lewis’s work of theology ‘The Problem of Pain’? It is a fascinating discussion of how suffering can occur in a world created by a supposedly omnipotent and benevolent god. For a Pagan I have read quite a lot of Christian theology, because I wished to better understand my late stepmother, who was a Christian. My mother died when I was quite a small child, and my father did not remarry until I was in my teens, so I was old enough and curious enough to study her faith, and also thought it courteous to at least try to understand her. She did not succeed in converting any of us, but I found the theology interesting.
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Unremarkabillionaire

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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #295 on: September 06, 2023, 01:09:04 AM »
I haven't read it.  I'm saving that book for when I need it; thankfully, that time hasn't come yet.  Thank you for reminding me of C.S. Lewis' works that I haven't read, though!  I need to allocate more time in the day to reading.
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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #296 on: November 29, 2023, 11:50:11 PM »
Time flies and I suddenly stumbled across Minna's two new efforts...

I can't see why some of you insist on reading this latest one from a realistical pow. I mean, they're talking animals. So. But I also noticed that the animals headed the wrong way are more or less sticking to their beastly "natural ways" with wolves being hunters, rabbits being prey, and everyone sticking to their group and their pattern. Meanwhile the Enlightened Ones of The Righteous Path are living in a mixed group, unified in their belief and their holy goodness. Sigh. I also think Minna might be putting her own story into dad wolf's tale - "I'm a misfit, no one likes me, I get criticism no matter what I do"...

It is a pretty straight-forward allegory. Strong C.S.Lewis influence. The art is cute, more recent-like. It doesn't have the richness of earlier SSSS, but she was bending over backwards to produce that kind of quality alone. I'm glad she's found a flow that looks pretty, yet lets her work at an effective pace.

Ok, so that's the journey thing. On to the one about her faith journey. That was absolutely terrifying! The level of spiraling, intrusive thinking and self-loathing/self-absorbedness described in the comic makes me wish someone had made an intervention much sooner. Church can be good for someone who's that isolated, but therapy would likely have been better in my opinion. The whole comic comes across as someone who doesn't really "get" empathy  :-\ And that scared me.
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thorny

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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #297 on: November 30, 2023, 06:58:03 PM »
Two full rounds of melodrama. To be, most likely, followed by another.

And if that's supposed to convert that wolf, I don't believe a bit of it. If he gets out of there, he's a lot more likely to try to kill the witness to his pleading.

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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #298 on: December 04, 2023, 01:16:03 AM »
Two full rounds of melodrama. To be, most likely, followed by another.

And if that's supposed to convert that wolf, I don't believe a bit of it. If he gets out of there, he's a lot more likely to try to kill the witness to his pleading.

I appreciate the attempt at "deeply" representing human cognition, though.  SSSS' characters were written with plenty of wit, but they became a little stiff when  unusual situations arose.

This little "arc" has gone on for a while and taken turns that I didn't forsee, so I'll wait for it to end before passing judgement.
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thorny

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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #299 on: December 04, 2023, 11:43:54 AM »

I appreciate the attempt at "deeply" representing human cognition, though. 

I'm afraid I didn't even see such an attempt. Where did you see it?



Since LP was intentionally fanciful, I see no reason to criticize LP for its art-style or world-building


Coming back to this:

I know some people think of fantasy as simply being "anything goes". That doesn't work for me at all (or for quite a few other fantasy writers and readers.) For me, a fantasy work needs to be consistent within its own framework. The author can posit "in this world, magic works, and at least some gods are real" and that's fine -- but if the author posits that magic works in a particular fashion with particular limits, then it needs to work in that way throughout the work, and if there's an exception a reason needs to be given for it. A world in which magic just does whatever the author wants it to on a particular page is incoherent and IMO lazy writing. If a particular god behaves in a particular fashion, then again that needs to be consistent or an explanation given. And so on.

Minna wasn't perfect at this in SSSS, and I sometimes criticized that work for that reason. But the world as a whole was reasonably coherent. I can't even find a coherent world in Journey Upstream.