(Re)reading The Silmarillion

[RanVor]

Yeah so, any thoughts?

I have a question. I Ilúvatar male or female? I’m reading in Finnish, and we have only one word for both he and she.

I assume it’s male, but I’ve always considered her female. In Finnish the suffix -tar usually means a female form, so for example in Lalli’s moon spell Kuutar means basically Mistress Moon (kuu = moon + tar). So while Ilúvatar is not Finnish, it carries a strong indication of a female person for me.

Definitely male in the Polish translation.

The whole 'creative struggle' bit at the beginning makes me (as a creator) feel some sympathy for Melkor. Sure, he's a bit of a diva, but he's the only one trying to be Creative on a large scale, and I have to give him props for that. (Also the whole music-battle, with the different pieces described, is a little 'Devil went down to Georgia', but with the person opposing the Devil being all-powerful, which makes much less fair.)

I feel completely the same about Melkor. He wants to create his own original creations I can feek this. And he does not only destroy he does add new things to the world like the snowflakes. And as his Brothers and Sisters Melkor is a Part of Ilúvatars thoughts. At least from my point of view this is an accurate psychological description. The part of my mind that makes me to try to improve and acquire new skill is the same part that wants to burn all of my works because they are not good enough.

I never thought about it this way, but yeah, and once we get into Quenta Silmarillion, you'll see just how much Melkor got screwed over in the grand scheme of things.

Doesn't he even say that Melkor's whole 'rebellion' is part of his design?

Oh yes! Trololoo, I'm just letting you "rebel"

That part is irritating. Ilúvatar is practically challenging Melkor to rebel and even rubs the futility of it in his face.

Spoiler: show

It reminds me of a certain character from another story, and not in a good way.

BTW, check out that bit at the end, about gender identity among the Ainur:

Yeah I noticed that and it rubs me the wrong way a bit. Ok written SO LONG ago (I mean by JRR, not the Second Age or whatever, but still) and therefore understandable but why would a non-corporeal Power need a gender?

That ist a point that puzzles me. But I am a weirdo I don't understand the relevance of gender differences for real people so I thought I was the only one puzzled by this.

I guess many people (including both Tolkien, and the hypothetical loremasters who wrote the Silm in theory) are uncomfortable with beings of unclear gender. (I don't get it either, of course.)  I think I will end up pointing out other strange (to me) takes on gender throughout. I do think it's interesting that he definitely sees it as a function of the soul, not the flesh, though.

It is certainly strange. Then again, it was written a century ago.

[moredhel]

That part is irritating. Ilúvatar is practically challenging Melkor to rebel and even rubs the futility of it in his face.

As an interaction between independent individuals this is completely strange. But Melkor is one of Ilúvatars thoughts and part of his personality. And from this perspective it is at least for me not strange. I do not know how common this is, but it is very much how my mind works.

[Jitter]

As an interaction between independent individuals this is completely strange. But Melkor is one of Ilúvatars thoughts and part of his personality. And from this perspective it is at least for me not strange. I do not know how common this is, but it is very much how my mind works.

This suddenly makes me note something. It’s not a very uncommon theme that there is a fallen one, one among several beings, where the others are good and this one black sheep is the source of evil in the world / realm / etc.

This is a surprising as in the same tales the evil side tends to be approximately evenly matched with the good, or, quite often, clearly stronger. Also there seems to be many ingenious ways of being evil, while the good guys often are fairly similar to each other. So, is the fallen one MUCH more influential than the others? Is evil a contagious disease with higher infectiousness than good? Is there any hope for any of the worlds in the long run? Is Jitter making any sense?

[Annuil]

I’m late to the party! Man!..

In Russian translation Iluvatar is also male. And speaking of gender, I think the scene where Ainur take the visible form is like the moment of their birth as Valar, since they need to remain in the world, and we are all born with a gender (unless you are a fish or a snake… which Valar are not animals), which we did not choose, I was chosen before us and for us. So, I see no problem there.

That’s a very interesting question, Jitter, I was actually thinking that it’s not that uncommon. In the Bible Satan is exactly the fallen one, who dragged a few other (i think they were angels) beings to the dark side, and keeps creating problems in the world. This part is actually very similar to the story of the Bible, which a lot of the Silmarillion is, sometimes it amazes me. It’s covered up by all the events so well that it’s often hard to see the parallel, but when you do, it seems really grand.

By the way, Melkor often reminds of that sibling who is always jealous about what other siblings have or do, so he comes and breaks their toys  :'D

[RanVor]

That’s a very interesting question, Jitter, I was actually thinking that it’s not that uncommon. In the Bible Satan is exactly the fallen one, who dragged a few other (i think they were angels) beings to the dark side, and keeps creating problems in the world. This part is actually very similar to the story of the Bible, which a lot of the Silmarillion is, sometimes it amazes me. It’s covered up by all the events so well that it’s often hard to see the parallel, but when you do, it seems really grand.

And here I thought this was really obvious...

[Annuil]

And here I thought this was really obvious...

This scene is obvious, you're right. I was talking about some other things, further into the story. Some of them are covered really well.

I totally forgot to mention, about Jitter's thought, that there were a few other stories with the similar plot of one being fallen, others around going against them, but now i cannot remember anything in particular. Maybe I am mistaking.
As far as i remember Norse myths do not have that structure, neither do Greek myths, though those have some characters that are like outcasts. 

[Jitter]

Ran, yes you were being obvious

Annuil, I think the Norse myth kind of does include the same - Loki is Odin's brother, and while he isn't the Great Big Evil all the time, he is the one that will set Ragnarök in motion. So while he does not live in exile ever since The Beginning (he does at times but also returns to Asgård and lives with the Asas from time to time), he has some of the characteristics of the Fallen One.

[moredhel]

This is a surprising as in the same tales the evil side tends to be approximately evenly matched with the good, or, quite often, clearly stronger.

If good and evil are near to evenly matched there is the potential for a good ans complex story. If one side is much more powerful it will be a quick win and end of the story.

Also there seems to be many ingenious ways of being evil, while the good guys often are fairly similar to each other. So, is the fallen one MUCH more influential than the others? Is evil a contagious disease with higher infectiousness than good? Is there any hope for any of the worlds in the long run? Is Jitter making any sense?

The good guys are in my opinion incorporation the rules and principles of the world. So they have to be similar. All the contradicting principles are incorporated by the fallen one. Wich in my opinion is a good metaphor for living in a society. There is a set of rules and as long as you follow them you are one of the good guys. But it seems impossible for Humans to live by just following the rules they tend to break them at least from time to time, sometimes even for good reasons. I think this is why so many people are telling this sort of storys because too much rulebreaking lets a society collapse and there is no good way to eliminate it at all.

[RanVor]

If good and evil are near to evenly matched there is the potential for a good ans complex story. If one side is much more powerful it will be a quick win and end of the story.

Or a lot of convoluted Deus Ex Machina plot nonsense.

The good guys are in my opinion incorporation the rules and principles of the world. So they have to be similar. All the contradicting principles are incorporated by the fallen one. Wich in my opinion is a good metaphor for living in a society. There is a set of rules and as long as you follow them you are one of the good guys. But it seems impossible for Humans to live by just following the rules they tend to break them at least from time to time, sometimes even for good reasons. I think this is why so many people are telling this sort of storys because too much rulebreaking lets a society collapse and there is no good way to eliminate it at all.

Spoken like a true Lawful Good character.

As an interaction between independent individuals this is completely strange. But Melkor is one of Ilúvatars thoughts and part of his personality. And from this perspective it is at least for me not strange. I do not know how common this is, but it is very much how my mind works.

I never said that it doesn't make sense, only that it's irritating. While it's true that Melkor is ultimately an aspect of Eru and as such, it's impossible for him to truly outplay his creator, Ilúvatar taunting him about it makes the benevolent creator of the world look like a jerk.

[Jitter]

If good and evil are near to evenly matched there is the potential for a good ans complex story. If one side is much more powerful it will be a quick win and end of the story.

I understand the point of it for the story But if you want to make two approximately even sides, why does evil start smaller but grow faster?

But it seems impossible for Humans to live by just following the rules they tend to break them at least from time to time, sometimes even for good reasons. I think this is why so many people are telling this sort of storys because too much rulebreaking lets a society collapse and there is no good way to eliminate it at all.

You are right of course, all societies have (and, as previously discussed in relation to creativity) perhaps have to have some rule-breaking, but it also has to be controlled.

I never said that it doesn't make sense, only that it's irritating. While it's true that Melkor is ultimately an aspect of Eru and as such, it's impossible for him to truly outplay his creator, Ilúvatar taunting him about it makes the benevolent creator of the world look like a jerk.

^ This exact thing right here! ^

[moredhel]

Spoken like a true Lawful Good character.

Let's say halfway lawful. A truly lawful one would not say that humans can not live without breaking the law from time to time. And good? It is possible to make really evil laws and the statement would still be true.

I never said that it doesn't make sense, only that it's irritating. While it's true that Melkor is ultimately an aspect of Eru and as such, it's impossible for him to truly outplay his creator, Ilúvatar taunting him about it makes the benevolent creator of the world look like a jerk.

Makes him somehow realistic for me. He knows he has a chaotic (self)destructive side and he has to deal with it somehow. Methods to do so may vary I am not a psychologist.

[RanVor]

Let's say halfway lawful. A truly lawful one would not say that humans can not live without breaking the law from time to time. And good? It is possible to make really evil laws and the statement would still be true.

No, that's just common sense.

Spoiler: lengthy off-topic rant about lawful archetypes • show

In my interpretation, the defining trait of the Lawful Good archetype is the belief that rules and regulations are necessary for society to properly function. While the individual laws can be good, bad or anywhere in between, the existence of a system regulating social behavior is imperative in itself - without it, everything would fall apart. This is in contrast to the Lawful Neutral archetype, which sees law as a value in itself, as opposed to a means to maintain and stabilize society, and the Lawful Evil archetype, for which laws exist to be exploited to one's own advantage. This is hardly the place to discuss it, though.

Makes him somehow realistic for me. He knows he has a chaotic (self)destructive side and he has to deal with it somehow. Methods to do so may vary I am not a psychologist.

I don't think provoking your destructive side to rebel against you is a good way of handling it in any circumstance, but to each their own, I guess.

[moredhel]

I don't think provoking your destructive side to rebel against you is a good way of handling it in any circumstance, but to each their own, I guess.

How else would you get it to work?

[Jitter]

So, tomorrow, Valaquenta!

I don’t think the discussion needs to close on the earlier sections but can go forward. This will likely be useful when we ar on the longer archs in Quenta Silmarillion.

[RanVor]

It's time.

To be completely honest, there isn't much to discuss in Valaquenta. It's just an explanation of who is who amongst the Valar and the introduction of the Maiar. It goes a bit more in-depth about each Vala's sphere of influence and contains first mentions of Olórin and Sauron (whose original name was Mairon, by the way, a bit of trivia not mentioned in Valaquenta itself), but that's about it.