Future of our Fandom

[JoB]

If you are stable at who you are such things should not bother you.

And if you aren't, you tend to seek places that you trust not to bring them up, as SSSS used to be before day X(tian) ...

I think at the beginning of it there's a little note that says roughly "It's about christianity".

FWIW:

• The standard text linking from SSSS to LP says that the latter has the "Christian homemaker" and that her upcoming comic will be "something very Christian themed".
• The LP page itself offers the first hint - the eBible 1.0 - at the bottom of page 8.
• The new Hummingfluff main page (ex CoH site) says that it is about Social Credit systems "viewed both from a secular and spiritual standpoint", and again describes the future work as "something with a Christian theme".

(Is it relevant to add the wording on Twitter, Instagram, YouTube channel, ..., as well? If so, someone please do that, I don't read those.)

[catbirds]

(Is it relevant to add the wording on Twitter, Instagram, YouTube channel, ..., as well? If so, someone please do that, I don't read those.)

Hrrm, just IMO the little cues that we get weren't enough to tell me that she would go into a full bible-theme afterwards, but that's not what's bad about LP at all (to me). It miiiight have been the reason for some people, though, and it's best to not overlook that.

If you need a list:

• Minna hasn't shown up on twitter, I think. All that's changed is her bio on @ Hummingfluff saying she's no longer making Games
• Her Instagram has the same summary as anything else, and some additional information saying she's printing the comic eventually, and making it into an e-book
• Her Youtube channel has a link to a newsletter with the same "will have a christian slant blah blah" blurb and the same summary as usual appears in her second-to-most-recent video
• BUT just below that, in the latest video (as of this post), she summarizes the comic as "a soft dystopia about three best friends living in a world with a Social Credit system," so no way to tell from that.
• Nothing about LP at all on her twitch yet

- how central do we want to keep Minna's art to the forum? It did bring us here indeed, but personally, the more time goes on and the "situation" doesn't improve, the more I get soured on it. I can imagine a time when it would irk me to even see the SSSS banner and advertisements of her streams etc all over the page. Not yet though - for now, I just know for sure I won't participate in the re-read and I'll most likely not post fan content or look at it for Minna's works anymore either. I wonder if there are other people who feel the same. As of now, I'm definitely only staying here for the interesting people I've met and not for engaging in any way with Minna's creations.

I agree with this completely, and Songbird's run-down of possible scenarios is also a good way to look at it.

For me, there's a certain level of detachment in my presence online that lets me stay here, even as I form more negative emotions around SSSS and Minna's actions. I'm fine with being in online spaces that aren't totally about things that I care about or people I don't totally agree with. But this forum generally avoided both those things because 1. community and 2. it's moderated and on a manageable scale. If a different community forms here or becomes more vocal here, then, uh, then it'd be one that I wouldn't mind being in, but definitely would be less active in.

In that third scenario that Songbird lists, though, I'd still find ways to stay in touch with people who gradually leave. But not having an open forum for discussion (or having one on some way less user-friendly site) definitely doesn't give people the same sense of community that we have right now. This is the most probable outcome if we don't agree on something collectively? BUT we still have around a year or so of planning time as of... right now, so as we discuss this, and as people come up with ideas or develop ideas that they like, I think what we should do and what people who like being here want for the future will gradually become clearer.

[Kitty]

popping in to say, uh, Minna isn't the only person doing nordic webcomic

year in hereafter comes to mind and that webcomic doesn't even have a fan site


basically, this forum can become a hub for all cool nordic webcomics
or something

bc idk i don't feel like following christianity in any form



even reading ssss is a bit tiring...

[Kitty]

If you are stable at who you are such things should not bother you.

also i gotta say. if you are stable and have two legs, it should not bother you if i trip you up while walking. if you're crippled, maybe you shouldn't have been walking near me. it gave me a chance to trip you up.


that's what Minna did to her readers. not a cool thing to do.

[Vulpes]

I'm a bit tired right now so I don't want to write too much, but I just want to say I feel the same way. I don't at all desire to engage with Minna's works any longer in my own time and I keep going back and forth on whether to keep following this forum or just leave it. I've been familiar with this community for half a decade and I want to at least help it move towards the future if I can, but I sometimes worry that it might not be worth the mental toll that all of it is taking.

<snip> But not having an open forum for discussion (or having one on some way less user-friendly site) definitely doesn't give people the same sense of community that we have right now. This is the most probable outcome if we don't agree on something collectively? BUT we still have around a year or so of planning time as of... right now, so as we discuss this, and as people come up with ideas or develop ideas that they like, I think what we should do and what people who like being here want for the future will gradually become clearer.

These two comments somewhat reflect how I'm feeling - a bit worn out by all the angst, worrying about this community... but ultimately knowing that with SSSS continuing for a while, we have time to figure this out.

I don't know about anyone else, but I need to step away a little, stop looking at the trainwreck, focus on the uncontroversial discussions, and fret less. I've been busy the last couple days and not keeping up with the various debates, and found myself feeling a bit more positive. I'm on board to keep this place going, but I'm not going to think about it any more until the end of SSSS is in sight.

[Róisín]

Annuil, I feel that thorny and Kitty both make very good points. I would say that I am stable in my own faith and life, but that does not give people with different views the right to trip me without warning just because they can.

I think part of what bothers me is that ingrained attitude that the only real and worthy people are the members of that one particular sect of Christianity, with everyone else somehow being not ‘real people’. Having encountered that attitude applied to women, people of colour, the poor, sick, disabled and many other categories, I distrust it in a religion that believes the members of all other faiths, or of no faith, are not their equals, and are less than they. That attitude comes across to me as wanting ‘power over’ rather than as wishing to share their joy in having found their own god. It is condescending and cruel.

[Annuil]

Okay, I get it and this argument should come to an end at some point (which it probably would not) because it is going in circles.
I am going to say this generally, not pointing at anyone specifically, just sum this up.
Christianity may indeed take different forms, I agree. There are christians who want to continue to bring their faith to the world, there are those who do not. Going into theology is probably not the best idea here, but to say the truth, that's what the New Testament is about - spreading the Word and "recruiting" new christians and establishing new churches. This cannot be done without "talking" people (yes! insulting them, telling that they are sinful and showing them the right way) into the religion. And yes christians think that their belief is the only true one, but so do Muslims, Judaism believers, Hinduism believers and many others except for pluralists and those believing that all religions are true.
Maybe a better warning would have made everyone feel better, but I do not think it would have changed the outcome with all the arguing and debating.

also i gotta say. if you are stable and have two legs, it should not bother you if i trip you up while walking. if you're crippled, maybe you shouldn't have been walking near me. it gave me a chance to trip you up.

Depends on how agile you are. You can be tripped or you can dodge and avoid tripping.
Yes, this was an unexpected change of the attitude towards Minna and her work in the last couple of weeks. Yes, we all were surprised. Some pleasantly surprised, some disgusted. But my point is still there. If you know who you are and what you believe, you will stand firm and skillfully go through any shaking or tripping.
For me, this was a good change. I welcomed it. Some people did not like this at all and I want you guys to know that I did put myself into your place and thought through it. I do not know, if I would have continued to follow Minna, if she turned to something I find untrue and insulting. I probably would have been disgusted by the SSSS as well, though at the moment it is rather innocent, it has not been changed. However, such things happen, and they can be very hard and sad. Leaving a thing you lived a while with is always awful, and you do not want that to happen. You do not want anything to change. You want everything to be as good as it used to be...
And I understand the desire to go away from Minna's artworks and just keep the community, but for those still interested in her works that would not sound nice. We need to find a good balance to hold this place together, though it will probably not happen. We will have to split, and that is fine, we have different views and different ways. Some will go into the new, some will stay with whatever is left and that is very sad...
But the community should stay together more or less, because it has one base on which it was started - the starting parts of the SSSS, the older art and I do not think people will just stop revisiting it and rereading it. There will be new people to come, who would want to enjoy the possibility to discuss their favorite characters.
So let us find this balance and maybe agree that we all differ and sometimes we just do not understand each other. As we found out through SSSS, understanding can go beyond regular rules. The boundary of language, which is one of the most important parts of communication, can be overcome. So, we will overcome this boundary one day and learn to live with each other. I find the difference in peoples' views one of the most amazing things in the world.
You all' points and views are indeed valued and once again I apologize if I did hurt anyone. Butter good.

[Jitter]

Hello all, please refrain from debating the Lovely People comic, its author’s notes, or other facets of the LP itself in this thread. The LP thread is for that purpose. For general discussion about religions, we have the mini church thread (did I recall it correctly?).

Both the stance towards LP and the so far only potenial future works of Minna, and Minna’s actions in relation to her work are relevant here as references to what it may mean for the future of the fandom. However they are not the focus of this thread and should not be further discussed here.

This in the interests of keeping this thread focused on what we can and should do now and over a medium term to keep the fandom alive. Hopefully we can find ways to accommodate the different views and avoid shattering the community, or changing it into another community. I’m sure none of us in this thread are hoping to se Songbird’s third option to take place.

*End of housekeeping message. Please return to your normal conversation.*

[Róisín]

Jitter: Sorry if I overstepped the bounds! I will try to be relevant.

[Annuil]

Jitter, I’m terribly sorry. At first I used it to support my points, but then it went on...

At the moment I have nothing more to say, I need to think on this and on some of the suggestions. My only ask would be, to maybe not leave Minna’s art away from this place. It is why I came here in the first place and I do not think I was the only one. On the other hand, we could make a little less of it, so to accommodate to all our desires, just, please, keep some of it 

[Songbird]

popping in to say, uh, Minna isn't the only person doing nordic webcomic

year in hereafter comes to mind and that webcomic doesn't even have a fan site


basically, this forum can become a hub for all cool nordic webcomics
or something

bc idk i don't feel like following christianity in any form



even reading ssss is a bit tiring...

I see where you're coming from and I find it worth thinking about. I don't feel the love of nordic mythos is exactly the connective tissue keeping this community in place—the thing that brought we here—yet interested in it is certainly also something that brought many of us. Looking at why we like SSSS, what elements drew most of us to it is helpful in figuring what sort of discussions we can encourage. Like, eg an incomplete list of aspects I cherish in the story:

- Coexistence of multiple less known mythologies and religions
- The absence of a Main Correct One religion that's the secret truth of the world to rule over them all
- Post-Apocalyptic setting that isn't full of doom and gloom humans suck
- Relationships between characters
- Language barriers mostly played straight rather than being forgotten the moment they're inconvenient to the plot
- The art
- Cats and their role in the world
- Monsters with an excessive amount of limbs
- Support cast that isn't fully compromised of 20-somethings floating around without a point of attachment to their communities


I understand growing tired of SSSS as well, so am I after the incident. I don't think the community has reached the point of wanting to turn backs on it yet hence keeping it as a major category while simultaneously making room so people in need of distancing themselves from it can without being forced to jump ship. Does that make sense?

To touch on Annuil's last post I don't feel we want to renounce on her art, it's just that given the circumstances we want to adjust the environment to keep it without having it driving people apart. It doesn't need to be this way. We don't need to make the choice between being unconditionally supportive of past present and future works and attitudes or killing any links to how this community came to be. Given how the content itself has not been the biggest point of contention but how it was presented and how the community response has been handled by her it's fair to say adjusting the forum so it's more art and content-centric—and I mean that about her stories too—and less author-centric has great chances of easing tensions.

[Vulpes]

Looking at why we like SSSS, what elements drew most of us to it is helpful in figuring what sort of discussions we can encourage.

Okay, I was going to keep out of the where-do-we-go-from-here discussion for now, but this type of reflection I can do!

What drew me to SSSS, in no particular order:

• Weirdly, the sound effects. "klirr" does not exist in English. It was the same thing with Prague Race (which I think led me to SSSS) - "naks", "krunts", all unfamiliar but familiar.
• Cats. This needs no elaboration, hm?
• Believable, relatable characters. They have strenghts, flaws, quirks.
• Gender equality. Also needs no elaboration.
• Friendship, and the lack of any romantic focus. Not that I don't enjoy a well-written "getting together" story, but they are really common. It's nice to see an exploration of friendship dynamics without romantic drama.
• The use of Nordic magic/mythologies. Not because Nordic, particularly (although I do have an interest, because I'm basically a boreal creature), it could have been any mythology. But it's fun to see how the concepts appear in the comic, and then go read up on them elsewhere, and see them discussed here.
• The mystery of the Rash. I guess we'll never find out the details, and perhaps Minna never thought them through, but it's a delightfully terrifying illness.
• Nerding out trying to figure out exactly where they are!

Those are what pop to mind, anyway. It's a useful way to think about how I'm going to relate to it in future, and what this place might become. Thanks for the suggestion, Songbird!

[thorny]

[ . . .]
 We don't need to make the choice between being unconditionally supportive of past present and future works and attitudes or killing any links to how this community came to be.

Agreeing with this; there's middle ground here, and multiple other choices.

And, as has been said, we've got time to figure it out.

[ . . .]
Like, eg an incomplete list of aspects I cherish in the story:

- Coexistence of multiple less known mythologies and religions
- The absence of a Main Correct One religion that's the secret truth of the world to rule over them all
- Post-Apocalyptic setting that isn't full of doom and gloom humans suck
- Relationships between characters
- Language barriers mostly played straight rather than being forgotten the moment they're inconvenient to the plot
- The art
- Cats and their role in the world
- Monsters with an excessive amount of limbs
- Support cast that isn't fully compromised of 20-somethings floating around without a point of attachment to their communities
[ .. . ]

Adding to that, nearly all of which also applies to me (though I don't actually require monsters, with or without lots of limbs):

-- That if there are monsters there's sympathy for them. Entirely unsympathetic monsters are just boring.

-- Relationships between and among people that aren't all about sexual relationships. I have no objections to sex as such, or to some characters having sex and/or romantic relationships; it's unrealistic if nobody does. And for that matter I don't mind fans who like shipping; but when an artwork starts Pairing Everybody Off as if that were the only important form of human connection, I find it annoying.

-- Characters drawn like people. I will read things with the standard comic Exaggerated Male/Female, or Huge Eyes, or Huge Muscles, if I like the work enough otherwise; but there's always a corner of my head that's annoyed at it.

-- As Vulpes says, the lack of gender roles; or, if the work is going in for gender roles, that it's doing something interesting with them.

[SkyWhalePod]

I don't know about anyone else, but I need to step away a little, stop looking at the trainwreck, focus on the uncontroversial discussions, and fret less. I've been busy the last couple days and not keeping up with the various debates, and found myself feeling a bit more positive. I'm on board to keep this place going, but I'm not going to think about it any more until the end of SSSS is in sight.

I feel you there. I'm going to try to be more active in page discussion/sharing of lovely things/that art stuff I said I would share more of with people/maybe even a little fan art. Positive things! Hopefully when we start the re-read, people will feel less like we're in emergency maintenance mode.

[Annuil]

Given how the content itself has not been the biggest point of contention but how it was presented and how the community response has been handled by her it's fair to say adjusting the forum so it's more art and content-centric—and I mean that about her stories too—and less author-centric has great chances of easing tensions.

Oh, ok, that makes sense and I’m totally fine with that.
I do want to say that the idea suggested about adding other Nordic apocalyptic comic to this forum to get away from SSSS as a center did not sound so great to me. Different comics have different attitudes and I can even say, sometimes there are things I do not want to associate with. Like, I came to this forum because of SSSS and because I know what it is and how it is and what people read it. The forum changing in such a fashion may draw me away from here (it’s just thoughts, I don’t know how it is going to be in reality) So, I’m just not sure about that idea.
Otherwise, I mostly agree with you guys about reshaping the forum, in a way to accommodate everyone.