Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'

[Hedge]

Funny enough, for me honeycombs are some of the few organic clusters of holes that don't trigger my trypophobia - precisely because they're so geometrical that they almost look manmade, and the holes not being circular also helps. Though maybe having positive associations and familiarity with bees from childhood also influences it (my grandpa used to keep bees for a while and he let me get very involved in it). Some wasp nests do mildly trigger it however, probably because they are not built on frames like honeycombs and are more irregular. There are however many other natural things that are not bee-related at all that give me a much worse reaction.

Yeah I don't think it's bees, our species has always duckin loved bees, early humans, modern hunter gatherers and also chimpanzees go to great lengths to raid wild hives. Honey and humans go together and honeycomb is far more likely to trigger a deep evolutionary yell of joy than disgust. I've always understood it to be like, parasites and disease, I find some images in that category physically uncomfortable to look at and we have a bunch of strong pre-programmed disgust reactions to signs of disease and parasitism.

[Róisín]

Hedge, I agree with you about the ‘real life doesn’t have content warnings’ thing. It’s just silly. Having reached old age by dint of being careful and cautious and only taking risks when it is necessary, I do think that practical warnings, things like ‘danger, deep water’ or ‘only cross on the green light’ should be used, and should not be ignored. And yeah, just because danger cannot always be avoided is no reason not to try to avoid it.

[thorny]

Also agreeing about the 'real life' line.

To add to what's been said: real life has lots of content warnings. "Danger, Hard Hat Area, Construction Zone". "Beware of Dog". "No Swimming, Storm Warning". "You Must Be This Tall To Go On This Ride." "Sharp Curve, 20MPH". "Wrong Way, Do Not Enter." "Not Potable Water." I could go on and on and on.

[katiemeredith]

What a great discussion! I hadn't been on this forum since I was...13 years old so it's great to see such great conversations. Reading all 36 pages was definitely worth it, everyone on here is just so articulate .

After reading this post, I decided to read the author's notes for myself, and it appears that an update has been added:

*Update April 13th* I'm working on getting a printed version self published! I set up an email newsletter if you want to be updated on that, and to let you know when I start my next comic project: --- https://sssscomic.us20.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=8288b532152d0c2d4b9c5f8ea&id=d104f4c809 *End update*

The link sends you to a website where you can put your email in and receive news about the upcoming printed version of "Lovely People" and news about her upcoming projects, that she describes as having a "strong Christian slant". She says "if you found 'Lovely People' offensive that one will probably be too". 
I know that there was speculation as to how Minna's career would change as a result of this comic, so it seems as if she is taking things a bit more Christian-y from here on out (after SSSS).

Personally, it's kind of upsetting, as I really enjoy(ed?) her works up until now. I do agree with previous posters, I think that this work is a reduction/step back from her ability to treat characters as completely gender neutral, something that I rarely see in media. Maybe her "theological studies" will enable her to write nuanced stories about things in a way that does not punish the reader for holding a different spiritual belief.


As a side note, I also think that Minna's explanation for ending CoH was also...bad...and condescending.
 

...I'm going to spend my free time doing something more fruitful. It was a fun learning project, but I've decided to stop wasting my time playing video games, and the same goes for making them.

I spend a solid amount of time playing video games and they're fun! And objectively not a waste of time! Maybe it's the language, but this was written in a way that implies that anyone who plays or makes games is wasting their time. If copyright/intellectual property wasn't a thing I'd wonder if she would release the code or art for people to mess with on here :/ .

Well...anyway, April Fool's has passed and I don't see this situation changing so drastically that it solves all of the problems created by this comic . I wonder if Minna's sect views webcomics as Bad Media or literature? Probably the latter but...

[thorny]

She says "if you found 'Lovely People' offensive that one will probably be too".

That's a content warning of sorts, I suppose, for both 'Lovely People' and the upcoming work; though a pretty snippy one; and I gather it's not on the main comic page?

And I'm not at all sure that she understands that what people found offensive wasn't just that it's Christian.

[catbirds]

As a side note, I also think that Minna's explanation for ending CoH was also...bad...and condescending.
I spend a solid amount of time playing video games and they're fun! And objectively not a waste of time! Maybe it's the language, but this was written in a way that implies that anyone who plays or makes games is wasting their time. If copyright/intellectual property wasn't a thing I'd wonder if she would release the code or art for people to mess with on here :/ .

Oh, it seems a lot of people felt this way about the way she put an end to the CoH blog. I didn't check it beforehand because most indie games just aren't really my thing, even if it was for characters I had been attached to at some point (I actually thought it was just another one of those stream "slip-ups" where she exposes her horrific viewpoint about [marginalized community] when someone mentions [thing that is happening]... after this discussion and learning about everything that's happened even outside of the streams that I attended, I've more or less realized that there are lots more of those than I'd initially thought.)

It's weird because she does seem to have a conservative stance within the context of video games, if that's even possible. One of the "I liked older games because they were better" sorts of things, which I half agree with because of certain issues around video game archiving that have sprung up due to how ephemeral any game hosted on servers tended to be (see: that PS3 store shutdown thing that's been getting talked about a lot)

The thing is, the way people spend time varies so greatly that I'm sure everyone does something that most other people would scratch their heads at. It's one of those little "human" things that sometimes people appreciate. So I guess what I'm saying is that people are rightly upset at her for the lack of empathy in her statement, even if it is one of the less horrific opinions I've seen from her. It kind of makes me angry at people who said that the bunny comic demonstrated a profound understanding of human nature (these are real words I read) because it and, perhaps, the author clearly don't (sorry for the harsh phrasing).

(She said she'd release a story summary, something just to let us know what it was supposed to be about, by the way. I don't think she wants it complete, ever, though, and I'm pretty ready to accept that that's a mark of her "new" beliefs and part of the string of decisions that she's made.)

The conversation's taken a steep turn away from this and her initial actions to focus on her response to requests to slap on a trigger warning or a better summary, though, which is pretty appropriate considering that's what caused people to unwittingly read... whatever the bunny comic was

The link sends you to a website where you can put your email in and receive news about the upcoming printed version of "Lovely People" and news about her upcoming projects, that she describes as having a "strong Christian slant". She says "if you found 'Lovely People' offensive that one will probably be too". 
I know that there was speculation as to how Minna's career would change as a result of this comic, so it seems as if she is taking things a bit more Christian-y from here on out (after SSSS).
...
Maybe her "theological studies" will enable her to write nuanced stories about things in a way that does not punish the reader for holding a different spiritual belief.

I'm also hoping, really hoping, that she'll get a more nuanced understanding of people once she writes her next story, but I'm fairly certain she's at least somewhat unchanged in her bigoted views and will continue to be (sorry if you hadn't known this in the past, I had to be spoonfed it too via a few tumblr posts and some google searching). Just... in the past, she viewed her work as mostly allegory-less and apolitical, but now that she's steering fully in the opposite direction... [scootches a bit away from her on the bench]

I'm talking mostly about myself now, but I also disappeared from this forum some time in the past and only just came back not too long ago, under a different account. Weirdly enough, almost like some stupid coincidence, I changed in the totally opposite direction of Minna in that period. I like myself a lot better and sorted out a lot of feelings, got more into video games I couldn't afford as a child... somehow got more honest with my high school friends... Seeing this all happen, I felt like this bunny comic could have turned out so much better somehow if the creator hadn't picked this particular brand of Christianity that demands self-pitying and self-loathing. But part of it has to be driven by your own desire for improvement and willingness to let go of reasons to hate yourself and scorn other people (or to accept that you can love and be loved. By humans, as strange as they are), which, judging by the afterword of the bunny comic, uh I think I can assume did not happen

Anyway, I think that got a bit too long and emotional there, oops

[katiemeredith]

I totally agree!

So I guess what I'm saying is that people are rightly upset at her for the lack of empathy in her statement, even if it is one of the less horrific opinions I've seen from her. It kind of makes me angry at people who said that the bunny comic demonstrated a profound understanding of human nature (these are real words I read) because it and, perhaps, the author clearly don't.

I think that a lot of the frustration aimed at Minna is justified because there is a clear route in which Minna would have been able to express her emotions and beliefs while also being considerate and less problematic. If she were to have given an appropriate content warning, and was more open minded/less condescending in her author note, the problem would not be so inflated. Instead of saying "video games are a waste of time", she could have simply stated that she was grateful for the experience, but making a game wasn't the best choice for her.

I'm also hoping, really hoping, that she'll get a more nuanced understanding of people once she writes her next story, but I'm fairly certain she's at least somewhat unchanged in her bigoted views and will continue to be (sorry if you hadn't known this in the past, I had to be spoonfed it too via a few tumblr posts and some google searching). Just... in the past, she viewed her work as mostly allegory-less and apolitical, but now that she's steering fully in the opposite direction... [scootches a bit away from her on the bench]

I'm aware of the whole Emil situation and I know that she said something problematic about BLM but yeah, I don't believe that these views manifest overnight. Not so related, but Contrapoints has a video about J.K. Rowling's transphobia and gives phenomenal commentary about why people become/stay bigots. I think what Contra says in her video about the origins of bigotry can applied to every bigot ever: Bigotry is reactionary, and is a reaction to fear and uncomfortableness with change or a result of some personal experience. I'm not implying that Minna is a bigot, but many of the more Doomsday-ish Christian sects have a tendency to lean that way.

Weirdly enough, almost like some stupid coincidence, I changed in the totally opposite direction of Minna in that period.
...
Seeing this all happen, I felt like this bunny comic could have turned out so much better somehow if the creator hadn't picked this particular brand of Christianity that demands self-pitying and self-loathing.

I remember in early high school I was totally on this r/Atheism "I am better than you" kick, like Minna described in her Author's note. Instead of channeling this attitude into religion, I took the political/science route, "If you didn't believe in science...then you must be stupid because science is undeniable and literally true soo...". And like...I was probably so annoying (luckily this phase lasted like...3 months). The only thing that made me realize how poor my attitude was was seeing how condescending other smart people were acting towards their "opposition". But to echo what you said, we've all been in spots where one may hold views that are close-minded, or act in an ailenting way, but it is up to us alone to find the desire to improve and grow. It's not that I don't want Minna to be told of her errors, but it does suck that she's making these mistakes and saying questionable things for a considerably large audience (and on the internet, too!).

I was raised Catholic, and my distancing from that was fairly boring and peaceful. However, I know a solid deal about Theology and am still in touch with the rhetoric used by problematic and non-problematic Christians alike. I think that the Technocracy Rabbits could have been about taking it upon yourself to overcome the temptations of technology to embrace family and faith. However, the way that Alizongle presents itself is meant to spark fear of the future, something that will cause some Christians to say "Yes!! Fear!! We're Winning With God!! Bad Technology" while everyone else kind of cringes. 'Tis my personal take, anyway.

It is just really sad to see someone that I've/we've looked up to as an artist change in a way that is distressing and damaging.

[Maple]

Well...anyway, April Fool's has passed and I don't see this situation changing so drastically that it solves all of the problems created by this comic . I wonder if Minna's sect views webcomics as Bad Media or literature? Probably the latter but...

This is why I'm personally going through and saving all of the pages, just in case something happens. Because that's how it always goes in fundamentalist religions: the religion in question says X, Y, and Z are bad, and the new member stops doing X, Y, and Z. But then they say oh, W is bad as well. And then later V is bad too. And so on and so on until all that's left is religion-approved work, praying, and religious study. They trick people by not showing all of the limits at first, so the person in question gradually cuts away everything that they find enjoyable in their life, up until they have nothing left but fitting in with this new crowd.

For the record, I'm not saying this is going to happen for sure to Minna. I'm saying I grew up in America and I've seen this exact same story play out over and over and over again throughout my entire life, and when you've seen the same story happen a thousand times over you start to recognize the story beats.

[SkyWhalePod]

Maple and katiemeredith, I've been a little worried just today about Minna's old work vanishing, too. I noticed that literally everything on the CoH blog is gone except for the post announcing that video games are a waste of time, which is a sign that Minna isn't above removing her past works from the internet. Like you said, Maple, that doesn't necessarily mean she'll remove aRTD and SSSS if she feels like they don't represent her viewpoint anymore, but I understand the concern you feel. It did make me go and buy a PDF copy of aRTD, and I'm this very moment trying to figure out what the best way to get it printed for myself would be.

Minna released another vlog today and reiterated what katiemeredith pointed out, that her work from here on out will be Christian-themed, and that 'people who liked SSSS but not Lovely People probably wouldn't like her future work'. As thorny said, this suggests to me that she doesn't fully understand what bothered readers about Lovely People -- or that she does understand and intends to continue evangelizing.

[JoB]

I noticed that literally everything on the CoH blog is gone except for the post announcing that video games are a waste of time

Huh what?? I see the newest blog post, which is exclusively about her changed priorities, and the same paragraph (including typos) inserted atop the previous one, but the rest - up to and including el numero uno zero, the comments, and the prototype download - looks unchanged ...

[pinkysaxton]

Because that's how it always goes in fundamentalist religions: the religion in question says X, Y, and Z are bad, and the new member stops doing X, Y, and Z. But then they say oh, W is bad as well. And then later V is bad too. And so on and so on until all that's left is religion-approved work, praying, and religious study. They trick people by not showing all of the limits at first, so the person in question gradually cuts away everything that they find enjoyable in their life, up until they have nothing left but fitting in with this new crowd.

Off-topic but a good new read for those who are looking to fill a void:
Ella Minno Pea, by Mark Dunn, is a story that criticizes this tendency in religious oligarchies. In this case, they choose to remove letters from the alphabet (with some pretty harsh punishments to those who slip up). It's a (well-written) counterpoint to Lovely People and how a society would realistically move people to accept bad choices from a government.

At this point, any dismissive comment Minna makes about video games or whatever else just shows that she hasn't really changes since being a dismissive atheist. Ultimately, it feels like those handful of kids in high school who were always going on about how everything others liked just sucked. And everyone else just kind of rolled their eyes and knew it was silly of them and mostly performative and self-feeding. Only now she has a platform where others will stop and agree (and remind everyone to pray for us) instead of keep walking to the next class.

[catbirds]

Off-topic but a good new read for those who are looking to fill a void:
Ella Minno Pea, by Mark Dunn, is a story that criticizes this tendency in religious oligarchies. In this case, they choose to remove letters from the alphabet (with some pretty harsh punishments to those who slip up). It's a (well-written) counterpoint to Lovely People and how a society would realistically move people to accept bad choices from a government.

Oooh, actually, I searched that up and it seems like a cool read! Something that really gets your mind going (literally, it takes effort to read), although the loss of letters does seem like a pain if you have a reading disability. At least, according to this (does this count as a spoiler?):

As letters disappear, the novel becomes more and more phonetically or creatively spelled, and requires more effort to interpret.

Hope someone out there's made an audiobook, if it even works in the format the book is in? I will read it immediately after the book I'm reading right now, thanks for the suggestion! (I really want to read more this summer)

I think there's a thread for books, if you have more suggestions like this!

I haven't been keeping up with this thread much otherwise, it's pretty much wearing my brain down needing to organize thoughts about these things, but I appreciate what discussion has happened

[Pippagrey]

I saw snippets in the thread (as much as I've been able to read) about Minna's disparaging comments about certain communities, etc. Does anyone know particulars? (Like what comments she's made, what communities she's against)

I didn't even know she had expressed negative views of certain communities/people.

Thanks!

[GlyphGraph]

I didn't think lovely people was that bad but... Minna's myopia is definitely on full display here, isn't it?

It's actually always amusing to come across the zeal of the fresh convert indulging in the weird oppressor-as-victim fetish that a certain subset of Christians really get into.

I'm actually generally good with putting religious themes in your work, writing about and from your religion, even some proselytizing.

The big problem with Lovely People, from my perspective, is pretty simple - she's built a massive, terrible dystopia, and then written a story that strongly implies the only flaw with it is that it's not (specific-subset-of-)Christian enough. After all, all the characters were fine with it prior to it messing with their own bible. The society only ever works out poorly for the Christians in it, even though there's clearly plenty of space for non-Christian suffering. The overall message doesn't some to be fear of or disgust with the existence of a social credit system so much as with fear that that the wrong people might be in charge of it.

Think of how simple, how easy it would have been for there to be a non-Christian (at the start) character introduced early on, who also suffered under the heavy hand of this dystopia, and the main characters recognized this, and reached out to them, and they left together and the character converted because Christianity offer an alternative, offered salvation from the evils of this society! How it would have demonstrated that the main characters embraced the Christian love for their fellow man (err... bunny) that Jesus did. And considering her own recent conversion, it would have been easy to write from experience!

What do we get instead? We get a society that has the "wrong christians" in charge pushing their own preferred interpretation of Christianity, and we get our victims - the traditionalist, insular group of bunnies who make no effort to welcome outsiders and even at the end of the story only seem to have concern for those within their tribe. The version of Christianity we get is... empty, vacuous, and the defining feature of it is willingness to read an old book without taking any of its actual lessons to heart as best I can tell.

Would any of the characters, for all their superior christian faith and morals, have had a single problem with this society if the bible they were familiar with had been superficially at the center of it instead? Obviously not! The story really drives home that they would have been very, very fine with a social credit system that rewarded traditional Christian behaviour, that their Christianity offers no actual moral advantage over their peers, and overall that these bunnies are not, at the heart of things, particularly good people - and that if you aren't already one of the righteous ones at the start of the story, you can be written off as unimportant.

So, yeah. Unlike other people it's not the overt proselytization I disliked, I didn't mind that part at all. It's that it's just so... limited. More than being an attempt to convert, or an attempt to exalt her Christian beliefs, or an attempt to spell out of the evils of an unchristian society... It feels like the author had a story to tell to try that was primarily about justifying her own feelings of being persecuted unfairly (I'm not sure Minna actually has been persecuted for anything, but that's what it feels like? There feels like a distinct undertone of "They're out to get me") and responding by talking about how she, and people like her, will escape from this unfair society to their own special place just for people like them and you can't stop them (also ignore the fact that people like her basically call the shots for not, the fact that someday they might not is the greatest conceivable injustice)!

It's very John Galt, in a way. Although with not quite as much smugness and ego.

As to the author's note, vaccine passports somehow leading to a social credit system, while completely ignoring how much traditional christian societies had social norms that mirrored the social credit system described in the story, is crazy in a way that is both hilarious and worrying in terms of her possibly slipping deep into conspiracy theorist territory at some point in the future. At the very least it sounds like she's probably antivax which is, well.. not good, obviously, for someone who wants to be a good Christian.

[pinkysaxton]

Oooh, actually, I searched that up and it seems like a cool read! Something that really gets your mind going (literally, it takes effort to read), although the loss of letters does seem like a pain if you have a reading disability.

Initially, they have to come up with synonyms for what they'd usually say. "Fare well" instead of "Goodbye." It's done through letters, so there isn't any third-person description (outside of where the letters where found, such as 'kitchen table'). Later on, they are allowed to use misspellings that sound similar (in writing only). That gets pretty difficult to read. But by then, the story is almost over. So depending on how much one struggles with it, it could be worth the attempt.

I agree with GlyphGraph about the lack of imagination of Minna's world building (especially when compared to how full and deep SSSS seemed during my first read through). We've been considering the idea that her theology research will broaden her mind a bit, and hopefully make her future Christian stories better, more relatable, and more palatable. But the fundamentalists I know are very limited in what they've read (and understand) and primarily read to memorize and repeat the convenient bits. (It's fun to get into a bible argument with someone whose doctrine is mainly secondary or culture-based – see the tattoo quoting anti-gay Leviticus.) But from her own comment that she's getting more into the theology, history, and orthodoxy, I really don't think that will happen. I think she'll further engrain herself into whatever she's received from her converters. We know she hates new interpretations and new revised printings. But who in her new circle will mention that the orthodox version was cut-and-pasted together by Constantine and his bishops? Nobody who hates sharing "Jesus loves you" over "You've sinned against God" will give any credence to the Heresy Gospels.
So I think anyone who signs up for her newsletter is in for some more worlds created without complexity or imagination. And, like Maple mentioned earlier, this isn't the end of what she'll have to give up. People are agreeing with her now, that webcomics are more productive and 'mature' than coding. But she gave up programming when she loved it. And I know a lot of people who think webcomics, comics, and graphic novels are all trash. So we might not even see her fully realize the next comic project. She may have to shift mediums to continue.