Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'

[viola]

Broken link.

Unb0rken by guesswork

Sorry about that! And thanks @JoB! I fixed the link in my post too.

[Haiz]

this is probably skirting the realm of off-topicity, but i DO feel like it's relevant to a lot of my feelings about the dreaded Afterword so i'm gonna treat myself to one more reply

Answer below to what looks like concerns about my mental health, contains lots of Christian thoughts.

Spoiler: show

So, um, please don't worry about my mental health? ^^' The only thing about this situation that has a real negative impact on it is the fact that I'm being social enough to respond in this thread. That's on me and I'll recover from it eventually, even if I complain about it.

I know that it sounds weird, but in spite of being Christian I can call myself a serpent all I want and it normally won't even leave a dent in my happiness. This time I'll admit that it does feel awful, but I'm feeling guilt and self-disgust for a good reason, and it actually is helping me. You may be right that it's not helping others though, if that's what you mean? Now I'm unsure, isn't that what people who have been hurt want the offender to feel...? At any rate there's no need for anyone to feel bad for my sake. I am definitely not looking for apologies from others for something I might as well consider an answer to my prayer. In fact, I asked God to teach me more about empathy, just a couple of months before this whole thing. I didn't expect the lesson to come in this way, but the nice version I was given at first I simply interpreted as "Be more social!!" and it didn't bite on me because being social is my bane. God must know that sometimes, humans learn best from being allowed to make their own mistakes. Then he gave me a chance to recover a bit before filling me in on what I might've struggled to take from strangers. Of course, this experience hasn't magically just given me a lot of empathy, but I have learned much that I didn't know before, and it is a first step.

And about self-forgiveness... that is the only forgiveness I don't practise. To me, that would be like saying that I don't need God. But I'll be fine. I trust God to heal me, like he always does, and I can let go of the pain through his forgiveness. So I don't even need my own for that (denying my real feelings in favor of self-forgiveness sounds like a chore, anyway).

Thanks for caring, though. You're a kind person~ ^^

Spoiler: show

i'm a little afraid of falling into old habits by replying to this...  I Don't Know How To Explain To People That Hating Yourself Isn't That Great

we can agree to disagree, but i think self-disgust and constantly beating yourself up IS relevant to your mental wellbeing - but i'm definitely not gonna tell you what to do or feel! just my thoughts as a stranger on the internet reading things you write on a forum.

i'm not saying guilt can't be a useful feeling. it absolutely is if it drives you to do better. i can't tell you what everyone wants from people who make mistakes, but i certainly don't want them to suffer over it. i don't have a lot of room for pettiness and spite in me, to be honest. usually i want an apology and for future actions to show that they're doing their best, you know? the apology doesn't even matter that much if what they do next shows that nothing's changed. words are cheap and actions speak loud. it's not that i think people shouldn't feel guilty or bad ever, it's that wallowing in that guilt becomes a self-centered action.

maybe it's more relevant in activist circles, but pretty much every person with an interest in fighting for human rights has to face their privileges. if they're white, or straight, or cis, or thin, or able-bodied, or well off, recognizing the privilege it gives them within the structure of a society can be a harrowing experience. but as many activists better than me have talked about, constantly beating yourself up about it and making it about you and how bad you feel is NOT helping the cause. acknowledging your part in a skewed society is different than self-flagellation, and there's far more helpful things to put that energy towards.

it's hard work. being a person IS hard work. actively working on bettering your empathy or understanding others is work. but it's good and important work!

self-forgiveness is hard work. to me, it has been absolutely and incredibly vital. i'm not going to go into details, but over the past couple years i've experienced what it's like for someone to truly want to hurt me, to take advantage of my good faith that i've extended over and over, to smear my name, a Whole Lotta Things. a problem i've always had is that i'm a deeply self-sacrificial person who refuses to let go of an idealistic worldview. it's embarassing that i only recently learnt to recognize when people are engaging with me in bad faith and holding my own kindness hostage. during this very painful experiences, i had these choices:

(0) believe everything they said about me even though it had no base in reality, isolate myself from everything and everyone and punish myself forever for being such and awful disgusting person and never make an attempt to have any friends ever again)

1) berate myself for being so STUPID and NAIVE who couldn't deal with this BETTER

2) let myself feel angry and hurt and guilty and upset, understand that i feel what any human would feel, that i acted how any human would act.

2 is what self forgiveness is to me. to accept what i did, what i feel, and what that means for me, and what i can do next. it means not hiding away from the things I did, but accept them as a part of my whole and messy personhood. as another experience in my library.

self forgiveness, for me, means letting myself have boundaries, to understand that i will always dissappoint some people no matter what i do, and it's not wrong of me to do so. it means not burning myself up to keep someone else warm. forgiving everyone but yourself is sheathing swords into your heart over and over until you bleed out. i say that because i've been there, one too many tines. how can you extend all that understanding towards everyone around you and none to yourself?

i'm an agnostic person with very little knowledge about what it's like to be christian, and i have no desire to tell you how to interpret your faith. it's more like i have some questions - if you are loved and created by God, why would you be so disgusted and punishing with yourself? are you absolutely sure that's what He wants from you? i don't think anyone was created perfect and with every knowledge the moment we were born, otherwise there would be no point in the learning experiences you ask for. we are all a work in progress and there's nothing wrong with that. and i personally and agnostically believe the work is whatever effort we choose to place in our learning opportunities.

[thorny]

Spoiler: show

 I'm feeling guilt and self-disgust for a good reason, and it actually is helping me. You may be right that it's not helping others though, if that's what you mean? Now I'm unsure, isn't that what people who have been hurt want the offender to feel...?

Very rapidly:

Not me, anyway. What I want the offender to feel is 'oh! now I understand! and you're right!'

[Gwenno]

Miragia (and anyone else interested) - If you would like to see an example of a Christian comic done well, please give Daughter of the Lillies a read. It is a beautiful and engaging comic, covering themes of self-worth, love and redemption (amongst many other things), and was inspired by the author's Christian faith. She occasionally mentions how elements of Christianity influence her story below the page, but always gives you a bit of a warning first, and it never feels preachy (one example that stands out is page 613 (Chapter 6, Page 13) where a character who did a terrible thing in the past is struggling with whether they deserve forgiveness, and she explains below the page how the concept of Grace works in Christianity and why this is important to her). Another Christian-inspired comic done well is Sithrah. It is a little bit more heavy-handed with its message near the end, but not to the point of diminishing my enjoyment of it  (I'd compare it to The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe, which is Very Christian, but still a Christmas favourite of mine every year). While my personal opinion is that Lovely People didn't manage this, it is very possible to create an enjoyable Christian-inspired comic that doesn't proselytize or belittle non-believers.

I am considering to ask for advice about other topics that are tricky to deal with, but this thread might not be the place for that... Still, can I ask if somewhere in this forum would be a good place to do so, or would bringing up difficult questions just make people upset...?

I second Haiz' suggestion to try looking at the Comfort Corner or the Mini Chapel. I'd also add, that if you are looking for something different, it is possible to Request a Topic (if it is likely to be a difficult topic that needs some mod overview).

this is probably skirting the realm of off-topicity, but i DO feel like it's relevant to a lot of my feelings about the dreaded Afterword so i'm gonna treat myself to one more reply

Spoiler: show

i'm a little afraid of falling into old habits by replying to this...  I Don't Know How To Explain To People That Hating Yourself Isn't That Great

we can agree to disagree, but i think self-disgust and constantly beating yourself up IS relevant to your mental wellbeing - but i'm definitely not gonna tell you what to do or feel! just my thoughts as a stranger on the internet reading things you write on a forum.

i'm not saying guilt can't be a useful feeling. it absolutely is if it drives you to do better. i can't tell you what everyone wants from people who make mistakes, but i certainly don't want them to suffer over it. i don't have a lot of room for pettiness and spite in me, to be honest. usually i want an apology and for future actions to show that they're doing their best, you know? the apology doesn't even matter that much if what they do next shows that nothing's changed. words are cheap and actions speak loud. it's not that i think people shouldn't feel guilty or bad ever, it's that wallowing in that guilt becomes a self-centered action.

maybe it's more relevant in activist circles, but pretty much every person with an interest in fighting for human rights has to face their privileges. if they're white, or straight, or cis, or thin, or able-bodied, or well off, recognizing the privilege it gives them within the structure of a society can be a harrowing experience. but as many activists better than me have talked about, constantly beating yourself up about it and making it about you and how bad you feel is NOT helping the cause. acknowledging your part in a skewed society is different than self-flagellation, and there's far more helpful things to put that energy towards.

it's hard work. being a person IS hard work. actively working on bettering your empathy or understanding others is work. but it's good and important work!

self-forgiveness is hard work. to me, it has been absolutely and incredibly vital. i'm not going to go into details, but over the past couple years i've experienced what it's like for someone to truly want to hurt me, to take advantage of my good faith that i've extended over and over, to smear my name, a Whole Lotta Things. a problem i've always had is that i'm a deeply self-sacrificial person who refuses to let go of an idealistic worldview. it's embarassing that i only recently learnt to recognize when people are engaging with me in bad faith and holding my own kindness hostage. during this very painful experiences, i had these choices:

(0) believe everything they said about me even though it had no base in reality, isolate myself from everything and everyone and punish myself forever for being such and awful disgusting person and never make an attempt to have any friends ever again)

1) berate myself for being so STUPID and NAIVE who couldn't deal with this BETTER

2) let myself feel angry and hurt and guilty and upset, understand that i feel what any human would feel, that i acted how any human would act.

2 is what self forgiveness is to me. to accept what i did, what i feel, and what that means for me, and what i can do next. it means not hiding away from the things I did, but accept them as a part of my whole and messy personhood. as another experience in my library.

self forgiveness, for me, means letting myself have boundaries, to understand that i will always dissappoint some people no matter what i do, and it's not wrong of me to do so. it means not burning myself up to keep someone else warm. forgiving everyone but yourself is sheathing swords into your heart over and over until you bleed out. i say that because i've been there, one too many tines. how can you extend all that understanding towards everyone around you and none to yourself?

i'm an agnostic person with very little knowledge about what it's like to be christian, and i have no desire to tell you how to interpret your faith. it's more like i have some questions - if you are loved and created by God, why would you be so disgusted and punishing with yourself? are you absolutely sure that's what He wants from you? i don't think anyone was created perfect and with every knowledge the moment we were born, otherwise there would be no point in the learning experiences you ask for. we are all a work in progress and there's nothing wrong with that. and I personally and agnostically believe the work is whatever effort we choose to place in our learning opportunities.

You probably don't remember this, but way back when I joined the forum as a newbie artist, you told me off rather firmly for belittling myself and my work when presenting it in a similar way (you have obviously grown as a person and broadened your experience and understanding in this time, as I can see from your message here, but there's a lot of the same feeling too). Anyway, it was the first time anyone had told me to Not Do That, and it did help me realise how toxic that mentality was and eventually put a stop to it, so many thanks  It might be slightly off-topic, but it's a very good message and deserves sharing.

[ChascaKhuno]

Late to the party and all that, because oh boy did this take me a while to process. As someone who doesn't "fit" within most fundementalist religious sects, seeing Minna go down the deep end of evangelicalism really created a pit in my stomach. It echoes the feelings I got when I stayed at a friend's place. Her dad is extremely conservative and christian, and he would hand me flyers on how all non-christians are going to hell and yell about how "those f*gs are taking over media". Since I'm not entirely straight, I felt on my guard every time he was in the same room as me.
Now, after finally building up the courage and looking at the latest updates, as well as the comment section, I feel the same discomfort and it makes it very difficult to appreciate SSSS as I did before. Ironically, in her denouncement of cancel culture, Minna seems to have engaged in it herself by forcefully muting the criticism.

Lastly, as others have mentioned, I fear that she will fall into conspiracy territory. Sorry if this has already been discussed, I only read ~6 pages into the thread, but the combination of evangelicalism (promoting isolation from modern society) and fear-mongering over passports could easily lead Minna down the conspiracy nut rabbit hole.

[ChascaKhuno]

Oh, yes, I forgot to mention one thing. I especially don't like how the authors note seemed to view me as a failed christian.

[Miragia]

this is probably skirting the realm of off-topicity, but i DO feel like it's relevant to a lot of my feelings about the dreaded Afterword so i'm gonna treat myself to one more reply

Spoiler: show

i'm a little afraid of falling into old habits by replying to this...  I Don't Know How To Explain To People That Hating Yourself Isn't That Great

we can agree to disagree, but i think self-disgust and constantly beating yourself up IS relevant to your mental wellbeing - but i'm definitely not gonna tell you what to do or feel! just my thoughts as a stranger on the internet reading things you write on a forum.

i'm not saying guilt can't be a useful feeling. it absolutely is if it drives you to do better. i can't tell you what everyone wants from people who make mistakes, but i certainly don't want them to suffer over it. i don't have a lot of room for pettiness and spite in me, to be honest. usually i want an apology and for future actions to show that they're doing their best, you know? the apology doesn't even matter that much if what they do next shows that nothing's changed. words are cheap and actions speak loud. it's not that i think people shouldn't feel guilty or bad ever, it's that wallowing in that guilt becomes a self-centered action.

maybe it's more relevant in activist circles, but pretty much every person with an interest in fighting for human rights has to face their privileges. if they're white, or straight, or cis, or thin, or able-bodied, or well off, recognizing the privilege it gives them within the structure of a society can be a harrowing experience. but as many activists better than me have talked about, constantly beating yourself up about it and making it about you and how bad you feel is NOT helping the cause. acknowledging your part in a skewed society is different than self-flagellation, and there's far more helpful things to put that energy towards.

it's hard work. being a person IS hard work. actively working on bettering your empathy or understanding others is work. but it's good and important work!

self-forgiveness is hard work. to me, it has been absolutely and incredibly vital. i'm not going to go into details, but over the past couple years i've experienced what it's like for someone to truly want to hurt me, to take advantage of my good faith that i've extended over and over, to smear my name, a Whole Lotta Things. a problem i've always had is that i'm a deeply self-sacrificial person who refuses to let go of an idealistic worldview. it's embarassing that i only recently learnt to recognize when people are engaging with me in bad faith and holding my own kindness hostage. during this very painful experiences, i had these choices:

(0) believe everything they said about me even though it had no base in reality, isolate myself from everything and everyone and punish myself forever for being such and awful disgusting person and never make an attempt to have any friends ever again)

1) berate myself for being so STUPID and NAIVE who couldn't deal with this BETTER

2) let myself feel angry and hurt and guilty and upset, understand that i feel what any human would feel, that i acted how any human would act.

2 is what self forgiveness is to me. to accept what i did, what i feel, and what that means for me, and what i can do next. it means not hiding away from the things I did, but accept them as a part of my whole and messy personhood. as another experience in my library.

self forgiveness, for me, means letting myself have boundaries, to understand that i will always dissappoint some people no matter what i do, and it's not wrong of me to do so. it means not burning myself up to keep someone else warm. forgiving everyone but yourself is sheathing swords into your heart over and over until you bleed out. i say that because i've been there, one too many tines. how can you extend all that understanding towards everyone around you and none to yourself?

i'm an agnostic person with very little knowledge about what it's like to be christian, and i have no desire to tell you how to interpret your faith. it's more like i have some questions - if you are loved and created by God, why would you be so disgusted and punishing with yourself? are you absolutely sure that's what He wants from you? i don't think anyone was created perfect and with every knowledge the moment we were born, otherwise there would be no point in the learning experiences you ask for. we are all a work in progress and there's nothing wrong with that. and i personally and agnostically believe the work is whatever effort we choose to place in our learning opportunities.

Hmm, you may be right. ^^' Sorry, I don't mean to lead things off-topic. I still want to answer those questions though... Um, guess I'll throw in a thought on the Afterword too?

So, something about the Afterword that saddens me is that it threw such harsh preaching at people indiscriminately. It seems important to Minna to point out that Christianity does include difficult topics such as sin and repentance. That's true. Hiding that would not be right, and although views may differ between Christians, talking about it is good. For those who are ready, or claim to be. It shouldn't be thrown in the face of people who are still budding their faith, people who are uncertain if they have a faith, or those don't have one at all. Faith has to be built on trust. And God knows trust is a plant that grows slowly. It can't be forced out of the ground like that.


Anyway... I'm very much impressed by your words. Even if we may not understand each other perfectly, I sense a lot of integrity behind them. I tried my best to explain, but I realize I'm threading on needles with this one... Actually I lost count of how many times I rewrote this trying to avoid potential misunderstandings, but in the end I guess there are no guarantees when we come from such different worlds. ^^'

Spoiler: show

So first off, I can certainly understand why self-forgiveness is very important to you and many others. Though it is difficult for me to imagine myself in the shoes of an agnostic, I do think that you made the right choice. If I did not have God, then I would need self-forgiveness too. Life would be quite unbearable otherwise.

If I understand you right (correct me otherwise), to you, self-forgiveness is self-acceptance, and that's why saying that I don't need it makes me sound like I'm punishing myself to you? Possibly out of laziness because I called it a chore...? Sorry, that was insensitive of me, wasn't it. ^^' Still, I can only say that... I'm not? I guess I can see how it can come across as punishing myself due to holding myself to an impossible standard of perfection, but that's not the case. I'm just being sincere about my feelings. It seems we have different ways to do that.

I don't need self-forgiveness to have self-acceptance. I can face some self-disgust without it leading me to hate myself. You may be right that refusing to have self-forgiveness is like sheathing swords into my heart at times, but I don't bleed out from that. And I won't. As for how I can freely extend forgiveness to others without saving any for myself, it is possible because God forgave me first, and because he taught me. By always forgiving others, I can trust that God will always forgive me. If I had to rely on self-forgiveness to heal myself, it would be an exhaustible resource, and eventually I would probably bleed out one too many times, too. But as a Christian I don't have to rely on myself in my weakness. I can give all of my sin and weakness to God, so that he can forgive me and heal me. In turn, I extend forgiveness to everyone around me, in the hopes that I can ease his burden in that way while he carries mine for me. Although forgiving in this way is also hard work at times, it's not a heavy burden to carry through life.

As for what God wants from me... All God asks of his followers is that we trust and stay with him (= have faith). That's enough. I have never had reason to regret entrusting myself to God. That said, God isn't some imaginary friend whose purpose is to tell me how right I am to make me feel good about myself. To me he is a real friend who tells me off when I'm wrong. He has earned my trust over time, so he knows that my relationship with him can take that. He also supports me through the pain, and heals me from it.

"To accept what I did, what I feel, and what that means for me, and what I can do next. It means not hiding away from the things I did, but accept them as a part of my whole and messy personhood. As another experience in my library." To you, self-forgiveness does this. To me, regret does the exact same thing. So when I make a mistake, first I'll face my regret and reflect on it, then give it to God so I can receive forgiveness and healing from him, then find self-acceptance and move on with my life, hopefully a little wiser.

Lastly, thank you for your very thoughtful response. Being able to write in a way that makes others happy even when you're disagreeing with them is a rare thing. I wish I had your skill. ^^

Very rapidly:

Not me, anyway. What I want the offender to feel is 'oh! now I understand! and you're right!'

Oh. Well, in that case I'm happy I was wrong. ^^

Miragia (and anyone else interested) - If you would like to see an example of a Christian comic done well, please give Daughter of the Lillies a read. It is a beautiful and engaging comic, covering themes of self-worth, love and redemption (amongst many other things), and was inspired by the author's Christian faith. She occasionally mentions how elements of Christianity influence her story below the page, but always gives you a bit of a warning first, and it never feels preachy (one example that stands out is page 613 (Chapter 6, Page 13) where a character who did a terrible thing in the past is struggling with whether they deserve forgiveness, and she explains below the page how the concept of Grace works in Christianity and why this is important to her). Another Christian-inspired comic done well is Sithrah. It is a little bit more heavy-handed with its message near the end, but not to the point of diminishing my enjoyment of it  (I'd compare it to The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe, which is Very Christian, but still a Christmas favourite of mine every year). While my personal opinion is that Lovely People didn't manage this, it is very possible to create an enjoyable Christian-inspired comic that doesn't proselytize or belittle non-believers.

I second Haiz' suggestion to try looking at the Comfort Corner or the Mini Chapel. I'd also add, that if you are looking for something different, it is possible to Request a Topic (if it is likely to be a difficult topic that needs some mod overview).

Thank you for the suggestions! I might check them out~ For now I'll probably wait a bit with diving into more discussions, but it's nice to know that I could ask when I'm ready for it. ^^

[Haiz]

You probably don't remember this, but way back when I joined the forum as a newbie artist, you told me off rather firmly for belittling myself and my work when presenting it in a similar way (you have obviously grown as a person and broadened your experience and understanding in this time, as I can see from your message here, but there's a lot of the same feeling too). Anyway, it was the first time anyone had told me to Not Do That, and it did help me realise how toxic that mentality was and eventually put a stop to it, so many thanks  It might be slightly off-topic, but it's a very good message and deserves sharing.

i don't remember this specific instance, but it sure sounds like me! it's honestly heartening to hear about. when i left i was kind of burned out and things were kind of uncomfortable and messy at the time, which has definitely affected how i have thought back on my time here - logging back in for the first time in so long has been a surprisingly positive experience. thank you for reminding me.


Miragia - we're probably just discussing semantics at this point. thank you for explaining your viewpoints a little deeper. you have something that is important to you and that works for you, and i really hope it lets you live your own life the best you can. i wish you well in dealing with challenges and injustices you may face.


not as a reply to anyone, and i apologize again if it's off topic again - i just fundamentally disagree with any life philosophy that largely deals in guilt and shame and encourages people to beat themselves up. it goes for religion, activism, art, any aspect of existing as a person. it's not that i want to dismiss anyone's very real emotions or struggles with self-worth, but i always feel like there's so many things around us that are already trying to push us down, to snap away any feelings we have that make us feel accomplished. even to the point where we ourselves feel obligated to berate ourselves, or as i often experience - if i don't berate myself, many people interpret it as gloating or putting myself up on a pedestal. sorry, but i refuse to hate myself. i just don't think it serves anyone.

on the same day minna published the first link to lovely people on instagram, i had posted a piece of art from my own story about my own characters. it's not a 'story' in the sense that i'm making a serialized version of it, just a collection of characters and a self-indulgent explorations of reclaiming your personhood and finding peace.

Spoiler: show

all just to say that i deeply disagree with the thesis of minna's comic & afterword, no matter how much i respect her making personal decisions for herself and her career.

[Miragia]

Miragia - we're probably just discussing semantics at this point. thank you for explaining your viewpoints a little deeper. you have something that is important to you and that works for you, and i really hope it lets you live your own life the best you can. i wish you well in dealing with challenges and injustices you may face.


not as a reply to anyone, and i apologize again if it's off topic again - i just fundamentally disagree with any life philosophy that largely deals in guilt and shame and encourages people to beat themselves up. it goes for religion, activism, art, any aspect of existing as a person. it's not that i want to dismiss anyone's very real emotions or struggles with self-worth, but i always feel like there's so many things around us that are already trying to push us down, to snap away any feelings we have that make us feel accomplished. even to the point where we ourselves feel obligated to berate ourselves, or as i often experience - if i don't berate myself, many people interpret it as gloating or putting myself up on a pedestal. sorry, but i refuse to hate myself. i just don't think it serves anyone.

on the same day minna published the first link to lovely people on instagram, i had posted a piece of art from my own story about my own characters. it's not a 'story' in the sense that i'm making a serialized version of it, just a collection of characters and a self-indulgent explorations of reclaiming your personhood and finding peace.

Spoiler: show

all just to say that i deeply disagree with the thesis of minna's comic & afterword, no matter how much i respect her making personal decisions for herself and her career.

The same to you, Haiz. Also, that is a refreshing outlook on life~

[Róisín]

Haiz, that is beautiful. And I too have problems with a system that basically tells me to hate and demean myself.

I feel that I have an obligation to myself, my family and folk, my gods and the world that gave me life to appreciate such skills as I have, put those skills to their best use, and develop them as I can - cultivate the field I have been given, I suppose. And if those skills can be used in ways that help my world, all the better!

[Dainty Speedwalk]

Full disclosure, I didn’t read the comic— I was only a few pages in when I saw that the fandom sort of exploded a bit. Wanting to see what the buzz was about, I skipped to the author’s note, from which I guessed that the comic wouldn’t be my cup of tea.
I have nothing against Christianity. Heck, I might even come back to it. But that note... kind of hurt to read. The whole ‘repent now or burn in hell’ thing, the belittling of other beliefs. The attitude of demeaning and belittling yourself in the name of ‘humility.’ It was so aggressive, and honestly? Scary. See, I used to be afraid of God. Like, the Bible uses the word ‘fear’ to mean a sort of awed respect pretty often. But that’s not what I mean. I was terrified of God. That I wasn’t a good enough Christian, that I wasn’t actually saved, that God was angry with me, and I would go to hell. I found it hard to love God, because that wrath felt like it hung over my head, made it feel like I had no other choice. I don’t want to believe in a God like that. That note reminded me of that fear, that horrible feeling that God was angry with me. It reminded me of how people use religion to oppress people, even though she didn’t say anything to that effect. Just... a lot of feelings, blargh. I respect that Minna found a faith, and am happy for her. It’s just that some of those beliefs are really intimidating to me, and from what I’ve gathered a lot of other people as well.
(Semi-related note, has Minna said her opinions on LGBT+ people? I know a lot of Christians are supportive, but this made me worry about that, too, though maybe irrationally.)

[Umbral Reaver]

(Semi-related note, has Minna said her opinions on LGBT+ people? I know a lot of Christians are supportive, but this made me worry about that, too, though maybe irrationally.)

I don't have high hopes. The comic itself makes demeaning jokes about gender neutrality in the context of the Bible v.2.

As an aside, the bibles commonly used today are more like... Bible v.20 or something. The Bible is not a static thing. It changed over and over again throughout the ages, by actions of the church to revise it, schisms, translations, retranslations, modernisations.

Did you know that the earliest known record of the Bible condemning homosexuality is a version printed in 1946?

[Tarnagh]

Did you know that the earliest known record of the Bible condemning homosexuality is a version printed in 1946?

I did not and I would like to know more about this. I would have thought the 1611 KJV would have had that locked down.

[Umbral Reaver]

I did not and I would like to know more about this. I would have thought the 1611 KJV would have had that locked down.

First printed in the Revised Standard Version in 1946:

https://um-insight.net/perspectives/has-%E2%80%9Chomosexual%E2%80%9D-always-been-in-the-bible/

[Hedge]

Bringing this back to the 'content warning' idea for a moment. (And I will say, I prefer the name 'content warning' to 'trigger warning' because while all trigger warnings are content warnings, not all content warnings are trigger warnings. For example, movie ratings for 'sex' or 'extreme violence' are content warnings, but not trigger warnings.)

I think the talk about "Well real life doesn't warn for content, so I'm not going to warn for my comic" is disingenuous because it misses the entire point: that this is a comic to be read for fun.

Yes, of course real life isn't going to have content warnings before something horrible happens. Tragedy happens with no warning whatsoever sometimes. But a comic isn't real life. Reading a comic is an activity people do for fun. And when people go looking for something to do for fun, they're going to read reviews and summaries to find something they personally want to do.

Here is an example of what I mean: I don't like spiders. I REALLY don't like spiders. In real life if I see a spider I have to call in someone else to take the spider out of my room and move it outside. Or if it's in a public space I quickly move away from it. So when I'm looking for something to do in my free time, I still don't want to see spiders. So if I see a warning of "hey, this page here has lots of pictures of cute little jumping spiders" I say "awesome, good for you, enjoy those pictures. I'm going to go somewhere else, thank you." I don't expect people to jump in and tell me "hey Maple there's a spider in your bedroom", because that's not realistic. But if people post pictures of spiders all over a web page without at least going "there be spiders here" then I get annoyed, because I don't want to spend what little free time I have looking at spiders! I want to do something else!

That's a bit simplistic of an answer, but it's the idea. Entertainment comes with content warnings all the time so people can make a personal judgement of if they want to consume that entertainment. Movie ratings, series summaries, book reviews, that sort of thing. Content warnings are everywhere in entertainment, because entertainment is supposed to be fun and making informed choices on entertainment is important to having that fun.

I just think it misses the mark to go "Real life doesn't have content warnings", because that's not the point. You don't see people saying "Real life doesn't come with ratings, so let's remove ratings from movies."

Just popping back in to say the whole "well real life doesn't have content/trigger warnings" thing is just so bloody irritating because it feels like saying you can't guarantee you'll never be in a car crash so there's no point in driving carefully. Like the fact that you can't always avoid an unpleasant thing isn't a reason not to try and avoid it. Real life has unmarked cliffs but that's not a reason not to put safety warning signs in front of sharp drops. We can't control for every risk but that's not an argument for never trying, particularly when it comes to risks that are under your control.