Author Topic: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'  (Read 131032 times)

tzelly

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #330 on: March 27, 2021, 09:44:30 PM »
WARNING: This post contains political opinions. If you don't want to be exposed to that, feel free to move along. I won't be hurt.
Spoiler: show
I'll begin by saying that Christian fundamentalism isn't something I've had many personal experiences with. I didn't have a religious upbringing like some of you and have thankfully spent my life shielded from the worst excesses of the Christian faith. The closest I ever really got was the boy scouts. As much as I would love to talk about the fantastic character design or art style and the good commentary in the first two acts, I cannot do that with a clean conscience.
While I agree that a hypercapitalist totalitarian world government would be one of the worst fates that could befall humankind, and the idea of a social credit system goes against all of my values, I cannot agree with Minna's conclusions. It's good to look at modern culture critically, it's good to be nervous about the ramifications of new technologies, but rejecting technology and modern culture outright is a recipe for disaster. In the comic Alizongle is bad for stating that there is only one way a good person should be thinking. However, there's no material difference between that and holding up a bible while shouting "My way is the only way to salvation. You are all sinners, and nothing you do will change that. Unless, of course, you follow the instructions in my book to the letter. If you don't, you hate God and you hate me."
A religious government can be just as cruel, self-serving, and totalitarian as Alizongle and the World Council are, if not worse. The United States, my home country, is a veritable machine for pumping out bizarre fundamentalist sects. Look at the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, the Amish, the Westboro Baptist Church. Look at the dominionists, and the groups fusing fundamentalism with white nationalism. Look at what happened in Waco. And of course, there's practically the entire history of medieval and renaissance Europe.
None of this is touched on in Lovely People, because Minna seems to think that conservative Christians are the victims in our modern day society.
I don't know how to end this. I've gotten myself all worked up and now I don't have a conclusion.


Very well said, and thanks you for adding a warning.

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catbirds

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #331 on: March 27, 2021, 09:46:25 PM »
I didn't see intolerant messages in her story, it was pretty much just the classic dystopia formula but with a Christian theme mixed in. The main christian point in it was just people reading the bible, how is that so offensive? Were the christian bunnies suppressing anyone, or in any way doing anything deemed offensive other than reading a book? I just find it really Ironic that a story about people being rejected from society just for reading the bible, is offending people because it has Christian themes and causing them to be "disappointed" in Minna. Well, I guess her score is gonna go down a big chunk from this story.

No, the comic is about Christian bunnies being persecuted for being Christian, which does not happen in most western countries. Also, the comic goes out of its way to mock the use of inclusive pronouns and content warning labels, which is basically common courtesy on the internet now. If she wanted to make a story about a marginalized group being persecuted, then she should have written a story about a marginalized group being persecuted and done the necessary research. It's not impossible to write a rich story about another culture. For example, Coco was written by someone who just did research on Mexican culture. Minna just chose not to do that, and that's on her.

Róisín

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #332 on: March 27, 2021, 09:58:23 PM »
Okay, weighing in on this discussion from another viewpoint, that of a person who is old and has a fairly wide life experience, and who is a lifelong Pagan coming from a large and diverse family that encompassed several kinds of Pagans, several kinds of Christians, Buddhists, Jews and even a Quaker, plus atheists and agnostics. I am also a person who is curious about and interested in everything, including how people think, why they think or believe as they do and how that relates to the people around them.

To further complicate my viewpoint, I was homeschooled, largely by some of the older adults of my family, until my teens, in a multilingual, multifaith environment with access to a large and multilingual, many generations deep family library, (the internet was not yet invented) as well as access to the family farm and several different wild environments. As an older child I moved, with a small part of my family, from Europe to a farm in country Victoria, Australia. My mother had died when I was a small child, in a tuberculosis epidemic, and for much of my childhood I was lucky to see my father at intervals of several months, if even that often, because he was, like my grandfather, an army field medic.  Then he was on active duty overseas, then a prisoner of war who suffered badly from the experience, after which my older brother and I, as well as several older relatives cared for him as we could in between his frequent hospital stays. I also began at that point in my life to attend a formal state school, and then to win scholarships to university, which my family could not otherwise have afforded. I did what nowadays would be called STEM subjects, while working several part time jobs  to help support my family. I was in my teens when my dad remarried to a cousin of my late mother who was a Christian, and a widow with one child.

So I set myself to learn all I could about Christianity so as to be able to have a civilised dialogue on the subject with her, (being curious about everything) and hopefully not to give offence to her. My brother and I had not expected her assumption that once we were shown the One True Way we would of course convert instantly, nor the tactless, heavy handed and downright rude proselytising that we suffered, but we coped and in the end settled down to a civilised and mutually respectful family arrangement in which all parties came eventually to respect one another. I grew to respect her, and was grieved by her death.

Anyway, I grew up. Married. My first husband was a Pagan like myself though of a different kind. We gave the kids their own choice, having both understood early in our lives that religious faith was a matter between the individual soul and its god or gods, and both felt that this relationship was nobody else’s business unless it led to actions that intruded on other people.

I was widowed young, years later married an Anglican Christian, and am still happily married. Both of us retain our own faiths. He used to proselytise when he was young, but outgrew the tendency, and his proselytising probably did more good than harm, because it took the form of bearing witness and doing good. He and a group of his Young Anglican friends used to do what they called Beach Missions, where they would join the families and most particularly the surfers at seaside campgrounds and just be Christians. This suited Star, as he was a keen scuba diver and underwater photographer and was quite ready to share these skills with other people. They would have their Christian symbols around their camp, and the usual tracts and bibles, and would happily talk about their faith with anyone who wanted to, while they handed out water and sunscreen, and the members of their group who had training in those areas volunteered as surf lifesavers, first aiders, or did shark watch. I consider that a reasonable way to go about things, agreeing that ‘faith without works is dead’, and that loving and caring for one’s fellow man is a part of the Christian contract, at least the version of it inspired by the Christ.

There are a few other things I would like to talk about, but this is turning into a wall of text, so more later.
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Tarnagh

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #333 on: March 27, 2021, 10:00:27 PM »
:'D:'D:'D Ok so are you 14, are you a troll or are you Minna?

Seriously now, we've been having over 20 pages of pretty nuanced and civil discussion of what various people do and don't like about the comic. Feel free to read it before casting stones, if you're so interested in why people are upset. But for starters I'm ready to bet you real money that nobody in this thread wants Orwell's books burned, that's hilarious. And absolutely nobody is pro threats and violence towards artists, that's not funny and just honestly rude of you to assume before reading any of our comments.
100% all of this. On balance, after the last few comments, I'm settling on "troll." I award them one (1) response before relegating them to the oblivion folder:
Spoiler: show
To me it almost seems like a lot of the people commenting didn't even read the story, and are just using it as an excuse to talk about how bad and intolerant they think Christianity is.
If that is your take-away from the last 22 pages, you definitely didn't even skim these comments with enough depth to have an informed opinion on any of us.

Yes, in fact, we did read the comic. You'd know that if you'd bothered to actually truly read (even better: try to have some compassion or empathy for) anything that's been said here.
her youtube video said something along the lines of "it's having the effect that I was hoping it would have," so whoever it was who brought up the possibility that this reaction was what she was hoping would happen... I guess you've won the world's worst lottery?
That'd have been me, I'm afraid. I'm used to being a Cassandra, and I know how the fundie mind works, sadly. I expected no less.
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tzelly

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #334 on: March 27, 2021, 10:04:18 PM »
People need trigger warnings for such things now? A cute bunny dystopia story with no violence or severe conflict, just a bible and black mirror themes, that's some very scarring stuff.

Well, if bunnies need content warnings then it is indeed worthy of being mocked. As far as the pronoun thing, it must have been subtle and in the background as I didn't notice anything like that.

First of all. We dont expect you to read everything if you dont want to. But I dout you've read anything people are saying at this point. Feels like skimming for key words to attack and make up the rest due to pre-affirmed assumption you came into the room with.

Trigger warnings are important, why? A person who was heavily traumatized by domestic violence could have a PTSD episode from content that is too close to what they experienced. A trigger warning is in place so they can decide  if such content is too much for them and they can avoid it. Same applies to other forms of trauma.

Are you willing to be open minded to other people's experiences could be different then your own? Or is this insensitive behavior going to continue?

catbirds

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #335 on: March 27, 2021, 10:06:14 PM »
People need trigger warnings for such things now? A cute bunny dystopia story with no violence or severe conflict, just a bible and black mirror themes, that's some very scarring stuff.

Like many people said earlier in the thread, the comic itself was just... not very good by many people's standards. If you found it compelling, that's your own opinion. No one has to find a good story good or a bad story bad, they're pretty subjective. The problem was that the afterword reminded people of traumatic experiences with Christianity (verbatim, apparently), and they got blindsided by it because the bunny comic was, as you said, a cute bunny dystopia story.

I feel like the best thing the fandom can do is let people know about that through this thread, hence the warning at the start.

Well, if bunnies need content warnings then it is indeed worthy of being mocked. As far as the pronoun thing, it must have been subtle and in the background as I didn't notice anything like that.

The bunnies themselves were not traumatizing for people. The pronoun thing is also very subtle, but it's mostly based on page 39 I think. The bottom panel mocked inclusive language that changed whatever the original text was to "Father/Mother/Universe," which seems to many people to be about how many texts went from using exclusively he or she to using he/she/they. You can take of it what you will, but when some people see things like this, it reminds them of when they were mocked for using pronouns which more accurately reflect their gender identity.

Yuuago

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #336 on: March 27, 2021, 10:10:17 PM »
Trigger warnings are important, why? A person who was heavily traumatized by domestic violence could have a PTSD episode from content that is too close to what they experienced. A trigger warning is in place so they can decide  if such content is too much for them and they can avoid it. Same applies to other forms of trauma.

Personally, I'm a fan of full and accurate description/summary of contents in general - knowing what a work is about can be pretty useful when deciding whether or not to read something even when triggers aren't a factor.
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tzelly

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #337 on: March 27, 2021, 10:14:47 PM »
Personally, I'm a fan of full and accurate description/summary of contents in general - knowing what a work is about can be pretty useful when deciding whether or not to read something even when triggers aren't a factor.

Absolutely, I read alot of Audio books, and I always read the summary to see if its something I am interested in at the time. Its very important to include an accurate one for any story, comic, etc.

moredhel

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #338 on: March 27, 2021, 10:36:33 PM »
Why isn't an artist allowed to express herself honestly anymore? Why is it such a problem to write anything even slightly controversial or challenging to the status quo?

It is allowed to express feelings honestly. If you express someting controversial, other people are allowed to express honestly their feelings of not liking it. That a significant propotion of the audience does not like it, is pretty much part of the deifinition of controversial.

Nobody did try to not allow anything here. I did not read that somebody wanted to sue someone or bring someone to jail. Nobody was threatened in any way. Everybody discussed in a civilized way and that is fine.

Kevin_Redcrow

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #339 on: March 27, 2021, 10:59:10 PM »
. He and a group of his Young Anglican friends used to do what they called Beach Missions, where they would join the families and most particularly the surfers at seaside campgrounds and just be Christians. This suited Star, as he was a keen scuba diver and underwater photographer and was quite ready to share these skills with other people. They would have their Christian symbols around their camp, and the usual tracts and bibles, and would happily talk about their faith with anyone who wanted to, while they handed out water and sunscreen, and the members of their group who had training in those areas volunteered as surf lifesavers, first aiders, or did shark watch.

I've just learned something new.  Seriously, I had no idea that Anglicans evangelized.

Here in the United Snakes the Anglican Church is known the Episcopal Church. I once knew a man who'd grown up in an abusive family of a non-christian faith. He became a rabid atheist until he got into a recovery program.  At some point he attended an Episcopal Sunday Service out of curioslity where, he said years later, he had a "White Light" experience.

I don't know if he continued to attend, but he did call that church "Catholicism without the guilt".

Róisín

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #340 on: March 27, 2021, 11:41:19 PM »
It depends, I think, on the particular sub-sect of Anglicanism, and on the individuals involved. Such Anglican outreach as I have encountered was generally of the ‘witnessing to their faith by their deeds’ variety, and often involved a group of their members doing socially useful stuff such as assisting in the cleanup after disasters, fundraising for the fire services or the Flying Doctor, or running a soup kitchen (back when I lived in Melbourne I volunteered in one of those as a cook, because it fitted into my life as a socially useful thing I could do that could be squeezed into the gaps of times and places I could manage in my wildly busy life). The minister in charge, and his co-manager who was an Anglican lady whom I had known from the Country Women’s Association when we both lived further out, both knew I was a Pagan and that the friend who often came along with me to help when we had the same finishing time at work was a Catholic, but they were glad to have the help, because what they were doing was desperately needed. I stayed friends with both of them for many years.

Anglicans, in my small experience, are usually not the people banging on your door and shoving tracts into your hands, or the ones bailing you up in the street, in the library or at some public event, sometimes with a literal megaphone  as well as a metaphorical one, and telling you that you are damned to hell by original sin and only total and unquestioning submission to their version of their god will save your innately sinful soul. But I can only speak from my own experience. Do we have any Anglicans here who can clarify?
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pinkysaxton

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #341 on: March 28, 2021, 12:47:18 AM »
Anyway, any dissenting responses to her comic are going to be ignored now, just as a heads-up. Minna's stated on her twitch stream today that she has no intention of tagging it or giving a warning or even accurate description of it in the comic summary, and her youtube video said something along the lines of "it's having the effect that I was hoping it would have," so whoever it was who brought up the possibility that this reaction was what she was hoping would happen... I guess you've won the world's worst lottery?

I've been searching for updates on CoH (to confirm that Minna's lost interest) and found a previous transcript of her live chats. (Posted October 19, 2018) At one point she's asked about internet drama. While she said she tries to stay out of it, because it's too much effort to get worked up about, Minna is very clear and repetitive that she likes watching the drama. In the context, it sounds like she'd rather be further back, and thinks the people who are in it cause it for the fame. But I think her comment about the comic having the right effect could be a decision to start some drama, then watch with "her bowl of popcorn" as she said years ago.
We've hashed out her narcissistic response of, "Don't worry, I'm not upset by your concerns." Now I'm quite certain that this sudden drop without any real teaser of the comic subject might not just be to lull people into reading it. (Or pushing us away, as it was hypothesized early.) We were told the day of/after the drop that she was reading all the comments. And now we see how Insta and Twitter are praising her and that the newest comments on 409 are generally defensive of her choices. It looks to me like a piece of why she released Lovely People and responded to the criticism this way is likely that she wanted that extra icing on the cake of internet drama surrounding her – without being an active player in the turmoil. Everyone else is stirring it up for her.

Engelszorn

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #342 on: March 28, 2021, 01:15:44 AM »
I've been searching for updates on CoH (to confirm that Minna's lost interest) and found a previous transcript of her live chats. (Posted October 19, 2018) At one point she's asked about internet drama. While she said she tries to stay out of it, because it's too much effort to get worked up about, Minna is very clear and repetitive that she likes watching the drama. In the context, it sounds like she'd rather be further back, and thinks the people who are in it cause it for the fame. But I think her comment about the comic having the right effect could be a decision to start some drama, then watch with "her bowl of popcorn" as she said years ago.
We've hashed out her narcissistic response of, "Don't worry, I'm not upset by your concerns." Now I'm quite certain that this sudden drop without any real teaser of the comic subject might not just be to lull people into reading it. (Or pushing us away, as it was hypothesized early.) We were told the day of/after the drop that she was reading all the comments. And now we see how Insta and Twitter are praising her and that the newest comments on 409 are generally defensive of her choices. It looks to me like a piece of why she released Lovely People and responded to the criticism this way is likely that she wanted that extra icing on the cake of internet drama surrounding her – without being an active player in the turmoil. Everyone else is stirring it up for her.

I stayed away from her newest video because I had a hunch I would not like her reaction towards the discussion it has caused - nor would I like to hear her clarify her intention behind it. Causing drama for her own entertainment is not a a great character-trait to have. It's manipulative as f***. I don't know her personally, which makes me feel icky speculating about her character, so I'll just say to each and everyone who expected something different from her as a human being and by extension her comic(s): don't confuse being friendly with being a friend and an ally. I'm pretty sure that I don't need to "preach" that to people from groups that have been marginalized because of their appearance and sexual orientation and thus always are on their toes.. but I guess that is exactly what's happened. People felt safe enough to create a space around that fandom because they met like-minded people. Minna, just like with the drama-watching, had nothing to do with that.

Tarnagh

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #343 on: March 28, 2021, 01:42:48 AM »
I've been searching for updates on CoH (to confirm that Minna's lost interest) and found a previous transcript of her live chats. (Posted October 19, 2018) At one point she's asked about internet drama. While she said she tries to stay out of it, because it's too much effort to get worked up about, Minna is very clear and repetitive that she likes watching the drama. In the context, it sounds like she'd rather be further back, and thinks the people who are in it cause it for the fame. But I think her comment about the comic having the right effect could be a decision to start some drama, then watch with "her bowl of popcorn" as she said years ago.
We've hashed out her narcissistic response of, "Don't worry, I'm not upset by your concerns." Now I'm quite certain that this sudden drop without any real teaser of the comic subject might not just be to lull people into reading it. (Or pushing us away, as it was hypothesized early.) We were told the day of/after the drop that she was reading all the comments. And now we see how Insta and Twitter are praising her and that the newest comments on 409 are generally defensive of her choices. It looks to me like a piece of why she released Lovely People and responded to the criticism this way is likely that she wanted that extra icing on the cake of internet drama surrounding her – without being an active player in the turmoil. Everyone else is stirring it up for her.
I honestly think it goes beyond this. There's no such thing as bad publicity, after all.

Moderately harsh viewpoint on where this ends up. Spoilered for anyone who doesn't want to deal with a mini-rant.
Spoiler: show
By not placing a synopsis on the new comic she has put her current fanbase ... well, where we're currently at in this thread. But she's also cultivating a *new* fanbase of the more religious types. You can see them posting all up & down the comments on 409. I've been calling them Jesus Minnions. She's deliberately setting up a situation where she can feel entirely justified in her decision that ultimately drives away a significant number of her current fanbase, validating the "Christian persecution" complex: "They don't like me any more now that I'm a Christian!" Which has absolutely NOT been the case from anyone I've seen comment - even from those of us who have been badly hurt by her apparent flavor of Christianity. She's also simultaneously cultivating an entirely new fanbase that will be happy to tell her how Right and Proper her decision was. The "sinners" have been separated from the "faithful." She might not even realize this is what she's doing. It's still going to be the end result. She'll have a like-minded echo chamber and her new work will cater to that audience. I suspect the quality of her work will suffer for it, but they won't care as long as it reinforces what they all want to hear. And I find that to be a crying shame, because she has a lot of imagination and creativity to have invented the stories she's told. I hope she remains happy catering to their narrow view of the world because they surely will turn on her if she strays from what they find acceptable. And yes, I can appreciate the irony of writing that when on the surface it seems that's what we're going to be doing by walking away from her new work if it's heavy-handed religious messaging. The difference is that was never the type of content any of us signed up for, didn't ask for, and wouldn't have ever followed in the first place. If that's where she's going with it, that's certainly her right and more power to her. None of us are going to tell her she's wrong, or she's straying from the path, or she's lapsing, or any of the other control-hooks they use to keep their people in line. Writing religious content for that type of religious person is going to absolutely lead to that in the perhaps not so long term, as soon as she attempts any kind of creativity they don't like. I could almost feel sorry for her. Hopefully, she's smart enough and has a strong enough support system in her parents to be able to someday escape it herself if it becomes needful. At the bottom of everything, I'm still worried about her. Too much of what she's said is too consistent with what I got out of a long time ago for me not to be.
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wavewright62

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #344 on: March 28, 2021, 03:34:36 AM »
We have been here a week now, and I don't know about you, but it feels a lot longer.
*mod hat firmly ON*
I need to remind you to please keep the discussion civil.  We have had many of you come out of the woodwork for a place to sort out your own thoughts and feelings about 'Lovely People', and posted some really insightful dialogue and essays.
We've had some back and forth on dogma, scripture, fandom drama, storytelling, and personal experiences, and I applaud the grace of those who have listened and learnt something via the dialogue.

Armchair diagnoses of mental illness and psychological issues in others, are deeply offensive and not acceptable.  (In this context, 'crazy', 'narcissistic', 'manipulative', and the like)  This is especially true in light of the spaces we maintain to enable people to talk about their own struggles with mental health and personal crises, in a supportive and non-judgemental environment.
Belittling our younger members (what are you, 14?) is not acceptable.  (11yo girls are the most justice-minded people on the planet, change my mind.)  Please keep in mind that not all of us possess good grammar, compelling essay skills, and/or command of English.  Naivete is also not a sackable offense.
If someone's comments are aggressive or confrontational, it doesn't give you licence to reply in kind.  Consider professional sport, where 'but they started it' doesn't save you from a trip to the penalty box.
Shouting others down by simply repeating your statements is not acceptable (granted, not a lot of that at this point, but after a week it's a danger). 

*mod hat off*
I quite like spoiler approach as recently demonstrated by Tarnagh and Jellyfish.  This does allow for a bit of a rant under a suitable warning, 'yelling into a pillow' in the apt phrase.  (Posting content warnings on statements is, shall I say, a key take-home from this week.)  Keep it classy, stay within the Forum quidelines, and you're good to go.  That doesn't mean tit-for-tat and insults will be acceptable under the spoilers.
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