Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'

[Jitter]

I strongly agree with Mirasol! @wavewright62 if you please could add it a warning or content description!

[Engelszorn]

Hello, first time post - so this kinda doubles as an intro, I guess? I haven't been part of an active fandom in years, I just read the comments and often wanted to post, but never gotten around to doing so. Well, I nearly did back when Minna first posted that she had converted. Her converting to christiany was a huh?! moment for me, but to each their own! What really pained me was her believe that her success as an artist was somewhat undeserved and.. and I can't remember her exact wording, but I felt that her success was troubling her. Which is odd in my eyes, as she is living her dream and was able to afford her lifestyle through her commitment and hard work. I've been trying to write and draw my own comics and I certainly don't want to give the impression that I'm envious of her, it was just that hearing her talk about her negative feelings and being judgmental towards her own work wasn't something that I wanted or needed to hear. However, someone living in Finland writing and drawing her own comic is not responsible for my feelings and related short-comings and that's why I never posted my comment.

I see the Bunny comic perhaps as a critique of people who dismiss believers. I think she was certain that a lot of fans would be drop her once she made her conversion known and the exact extent of her belief and this could very well be why she thinks christians are oppressed. I know that certain groups of christianity truly believe they are oppressed, but it was a thought that crossed my mind and I just had to add it here. I mean, I can pretend and acknowledge that I'm responsible for my feelings and I can't put the blame on Minna - trying to act like her epilogue did not have an affect on me just isn't happening. I also would want her to acknowldge that this isn't just a comic about some random characters but that it does comes with some harsh words concerning religion as well.

My impression of the comic is: great art - I really wish she would put as much effort into SSSS (again?), great characters and great paneling, but it falls short on almost every other aspect, including the religious message. The bunnies not helping suffering bunnies was what got me the most. I grew up in a rather religious region in germany and while neither my family nor myself are religiously inclined, the christian message was drilled into us from a very early age, help the poor and the suffering. It was just so central to the belief that I can't think of a good or even acceptable reason why Minna's bunnies acted the way she made them.

In my long years online as an artist or simple spectator this will be something I'll not forget, that's for sure and I've been privy to some strange shenanigans! Will I read Minna's new work if it's based around her interpretation of christianity - no. I was planning to put SSSS on hold, simply because there are a few issues with adventure 2 that I didn't like, now that she has announced a chapter break she beat me to it. Currently I am not really looking forward to the new chapter, so I'll pick it up at a later date.

[Gwenno]

On the topic of trigger-warnings. I do think that one would be very appropriate for this story, reading here how many people were hurt by its message and/or facing things that caused them trauma with no warning. I hope Minna adds one eventually, though I kinda doubt it...

But I would suggest implementing a warning on the first post in this thread too, in case someone stumbles across the bunny-comic on the forum first before the SSSS-website. Then at least we could avoid such situations coming from here.

I strongly agree with Mirasol! @wavewright62 if you please could add it a warning or content description!

That's a very good point, thank you for pointing it out. I've added a quick warning at the start of the thread for now but might make it more comprehensive later on.

[wavewright62]

I strongly agree with Mirasol! @wavewright62 if you please could add it a warning or content description!

Whoops, looks like Gwenno beat me to it. 
I admit that when I came in here a week ago (only a week, really??) I was a stunned mullet.  I'd managed to find the comic after querying one of my mutuals who was live-blogging ectstatically about it all morning on tumblr (I guess the GOD IS GOOOODDDD!!!!! tags shoulda been a tip-off).  I hadn't received a Hummingfluff email, there was no indication otherwise.  And then I read it, and my reaction was a *ahem* lot less ecstatic.

I felt I had to post the link for the benefit of everybody who'd been hanging on tenterhooks waiting for it, but couldn't find anything else to say, so I created the thread and went to go have my own crisis.  I admit it didn't occur to me to post a trigger warning.  My apologies. 

I'm glad this thread has served as a lightning rod for folks wanting to express their feelings about the comic, and gosh, I'm heartened by the response.  Not so much that people are leaving the fandom (because I won't lie, I mourn each and every one), but because so many of you have used this opportunity to sort out and express vital emotions in engaging ways. 

Me, I'm just about ready to start making jokes again.  I'm one of those for whom snark is my coping strategy. 

[thorny]

That's a very good point, thank you for pointing it out. I've added a quick warning at the start of the thread for now but might make it more comprehensive later on.

I think the warning is a good idea; but I'd recommend rephrasing it, for two reasons:

one, the problem isn't just that it's Christian. I don't think anybody's upset simply because Minna's declared herself a Christian (and, Engelszorn, I don't think you meant this but I also don't think anybody's said they would leave the comic solely for that reason.) The problem is what kind of Christian, and that she's saying everyone else must become Christian also. Maybe something like 'contains very strong Christian proselytizing elements'?

and two: people have posted in this thread -- and they were very much right to do so -- descriptions of their own negative experiences and damage done to them by this sort of Christianity. I repeat: I think and feel that they were very much right to do so. However, some others who have also had such experiences might be upset by coming across these descriptions if not warned. I'm not sure how to word this; maybe someone who has had to deal with this personally could make a suggestion?


wavewright62, re the joke: I laughed!

[Tarnagh]

I think the warning is a good idea; but I'd recommend rephrasing it, for two reasons:

one, the problem isn't just that it's Christian. I don't think anybody's upset simply because Minna's declared herself a Christian (and, Engelszorn, I don't think you meant this but I also don't think anybody's said they would leave the comic solely for that reason.) The problem is what kind of Christian, and that she's saying everyone else must become Christian also. Maybe something like 'contains very strong Christian proselytizing elements'?

and two: people have posted in this thread -- and they were very much right to do so -- descriptions of their own negative experiences and damage done to them by this sort of Christianity. I repeat: I think and feel that they were very much right to do so. However, some others who have also had such experiences might be upset by coming across these descriptions if not warned. I'm not sure how to word this; maybe someone who has had to deal with this personally could make a suggestion?


wavewright62, re the joke: I laughed!

For my part, I can say it isn't even what kind of Christian she's chosen to be. I could deal with that as long as she was capable of leaving it out of her current work with SSSS - as unlikely as that might be. It's the absolute, unapologetic disregard for how she's genuinely hurt people while simultaneously making it all about herself:

So don't worry. I'm even surprised how non-hurt I feel, ...

As one of the people who has dealt with this, I'm trying to think myself of how that warning could be worded. Perhaps something like "Content warning for those who have been hurt by toxic Christianity?" While also letting them know that this thread is a safe place for them to try and sort out their own feelings on the matter, if they choose to read it.

And I laughed as well, wavewright62.

[Gwenno]

Thanks for your suggestions all. I've changed the current warning to:

Lovely People contains very strong Christian proselytizing elements while the thread contains personal experiences with toxic Christianity which may be distressing to some.

My own experiences with both keeping a Christian faith, and encountering toxic Christianity, are much milder than many noted within this thread, so if there is anything missing, or anything that could be phrased better there's no problem adapting it until it's fit for purpose

[Tarnagh]

Lovely People contains very strong Christian proselytizing elements while the thread contains personal experiences with toxic Christianity which may be distressing to some.

Sums it up nicely, Gwenno! Thank you!

[Miragia]

Hello. I'm another one who never commented before, even if I sometimes read a few comments on the comic. This time, I came here to read them because I want to understand. Maybe I never will, since I have never had to live in fear. I hope that I can be forgiven for that. Still, I am sorry for all the pain and suffering that has been inflicted in the name of my faith. I have one thing to share with all of you who have been hurt:

Matthew 5:11-12
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven.

I will not pray for you unless you ask me to. Instead I will pray for everyone who has insulted you, persecuted you, and falsely said all kinds of evil things against you because of my Lord Jesus Christ, because they need it (and hopefully don't have any complaints about being prayed for).

Before I finished reading this thread I was about to write much longer, but I realize there is too much I don't know. I enjoyed Lovely People, in particular the part about Peter and forgiveness, because I have been there myself once. I was focused on that part, and even if the afterword may have been a bit harsh, it did not resonate with me as having any ill intent. But maybe I also need to take a good look at myself. It's not like my God needs me to defend him, anyway. Especially not against wounded people crying out in pain. Thank you, everyone sharing your experiences, for helping me see a little clearer.

[PyroDesu]

But maybe I also need to take a good look at myself. It's not like my God needs me to defend him, anyway. Especially not against wounded people crying out in pain. Thank you, everyone sharing your experiences, for helping me see a little clearer.

A very, very hard one.

Because you just repeated one of Minna's major errors.

Matthew 5:11-12 is not "don't worry about My people persecuting you, I still love you."

The ninth beatitude is addressed to the disciples. Not non-believers. It's almost certainly based on Isaiah 51:7, "Listen to me, you who know righteousness, you people who have my teaching in your hearts; do not fear the reproach of others, and do not be dismayed when they revile you."

Both are statements essentially saying, "you're going to be persecuted for believing in Me. Even by some who claim to speak in My name. But you know My truth and I love you more than them".

I get you almost certainly mean well, but quoting the bible, especially passages that are in context, defensive of the faithful, at people who have been harmed by this is so incredibly insensitive.

[Kevin_Redcrow]

By now any comment I could make about about the motivations, spiritual beliefs, or psycho/social dynamics of this affair has been well-said by many people here.

All I can do now is share my personal sadness and disillusion.

I did not see this coming.

I had made assumptions about Ms. Sundeberg based at the content of RTD and SSSS.  I did not look at her social media, other than a couple of youtube videos.

The imagination, skillful  story telling, humor, character portrayal, and delightful artwork blew me away.

Above all, I loved the pan-spirituality in the story, a possibility which resonates with me. I enjoyed how the main characters expressed different aspects of spiritual belief in real-life kind of ways:

    • Lalli stubbornly performs rites when he sees fit; such as the prayer for moonlight in the train station and the vigil for Tuuri as she passed into the Afterlife
    • Reynir’s bashful prayer for guidance to find his path and talents
    • Sigrun’s half-serious declaration that she does not deserve Valhalla because of her imagined failure as a  leader
    • Emil’s dawning realization that there might be more to life than seeking luxury
    • Pastor Anne who is kindly and non-judgmental with the two Heathen boys who’ve blundered into her domain, and stays behind in this world to help those who need it

This just does not seem to be the product of a mind which would embrace a rigid fundamentalist view where there is no room for questioning or speculation.

Someone said here that the effect of this affair turned SSSS from something very special to ‘just another webcomic’. That’s what it feels like to me right now.

In the end, it is what it is.  If Minna finds peace and happiness embracing this world-view, I can accept that.  Somehow she’ll have to live with the contradictions and horrifying implications of that dogma.

I couldn’t.

[Maple]

Hello. I'm another one who never commented before, even if I sometimes read a few comments on the comic. This time, I came here to read them because I want to understand. Maybe I never will, since I have never had to live in fear. I hope that I can be forgiven for that. Still, I am sorry for all the pain and suffering that has been inflicted in the name of my faith. I have one thing to share with all of you who have been hurt:

Matthew 5:11-12
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven.

I will not pray for you unless you ask me to. Instead I will pray for everyone who has insulted you, persecuted you, and falsely said all kinds of evil things against you because of my Lord Jesus Christ, because they need it (and hopefully don't have any complaints about being prayed for).

Before I finished reading this thread I was about to write much longer, but I realize there is too much I don't know. I enjoyed Lovely People, in particular the part about Peter and forgiveness, because I have been there myself once. I was focused on that part, and even if the afterword may have been a bit harsh, it did not resonate with me as having any ill intent. But maybe I also need to take a good look at myself. It's not like my God needs me to defend him, anyway. Especially not against wounded people crying out in pain. Thank you, everyone sharing your experiences, for helping me see a little clearer.

I know you mean well, I can see it in your words. You wouldn't have typed what you typed if you didn't mean well.

But what you said here is exactly the kind of behavior that everyone is saying isn't helpful. The inability to see the world outside of their own personal experiences is a chronic problem in Christianity, and it's why I agree that you need to take a good look at yourself and what you say to others.

Bible quotes and parables are not comforting to people who do not believe in religion. They are not comforting to people who have been hurt by other bible quotes and parables. They are not comforting to people who follow entirely different religious texts. And when someone says a bible quote to a person who belongs to one of these groups, they're being short-sighted and not actually helpful.

For a comparison: one common way to deal with a breakup is for a close friend to bring over ice cream so that the two friends can feast on comfort food while the dumped person cries it out and the friend goes "there there, it's okay." But what if your friend is lactose intolerant? What if your friend is diabetic? What if your friend just plain doesn't like ice cream and prefers salty foods?

What you're doing here is the equivalent of bringing your diabetic friend a half-gallon of chocolate ice cream and saying "Go to town! This is what cheers me up." You have good intentions, but the circumstances of the situation make your helpful offer into something not helpful at all.

(And once again, this isn't a slight against you or your religion. I can tell you're trying to help. But I just thought a gentle explanation of why what you had to say isn't really that helpful at all may assist you in understanding the situation a bit better.)

[Miragia]

A very, very hard one.

Because you just repeated one of Minna's major errors.

Matthew 5:11-12 is not "don't worry about My people persecuting you, I still love you."

The ninth beatitude is addressed to the disciples. Not non-believers. It's almost certainly based on Isaiah 51:7, "Listen to me, you who know righteousness, you people who have my teaching in your hearts; do not fear the reproach of others, and do not be dismayed when they revile you."

Both are statements essentially saying, "you're going to be persecuted for believing in Me. Even by some who claim to speak in My name. But you know My truth and I love you more than them".

I get you almost certainly mean well, but quoting the bible, especially passages that are in context, defensive of the faithful, at people who have been harmed by this is so incredibly insensitive.

PyroDesu, you are right, it is addressed to the disciples. But does that necessarily mean it applies only to them? They were the ones who were there to listen, but persecuting non-believers in the name of Christ is just as wrong as persecuting believers in his name. Simple as that. I can only speak from my own faith, and I do believe that God loves non-believers too. If he did not, how could Christianity even exist as more than the tiny Jewish sect it started out as? I won't ask you or anyone to agree with me; I am well aware that I am a bit of an extremist when it comes to forgiveness. I'll go so far as to say that I believe that God loves even serpents and fallen angels. I'm not under any delusion that I'm better than a serpent myself, so why should I think that God loves non-believers less than me? Sorry for being insensitive, nonetheless. I certainly did not mean to be, but I am still inexperienced in these matters. So again, I'm sorry.

...Curious that I somehow got you to preach how I should interpret the Bible, though. I get that you feel insulted, but assuming that I don't know my own faith is a little rude, too. Not hard to forgive, but just saying. I don't agree with your interpretation, and you don't have to agree with mine, but Christian or non-believer, life becomes easier for everyone if you don't assume the worst of others. But you were trying, too, so thank you.

I know you mean well, I can see it in your words. You wouldn't have typed what you typed if you didn't mean well.

But what you said here is exactly the kind of behavior that everyone is saying isn't helpful. The inability to see the world outside of their own personal experiences is a chronic problem in Christianity, and it's why I agree that you need to take a good look at yourself and what you say to others.

Bible quotes and parables are not comforting to people who do not believe in religion. They are not comforting to people who have been hurt by other bible quotes and parables. They are not comforting to people who follow entirely different religious texts. And when someone says a bible quote to a person who belongs to one of these groups, they're being short-sighted and not actually helpful.

For a comparison: one common way to deal with a breakup is for a close friend to bring over ice cream so that the two friends can feast on comfort food while the dumped person cries it out and the friend goes "there there, it's okay." But what if your friend is lactose intolerant? What if your friend is diabetic? What if your friend just plain doesn't like ice cream and prefers salty foods?

What you're doing here is the equivalent of bringing your diabetic friend a half-gallon of chocolate ice cream and saying "Go to town! This is what cheers me up." You have good intentions, but the circumstances of the situation make your helpful offer into something not helpful at all.

(And once again, this isn't a slight against you or your religion. I can tell you're trying to help. But I just thought a gentle explanation of why what you had to say isn't really that helpful at all may assist you in understanding the situation a bit better.)

And to Maple, thank you. That is a helpful way to explain it, and now I have learned that there are those who are insulted even by Bible quotes intended to help. However, let me also inform you that I do have a friend who had very bad experiences with Christianity and left it because of that, but still enjoys reading the Bible with me. Usually she's even the one asking me to read it with her, although she remains a non-believer. That is the personal experience I based what I said on. Still, I am sorry that I wasn't helpful this time.

[pinkysaxton]

I think a lot of what the complaints against Minna's response to our response boils down to an empathy gap. You shouldn't have to go through an experience (or have a friend respond in the exact same way) to be able to anticipate that something said may not go over well.
For example, I've never taken offense at the black-and-white, "This is THE WAY. You'll burn in a fiery lake if you disagree." Maybe it's the normalization from my Methodist/Lutheran upbringing, but that sort of dichotomy of religion still makes sense to me. That being said, it definitely didn't surprise me that others were very upset by it. I didn't have that reaction myself, but can see how it's justified. Even if they didn't grow up with that trauma, it's a normal response. It's not that I'm so super smart and enlightened and can see past the nasty feelings. It's merely that words affect people in different ways. Many of those ways are correct, even as they're opposites.
And I think what's been said is that comfort is the same way. Even if you didn't anticipate the negative response to a comfort you chose, an empathetic response is not one that sounds defensive, or an apology that sounds hollow (again – whether you meant it to be so or not), or an explanation that someone else finds it comforting. I think the ice cream analogy explained that well. You don't tell your friend, "Well my other friend likes ice cream when she gets dumped." You show compassion, because the assumption is that's where you were coming from in the first place. You asked for understanding, then attempted to correct those who offered it to you. If those comments weren't right, then what's there to even understand? It sounds as if you wanted a new perspective, but didn't like it when it came along. What perspective would you be comfortable accepting with grace?

And really what we expect from Minna – from artists in general, given their line of work – is a healthy dose of empathy. This isn't the first time she's approached an offended audience with a closed heart and mind. And while she's promised not to change SSSS, we've seen that the quality already has. And that, based on her past remarks, maybe it should. Because, "The wrong people are complaining about what I did" isn't something we want to hear again. But she's made it clear this will be her habit.

[tzelly]

And to Maple, thank you. That is a helpful way to explain it, and now I have learned that there are those who are insulted even by Bible quotes intended to help. However, let me also inform you that I do have a friend who had very bad experiences with Christianity and left it because of that, but still enjoys reading the Bible with me. Usually she's even the one asking me to read it with her, although she remains a non-believer. That is the personal experience I based what I said on. Still, I am sorry that I wasn't helpful this time.

Your own personal experience, or that of a friend of yours, dont mean anything to the experience of others. Just because she is ok with bible quotes or stories, dosnt mean others would be ok with it. Part of the issue, for me at least, is the lack of consent. When I read that comic, I didnt consent to religious idealism. If I wanted to read something like that, I would look for it on my own. I didnt need it to pop up unexpected when my defense was down. Not from an artist and author that is known to cover pagan mythology and stories. Your friend has asked you to read and talk about the bible. We did not.