Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'

[tzelly]

I at least am no longer interested in anything Minna has to say about a social credit system. I might be interested in what someone else has to say about it, sure; but it's clear to me that anything she has to say is going to be seen through a distorted lens, so I'm going to discount it.

Any point she might have had is lost, with the bad writing that only got worse in the later part of the comic, makes her point completely buried under bible quotes. I didn't even know the social credit system was even a thing, and was very interested to learn more. So its a real missed/batched opportunity and her attitude of "haters gata hate" with silencing the comments on her main comic shows how little respect she has for her audience now.

[Songbird]

But I'm seeing enough people who have been deeply hurt by the handling of this incident that I wanted to let you guys know how this looks through a professional lens.  This isn't an issue of freedom of expression, religion or censuring.  This is a breach of professional behavior.

There are way too many things I dislike about it and this one of them. She misused our trust in her as an author here. The choice to keep the exact nature of the comic under wraps even after learning it distressed so many is a deliberate one; Misleading your audience about the themes contained in a work is a big no-no in writing as well.

Like it or not when you tell a story you're building a relationship with your audience. It doesn't need to be close, all you need is trust. That's the foundation of it, so to toss it away on purpose is... uh...

[Maple]

There are way too many things I dislike about it and this one of them. She misused our trust in her as an author here. The choice to keep the exact nature of the comic under wraps even after learning it distressed so many is a deliberate one; Misleading your audience about the themes contained in a work is a big no-no in writing as well.

Like it or not when you tell a story you're building a relationship with your audience. It doesn't need to be close, all you need is trust. That's the foundation of it, so to toss it away on purpose is... uh...

The part that's most upsetting is that Minna is likely going to take any criticism she gets as "Oh they're against Christianity, I don't have to listen to them" and ignore any honest, helpful crit she gets.

I really think the majority of people here would not be upset at the thought of a Christian bunny comic, provided that it is 1: well-written and thoughtful, like the rest of her work, and 2: clearly labeled as being a Christian bunny comic. Most of the crit she has gotten has been on one of those two points. But she seems hell bent on not admitting she made any mistakes and instead othering those who criticize her work, regardless of their intentions.

And I really think she will feel that hurt in the future, with whatever project she has next. Because like you said, she burned everyone's good faith in her, and I expect them to leave once SSSS is over (like I plan on doing, I won't be reading whatever else she makes after SSSS).

[Tarnagh]

The part that's most upsetting is that Minna is likely going to take any criticism she gets as "Oh they're against Christianity, I don't have to listen to them" and ignore any honest, helpful crit she gets.

I really think the majority of people here would not be upset at the thought of a Christian bunny comic, provided that it is 1: well-written and thoughtful, like the rest of her work, and 2: clearly labeled as being a Christian bunny comic. Most of the crit she has gotten has been on one of those two points. But she seems hell bent on not admitting she made any mistakes and instead othering those who criticize her work, regardless of their intentions.

And I really think she will feel that hurt in the future, with whatever project she has next. Because like you said, she burned everyone's good faith in her, and I expect them to leave once SSSS is over (like I plan on doing, I won't be reading whatever else she makes after SSSS).

Exactly this. I've already said that this upset we're experiencing is being completely ignored by her, witnessed by her comment about how "un-hurt" SHE feels by our criticism while completely ignoring the hurt she's caused others, choosing to interpret it as "anger" rather than honestly looking at the real reasons this is legitimately hurtful to quite a few members of her audience.

I've also already noticed that there are an interesting number of new commenters on page 409 that are fully supporting the new direction of her work, and I have commented already (but I think it bears repeating) that those people are her new target audience and they'll be more than happy to reinforce her decision to leave her past, "sinful" works (and the fanbase that went with them) behind in favor of these new followers like themselves. And the irony of that will be completely lost on all of them.

[pinkysaxton]

… those people are her new target audience and they'll be more than happy to reinforce her decision to leave her past, "sinful" works (and the fanbase that went with them) behind in favor of these new followers like themselves. And the irony of that will be completely lost on all of them.

This has been alluded to before (at least as a possible, "Look at the irony of this comic I wrote!") but do those who leave the fandom and her comments section do so as the protagonists of her comic? We see the lack of critical thinking and compassion, and the black-and-white all-or-nothing cognitive distortion she's promoting. She's already flippantly told people to come to the forum (which, to be honest, is what brought me here). Are we the bunnies leaving to look for something else? Instead of leaving Society for Freedom, are we choosing to remove ourselves (either before or after SSSS completes) from an outlet of superiority and intolerance? She clearly doesn't care if we go – just as her World Council let the bunnies walk away. I don't believe that she is using some sort of experiment to promote the irony of a rushed comic. But all she's done is placed herself in the spot of World Council, then berated us for not seeing things another way. You can't set up a dichotomy like that, then badger people for being wrong. But it sounds like the idea that she might lure us with honey is against her beliefs. At that point I have to wonder, was the intention to send us away? Only those 'strong' enough to accept blunt judgement and impressionistic comments will stick around her New Comic Order in the comments.

I guess this sounds really melodramatic now, but seriously – where do we go from here?

[Tarnagh]

This has been alluded to before (at least as a possible, "Look at the irony of this comic I wrote!") but do those who leave the fandom and her comments section do so as the protagonists of her comic? We see the lack of critical thinking and compassion, and the black-and-white all-or-nothing cognitive distortion she's promoting. She's already flippantly told people to come to the forum (which, to be honest, is what brought me here). Are we the bunnies leaving to look for something else? Instead of leaving Society for Freedom, are we choosing to remove ourselves (either before or after SSSS completes) from an outlet of superiority and intolerance? She clearly doesn't care if we go – just as her World Council let the bunnies walk away. I don't believe that she is using some sort of experiment to promote the irony of a rushed comic. But all she's done is placed herself in the spot of World Council, then berated us for not seeing things another way. You can't set up a dichotomy like that, then badger people for being wrong. But it sounds like the idea that she might lure us with honey is against her beliefs. At that point I have to wonder, was the intention to send us away? Only those 'strong' enough to accept blunt judgement and impressionistic comments will stick around her New Comic Order in the comments.

I guess this sounds really melodramatic now, but seriously – where do we go from here?

Maybe I'm indulging myself in some kind of Sunk Cost Fallacy, but I will stay to see SSSS to its end. Whatever that end may be.

I will, despite everything, give her new comic a try but I go into saying that with a HUGE caveat of "I don't expect much of it, and if it's anything like the bunny comic I'm out immediately."
I've been "witnessed" to enough in my life, thanks all the same.

I think it will be VERY interesting to see how the comments section on Disqus goes once they're reopened after the chapter break. I fully expect the new Jesus Minnions to completely take over our beloved Commentariat. I doubt I'll have much to say over there once the comments are open again. I'd love to be wrong on all that, though.

In the meantime, and going forward even after SSSS ends - all the cool people are HERE. And now, so are we. Having just started to get settled in to this place, I hope not to have to leave any time soon.

[Maple]

I think it will be VERY interesting to see how the comments section on Disqus goes once they're reopened after the chapter break. I fully expect the new Jesus Minnions to completely take over our beloved Commentariat. I doubt I'll have much to say over there once the comments are open again. I'd love to be wrong on all that, though.

What are they even going to say though? SSSS has always been pretty secular. Surely after the drama around the bunny comic dies down the new readers won't have much of a reason to stay around? (besides if they like SSSS for what it is now, which might happen, but I have my doubts about extremely religious/fundie people enjoying SSSS.)

[FreshTakoyaki]

Am I overly paranoid to assume that "Alizongle" is a conflation of Alibaba, Amazon, and Google, plus a pervasive bird avatar and "toots" to refer to Twitter, "Buuber" for Uber, etc.?
Which would suggest that "World Council" might not be chosen at random, either ...

You are not paranoid, just more perceptive than I was. It seems absurdly obvious now that you point it out.


The commentary really was disappointing, though. Especially coming from the Jewish tradition, where questioning everything and having your own opinion is fundamental to understanding. Even my Orthodox Rabbi freely admitted that most of his congregation were atheists or agnostics, and that believing without question or believing you alone understood god's truth and the path to god was narcissistic at best; how could any one person claim to understand that, or judge others for their interpretation or rejection?

There was a story he shared about a Hasidic Rabbi: A student asked why God would create atheists, and lead people to reject him. Did God not want all people to be in awe of him?

The Rabbi responded that atheists taught us about performing moral acts without promise of reward. They act with true compassion when they help others. When an atheist does charity, visits a sick person, and so on, they aren't doing so because of God or a moral commandment.  With no belief in God, all acts are based on an inner sense of morality. They do not pray for God to help others, they take the responsibility on their own shoulders.

Just a fun story, but the contrast with the idea and hubris that one person somehow has realized and understood that eternal plan of god and their way is the correct way and all the rest of humanity will burn in Hell for not following their version... I think Alizongle's the good guy in her bunny story, promoting a much healthier form of Christianity than the original misogynistic collection of bronze and iron-age mythological stories and books that the original version is. And the version promoted in the author's commentary is just downright scary. It also shows just how much of a persecution complex she has now, and attacking her or her faith would just make her retrench even further. Given how full of contradictions and logically inconsistent it is, with time and some actual study and thought, she should be in a much better place. I went to a Jesuit university (Georgetown), and as the priests there loved to say, the best way to make an atheist or agnostic out of a Christian is to force them to study the Bible and think about it.

Still, I'm glad she's still writing SSSS, and hopefully it won't be rushed or changed too much by her new perspective. Religious authors can write astoundingly good fantasy, and explore questions of faith and spirituality within them. If the bunny comic is indicative of the direction of her future direction, I'll definitely leave her to it, the fundamentalist Christian world is a large and loyal audience. Hopefully she'll eventually come to her senses, or if not, hopefully her faith will be a source of comfort and stability for her personally, and not a source of hatred and judgement for others.

[Pessi]

Oof.. I can see you mean well but I think people cut her too much slack for not being American. Race and other minority issues exist everywhere in the world. There are plenty of different ethnicities in Finland, some of them with a long history of being there, others shorter, but they visibly exist (I've visited there and I saw).

Based on actual research Finland is one of the most racist countries in the EU. We have a whole political party that seems to exist mainly to blame immigration and refugees for everything that is wrong in the society while also hankering after an imagined "good old times Finland" where everyone was white, straight and Christian and lived by very conservative ideals all through their lives - and this party has a very steady following of about 20 %. We also still haven't ratified ILO 169 which would give our Sámi minority at least basic rights as the indigenous people they are instead of having to live in constant fear for their traditional culture and livelihoods being wiped out. Our Róma minority has traditionally been shunned, and it's not going much better for those of our new minority groups that are visibly different than the old native population.

Minna, from what we have seen, should be smart enough to know better. People don't like to get pushed. Even if she wanted to pass that message (because she ultimately believes in it) she could have done it in a more subtle way. I can only see what she did as influenced by the enthusiasm with her new Faith

I've been wondering if it is all her own doing instead of influenced by her new religious group. After all some sects use "missionary work" as a way to deeper indoctrinate their own members. Especially new recruits are encouraged or even plainly ordered to do everything they can to convert all their friends and family members and everyone else they happen to meet. This is not done primarily to gain more converts since most people of course find it repulsive to be force-fed religion and refuse to even listen. This is done to give the new recruits the feeling that they are disliked, scorned, shunned and rejected for their new-found faith by almost everyone and the only people who love, understand, respect and support them are those within their own new religious circle. This is a very effective way to make people gradually cut most of their their non-religious social contacts and start living for their religious community alone.

[Dilandu]

Based on actual research Finland is one of the most racist countries in the EU. We have a whole political party that seems to exist mainly to blame immigration and refugees for everything that is wrong in the society while also hankering after an imagined "good old times Finland" where everyone was white, straight and Christian and lived by very conservative ideals all through their lives - and this party has a very steady following of about 20 %. We also still haven't ratified ILO 169 which would give our Sámi minority at least basic rights as the indigenous people they are instead of having to live in constant fear for their traditional culture and livelihoods being wiped out. Our Róma minority has traditionally been shunned, and it's not going much better for those of our new minority groups that are visibly different than the old native population.

Well, i dunno about modern Finland, but Finnish treatment of Soviet prisoners of war and civilians in continuation war was... exemplary BAD. Worse than Nazi, in many cases; much more casual sadism and brutality. And, while Germany was de-nazified after war , as well as many of its European allies (Romania, Hungary, ect.), Finland was not.

Of course, main reason was, that Finland managed to get out of the war rather lightly. Finland weren't occuped; its government and military weren't dismantled. While Stalin usually wasn't the men who let those who wronged him get away lightly, Finland managed to suggest something he could not refuse: to get rid of German troops in Finland themselves. Stalin, the greatest pragmatic, recognized the advantages of being able to immediately shift hundreds of thousands Soviet soldiers from Finnish to German front, and agreed to let Finland to be as it was (and not to press much about war crimes)

So Finland was not subjected to the same ideological cleansing after war as other Axis nations. The unpleasant pages of history were just ignored, pretended not to exist. Which probably contributed at least a bit to the situation you described.

[Sc0ut]

Based on actual research Finland is one of the most racist countries in the EU. We have a whole political party that seems to exist mainly to blame immigration and refugees for everything that is wrong in the society while also hankering after an imagined "good old times Finland" where everyone was white, straight and Christian and lived by very conservative ideals all through their lives - and this party has a very steady following of about 20 %. We also still haven't ratified ILO 169 which would give our Sámi minority at least basic rights as the indigenous people they are instead of having to live in constant fear for their traditional culture and livelihoods being wiped out. Our Róma minority has traditionally been shunned, and it's not going much better for those of our new minority groups that are visibly different than the old native population.

This is very similar to what is happening in my part of Eastern Europe actually (and all over Europe there's been a resurgence of far right groups that scapegoat minorities and foreigners for everything and peddle the same myth of the "golden age" when all people who lived there were uniform and everything was fine). My point isn't that everyone in Finland is not racist, but that if you open your eyes to the reality around you and choose to educate yourself, it is possible, despite counter ideas floating around in the culture. If it was possible for other Finns of ages similar to Minna's (and not to mention for Eastern Europeans like me whose formal education in this respect is frankly worse) it's possible for her as well.

And, while Germany was de-nazified after war , as well as many of its European allies (Romania, Hungary, ect.), Finland was not.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by de-nazified but I assure you that people who still push for similar ideas and policies definitely still exist in this part of Europe and have some of the population's support, unfortunately. But we're getting a little off topic and I personally would rather not extra emotionally hurtful content in a thread that hopefully provides people with a bit of relief.

[Pessi]

Well, i dunno about modern Finland, but Finnish treatment of Soviet prisoners of war and civilians in continuation war was... exemplary BAD.

Well, Finnish prisoners taken by the Soviets were not much better off, and Soviet partisan troops alone made 45 separate attacks into Finnish civilian settlements ravishing and murdering everyone they could get their hands on. War tends to bring out the ugliest sides of human nature.

And, while Germany was de-nazified after war , as well as many of its European allies (Romania, Hungary, ect.), Finland was not.

Though in reality allied with Nazi germany, Finland declared before the war, during it and after it that we had our own separate war with the Soviet Union and didn't have anything to do with the ambitious invasion plans of Germany. The "getting rid of Nazis" was not a piece of cake either: it boiled down into the War of Lappland in which the retreating German troops burned everything in their wake. The whole town of Rovaniemi for example was burned to the ground.

The unpleasant pages of history were just ignored, pretended not to exist.

For a long time, yes, partly because good relations with the Soviet Union were essential for Finland. Nowadays more and more actual research is being done and truths found out from behind the official legend of "a small but brave and purehearted nation fighting against an unholy, gigantic oppressor to save it's sacred independence" - which isn't totally false either though gravely exaggerated.


Sorry for the offtopic content, just felt I needed to clarify some things. I won't say anything else about Finnish warhistory or politics in this topic after this.

[Dilandu]

Sorry for the offtopic content, just felt I needed to clarify some things. I won't say anything else about Finnish warhistory or politics in this topic after this.

Agreed, lets stop the off-topic. Sorry for raising it at all; as amateur military historian I sometimes tend to drift here.

[thegreyarea]

...
The commentary really was disappointing, though. Especially coming from the Jewish tradition, where questioning everything and having your own opinion is fundamental to understanding. Even my Orthodox Rabbi freely admitted that most of his congregation were atheists or agnostics, and that believing without question or believing you alone understood god's truth and the path to god was narcissistic at best; how could any one person claim to understand that, or judge others for their interpretation or rejection?

There was a story he shared about a Hasidic Rabbi: A student asked why God would create atheists, and lead people to reject him. Did God not want all people to be in awe of him?

The Rabbi responded that atheists taught us about performing moral acts without promise of reward. They act with true compassion when they help others. When an atheist does charity, visits a sick person, and so on, they aren't doing so because of God or a moral commandment.  With no belief in God, all acts are based on an inner sense of morality. They do not pray for God to help others, they take the responsibility on their own shoulders.
...

Just wanted to say that I liked your comment very much, and also the story, that I also heard from a catholic priest once.

Based on actual research Finland is one of the most racist countries in the EU. We have a whole political party that seems to exist mainly to blame immigration and refugees for everything that is wrong in the society while also hankering after an imagined "good old times Finland" where everyone was white, straight and Christian and lived by very conservative ideals all through their lives - and this party has a very steady following of about 20 %. We also still haven't ratified ILO 169 which would give our Sámi minority at least basic rights as the indigenous people they are instead of having to live in constant fear for their traditional culture and livelihoods being wiped out. Our Róma minority has traditionally been shunned, and it's not going much better for those of our new minority groups that are visibly different than the old native population.

Actually I had no idea about that. We on the southern side of Europe tend to imagine Finland as an almost perfectly balanced society where the main problem is the lack of sunlight... So thanks for the info. I have to study that more in the future.

I've been wondering if it is all her own doing instead of influenced by her new religious group. After all some sects use "missionary work" as a way to deeper indoctrinate their own members. Especially new recruits are encouraged or even plainly ordered to do everything they can to convert all their friends and family members and everyone else they happen to meet. This is not done primarily to gain more converts since most people of course find it repulsive to be force-fed religion and refuse to even listen. This is done to give the new recruits the feeling that they are disliked, scorned, shunned and rejected for their new-found faith by almost everyone and the only people who love, understand, respect and support them are those within their own new religious circle. This is a very effective way to make people gradually cut most of their their non-religious social contacts and start living for their religious community alone.

This is an unpleasant possibility that sadly may very well be the truth in her case, while I hope not.

[Mirasol]

Something I realized just today:
There have been numerous requests by people feeling hurt by the "no faith but mine" part that Minna adds a trigger warning for that. (Which she still ignores, page 411 still announces "the mysterious bunny comic" with no more indication of Christian content than one protagonist being "a Christian homemaker".)
I don't remember seeing even one of the Christians who deplore the persecution of their faith in the comments ask for a trigger warning; after all, the comic also depicts such persecution, though not as its culmination point.
Wonder what that's trying to tell me ...

On the topic of trigger-warnings. I do think that one would be very appropriate for this story, reading here how many people were hurt by its message and/or facing things that caused them trauma with no warning. I hope Minna adds one eventually, though I kinda doubt it...

But I would suggest implementing a warning on the first post in this thread too, in case someone stumbles across the bunny-comic on the forum first before the SSSS-website. Then at least we could avoid such situations coming from here.