Author Topic: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'  (Read 108393 times)

Lueley

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #195 on: March 24, 2021, 10:29:50 AM »
I don't know. I thought the comic was fine. Yeah it was a bit blunt and ham-handed, it reminded me a lot of veggietales in that way, but I didn't pick up on any malicious intent. It just appeared to me how she described it: a personal project to explore some of her own feelings- one that isn't really relevant to her other works like SSSS.
Was it a great story? No. Did it offend me? Also no.

As for the author's notes- I didn't get the impression she was being hateful. I've experienced hate-rambles from Christians first hand, and it's not really like that. She just seems very wrapped up in her new faith. The pandemic has driven us all to spend a lot of time in our own heads, thinking and sometimes overthinking. She's committed wholeheartedly to her newfound religion, and I can't blame her. Whether she eases up as her priorities rebalance, or goes fundie, I don't think any of us can tell.
I don't think it poses a risk to SSSS, she's generally a good writer (she does make her mistakes, but every artist does) and I don't think she'd change the storyline to fit her new religion. So it just seems best to leave her to it, since Lovely People was a one off and I don't think she's going to be making any conversion attempts. We've known for a long time that Minna's political views aren't really in line with the general fandom's. I hope I'm not being naive.

I'm really not shocked by her apparent anti-tech/anti-consumerist/primitivist tendencies. They say the artist can always be found reflected in their art, and we're talking about a woman who's spent nearly a decade writing a post-apocalyptic most-tech-has-been-destroyed "the vikings are back" webcomic. And there's nothing wrong with that. (How this makes the bunny comic anti-China I don't really understand).

What this means for Emil/Lalli fans like myself, well... I made my peace a long time ago that it probably wouldn't be made canon, and it doesn't have to be for us to keep enjoying it.

Anyway that's just my take.
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blabo

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #196 on: March 24, 2021, 11:10:28 AM »
I feel bad to have joined a community just to vent, so forgive me for adding my 2¢ here.

To me the infuriating part of this whole debacle was not the "sinner" thing in the afterword, nor the fierce proselytism.

I'm willing to forgive even the most heavily loaded sentences as, say, clumsy use of English as a bridge language (I'm certainly in no position to cast any stone, but it clearly does not read as an essay written by a native speaker). While the message in itself is very clear, I can very well give the benefit of the doubt on the wording. For example, the very controversial line <<your problem is...>> (mentioned here just a few posts ago) was possibly intended in the sentence as
"if you feel like you're lacking purpose in life, turn to God"
rather than
"I know for certain that you DO have a problem".

Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe BOTH. Quantum physics.

To comment another point that came up in these pages and on disqus: honestly I can't completely relate to the apprehension towards Minna's conversion, her professed (and allegedly toxic?) self-loathing, and such. I think that most of us don't know Minna personally, we don't know which kind of person she is other than what she shares with us (what if she's *gasp* really evil? :P ), and I don't find it so fundamentally wrong to take a U-turn at some point in your life, take notice of the flaws in your behaviour and try and do better. And yes, if you do that in accordance with some religion, then the concepts of "flaw" and "sin" might overlap.
But more importantly- I don't... care that much?
I hope it's not impolite to say!
My appreciation of her work and her dedication has very little to do with my appreciation of her as a person (I don't know her!), or my interest in what she feels, other than the basic human empathy: it's good to know she's doing fine, it's sad to know she's not. Everything else (she sounds like she got caught up in ... / her words reveal that ... / I hope her family does ...) feels to me like an intrusion on something that is really, really not my business, and the fact that Minna made something public about herself does not grant me permission to speculate on this or other aspects of her private life.
Maybe this is a cultural thing.

This feeling is reciprocated in that Minna basically told us "feel free to go somewhere else to complain": how we feel is not her business and, as shocking as it can be, she's not there to please her fans. (A commendable philosophy for an artist imho)

In this sense, I don't need to identify with her, or even take interest in her system of beliefs in general, in order to enjoy her work.

A "Christian" story, published just in time for Easter, starring the most literal Easter bunnies you'll ever find, telling about the Passion of Jesus, the Denial of Peter and his Repentance, with a technocratic sauce on top...
... all of this is something I would personally not choose to read, but could enjoy for what it is. (After all, the art is stunning.)

I do understand that some people might feel betrayed about the sudden revelation in the afterword. Now the seal is broken, and we know that Minna - to a certain extent, at least - adheres to a system of values that systematically contributes to the oppression of minorities. Hence I understand the "I can't believe Minna hates me" reactions, although I must say that I personally find them a bit excessive (albeit legitimate): I think it's a mistake, in general, to assume that the creators of content we appreciate also share our same values, and if this issue is so central to me and the way I enjoy works of art, then *I* should do the homework in advance and do the relevant vetting on the artist. Of course I don't mean to dismiss people's trauma; I just think that one shouldn't unilaterally declare a place as a safe space, without knowing it is, and with little to do to make it as such (I'm explicitly setting apart the fan community from the artist here: we can be in control of what we write and how we interact with our peers, but we are not the ink in Minna's pen).

On the covid19-passport thing I really think we need to sort the wheat from the chaff; I actually believe that Minna touches a very interesting point when she states that people are collectively willing to tolerate more when in fear or in a time of emergency. This conversation does not intrinsically belong to conspiracy theorists and their environments; for example, as workers [European PoV here] we should not be forced to hear sentences like "what do you complain about?! you're lucky to even have a job during these times!" if we call out our employers on their shortcomings, infringements, mistreatment or exploitation (mind: I've heard these things being said). And when it comes to travelling [also: European PoV here; at some point in recent history we collectively decided that internal borders were not as much of a thing here as elsewhere], I could definitely agree with the point made e.g. in this article (which unfortunately now seems to be placed behind a paywall! But maybe it's just because I've exceeded the maximum number of free articles) commenting on Norway's policy of shutting its borders close to an unprecedented extent, which people this affects the most, and how this creates a dangerous precedent for right-wing parties and how the local population basically did not bat an eye.

Of course, this has nothing to do with Christians being denied freedom of speech.

So, all the above is stuff that I'd put in my personal "it's not my thing" box.
If you found a religion, that's (of course!) fine by me. Whatever floats your boat.
If you want to enthusiastically talk about the good thing that you found in it, be my guest!
If you want to turn a blind eye to the past and very much present wrongdoings perpetrated under the banner of Christianity against minority groups and individuals... that's also ok-ish maybe? I'd argue you're not the first person who chooses to live in this way their own belonging to a Church or a religion.

That being said--

To me the disconcerting part was really the persecution complex emerging from both the comic and the afterword (<<and nobody is allowed to say or write anything "harmful" anymore>>), and the bit about Bible 2.0, the mockery about political correctness, gender-neutral language, <<And that's valid, sis!>>, and such, which felt really like a slap in the face.

And this was a premeditated slap. Because Minna had been going on about this side-project for months, and had never once mentioned what it was about. So it is clear that she intended to shock us. This makes me a bit unsympathetic towards those users on disqus who've been sending messages of "support" after the backlash, as to me it is evident that she knew very well what she was doing. And indeed, in a profoundly honest way, that's what she tells us:
Quote
for those of you who were worried that I'm upset or hurt by any things that have been said: don't be! I can't be upset, [...] So don't worry. I'm even surprised how non-hurt I feel, [...]

From a very personal perspective I need to report that I'm not welcome in the community I grew up in - a countryside village where one's social life completely revolves around the Default Religion - because I'm married to a person of the "wrong" gender. So while the "it's ok you're just a sinner" rethoric is something I can laugh about (and I'm sure not everybody can), the idea that, Anno 2021, Christians sit at the persecuted side of the table and they live under the looming threat of being violently silenced by the knights of political correctness is... well... just wrong, in any possible way. It might not hurt, but it does really feel like an insult. We didn't need this.

But I also see how confusing this outrage might look to some of those who profess themselves Christians. The sad truth is that Christianity often says A but it either lets itself be weaponized by people who say B, or hide under a broader, edulcorated, more digestible meaning of A while hiding its more violent traits. I couldn't possibly count the times I heard about tolerance in church as a child-- which is ironic considering how it all ended for me.

At any rate, the massive divergence between opinions feels somehow like the most natural resolution of a story which presents a very blunt dichotomy "us good, incorruptible, persecuted, real, lovely" vs. "them bad, dishonest, malevolent, fake, unpleasant". The discriminating factor is dictated by religious dogma? Can't expect any less than fireworks.

At the same time I wonder whether the reactions would have been just as polarized, and whether all these (Christian) people on disqus saying stuff like "it's not a personal attack, why do you feel attacked" would have thought otherwise, had Minna disclosed that she converted to a religion that is less practiced in the countries where she's most read - say, Islam.
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Dilandu

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #197 on: March 24, 2021, 12:21:35 PM »
To put it simply, it didn’t.

A lot of people either left or drastically scaled back involvement in the fandom, including some of the most prolific fanwork creators. There were so many bad feelings all around, and both the level of fandom activity and the overall vibe were not the same after that.

This latest thing with the bunny comic is part of a long downward slide - the fact that it happened is not surprising, only the exact flavour of it.

Fortunately, I came long after the Emil crisis...

Maglor

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #198 on: March 24, 2021, 12:25:15 PM »
What's the Emil crisis?
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Dalahästen

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #199 on: March 24, 2021, 12:26:41 PM »
As someone who has been reading Minna's work for nearly 10 years (and hasn't posted in over 6)... Yikes.

As many, I am usually a "silent reader". I know Minna technically owes us nothing, but can't help to join the bandwagon of people who are worried her current work in SSSS has a ton of content that orthodox religious people would view as herectic. I have seen artists completely wipe their work off public domain after being advised by a priest or pastor that their work was deemed "wrong" in the eyes of the faith -- such as the game Memohuntress, which was a masterpiece in both visuals and soundtrack and that no longer exists by legal means due to the conversion of its creator.

A pity. I still treasure my signed physical copies but... will I be partaking in future crowdfundings? That will greatly depend on how she deals with this backlash.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2021, 01:44:11 PM by Dalahästen »
:book1+::chap6::chap7::chap8::chap9::chap10:

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houstinhobby

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #200 on: March 24, 2021, 01:16:00 PM »
I loved this comic.

I'm a long term reader of the comic and supporter via the kickstarters. I love Minna's style of work and I love post apocalyptic everything.

This comic was ridiculously in tune with what is happening in China right now with the rollout of their social credit system. It was wonderful to see someone in the West notice what is happening there and create so passionately about it.

Thank you Minna. This was amazing.

Dilandu

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #201 on: March 24, 2021, 01:21:40 PM »
What's the Emil crisis?

If I understood correctly (it was long before I started to read SSSS), it was related to page 549 of the first adventure:



In the initial version, Emil used not the "kung fu", but a word, which apparently is derogatory slur toward Asians (I do not know for sure, since such slang obviously is not used in Russia). A lot of peoples took offense, to which Minna apparently reacted badly, and many minnions left the fandom. In the end, the phrase was replaced with "kung fu".


*edited by mod-Gwenno to remove slur in question (it's quite an unpleasant one, and I don't want our Asian Minnions to stumble upon it without expecting)
« Last Edit: March 24, 2021, 01:42:05 PM by Gwenno »

Rowan

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #202 on: March 24, 2021, 01:56:00 PM »
After reading Lovely People I was left with some questions.

* Minna identifies as Christian, but doesn't provide the sect. Considering there's absolutely no universality between sects, this is really confusing. Where I'm from, 'Christian' ranges from people in denim robes feeding the homeless, to people who handle venomous snakes while speaking glossolalia. It's really disingenuous to just say 'Christian', Are you christian in the same way that the people who believe owning slaves remains god's will are christian? Are you christian in the way that people who believe in having sex with your clergy are christian? Are you christian in the same way that people who belive that the core theology of their religion changes from issue to issue of their magazine are christian? The lack of definition is -really- confusing.

* The bunnies read the bible and are unsettled when it's shifted to version 2.0. Which version were the bunnies reading? That text has as many variations as there are sects. Which books are included in the bunny bible? How many versions were there before? What changed?

* What is the point of reading the bible? Why is it important to any of them? How does it inform their behavior or actions? I'm not seeing a connection between the reading and the importance.

* The bible passages refereced in Lovely People seem to only work if you're heavily invested in the faith already. Trying to present christianity with shibboleths doesn't seem like it's very useful to present an apologetic. Lovely people, for its condemnation of society, seems dependent on society already having a more than working knowledge of the faith. Much like a Jack Chick tract, the target audience seems less outsiders, than crafting a 'no true scotsman' fallacy for anyone other than Minna who might present as chrisitian.

* Why do the bunnies flee the society? Where do they go? The only reason that Christianity permeated europe wasn't the exiles, but the incorporation of Christianity into the Roman middle class, and its spread across the empire. It looks like the Christian bunnies seem to have no obligation to help the 'un-people' or those suffering from the system. This seems to refute so much of Gospel and post-gospel writing. How is this reconciled? Even at their most 'holy', these bunnies are only concerned for themselves, and their immediate families. So, going back to my initial point....What sect believes this? And why isn't that sect addressed and examined?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2021, 01:58:09 PM by Rowan »
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Dilandu

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #203 on: March 24, 2021, 02:47:05 PM »


* Why do the bunnies flee the society? Where do they go? The only reason that Christianity permeated europe wasn't the exiles, but the incorporation of Christianity into the Roman middle class, and its spread across the empire. It looks like the Christian bunnies seem to have no obligation to help the 'un-people' or those suffering from the system. This seems to refute so much of Gospel and post-gospel writing. How is this reconciled? Even at their most 'holy', these bunnies are only concerned for themselves, and their immediate families. So, going back to my initial point....What sect believes this? And why isn't that sect addressed and examined?

Well, the sinister idea would be to have the World Council to covertly establish some sort of "hidden village" to where the dissidents fled. Supporting a small number of dissidents is not actually a noticeable strain on the productive consumerist society; on the other hands, non-conformists are self-excluded from society and would not attempt to do something more dangerous (like staging a revolution or organizing a terrorist underground).

Sc0ut

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #204 on: March 24, 2021, 02:53:34 PM »
* What is the point of reading the bible? Why is it important to any of them? How does it inform their behavior or actions? I'm not seeing a connection between the reading and the importance.

This is a really good comment imo. As someone born into the Christian Orthodox faith (now an atheist), what struck me both about the comic and about Minna's message was how her flavour of Christianity doesn't seem to put any emphasis whatsoever on good behaviour, however they might choose to define it. In fact, for certain readings of her afterword, it seems that she/they might even see the attempt to treat people better as vain and futile "self-improvement" (which she very clearly states she looks down upon). So her faith allows her to a) not feel bad about any flaws she identifies in her, since everyone else is "sinful" anyway b) not feel the need to improve on them because the only act that really matters is accepting god's forgiveness, and she's done that already c) still feel superior to a vast majority of people purely due to her being a "true believer", unlike them, without lifting a finger or changing much of her lifestyle really and d) allow her to feel oppressed, if she so chooses, by the fact that society doesn't follow the same moral code. I may be wrong about all this and/or she may change her approach as she refines her thoughts about her faith, but this is where I feel she is right now (and the invulnerability to criticism she claims on her formal announcement for the bunny comic supports this). It looks like she adopted all of the worse things from Christianity without retaining almost any good ones. I can't say I have as much experience with fundamentalist groups like other people who have commented, but even so it's obvious to me that this is a mindset that allows people to harm others or just generally be terrible in the name of their religion. I am.... put off to say the least.

Rowan

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #205 on: March 24, 2021, 03:04:24 PM »
Well, the sinister idea would be to have the World Council to covertly establish some sort of "hidden village" to where the dissidents fled. Supporting a small number of dissidents is not actually a noticeable strain on the productive consumerist society; on the other hands, non-conformists are self-excluded from society and would not attempt to do something more dangerous (like staging a revolution or organizing a terrorist underground).

That's a thought. Especially since again it ensures that the dissident bunnies don't actually -help- anyone. If this theology is consistent, it's not unlike the social app. Since the christian bunnies don't get any 'points' for providing aid, they choose not to do it. Because the last thing Christ would ever do is help the least of mankind. Again, I'm -dying- to find out which sect this is, which sect it split from, which bible is the 'acceptable' version, which books are in the acceptable version, and if it's hebrew/greek to finnish, latin to finnish, english to finnish, or some other game of linguistic telephone.

All I know so far is:
- The sect believes in the same ZOG conspiracy theory that's gone on since the 1700's
- The sect has a vaguely lutheran bent
- The sect uses 'Christian' and 'Bible' as terms that require no further explanation
- The sect is a -huge- believer in the 'no true scotsman' fallacy.
- The sect believes only in testimoy as a christian identifier rather than action, which at the very least shows which chapters and books of the Bible they choose to ignore.
- The sect believes isolation is preferrable to care, compassion, and change.

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Rowan

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #206 on: March 24, 2021, 03:10:43 PM »
This is a really good comment imo. As someone born into the Christian Orthodox faith (now an atheist), what struck me both about the comic and about Minna's message was how her flavour of Christianity doesn't seem to put any emphasis whatsoever on good behaviour, however they might choose to define it.

None of James' writings seem to be part of the sect's bible.

Quote
In fact, for certain readings of her afterword, it seems that she/they might even see the attempt to treat people better as vain and futile "self-improvement" (which she very clearly states she looks down upon).

Testimony only. Faith and love are not dynamic. You have to declare your faith, find means to use media to project your testimony, but acting with love and care is vanity.

Quote
I am.... put off to say the least.

But the bunnies are -soooooo- cute!
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Dilandu

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #207 on: March 24, 2021, 03:27:54 PM »
That's a thought. Especially since again it ensures that the dissident bunnies don't actually -help- anyone. If this theology is consistent, it's not unlike the social app. Since the christian bunnies don't get any 'points' for providing aid, they choose not to do it. Because the last thing Christ would ever do is help the least of mankind. Again, I'm -dying- to find out which sect this is, which sect it split from, which bible is the 'acceptable' version, which books are in the acceptable version, and if it's hebrew/greek to finnish, latin to finnish, english to finnish, or some other game of linguistic telephone.

All I know so far is:
- The sect believes in the same ZOG conspiracy theory that's gone on since the 1700's
- The sect has a vaguely lutheran bent
- The sect uses 'Christian' and 'Bible' as terms that require no further explanation
- The sect is a -huge- believer in the 'no true scotsman' fallacy.
- The sect believes only in testimoy as a christian identifier rather than action, which at the very least shows which chapters and books of the Bible they choose to ignore.
- The sect believes isolation is preferrable to care, compassion, and change.

Yep. And allowing them to self-remove from society, State essentially get rid of potentially dangerous dissidents (who otherwise may start to make bombs & Molotov cocktails), without the need to resort to outright repressions. Imprisoning dissidents, exiling them, or just killing always cause uneasiness in society. But if dissidents are essentially exiling themselves, without any outright repressive actions from the government? Essentially they would just brand themselves as bunch of self-centered weirdos, who cared only about their "righteousness".

So yes, it's a very efficient way to vent out dissent. All the State essentially need, is to anonymously provide dissidents with small amount of vital supplies, so they would not attempt to go back.

Dilandu

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #208 on: March 24, 2021, 03:29:58 PM »
This is a really good comment imo. As someone born into the Christian Orthodox faith (now an atheist), what struck me both about the comic and about Minna's message was how her flavour of Christianity doesn't seem to put any emphasis whatsoever on good behaviour, however they might choose to define it. In fact, for certain readings of her afterword, it seems that she/they might even see the attempt to treat people better as vain and futile "self-improvement" (which she very clearly states she looks down upon). So her faith allows her to a) not feel bad about any flaws she identifies in her, since everyone else is "sinful" anyway b) not feel the need to improve on them because the only act that really matters is accepting god's forgiveness, and she's done that already c) still feel superior to a vast majority of people purely due to her being a "true believer", unlike them, without lifting a finger or changing much of her lifestyle really and d) allow her to feel oppressed, if she so chooses, by the fact that society doesn't follow the same moral code. I may be wrong about all this and/or she may change her approach as she refines her thoughts about her faith, but this is where I feel she is right now (and the invulnerability to criticism she claims on her formal announcement for the bunny comic supports this). It looks like she adopted all of the worse things from Christianity without retaining almost any good ones. I can't say I have as much experience with fundamentalist groups like other people who have commented, but even so it's obvious to me that this is a mindset that allows people to harm others or just generally be terrible in the name of their religion. I am.... put off to say the least.

Quite... accurate analysis, I must say. Which made it especially worrisome...

Sc0ut

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #209 on: March 24, 2021, 03:30:34 PM »
But the bunnies are -soooooo- cute!

Yes gotta love how the pretty art and semi-famous author force people to pay attention to, and say nice things about, a pamphlet that they wouldn't give the time of day otherwise.