Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'

[Vulpes]

I think one aspect of this that is discomforting is her reach. A friend of mine is rabidly anti-religion, particularly Islam, and also thinks that affirmative action policies favour female candidates over better qualified male ones. I've been on academic hiring committees, and that definitely didn't happen. Other than those truly distasteful opinions, he's a smart, funny guy, so after a few totally futile attempts to make him see reason, I simply avoid those topics. However, I am really concerned that he manages to find ways to insert them into his teaching - he's a contract geology instructor. If he spouts his nasty views to his friends, we change the subject or tell him he's full of sh*t. If he spouts them to first year university students... well, that's a different story.

If you have a public platform, yes you can say what you want, but you should also consider the consequences. I teach evolution sometimes, and I make a point to acknowledge religious beliefs and explain how they are outside the scope of the scientific method. I fear that my friend would say that those beliefs are stupid and wrong and only Darwin got it right - which is basically Fundamentalist Darwinism and just as bad as any other rigid belief system. Lest anyone say this is self-censorship, beyond the initial acknowledgement of beliefs I simply cover evolution the way I want to, with wonder and enthusiasm.

It does no good to attack people's beliefs, they just get their backs up - as demonstrated by this discussion! If I felt that her message was, "Christianity can help you through difficult times, it has helped me," or somesuch, fine. But the message that I got was that anyone who doesn't believe that Jesus will save them is doomed, and that includes YOU - imagine an accusatory finger poking out the screen. And as I mentioned before, it feels very much like a bait-and-switch; this much-anticipated feel-good cute bunny comic has just pounded me over the head with a bible. So I'm startled and offended, just as I would be if I went into the local grocery store and the manager suddenly came over and gave me a hellfire and brimstone sermon.

Enough rambling on from me - thanks everyone for the very civil and thoughtful discussion.

[thorny]

Let me try putting it this way, for those having trouble understanding the problem:

Suppose that Minna had done almost the same comic, but instead of choosing the passage about Jesus being the only way as the one to stress, had chosen something else -- maybe the bit about (paraphrasing) 'if you saw even the least of these hungry, and didn't feed them, that's the same as doing that to God'? She'd already made quite a deal in the comic of people who lost points not being able to get food, and of others being supposed to stay away from them and let them starve. That section would have fit nicely.

And suppose that at the end, instead of what she did say about (paraphrasing again, but it's really the only way I can read it) 'I'm safe now but if the rest of you have any problems it's your own fault for not believing that Jesus is God! and that's the only possible thing anyone can do to fix it!'; if instead of that she'd said something like 'I've been really distressed for quite a while, and then I became a Christian, and now I feel so much better and also I feel like I'm a much better person. Try letting Jesus into your heart, that can do the same for you!'

-- I'd have no problem at all with the second version. (I would if she kept following me down the street bugging me about it, but not for saying it in her own comic.) Do you see the difference?

-- I had another thought when writing that, and went back and looked at what Minna said at the end of the strip. And she doesn't say a word about having become a better person -- more compassionate, more merciful, or anything of the sort -- in fact, she says that doing good is useless, no amount of doing good could make her righteous. And she doesn't say she feels called upon to do good anyway. She seems only interested in the fact that she thinks her religion will make her, personally, spiritually safe.


JoB, I'm entirely aware that it's a common Christian belief that believing that Jesus of Nazareth is God is the only way to rid oneself of some sort of original sin; though I don't think even all Christians believe in original sin, or that nobody of other religions or none could possibly be righteous. But there's a whole lot of stuff in the Bible, much of it contradictory (including in the specifically Christian testaments), and not all Christians emphasize, or even follow, the same things -- let alone feel called upon to lecture the rest of us about it.

[Annuil]

Alright, this is turning into a debate of some sort... I don’t want to offend anybody but I must add my opinion to the pile of other opinions. I agree with moredhel about Minna drawing this comic just to explain that she found a religion she likes, how she feels about it and that she is not making anyone believe what she believes.
I am a Christian and I indeed liked her idea, I liked that she so fearlessly decided to share it. I am pretty sure she knew what she was doing and that people may not like it.
It really may seem a little hard for non-Christians. Yes, there is no other way, believe in God or play for the Council like a marionette. Yes she says WE all are sinners, she says it for those who share her beliefs, because they will understand. By the time you get to that part of the comic you should have realized that it’s a story about Christianity. If you do not agree with what Christians believe or if you consider yourself of a different religion, than why does it even bother you? Why do you pay so much attention to things that you think aren’t true? It should not be the case if you are so sure of your own belief, you will just ignore it, because that’s not about you, it’s about people of that other religion.
Minna is not pushing her religion into her other comics. Her side-comic was just an idea that she wanted the world to see and so she let it come to life. She did nothing wrong with her desire to share that she learned something new. It’s just her way of expressing herself.
I do not think that this little comic is a reason to dislike Minna or stop being a fan of her works. One work is different from another. You may not like one work of an artist but you may love another one for all eternity. If Minna openly proclaimed that Muslims or Jews or atheists were lost souls and that they must change their minds, that would have been a subject to consider. Until that moment, if it ever comes to be, I will not agree to blame her.

[Róisín]

Good points, Vulpes. I do agree about the bait and switch aspect feeling somehow dishonest. And I think that people who have a public platform should use it responsibly, with consideration for the innocent and vulnerable people they may influence. Does the bunny comic have a PG warning? I certainly hope so. This is, sadly, yet another reason why parents should read things before letting their children do so. You would think that a cutesy anthropomorphic animal comic would be safe from hate speech, but so many things aren’t safe nowadays.

Christianity of the more fundamentalist kind unfortunately can encourage this sort of behaviour, which in its turn enables vile politics, racial and social oppression, the Crusades, the Stolen Generations and much of the rationale behind the slavery that has created many of the racial and social problems of modern America. Have you read any of the sermons of the time fulminating about how they are saving the inferior souls of the Sons of Ham from their brutish darkness by bringing them to a civilised Christian country where they can be converted and can purge their sins with honest labour? I have, and I regard that stuff with the same revulsion as I do any theology that considers one group, race or religion within humanity to have souls of higher or lower value than the souls of any other part of humanity. Pardon the rant, but this is an issue that grides me, and I am doubly appalled to find it arising here where I had felt safe and accepted.

We should also remember that what we have now as the Bible is a very heavily edited and amended work, and that the faith now contains many aspects that were not original. Consider the depredations of the Councils of Nicaea and the Council of Whitby, leading to such things as the loss of female clergy, the requirement for monkish celibacy, and huge financial gains for the church establishment at the expense of their believers. I wonder what the Christ would think of it all?

[thorny]

Yes, there is no other way, believe in God or play for the Council like a marionette.

Seriously? All non-Christians have to let their friends starve to death in the street, and couldn't possibly do anything about it unless they converted?

I vehemently disagree with that.

If you do not agree with what Christians believe or if you consider yourself of a different religion, than why does it even bother you? Why do you pay so much attention to things that you think aren’t true?

Why does it bother me? Because historically people have killed and tortured other people over religion. Frequently. And recently. In some places right now. Do I think Minna's consciously calling for that to happen? No, but the attitude she's espousing is what leads to it.

Why do I pay attention to things I think aren't true? Sometimes, as above, because I think they're dangerous. And any time, including when they're not dangerous, because I think it's really interesting how other people think. And because a lot of good people think some things that I think aren't true, but I want to pay attention to the people.

If Minna openly proclaimed that Muslims or Jews or atheists were lost souls and that they must change their minds, that would have been a subject to consider.

She did. Just because she didn't specifically use the words "Muslims" or "Jews" or "atheists" doesn't mean that that isn't what she's saying. She's just including everybody else along with us.

[phyrestorm999]

The comic itself has an interesting premise and makes good points about the darker side of social media, influencers, and what can happen if we give huge organizations, be they governments or corporations, too much power.  The Bible-pushing was pretty heavy-handed but didn't completely ruin the story.

And then there's the author's note.

Yikes.

Others have already done an excellent job of explaining what's wrong there, so I'm not going to get into it right now.

Minna, like everyone else, has every right to practice her religion, believe whatever she wants, and even use her website to insult those of us who don't share her beliefs.  What she doesn't have a right to is our attention or our money.  Personally, that load of cross-encrusted nastiness left such a bad taste in my mouth that I've gone off SSSS for the moment.  I imagine I'll get over it enough to return sooner or later, but it will be with my ad blocker reactivated.

Dear Jesus, protect me from your followers.

[Kitty]

i feel the need to add my comment...

so uh, i am an unbaptized atheist living in an extremely catholic country who, as a kid, didnt go to religion class and don't go to church at all
and while i didnt really have any horrible terrible experiences like some people mentioned in this thread already, i did get a fair share of really mean people in my life, both from my then-peers as kids and adults, and thats not nice. its not nice to hear a 10yo classmate asking me if i know im going to hell and other mean stuff.

and this comic made me sad and hurt bc it felt a bit like that.


THAT BEING SAID
the comic itself is beautifully drawn, and i really liked some scenes from it, like that influencer bunny yelling at posers.
message got really scrambled tho, it felt as if it's saying 'this authoritative government system is extremely bad and doesnt let you question anything and you are either good or not a person, so you must listen to this authoritative system that doesnt let you question anything for you salvation'.

THAT THAT BEING SAID
i feel like year 2020 was extremely bad for everyone's mental health. and i dont think minna really went out that much before, so this made her extra cooped up, and all this bad situation gave rise to a bad feeling: fear.
and add to that additional fearmongering from bad people, like that guy that put a covid test into coca cola, and you get a recipe for a really bad thing happening to a person's mind.
minna is probably not really feeling well, and thats understandable.
she found solace in faith, and thats also good and im very happy for her.
i hope she will feel better soon, and i hope she will manage to understand that the message she tried to send was made with good intentions, but wasnt really... good.
i dont think shes a bad person or wanted to be mean to people. its just that the religion she chose is like that sometimes: you are either saved from your sins, or you are bad and go to hell.
and i dont think its a nice thing to say to people who arent doing anything bad except not believing in the same thing you do, or hold them responsible for sins you think everybody did



ALSO equating social credits system to a passport that checks if you're carrying the pandemic virus is a yikes my dudes. actual yikes. not comparable at all.
confirms my scared and not feeling well idea above.

I hope she feels better soon.

[Annuil]

Seriously? All non-Christians have to let their friends starve to death in the street, and couldn't possibly do anything about it unless they converted?

I did not say that. And I do not get your point here. You see, in that comic there are many aspects of life that can be thought of. Minna did a great job pulling up ideas that we can think over, however she did not give solutions to some social problems. She focused on one side of the issue - religion, a certain religion, Christianity in this particular piece. Maybe there were some other ways people could have helped others but it seems like the governmental structure in that utopia is not allowing "good" citizens help "bad" citizens and that can happen easily and it is happening in our world, in a way. Not many people go out to help those suffering on the streets.

Why does it bother me? Because historically people have killed and tortured other people over religion. Frequently. And recently. In some places right now. Do I think Minna's consciously calling for that to happen? No, but the attitude she's espousing is what leads to it.

Why do I pay attention to things I think aren't true? Sometimes, as above, because I think they're dangerous. And any time, including when they're not dangerous, because I think it's really interesting how other people think. And because a lot of good people think some things that I think aren't true, but I want to pay attention to the people.

I totally agree with you, people did and do murder on the basis of religious principles. And yes, that should not take place. On the other hand, as I said before, I do not believe Minna made her comic to call anyone to do anything. She simply stated what she believes as the right thing. Indeed it is interesting to know what other people think, but it should not cause arguing in a hard way, as it feels like we are doing now.

She did. Just because she didn't specifically use the words "Muslims" or "Jews" or "atheists" doesn't mean that that isn't what she's saying. She's just including everybody else along with us.

That is the statement of faith, not an insult. For a Christian calling people to God is a great part of life, so to proclaim about one's faith it has to do something about calling others to repent. That is a healthy religious activity. One cannot speak about a religious topic, talk about their own faith and not try to convert someone. It is true for almost every religion. Others who are reading/listening must understand that.

I repeat, calling others to a certain faith is natural for every religion and should not be taken as an offense.

[thorny]

I did not say that.

 What you said was:

there is no other way, believe in God or play for the Council like a marionette.

How else is it possible to interpret that? The Council in the comic was requiring people to let their friends starve in the street if the friends' points dropped too low.

  One cannot speak about a religious topic, talk about their own faith and not try to convert someone. It is true for almost every religion. [ . . . ]
I repeat, calling others to a certain faith is natural for every religion

That is simply not true. Your religious education is lacking.

And there are plenty of people even among Christians who are quite capable of speaking about religious topics and talking about their own faith without overtly insisting that everyone else ought to convert.

[yung_chrysanthemum]

I haven't read this entire thread, but I'll just pop in to add: I am definitely interested to see if Minna's new perspective influences SSSS going forward. Obviously the entire Pastor Anne arc had a religious undertone, but the first adventure overall didn't really have a Christian message (and the second one doesn't either so far). And the Pastor Anne arc likely occurred *before* Minna converted.

[Azukidere]

That is the statement of faith, not an insult. For a Christian calling people to God is a great part of life, so to proclaim about one's faith it has to do something about calling others to repent. That is a healthy religious activity. One cannot speak about a religious topic, talk about their own faith and not try to convert someone. It is true for almost every religion. Others who are reading/listening must understand that.

I repeat, calling others to a certain faith is natural for every religion and should not be taken as an offense.

Ok so this was supposed to be more clinical but I kind of went off but yanno what I’m a gay asian living in a post-Trump presently-COVID-19 America, I feel like I get to mouth off here, most of this is responding to this quote but ngl a lot of this is coming from my frustration with how minna engages with sensitive topics in general (terribly, it’s terribly):

I get that proselytizing can be natural for some sects, but this isn’t just espousing the virtues of Christianity, it’s insulting other ways of life as manufactured and manipulated, and painting a narrative of Christian persecution where none exists in real life.

It’s one thing to tell me that Christianity is cool and I should worship god, it’s another to paint inclusivity and updated thoughts on edicts displaced by thousands of years as government propaganda. If people were still espousing the same beliefs and same interpretations of the Bible they had even just a hundred years ago I’d be lying in a ditch somewhere. It’s the queer people like me, and the BIPOC, and the various marginalized groups who in historical terms only recently obtained de jure equality, who get blamed for the corruption of the institution of marriage, of society, of Christianity just not being the norm anymore. It’s rich to hear another story about Christian persecution vilifying inclusivity or cultural evolution when I open Twitter and see people from my ethnic community shot because a bat was sick in our homeland, or think about how the queer community doesn’t have many elders or grandparents because the government made the conscious decision to let us die.

Whether Minna consciously understood what she wrote or not, this is an offense to me. It’s an offense to take the stance of a group with a long history of enacting oppression, point to me, and say that the beliefs I espouse are what’s wrong with society, because it’s something that my people and many peoples have heard for years and years and years.

Talk about the power of god all you want, sing a thousand and one hymns, (they are admittedly beautiful) but don’t cry victim and point fingers and expect people to be ok.

[Dilandu]

For me, the main problem of this comics is, that I'm not sure: would Minna object for the same social credit system being used to force Christianity? Because essentially, the comics is quite easily to read as "how dare secular regime could use brainwashing, peer oressure and ostracism, while it must be used to turn peoples to True Religion?!"

[Dilandu]

How else is it possible to interpret that? The Council in the comic was requiring people to let their friends starve in the street if the friends' points dropped too low.

The problem is, that its essentially what all religions done in past (and some doing even now).

[Buteo]

It is such a pleasure to see articulate, intelligent people discussing this very difficult topic. I have seen my own reactions to the religious element, of the comic and Minna's  afterword, well expressed: The dismay over the One True Path message.
My problem with the major proselytising monotheisms is their insistence that there is no other way but theirs. How one path could possibly carry all the various people, and peoples, is quite an absurd notion. (There I am, thinking in loaded emotional terms again; I was trying to keep it rational.)
I am sorry for Minna, and hope she can grow past this phase of initial, rather blind enthusiasm, and wind up in a more mature frame of mind.

At the same time, can anyone here tell me how to go through and save every page of Stand Still Stay Silent, including the comments sections, so that I don't lose this story that I love, and this community that I value above any other that I belong to? I'm terrified that Minna will decide that she is required to make her living some other way, and turn iconoclast on us.

[Dilandu]

It is such a pleasure to see articulate, intelligent people discussing this very difficult topic. I have seen my own reactions to the religious element, of the comic and Minna's  afterword, well expressed: The dismay over the One True Path message.
My problem with the major proselytising monotheisms is their insistence that there is no other way but theirs. How one path could possibly carry all the various people, and peoples, is quite an absurd notion. (There I am, thinking in loaded emotional terms again; I was trying to keep it rational.)
I am sorry for Minna, and hope she can grow past this phase of initial, rather blind enthusiasm, and wind up in a more mature frame of mind.

At the same time, can anyone here tell me how to go through and save every page of Stand Still Stay Silent, including the comments sections, so that I don't lose this story that I love, and this community that I value above any other that I belong to? I'm terrified that Minna will decide that she is required to make her living some other way, and turn iconoclast on us.

Exactly. Without that passage, the whole thing would not raise that much controversy, because it would be "material vs spiritual" message. But specifying the spiritual part, turned ut dangerously close to outright propaganda.