Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'

[Róisín]

*patpats Lenny*
I have been fortunate that my experiences with Christianity have been nowhere near as bad as yours, but I have known many people whose experiences have been as bad as yours or maybe worse, including children who have suffered both physical and sexual abuse at the hands of Christian parents or authority figures, while said parents, priests and the like presented their abuses as a necessary part of asserting their patriarchal authority. On the other hand I have known Christians whose emphasis was on serving their God and caring for their fellow man, and who, when they made converts, made them through kindness, the depth and example of their own faith, and of their service to their fellow humans and willingness to listen and discuss their beliefs rather than by pontificating their One True Way.

And in answer to the comment about minority faiths: there are many kinds of Pagans in the world, some who just never went away from back in the old times, some who have rediscovered the old faiths and found that this spirituality answers their own (the collective term for those tends to be Neopagans), some who have come at pagan belief from a philosophical viewpoint, and some who have lived a Pagan life without knowing that there was a word for it. Remember that originally the word ‘pagan’ came from the same word as the English ‘peasant’ and the Italian ‘paysan’ or ‘paisan’, and the French ‘pays’ as in ‘vin de pays’; words meaning ‘of or from the country’, making the distinction between ‘pagani’ and ‘urbani’, country folk and city folk. Pagans were the people with a direct connection to the land. While we are certainly a minority, we are not just a small number of loons in a forest somewhere. Perhaps a little research is in order? Also, Jedi church in Australia? I live here and had not heard of that, but then I am in the country and it may be a city thing? Puzzled!

I am more impressed by the Christianity of the New Testament than that of the Old, the New Testament being, if I understand correctly, a revelation and reformation brought by the Christ himself and promulgated by his direct disciples. For myself, my own experience of a Christian stepmother being certain she could convert the largely Pagan family into which she had married once she told us the One True Way was distasteful, unpleasant and embarrassing, but all parties did survive and eventually achieved a workable compromise. She lived to a remarkable old age, and grew to be somebody we respected and whom some of us both liked and loved.

[Groupoid]

I agree with many points that were already mentioned, especially Lenny. And I wouldn’t like SSSS taking a focus on Christianity, if it were in a similar style.

If in the comic the bible would be substituted with something other, like Kant’s „Beantwortung der Frage: Was ist Aufklärung?“ or something like “Fahrenheit 451” or Orwell’s books (I don’t know examples that I think really fit), the plot would still work. We still would have a story about caring for the people you love (I very much liked the white business hare trying to understand his wife by reading about what’s important to her), and how a social credit system creates a ton of social pressure.

I wonder what community was created by the people that fled, because they surely aren’t all christian. Or even, if there’s a place the can flee to and they aren’t just killed by the government, to help keep up the façade.

Minna’s comment has some very off-putting undertones. I don’t like how she makes unconstrained statements and think such statements pretty much only lead to harm. I mean that she just forces the reader to believe that her god is real, everyone should repent etc. Pretty much the quotes Lallicat and Bunnies amongst blossoms already discussed.

[Mirasol]

Hm hm... This sure was something... I read the bunny-comic yesterday, but needed a moment to sort my thoughts about it. I´m glad I´m not the only one who feels weird about this...

I agree, plotwise and characterwise it wasn´t  really a bad comic. I liked that all the characters genuinly cared about each other. There´s also quite a few stories featuring a system like this. (I thought of "the Circle". One of its key-sentences, "Sharing is Caring" was used in Minna´s comic too, though not sure whether deliberatly as a reference to this book.) It is a system that is sadly reality in a part of our world, and it´s not wrong to adress it. But I too had quite a problem with the implications that Christianity is the only right way of salvation and the entire end-card, really.

Interesting idea. From my point of view, religious faith is a private matter between the individual person/soul and their god or gods, and not really my business except insofar as it directly affects my interaction with that person. I am happy in my own faith, and not concerned about what other people believe so long as they are courteous and do not try to forcibly convert me ‘for my own good’. I promise not to plant trees in their cathedrals, and hope to receive the same courtesy.

That system of forcible conversion didn’t work too well in the long term for the Inquisition, and hopefully will not work in the modern world, where there are at least some laws that address freedom of religion. I really think that Minna is too civilised a person to be vicious about this, and I hope that her conversion does not spark acrimony among the fans. Let us leave Minna to explore her new faith in peace, and I am curious to see if and how her work is affected.

I have a similar approach to it as you do Róisín. It´s a personal matter. I am a Christian (and luckily never had any really negative experiences with it, I´m really sorry for those of you who have!), but "lovely people" did give me "Jesus is the only way to god, stupid, I don´t need to see other religions as valid"-vibes, especially in the Bible 2.0-segment, which really bothered me. Continuing to read  from then on just made me more and more uncompfortable. And the end-card then destroyed any room left for a more positive interpretation. Like Lenny and Keep Looking already pointed out, I also don´t enjoy getting the religious message whacked in my face, especially when it´s one that seemingly automatically dooms everyone with different beliefs, which is simply rude and offensive. And it´s not like not doing that would somehow mean you can´t live out your faith "correctly" anymore. just that you don´t need to put your nose into everyone elses. Religious freedom is a human right for a good reason.
I was bothered by the "not being allowed to say anything "harmful""-bit too. In my opinion it´s great our current society makes efforts to change our past harmful-behaviors, also with offensive jokes and so on. The idea isn´t to "restrict" us, but to make it possiblle to coexist peacefully and equal.
So yeah, basically I agree with most of the points you already made here.

The end-card also kind of entered conspiracy-theory-territory for me, with the suspection that immunity-passes would be possibly used for other things than health in the future. (The best part is, doesn´t SSSS include immunity in their passports? And clearly didn´t spiral into a social-credit-system?)

Honestly, I´m still not absolutely sure how to feel about this and what to do now, but yeah.
I also hope SSSS won´t be affected by this...

[lwise]

The best part is, doesn´t SSSS include immunity in their passports?

Well, yeah, but in SSSS they are dealing with a disease that is lethal to every non-immune who gets it, if they don't turn into a ravening monster that tries to kill everyone around them.  Covid-19 isn't that.  Ebola isn't even that, lethal as it is.  SSSS is a bit different situation.

And clearly didn´t spiral into a social-credit-system?

For at least a generation they lived on the brink of extinction (famines killed half the population of Iceland, which was the least impacted by the Rash).  When a large part of your population is fighting monsters just to keep you from being exterminated, big government policing of everyone's behavior is likely not a high priority, although outside of Iceland, most people live in small towns or villages, and there would be social pressure to be "good".

[Vulpes]

Everyone's thoughtful comments are very helpful in processing my own thoughts about Lovely People. You have all made excellent points, and I agree with so much of what's been said. I guess my reaction boils down to the ideas that beliefs are personal, and that you must respect people's beliefs - unless of course those beliefs are harmful to others. As I went through the comic, I felt increasingly disrespected, and the author comments cemented that.

I don't subscribe to the old notion that for social peace you should never discuss money, sex, or religion; you can talk about anything, so long as you do it with an open mind and a willingness to shut up if someone says they're unhappy with the conversation. But in Minna's comments I see a very closed mind - it's her way or the highway. It reminds me of the neighbour kid when I was a pre-schooler. He had a slightly odd interpretation of whatever flavour of religion his family followed, and told me that Jesus was going to flood the world and only he and his best friend (who wasn't me, I was just the kid next door and thus convenient) were going to survive. This upset me - I tended to believe whatever I was told at that age, and he was a couple years older and therefore An Authority - and I tearfully asked my mother if it was true. She went ballistic, which was impressive as she was one of the most calm and patient people I can think of. She stomped next door and gave the kid's mum an earful, told her that her son had better keep his hateful ideas to himself. Reading Minna's comments, I hear echoes of the neighbour boy.

This all makes me a little sad. I don't need to agree with or like an author to appreciate their work, but like many here I really hope that these ideas won't seep into SSSS. I also note that she's dropping CoH, which makes me wonder if she will also abandon SSSS if she finds another way to keep the lights on and food on the table. I also feel a little like this was a "bait-and-switch"; you see cute bunnies and figure it's some lightness to balance the horror elements of SSSS. Grade E Cat, you saw the clues and were braced for it - well done.

I'll keep following SSSS, but only as long as I can set aside the author's personal beliefs and focus on an interesting story, well told. I hope that her current preachiness is in part due to her recent conversion, she will moderate her views, and that SSSS won't become a vehicle for evangelizing.

[Grade E cat]

Vulpes, great timing in your post, as I'm back to admit my fingers get itchy when something I've read doesn't have a TV tropes page, so here it is, for better and for worse.

[Yuuago]

I was bothered by the "not being allowed to say anything "harmful""-bit too. In my opinion it´s great our current society makes efforts to change our past harmful-behaviors, also with offensive jokes and so on. The idea isn´t to "restrict" us, but to make it possiblle to coexist peacefully and equal.

The "not allowed to say anything 'harmful'" bit really stuck out to me too. It illustrates a problem that I unfortunately encounter a lot in offline life: conflating authoritarian restrictions with ordinary social response.

Being unable to legally express yourself is one thing. It's another thing entirely when people (your friends, your family, or the audience for your creative work) hear what you say, and think that what you say is unreasonable or ignorant or offensive in some way, and tell you that. They're well within their rights to do that, and as well as saying "If you don't stop doing X/change Y thing, I don't want to read your work/hang out with you/etc".

It's an important distinction. And while the on-panel material discusses government censorship, her endnote discussion conflates it with social response in a way that I find very distasteful.

[Superdark33]

Always always VERY important to remember that the words and art on the page were put there by a person who wanted to convey a messege.

The entire way the rash works in SSSS or that it originated in immigrants that arrived to spain or that the only people who survived it are traditional rural folk with cities being destroyed (Specifically Tampere getting mentioned as one being burnt down to the ground), the way the society works in lovely people and its values being stated as in opposition to christianity...

All written by the same person with the same views.

[lwise]

Being unable to legally express yourself is one thing. It's another thing entirely when people (your friends, your family, or the audience for your creative work) hear what you say, and think that what you say is unreasonable or ignorant or offensive in some way, and tell you that. They're well within their rights to do that, and as well as saying "If you don't stop doing X/change Y thing, I don't want to read your work/hang out with you/etc".

It's an important distinction. And while the on-panel material discusses government censorship, her endnote discussion conflates it with social response in a way that I find very distasteful.

But being unable to legally express yourself is exactly what she was talking about in that passage. 

If you one day find yourself in that future utopia ...

The future "utopia" is the "if this goes on" dystopia where the government listens to your every word and punishes you for wrong-think.

I note that in the comic no one is punished for any "harmful" speech except against the World Council.  Even when Lavender decides to tank her credit score, she says nothing offensive against any person or group, except the World Council.  When Peony snaps, she is unpersoned because she criticized the World Council.  As for the Bible-reading, in recent totalitarian countries, reading the Bible is or was a subversive act.    See China today or the USSR back in the day.  In fact, reading the Bible for yourself was a big deal when the printing press was introduced, because it undermined the power of the clergy.

[Yuuago]

But being unable to legally express yourself is exactly what she was talking about in that passage.

There is also this:

Nobody will be around anymore to tell you about how you sin against God, to repent and humbly turn to Christ for forgiveness and salvation from the judgement that comes at the end of everyone's lives. That would be offensive, hurtful and harmful, and thus not allowed!

Take that as you like, but there is no charitable way I can read that.

[lwise]

Nobody will be around anymore to tell you about how you sin against God, to repent and humbly turn to Christ for forgiveness and salvation from the judgement that comes at the end of everyone's lives. That would be offensive, hurtful and harmful, and thus not allowed!

Take that as you like, but there is no charitable way I can read that.

But isn't that exactly what people are saying in this thread?  That Minna should not say that we are sinners and should repent, and so on, because it's hurtful and offensive?

I am not a believer, but I have friends and family who are, and I believe that I understand some of how they see things (not all -- I don't really understand faith).  They see everyone -- you, me, themselves -- as sinners in grave danger.  It's kind of as if they are walking in the fog on what they know to be a crumbling cliff edge, and they see other people running and dancing and generally having no idea how much danger they're in.  So they feel a need -- a real need just because they're good people -- to warn people.  To try to get them to slow down, to watch their feet, to stay back from the edge even if they can't see it.

Okay, I'm not a believer and neither are, I think, most people commenting here.  But because I do believe in religious freedom, I don't think that Minna should be condemned for warning people to stay away from the danger which she sincerely perceives, even if we don't perceive it as she does.

[Yuuago]

I think it's possible that we're interpreting "not allowed" differently. Or that we might not be able to see eye to eye here.

Yes, many people here are saying that Sundberg should not say those things.

This is a social response. Not an authoritative response. Nobody here can force her not to say those things. Saying "What you say is rude and offensive and if this is how you feel then I don't want to read your comic any more" is not literally repressing her from saying anything.

She can believe whatever she pleases, but that doesn't mean people can't also respond to what she's saying.

[Grade E cat]

I am not a believer, but I have friends and family who are, and I believe that I understand some of how they see things (not all -- I don't really understand faith).  They see everyone -- you, me, themselves -- as sinners in grave danger.  It's kind of as if they are walking in the fog on what they know to be a crumbling cliff edge, and they see other people running and dancing and generally having no idea how much danger they're in.  So they feel a need -- a real need just because they're good people -- to warn people.  To try to get them to slow down, to watch their feet, to stay back from the edge even if they can't see it.

Okay, I'm not a believer and neither are, I think, most people commenting here.  But because I do believe in religious freedom, I don't think that Minna should be condemned for warning people to stay away from the danger which she sincerely perceives, even if we don't perceive it as she does.

Wanting to protect people from danger, does, indeed, come from a good place.

However, things are much more complicated when the protector is the only one perceiving the danger. Just to give an example, many abusive situations basically masquerade as the abuser wanting to protect the victim of a danger that may actually exist, exist but be greatly exaggerated or not exist at all. If you don't have much life experience (which can honestly happen regardless of one's age depending on the social environment), it can be near-impossible to tell between legitimate danger you're just not noticing and a danger that's just plain being made up by someone else with the sole pupose of gaining some control on you. (As one may guess, many conspiracy theories rely on the fact that the second possibility isn't always completely absent) If someone has been in a relationship in which they were being controlled by those means, they may get jittery about people they meet later using a variant of the "the world is a dangerous place, I'll protect you from it" discourse, even if the person is doing it from a genuinely kinhearted place and the danger is sincerely perceived. From my point of view, a lot of behavior that is actually harmful to its target is currently being sold as "things [insert quality here] people do/say", and because of it, the knee-jerk reaction to a negative response is assuming that the target is the one not responding properly.

[Róisín]

I see where you are coming from, lwise, but I also see why people are disgusted and appalled. I would not consider telling Minna what she should believe, since that is a personal matter between herself and her god, or what she interprets her god to be. But I also don’t think she is entitled to tell others what to believe, since that is a personal matter between them and their gods or their interpretation of their gods.

I’m sure that this is a matter where it is hard or impossible to arrive at an answer that suits everyone involved. Hence the importance of courtesy, patience and sincere discussion of the topic in any resolution. And GradeECat, you make very good points, because so much fundamentalist dominance is masked as genuine concern that it is easy to see what may be genuine concern as something nastier.

[thorny]

I'm still trying to pinpoint what the exact message Minna wanted to send with that is.

She tells you straight out in the text at the end of the comic.

She already had a Danish Lutheran pastor perform an exorcism that their own efforts pretty much pale against ...

The way I read that (and the way Minna may well have meant it at the time) was that the pastor was able to show those particular souls the way home because they were Christian souls. Onni couldn't help them because he didn't know anything about where they needed to go. Pastor Anne likewise couldn't have helped pagan souls go where they needed to go.

There's a panel in which it's clear that Anne isn't going to make any attempt to convert Onni and Reynir. She says she's forgotten what she was supposed to do about that. Clearly converting others wasn't an essential part of her Christian faith, as she must still have all the essential parts of that faith in order to be able to resist the mental effects of trollification and to help the souls of those who were given the serum.

Minna may well not have thought any of that through, of course.

The Bible, at least when someone holds it up ready-made to the crowd in RL like Minna does with this comic and the closing remarks, is very much not a living antithesis to "we at Alizongle tell you what a good person should be thinking".

Exactly. It's only 'we who are holding this Bible will tell you what a good person should be thinking!' That isn't any different.

-- OK, apologies [ETA: this was in advance, and see note at beginning of next post] for multiposting, but I don't see any other way to do it on these boards; I'm only seeing the option to "insert quote" for the most recent few posts, and I want to respond to some in the middle.