Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'

[thorny]

I think it's good to keep away from a condescending attitude in general. Minna wasn't just an atheist, she was a condescending atheist (according to her notes from the day after LP was released or something?), so it's really the denial of other perspectives that led this way.

I've noticed that phenomenon a number of times in my life: the person who is vehemently certain that a given belief, political or religious or whatever, is The Way and everyone ought to take it up, and who then drops that belief system and picks up another one -- with equal vehemence that the new one is The Way and everyone else should be doing it also.

It seems that the insistence that there is One True Way is, in some people, not dented by deciding, sometimes even repeatedly every few years, that the one they were previously certain of was wrong.

(And, of course, having that attitude, they have to decide that it was wrong entirely; not that it didn't fit them, or that it had some truth and some error mixed.)

[lumilaulu]

For an example, in 1914 no one would have imagined that the Eastern Orthodox Church would be persecuted in Russia where it dominated completely at the time. And yet this is what happened in less than a decade later.

And yet ... 100 years after the Russian Revolution, 30 years after the fall of the Soviet Union, the Russian Orthodox Church is enjoying a great revival, and is on rather good terms with Putin, weighing heavily on social policy-making, in a conservative, anti-equal rights way.

[Jitter]

 I don’t think anyone is trying to state that Eastern Orthodox are currently persecuted in Russia.

However, the background society in LP looks very much like an exaggerated caricature of our current Western, consumption-crazed society. Easily read as current day American. In that context, “Christians are persecuted, help me I’m being repressed” tastes stale in my mouth. Very stale.

[Annuil]

It is rather interesting to read 51 pages of posts about how Christianity is bad and brutal and how Christians are attacking everyone, how they should not exist in this manner and also how they are supposedly not persecuted after all that. It is amazing.

[Keep Looking]

It is rather interesting to read 51 pages of posts about how Christianity is bad and brutal and how Christians are attacking everyone, how they should not exist in this manner and also how they are supposedly not persecuted after all that. It is amazing.

I can understand how some of the things said here would be upsetting to you as a Christian - I know that I've read a few things here that have made me uncomfortable, and I suspect my views line up more closely to the majority view here than yours do. I would not agree that Christians are persecuted in western culture, but some of the more hostile views I have seen against Christianity, while coming from some understandable roots, would definitely be enough to make many Christians feel threatened.

I grew up in a devoutly Christian family (in that I'm literally a pastor's kid) and while it's not a belief system I personally follow anymore, I do deeply respect the faith of my family and many of the people I know. Christian ideology has, historically and presently, been used to justify some genuinely horrifying acts, and that is something we have to acknowledge, but in the same manner I know I've seen in my own life people who've been motivated by their Christian beliefs to love and care for others and do genuinely good things.

I think many people here are reacting to the way that Christian ideology has caused Minna to act: in a way that feels preachy and unempathetic, and also goes along with her rushing of the SSSS comic's ending when it's been a story that so many have held close to heart. Just as you might feel threatened by the things said against Christianity here, many people here have themselves felt threatened by the way that some Christians have acted towards them, and it's important to keep that in mind.

The way I see it, Christianity calls people to love their neighbours and not to be self-righteous or pass harsh judgements on others. I feel that the way that Minna has written Lovely People seems to contradict these ideas with its very heavy-handed and preachy evangelism and the neglect to accurately label the religious message of the story when promoting it, as well as some of the insensitive comments she has made, particularly about race. While I don't begrudge Minna of her faith, I cannot agree with the way she has handled Lovely People. I feel that we have to ask ourselves: when proclaiming Jesus, are Minna's characters and Minna herself acting as Jesus would? Are they showing compassion towards others, or are they acting dismissive of others' concerns? Loving your neighbour doesn't just mean preaching the gospel at them, it means being considerate and empathetic. It means going out of your way to actually care.

This does remind me to say this, though: it'd be excellent if people here could please remember not to make vastly generalised statements or claims about Christianity when criticising the way that Minna has acted or claims she has made. Christianity is a very diverse religion with a wide range of people who follow it, and a wide range of interpretations of its teachings. Additionally, it is certainly not the only religion or ideology that has been used to justify atrocities: you can find extremists in all major religions, and it's factually untrue to single out Christianity as the One Bad Religion that's caused all these Bad Things when history is far more complex than that.

[Róisín]

Keep Looking, I couldn’t have phrased it better. My sympathies tend to be more with the kind of Christian who leads by example rather than by hostile and condescending preaching, and who makes their life a witness for their faith. I am more likely to listen to the opinions of the Christian who is working beside me at the soup kitchen or the post-bushfire cleanup than to the opinions of the Christian who is preaching from a position of safety and comfort that everyone who does not believe precisely as they do is damned to eternal hellfire. Then, I’m a Pagan, and we believe in judging people by what their hands are doing rather than by what they purport to believe.

[thorny]

It is rather interesting to read 51 pages of posts about how Christianity is bad and brutal and how Christians are attacking everyone, how they should not exist in this manner and also how they are supposedly not persecuted after all that. It is amazing.

It's amazing to me that you can read this thread and see 51 pages of nothing but attacks on Christianity in general.

Did you not see the multiple defenses of those Christians who are not attacking others which are so frequent in the thread?

Do you yourself think that Christianity is a monolith, and that any criticism of behavior by any particular part of it should be taken as criticism -- and even as persecution -- of everyone who's a member of any other part?

Do you think that criticism of actual specified and well-attested behavior by specific groups should not be allowed?

Do you think that such criticism is the same thing as persecution? And, if so, why would that not mean that those Christian denominations which criticize others are persecuting everyone who they criticize?

[Jitter]

I agree with everything Keep just said. I can’t swear that I remember everything in this thread, but the way I do remember it is loads of posts expressly stating it’s not being or becoming Christian per se that ails people.

There are several that strongly indicate they are not merely critical of but against some varieties of Christianity, but that is not the same thing as saying it’s bad to be Christian altogether.

Just as thorny points out, criticism is not persecution. Criticism of some aspects of a thing is not the same as saying the thing is bad through and through. And finally, some people saying that Christianity is bad is not persecution. Not even if it’s many people or even the majority of people on one net forum. Persecution is the society or those in power in a society stopping a group from practicing their religion. Persecution is sending people to work camps because of an ethnic, religious, societal or other similar reason. Persecution is refusal to sell you a wedding cake, because the baker thinks your love is wrong. And countless other examples. Persecution comes in many forms, but getting asked to respect others is not persecution.

[Aprillen]

I agree with everything Keep just said. I can’t swear that I remember everything in this thread, but the way I do remember it is loads of posts expressly stating it’s not being or becoming Christian per se that ails people.

There are several that strongly indicate they are not merely critical of but against some varieties of Christianity, but that is not the same thing as saying it’s bad to be Christian altogether.

Just as thorny points out, criticism is not persecution. Criticism of some aspects of a thing is not the same as saying the thing is bad through and through. And finally, some people saying that Christianity is bad is not persecution. Not even if it’s many people or even the majority of people on one net forum. Persecution is the society or those in power in a society stopping a group from practicing their religion. Persecution is sending people to work camps because of an ethnic, religious, societal or other similar reason. Persecution is refusal to sell you a wedding cake, because the baker thinks your love is wrong. And countless other examples. Persecution comes in many forms, but getting asked to respect others is not persecution.

THIS

[ohnosir]

Wow thanks everybody for the responses, it really helps soothe some of my worries. I know I'll always be in danger of drifting to other interests, especially given how long my project would be. But hey, you never know until you try!

I do wanna say, I actually don't think that Minna is "rushing" SSSS in the same way I've seen some other comic endings rushed. I can definitely tell that she has lost interest in favour of her new passions, and I'm actually impressed by the quality of her pages every week, not to mention the fact that she hasn't cut back on the schedule at all. Have I noticed where the art quality has dropped? Sure - but not as many times as I've noticed how high the quality STILL is despite the fact that she's dreaming of other projects. I suppose as much as it triggers my worries, I should be hopeful about the fact that she's still trucking on!

I also don't mean to diminish y'all's reactions against the unnecessarily heavy-handed Christian evangelical view...I just really grew up in the bible belt going to Baptist school so I'm a little...inundated. And even though I'm not a Christian, I'm sad to see the *actual teachings of Jesus Christ that I read in the Bible* of TOLERANCE being taken as attacks against Christianity. If y'all think Jesus would be standing on the streetcorner telling people they'll go to hell instead of hanging out at the gay club, demonstrating everyday kindness...idk what book you were reading

[Jitter]

Yeeeeah so, someone appeared on the Disqus comments saying he loves SSSS especially because he’s interested in paganism. So I welcomed them, recommended the forum and ARtD, and told them that Lovely People is not about paganism and has in fact heavily Christian theme. I specifically did NOT say to not read it (“May or may not be worth checking out but it’s definitely not more of the same!”)

Now the comments are closed. I want to think it’s a mistake, but I’m not sure I can. But she wouldn’t, would she? Has anyone been to the stream lately or otherwise heard from her?

[Yuuago]

Closing them doesn’t seem outside the possibility of something she might do, but it could be unrelated - comments do close automatically after a certain period of time. It’s been a week since that page went up.

I don’t remember what the length for comment pages staying open is, though. Can anyone else clarify on this?

[Jitter]

I don’t think there’s an automatic closing this soon, it’s probably at least a month? 471-473 are now closed but 470 is open. But then again ones before that are closed. So maybe she just closed them because she’s getting ready for the next chapter. I hope so!

[JoB]

I don’t remember what the length for comment pages staying open is, though. Can anyone else clarify on this?

It has varied over time as well as for individual pages. Minna occasionally has raised the timeout for "last page for a while / the chapter break", but is no stranger to forgetting such precautions, either. Autoclosing after a week sounds OK-ish for the four-pages-coming-per-week default setting ...

[thegreyarea]

Now the comments are closed. I want to think it’s a mistake, but I’m not sure I can. But she wouldn’t, would she? Has anyone been to the stream lately or otherwise heard from her?

I also want to think those are unrelated. I believe Minna usually doesn't even reads the comments after the few initial ones. But someone might, and told her. Even then we have occasionaly seem many comments that were far more critic and she didn't close the page.
She probably just thought it have been open long enough. (yes, I always try to believe in people's good side...)