Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'

[Sc0ut]

Matthew 5:11-12
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven.

First of all, I want to thank you for being open to hearing people with different opinions and life experiences, that's such an important and kind thing. I hope you also don't let the criticism of the method you chose to show your compassion discourage you. To me, it sounds like you're pretty young and not used to interacting with a lot of people outside your faith (sorry if I'm wrong in these assumptions). For someone who only ever sees the bible discussed as a text of wisdom and comfort in their daily life, it can be a sharp adjustment to understand that others have very different reactions to it, and I'm not surprised that your first reaction is defensive. I do appreciate your good intentions.

I do however want to get you to look at the specific quote you chose and see how it's probably one of the worst possible choices, even if no bible quote is great in this situation. When I became an atheist, for me this was one of the most painful quotes to hear, because it turns me, a non-believer who has objected to parts of the Christian faith, into an instrument by which Christians can know they're on the right path: "oh, I'm being insulted because of God! That means I'm doing it right, it's right there in the bible!" It's incredibly dehumanizing. My voice doesn't matter, my arguments are not to be addressed, they are only the "insults" that show Christians they're doing it right. (This is, by the way, a problem that applies to Minna's approach as well.)

You say that your interpretation is that it's just as bad to persecute non-believers for their lack of faith. However, if you look at the quote again, Christians are comforted with the promise of heaven. But most of us non-Christians don't believe in heaven, many of us believe there is nothing after death. The present life is all we have, so when *we* are are put down for what we believe, or don't believe, or who we are, we don't have any happier afterlife to look forward to. You can't overlook that when quoting this kind of thing. So maybe, if you really want to still quote the bible at non-believers in other situations, make an effort to see how the quote sounds from the perspective of someone who doesn't believe in life after death or in a force that rights all wrongs before you do. It could spare you a lot of awkwardness.

Anyway, I really hope you're not discouraged from continuing to engage with the conversation and from trying to better understand non Christian points of view. After all, all of us live in this wide world and we're better of when we learn to coexist.

[Sherval]

(Sorry in advance to the mods, but I’ve got a lot to say and I tend to ramble. So I’ll post my text wall in two separate comments. The first one is about my experiences with Minna’s work from the early 2000s, all the way ‘till the infamous racial slur incident and its aftermath. The 2nd post will be more about the current situation.)

Hello! I’m yet another first-time visitor on these boards. I’ve seldomly commented on the comic itself, usually cracking a random joke about something. Since Minna insists keeping the disqus comments closed for now, I decided to post here instead of adding yet another comment to the bloated page 409 section.

I’ve been following Minna’s work for a very long time now. Way longer than the majority of her current fanbase, since most folks discovered her either through Redtail’s dream or SSSS. But before those, in the early 2000s, Minna used to have another art site called “Umbren metsä” (literally “Umbre’s forest”) named thus after Umbreon, which was her favourite Pokemon at the time. Some of you might remember that her Deviantart nick also used to be “shadowumbre” before she changed it.

Over at Umbren metsä, she would post both comic pages and fantasy art, usually depicting either anthro or dragony creatures. Some of her earliest works over at Deviantart were also posted in Umbren metsä… but it looks like she’s now purged quite a few them from DA (including one dragon picture, that she drew solely with her non-dominant hand AND had received a daily deviation award). The artist comments and the comic were written in Finnish. IIRC, only some of them had English translations available. I do remember tho, that when she tried to reboot her ongoing anthro comic at the time, she included the option to read it in English… but eventually, she dropped that comic too. Both of those comics – the original and its reboot- featured anthropomorphic, bunny-like characters with long ears and long tails. They went searching for some random McGuffin and one of the main cast members was called Penta. IIRC, she was the straight (wo)man in a group of comical idiots, the voice of reason.

That’s about all I can remember from those days. Chances are, Minna might’ve mentioned these things in her art streams etc. (which I’ve visited only once). Anyhow, I was very disappointed when she left even the second comic unfinished and, even worse, purged Umbren metsä from the face of the internet! So when she announced that she’d be making a new long webcomic, Redtail’s dream, I was quite skeptical that she’d be determined enough to finish it either. Thankfully, she was, and she’s been finishing her comic projects properly ever since.

I read Redtail in its entirety. I skipped the long prologue of SSSS, because I found it too slow paced, but I’ve read everything afterwards. I saw the infamous Emil’s Asian slur-scene in its original form before Minna edited it. My first reaction to it was “Wait, that’s an actual slur? Not something Minna just came up on her own?” Indeed, seeing the comment section and paying a quick visit to Wikipedia, I quickly found out WHY people were so hurt by it.

Did Minna deserve actual death threats over an offensive slur? Absolutely not! But I could sympathize with those who explained how and why that term hurt them. Especially if they did so calmly and rationally (instead of foaming at the mouth and spitting vitriol like some did). And there were so many reasonable comments like that!

But instead of properly apologizing, Minna just huffed and announced that she wouldn’t make such cultural references outside of Nordic countries anymore. That reaction left somewhat bitter taste in my mouth. I’m a native Finn myself, so I wasn’t personally offended by that slur… but seeing an artist I’d admired for so long (and who I knew to be a few years older than myself) act so petty, heck, downright childish, was quite disappointing. Some folks have theorized Minna’s reaction was partially caused by those toxic, outright violent verbal threats she received. That she was so distressed by them and in return, refused to apologize to anyone. To “cave in” to their demands.

And while that may have played a part in it, what I saw was a grown adult incapable of understanding that she’d done something bad. Or alternatively; being incapable of admitting it publicly, eating the humble pie instead of stubbornly clinging to their pride. She could’ve just apologized, all the while pointing out that she did so because of the calm, rational comments explaining what she’d done wrong, not the ones that verbally abused her in return. That way she could’ve apologized, but also defended herself, reminding people that proper (n)etiquette goes both ways.

Part 1/2

[Sherval]

Part 2/2

So yeah, back then I foresaw that should Minna say something insensitive again, chances were her reaction to the scorn she’d cause would be just as unapologetic as before. And unfortunately, I was right. Never would’ve expected it to be about religion though, due to her previous, longstanding atheist views. Or rather, starting to preach about Christianity, of all things, rather than dissing religions as an atheist.
 
Disqus user Tapir (http://disq.us/p/2fvbnc3) made a good post about how most Lutheran Christians usually are in Finland. I’m definitely one of those “Christian through culture only” folks. Nowadays, I identify myself as agnostic, choosing to focus on the world as my senses perceive it, instead of arguing over deities or their prophets. Overall, my family was never very religious and the Lutheran customs I went through, both in private life and in school, never caused me any damage… unless you count getting bored out of my skull during church visits every December and May, before getting to enjoy my school vacation.

So again, even though I wasn’t personally offended by the comic (eyerolling as it was on the whole), I can definitely see WHY it insults people, even triggers harmful memories for some. I outright laughed at the last page and especially the afterword for how preachy, contemptuous, and smug it was. Certainly not the reaction Minna was aiming for, I’d wager.

…Scratch that, there was one thing that DID offend me; the part about “vanity” of pursuing self-improvement, mentioned in the afterword. Because self-improvement is exactly what I’m currently trying to accomplish, as my loneliness and constantly eroding self-worth push me towards a high-functioning depression everyday (if I’m not already there as I type this). Of course, whether Minna meant “vain” as in merely “futile” or outright “arrogant” makes a difference. In case of former, it paints her as quite the defeatist, in addition with those self-deprecating comments she said about herself. In case of latter, it makes her, ironically, very arrogant indeed, as well as a hypocrite, because she clearly wishes to be “better” now through her own faith. I suspect that in this case, she meant BOTH interpretations of that word.

A part of me almost wants to pity her; it’s clear that she’s had her own self-doubts for a very long time now. I’ve wondered, for years really, whether or not she has any social connections outside of her family and her online fanbase anymore? And if not, whether she even wants any? She works so hard, creates such detailed, full coloured pages and uploads 4 times a week, whereas other professional web comic artists usually squeeze in just 1, maybe 2 at best. That kind of dedication doesn’t seem to leave much room for socializing… I wonder, does she ever feel lonely? Has her way of life cut her off completely from IRL friendships? Because one can absolutely feel lonely without friends, even if they regularly spend time with their family and/or partner.

2020 was a tough year for everyone. I for one learned that just about all my IRL “friendships” are 100% one-sided, always based solely on my initiation. My messages, phone calls and invitations to go somewhere (had suspected it for a few years already, but that year cemented the fact). Quite the heartbreaking revelation, especially at a time when everything shuts down and you can’t go anywhere to distract yourself from your loneliness… So I can’t help but wonder, did Minna have a similar epiphany about the state of her friendships during that year? In addition to those things she mentioned in the afterword, I mean? Because 2020 was a very crappy year to acknowledge that either A) you don’t have any friends or B) the bonds you have with them are all one-sided. I might be entirely wrong to even suggest this… but regardless, she still picked Christianity to fill whatever void there’s been growing inside of her.

Minna becoming a born-again Christian isn’t the problem. It’s the way she goes about it. Once again, just because something isn’t or hasn’t been offensive to her (i.e. Christianity), she doesn’t care how preaching about it could offend anyone else. If she wants to roll in her own pity and self-hatred (all the while glamorizing it in the light of her newfound faith), that’s her choice. But to tell everyone that their “problem” is their lack of faith in what SHE believes, now that, is just BS. And that’s why, I can’t really bring myself to pity her self-esteem issues, despite having a boatload of them myself. 

Hopefully, she can eventually find balance between her faith and those issues, all the while learning to be more considerate towards others who don’t share her faith. But based on her past actions, I highly doubt it’s gonna happen, at least anytime soon. It’s Minnaway or the highway. The least she could’ve done, as many have already pointed out, was to PROPERLY mention the Christian theme in the comic’s synopsis before posting any links to it. Merely stating that one of the main characters is “a Christian homemaker” is still very vague. Had she included a proper description AND left out that condescending afterword, the bunny droppings wouldn’t have hit the fan like this.

Despite following her work on regular basis for years now, I am by no means the most dedicated fan of Minna’s. I think I once paid the total of 1 $ for a set of wallpapers and that’s it. I’ve never made any fanart or followed her art streams properly either (sans that one time). Even so, I do think it’s a shame, the way she boasts her new faith and what it’ll do to her comics from now on. Suffice to say, I will probably jump the ship after SSSS is finished. Because I’ve no intention of seeing more preachy, downright insulting Christian propaganda anymore.

I may have gotten off easy, being only a “casual” fan. But I can only imagine how bad this is for those who were, understandably, insulted or even triggered by the (not so) Lovely people. Who have closely followed Minna’s work and loved it much more dearly than I ever did, funded kickstarters, bought her merch, made fan content etc. To think that even now, she can’t bring herself to CARE why a great portion of her fanbase is in such an uproar, is pretty depressing. Depressing, but also unsurprising.

[Miragia]

I think a lot of what the complaints against Minna's response to our response boils down to an empathy gap. You shouldn't have to go through an experience (or have a friend respond in the exact same way) to be able to anticipate that something said may not go over well.
For example, I've never taken offense at the black-and-white, "This is THE WAY. You'll burn in a fiery lake if you disagree." Maybe it's the normalization from my Methodist/Lutheran upbringing, but that sort of dichotomy of religion still makes sense to me. That being said, it definitely didn't surprise me that others were very upset by it. I didn't have that reaction myself, but can see how it's justified. Even if they didn't grow up with that trauma, it's a normal response. It's not that I'm so super smart and enlightened and can see past the nasty feelings. It's merely that words affect people in different ways. Many of those ways are correct, even as they're opposites.
And I think what's been said is that comfort is the same way. Even if you didn't anticipate the negative response to a comfort you chose, an empathetic response is not one that sounds defensive, or an apology that sounds hollow (again – whether you meant it to be so or not), or an explanation that someone else finds it comforting. I think the ice cream analogy explained that well. You don't tell your friend, "Well my other friend likes ice cream when she gets dumped." You show compassion, because the assumption is that's where you were coming from in the first place. You asked for understanding, then attempted to correct those who offered it to you. If those comments weren't right, then what's there to even understand? It sounds as if you wanted a new perspective, but didn't like it when it came along. What perspective would you be comfortable accepting with grace?

And really what we expect from Minna – from artists in general, given their line of work – is a healthy dose of empathy. This isn't the first time she's approached an offended audience with a closed heart and mind. And while she's promised not to change SSSS, we've seen that the quality already has. And that, based on her past remarks, maybe it should. Because, "The wrong people are complaining about what I did" isn't something we want to hear again. But she's made it clear this will be her habit.

Your own personal experience, or that of a friend of yours, dont mean anything to the experience of others. Just because she is ok with bible quotes or stories, dosnt mean others would be ok with it. Part of the issue, for me at least, is the lack of consent. When I read that comic, I didnt consent to religious idealism. If I wanted to read something like that, I would look for it on my own. I didnt need it to pop up unexpected when my defense was down. Not from an artist and author that is known to cover pagan mythology and stories. Your friend has asked you to read and talk about the bible. We did not.

To pinkysaxton and tzelly: Okay, I can accept that perspective. I kind of already did, but I guess I tried too hard to explain myself. I pointed out what I saw as misunderstandings, but please don't think that I disliked the perspectives offered. Or yours, even if I'm kind of repeating my mistake here. It is true that I lack empathy. I'm working on it, but it never came natural to me (not kidding that I am no better than a serpent at this). I was trying to say that I didn't have the ability to anticipate that sort of thing, not that others should have to like Bible quotes just because my friend does. tzelly is right too, I really should know better than to preach without being asked to, and I am a bit disappointed in myself for that. I tried to help in the way I knew, failed spectacularly, and I'm sorry. I really didn't want to hurt anyone, and I won't be throwing any more Bible quotes in here. I'm afraid that's the best I can do before asking: what kind of apology would be comforting to you?

First of all, I want to thank you for being open to hearing people with different opinions and life experiences, that's such an important and kind thing. I hope you also don't let the criticism of the method you chose to show your compassion discourage you. To me, it sounds like you're pretty young and not used to interacting with a lot of people outside your faith (sorry if I'm wrong in these assumptions). For someone who only ever sees the bible discussed as a text of wisdom and comfort in their daily life, it can be a sharp adjustment to understand that others have very different reactions to it, and I'm not surprised that your first reaction is defensive. I do appreciate your good intentions.

I do however want to get you to look at the specific quote you chose and see how it's probably one of the worst possible choices, even if no bible quote is great in this situation. When I became an atheist, for me this was one of the most painful quotes to hear, because it turns me, a non-believer who has objected to parts of the Christian faith, into an instrument by which Christians can know they're on the right path: "oh, I'm being insulted because of God! That means I'm doing it right, it's right there in the bible!" It's incredibly dehumanizing. My voice doesn't matter, my arguments are not to be addressed, they are only the "insults" that show Christians they're doing it right. (This is, by the way, a problem that applies to Minna's approach as well.)

You say that your interpretation is that it's just as bad to persecute non-believers for their lack of faith. However, if you look at the quote again, Christians are comforted with the promise of heaven. But most of us non-Christians don't believe in heaven, many of us believe there is nothing after death. The present life is all we have, so when *we* are are put down for what we believe, or don't believe, or who we are, we don't have any happier afterlife to look forward to. You can't overlook that when quoting this kind of thing. So maybe, if you really want to still quote the bible at non-believers in other situations, make an effort to see how the quote sounds from the perspective of someone who doesn't believe in life after death or in a force that rights all wrongs before you do. It could spare you a lot of awkwardness.

Anyway, I really hope you're not discouraged from continuing to engage with the conversation and from trying to better understand non Christian points of view. After all, all of us live in this wide world and we're better of when we learn to coexist.

To Sc0ut: Thank you for your kind words. You're allowed to think that I'm young if you want to~ I kind of live under a rock, and I'm not used to interacting with people in general, so you're not too far off. I don't attend church though, and I kind of lack even other Christians to discuss the Bible with. I've had my dose of people saying that I'm not Christian enough and trying to convert me, but after six years they ran out of sermons and gave up (The serpent in me is still laughing about that, I'm sorry, I just can't help myself). Although I am fortunate enough to also have other Christians around me who don't demand as much patience, I can't really talk with them either since my views tend to overwhelm them. But even if I don't talk a lot with other Christians about faith, you are correct that I do see the the Bible as a text of wisdom and comfort in my daily life. I also see it as a dangerous book that is best read together with God (again, I'm disappointed in myself for not knowing better in this setting), and I won't claim to have decoded it all.

I was nearly about to say earlier that it may even be worse when non-believers are persecuted, for the reason you explained much better than I would have, but I was a little worried that it would be rude of me to make assumptions about other people's non-beliefs. So I do understand what you are saying, though I failed to make the connection in my initial post. I don't tend to see criticism as a sign that I'm doing something right (that's just weird), or that quote as an excuse to dismiss anyone's opinions, so the thought just didn't strike me that it would be viewed that way. Sorry, and thank you for explaining so well why it didn't sit right with you.

[Hedge]

I'm not sure what I was expecting but "an episode of Black Mirror as written by Jack Chick" was not it.

I'm genuinely concerned about her mental state because this sounds like someone at a low point who's been recruited by a Christian fundamentalist cult.

The final passage is very much the school of "wow lol my self esteem is low because I'm actually the worst and I should give up all to the wonder and glory of God" which, look I'm not Christian nor have I ever been, I'm only marginally culturally Christian really, but this type of theology always rubs me the wrong way. The teaching that you are fundamentally terrible is bad and I've a visceral reaction to the scraping, servile attitude some forms of Christianity profess/demand where you're meant to be unendingly, sycophantically grateful for a "gift" you never asked for which incurred a debt you can never repay.

And then, though it got progressively more and more unhinged as it went on, right into American Fundie Persecution Fantasy town, the End Thoughts go straight off the deep end with a running jump. Like I don't even know where to start with explaining that a top down point system of Virtue as defined by an entity detached from the people, where your access to human rights is dependent on adherence to company lines that sees defectors dragged off to reeducation camps for not paying appropriate lip service to the ruling elite is not even vaguely the same as a system saying you have to be vaccinated against a deadly pandemic disease to travel so as not to spread the deadly pandemic disease more. The right wing talking points ("Oh but what if the government decided to take your universal basic income away?" that's not how universal basic income works, it's universal), the weird "not like other girls" feel to a bunch of it, like she and her co-religionist are the only one insightful and special enough to be disillusioned with Capitalism...the irony of railing against the idea of some external system of moral points while also talking about how you must perform the correct rites to be free of sin.

The whole thing feels like she was one or two bad youtube suggestions away from having this end with the bunnies going off to rescue the mole children from the adrenochrome mines and walking to freedom having decided to accept the negative point score from continuing to read Q-drops.

[thorny]

I keep thinking this thread has died down, and then I take another look at it the next morning (my time) and there's another two pages. I suspect this has to do with time zones.

maybe I also need to take a good look at myself. It's not like my God needs me to defend him, anyway. Especially not against wounded people crying out in pain. Thank you, everyone sharing your experiences, for helping me see a little clearer.

Let me say, first of all, that if we'd heard this from Minna I think a lot of us would be feeling a lot better about this mess. Or at least a lot better about Minna.

let me also inform you that I do have a friend who had very bad experiences with Christianity and left it because of that, but still enjoys reading the Bible with me. Usually she's even the one asking me to read it with her, although she remains a non-believer. That is the personal experience I based what I said on. Still, I am sorry that I wasn't helpful this time.

But let me then say: your friend, like you, apparently grew up with Christianity, and retains at least some of what I'd call the back-of-the-head assumptions of Christianity: among them that the Bible, and the Christian testaments in particular, are a source of, as you say [in a later post], wisdom and comfort.

But to a lot of other people -- it's just another book. (As far as the Christian testaments are concerned, this includes Jews; even devout Jews.)

And to yet other people, that Bible is a cudgel they've been repeatedly hit over the head with. And to make it worse, the people who were doing the cudgelling may well have defended themselves against criticism of the damage they were doing by citing the very verse that you seemed to think would comfort those who were beaten with it.

Does that help to see the problem?

Please do keep trying.

[Haiz]

well, i did not think i was ever going to write anything on this forum ever again, but it's 2021 and anything can happen!!

i fell in love with ssss as a comic early 2015, and engaged with the community An Normal Amount (i'm still #4 on the top posters board i see), and took my distance for many of the same reasons as others did (discomfort with the Incident, burnt out from putting so many of my eggs in this basket, a need to flourish elsewhere). i think i've grown & changed as a person and artist since then, and my relationship with ssss has fluctuated a lot - i can never seem to just put it down. last year, seeing how norway and the other nordic countries handled the pandemic gave me a hunger to revisit the comic for some comforting familiarity, like yes, i am aware of its flaws and i am aware of my discomfort with many of the elements, but i am reminded of what i loved about it, too. it's the joy of seeing a sprawling story represent my culture (albeit limited in many ways), the characters and their relationships with one another, the language barriers, their relationships with religion. i don't think i've ever read it so much for the Story and whatever Points it's tried to make, as much for the exploration of the world and how it's inspired me.

now then.

when i decided to reread the comic in 2020, i decided it was for me, on my terms. i was going to have to trust my critical reading skills and my ability to enjoy whatever this comic gave me the first time i read it five years before regardless of my issues and my history with the community. and like, it worked. i fell a little bit in love again, even if apprehensively so. i even got inspired to draw some art again, and this time i did it because i wanted to, not because i felt obliged to, or wanted to please someone else. i could have been happy in that space of carving out my own terms. but the world keeps turning and i don't live in a vacuum and neither does anyone else. i was lucky that i got some heads-up about some Odd Vibes when minna announced her minicomic and the way she announced it, and even more warnings about what the comic was about when it was unleashed upon the world. i was not completely blindsided, but... how do you say it? i had no expectations and i was still let down.

as a dystopia story, it reads as a very shallow one. it BARELY scratches the surface of what an "everyone sit down and play nice" social media corporate dystopia can be. none of this commentary is new or groundbreaking in any way - brave new world was published 90 years ago, was it not? yes, yes, it makes 'Some Good Points', i'm on twitter too, i'm familiar with how the deeply cynical ways social media platforms operate. i'm also familiar with how pretty much every person on twitter critiques social media, influencer/celebrity culture, capitalism, and corporations. i've seen 15 year olds write indepth critique of the current capitalist hellscape. i'm also currently seeing a lot of artists and musicians i respected sell their souls to dabble in cryptocurrency because hey burning down the planet is fine as long as you get paid enough, so yes, i AM aware of where this timeline is going. so are a lot of people! maybe it's just the sphere i am in, but the dystopia presented in the comic doesn't make me say "hmmm really makes you think" but rather "way ahead of you".

it's like... trying to make a very political comic but removing any trace of politics. trying to make a story about oppression without wanting to understand the dynamics behind an oppressive society. the Dystopian Society tells you to not question it, don't think about the people it's hurting, and the conclusion of the story is to... escape it the moment you are inconvenienced, no questions asked? sure. WHY NOT. SATISFYING CONCLUSION ACHIEVED???? i can only agree with everyone else who talked about how the story could've been improved by making the bunnies start to question their society a bit more, give them some more time to dig a little bit deeper. question authority, think critically. but it does not feel like that's the story that minna wanted to tell, to be honest. it seems more like the story here "society bad because it makes you forego the bible, the ONLY thing that matters in your life. we have all strayed from the Tru Path". whoof.

like... it's not that i absolutely cannot imagine a society where christians are persecuted? my mother grew up in soviet czechoslovakia, which WAS a totalitarian regime that DID censor certain media. if i remember correctly, she told me my grandparents got married in a church - for political reasons, as an act of protest. doing things like this could cause 'nudges' such as demotion at work, or no longer being able to attend a certain university. this is just my memory of things i was told when i asked my mom about attending a revolution, so i apologize if i am mixing up facts and hearsay. but it's deeply tonedeaf to go "imagine a world that's gone so awry that people are punished for their FAITH!" as if it's not a reality for many, many religious people already, especially muslims and jewish people... again, i might be wrong here, but it seems to me that these persecutions are rooted in many lines and intersections of oppression and history, not just "grrr they believe in god and that's stupid". there's a machinery of politics driving these engines. it does not exist in a vacuum, and lovely people does not even dip its toe into that pool. there's this disconnect between an absolutely made-up world where everyone is a cute bunny living separate from our messy human world, and the religion VERY EXPLICITLY being christianity. CAN you put christianity in such a vacuum?

i'm an agnostic raised by atheists, and my relationship to christianity and other religions is mostly academic. i haven't had many experiences with it, neither good nor bad, and i sincerely enjoy media that explores these topics. i mean, my favourite band is the oh hellos, who have recently released a series of EPs that are explicitly exploring their relationship to their faith and growing up in the american south. a lot of it flies over my head due to my religious iliteracy, but my point is that if the bunny comic had like, actually explored what that christian faith means in a consumerist world, what real kindness looks like in a world of shallow niceties, that could've made for a more interesting story - but i'm starting to think it's very generous of me to assume minna wanted to tell a solid dystopia story with themes that work and not just.. promote an agenda.


so uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh that afterword, huh. it was really alarming to read, as someone whose personal experiences with organized religion has been very mild and chill. the only time someone has told me, an openly trans and queer person, i'm going to hell was some guy who didn't like that i was wearing a hoodie on norway's constitution day. i can't say i care for it.
gods know i've spent way too much time of my life thinking about what minna's intentions and experiences might or might not be beyond what she's written, so i'm not going to do that, especially when many others have gone into it much better than i could have. i DO respect her decisions to end the comic whenever she wants to end it (it's probably a mercy at this point), not wanting to work on certain projects anymore, and locking a comment section when she needs to. everyone has a right to decide what to put their energy and time towards. (i also DO find it funny how she's locked down her comment sections after releasing a comic about a social media dystopia that's so sinister for restricting speech... imagine being moderated...)


but here's what i returned to the forum to say. here are some things i personally deeply believe in:
being a human person is a difficult and messy thing to be. we are always learning, growing, and changing. we cannot know what we don't know, we can always make an effort to learn. punishing yourself for not growing fast enough is never going to enhance that growth. sending yourself into a spiral of guilt and self-loathing serves nobody (except maybe whoever is trying to take advantage of you), and especially not yourself. by failing you learn to fail better next time. and there should be a next time! i believe in forgiveness and i believe in keeping your boundaries. being kind and understanding of yourself makes it easier to be kinder and more understanding towards others. i believe in allowing yourself to feel anger, as well every other 'bad' emotion, to follow the threads and see where they go. i believe every single person is worthy of human rights and dignity and respect, no matter how much i might despise someone - and sometimes that respect means to draw a boundary or cut ties with them, because i'm worthy of it too. i believe in asking and listening and expanding your understanding of the vast human experience. i believe in thinking critically and questioning institutions and traditions and trends around us. i believe in acting with compassion beyond just saying words about it. i believe in creating solid communities. i believe in embracing the flawed and brittle existence i have in this life on this earth, and acknowledge that i am part of world that is happening as i speak.

that's all i think 

[thorny]

HAIZ!!

-- okay, you don't know me, by the time I started posting on these boards you were already gone, or about to be gone. But I'd been lurking for a while, and I went back and read old posts on some subjects. And I thought you were a great poster, and wished I hadn't missed you.

And you have just made another great post. Thanks.


[slinks away blushing without asking for an autograph . . . ]

[Hedge]

as a dystopia story, it reads as a very shallow one. it BARELY scratches the surface of what an "everyone sit down and play nice" social media corporate dystopia can be. none of this commentary is new or groundbreaking in any way - brave new world was published 90 years ago, was it not? yes, yes, it makes 'Some Good Points', i'm on twitter too, i'm familiar with how the deeply cynical ways social media platforms operate. i'm also familiar with how pretty much every person on twitter critiques social media, influencer/celebrity culture, capitalism, and corporations. i've seen 15 year olds write indepth critique of the current capitalist hellscape. i'm also currently seeing a lot of artists and musicians i respected sell their souls to dabble in cryptocurrency because hey burning down the planet is fine as long as you get paid enough, so yes, i AM aware of where this timeline is going. so are a lot of people! maybe it's just the sphere i am in, but the dystopia presented in the comic doesn't make me say "hmmm really makes you think" but rather "way ahead of you".

100%. "Mass consumerism is bad" is not some astounding and bold new take, almost this exact story has been done before by Black Mirror (and also to a lesser extent by every hacky technophobe cartoonist who thinks mobile phones are evil).

it's like... trying to make a very political comic but removing any trace of politics. trying to make a story about oppression without wanting to understand the dynamics behind an oppressive society. the Dystopian Society tells you to not question it, don't think about the people it's hurting, and the conclusion of the story is to... escape it the moment you are inconvenienced, no questions asked? sure. WHY NOT. SATISFYING CONCLUSION ACHIEVED???? i can only agree with everyone else who talked about how the story could've been improved by making the bunnies start to question their society a bit more, give them some more time to dig a little bit deeper. question authority, think critically. but it does not feel like that's the story that minna wanted to tell, to be honest. it seems more like the story here "society bad because it makes you forego the bible, the ONLY thing that matters in your life. we have all strayed from the Tru Path". whoof.

Again, this. It sets itself up like it's going to be about the horrors and evil of a totalitarian institution dictating who is and isn't a moral person that all must submit to totally, and then skids sideways into "the moral of the story is that it was the wrong 'totalitarian institution dictating who is and isn't a moral person that all must submit to totally' in charge". An absolutely wild take.

I think we're meant to side with the main characters but honestly they come across terribly. I can understand the whole thing of being ignorant in a system while it's not negatively affecting you but like, they learnt absolutely nothing it seems, they seemed to show not one single second of introspection about the rest of the system apart from how it affected them personally on that one particular point. They seem to implicitly agree that everyone else who got low scores probably still deserved it or something...

christian persecution stuff

There are places where Christians are persecuted now, the Soviet Union took a firmly anti-religion stance and harshly suppressed religions including Christianity but like, this doesn't read like that this reads like American Protestant religions persecution fantasies from people who think there's a war on Christmas.

so uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh that afterword, huh. it was really alarming to read, as someone whose personal experiences with organized religion has been very mild and chill. the only time someone has told me, an openly trans and queer person, i'm going to hell was some guy who didn't like that i was wearing a hoodie on norway's constitution day. i can't say i care for it.
gods know i've spent way too much time of my life thinking about what minna's intentions and experiences might or might not be beyond what she's written, so i'm not going to do that, especially when many others have gone into it much better than i could have. i DO respect her decisions to end the comic whenever she wants to end it (it's probably a mercy at this point), not wanting to work on certain projects anymore, and locking a comment section when she needs to. everyone has a right to decide what to put their energy and time towards. (i also DO find it funny how she's locked down her comment sections after releasing a comic about a social media dystopia that's so sinister for restricting speech... imagine being moderated...)

The afterword was where it went from hacky to actually concerning and conspiracy-theory-ish. But you're right there's a certain amusing irony to turning off unapproved media comments in response.

but here's what i returned to the forum to say. here are some things i personally deeply believe in:
being a human person is a difficult and messy thing to be. we are always learning, growing, and changing. we cannot know what we don't know, we can always make an effort to learn. punishing yourself for not growing fast enough is never going to enhance that growth. sending yourself into a spiral of guilt and self-loathing serves nobody (except maybe whoever is trying to take advantage of you), and especially not yourself. by failing you learn to fail better next time. and there should be a next time! i believe in forgiveness and i believe in keeping your boundaries. being kind and understanding of yourself makes it easier to be kinder and more understanding towards others. i believe in allowing yourself to feel anger, as well every other 'bad' emotion, to follow the threads and see where they go. i believe every single person is worthy of human rights and dignity and respect, no matter how much i might despise someone - and sometimes that respect means to draw a boundary or cut ties with them, because i'm worthy of it too. i believe in asking and listening and expanding your understanding of the vast human experience. i believe in thinking critically and questioning institutions and traditions and trends around us. i believe in acting with compassion beyond just saying words about it. i believe in creating solid communities. i believe in embracing the flawed and brittle existence i have in this life on this earth, and acknowledge that i am part of world that is happening as i speak.

that's all i think 

some good thoughts, take +23 points.

[Vulpes]

HAIZ!!

-- okay, you don't know me, by the time I started posting on these boards you were already gone, or about to be gone. But I'd been lurking for a while, and I went back and read old posts on some subjects. And I thought you were a great poster, and wished I hadn't missed you.

And you have just made another great post. Thanks.


[slinks away blushing without asking for an autograph . . . ]

What thorny said! 

[nance]

Note – this was written as I’m trying to vent out my feelings so it might be overall more critical than intended as well as tangent filled paragraphs that jump from topics to topics. I don’t have the energy to edit this either.

Heyo peeps and squeaks of this forum
I’ve never been part of the community here besides a few glances at some pages (ngl it's kinda confusing for me to navigate) but I’ve come here searching for other opinions on the Lovely People. I’ve seen a lot of opinion and good discussion on this, from both Christians and former Christians alike, which is why I feel educated enough to give my 2 cents.

First of all, I’m writing about this from the perspective of a first-generation Chinese immigrant living in Australia. I moved here at the age of 9 and am now 19 so my view doesn’t accurately show the belief of what someone who lived their entire life in china is, or even someone who moved in their adulthood (i consider my beliefs a bit more Australian/western than Chinese at this point).

Secondly, I’m an agonist with a mixture of Buddhist and Chinese traditional religion (eg Taoism) beliefs (i believe the existence of gods and higher power to be unknowable, they might exist, they might not, science neither proves nor disproves but I still believe in Buddhist doctrines if not for the message they hold then the spirituality of it). I was raised in my early childhood by my hardcore Buddhist grandma who took me to temples so much that those trips weighed in my mind the same as my art, piano, ballet and calligraphy lessons (not all at once, I started calligraphy after dropping ballet). Literally, last time I went back a few years ago my grandma took me on a 7-day prayer marathon in the dead of winter at a temple after hiring about 10 monks to our house a few nights prior for a ceremony to appease our ancestors, it’s a bit extra. So I’m not speaking from the perspective of an atheist but I’m not Christian either.

Third of all, I’m queer, I’m a pan-romantic ace who has recently gone on a trip of gender searching. I luckily grew up in an environment where I was never exposed to LGBTQ+ content until my teenagehood where I was then able to form my own opinions without bias. Though through some prodding of my family, found out half my family is hugely homophobic and the other half being ‘i don’t despise it but it's weird don’t you think?’ This is why I don’t plan to come out to them until I find someone or I move out because I am ready to cut ties (I’m studying an art major in an Asian family, I’ve already done some shit that they disagree with).

Now that I’ve made myself clear where my angles from, I’m going to start with the whole Christian thing. I think it's quite wonderful that Minna found faith in something after troubling times, faith and religion of any form can be a most important crux to those going through turmoil, an anchor during a storm, a method to help alleviate stress and increase confidence. But the way she has gone to show her new beliefs is not good. I wasn’t personally hurt by the comic, in fact, I was quite enjoying it (good art and fun characters) until of course the Christian part where I started to feel a bit uncomfortable. I’ve seen Christianity as a big and prominent part of many tv shows, books, movies and media as a whole, it wasn’t anything new and didn’t have anything to do with me so I just swallowed and moved on. Then I reached the afterword, where I proceeded to become even more unsettled and uncomfortable.

The afterword felt direct, alienating and ‘my way or go to hell’. I won’t touch on the more Christian side as that has already been heavily touched but I’ll give my view as a marginalized individual, it made me feel incredibly overlooked and personally attacked (fancy that, feel like opposites). The only people I currently know that are Buddhist are my family, no one else, there are 10 temples in my city nicknamed the city of churches (one across my primary school, one further up the road, my gym was literally in a former church). I’m not even a hardcore Buddhist, I’m not vegetarian for one and don’t recite scriptures daily but I felt alienated. Minna made it feel like the only faith that exists, not even viable to not be sinful in her eyes or anything is Christianity.
It was like she didn’t acknowledge the existence of any other religion than Christianity, a religion that 33% of the world practices. Excluding basically the other 67% as either non-existent or sinners. And to further that, push her religion, her beliefs onto (unsuspecting) others in such a ham-fisted manner. You can share your religion, your experiences with your religion, even suggest your religion as a possible solution to others. That’s all fine, but to so forcefully shove it down other’s throat shows little to no regard for other’s beliefs and feelings, it felt very tone-deaf.

You don’t know what I need, you don’t know what I practise, you don’t know my history nor my present. YOU DON’T KNOW ME. So don’t dare tell me that I will go to hell for my ‘sins’ unless I repent to an entity I don’t and never will believe in no matter how kind your intentions might be.

I live in a conservative household with those who share different political beliefs and might kick me out if they knew about my sexuality in a world where Asian hate crime is on the rise, don’t tell me all those problems will magically go away just because I convert. Don’t tell me the fear I feel that people will leave me once I start sharing my culture because the government ducking sucks is going to go away because the almighty robe-wearing dude in the sky hears my prayers. Don’t dare tell me, that ‘you’re sinful’ to a person in such a ducking bad mind space that casual thoughts of death cross their mind every other week, all because I don’t believe in YOUR god.

I already feel slightly ignored when people say ‘God will bless you' or ‘you’re going to heaven’ by those who wanted to show appreciation due to the assumption of my beliefs but I can accept those as just that, good-natured comments by those who will remedy their statement if I ever bring it up. And this is all that times 100 but goes down about as well as cyanide.

Another point, fine disregard beliefs but, do you not notice the toxic ness associated with the type of Christianity you’re preaching? The whole persecution of gays and how many people have been kicked out by their OWN parents? Conversion camps that still exist in certain places in the world? Condemning others based on their identity, something they can’t ducking change in the name of god? The death of so many who don’t hold the same belief? The criminalising and further destruction of any religion that is not Christianity? So many pagan and other small religions, the witch hunts, the crusades. Christianity like all other religion has a rocky and turbulent history (and a very controversial present), do you not understand the ramification and subtext readers are going to see?? I don’t know what’s better, Minna being ignorant of these/brainwashed by a cult (in which case I feel sympathy and hope that she’d realise and get the duck out) or that she knows and woefully ignores it to push this toxic Christian agenda.

About the social credit system, it's a nifty idea. It’s interesting and shows the possibility of a future that goes full totalitarian. Media consumption is already modelled and used in a way to sway opinions (hiding or manipulating information) and this is a scenario where the governments take that and go extreme. What is a world where its people are so dictated by a system that can destroy their life in an instant if their opinion does not fit within the ‘standard’ like?

Now how that fits with China is interesting. The People’s Republic of China has a turbulent history from its inception due to the authoritative nature of its government. The persuasion of people giving up the metal utensils in their kitchen to make bullets to compete with the west by promising 3 a day meals from canteens and then contributing to the great Chinese famine that lasted at least 3 years and is attributed by many as one of the greatest famine in history and the greatest man-made disaster with a death count anywhere from 15 to 55 million. Where rice, WHITE RICE was a scarcity to be savoured. A period of time where sharing ‘radical’ beliefs or working certain jobs (including teachers)/connected with certain people could get you sent to re-education camps and put you to labour without hope on when you might ever see your family again if they didn’t get sent there with you. These are just old events, many of which the government hides to maintain a good image and avoid criticism of themself. Not that it matters because people already fear certain fate if they speak out within or outside the country, from fines, getting arrests or even blacklisted.

I feel, that the story and the world it presents (in the context of critiquing China) don’t actively explore these problems any more than at a surface level. It doesn’t even show or discuss the upside of the social credit system other than getting stuff and going fancier places. The credit system is also in place to condemn bad behaviour such as blasting music on trains, jaywalking and stealing. The condemning of different ideology is a major part of it, but it's not the whole of it. Besides, the idea of a credit system is not a Chinese one but a global one at large. Applying for a loan and the bank look at your social situation and background history to determine what you can apply for and how much money you can get, studying hard to get a high ATAR or GPA or any other score because higher education’s won't even look at you otherwise (volunteering just to look more appealing). The difference between these and a credit system china would implement is that banks and school scores all have a higher entity to report to, that can make sure they don’t go power crazy whilst the ccp answer to nobody with the sole power of the lives of over a billion people and has a history of human right violation.

Another point for me, regarding the story itself, is that the ending feels unrealistic. I understand the idea of escape when your current life is on the line but no escape from society is that easy, especially from an authoritarian government that can track your every move. The choice to escape also came a bit too abrupt, did they not have more to leave behind like extended family. Not everybody has the means to just escape an upsetting situation without any repercussion, without leaving something they don’t want to leave behind. Not only that but why do they not try to change things first? Protests, commentary, it may seem impossible but don’t any of them want to change the society they were born into and lived their whole lives better than just up and abandon it? Even spreading the map so that others can leave too if they want would be better than just nothing. This is not completely impossible either, after animal crossing new horizons was banned in China due to its use in online Hong Kong protests, people began selling it under pseudonyms of bass fishing 3000 and other names. When certain words and topics got censored on beidou and weibou, people started using slang so these topics can still be discussed. In one case people got so upset by the decision to censor LGBTQ+ related topics that they revolted and the decision had to be overturned. There are so many things other than running, isn’t it a Christian thing to ‘love thy neighbour’? why wouldn’t you try to help before crossing it off as a lost cause?
(I realise the points made in this paragraph are honestly really nitpicky and nonsensical and I hope the overall points are understandable)

All in all, this makes me upset. I’ll follow SSSS to its conclusion (too invested to just drop it) but I’m out unless something drastic changes.

[Haiz]

hahaha it's nice to still be appreciated, i'll try not to let it go to my head too much!

Hedge we are absolutely Vibing. thank you for the 23 points, it is a good number. there's also a lot of other replies in this thread that bring up so many good and interesting points (i've been following this thread ever since it started, despite not having looked at the forum for Actual Years before now) and it heartens me to see an actual discussion about Many Vulnerable Topics.

i planned to disappear into the aether again, but i actually wanted to plug a video i really like. there are a lot of really good and thoughtful video essays around the topic of 'cancel culture', being a creator online, and representation in your storytelling, ESPECIALLY after what went down with a certain j k rowling last year (a situation that somewhat mirrors this one. a creator of something that means a lot to a lot of people, uses her platform to publish a manifesto under the guise of concern that actively harms a lot of her audience, where almost any backlash towards it gets framed as harassment regardless of severity... i'm sure she's been snapped up by a cult-like community during a moment of vulnerability, but that doesn't mean what she's doing isn't deeply harmful to a community that is ALSO very vulnerable) -

anyway there is a talk by leighton gray titled "how indies can cope with being terminally online" which i really like. i especially like that it taught me what 'context collapse' is, something that has been really useful to me.

i also wanted to dig up ab excerpt from brave new world that have stayed with me ever since i read the book, but ALL of the excerpts seem relevant... maybe i should just reread brave new world actually

[pinkysaxton]

I really didn't want to hurt anyone, and I won't be throwing any more Bible quotes in here. I'm afraid that's the best I can do before asking: what kind of apology would be comforting to you?

Honestly, this is the perfect start. I won't offer an answer, as my upset and offense was about the polarizing attitude Minna displayed and how her toxic message disturbed my reading patterns. But asking people what you can do for them shows compassion and a willingness to try something new. We all want people to 'just know' what's right (especially if we've spent a lot of time with someone, as you have with your friend who asks for Bible quotes), but we may still choose the wrong comfort. My boyfriend and I have been friends for over a decade, and sometimes he just plops down next to me on the couch and asks, "What can I do to help you feel less bad right now?"
So thanks for the question. I think people who were truly hurt may come back to it and give you an answer.

[pinkysaxton]

but my point is that if the bunny comic had like, actually explored what that christian faith means in a consumerist world, what real kindness looks like in a world of shallow niceties, that could've made for a more interesting story

This!! If she had used faith as a way of showing how it compelled people toward true kindness, I would have been very pleased. (Although I am somewhat smug about the previous posting, concerning the Rabbi, atheists, and kindness for kindness's sake.) I joined Instagram a few years ago after getting burned out on Tumblr, and my biggest frustration is how fake the niceness is. How performative people are. My boyfriend and I have cut a lot of friends off these last couple years (Yes, we are both lonely, but we realized we were just as lonely before.) because their friendships were just acts. They said what they were supposed to, but never followed it up with actions. We tried using social media during the pandemic to grow friends, and were met mostly with people who only wanted to talk when they were bored, lonely, self-pitying, and not in the mood for reciprocation. And we discovered that they never really left this state of mind.
How completely refreshing it would have been to take a (better-developed) world of constant performance and show people ignoring the points and showing true kindness. Even being persecuted and de-pointed because it made others uncomfortable to have that honesty reflect their fakeness. I see this comic as a lower form of the first Snot Girl volume – lesser panelling, pacing, and satire. I think that choosing a generic 'faith' and using it to show motivation for genuine compassion would have been well-received. Not only by the current fanbase, but by new readers who happen to be Christian. No, many of the new commenters on page 409 wouldn't have stuck with it. But you can still grow an audience with this message.
But, as I've said before, it sounds like being kind because it's the right thing to do it too far into 'self-improvement', even if it's not then used to show off to your followers.

[Mélusine]

Oh wow, it even made Haiz come back... (says the one who discovered the whole thing yesterday because Yuu talked about it, and personally stands at the "Black Mirror was better with no religious considerations" point next to the "Wow, what happened ?" one...)