The Stand Still, Stay Silent Fan-Forum
Worlds and Stories => SSSS & ARTD Board => Topic started by: Richard Weir on September 01, 2014, 07:50:26 PM
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So, as time goes by, what developments do we see in our favourite cat-boy's character? What life lessons does he learn? What do his actions and words tell us about his personality and past?
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I can't wait to see Lallis mage abilities grow. He also has be a loner due to being a night scout, but now he will be throw into the company of others. I wonder if he will learn at least a little of a different language. He hasn't been doing to badly though without words. The hair sparkles :D
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So, Lalli needs to use his words more, and Emil needs to learn that suffocation is not acceptable sign language. Hm, now I'm envisioning a Swedish/Finnish/sign language only those two can understand...
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[Great thread!
Personally, I want to see Lalli unpacked a bit more first.
We don't know much about his back story except that he and Tuuri apparently came along when Onni joined the army at Keuruu 11 years earlier. At that point, they would have been 8, 10, and 16 respectively. Onni and Tuuri don't seem to have parents or any other close relatives (or he wouldn't have accused Taru of "taking his whole family"). I'm guessing the lack of a family is *why* they came to Keuruu (and why there was a catch in Tuuri's voice when she told Emil about her childhood home).
What happened to Lalli's parents, we don't know. If they were alive somewhere else, Tuuri would probably have mentioned them at some point.
Lalli actually seems the most content with his pre-Expedition life; he only came along because Tuuri told him to. (As opposed to being motivated by loot and glory, the Call to Adventure, or the chance to meet tall, pretty, golden-haired Swedes.)
He is extremely inner-directed, neither as fearful as Onni or optimistic as Tuuri. Silent and watchful, he's almost expressionless within his comfort zone (and it's pretty hilarious that his comfort zone DOES include troll attacks but DOESN'T include baggage claim at the Mora decontam station, or horses).
In fact, Lalli seems almost emotionless except for rare moments, like when he comforts Tuuri on page 78 or reacts to her threat to leave him at the Sveavagen station, p. 147. (I don't know whether the Kuutar spell's "lamentations full of anguish" are literary convention or his actual feelings, but he's clearly not just reciting it like the rosary.)
Given that Lalli doesn't seem to have much of an agenda going in and is well-equipped to survive in the wild, he hasn't been set up plot-wise for disappointment or being hoist by his own petard. (Emil, now, has already set himself up to be taken down a few notches [*cough*girly scream*cough*].)
Everyone else in-story has agendas for Lalli, though. (Tuuri: get him better-socialized. Emil: befriend the poor mute Finnish lad, who clearly has NO IDEA how to take care of himself. The Adults: "See that enemy outpost over there, soldier? Go capture it.") The clash of their intentions against his inner compass will probably help fuel the plot.
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Hm, now I'm envisioning a Swedish/Finnish/sign language only those two can understand...
I am actively hoping for this, given the amount of time they'll be working together.
Everyone else in-story has agendas for Lalli, though. (Tuuri: get him better-socialized. Emil: befriend the poor mute Finnish lad, who clearly has NO IDEA how to take care of himself. The Adults: "See that enemy outpost over there, soldier? Go capture it.") The clash of their intentions against his inner compass will probably help fuel the plot.
Very nicely put. It'll be interesting to see what more we learn about what Lalli wants.
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Very nicely put. It'll be interesting to see what more we learn about what Lalli wants.
Well, it'll be even more interesting watching Lalli finding out what he really wants. Given his typical behavior (blindly following commands and having decisions made for him), I'd suggest not even he really knows what he wants - it'll be interesting seeing him realize that he can wish this for himself and what should he wish for himself.
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So, Lalli needs to use his words more, and Emil needs to learn that suffocation is not acceptable sign language. Hm, now I'm envisioning a Swedish/Finnish/sign language only those two can understand...
That would be so totally awesome and it would be hilarious to watch the production of said sign language. I can imagine many nights of Emil trying to work out gestures with Lalli staring blankly at him.
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That would be so totally awesome and it would be hilarious to watch the production of said sign language. I can imagine many nights of Emil trying to work out gestures with Lalli staring blankly at him.
Or Tuuri could help them figure out the meaning of the signs.
Your idea is so much funnier, though!
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Well, it'll be even more interesting watching Lalli finding out what he really wants. Given his typical behavior (blindly following commands and having decisions made for him), I'd suggest not even he really knows what he wants - it'll be interesting seeing him realize that he can wish this for himself and what should he wish for himself.
This is the thing I'm really looking forward to. I also think learning to communicate what he wants to other people will be a major thing too; he's got all kinds of walls to keep people out--language barrier is just the most obvious one.
Given that Lalli and Turri's parents don't get a mention, I think it would be safe to say they were probably infected or killed--I think Lalli might be afraid of getting too attached to other people.
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I see Lalli as a person who's blindfolded to life but is generally alright with whatever hits them, whether that be a potentially lethal expedition into the Silent World with a bunch of people he won't be able to understand or an undead lady trying to make friends with Emil and himself. It makes me wonder if something happened to him to make him so unopinionated, or if it's just his general nature.
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I see Lalli as a person who's blindfolded to life but is generally alright with whatever hits them, whether that be a potentially lethal expedition into the Silent World with a bunch of people he won't be able to understand or an undead lady trying to make friends with Emil and himself. It makes me wonder if something happened to him to make him so unopinionated, or if it's just his general nature.
He definitely seems like a "go with the flow" kind of character. Maybe something horrible happened that forced him and his cousins to leave their village so young. Perhaps he's stayed in the mindset, however consciously, that his life can change in a drastic way very quickly. Thus, he shouldn't get attached to people or a way of life. Maybe for him, dying is an inevitability rather than something to fight.
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One of the things that really interests me about Lalli is his lack of education. He has this highly educated, possibly genius cousin, Tuuri, with whom we assume he has lived with for most of his life... yet he completely lacks any sort of education at all, right down to not knowing basic animals such as horses. Then he has an advanced mage cousin, Onni, who treats Lalli the way he treats his own sister... yet he has practically no training in whatever-you'ld-call-what-a-mage-does, either. Whaaaat.
I guess it could be explained away by his solitary lifestyle, but even then it seems very odd.
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One of the things that really interests me about Lalli is his lack of education. He has this highly educated, possibly genius cousin, Tuuri, with whom we assume he has lived with for most of his life... yet he completely lacks any sort of education at all, right down to not knowing basic animals such as horses. Then he has an advanced mage cousin, Onni, who treats Lalli the way he treats his own sister... yet he has practically no training in whatever-you'ld-call-what-a-mage-does, either. Whaaaat.
I guess it could be explained away by his solitary lifestyle, but even then it seems very odd.
I'm still not sure about the relationships between Lalli and Onni. The way he said, "you just HAD to show up" at the docks just before they left could be read in different ways, namely:
1. Onni thinks that if Lalli hadn't shown up, Tuuri wouldn't leave.
2. Onni isn't terribly fond of Lalli in the first place and his presence just made the whole "Tuuri leaving" situation worse.
I know one line of dialogue isn't a lot to go on, but it's something hat continues to puzzle me. Presumably Onni cares about both of them on some level, but maybe not Lalli as much as Tuuri? That might also explain Lalli's lack of mage training - Finnish mages are trained by other mages, and Onni is probably the closest person to Lalli who is also a mage. Them having a rocky relationship (Onni doesn't strike me as a terribly patient person) would certainly contribute to that.
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well, tuuri is onni's sister. presumably he's closer to her simply due to his closer relation to her than to lalli. that said, i think interpretation 1) is more likely; even if onni's opinion of lalli isn't particularly high, i think tuuri's leaving is what upsets him the most.
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I guess it could be explained away by his solitary lifestyle, but even then it seems very odd.
Also, Tuuri often seems to act like his minder, and seems accustomed to explaining his behavior to people. There was some discussion back on one of the comic comment threads about Lalli coming across as being somewhere on the autistic spectrum or otherwise neurodivergent. With civilization being thrown back to "hang on and try to survive" levels for a good while, I think educational accommodation for kids who are "different" would have fallen by the wayside.
i think interpretation 1) is more likely; even if onni's opinion of lalli isn't particularly high, i think tuuri's leaving is what upsets him the most.
Seconded. Also, he was quick to hug Lalli along with Tuuri when accusing Taru of stealing his family.
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Maybe whatever made them leave their village lost them their parents too. In that case Onni probably raised both of them.
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There was some discussion back on one of the comic comment threads about Lalli coming across as being somewhere on the autistic spectrum or otherwise neurodivergent.
Sounds logical. Asperger could well be the case since communication difficulties, intensive concentrating on one point of interest, oversensitive sensory systems, difficulties with managing the complexities of everyday life and specific talents are all part of the syndrome.
On the other hand most people show some autistic trait or another. Perhaps Lalli is just strongly introvert and has spent most of his life in his own company.
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Perhaps Lalli is just strongly introvert and has spent most of his life in his own company.
That's also entirely possible/plausible. Also, given that Tuuri said it had been a long time since she'd seen any children, I'd have to imagine there weren't very many - if any - at Keuruu (it is a military base, after all). So, if there weren't any other kids around, Lalli wouldn't have had much chance to learn HOW to interact with people. Tuuri seems extroverted enough that she wouldn't have any trouble socializing with willing (or unwilling) adults.
As for Lalli, if he's like most introverts I know, and if he was recovering from the trauma of whatever happened to his village and parents, he'd probably find animals easier and more comforting to be around than people. I can easily imagine the poor little guy spending much more time around Keuruu's cats than it's people. If that's the case, no wonder he behaves like a cat!
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Maybe whatever made them leave their village lost them their parents too. In that case Onni probably raised both of them.
Very likley, I think it was clearly indicated (but not spelled out) that at least Lalli's parent didn't make it.
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I do hope Lalli itching his leg on page 180 is merely "this new uniform is weird" and not the first stages of anything he might have picked up from his Close Encounter Of The Trollish Kind (though he is listed as Immune).
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He's obviously just uncomfortable in it.
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Guys, are we not going to discuss how Lalli and Onni supposedly have a telepathic connection? Because that is something that
a) was not mentioned anywhere on the mage info sheet
b) somewhat changes their relationship
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Magical, yes - but telepathic? I think we need to wait and see how Minna portrays it before we can discuss it. After all, it may be no more intimate than a phone conversation was back when they were very rare and only a few households had them.
Still, it's an interesting idea and I sort of hope there is some kind of bond involved.
(Or better still - Lalli invokes a spirit animal to act as messenger! Imagine a grumpy Mrs Squirrel from A Red Tail's Dream turning up to shout at Onni!)
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Solovei, I'm curious about that too! I suppose we'll just have to wait and see, as has been said, we don't really know how magic works/if magic works yet. I did find it interesting though that Lalli could pretty much care less, and that was very in keeping with his character so far, and yet when Tuuri insists, he says he'll at least try. That also says something about him, cat-like though he is, he has enough regard for Tuuri (as one of his humans, I guess?) to do what she asks.
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Guys, are we not going to discuss how Lalli and Onni supposedly have a telepathic connection?
They do? According to what we've seen in the comic so far, it could just as well be runos chiseled into a boulder that gets express delivered by continental drift. 8)
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(Or better still - Lalli invokes a spirit animal to act as messenger! Imagine a grumpy Mrs Squirrel from A Red Tail's Dream turning up to shout at Onni!)
Hey, if there are spirit animals involved, Lalli definitely invokes a grumpy cat, not a grumpy squirrel. ;D Although I could see Onni sending Mrs Squirrel to yell at his stray sister and cousin.
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An interesting little interaction between Tuuri and Lalli on Page 220 (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=220): when Tuuri asks Lalli if he knows where they are he replies "I know where we are [...] A weird, foreign scary country".
And he still does his duty and goes out to scout.
(Some people read this as being sarcastic, but I couldn't help but read it as a bald statement of fact; this seems more in keeping with his more autist-like traits.)
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Yeah, I didn't read it as sarcastic either. I mean, Lalli knows that Tuuri was afraid, but really, what was he supposed to do about it? It's what Sigrun told him to do, and it's literally his job to ne a night scout. He seemed to know better than Tuuri what they were getting themselves into going on the mission (and I should note that he was the one who didn't even really know what was going on, originally). The whole point of the trip was to go to places that no one's gone - everywhere they'd go would be weird, scary, and foreign.
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Guys, are we not going to discuss how Lalli and Onni supposedly have a telepathic connection? Because that is something that
a) was not mentioned anywhere on the mage info sheet
b) somewhat changes their relationship
My half-assed last-minute theory to this is that maybe some Finnish have this ability based on how tightly knit their bond may be with someone?
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My half-assed last-minute theory to this is that maybe some Finnish have this ability based on how tightly knit their bond may be with someone?
If it was referring to the whole mage chat room connection thing, then I think it's been disproved already. Because, *ahem*, Braidy was there...
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If it was referring to the whole mage chat room connection thing, then I think it's been disproved already. Because, *ahem*, Braidy was there...
I wasn't referring to the mage chat room connection thingy. I was just referring to Finnish folks in general but you do have a point...
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On p. 230, Crazybean had lots of keen observations on our beloved characters. I'm distributing them among each person's thread here on the Forum.
I just need to gush about Mikkel. I nearly died when he gave Lalli a *cookie* of all things!
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And Lalli! At first his behaviour seemed out of character and then I realized: This was the first time he looks happy. It’s like the cookie broke through the barrier between Lalli and the world around him. For the first time he displays a desire [for] himself.
Lalli’s always seemed so emotionally detached from everything. Yeah, he’s not always apathetic, he does react when something startles him (like a sea monster) and is curious, but he seems to go about things mechanically on a need to do basis. He’s hungry, he needs to survive, so he steals some meat. He senses a troll, he needs to survive, he alarms the crew. But he never wants anything (for) himself. (aside from going home) Until now! He really wants those cookies.
...I just can't decide whom I love most. Every time I think this character is my favourite, another one does something and I'm like 'No He/She's favouritest!!‘
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On p. 230, Crazybean had lots of keen observations on our beloved characters. I'm distributing them among each person's thread here on the Forum.
I just need to gush about Mikkel. I nearly died when he gave Lalli a *cookie* of all things!
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And Lalli! At first his behaviour seemed out of character and then I realized: This was the first time he looks happy. It’s like the cookie broke through the barrier between Lalli and the world around him. For the first time he displays a desire [for] himself.
Lalli’s always seemed so emotionally detached from everything. Yeah, he’s not always apathetic, he does react when something startles him (like a sea monster) and is curious, but he seems to go about things mechanically on a need to do basis. He’s hungry, he needs to survive, so he steals some meat. He senses a troll, he needs to survive, he alarms the crew. But he never wants anything (for) himself. (aside from going home) Until now! He really wants those cookies.
...I just can't decide whom I love most. Every time I think this character is my favourite, another one does something and I'm like 'No He/She's favouritest!!‘
Hmm. I don't think he warned the crew to help only himself. He seemed to be doing something to help everybody, with exactly that intent.
At least that's how I looked at it. Lalli has his human moments.
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Let's hope he won't do to Emil what his old namesake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lalli) did to Bishop Henry.
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Let's hope he won't do to Emil what his old namesake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lalli) did to Bishop Henry.
I doubt Lalli would turn to homicide.
Hmm. I don't think he warned the crew to help only himself. He seemed to be doing something to help everybody, with exactly that intent.
At least that's how I looked at it. Lalli has his human moments.
I didn't mean to suggest that Lalli is a sociopath or something. He does try to help Emil on the train, poor guy just didn't get it . He's just dispassionate and mechanical about how he does things.
But I do think he's
emotionally detached.
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I doubt Lalli would turn to homicide.
Neither do I. I just wanted to point out the historical figure for the sake of humor.
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On p. 230, Crazybean had lots of keen observations on our beloved characters. I'm distributing them among each person's thread here on the Forum.
I just need to gush about Mikkel. I nearly died when he gave Lalli a *cookie* of all things!
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And Lalli! At first his behaviour seemed out of character and then I realized: This was the first time he looks happy. It’s like the cookie broke through the barrier between Lalli and the world around him. For the first time he displays a desire [for] himself.
I think it might be accurate to say that it's the first time he's displayed an indulgence for himself. Lalli doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would indulge himself very often. Lalli's emotional response to the cookie made me wonder if he's ever had treats like that before, that he could remember - if they just didn't have cookies in Keuruu (it seems like they'd be a luxury anyway) or if Lalli just never bothered to eat any (because he's supposedly a picky eater?).
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I think it might be accurate to say that it's the first time he's displayed an indulgence for himself. Lalli doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would indulge himself very often. Lalli's emotional response to the cookie made me wonder if he's ever had treats like that before, that he could remember - if they just didn't have cookies in Keuruu (it seems like they'd be a luxury anyway) or if Lalli just never bothered to eat any (because he's supposedly a picky eater?).
suddenly Lalli discovered that pleasure existed :p
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On a different note: I wonder how Lalli will react when (and if) at the end of the story, the group breaks up, and everyone goes their native land.
Of course, there is the possibility that they won't break up, that they will continue to operate as the most successful and renown exploration group in the known world, but I find it unlikely. Tuuri would love to see her brother again, Sigrun has obligations back home, Emil might want to try different things and advance his career...
Of course everyone would be sad then, but I think Lalli might be the most confused.
By the end of the story, he will probably see his teamates as family. We already saw him seperated by a family member before without any drama, but he didn't have any choice then. What about at the end of the story?
Would he prefer to return home with Tuuri and Onni?
Even if he has made good friends with Emil by then, feels super comfortable with him, and completely trusts him?
Or would he rather follow true happiness (aka Mikkel and his cookies)?
Every other character can probably make these kind of decisions more easily, or at least find middle ground via trips and mail. What about Lalli? Will he do what he is told? What he is told by who? Will he make his own decision?
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Some very interesting thoughts! But don't be too eager to find out, we don't want Minna to hurry through her story!
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I have a theory about Lalli's touch-sensitivity and other autism-spectrum traits: I have met people who are very sensitive to energy projected / given off by others. They feel the presence and emotional state of others, more strongly when those others are numerous and/or close to or touching them. Seems to me that that type of sensitivity, combined with his (untrained) mage abilities, would overload his senses and make him shy away from crowds and physical contact as a defense mechanism. The senses that impinge on our consciousness the most are the most difficult for us to ignore. Therefore, if he's trying to process all that information, he won't be paying much attention to conversations or the body language of those around him, even when they are talking to him directly. This would make classical learning difficult, and also explain why he doesn't seem to take in what's going on in general. In fact, most if not all of Lalli's behavior can be explained by his sensing something and reacting to it (except maybe the cookie- I myself usually react to cookies that way ;) ). Thoughts?
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I have a theory about Lalli's touch-sensitivity and other autism-spectrum traits: I have met people who are very sensitive to energy projected / given off by others. They feel the presence and emotional state of others, more strongly when those others are numerous and/or close to or touching them. Seems to me that that type of sensitivity, combined with his (untrained) mage abilities, would overload his senses and make him shy away from crowds and physical contact as a defense mechanism. The senses that impinge on our consciousness the most are the most difficult for us to ignore. Therefore, if he's trying to process all that information, he won't be paying much attention to conversations or the body language of those around him, even when they are talking to him directly. This would make classical learning difficult, and also explain why he doesn't seem to take in what's going on in general. In fact, most if not all of Lalli's behavior can be explained by his sensing something and reacting to it (except maybe the cookie- I myself usually react to cookies that way ;) ). Thoughts?
You mean like an introvert? Introverts are overwhelmed by the presence and actions of large amounts of people.
Well first of all, I don't think he has an actual touch sensitivity. Tuuri grabs him and hugs him and he doesn't bat an eyelid. He winces only when is startled or hit. Or squashed.
If I have to make any guesses, I'd say he doesn't understand the purpose of touching another being, so he isn't pleased when hugged by a loved one, and is only uncomfortable when a little more force is applied on him. Hense the wincing and the lack of batting eyelids the rest of the time. He just doesn't care enough to show an socially appropriate face each time and look pleased or neutral etc.
Besides, I don't think he actively shies away from other people-he just doesn't do anything, unless someone else asks him to do something. But I'm not autistic, I don't understand autism very well, maybe another minnion would be better at this :-)
Personally, I prefer him having autistic traits simply because of him "being autistic", in stead of "him being a untrained mage" or "him actually being a cat". This is a condition that happens in real life, and I'm pleased when it is reproduced in stories without extra mambo-jumbo to make it more appealling to ""normal"" people.
Of course, Minna has plans of her own :P We'll have to wait and see!
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I find it really hard to believe that Lalli is autistic - remember, he's been socially isolated for most of his life, and social interaction is a learned thing. I've been (essentially) isolated for a few weeks and I feel like a walking mannequin. If he really were on the autism spectrum it would probably be highlighted in his interactions with Tuuri - so far, it hasn't been.
I think y'all should take note of a parable I learnt a few years ago, where a bunch of scientists enrolled themselves in mental institutions and proceeded to record their experience. What they found was that even basic actions became medicalised; a subject taking notes was described as having "note taking behaviour", just like Helena above has pathologised a bit of physical awkwardness into "touch sensitivity".
Autism is a radically over-diagnosed condition. A cousin of mine is "autistic" but is clear as day just an introvert who doesn't want to argue with the doctor (or her family). A therapist discussed it (overdiagnosis in general, not that particular case) at Salon:
http://www.salon.com/2013/09/21/thats_not_autism_its_simply_a_brainy_introverted_boy/ (http://www.salon.com/2013/09/21/thats_not_autism_its_simply_a_brainy_introverted_boy/)
This sort of thinking is painfully evident on the sheepweb (Reddit, Tumblr, Imgur), where overthinking your words becomes "social anxiety", and little s***s who want to look better in the crowd fawn over (suspected) autism-spectrum sufferers like some bizarre version of a fag-hag, speaking for them and condescending at every opportunity.
It's also dangerous, because their is evidence (I forget the source) which effectively says that kids develop to your expectations. If you expect someone to behave in an autistic way and reward them for doing so you will gradually nudge them into a fascimile of the disorder without any actual disorder being extant.
Sorry for the rant, but someone needed to speak up for the "Lalli is just a very awkward introvert" line of thinking.
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I find it really hard to believe that Lalli is autistic - remember, he's been socially isolated for most of his life, and social interaction is a learned thing. I've been (essentially) isolated for a few weeks and I feel like a walking mannequin. If he really were on the autism spectrum it would probably be highlighted in his interactions with Tuuri - so far, it hasn't been.
I wouldn't know. That Lalli is autistic has been supported by people in the comment section who have been diagnosed with autism themselves. I think their own point of view and understanding of the matter is much deeper that anyone else's, so I tend to believe them.
By the way, keep in mind that Tuuri does not seem to believe her cousin is 'autistic', or 'introvert'. Just 'not good company'. I don't think such delicate matters are well understood in post-rash isolated villages, so I doubt that Lalli's environment "expected" him to behave in an introverted of autistic way. He just did it by himself.
And as for the expectations shaping the child: the expactations certainly affect how the child grows, but I don't think they can overcome the true nature of the child. Otherwise there would be hardly any homosexual people (because seriously, especially till recently who would "expect" his child to turn gay?), hardly any criminals, etc etc.
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And as for the expectations shaping the child: the expactations certainly affect how the child grows, but I don't think they can overcome the true nature of the child. Otherwise there would be hardly any homosexual people (because seriously, especially till recently who would "expect" his child to turn gay?), hardly any criminals, etc etc.
I don't completely agree with either point here (this one or Paul Ferris's), and I may be misunderstanding, but I think that if a child is diagnosed with autism and they aren't actually autistic, they'll still be raised by parents who now believe their child is autistic, and the child is likely to believe it themselves, until, or if ever, they know better. So that could probably shape the child's behavior in some part. And also, I have to say even if it goes off topic, that homosexuality is a completely different situation than autism. Like, you can't dispute whether your child is gay or not, and they're not going to believe they're gay because their parents expect them to be and treat them like they are. (Which might be what you were trying to say...?) But I feel like autism would be a different matter because it's less clearly defined.
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I think we need to step back a bit from labels like "autistic" and examine what is going on in Lalli's life, right now. He's in a foreign country, surrounded by strangers who speak languages he can't understand. There is only one person he knows, his cousin, and she keeps talking to other people most of the time. Thus, the verbal context for a lot of what's going on is entirely absent for him. It's one thing if someone pats you on the back and you know why they're doing it because they said something that would make such an action necessary, but it's quite another when someone does it and you have no idea why. It's random and confusing and probably kind of irritating.
So, I think it's rather unfair to assign wide-sweeping generalizations based on what is a relatively out-of-the-ordinary situation for him?
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I think we need to step back a bit from labels like "autistic" and examine what is going on in Lalli's life, right now. He's in a foreign country, surrounded by strangers who speak languages he can't understand. There is only one person he knows, his cousin, and she keeps talking to other people most of the time. Thus, the verbal context for a lot of what's going on is entirely absent for him. It's one thing if someone pats you on the back and you know why they're doing it because they said something that would make such an action necessary, but it's quite another when someone does it and you have no idea why. It's random and confusing and probably kind of irritating.
So, I think it's rather unfair to assign wide-sweeping generalizations based on what is a relatively out-of-the-ordinary situation for him?
This. This was my understanding too. I don't really think any of the characters, really, could be labeled in such a way because it's all situational. (And of course, yes, especially Lalli) Like, I understand how "very awkward introvert" could be read autistic, but his really awkward introvertedness is likely exaggerated because of all the new experiences he's going through.
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I don't completely agree with either point here (this one or Paul Ferris's), and I may be misunderstanding, but I think that if a child is diagnosed with autism and they aren't actually autistic, they'll still be raised by parents who now believe their child is autistic, and the child is likely to believe it themselves, until, or if ever, they know better. So that could probably shape the child's behavior in some part. And also, I have to say even if it goes off topic, that homosexuality is a completely different situation than autism. Like, you can't dispute whether your child is gay or not, and they're not going to believe they're gay because their parents expect them to be and treat them like they are. (Which might be what you were trying to say...?) But I feel like autism would be a different matter because it's less clearly defined.
It would certainly shape the child's behavior, but given that autistic children are usually encouraged to be """normal""" I think any socialization and improvment they do would be super encouraged. Worst case scenario the child becomes lazy: "I don't have to try to behave civilly because everyone expects me not to".
Yeah, homosexuality is a completely different story. However, until recently, (and where I live, this belief still persists quite a lot) it was believed that homosexuality was "a choice". That your child decided to behave like this (which was insane because being homo wasn't popular at all). I feel autism is the same: either you have it, or you don't. Sure you can have varying types of autism, display different characteristcs, but I find it hard to believe that you can fake or convince yourself that you don't understand what a smile means or how a conversation works.
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I think we need to step back a bit from labels like "autistic" and examine what is going on in Lalli's life, right now.
You don't have to examine what is happening right now, which is indeed outside of his everyday life, but what was happening while he was home.
He is incapable of understanding jokes (or only the jokes Tuuri says), to understand Onni's sarcasm. He did not react when hugged by Onni (neither all the times he has been hugged by Tuuri).
This implies not simply introversion, but general difficulty to recognise social cues.
In fact, we have seen him recognize another person's emotion only when their reactions were extreme. Like Tuuri hanging from the rails on the boat because there wasn't any view, Emil trembling from head to toe, and Emil lying down on the library floor.
I'll add that he did not realize that Tuuri didn't really intend to leave him alone in the train station, and usually only small children would believe such a trick.
(Also: a commenter said that each time when Lalli replied "ok" without understanding what was going on, it was probably because he has been taught that "it is appropriate to respond when talked to", and that time he raised his hand to ask a question it was most probably because he wasn't able to tell when it's ok to interrupt and when it wasn't, and he was taught to raise his hand to be polite.)
All the above signify that he has a hard time to recognize social cues. This is a characteristic of either REALLY socially inexperienced people, or autistic people, not introverts. I really don't see why he should be more inexperienced than Tuuri- they grew up in the same environment. If he was an introvert, then he would be used to HER and Onni's company, and would learn to socialize.
Another thing: he tends to do whatever is told instead of making decisions of his own. A commenter with autism said that it is much easier for her to be led in stead of making ANY kind of simple decisions. Lalli quit his job and has been doing exactly what he's told to ever since.
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Really whenever Lalli is called touch sensitive and things like that i feel there is a small cultural disconnect there.
In finland people don't really touch each other like that, people don't get physical with each other unless they know each other well and seeing Lalli being the way he is in the new enviroment isn't to me a big suprise.
Also really anything hasn't given me the idea of autism in the story since with the way Lalli handles things it fits to quite a few finns so i just think they need a way to break the ice between him and the rest of the crew.
Also was i the only one to think that Lalli was actually a girl? Originally i misfortunately just flipped trough the pages seeing if the story was any good and i really for a long time just asumed he was female :P
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Oh yes, lots of people were confused by Lalli's gender. And Tuuri's. And as for Braidy - we still get drunk every now and then because people think he is a "she"!
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Really whenever Lalli is called touch sensitive and things like that i feel there is a small cultural disconnect there.
In finland people don't really touch each other like that, people don't get physical with each other unless they know each other well and seeing Lalli being the way he is in the new enviroment isn't to me a big suprise.
Also really anything hasn't given me the idea of autism in the story since with the way Lalli handles things it fits to quite a few finns so i just think they need a way to break the ice between him and the rest of the crew.
Also was i the only one to think that Lalli was actually a girl? Originally i misfortunately just flipped trough the pages seeing if the story was any good and i really for a long time just asumed he was female :P
Plus a lot of the times the 'touching' was in fact, slapping, clinging, punching, squeezing, and smothering :P None of those are pleasant.
Hey I thought he was a girl too!!! XD 'What a nice, innocent looking girl this is'
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I supose most people were expecting there to be more distinction between males and females with more chiselled jaws and perhaps males being more muscular. Honestly though i guess i kinda like it since i can actually project quite a bit of myself to the charicter quite easily.
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Really whenever Lalli is called touch sensitive and things like that i feel there is a small cultural disconnect there.
In finland people don't really touch each other like that, people don't get physical with each other unless they know each other well and seeing Lalli being the way he is in the new enviroment isn't to me a big suprise.
Also really anything hasn't given me the idea of autism in the story since with the way Lalli handles things it fits to quite a few finns so i just think they need a way to break the ice between him and the rest of the crew.
Also was i the only one to think that Lalli was actually a girl? Originally i misfortunately just flipped trough the pages seeing if the story was any good and i really for a long time just asumed he was female :P
You bring up a good point regarding cultural differences! Things like how close is too close when it comes to personal space, or how you interact with "strangers" varies a lot in different places.
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I supose most people were expecting there to be more distinction between males and females with more chiselled jaws and perhaps males being more muscular. Honestly though i guess i kinda like it since i can actually project quite a bit of myself to the charicter quite easily.
Yea stuff like that would most likely never fly here since whoever did that would face quite a swift response of curse words and flurry of jabs and punches directed at the "assailant"
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All the above signify that he has a hard time to recognize social cues. This is a characteristic of either REALLY socially inexperienced people, or autistic people, not introverts. I really don't see why he should be more inexperienced than Tuuri- they grew up in the same environment. If he was an introvert, then he would be used to HER and Onni's company, and would learn to socialize.
Ah, but you forgot something: Lalli has been leading the night shift for SIX YEARS (assuming he started at puberty like the Cleansers) - probably with no holidays. Six years of no social interaction is easily enough to imitate an autism spectrum disorder, especially when it represents just under a third of his life.
Don't forget the cultural elements, as FinnishViking said above - Finns are not a a touchy-feely sort of people. If your culture is soft spoken and mostly verbal, and you've spent a third of your life stalking trolls by yourself, and suddenly you're thrust into a loud + physical group of people you'd feel pretty weird as well.
Then, of course, we have confirmation bias. When Lalli told Tuuri that they were in "a weird, scary foreign country" I heard "you dingus, look what you got us into" expressed by someone with little/no education. Everyone else jumped on the autism bandwagon by saying that it was a "bold statement of fact" expressed by what we're led to believe is an emotional robot. Whenever Lalli acts rudely or fails to acknowledge something he isn't just a very awkward person, it's yet more proof of his "autistic traits".
This comes to the fore with their interactions at the start - he didn't remember WHY he needed to quit his job because it was daylight and he was half asleep (sidenote, sleep deprivation can imitate every mental illness there is). But he remembered that he needed to do it and that the reason was important, so he did. He wasn't blindly following orders, he was acting in a constant daze and trying to get everything together despite zombiemode. Last night I tried to get milk out of my pantry - does that mean I have schizophrenia/alzheimers? Of course not. People conflate the reality (Lalli is a nasty cocktail of socially inexperienced and very tired) with what they'd like (Lalli is <conveniant stereotype>) because it feels better and is slightly easier to understand.
I agree mostly with Piney - we haven't seen enough of him in his element, and the vast majority of his coverage has seen him completely out of it. If he ever learns Swedish (or we see him again in Finland), we'll probably see a completely different side to his character.
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Even people with night shift have the chance to socialize with others the rest of the time. Besides, if he wanted to socialize more, I think he would have made efforts to achieve it.
People with autism are certainly not emotional robots! Whatever that means.
I'll agree that with enough sleep deprivation you'll stand doing all sorts of things, but I doubt he was THAT deprived. Even a 12h night shift allows you to have 6 hours of sleep, after which you are NOT supposed to act like a zombie.
Aaaand uh, I don't think that autism, a condition difficultly defined, different from person to person, and quite complicated is easier to understand than "awkward and tired". Quite the opposite, actually. Besides, if he IS autistic, he is not the stereotype of autism. And finally, if I had to pick from "akward and tired" and "underepresented in the media but very real condition", yeah, I'd go with the latter.
I'll repeat that the only reason I believe his autistic is that because other people who are supposed to understand it better said so. I don't think Minna will ever give a diagnosis, though. We'll just have to wait and see.
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I have to agree with the night shifts making him less sociable. I worked a graveyard shift for 6 months and I can tell you that I was not a happy kitten when I had to socialize. Everyone wanted to do stuff when I was supposed to sleep and I ended up half awake everywhere I went and not in a very good mood even if I tried to be sociable and somewhat pleasant company. Sleeping 4 hours because everyone wants you to be sociable is awful. Stress, depression and a very big case of leave-me-alone was what I ended up with. And I'm not a social butterfly, so I started that job with an already very social circle, but the minimum I had to do was enough to make me stop after 6 months even though I liked the job.
He can have autism and still be a zombie because of his situation, one does not cancel the other. And really, if we go with the definition of autism, anyone can be in that spectrum, there's is no "rules" as to what makes someone it or not. We are going on speculations from a comic that as yet to explain him at all other then that he is blunt and does not get jokes (that we did not see so no idea if they are jokes to be gotten?)
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Yes i think it's quite likely we will never get a definite answer but with the new page up i think we will find out more about our slender and secluded friend since he somehow managed to bugger off.
My bet is he just wanting some privacy since i think he wasn't exactly aproving of that half hug (?) he was given
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Other people have floated around Lalli as a sociopath or psychopath as well. I guess I have a really hard time seeing those or the autistic diagnosis, plus we have seen Lalli for less than a handful of days in a very alien situation to him. I think we don't really have much information about him.
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Lalli's emotional response to the cookie made me wonder if he's ever had treats like that before, that he could remember - if they just didn't have cookies in Keuruu (it seems like they'd be a luxury anyway) or if Lalli just never bothered to eat any (because he's supposedly a picky eater?).
The thought of there being no sweets in Keuruu makes post apocalyptic life in Finland even more bleak. Imagine little Lalli and Tuuri never experiencing the joy of candy. What a dark and grim future... If they do have them, I can't imagine how Lalli could not have been exposed to sweets at least once Even if he's a pickt eater . (Shame on you Onni for never giving your kiddies treats) Or maybe cookies are luxury goods in year 90 Finland.
My favourite theory is Lalli is perfectly normal ;D He was just incarnated as the wrong species.
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Fun fact: Cats can't taste sweetness. (http://toughlittlebirds.com/2014/11/25/does-food-taste-the-same-to-animals-as-it-does-to-us/) (As obligate carnivores, they don't need to eat anything sweet, like fruit, so they evolved lots of taste receptors for umami, the "rich, meaty" taste of protein, as well as for saltiness, but gradually lost the receptors for sweetness.)
So Lalli is not a Blessed Feline in at least one key respect!
I imagine there weren't a lot of sweets -- or spare calories of any kind -- growing up in Keuruu. I picture life there as pretty austere and spartan: a combination of Europe immediately post-WWII, an Israeli kibbutz, and Communist China (minus the repression and Maoist cult of personality, of course).
Even if there were candy, overprotective Onni probably wouldn't let his charges eat much. Bad for their teeth, don't you know...
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Fun fact: Cats can't taste sweetness. (http://toughlittlebirds.com/2014/11/25/does-food-taste-the-same-to-animals-as-it-does-to-us/) (As obligate carnivores, they don't need to eat anything sweet, like fruit, so they evolved lots of taste receptors for umami, the "rich, meaty" taste of protein, as well as for saltiness, but gradually lost the receptors for sweetness.)
So Lalli is not a Blessed Feline in at least one key respect!
Well there is always the possibility that Mikkel's cookies tasted aweful by human standards, but cats find them awesome! :P
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I imagine there weren't a lot of sweets -- or spare calories of any kind -- growing up in Keuruu. I picture life there as pretty austere and spartan: a combination of Europe immediately post-WWII, an Israeli kibbutz, and Communist China..
Perhaps he grew up with Mämmi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A4mmi). That would certainly explain his mirth when discovering cookies.
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Perhaps he grew up with Mämmi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A4mmi). That would certainly explain his mirth when discovering cookies.
...Mämmi is one of the things I miss from Finland. Add cream and sprinkle sugar on it, and it's tasty! That and proper rye bread. And candy. And cinnamon rolls. And... I'll stop now.
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I was watching some videos on YouTube of Finnish sterotypes. It looks like Lalli would fit right in and that Tuuri is the weirdo. :D
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I was watching some videos on YouTube of Finnish sterotypes. It looks like Lalli would fit right in and that Tuuri is the weirdo. :D
To tell you the truth.... Yeah Lalli propably could live here without anyone caring one bit while Tuuri being just so excited about everything makes him standout compared to her cousin.
Hell i see quite a bit of myself in Lalli
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For those going for the "lalli is a psychopath/sociopath" here is an infographic that pretty mush explains why he does not seem to be : http://fanatique.tumblr.com/post/108988346985/psychopath-vs-sociopath-infograophic
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For those going for the "lalli is a psychopath/sociopath" here is an infographic that pretty mush explains why he does not seem to be : http://fanatique.tumblr.com/post/108988346985/psychopath-vs-sociopath-infograophic
Er, just FYI both terms are used A LOT MORE in pop culture (especially crime shows) than actual psychological research. The terminology AFAIK was a lot more popular in the 70s/80s and kind of stuck around in the public consciousness while the scientific establishment moved away from it. Even then, it's poorly understood... So, I would take anything that claims to give definitive information like that with a grain of salt
Also, as with any other disorder, it's a combination of factors taken TOGETHER which persist over time. There's a looot of people who exhibit one or two of those traits, but that just makes them jerks and not people with psychiatric illnesses.
*takes off Psychology major hat*
carry on, folks.
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Correct. And there's a very thin line between narcissism and psychopathy. The most recent DSM threw out those terms altogether (I believe), replacing them with the much more sensible "antisocial personality disorder" *is studying psychology as a Year 12 elective subject*.
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I did not understand half of what you guys said... but I understand pop culture as changed the definitions of the words, but it is still good to go back to what they meant before trying to define what they are today. Good example would be that modern Sherlock Holmes is described as a high-functioning sociopath which makes him only matches the image I posted in some points. But it is something people can base themselves.
I think this makes certain that Lalli is not any of them (for now) as none of the description can apply to him.
And new terms are hard to remember... or which one is the more recent.
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Also, running across things in my pursuit to learn Finnish:
"Finns shake hands more rarely than many other nationalities. It happens mainly in formal settings and official events. If you meet someone for the first time, it's good manners to shake hands, but friends very rarely shake hands. So don't be offended if your Finnish friends don't shake hands all the time!" http://venla.info/lesson-1-meeting-people.php (http://venla.info/lesson-1-meeting-people.php)
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Also, running across things in my pursuit to learn Finnish:
"Finns shake hands more rarely than many other nationalities. It happens mainly in formal settings and official events. If you meet someone for the first time, it's good manners to shake hands, but friends very rarely shake hands. So don't be offended if your Finnish friends don't shake hands all the time!" http://venla.info/lesson-1-meeting-people.php (http://venla.info/lesson-1-meeting-people.php)
Wait. What. In which nation a handshake is something that friends do?
I've NEVER done a handshake with ANY of my friends.
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Wait. What. In which nation a handshake is something that friends do?
I've NEVER done a handshake with ANY of my friends.
Maybe it's an adult thing? I see men shake hands while greeting their friends and acquaintances all the time, (the really boisterous ones do hugs O___O) but it seems like something for...the older generation? If they're close friends, then the handshake might be a bit formal so they do a shoulder/arm-pat thing as they walk. (buuuuut, I'm no reliable source)
...None of which sounds like something the stereotypical Finn would be cool with if it happened without warning X'D
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Maybe it's an adult thing? I see men shake hands while greeting their friends and acquaintances all the time, (the really boisterous ones do hugs O___O) but it seems like something for...the older generation? If they're close friends, then the handshake might be a bit formal so they do a shoulder/arm-pat thing as they walk. (buuuuut, I'm no reliable source)
...None of which sounds like something the stereotypical Finn would be cool with if it happened without warning X'D
Acquaintances do handshakes here, yes. The same for older and/or not-so-familiar-relatives (or someone you REALLY want to show respect to). But friends hug, kiss on the cheeck or pat, no matter the age.
I don't think Tuuri would mind any handshakes, though. It just looked like Lalli has never noticed/done the whole handshake thing.
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Acquaintances do handshakes here, yes. The same for older and/or not-so-familiar-relatives (or someone you REALLY want to show respect to). But friends hug, kiss on the cheeck or pat, no matter the age.
I don't think Tuuri would mind any handshakes, though. It just looked like Lalli has never noticed/done the whole handshake thing.
Well there you go that isn't really considered normal at all around here really. For example whenever my uncles come to visit us we really never do any handshakes or that kind things. Really we just greet verbally not by touch.
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Well there you go that isn't really considered normal at all around here really. For example whenever my uncles come to visit us we really never do any handshakes or that kind things. Really we just greet verbally not by touch.
Learning about other cultures is so interesting! Where are you from?
I wonder are the greeting rituals in post-rash Finland. We have seen the very open and touch-y Tuuri, who does not hesitate to give hugs and touch new people, and the complete opposite: Lalli. Maybe when we meet Onni things will clear up...?
However, now that I'm thinking about it again, Lalli doesn't really hesitate to touch other people, either, he usually just has no reason to attemp to touch, so he does nothing. He has patted Emil on a few occasions though.
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Learning about other cultures is so interesting! Where are you from?
I wonder are the greeting rituals in post-rash Finland. We have seen the very open and touch-y Tuuri, who does not hesitate to give hugs and touch new people, and the complete opposite: Lalli. Maybe when we meet Onni things will clear up...?
However, now that I'm thinking about it again, Lalli doesn't really hesitate to touch other people, either, he usually just has no reason to attemp to touch, so he does nothing. He has patted Emil on a few occasions though.
Well as one can guess from my name im from Finland and more speficially the grand province of northern savonias capital Kuopio.
There are of course some regional differences between people from north, south, west and east. There for example is a saying that you never get a straight answer from a true savonian and so on. The ground rule seems to be that more swedish influence means that the person is usually way more talkative and open about things while more inland you go you get more and more rough and quiet. So Tuuri being more with the scandinavians means that she seemingly is way more socieable than Lalli and propably is more accepting on physical contact. Still finns usually want to minimalize any awkwardness so if you came to hug me on the street i would probly just hug back and try to go along with the odd circumstances rather than making a big number out of it. Mind you would get some of the many nonverbal hints that i feel uncomfortable.
Heres a handy article that explains some things for other people and gives the basics http://www.intercultures.ca/cil-cai/ci-ic-eng.asp?iso=fi
Still i think all finns are quite friendly once you manage to break the ice and here people often are quite eager to talk if you find a common tone to talk about. This of course means that our friend Lalli is having a bit off and hardtime doing that since you can't really express yourself fully with pure gestures but i think once we get braidy in the mix there might be some communication in form of the spirit world.
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Heres a handy article that explains some things for other people and gives the basics http://www.intercultures.ca/cil-cai/ci-ic-eng.asp?iso=fi
I think my favorite part of that whole page was how Finns tend to assume nobody knows where Finland is or even that it exists... much like Canada!
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I think my favorite part of that whole page was how Finns tend to assume nobody knows where Finland is or even that it exists... much like Canada!
Well i guess some people really don't. This reddit page is either going to make you laugh or blow your mind. For me it did them bouth.
http://np.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2qjohv/what_did_your_parents_show_you_to_do_that_you/cn6pn30
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Well i guess some people really don't. This reddit page is either going to make you laugh or blow your mind. For me it did them bouth.
http://np.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2qjohv/what_did_your_parents_show_you_to_do_that_you/cn6pn30
I found that depressing :-/ It's.... crazy to believe that a whole country does not exist. That its language, history, tradition, music, cuisine, mythology, achievements are all a fraud, it's... I can't even... Ugh.
....There is also the belief that CANADA does not exist?
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I found that depressing :-/ It's.... crazy to believe that a whole country does not exist. That its language, history, tradition, music, cuisine, mythology, achievements are all a fraud, it's... I can't even... Ugh.
....There is also the belief that CANADA does not exist?
Really it just makes me chucle because if you wilfully deny so much then just leave them be. Let them have their little bubble of ignorance and at least they have a non harmful past time which the rest of us can ignore. When this ended up in the finland subreddit most people just reacted with self irony and remarks on how true this and generally just had a laugh so i don't think anyones feelings were hurt so i think it's just fine.
Now i have never heard of a conspiracy about Canadas existance (luckily), but i imagine someone has something like that brewed up as well. Think about it, why would the 50 states revolt against their oppressive british overlords and Canada just sat there? How come there would be two english speaking nations side by side, sharing a continent somehow spawning from the same setlers and breaking away from the same fathernation? No... No i don't want to go there. Too dark of a place for me.
But after reading that i do admit to checking spotify for my finnish music and listening to it long to the night while reading kalevala and making "finland stronk" crowls ;D
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I found that depressing :-/ It's.... crazy to believe that a whole country does not exist. That its language, history, tradition, music, cuisine, mythology, achievements are all a fraud, it's... I can't even... Ugh.
....There is also the belief that CANADA does not exist?
When I lived in Russia, so... from birth to about 11-12, I had no idea Canada existed. I hadn't heard of it before meeting someone from there. I just thought that entire bit was USA.
I think, because America is so pervasive in spreading their pop culture everywhere that most people kind of forget that Canada is even there. There's the joke that Canada is "America's hat" which kind of summarizes this US-centric belief pretty well.
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When I lived in Russia, so... from birth to about 11-12, I had no idea Canada existed. I hadn't heard of it before meeting someone from there. I just thought that entire bit was USA.
I think, because America is so pervasive in spreading their pop culture everywhere that most people kind of forget that Canada is even there. There's the joke that Canada is "America's hat" which kind of summarizes this US-centric belief pretty well.
Really? I've never heard that joke before, though I think I did hear one once about a family? I guess for my family it helps that Canada is a two hour drive away and therefore pretty hard to forget. (As for Finland, I mentioned it to my brother yesterday and he responded "Yes I know what Finland is, it's that place in England.")
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10 years ago, when I first came to the internet, people thought Canada was fantasy land and did not exist. Igloos, moose and maple ? No way could that exist! The fact that I live here made them question a lot. Who was lying ? Me or their teachers ?
I'm pretty sure this is not part of the subject anymore....
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Unfortunately the links failed to copy properly - when you copy blocks of text from the discussion only the truncated links get copied, not the entire URL. You need to 'Copy link address' and paste each link separately, by hand! :(
Here's the full discussion, with links:
smjjames Uh, his hair is white, I think that's an art mistake?
minnasundberg
Haha, it's not white, it's light ashen, that's what it looks like in strong direct sunlight. I guess it hasn't been apparent until now since he's been wearing his hood this whole chapter. ;3 (And that's a relatively common hair color in Finland, certainly nothing remarkable or special.)
Frank Royce Harr
I knew it was pale, but not THAT pale.
Huh.
minnasundberg
Agh, I used to have a picture with a couple of guys with really close hair color to Lalli to show as an example since people have been asking about it before, but I've *sniff* lost it. ;_;
It's pretty close to this: Link (http://www.palloliitto.fi/sites/default/files/styles/main-pickup/public/media/p1995_teppo_syrjanen_300611.jpg?itok=k-PBVa3t)
or this: Link (http://www.google.fi/imgres?imgurl=http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I00003gcAKWt_Wt4/s/500/20110413-RIIKONEN-Jason-1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://jussieskola.photoshelter.com/image/I00003gcAKWt_Wt4&h=500&w=372&tbnid=TbHWg2E3nghlDM:&zoom=1&docid=EL4t3tckxLwv-M&ei=94DaVPqLCYP0OpecgagB&tbm=isch&ved=0CAsQMygDMAM4vAU)
except with more of a dull grey tone like the youngster in the background here (actually that's like exactly Onni's hair color: Link (http://www.palloliitto.fi/sites/default/files/styles/main-pickup/public/Palloliitto/Maajoukkueet/pjcup_pojat_671c.jpg?itok=qWBNFq8p)
starfallz
Minna, this one? Link (http://ski-keuruu.fi/seura/images/2013/07heinakuu/joukkue_pienenn.jpg)
minnasundberg Mod starfallz • 3 days ago
Whoo, that's the one! (Gosh, how did you remember? It's been like ages since I linked it in the comments. xD)
starfallz
Been digging up details for the wiki. :D
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I've just realised - Lalli got Tuuri's note to meet his boss etc to get this expedition started. He saw the note when he came home after his shift. *What* shift? If he'd resigned from his job, why was he out scouting at night?
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I've just realised, Lalli found Tuuri's note to meet the expedition boat as he came home from his shift. *What* shift? He'd resigned, why was he out on night patrol anyway?
Yeah, I wondered about that myself. Could his resignation not have taken effect until that day anyhow? (Like giving 2 weeks' notice.) But would he not have passed anyone saying, "Bye, good luck out there" or "Why on earth are you quitting?" or the like? I guess Lalli really *does* work alone!
BTW, you accidentally double-posted. You can delete the earlier (non-quoting) post if you like.
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On page 79 http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=79 (http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=79) in the little 'twelve hours ago' panel, Tuuri asks Lalli if he's still going out to work, like she wasn't expecting him to be - so maybe he wasn't supposed to, but did anyway.
This sort of ties in to how he didn't really know what was going on, or that he was leaving, especially since he wasn't taking Tuuri seriously anyway. (See: "I thought it was one of those weird jokes you sometimes tell me that I don't understand")
Of course it's also possible that he did actually have to work that last shift, I just thought it might be worth considering.
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Or he may have just forgotten. Just get up and do what you do every day because that is what you do.
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I've just realised, Lalli found Tuuri's note to meet the expedition boat as he came home from his shift. *What* shift? He'd resigned, why was he out on night patrol anyway?
It seems that he doesn't have many contacts in Keuruu and doesn't really communicate with other people. And I don't feel that information about someone resigning spreads widely under these circumstances (though Tuuri may have been chatting about it a lot). And if someone did in fact find out, why would they be bothered to question a person they had never really talked to before? Or maybe seeing a scout heading off to his shift after hearing that he had left his duties, the witness may just think: "Oh well, maybe he decided to stay after all".
I just think nobody cared enough to fix their thoughts on the matter. And Lalli himself didn't believe Tuuri was serious.
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Or he may have just forgotten.
Precisely, see dialogue on page 74 (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=74).
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On page 79 http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=79 (http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=79) in the little 'twelve hours ago' panel, Tuuri asks Lalli if he's still going out to work, like she wasn't expecting him to be - so maybe he wasn't supposed to, but did anyway.
This sort of ties in to how he didn't really know what was going on, or that he was leaving, especially since he wasn't taking Tuuri seriously anyway. (See: "I thought it was one of those weird jokes you sometimes tell me that I don't understand")
Of course it's also possible that he did actually have to work that last shift, I just thought it might be worth considering.
While they're standing at the dock, Tuuri is telling Taru that Lalli's shift "should have ended" at half past six. Meaning she is either EXPECTING him to be working his last shift (as someone said above, giving two weeks' notice and all) or she doesn't know where he is, but she is guessing he might be at work, in which case, his shift would've ended at that time.
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Thanks for the heads-up on the double-post, Sunflower!
While they're standing at the dock, Tuuri is telling Taru that Lalli's shift "should have ended" at half past six. Meaning she is either EXPECTING him to be working his last shift (as someone said above, giving two weeks' notice and all) or she doesn't know where he is, but she is guessing he might be at work, in which case, his shift would've ended at that time.
That makes sense. But, he did say he'd left his uniform at the guard house - if he'd only just done that, than he'd wouldn't have forgotten about the rendezvous. Ah, well, I think we may have to chalk this one up more to artistic licence and less to Lalli, no?
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I'm still not sure about the relationships between Lalli and Onni. The way he said, "you just HAD to show up" at the docks just before they left could be read in different ways, namely:
1. Onni thinks that if Lalli hadn't shown up, Tuuri wouldn't leave.
2. Onni isn't terribly fond of Lalli in the first place and his presence just made the whole "Tuuri leaving" situation worse.
I know one line of dialogue isn't a lot to go on, but it's something hat continues to puzzle me. Presumably Onni cares about both of them on some level, but maybe not Lalli as much as Tuuri? That might also explain Lalli's lack of mage training - Finnish mages are trained by other mages, and Onni is probably the closest person to Lalli who is also a mage. Them having a rocky relationship (Onni doesn't strike me as a terribly patient person) would certainly contribute to that.
What if both sets of parents were lost in a trading expedition to one of the islands that were crossed off. What if Lalli's parents convinced Tuuri and Onni's parents to come with them since Onni was old enough to watch out for the other two. And Onni holds a resentment to Lalli's parents that spills over onto Lalli.
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There are many reasons for this with one just being he doesn't like how non chalantly he seems to react to things while Onni is more serious. I hope Minna does some relations building after they manage to get out of their mission.
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From page 251, speculation about Lalli's thought processes:
Lady of Birbs
"Why is he hugging me? oh god someone ?????? ???? ??" -Lalli
Hrolfr_2
Why is he hugging me?
Why is she looking at the watch?
What are they talking about?
Why is she walking away like that?
Why has everyone lost interest in the Grossling?
Can we GO yet?
Is there a Plan?
What's that noise?
What's with the old books anyway?
I Wonder what the story about the dead guy on the floor is?
Can we go somewhere warm and quiet where I can have a nap?
Why did Tuuri drag me along for this, again? Why am I here for this?
Where's my rifle gotten?
Why is no one curious about the book on the table, it seems odd.
Do we stay here, or go, where are we going?
What's with Emil being so nervous and fake?
...And I forgot one, he's Finnish:
Why are these people talking so much and so loud. Are they on drugs?
-Lalli, just the previous 30 secs
Blacky
Lallicat wonders why Emilhuman is touching him. XD
Rosepieces
"What are you doing? This is not petting time..." -Lalli
Helenatroy
Lalli is really NOT used to people touching him, is he? He winces every time. :(
Aggeliki
Well, it wasn't the gentlest of touches. If I was in his place, I'd need a lot of concentration NOT to wince.
Ann Marie
I really wonder what he's thinking. "Why did crazy lady squish me together with messy Swede? And then smirk like that? Does she want us to make out now? D: Somebody help me!"
eta: and yes, I still ship them, but as obviously as Emil is crushing on Lalli, Lalli's emotional state is, um, less accessible. Who knows what's really going on in there.
DaiJB
I think it's a recent thing....lately, everytime someone gets near him, he gets hit...
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I just had a thought regarding Lalli's "kitty-blast" attack he used in the dreamworld on Page 212 (http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=212).
What if he only has a limited number of uses of this attack? Say, *9* uses? It's a very cat-like number, yes?
If so, it would in itself explain why he was so worried after he got out and to his starting dream. (Not that seeing a strange mage and being attacked by horrors weren't enough reason to be worried!)
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Thanks for the heads-up on the double-post, Sunflower!
That makes sense. But, he did say he'd left his uniform at the guard house - if he'd only just done that, than he'd wouldn't have forgotten about the rendezvous. Ah, well, I think we may have to chalk this one up more to artistic licence and less to Lalli, no?
Remember first he thought he was fired and then Tuuri reminded him that they had resigned together. What do you bet that splitting his time between the dreamworld and the real one leaves him disoriented. Onni is his cousin and an experienced mage, yet Lalli seems to know only the very basics. Why hasn't Onni been training him? Over protective? Or is their some harsh feelings going back to their parents dieing?
I am adding some comments here that I posted on page 272. The question was: Why is Lalli so sad?
I don't know.... his parents died when he was about 10 years old..... his big cousin Onni seems to disapprove of everything and seems not to like the sight of him (at the pier)..... though Tuuri loves him she doesn't understand him at all..... no one except Onni really understands what it is like being a mage and he doesn't seem to have been instructing him at all (is their something wrong with me?).... he never gets a solid night's sleep and sleep deprivation is a major component in depression...... he fights monsters in his dreams, the monsters in the closet are real.... everyone is loud and brash and hitting him...
I suspect that Lalli may have survived a troll attack on his and Tuuri and Onni's parents. I believe the parents of the cousins still operated their great grandfather's boat and traded with the other islands. Only one trip they didn't make it back. Maybe Tuuri and Onni were have been left behind and weren't on the boat but Lalli was. Because sleeping under beds and tables is a PTSD (post-tramatic stress disorder) type reaction. He may have survived by following the titles admonition to Stay Still, Stay Silent. But as I think about it I bet Onni was on the boat too. He and Lalli and they survived when the parents didn't. Tuuri didn't go on the journey because of an academic test or because she isn't immune. Onni and Lalli survive possibly because Onni discovers that he is a mage and instinctively lashes out at the trolls but it is too late for the parents. Onni is able to get himself and Lalli back to their village and he moves them right afterward.
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Very interesting theory. I was massively overworked a few years ago (average 15-20 hours of sleep/week, constant work otherwise), and did slip into mild depression (eventually followed by a nervous breakdown), so that makes sense. I was very Lalliesque during that period as well (permanently drowsy, socially remote, unable to think about anything for long periods of time). If you had that recipe, extended it over years (thankfully, my stress was kept to 10 week terms), and threw in PTSD, the result would not be a normal person.
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Well i guess some people really don't. This reddit page is either going to make you laugh or blow your mind. For me it did them bouth.
http://np.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2qjohv/what_did_your_parents_show_you_to_do_that_you/cn6pn30
Now THAT's a crazy conspiracy theory. I am impressed. ;D
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(also posted in Disqus, sorry about double-ups)
Speculation: Lalli didn't get a good look at the running Braidy in the spirit world, and was too busy being attacked to see him stop and call out. I wonder whether Lalli believes Braidy is a metaphor, a spirit apparition and not an actual person, and was trying to come back to puzzle out what such an apparition could mean. Dream interpretation is an important mage-skill, and Lalli may be melancholy over his failure to grasp the nature of the lesson the vision was guiding him toward.
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(also posted in Disqus, sorry about double-ups)
Speculation: Lalli didn't get a good look at the running Braidy in the spirit world, and was too busy being attacked to see him stop and call out. I wonder whether Lalli believes Braidy is a metaphor, a spirit apparition and not an actual person, and was trying to come back to puzzle out what such an apparition could mean. Dream interpretation is an important mage-skill, and Lalli may be melancholy over his failure to grasp the nature of the lesson the vision was guiding him toward.
No, don't apologize! I LOVE it when people preserve their insights in the Forum! It's (marginally) easier to retrieve and discuss them here than in the thousands-high stacks on Disqus.
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(also posted in Disqus, sorry about double-ups)
Speculation: Lalli didn't get a good look at the running Braidy in the spirit world, and was too busy being attacked to see him stop and call out. I wonder whether Lalli believes Braidy is a metaphor, a spirit apparition and not an actual person, and was trying to come back to puzzle out what such an apparition could mean. Dream interpretation is an important mage-skill, and Lalli may be melancholy over his failure to grasp the nature of the lesson the vision was guiding him toward.
Someone proposed in Discus that Lalli now thinks that since Braidy didn't respond to his call, he was killed/lost in the dream world. (He may well be lost... Or can't recognize a dream call or doesn't know how to go there again). So if that's true, Lalli entered the dream world to help Braidy.
Aaand for the first time I wonder if Lalli and Tuuri's parents were mages and got lost in the dream world.
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It does make you wonder what would happen if you "died" in the dreamworld. :-\
Would you simply never wake up or would something else happen?
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It does make you wonder what would happen if you "died" in the dreamworld. :-\
Would you simply never wake up or would something else happen?
Being attacked in the dream world seems to warrant fierce resistance, so it's probably not simply a matter of being woken up. Something bad will most likely happen.
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I'd see it as a matrix-esque moment ? Or he becomes a veggie...
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I'd see it as a matrix-esque moment ?
I never watched that movie. What does it mean? Is he sent to the penalty zone?
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I never watched that movie. What does it mean? Is he sent to the penalty zone?
I think Ufo meant that if you die in the Mageverse, you die in real life.
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...or, at least, your mind is SEVERELY damaged..
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It could induce a comatose-like state? The victim would still technically be alive, but would never wake up.
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...or, at least, your mind is SEVERELY damaged..
It could induce a comatose-like state? The victim would still technically be alive, but would never wake up.
What exactly the consequences are is pretty much guesswork at this point, but it would be strange if something physical happened to your body located in the real world so it's reasonable that the damage would be mental of some level of severity.
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What exactly the consequences are is pretty much guesswork at this point, but it would be strange if something physical happened to your body located in the real world so it's reasonable that the damage would be mental of some level of severity.
It could easily be the death of your conscious mind - non-physical and still dangerous enough to warrant being careful/fighting back HARD instead of just waiting to "die" and wake up in the real world. Your body keeps on going on, at least for a time, but there's no one home.
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It could easily be the death of your conscious mind - non-physical and still dangerous enough to warrant being careful/fighting back HARD instead of just waiting to "die" and wake up in the real world. Your body keeps on going on, at least for a time, but there's no one home.
Reminds me of the three souls thing in Finnish mythology. Maybe it's possible to lose one of them in the dreamworld?
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Reminds me of the three souls thing in Finnish mythology. Maybe it's possible to lose one of them in the dreamworld?
Well, two of the three officially can go astray (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_paganism#Soul) even without any out-of-the-ordinary circumstances ...
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This makes me think dementor's kiss. Brrhhh let's hope no one dies in the dreamscape!
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I had a thought about Lalli's behaviour on page 290 (actually, it more-or-less relates to how Lalli behaves all the time) that people thought made sense, so I'll post it here:
Someone said Lalli hiding under the blanket and staring at Reynir on that page was so catlike as to be unbelievable. It might look like it's a tiny bit strange, but Lalli is not just a poorly socialized individual, he also grew up around cats, who probably were his "colleagues" in a deeper sense than other night scouts were. As a night scout, you are given a chunk of land to patrol, your routes are not likely to overlap with those of other scouts, but cats - those go where they please, and might well keep scouts company. Presumably, there were cats around even when Lalli was younger, given how much people rely on them in that world (and given Lalli is clearly an introvert, he'd prefer their company to most people's). Now, if you spend a lot of time with an animal of another species, behaviour rubs off...I've spent more time interacting with cats than I did with humans between ages 3 and 10, and I do have a lot of cat-like moments even now as an adult. Actually, thinking about this made me realise that I stretch waaay too much in not-terribly-appropriate moments (like conferences, teehee, to which I go a lot, because I am a grad student). I like curling up (my neck doesn't, but somehow I wake up to find myself in cat-posture every day, go figure), look at unfamiliar objects the way Lalli looked at Reynir, and my body language is kind of cat-like in general, I've been told. I don't really think it is, actually, but people keep saying "oh, you're catlike". Sure, whatever.
So, on that page 290, it looks like it still is the day following the night Lalli spent scouting (i.e. day 2 of the trip). Lalli is tired (he's been kinda tired in a lot of panels after that troll hunt). Lalli wants to sleep. It's light outside, so he'll sleep with the bedsheets over his head. But he's also curious about the new dude, so he'll take his peak. To me, it looks so normal for someone poorly socialised who grew up around cats. If someone wakes me up, and I am in a good mood, but don't really want out of bed, I'd probably hide under the sheets and watch them vengefully for a few minutes. Because having little silly rituals like that feels pretty satisfying somehow.
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So, on that page 290, it looks like it still is the day following the night Lalli spent scouting (i.e. day 2 of the trip). Lalli is tired (he's been kinda tired in a lot of panels after that troll hunt). Lalli wants to sleep. It's light outside, so he'll sleep with the bedsheets over his head. But he's also curious about the new dude, so he'll take his peak. To me, it looks so normal for someone poorly socialised who grew up around cats.
Interesting analysis, Vixy.
The day following his night shift was the one where they canvassed (and torched) the community centre, and Lalli's had at least one sleep since then. I'm not sure what day this is anymore, because there's been the business with Mikkel doing laundry, the broken pot, getting a hold of the Quartet back at Øresund, getting a hold of Ása, having her organise the drop.... not really likely to be much earlier than Day 5 I reckon. Lalli may even be past the jet-lag the disrupted sleep would have entailed, bouncing back quickly as young people do.
But, back to the behaviour. I can see the circling, but would he not sit ON TOP of the bunks taking as much room as his skinny frame would allow, just subtly telling Reynir that this is all taken?
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Interesting analysis, Vixy.
The day following his night shift was the one where they canvassed (and torched) the community centre, and Lalli's had at least one sleep since then. I'm not sure what day this is anymore, because there's been the business with Mikkel doing laundry, the broken pot, getting a hold of the Quartet back at Øresund, getting a hold of Ása, having her organise the drop.... not really likely to be much earlier than Day 5 I reckon. Lalli may even be past the jet-lag the disrupted sleep would have entailed, bouncing back quickly as young people do.
But, back to the behaviour. I can see the circling, but would he not sit ON TOP of the bunks taking as much room as his skinny frame would allow, just subtly telling Reynir that this is all taken?
Thanks. Thing is...if several days have passed, how on earth did these guys not notice that they don't have any food? Was there some food besides the crates and Mikkel's cookies? Before going in to check on the crates Mikkel tried to prepare something only to notice that Tuuri's pot has holes in it - how come they didn't notice that earlier as well? That makes me a bit confused.
About the behaviour - well, it depends. If a cat's being territorial, they'd demonstrate that the territory's theirs (usually quite aggressively, actually), but most cats I've met kind of want to sit in a secure spot and watch intruders if intruders don't present a threat. They'd only be territorial to some other cats, and Reynir isn't a cat? :P
Also, that's where the analogy between Lalli and cats ends, I think...behaviour cat-like, motives human. Lalli doesn't really want to keep anyone out of "his" space at all costs because for a bunch of security/hunting/reproductive reasons that cats have, (somewhat obviously). I think Lalli wants to figure Reynir out more than anything. Curiosity, you know (which despite the proverbial killed cat remains a far more human motive for action). All that's catty about Lalli is quirky body language. Which is a lot, but y'know...he's not really a cat...
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Which is a lot, but y'know...he's not really a cat...
HOW DARE YOU.
(joking :P)
FOR SHAME!
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HOW DARE YOU.
(joking :P)
FOR SHAME!
Meow :3
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*waves hello*
One thing I thought I'd bring up is Lalli's spellcasting. He goes from very terse short statements to beautiful, lyrical chants. Some of it may be rote teaching, but from the translation threads, it's shown that his spell to the moon was crafted taking into account that he's far from his home grounds and exactly what he wants the moonlight for.
His second spell starts with an eloquent plea for clear radio air and when he doesn't get it, he adds in a threat and finally delivers a big spiritual whack strong enough that the people outside noticed.
So it's possible that some of his communication problems with people stem from the fact that he has so little day to day contact with others that most of his speech patterns are rooted in his spells. And if Onni was his tutor in spellcasting, then he probably only spent short lessons getting the necessary basics down, since Lalli is a scout and Onni won't step foot out of the gates. So it's easier for him to point out that this place 'felt wierd' to a non-mage like Tuuri than for him to give an accurate discription of what he sensed that takes 4 stanzas worth of words only for her to not grasp anything other than 'it was wierd' because she's not a mage. Not to mention speaking about a bad place that accurately may have nasty consquences. Spirits *hear* Lalli when he's chanting.
So, since Lalli is so poorly socialized, and he's a mage/scout for whom very precise language is a must, he falls back on short, terse statements or maningful glares and firm finger pointing to get his message across to people who even if they speak his language, have no idea what he's trying to say.
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*waves hello*
One thing I thought I'd bring up is Lalli's spellcasting. He goes from very terse short statements to beautiful, lyrical chants. Some of it may be rote teaching, but from the translation threads, it's shown that his spell to the moon was crafted taking into account that he's far from his home grounds and exactly what he wants the moonlight for.
His second spell starts with an eloquent plea for clear radio air and when he doesn't get it, he adds in a threat and finally delivers a big spiritual whack strong enough that the people outside noticed.
So it's possible that some of his communication problems with people stem from the fact that he has so little day to day contact with others that most of his speech patterns are rooted in his spells. And if Onni was his tutor in spellcasting, then he probably only spent short lessons getting the necessary basics down, since Lalli is a scout and Onni won't step foot out of the gates. So it's easier for him to point out that this place 'felt wierd' to a non-mage like Tuuri than for him to give an accurate discription of what he sensed that takes 4 stanzas worth of words only for her to not grasp anything other than 'it was wierd' because she's not a mage. Not to mention speaking about a bad place that accurately may have nasty consquences. Spirits *hear* Lalli when he's chanting.
So, since Lalli is so poorly socialized, and he's a mage/scout for whom very precise language is a must, he falls back on short, terse statements or maningful glares and firm finger pointing to get his message across to people who even if they speak his language, have no idea what he's trying to say.
Ahh! This! I agree soo much!
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Ahh! This! I agree soo much!
Ditto - that is some very good analysis and speculation!
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Yeah, earlier in the thread, someone mentioned that they prefer things rooted in real life versus supernatural stuff. But in my world view/experiences (and in the canon of the world SSSS is set in), supernatural things do affect stuff, even if it's more subtle than in most fantasy.
I think that as long as you have proof from the character's actions or "word of god", you can interpret a character a lot of different ways. I also think that there is some overlap where mage stuff could meet up with (possibly) autism, or just poor socialization.
I also think this is another reason Lalli is likened to cats as well. In many cultures, cats are "half through the veil" or the like and in a way, Lalli seems like that too.
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*nods* I always like things being a little bit more magical than reality. And as for Lalli's catness, since the Finnish ways say that a person has three souls, it could make sense that Lalli's third soul, the itse or personality is a cat's soul. His luonto soul drives his skills as a mage and scout.
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In many cultures, cats are "half through the veil" or the like and in a way, Lalli seems like that too.
Yeah, especially in the first few chapters when he was half-asleep and so not real aware of the real world but knew what was going on with trolls. And I agree that the line between "autistic" and "antisocial" is reeeeally fuzzy, and he could fall on either side.
OK, there's my two cents.
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Given that Lalli had no trouble recognizing Emil's distress on page 172 and responding appropriately (inosfar as he extrapolated that the state of Emil's hair was important to him, from page 127) I would hesitate to place Lalli on the spectrum. I think that the bulk of his behavior can be explained by the fact that the poor kid is the only one who does not speak some Scandinavian language. Having found myself several times in situations where I was the only non-bilingual member of a group, I can sympathize---the poor kid's probably a lot more miserable and homesick than he lets on. He is obviously sleep-deprived (even more so considering he has to be both the night and day scout) and his personality strikes me as very easy-going and reserved, which would emphasize his lack of social experience, making him seen more 'antisocial' than he is.
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Given that Lalli had no trouble recognizing Emil's distress on page 172 and responding appropriately (inosfar as he extrapolated that the state of Emil's hair was important to him, from page 127) I would hesitate to place Lalli on the spectrum. I think that the bulk of his behavior can be explained by the fact that the poor kid is the only one who does not speak some Scandinavian language. Having found myself several times in situations where I was the only non-bilingual member of a group, I can sympathize---the poor kid's probably a lot more miserable and homesick than he lets on. He is obviously sleep-deprived (even more so considering he has to be both the night and day scout) and his personality strikes me as very easy-going and reserved, which would emphasize his lack of social experience, making him seen more 'antisocial' than he is.
^what Random said was what I actually meant :P
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I too subscribe to the view that a lot of Lalli's quirks are associated with his lifestyle - i.e. spending the graveyard shift in the woods and not really seeing anyone aside from cats, beast/trolls, and his family - that is, Tuuri and Onni (until shown otherwise). He's kind of got his own beat going and is development will be centered about how he will slowly integrate into the group.
I work alone. I do my own thing. Scouts work alone. That's how his role - and his persona -have been defined so far. That's also probably what's going to change, too.
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I agree with a lot of the thoughts posted on this thread as well, especially with RandomTexanReader. As much as I can see why people might contemplate Lalli being autistic, a lot of his actions can be attributed to him being extremely introverted - due to his upbringing and just because that's what his personality is like -, a man of very few words, and simply left out due to being unable to communicate with anyone but his sister. One of the things which puts autism in a bit of a grey area for me is because of his interactions with Emil (mentioned by RandomTexanReader) and Tuuri; on pages 189-90 he was able to hold a perfectly normal conversation and even cracked a joke, albeit a very sarcastic one! ("What do you think Onni is doing right now?" "Crying.")
So far Lalli doesn't really seem that antisocial to me, just introverted and rather sleep deprived. His personality seems very laid back, willing to ignore snide comments to avoid conflict - he wasn't annoyed by Emil not believing in his powers and apparently trying to start a fight (pg 135), unlike Tuuri - and he is happy to forgo a sentence when a single word/shoulder shrug would suffice.
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I am not sure Lalli was being sarcastic with the crying comment. Somewhere in Minna's notes she said Onni cries a lot and would be worthless. :D (the crying comment is one of my favorite moments though)
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he wasn't annoyed by Emil not believing in his powers and apparently trying to start a fight (pg 135), unlike Tuuri - and he is happy to forgo a sentence when a single word/shoulder shrug would suffice.
He doesn't understand Swedish. Emil's insult, if it were one, fell on uncomprehending ears in Lalli's case.
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He doesn't understand Swedish. Emil's insult, if it were one, fell on uncomprehending ears in Lalli's case.
Hmmm yeah, although I think he could probably have an inkling of what was going on from Tuuri's tone when she asked him to "show Emil a little spell". I could be wrong, however :)
I am not sure Lalli was being sarcastic with the crying comment. Somewhere in Minna's notes she said Onni cries a lot and would be worthless. :D (the crying comment is one of my favorite moments though)
(Edit: Oops, I missed this reply earlier D: I didn't want to make a new post so I'm just going to add it to this one...)
Actually you're right, sarcasm was probably not the best way to describe that comment :/ It was still a rather dry Lalli-style joke, though ;)
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I tend to see Lalli as the closest thing we have to a successor to Hannu in this comic. Or at least that several personality quirks that defined Hannu live on with Lalli.
I dunno. Maybe those are Finnish things.
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I tend to see Lalli as the closest thing we have to a successor to Hannu in this comic. Or at least that several personality quirks that defined Hannu live on with Lalli.
I dunno. Maybe those are Finnish things.
I see Lalli and Emil as a kind of split of Hannu... I forget the general traits I thought that went into each though.
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One day we will hear the story of what happened to Onni, Tuuri and Lalli's parents. Then we will know why Onni is so traumatized. Onni is damaged. Crying is not always a weakness but is the only thing left to relieve the stress when really you want to do something very violent and you restrain yourself for some reason.
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Might also give hints to why Lalli is the way he is. Perhaps whatever happened caused them all to go a tad "wonky".
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One day we will hear the story of what happened to Onni, Tuuri and Lalli's parents. Then we will know why Onni is so traumatized. Onni is damaged. Crying is not always a weakness but is the only thing left to relieve the stress when really you want to do something very violent and you restrain yourself for some reason.
I dunno, the only source we have on the "Onni is crying" part is Lalli, who apparently said it in jest. He does have a dramatic history of some sort but he seems remarkably cool if anything.
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I dunno, the only source we have on the "Onni is crying" part is Lalli, who apparently said it in jest. He does have a dramatic history of some sort but he seems remarkably cool if anything.
Well, Minna post on page 72 (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=72):
Of course he can't join the main crew, he'd just be magic-blasting all the scary things into oblivion and where would the excitement be then, huh? Okay, that's a complete lie, the real reason is that he is ridiculously terrified of everything, and if he were forced to tag along he'd spend most of the time crying and being useless. True story. You'll see.
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I've searched, but failed to find it on the forum. Under the page 74 Minna gives a comment (http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=74#comment-1284503766) on Lalli's gun:
minnasundberg
He just uses his grandmother's old hunting rifle. x3
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I've searched, but failed to find it on the forum. Under the page 74 Minna gives a comment (http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=74#comment-1284503766) on Lalli's gun:
Great find, curiosity! I NEVER knew that about Lalli's gun! (It opens up speculation -- Lalli's grandmother was old enough to be alive pre-Rash? Or did she inherit it from a Rash survivor? But anyway.)
I hope one of the Wiki-crew will pick up on this nugget of lore.
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I had found that one recently too. I wonder how many steps away from the boat Hotakainens Lalli is. Sigrun is 3 steps away from Aksel and Sigrun, but Lalli could be 4 or so steps away. Depends on the age people had kids in the generations.
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I hope one of the Wiki-crew will pick up on this nugget of lore.
(The fact itself is already in the "trivia" section of Lallis page. ;) )
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I keep wondering if Minna is going to show us Lalli changing his behavior towards others as the time goes by, or if she is going to stick with the "catboy" behavior until the end. I mean, it could go both ways, since Lalli has so many quirks and manneirisms that would be quite difficult to get rid of, but, at the same time, this is the first time he is away from home and among so many strange people. This could make he go through some changes, perhaps turning him in a more sociable person.
Some old concept art that Minna posted showed Lalli and Emil working together, and Lalli was smiling, which I think demonstrates a changing of character for him. Or maybe that was before Minna had fully planned Lalli's personality?
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Well if you look at Lalli at beginning of chapter 2 and now he even looks different. He used to be a bit rounder and overall less cat-like.
I think once we start to get more intimate scenes we will see the more humane side of him rather than just the cat eyes spying on you under a blanket.t
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I think once we start to get more intimate scenes we will see the more humane side of him rather than just the cat eyes spying on you under a blanket.t
I don't know if you'd want to use that word given how many shippers there are on this forum ;)
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Oh yeah... I didn't mean that you twisted minded people! ;D
Honestly i don't see any shipping happening with Lalli, but if Minna decides otherwise all i can do is buckle up and get ready for the fan-art
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Oh yeah... I didn't mean that you twisted minded people! ;D
Honestly i don't see any shipping happening with Lalli, but if Minna decides otherwise all i can do is buckle up and get ready for the fan-art
Harbourmaster Minna has already approved a fairly open shipping lanes policy so, yeah. Report at the quartermaster's office for safety blankets, brain bleach and lifejackets if required.
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I think i will just smuggle myself in a wooden box back to the troll infested woods to avoid that.
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As if a lack of in-story shipping has ever stopped the fandom to indulge.
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Harbourmaster Minna has already approved a fairly open shipping lanes policy so, yeah. Report at the quartermaster's office for safety blankets, brain bleach and lifejackets if required.
*applauds*
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I think i will just smuggle myself in a wooden box back to the troll infested woods to avoid that.
You and me both.
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You and me both.
*gets out crowbar, pillows* (hey, crates *don't* sound comfy)
No, actually, I don't really mind that much if other people ship, I just don't myself.
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Lalli's refusing Emil's fist bump on p. 306 prompted a lot of speculation about "What is his deal, really?"
anonion
Am I the only one who's starting to be bothered by the fact that Lalli is so damn completely unreadable? Should I go with "he's literally a cat in a human body" and leave it at that? It fits, and I know many find it cute, but to me it's very unsatisfying.
The way he never talks (though he is able to), not even with Tuuri, and the way he doesn't otherwise try to communicate with the rest in any other way (except to express frustration) really make him seem... not really human.
Plus he's so passive, he doesn't seem to be motivated by anything at all. Yes, he liked the cookies enough to steal them that once, but as much as you guys liked that incident, it was minor and didn't go anywhere.
I want to like Lalli so much, and I don't generally mind "mysterious" characters. I bet he had a rough childhood (raised by cats? Nah, he dislikes cats. Raised by trolls??) and that's fine. But I want to see what's going on in his mind, damn it! :)
AmityM anonion • 19 hours ago
You already know a lot about what goes on in his mind! Think about it.
He's somewhat immature, shy, and detached, but alert, curious, sensitive, and has an intense psychic focus when he needs it.
So what is he thinking now? Probably something like, "What does this guy want with this fist thing? Whatever it is, I'm not sure I want to give it to him. I'm going to go lie down and sleep, and maybe keep an eye on that new mage pretending not to be a mage. Not necessarily in that order."
anonion AmityM • 19 hours ago
"You already know a lot about what goes on in his mind" - no, all we know is how he feels about the things he's experiencing at the moment, as you proved. That is not a lot at all, when you want to know what drives a character. It would be really interesting to know *why* he feels the way he does sometimes - like why he was not scared of the troll in the Dalahasten.
We know Tuuri and Reynir want to see the world. We know Sigrun just likes fighting, Emil wants to prove himself and get rich. We don't know much about Mikkel's motivations yet, but I'm confident we'll get there soon, and there have been hints to an interesting backstory with all the firing.
But ask yourself, why is Lalli facing mortal danger nearly every day and the answer is... because his cousin dragged him there, and he's indifferent to it. Does that feel satisfying to you?
kauniiltaunia anonion • 19 hours ago
I agree that Lalli definitely needs some more character development, but at this point all we can really do is to be patient! I get the feeling that there are a lot of plot points that Minna needs to fit into the story, and this might mean sacrificing some elements that don't immediately contribute.
As to why he wasn't affected by the troll on the Dalahasten, it may be that he has come desensitized to it. Someone who has dreams/nightmares and visions of trolls and beasts on a regular occasion would almost definitely either become 'used' to it - at the cost of some of their normal reactions and emotions - or turn into a gibbering wreck at the mere mention of something lurking in the dark (hint hint: Onni?)
anonion kauniiltaunia • 19 hours ago
Or... he *knows* he was not in danger in that particular situation, which is my preferred guess. We'll see!
Don't take my commenting as a lack of patience. I love this comic and will follow it to the end. I'll keep making endless guesses about Lalli and all other unclear things, like we all do. I would just like Minna to throw us a little bone of certainty Lalli-wise, that's all.
anonion Sols • 19 hours ago
Hm. I find Emil extremely relatable for instance, and definitely not a "single-quirk" character. Some of the rest are a bit single-quirk-ish, but they still feel satisfying as characters because of the way they react to stuff. Possibly just because they *talk*. The not talking bothers me most, I think.
Cancvas Sols • 18 hours ago
Well, at least I think Lallis behavior is perfectly normal. Finns have culture (and language) of minimalistic expression, and added to that for Lalli, he is in company of strangers who he doesn't understand and Tuuri is the cause why he is stuck where he is, so it's just better to keep up watching the situation without giving any away and see what's it's about these punchy squeezy strangers.
jp_otter anonion • 19 hours ago
My take is that Lalli's understanding of the way the world works is completely at odds with just about everyone else's. His life has always been very internalized, so social niceties don't even factor in. Kind of like how some geniuses can be really brilliant at quantum mechanics yet remain completely inept with fraternization. One might even infer that whatever presumably-recessive gene that causes maginess, might also cause some other brain effects, not unlike mild autism. But then Reynir came and so far seems to be socially "normal", which kind of blows that theory out of the water.
anonion jp_otter • 19 hours ago
Actually, that is my explanation as well, as much as I have one. While I was re-reading some of Lalli's dream sequences, I realised he seems to be as grounded in the magic/dream world as he is in "reality", if not more so. I can see how that might seriously influence his motivation and attitude towards human interaction, and I'd love to see that explored!
Laufey anonion • 18 hours ago
This is a really interesting comment, because on the contrary I think I can read Lalli suitably well and that he seems very human to me in his way of acting. I've known several people who actually are to some degree like him and his strikes me as actually quite a realistic portrayal of this type. He prefers solitude and avoids every social interaction that he can, he cannot read other people well (possibly due to never having been around people much) so their actions are either confusing, annoying or perhaps even frightening to him. Being cooped up in a small space with four-five people does probably not go well with him.
Not talking is also a completely normal state of being for a Finn, at least according to jokes and country stereotypes. Besides Lalli does communicate but only when the situation demands it, his communication pattern is strictly informative, not a social function. That said when he wants to communicate something he makes a good effort even when the other one doesn't share any language with him, like his interaction with Emil in the train shows.
In short, he's the type that you invite to your summer cottage party, show him where the fishing rods are and he'll stay somewhere out on the lake for most of the time, returning at some point with fish for everyone. Afterwards he'll think it was a great party. :D
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Kathy Megar-Kestner anonion • 19 hours ago
I think Lalli though "uneducated" in the typical sense may be on genius level. Genetically is a cousin (I am guessing a first cousin) to Tuuri an therefore shares a lot of the same genes. Tuuri is very smart but in a differing area than Lalli. I think that eventually Lalli will be a very powerful mage when he finally gets more experience. I feel that there was a disconnect between Onni and Lalli and Onni didn't do right by him and mentor him properly because of his own fears. "Everybody's a genius. But if you judge a fish by it's ability to climb a tree it will believe that it is stupid. Albert Einstein.
Róisín anonion • 16 hours ago
I don't think he 'wasn't afraid' of the Dalahasten troll. More like he's the sort of fatalist who is just going to deal with what life throws at him, and sees no point in extreme and non-productive reactions. He did manage to alert the train guards in time, after all. Screaming and panicking take time and energy that might more usefully go toward surviving.
He'll die when he has no choice, not before. Probably stolidly, and resisting every inch of the way. And long after the 'run in circles, scream and shout' types have gone down.
anonion Róisín • 16 hours ago
I don't expect him to scream and flail, that would be out of character indeed. But he could've brought his rifle or knife along, especially since he knew *exactly* what was coming. Or just... not warn the others and let them deal with the troll, if he knew it would be dangerous. He just didn't seem to be concerned at all as he went "there's a troll directly above me ripping through the thin sheet of metal that keeps it away from us. Just thought you should know".
LooNEY_DAC anonion • 11 hours ago
If you look at the Emil-Lalli close-up once Spider-Snake is in the compartment, you'll note Lalli is not unaffected by the sight. We see later that his rifle is in his baggage, which was most likely stowed away in a baggage car, even as it would be today. Probably only train staff are allowed to bear arms on the train, as it has been for quite some time.
DaiJB anonion • 9 hours ago
What? He was letting them know something was about to happen! No-one knew that a giant was ripping through the roof until Lalli pointed it out! Agnetha had the commonsense to look where he pointed, enabling them to prepare (in the limited capacity they had available) for the attack. He couldn't *tell* them - he didn't speak Swedish - he could only point. A rifle or knife would have been useless against a giant - the firepower of the train staff wasn't enough!
In short, Lalli did everything he could, as quickly as he could.
AmityM Róisín • an hour ago
Regarding Lalli and the train giant, keep in mind that he is young and not very experienced, especially in combat. I read his reaction as astonished -- he sensed what was there but couldn't quite believe what he was perceiving, and had no idea how to react.
It was the military people, drilled extensively and trained to react fast and vigorously, who knew what to do and did it. They weren't as sensitive as the mage-scout, but they were better prepared.
None of these characters are somehow ideal or perfect. There are no superheroes. The way most people learn to react fast in a fight is by having been in a lot of fights already, and lived. The ones who haven't yet are learning.
To me that's one of the strengths of Minna's characters -- not a weakness.
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AmityM anonion • an hour ago
"That is not a lot at all, when you want to know what drives a character."
Well, in my experience, most people in real life aren't driven by a short checklist of things -- even, often, the people who think that they are!
I'm glad that Lalli isn't defined as "a character who will do anything for ponies, nothing else matters," so that everyone can say, "Oh I know what Lalli will do in any moment, if it involves ponies he's going to go for it, if it involves peonies or pennies or anything else he won't care." Characters like that are, in my opinion, not so very convincing.
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wavewright62 AmityM • 19 hours ago
Perhaps he's avoiding another "why do these people keep hitting me" moment.
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Róisín AmityM • 18 hours ago
I find Lalli a very interesting character, partly because I enjoy puzzles, partly because he reminds me of several people I have known. Now the interesting thing about all of those people was that I got on fine with them because when I crossed paths with them and realised how they were I shut up, went on quietly with what I was doing, and waited for them to come to me. Which, eventually, they did. And then, with all of them, the eventual interactions were Very Worthwhile.
These otherwise wildly varied people had several things in common. Firstly, all of them had survived major traumas, often while very young - things like five years of childhood spent in hospital undergoing painful surgeries; wars; major disasters that had taken their homes and families; childhood in a concentration camp; being a forgotten prisoner of war; being a small child through the London Blitz; being an old marngit who had watched most of his tribe die...... I'm sure the general trend is apparent. Secondly, all of them were brilliant at something and had used their focus on that thing to survive suffering that would have broken most people: artist, musician and composer, writer, plant breeder, sculptor, comedian, rememberer of tradition...
Maybe that's why these people lived through their experiences and were not destroyed in spirit?
I wonder whether there is an element of understanding how such people work in Minna's characterisation?
Helenatroy Róisín • 8 hours ago
It's a good possibility that Minna knows someone like that IRL. I also think that she puts a lot of herself or her personality into Lalli (she being very introverted and making him react to people that way).
Róisín Helenatroy • 8 hours ago
I thought probably there were aspects of Minna in both Lalli and Tuuri. Both seem to me to be 'speaking' characters, though oddly enough it's the silent one rather than the chattering one who seems to me to communicate more clearly.
Aprillen Róisín • 6 hours ago
This is very insightful. And there are hints about something rather traumatic happening to Tuuri, Onni and Lalli before they relocated to Keuruu. They are orphans, for one thing.
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I read the translation of Lalli's moon runo and combined with what we DO know about him AND Finnish culture as a whole, I do think there's something driving him; we just don't know what yet.
As I understand it, runo is more of a form the spell takes (like a type of poem/song), and one could make up a runo on the fly if they have the talent for it. We know that Lalli's moon runo was at least a modification of a more common one, with the way he includes that he's in a foreign land.
And in the runo, he says he's afraid.
Now I think that is understatement, personally. He also stated he was in a scary, foreign country when Tuuri asked if he even knew where they were. He's probably low level scared for most of their journey so far. On top of that, he's sleep deprived; and yet, he goes out scouting every night, and sometimes during the day with the rest of the crew. And the only thing we have to go on for why he's there is that Tuuri made him come.
I think he probably cares very strongly for his family in his own way. He also worries about people around him in general. Not in the way a lot of people do (chatting with them, comforting them physically, etc), but he knows his job is important to the group, that if he doesn't do it or does it poorly, everyone else is likely to suffer. ESPECIALLY Tuuri.
Personally, if I were to assign a "personality type" to him, it would be INFP or maybe INFJ for the Meyers-Briggs typology, which incidentally makes him very similar to myself (INFP), but with stronger introversion.
RE: Lalli's personality might be affected by being a mage
I do lean toward this and I think that Reynir having some ABILITY as a mage doesn't automatically disprove this. Reynir hasn't been through mage training, as far as I know, and if he had been, it would have been as a Norse mage, wouldn't it? So either due to further realization of abilities itself, or the type of training Finnish mages go through, or some combination, being a mage could still affect Lalli's personality. I think we need to know more to be sure.
RE: Lalli isn't a cat because he dislikes cats
I know plenty of cats that don't like other cats, especially strange cats they haven't met before. Heck I had a cat who liked maybe 2 people and could stand me and one of my dogs, and everyone and everything else was absolutely awful in her views. So liking cats certainly isn't a prerequisite to being one.
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Given that Lalli had no trouble recognizing Emil's distress on page 172 and responding appropriately (inosfar as he extrapolated that the state of Emil's hair was important to him, from page 127) I would hesitate to place Lalli on the spectrum.
While Lalli's response is certainly funny, it isn't by any means appropriate. An appropriate reaction would be laying a hand on Emil's shoulder, hand or whatever, and/or talking to him in a calming voice (no matter whether Emil can or cannot understand the words being spoken). Thinking Emil would feel better by getting his hair tidied up is rather bizarre, because the hair is NOT the cause of his distress and --test yourself-- it wouldn't have come to YOUR mind as the proper way to ease a person's distress over something horrid that just happened in rl, or am I wrong?
More bizarre behavior: repeatedly ignoring a greeting hand (seemingly not out of intentional rudeness but because he doesn't care or know what's expected of him), stealing food instead of just asking for it (seemingly without thinking about this being a rude thing to do). Not to mention his way of dealing with things he's getting thrown into: he functions, he just deals with them, he doesn't bother with what-if's, he doesn't complain about or discuss his situation (except when getting hit repeatedly for no reason ;) -- but then again, he's letting Emil drag him around like a doll--would you tolerate this? Another example: instead of asking Tuuri to ask Reynir some questions for him in order to investigate why he met Reynir in dream-space, where he comes from, what he wants there and so on, he chooses to frown at him from under a blanket...
I don't read his real-world-passiveness as some sort of post-traumatic state of reatreat from the world, I read it as the way Lalli just IS. Yes, he has a solitary job, and yes, such a thing has the potential to make people socially awkward, but it doesn't seem to me that Lalli NEEDS other people around, as in: he seems to have no urge to spend time with them at all. He doesn't seem to get what they want from him most of the time or care about what they tell him or understand whether they're serious or not (see: Tuuri trying to explain her plans regarding their new job to him).
His distinct lack of basic interest in people (he doesn't even chat with Tuuri, who he knows well and seems to care about him a lot) is a very unusual trait among humans, and combined with the tons of odd behavior he shows, I wouldn't write it off as him being "just" an introvert. Or sleepy. Or due to culture.
His motives are likely very different from those of the rest of the crew, like: he's motivated by things as getting somewhere safe and dry in order to sleep or getting more tasty cookies (instead of being motivated by stuff like getting rich of having an adventure or seeing foreign countries). To me it seems as if he "just" wants to live his life in peace.
I really like him, not only because his behavior causes many funny situations in the comic, but because I enjoy these quiet moments when we get a glimpse at his personal world, like that cookie-stealing scene. I think it's nice to experience things from his unique perspective.
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His distinct lack of basic interest in people (he doesn't even chat with Tuuri, who he knows well and seems to care about him a lot) is a very unusual trait among humans, and combined with the tons of odd behavior he shows, I wouldn't write it off as him being "just" an introvert. Or sleepy. Or due to culture.
But... how do we know that they don't talk? The thing is, comics is a very static medium. You can't depict everything that's going on at any given moment, otherwise the page will get very crowded and hard to follow. And just because we don't see something happening (tuuri and lalli talking somewhere off-panel) doesn't mean it's not actually happening.
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But... how do we know that they don't talk? The thing is, comics is a very static medium. You can't depict everything that's going on at any given moment, otherwise the page will get very crowded and hard to follow. And just because we don't see something happening (tuuri and lalli talking somewhere off-panel) doesn't mean it's not actually happening.
You are totally right of course--I didn't consider this, just assumed so by the things we DID see.
[But then again, what isn't depicted or hinted at in the comic really doesn't exist, so... ;]
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It's a fact though that some Finns can stay silent for a long time and that silence has nothing negative behind it. I'm a chatty person but I sometimes phase out too, especially in the right surroundings. It's proven that me and my little brother can exist a whole day in almost total silence if we're at the summer cabin, we once went through a day saying only "morning", "caught any fish?" and "yeah", possibly also "night" but I'm not entirely sure of the last one. :D It's mostly him being the super quiet type but I can be a bit similar f.ex. when having a walk or working on something that I like working with. Talking to me while I'm enameling is pretty useless, I won't even hear half of it and the rest of the time I'll do my all so I would be left alone. :P
This is naturally not true about every single Finn but it does happen a lot, often enough that most other Finns understand that it's a thing and won't feel upset if they come across a really quiet one, some people just are a bit Lalli like that. My guess is that Tuuri and Lalli probably do exchange a few words while we don't see it but that they're probably not having long talks for the fun of it. Even when we do see them talk they're barely communicating... like when Lalli refuses to board Dalahästen Tuuri doesn't once ask him why, it's as if she knows there won't be an answer anyway. "This is not the time to be throwing a fit about nothing!" Something tells me Tuuri's quite used to Lalli-silence. :D
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If we have Tuuri as the sort of... "chatty Finn" and Lalli as the stereotypical "silent Finn", I wonder where Onni falls? We've seen so little of him that it's hard to tell... but something tells me he'd either be somewhere in the middle or closer to Tuuri.
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If we have Tuuri as the sort of... "chatty Finn" and Lalli as the stereotypical "silent Finn", I wonder where Onni falls? We've seen so little of him that it's hard to tell... but something tells me he'd either be somewhere in the middle or closer to Tuuri.
Sad Finn?
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Sad Finn?
I actually made a bwHAH sound at that and had to explain myself to the innocent bystanders. Yes, Onni confirmed for Sad Finn. ;D
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While Lalli's response is certainly funny, it isn't by any means appropriate. An appropriate reaction would be laying a hand on Emil's shoulder, hand or whatever, and/or talking to him in a calming voice (no matter whether Emil can or cannot understand the words being spoken). Thinking Emil would feel better by getting his hair tidied up is rather bizarre, because the hair is NOT the cause of his distress and --test yourself-- it wouldn't have come to YOUR mind as the proper way to ease a person's distress over something horrid that just happened in rl, or am I wrong?
More bizarre behavior: repeatedly ignoring a greeting hand (seemingly not out of intentional rudeness but because he doesn't care or know what's expected of him), stealing food instead of just asking for it (seemingly without thinking about this being a rude thing to do). Not to mention his way of dealing with things he's getting thrown into: he functions, he just deals with them, he doesn't bother with what-if's, he doesn't complain about or discuss his situation (except when getting hit repeatedly for no reason ;) -- but then again, he's letting Emil drag him around like a doll--would you tolerate this? Another example: instead of asking Tuuri to ask Reynir some questions for him in order to investigate why he met Reynir in dream-space, where he comes from, what he wants there and so on, he chooses to frown at him from under a blanket...
I don't read his real-world-passiveness as some sort of post-traumatic state of reatreat from the world, I read it as the way Lalli just IS. Yes, he has a solitary job, and yes, such a thing has the potential to make people socially awkward, but it doesn't seem to me that Lalli NEEDS other people around, as in: he seems to have no urge to spend time with them at all. He doesn't seem to get what they want from him most of the time or care about what they tell him or understand whether they're serious or not (see: Tuuri trying to explain her plans regarding their new job to him).
His distinct lack of basic interest in people (he doesn't even chat with Tuuri, who he knows well and seems to care about him a lot) is a very unusual trait among humans, and combined with the tons of odd behavior he shows, I wouldn't write it off as him being "just" an introvert. Or sleepy. Or due to culture.
His motives are likely very different from those of the rest of the crew, like: he's motivated by things as getting somewhere safe and dry in order to sleep or getting more tasty cookies (instead of being motivated by stuff like getting rich of having an adventure or seeing foreign countries). To me it seems as if he "just" wants to live his life in peace.
I really like him, not only because his behavior causes many funny situations in the comic, but because I enjoy these quiet moments when we get a glimpse at his personal world, like that cookie-stealing scene. I think it's nice to experience things from his unique perspective.
It is not an instinctive reaction, I agree. Which is why it's so interesting that he does it... he extrapolated that Emil cares about the state of hair from way back when Emil smoothed Lalli's hair down. I think he really was doing what he thought was appropriate in the situation, which is indicative of normal empathy levels, given that he wasn't unsettled at all and probably felt like Emil was making a big deal over nothing. Is it normal? No. The important thing is that it indicates Lalli has the capacity to recognize distress, the desire to alleviate it, and the ability to decide upon a course of action given previous interactions. The fact that it was not a typical (appropriate is disputable) response is irrelevant: the processes needed to lead to the response are very typical.
The allowing himself to be manhandled is very much a personality thing too. It's true that I don't allow myself to be dragged around (I'm 5'9" and well over 200 lbs (175.3 cm and 90.7 kilos) so nobody tries) but my eight-year-old brother doesn't blink when he's tossed about like a rag doll, and my petite 5'2" (157 cm) cousin can't manage to keep her feet on the ground when she's around taller family members, which she's fine with. Also consider that Tuuri's solution to a Lalli tantrum is to have him carried wherever he doesn't want to go, and then you've got learned behavior added into the equation: he's probably been being manhandled by his older cousins since he was born.
As far as the stealing food goes, I think that may be a survival tactic. Consider what happened when we first see him offered food by Emil--Tuuri shuts it down with, "Lalli doesn't like anything." WOW, Tuuri. No wonder your cousin's so skinny. :p I think it probable he is a picky eater, but it can't really help matters when your ONLY INTERPRETER doesn't think you're hungry. Also the fact that he's been on a military base since he was what, thirteen? Not a whole lot of options if you're a picky eater with a funky schedule. If rationing was ever a thing, Lalli (going through his ravenous teenage years) would have totally gotten used to stealing food. Also remember that when people don't get enough sleep they need more food, and simultaneously have less energy to go through the 'proper' method of obtaining more of it. (In Lalli's case, getting his cousin, asking her to translate (risking the possibility that she might scold him for being greedy and refuse) and then relying on Mikkel to give him maybe one more cookie instead of just taking the initiative, so to speak, with a close to 100% chance of ending up with all of the cookies)
And Lalli's not just sleepy: he's sleep-deprived. When my uncle was working both a night job and a day job, he started having full-blown hallucinations, and constantly seemed like he was on drugs. I start having auditory hallucinations after eighteen hours without sleep, as in hearing entire conversations in the distance and magnificent (but imaginary) choirs. The human body was not meant to go without sleep, nor was it meant to be nocturnal: it's hardly any wonder that Lalli's a bit of an oddball, personality aside.
Tuuri's and Lalli's dynamic reminds me a lot of me with my neurotypical, but extremely introverted, cousin. (His older brother is extremely extroverted and has a Social Learning Disorder, which is an interesting combination. And yes, I have slapped them both) The thing is, although I spend a lot of time with him, I don't talk much with my introverted cousin. We've known each other for long enough that we can read each other pretty well, know each other's opinions on pretty much everything, and don't really need to chat with each other other than pointing stuff out or communicating information. Our conversations mainly consist of half-finished sentences, interruptions, vague references, and the odd quotation. I suspect that this is also what's going on when Lalli's doing the debriefing..."This is weird, that felt funny...." familiarity doesn't always mean chattiness, sometimes quite the opposite.
And as for ignoring the greeting hand, I noticed that none of the Fins shook hands with each other in the beginning... it would make sense that, in an area where outbreaks are still a very real threat, the custom of toUCHING STRAngE PeOPLE as a greeting ritual would be quickly phased out. Which then makes it really cute when Tuuri's excitedly shaking Emil's hand because she's displaying her knowledge of Swedish culture. <3
Again, as far as the theory of Lalli's being on the spectrum goes, I can only say that somebody who was inclined to sensory overload and/or had trouble prioritizing details would be an extremely poor scout.
It's not just introversion, sleep-deprivation, and cultural differences: it's all three of those put together. If you were to put me on a messed up sleeping schedule and thrust me into a foreign environment where I can only understand one person, I'd probably bite somebody.
I agree that Lalli approaches things differently from the others, arriving at different conclusions for appropriate/inappropriate behavior than he should, and I'm not disputing that, just that there's nothing fundamentally atypical about his processing mechanisms. I agree that he is very much his very own special Lallicat personality, and that's why we love him. :)
And WELCOME TO THE FORUM!!! get out now while you still can :p
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It is not an instinctive reaction, I agree. Which is why it's so interesting that he does it... he extrapolated that Emil cares about the state of hair from way back when Emil smoothed Lalli's hair down. I think he really was doing what he thought was appropriate in the situation, which is indicative of normal empathy levels
Yes, Lalli thought it to be appropriate--and that's the thing: an empathic reaction would have required a deeper, linked-to-the-situation understanding where Emil's distress is coming from (namely, his troll experience a few minutes ago) AND to understand what's likely to make the person feel better in the situation (=appropriate). To NOT understand this very obvious connection is a sign that Lalli's not really well versed in theory of mind (elaborately theorizing what's going on in other people's heads and basing your own reactions on that--a thing neurotypicals do on an automatic level, whereas people on the autistic spectrum CAN learn it, but it seems to remain a laborous thing to do, see for example descriptions by Tempel Grandin on the matter).
However, lacking that understanding doesn't make him indifferent to Emil's distress. Uta Frith describes this as "instinctive sympathy": perceiving a person to be sad=>do something to cheer them up, regardless whether this is an appropriate thing to do given the situation/the reason they are sad. So yes, Lalli remembered that Emil cares a lot about his hair, but he wrongly assumed fixing it would brighten Emil's mood due to poor theory of mind.
(and yes, although people on the spectrum have more or less difficulties with perceiving emotional states of others, they CAN decipher at least some or intense ones--also, they seemingly tend to get better with that when growing older and more experienced with how neurotypicals express themselves)
The allowing himself to be manhandled is very much a personality thing too
Granded. However, these things in isolation are not what I base my argumentation upon, I base it upon the fact that Lalli seemingly doesn't get how people "work", and all the other examples of unusual behavior I named just fit in the picture of him not being neurotypical imo.
As far as the stealing food goes, I think that may be a survival tactic. [...] If rationing was ever a thing, Lalli (going through his ravenous teenage years) would have totally gotten used to stealing food. Also remember that when people don't get enough sleep they need more food, and simultaneously have less energy to go through the 'proper' method of obtaining more of it. (In Lalli's case, getting his cousin, asking her to translate (risking the possibility that she might scold him for being greedy and refuse) and then relying on Mikkel to give him maybe one more cookie instead of just taking the initiative, so to speak, with a close to 100% chance of ending up with all of the cookies)
See, the thought processes you just described: it feels to me like Lalli wouldn't have them. He just takes the food because he's hungry. He doesn't think about asking because who holds ownership over the food isn't part of his thought process, nor does he think for a second about how the others may feel about his thievery. Which is either rude and antisocial, or, and I think that's the case, people getting upset by his actions is simply not part of his way of thinking. Same with things like politeness--it doesn't seem to me as if he disregards these things out of deliberate rudeness or as a calculated way to make things easier for him.
Which doesn't mean he couldn't learn to read people better or to be polite, mind you.
Tuuri's and Lalli's dynamic reminds me a lot of me with my neurotypical, but extremely introverted, cousin. [...] Our conversations mainly consist of half-finished sentences, interruptions, vague references, and the odd quotation. I suspect that this is also what's going on when Lalli's doing the debriefing..."This is weird, that felt funny...." familiarity doesn't always mean chattiness, sometimes quite the opposite.
Absolutely!
But the question is: if you'd show your cousin the comic and tell him that Emil really cares about his hair and then show your cousin what happened to Emil on the train and THEN ask him why Emil's distressed and what's likely to make him feel better in the situation--would he think tidying up Emil's hair would do the job?
Again, as far as the theory of Lalli's being on the spectrum goes, I can only say that somebody who was inclined to sensory overload and/or had trouble prioritizing details would be an extremely poor scout.
Not everyone on the autistic spectrum has sensory overload issues. Also, sensory overload issues seem to come in many different forms (for example: loud explosions all around aren't a bother, but the feeling of the clothes one wears drive one crazy, or the sound a specific pen makes on paper).
Concerning the eye for details instead of the bigger picture: on the contrary, I'd think being able to notice tiny differences in your environment would HELP you in your scouting and alert you of danger way ahead of your collegues!
It's not just introversion, sleep-deprivation, and cultural differences: it's all three of those put together.
Ooor it could be his personality, which strikes me as a personality of someone who's likely on the spectrum. ;) I guess time (and Minna) will tell!
And WELCOME TO THE FORUM!!! get out now while you still can :p
THANK YOU!!! =] (also thanks for the good advice, but I think it's too late for that already /o\)
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I think I'm leaning towards Lalli being really introverted rather than on the autistic spectrum...
So, about the handshaking. As RTR said, handshakes are probably not a thing people do anymore in Finland due to the risk of spreading the Rash. Also, it tends to be only strangers who shake hands and in a close community like Keuruu, it must be a rare thing for someone to do if handshakes still exist.
Another possibility is that Lalli does know what a handshake is but refuses to do it. I've noticed in school that some people delight in making introverts uncomfortable. There was a phase where people kept asking me for high-fives and fist bumps and it got to the stage where I just ignore it unless I know that they're not trying to mock me. That could be what Lalli's doing?
Also, Emil's hair. I agree that it's a pretty strange thing to do in that situation however, he's probably never had to calm someone down like that because everyone he's worked with until now is a professional. But stroking a child's hair is a common way to calm them down so he's probably just struggling for what to do and comes up with a bit of a rubbish solution. I think you should also keep in mind that Lalli's only known Emil for a few hours, doesn't speak the same language as him and will only have a vague idea of his personality. If that were me, I'd just flounder and decide he'd be fine in a few minutes. I feel uncomfortable trying to comfort my friends and I'm not on the spectrum. It's possible that he does have a deep emotional empathy but his personality is distancing him from a response.
As other people have said, if you stick introversion, sleep deprivation and confusion together, you don't have someone that will think entirely rationally but I'm not sure that can explain Lalli's cookie stealing... Maybe we should also remember that the comic is meant to be entertaining and Lalli's frequently used as comic relief so he's bound to behave a bit strangely sometimes, like how Tuuri was mean to the kids and got stroppy at Mikkel but I'd say she's generally very cheerful and friendly.
But I totally agree that this is just speculation and could all be wrong if/when we get answers.
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I do think the hair thing was a bit of comic relief. Also, after Lalli had the disturbing experience of being cleansed and shuffled around in a weird place with people speaking a language he couldn't understand (first time out of a place people spoke Finnish), Emil socially groomed him by patting down his hair. So, Emil has a disorienting and scary experience... and Lalli socially grooms him.
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I do think the hair thing was a bit of comic relief.
But wouldn't it be REALLY elegant story-telling if what we read as comic relief were just secondarily comic relief and primarily things the characters would actually do in a given situation? =]
Also, after Lalli had the disturbing experience of being cleansed and shuffled around in a weird place with people speaking a language he couldn't understand (first time out of a place people spoke Finnish), Emil socially groomed him by patting down his hair. So, Emil has a disorienting and scary experience... and Lalli socially grooms him.
I'm aware it's no far stretch for Lalli to come to the conclusion that grooming Emil would be a great idea--that doesn't invalidate my Lalli-lacks-in-the-theory-of-mind-department argumentation, though.
[Keep in mind that a)Emil didn't necessarily groom Lalli in order to make him feel better and b)even if he did: the situation back then would have made it an actually plausible thing to do, like "oh no, what have they done to you, jostling poor you around like that" *tidies hair up* "there you go, no harm done, everything back to normal" -- whereas "oh no, you almost died and look kinda horrified" *tidies hair up* "there, don't you feel better already?" doesn't make THAT much sense, empathy-wise.
Emil couldn't have judged the magnitude of scaryness of the cleansing-process for someone like Lalli since he barely knew him back then, whereas most non-jerk neurotypical people wouldn't assume that someone they barely know is helped by smushing their hair after they had just been in an objectively life-threatening situation and lie before them WEARING THAT FACIAL EXPRESSION Emil wore.]
Transferring the grooming behavior observed in a whole different situation [where it can be considered acceptable and fairly promising behavior] to THIS [post-life-threatening] situation [where the same action is not promising* and comes accross as gross insensitivity] is just what someone on the spectrum would be likely to do given no-one told them that this isn't an acceptable thing to do.
Actually, these "it is okay to do XY in situation A, but not okay to do the exactly same thing in situation B" rules are a great and ongoing source of massive frustration for people on the spectrum, or so I have read from self-reports of people being on the spectrum]
*Not promising when confronted with a stranger. I don't deny that something humorous can be the right course of action in order to actually make some people feel better after a life-threatening situation that very visibly got to them a lot, but a)doesn't seem to me as if Lalli was trying to do something funny and b)to know that somebody would likely be made feel better by doing something silly like smushing their hair after an life-threatening event that clearly got to them requires lots of familarity with a person.
[Have I mentioned that exceptions to rules have the potential to frustrate people on the spectrum a *tad* more than neurotypicals?]
Anyway, of course anyone can read into the characters what they want, but I, personally, am more than ready to read Lalli as being on the spectrum until proven otherwise because I agree with the opinion of somebody I sadly can't identify on short notice but posted somwhere in this very thread: it'd be nice if Lalli were autistic because autistic people don't get that much representation in media. Also, it's nice to learn about different ways of thinking by means of a well-told story. Introvert? Been there, done that. Autistic? Not so much, so... more interesting because of more new things to be learned.
It's not at all a far stretch to read him as such (up to this point), hence I'll just carry on--just as you'll carry on to read im as being "just" introvert, and both is just fine. :]
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Anyway, of course anyone can read into the characters what they want, but I, personally, am more than ready to read Lalli as being on the spectrum until proven otherwise because I agree with the opinion of somebody I sadly can't identify on short notice but posted somwhere in this very thread: it'd be nice if Lalli were autistic because autistic people don't get that much representation in media. Also, it's nice to learn about different ways of thinking by means of a well-told story. Introvert? Been there, done that. Autistic? Not so much, so... more interesting because of more new things to be learned.
It's not at all a far stretch to read him as such (up to this point), hence I'll just carry on--just as you'll carry on to read im as being "just" introvert, and both is just fine. :]
It would be really interesting if Lalli actually was in the spectrum, and now we've seen how he interacts with his own cousin (pg 330) and how he avoids close contact (Onni knows he doesn't like being hugged, so he holds his shoulders instead) it gets more and more plausible in my head-cannon. And it would be difficult, as a relative/parent/friend, to understand what's going on with someone like Lalli in rural Saaima in Y90. I mean, how easy could it be to have a clear diagnosis when there's barely any living psychologists around? Is psychology even a thing in Y90? And given all the times I've asked myself "What the hell is wrong with Lalli?"... yeah. If he was autistic, I'd congratulate Minna for accepting the dare that's writing a character with autism.
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Side-stepping the behavioural discussion a bit... I hope here is the appropriate place to say how impressed I am by Lalli map-reading skill.
P219 (http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=219) he studies the map *once*. Presumably memorizing it, as he refuses to take it with him afterwards. Then p227 (http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=227) we see him reciting blocked off or "weird" roads from memory. (That, in itself, impresses the hell out of me. It stand to reason than scouts would have extremely good visual/topographic memory, but I'm not sure reconnaissance in foreign places can be compared to patrolling around the base one has lived on for years.) Anyway, the thing that impresses me the most (and kind of bugs me a bit) is not the memorizing, it's the map-reading itself.
"Do you even know where we are?
— I know where we are.
— Where?
— In a weird, scary foreign country."
Tuuri implies that Lalli has not made his understanding of their position clear (and his answer to that is one of my favorite lines of the whole comic, because it rings so true and so deadpan at the same time), and Sigrun comment a few panels previously, about lines being roads, seems to implies that all scouts are not versed in map-reading (unless she's joking, but I don't think so). But the way Lalli reports what he saw clearly demonstrates that he actually knows were the cat-tank is situated and identifies the roads to their targets using only (mostly?) the terrain he saw. Now, the kind of map I guestimate (from p219) the crew uses are probably 1/50 000 or /25 000 military-type maps, which show the differences in height and the terrain pretty well... if you learn how to read them. From my experience, it's an acquired skill (very useful to hikers, geographs, and military) that does take a bit of practice. And seeing Lalli doing it so competently, while I love it, kind of clashes with the "minimal education" idea I had of him previously. Unless Finns scouts are better-educated than norwegian scouts in that specific area? Or maybe Sigrun was just being snide ?
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Side-stepping the behavioural discussion a bit... I hope here is the appropriate place to say how impressed I am by Lalli map-reading skill.
P219 (http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=219) he studies the map *once*. Presumably memorizing it, as he refuses to take it with him afterwards. Then p227 (http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=227) we see him reciting blocked off or "weird" roads from memory. (That, in itself, impresses the hell out of me. It stand to reason than scouts would have extremely good visual/topographic memory, but I'm not sure reconnaissance in foreign places can be compared to patrolling around the base one has lived on for years.) Anyway, the thing that impresses me the most (and kind of bugs me a bit) is not the memorizing, it's the map-reading itself.
"Do you even know where we are?
— I know where we are.
— Where?
— In a weird, scary foreign country."
Tuuri implies that Lalli has not made his understanding of their position clear (and his answer to that is one of my favorite lines of the whole comic, because it rings so true and so deadpan at the same time), and Sigrun comment a few panels previously, about lines being roads, seems to implies that all scouts are not versed in map-reading (unless she's joking, but I don't think so). But the way Lalli reports what he saw clearly demonstrates that he actually knows were the cat-tank is situated and identifies the roads to their targets using only (mostly?) the terrain he saw. Now, the kind of map I guestimate (from p219) the crew uses are probably 1/50 000 or /25 000 military-type maps, which show the differences in height and the terrain pretty well... if you learn how to read them. From my experience, it's an acquired skill (very useful to hikers, geographs, and military) that does take a bit of practice. And seeing Lalli doing it so competently, while I love it, kind of clashes with the "minimal education" idea I had of him previously. Unless Finns scouts are better-educated than norwegian scouts in that specific area? Or maybe Sigrun was just being snide ?
I am betting that Lalli has photographic memory. I was trained in the Army to read the maps and I was exceptional at orienteering (the art of being giving the coordinates and finding the way to the stake driven in the ground). Even though I was good I would not have been able to go without the map in a new place from just about 10 - 30 minutes of studying it. It takes perfect memory to do what he did.
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Now, the kind of map I guestimate (from p219) the crew uses are probably 1/50 000 or /25 000 military-type maps, which show the differences in height and the terrain pretty well
We get to see a glimpse of the map as Tuuri marks up Lallis findings (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=227). It looks way more like a city map (streets and buildings) than a topographic one.
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We get to see a glimpse of the map as Tuuri marks up Lallis findings (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=227). It looks way more like a city map (streets and buildings) than a topographic one.
Yes, you're right. It looks different from the one p219, though, which seems a lot less structured and has some vaguely round shapes more evocative of topography than of roads (imho). Maybe they have both ? Actually, what we see p227 seems rather detailed for a city map, it reminds me of cadastral plans... which makes sens considering the aim of salvaging books. But how did this type of document end up in the "safe" world?
I am betting that Lalli has photographic memory. I was trained in the Army to read the maps and I was exceptional at orienteering (the art of being giving the coordinates and finding the way to the stake driven in the ground). Even though I was good I would not have been able to go without the map in a new place from just about 10 - 30 minutes of studying it. It takes perfect memory to do what he did.
Thank you for your input ! Photographic memory definitely makes sense.
Lalli is all about hidden strengths, isn't he?
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Yes, you're right. It looks different from the one p219, though, which seems a lot less structured and has some vaguely round shapes more evocative of topography than of roads (imho). Maybe they have both ? Actually, what we see p227 seems rather detailed for a city map, it reminds me of cadastral plans... which makes sens considering the aim of salvaging books. But how did this type of document end up in the "safe" world?
They're supposedly working with post-Rash intel, and the obvious source of that would be to siphon from what the Danes collected to prepare their reclamation attempt ten years earlier. Even if they didn't have current maps as they entered Amager, they would quite likely have drawn new ones to collate whatever intel the returning soldiers reported ...
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They're supposedly working with post-Rash intel, and the obvious source of that would be to siphon from what the Danes collected to prepare their reclamation attempt ten years earlier. Even if they didn't have current maps as they entered Amager, they would quite likely have drawn new ones to collate whatever intel the returning soldiers reported ...
Yeees... but. Mikkel's comment http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=230 (http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=230) "We're the first humans venturing this far since the dawn of time" implies that the soldiers didn't actually get this far.
(We're digressing from Lalli here. Is there a topic on intel sources we could move this discussion to?)
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Mikkel's comment http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=230 (http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=230) "We're the first humans venturing this far since the dawn of time" implies that the soldiers didn't actually get this far.
He's replying to Tuuri, who specifically asked about the reclamation attempt, i.e., the terrain they actually controlled. There's actual proof (http://sssscomic.wikia.com/wiki/Amager_%C3%98st#The_Supply_Dock) that special operations did go beyond that.
(We're digressing from Lalli here. Is there a topic on intel sources we could move this discussion to?)
... not that I remember offhand ...
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I did a little archive crawl
Here you go.
https://ssssforum.com/index.php?topic=174.0 -Military from the New World
https://ssssforum.com/index.php?topic=230.0 -Salvage from the Silent World
https://ssssforum.com/index.php?topic=82.0 -Tiny Details Detection
https://ssssforum.com/index.php?topic=441.0 -Use of Swords in Y90 (people just started talking about any kind of weaponry)
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I did a little archive crawl
Oh, thank you !
*happily settles to read*
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This chapter certainly has had a lot of character development for Lalli. New people, new experiences, new/old things to be afraid of, and his responses to them. And in his last scene with Emil, the first tentative shoulderbump overture of friendship? We get more insight into his nature, and how he fits into his world. Very interested to see where this goes.
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All I can say is that I look forward to the next chapter (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=364). Yessss.....
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All I can say is that I look forward to the next chapter (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=364). Yessss.....
*squawks* YES I'D LIKE TO KNOW MORE ABOUT THIS INCREDIBLY INSCRUTABLE CHARACTER
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So far I find Lalli the most interesting character. I suspect we have only seen the edges of a complex and fascinating being. The character has depth, I think. He seems to be nervous and easily scared (I suppose a scout who wasn't like that wouldn't last a day), yet he does a job that entails going into danger on his own every night. He lacks education yet seems to be scarily bright. He's obviously devout (otherwise his style of magic wouldn't work) but acts like a bit of a fatalist. And he seems lonely, yet avoids contact. A puzzle.
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Well. For lack of a better place to discuss developments as they unfold - I have something for consideration:
Is Lalli making a kantele or a ritual in the latest update? Not that these two things are mutually exclusive.
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I also thought he might be making a kantele. It wouldn't be the first time one has been made of a jawbone, as in Kalevala, Väinämöinen himself made his kantele out of the jaws of a giant pike.
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Wait, what is a kantele? A ritualised slaughter of a dead animal to invoke some sort of magic?
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Wait, what is a kantele? A ritualised slaughter of a dead animal to invoke some sort of magic?
Kantele as such is just a traditional Finnish music instrument, but the one people are referring to is Väinämöinen's kantele (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cVfhAImS0L8/UMW2QxftpkI/AAAAAAAAAD0/6r-qpkcNT8o/s1600/untitled.png); he made his out of a jawbone of a huge pike and it had magical abilities (playing it Väinämöinen could cause earth quakes, volcanic eruptions etc.). Väinämöinen had magical abilities himself as well though, at least I'm thinking that the time when he sang Joukahainen sinking into ground he only used his voice... so my take is that the kantele he made just enhanced them.
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Body parts as magical instruments turns up in many shamanic traditions. In my Western Celtic tradition it's usually a harp or similar musical instrument made from skull or ribs or breastbone, often strung with hair. Though it can also be a bone flute or whistle, or a skin drum. In the New Guinea highlands it can be a drum or a rattle, or again a bone flute. It turns up in a lot of the old ballads, in the Celtic countries.
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Is Lalli making a kantele or a ritual in the latest update? Not that these two things are mutually exclusive.
For me it was a ritual, buuuuuuut...
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Oooh, I hadn't thought of making a kantele. That would be interesting. I was wondering initially if the soul guiding would be something like the bear hunt traditions, but today's page changed my thoughts about that.
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Oooh, I hadn't thought of making a kantele. That would be interesting. I was wondering initially if the soul guiding would be something like the bear hunt traditions, but today's page changed my thoughts about that.
Yes, I had also expected it to be something akin to karhunpeijaiset (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peijaiset).
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Either the bear ceremony or the kantele one are possible, but in the circumstances it may be something quite different, since both of those require an untainted animal. I wonder what adaptations the Rash has forced onto Finnish traditional magic?
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I remember reading about a slightly different version of the bear hunt ritual.
The hunt would take place at winter, when the bear was hibernating. The hunting party would slay the bear, and although they would consume the meat, the skeleton would not be harmed (even though bone marrow are one of the most nutritionally dense foods available in a snowy winter, so this was a great sacrifice). The skeleton would then be cleaned and brought back to the burrow where the bear had hibernated, and then put together again (the vertebrae placed in order on the ground, every bone in its right place, ect.).
This ritual was to make the bear 'come alive' again, so that it could be hunted anew. My guess is that Lalli is doing something similar - cleansing it from the troll stain so that its soul can be healthy again and move on or something.
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I am also getting a cleansing vibe from the whole thing. I do believe it is stated that it's the job of mages to guide those corrupted to find their way to the afterlife or something like that.
Though one has to wonder how often they actually take time to sit down and actually complete such a task.
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Body parts as magical instruments turns up in many shamanic traditions. In my Western Celtic tradition it's usually a harp or similar musical instrument made from skull or ribs or breastbone, often strung with hair.
Though it can also be a bone flute or whistle, or a skin drum. In the New Guinea highlands it can be a drum or a rattle, or again a bone flute. It turns up in a lot of the old ballads, in the Celtic countries.
Ooh, like the song "The Bonny Swans"! (Version by Loreena McKennitt.) The girl who is murdered gets turned into a harp by a passing bard (don't inquire too closely into the process :o) and the harp announces the murderer's name.
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I remember reading about a slightly different version of the bear hunt ritual.
Ooh, okay. That version would make sense. The one I had read about has the head mounted on a pine but didn't mention what would happen to the rest of the bear.
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Body parts as magical instruments turns up in many shamanic traditions. In my Western Celtic tradition it's usually a harp or similar musical instrument made from skull or ribs or breastbone, often strung with hair. Though it can also be a bone flute or whistle, or a skin drum. In the New Guinea highlands it can be a drum or a rattle, or again a bone flute. It turns up in a lot of the old ballads, in the Celtic countries.
Oooooh, that skull harp sounds very interesting. Do you have any sources on that? I would love to keep reading bout it, but a quick google yielded very little.. I am having some difficulties imagining how such a harp would be put together tbh.
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You could start with the Child ballads ( nothing to do with children, but the name of the collector). They should be online. Look up ballads like 'Binnorie' and 'The Twa Sisters'. Child usually groups together songs with similar origins, or developed from the same original song, so that should lead you to others.
Another site to try is Mudcat Cafe, mudcat.org. which also collects folksongs. I'd post links, but that is a magic I am far from mastering! I have enough trouble with the internet in general.
Kalevala has the account of Väinämöinen making his kantele. Margaret Hodges did an article 'The Haunted Harp'. 'The Singing Bone' is in Grimm's Fairy Tales, though the instrument there is a pipe or horn. Claire Booss wrote a book 'Murder Will Out' which has a section on Scandinavian folk and fairy tales, as well as the Scottish ones from which 'Binnorie' comes.
The place to search further might be anthropology and the development of early instruments rather than music alone.
Edit: sometimes the old tales use 'harp' for something we'd think of as more like an original kantele or lyre, with strings stretched across a skull or along a bone.
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Interesting question-without-answer by a friend : if Lalli really made a big mistake (alone in responsibility or not, we don't have enough information now) as a young night scout, how explaining he's still a night scout today ?
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Interesting question-without-answer by a friend : if Lalli really made a big mistake (alone in responsibility or not, we don't have enough information now) as a young night scout, how explaining he's still a night scout today ?
Possibly because he was so young? I don't know that I'd ban a 13-year-old from a job forever, even if he were at fault. I'd expect him to go through some major retraining, though, and it explains his reaction to failure in Y90.
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Interesting question-without-answer by a friend : if Lalli really made a big mistake (alone in responsibility or not, we don't have enough information now) as a young night scout, how explaining he's still a night scout today ?
We don't know what the minimum age for Finland's military is, but since it's 13 for the Cleansers, we can assume it's similar? (If Lalli is 13 and he's already scouting, it's either that or younger). It could be that they're so short on people that they're willing to keep him on because they need the numbers.
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We don't know what the minimum age for Finland's military is, but since it's 13 for the Cleansers, we can assume it's similar? (If Lalli is 13 and he's already scouting, it's either that or younger). It could be that they're so short on people that they're willing to keep him on because they need the numbers.
If we assume that, then we can take into account the way Finnish mages are trained: they have an older mage train them. It would help a lot to know whether a scout also has to be a mage by default, but if so, that would mean that Lalli wasn't night-scouting alone but with a senior mage.
I'm just saying I hope Onni doesn't decide to shoulder the responsibility.
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I'm just saying I hope Onni doesn't decide to shoulder the responsibility.
Actually we spoke about that point too before agreeing on the fact Lalli's name must be on the sheet, so it would be difficult for Onni to blame himself for a night scout's work.
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If we assume that, then we can take into account the way Finnish mages are trained: they have an older mage train them. It would help a lot to know whether a scout also has to be a mage by default, but if so, that would mean that Lalli wasn't night-scouting alone but with a senior mage.
I'm just saying I hope Onni doesn't decide to shoulder the responsibility.
Well, that may explain Onni's absense from this page - he's not a scout or a skald, just a mage, so he has no busines being there (though he may come running later). I think Mages are mages and scouts are scouts, and you can be both but you don't have to be :)
Given Onni's paralyzing fear of the silent world, I highly doubt he'd volunteer for scout duty
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just discovered Minna's response on the topic of Lalli and autism:
page 383
I've decided to leave the reasons behind most of Lalli's "peculiar" behaviour patterns up for everyone's personal interpretation rather than put a label on him one way or the other (it's not like he'd ever be diagnosed with anything in the comic), but I'm really glad to hear you've enjoyed his characterization. ^_^
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From the Disqus comments to p. 397:
amrothsirfalas • 3 days ago
Quite something for someone "having very little training in being a mage". Lalli should update his LinkedIn portfolio. Or he might end up like certain doc, doing those lame contracts in the middle of his 30s ;)
random Jessica K. • 3 days ago
Maybe 'very little training' is meant in contrast to those who are full-time mages (who'd be goddamn powerhouses if THIS is what a little-trained mage can do). Lalli's primary job is night scouting, so even if his knowledge isn't negligible, in comparison to someone entirely dedicated to practising magic he still wouldn't have that much magical training. I do wonder if whoever trained him as a scout was also a mage, of if he had to piece both scouting and magic together by himself; I can definitely imagine Onni teaching him all kinds of defensive spells for increasing his chances at survival in such a dangerous job.
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LooNEY_DAC random • 3 days ago
I can imagine Lalli huffily ignoring more or less anything Onni tried to teach him for some time after The Flashback, in a "he thinks I can't do my job better than anyone else already" mindset.
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random LooNEY_DAC • 3 days ago
True, that, and very fitting! But I like to imagine Onni's fretting over his little cousin when he first starts going solo on his missions. Because I enjoy suffering like that.
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Does the lack of training perhaps indicate lack of control rather than a lack of power?
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Does the lack of training perhaps indicate lack of control rather than a lack of power?
Depends i guess,
If the power would be something one can muster from ones inside then the nosebleed could be the indication of the lack of training while the spell would remain just as powerlful, but just a bit more uncontrollable.
On the other hand the spells could be something taught and learned by anyone eager enough and then the formal training would be the most important bit.
I think in SSSS the powers of a mage are determined by their natural ability and as such Lalli can pull off far grander stunts than others, but is in more of risk of selfharm or misfire because he can't fully control his abilities. I think everyone could in theory learn magic, but someone like Emil would most likely have a hard time casting even the tiniest of sparks.
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I think in SSSS the powers of a mage are determined by their natural ability and as such Lalli can pull off far grander stunts than others, but is in more of risk of selfharm or misfire because he can't fully control his abilities. I think everyone could in theory learn magic, but someone like Emil would most likely have a hard time casting even the tiniest of sparks.
Agreeing with this... it looks like a mage's talent-level is one thing but skill-level quite another, which would tie with the traditional idea as well. Untrained, you can have all the talent in the world but it's not going to be very useful whereas training makes even a little talent somewhat useful. To compare, a mage with great talent but little training would stand no chance against a mage with mediocre talent but good training.
As a good example of an untrained mage we have Reynir barging into people's safe-spaces in the dreaming. He can technically speaking do some mage-stuff but he doesn't know how to use the talent or what to use it for.
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I think you both have good points. In many systems of our-world magic an untrained major natural ability is considered a hindrance rather than useful, because the untrained klutz can go stumbling through the working spaces of others, unwittingly breaking delicate structures, or messing up the fine energy flows of natural strongplaces, or worst of all , calling to themselves something really dangerous without intending to do so. I see no reason why things should be different in the Minnaverse.
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So, Lalli needs to use his words more, and Emil needs to learn that suffocation is not acceptable sign language. Hm, now I'm envisioning a Swedish/Finnish/sign language only those two can understand...
Yes. So much yes.
Although this brings up an interesting question. Lalli currently can only communicate with Turri. I believe Minna has said that she's planning on doing this for a while, so presumably Lalli is going to find some form of communication with the others. I'm not really sure how language learning works on the road, though.
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Yes. So much yes.
Although this brings up an interesting question. Lalli currently can only communicate with Turri. I believe Minna has said that she's planning on doing this for a while, so presumably Lalli is going to find some form of communication with the others. I'm not really sure how language learning works on the road, though.
Well, we know that Lalli and Reynir can talk in the Mage Chat Room, so that's one method. And I'd be amazed if Lalli and Emil both weren't trying to learn some Icelandic, given that's a common language among the rest of the crew. (Except for Purrito, of course)
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I would expect at least Lalli and Emil to work out something: a Finnish/Swedish/military sign language pidgin seems most likely. How he would do with Reynir I'm less sure. But they need to do something, and that soon. Based on my own experience of travelling with people with whom I initially had little language in common, one picks it up surprisingly fast, in our case starting with terms such as 'passport', 'car key', 'toilet' and 'aaarrgh they drive on the other side of the road in this country watch where you're going'! I'm sure the team will encounter their own problems!
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I definitely agree that Lalli will probably find some way to communicate with the others, especially Emil, whether it be nonverbal, a mis-mash of languages, or whatever. When my family went up to Bangladesh for a few weeks, my siblings (who didn't speak a word of Bengali) somehow worked out a system with my cousins (who didn't speak a word of English) to the point where I couldn't even understand what they were doing.
And something I haven't seen anything about is that, Lalli is very hard on himself about his mistakes, but it looks like Onni was the one who actively encouraged him to think like that. In the flashback, Lalli is obviously bothered by his mistake, but I'm a bit unsure as to whether he actually feels guilty about his mistake, or if he's worried about what Onni will say to him afterward. He gets very defensive about it, so he's definitely not so apathetic about the whole thing.
If he really feels bad, then Onni is making his guilt even worse and pushing him further into a mindset of perfectionism, which usually ends in two ways: eventually not caring enough to give effort into anything, or working yourself up to a nervous breakdown/otherwise destroying yourself by trying too hard, and it always causes a great deal of stress. And if he was raised with this mindset, I definitely see it causing huge problems for him during this mission.
If he's just trying to stave off Onni's scolding, then he's being pushed into a mindset of perfectionism anyway, but with the added bonus of not finding anything all that rewarding in doing things right. This goes more with the "do whatever others tell him to do" thing that's going on, and I think it would foster more irritation than stress.
What's interesting to me, though, is that while Onni and Tuuri get very hung up about Lalli's mistakes, the officers at the Keuruu base don't seem to care much at all once the error is unambiguously brought to light. I think this goes with the situations that led the three of them away from Saimaa, as well as whatever trauma resulted in them being orphans.
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You may well be right. I think Tuuri might do better if she approached it more as "We do have a problem here, any suggestions, Lalli?" rather than screaming at him and driving him even further back into his own head. Lalli strikes me as the type who would be quite hard enough on himself already, and quite enough of a perfectionist, without having it reinforced.
I'd read him as a bright, reclusive, sensitive kid who takes pride in what he can do, but because of that very sensitivity is easily thrown off balance. And if some of the fans are correct and he really is somewhere on the autism spectrum (not that he would be diagnosed in-world), that problem would be enhanced.
In real life, I've found the best approach to people like Lalli when they are distressed is to speak quietly, project an ocean of calmness, and give them a little time to get it together. Which, left to themselves, they will generally do.
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I would expect at least Lalli and Emil to work out something: a Finnish/Swedish/military sign language pidgin seems most likely. How he would do with Reynir I'm less sure. But they need to do something, and that soon. Based on my own experience of travelling with people with whom I initially had little language in common, one picks it up surprisingly fast, in our case starting with terms such as 'passport', 'car key', 'toilet' and 'aaarrgh they drive on the other side of the road in this country watch where you're going'! I'm sure the team will encounter their own problems!
I would not be entirely surprised to see Lalli and Reynir, probably in much later chapters when they're a bit more used to each other's presence, using their time in the dreamworld to hash out a primitive sign language that they can then use in the waking world in lieu of words. I imagine the process would probably have to be mediated by Onni, though, as I don't see Lalli being all that eager to extend a line of dialogue to the guy who keeps invading his sanctuary!
As for Emil and Lalli, I can imagine them building something similar, although it would me much slower going (or perhaps not, if Lalli's more enthusiastic about 'talking' to Emil than Reynir?) without the aid of magic.
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Another factor is that, to judge by his mapping, Lalli may have an eidetic memory. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he has picked up more language than the others think, and just isn't speaking. I've watched enough kids with good memories pick up languages to know that once they have a few dozen nouns it can just cascade.
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Another factor is that, to judge by his mapping, Lalli may have an eidetic memory. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he has picked up more language than the others think, and just isn't speaking. I've watched enough kids with good memories pick up languages to know that once they have a few dozen nouns it can just cascade.
I'd think that mapping skills and memory would be a requirement for scouts. (Especially night scouts. They can't really rely on landmarks)
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Though I think Lalli may be unusual in not carrying a map. Remember early on, Tuuri is trying to give him a map, and he says that he doesn't carry maps? I thought at the time that that was unusual, but given his scouting style, which seems to be somewhere between marathon and broken-field running, I can quite see why. He'd have to remember a lot, though.
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Another factor is that, to judge by his mapping, Lalli may have an eidetic memory. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he has picked up more language than the others think, and just isn't speaking. I've watched enough kids with good memories pick up languages to know that once they have a few dozen nouns it can just cascade.
I don't see Minna using the socially awkward (possibly autistic) person has eidetic memory cliche. He probably just has a good memory and a really good sense of direction.
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He would need both the excellent sense of direction and a pretty good memory to scout at all, I think. Guess we'll just have to wait and see how Minna writes him. Eidetic memory can exist without autism, in otherwise completely neurotypical people. But maybe it's a cliche because it's a thing that happens?
And I've never been quite sure, with Lalli, just how much of his character is the way it is because he's a mage and presumeably is aware of both the physical and subtle worlds all the time? That has got to be distracting, having two sets of input going at once. Add to that his isolating night job. That one is bad enough for people with ordinary night jobs (I've worked enough of those to know how that goes - either you only socialise with other night people, or the day people expect you to stay up when you would normally be asleep so you aren't much company, or you do things alone). And that was just ordinary jobs, not constantly perilous ones.
Further add a naturally introverted character and a life which may already have included surviving very traumatic events and the loss of his family, and the lack of what we would think of as a formal education, and I think that's a reasonable explanation for Lalli. With some degree of autism or without.
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He would need both the excellent sense of direction and a pretty good memory to scout at all, I think. Guess we'll just have to wait and see how Minna writes him. Eidetic memory can exist without autism, in otherwise completely neurotypical people. But maybe it's a cliche because it's a thing that happens?
And I've never been quite sure, with Lalli, just how much of his character is the way it is because he's a mage and presumeably is aware of both the physical and subtle worlds all the time? That has got to be distracting, having two sets of input going at once. Add to that his isolating night job. That one is bad enough for people with ordinary night jobs (I've worked enough of those to know how that goes - either you only socialise with other night people, or the day people expect you to stay up when you would normally be asleep so you aren't much company, or you do things alone). And that was just ordinary jobs, not constantly perilous ones.
Further add a naturally introverted character and a life which may already have included surviving very traumatic events and the loss of his family, and the lack of what we would think of as a formal education, and I think that's a reasonable explanation for Lalli. With some degree of autism or without.
Of course, he may well have been chosen as a night scout because of those trait. It's a bit of a chicken and egg. Scouts are probably mostly loners anyway, and they'd need to have a good spatial sense and memory because, seriously, if you're scouting at night you're almost certainly not going to stop to mark up a map. It's going to be *dark* in the Y90 world!
The mage bit about having extra inputs is interesting though. It's not something I'd considered.
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Yeah, I think there would definitely have to be a 'scout mindset' that was a prerequisite for the job. As for many jobs in our world! Like someone who designs to be a teacher needs to be cheerful, patient and like kids, or a surgeon needs to be innately meticulous and not squeamish, or the mining explosives guy needs to be a fanatic about precision.
In the year 90 world I expect that showing a light at night while you marked up your map, and having your attention on the map instead of on what was sneaking up behind you might be the last mistake a scout ever made!
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In the year 90 world I expect that showing a light at night while you marked up your map, and having your attention on the map instead of on what was sneaking up behind you might be the last mistake a scout ever made!
Exactly. Pay attention to where you are, stay silent when you're standing still or not, note where you were after you have the luxury of relaxing.
Also probably finding a good place to hide yourself when the dawn comes.
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I haven't been participating on the forum for several reasons, and a big one was that this thread here was the one I most wanted to read and have fun in. But I also very strongly suspected that it would upset me to no end... See, my son is autistic. Very high intelligence, quite severe autism. Since I'd read in the comments that people had been discussing on the forum the possibility of Lalli being autistic, I was horribly afraid I'd find upsetting things. I was right :(
Autism is a radically over-diagnosed condition. A cousin of mine is "autistic" but is clear as day just an introvert who doesn't want to argue with the doctor (or her family). A therapist discussed it (overdiagnosis in general, not that particular case) at Salon:
http://www.salon.com/2013/09/21/thats_not_autism_its_simply_a_brainy_introverted_boy/ (http://www.salon.com/2013/09/21/thats_not_autism_its_simply_a_brainy_introverted_boy/)
Huh. HUH. I'll be frank: that article is a steaming pile of horse manure. The boy described in it is so CLEARLY autistic, it's not even funny. The REAL problem here is not the oh-so-horrible-and-limiting label of "autism" being imposed on the kid; it's the article author's opinion that autism is such a *horrible and limiting* label to begin with! His level of ignorance about what autism IS, and HOW it manifests, is truly horrifying for someone pretending to correct people's misconceptions about autism O.o So yeah, please don't base your "knowledge" of autism on that article, because it's so, so, SO wrong about autism that it's shameful it was published in the first place.
If you expect someone to behave in an autistic way and reward them for doing so you will gradually nudge them into a fascimile of the disorder without any actual disorder being extant.
Nonsense. A kid can't fake being autistic. That's beyond ridiculous; it's offensive. You can fake specific autistic behaviours, but you can't fake BEING autistic - or at least not without it taking the same kind of EXTREME toll on your mind and body that faking NOT being autistic takes on autistic people.
*takes deep breath to calm down*
Personally: do I think Lalli is autistic? I wasn't sure for most of my reading, even though each new development, no matter how big or small, pointed to it. And then he outright shut down when Tuuri bullied him too much ( http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=383 ), and Tuuri's comment clearly implied it was a reaction he had often enough when he was overwhelmed, and I went, "Yep, autistic freakout all right."
That said, I don't care whether people think Lalli is autistic or not. Minna herself has said that she wants people to be free to interpret him however they want, and the least I can do is respect her wishes! I *do*, however, care very much about which arguments are used to counter the possibility that he's autistic. Like for example:
It is not an instinctive reaction, I agree. Which is why it's so interesting that he does it... he extrapolated that Emil cares about the state of hair from way back when Emil smoothed Lalli's hair down. I think he really was doing what he thought was appropriate in the situation, which is indicative of normal empathy levels, given that he wasn't unsettled at all and probably felt like Emil was making a big deal over nothing. Is it normal? No. The important thing is that it indicates Lalli has the capacity to recognize distress, the desire to alleviate it, and the ability to decide upon a course of action given previous interactions. The fact that it was not a typical (appropriate is disputable) response is irrelevant: the processes needed to lead to the response are very typical.
I'm not sure I understand this correctly, but it sounds like you're saying that simply having those processes, and that level of empathy, are enough to deny the possibility of autism? In which case: no, absolutely not. Autistic people possess those processes just like most other human beings (it's psychopaths and narcissists* who lack one of them, namely "the desire to alleviate distress"), and if anything, they tend to be *more* empathetic than neurotypical people. The problem is that they often don't know how or when to properly use those processes, and even more importantly: they often have much bigger troubles obtaining the data to input into those processes in the first place, because this part depends on using social skills which neurotypical people learn naturally as they develop, but autistic people don't. Simply put, this means that an autistic person might very well not recognise that (for example) you're feeling down from the subtle behavioural clues you're giving off, but if/once they do become aware of it, they WILL care, and they WILL want to help - but they might have no idea how to do that if they don't know you well enough, or they might do it in a way that looks crazy/stupid/inappropriate/offensive to you.
* Autism is pretty much the antithesis of psychopathy, and I can't help but get hurt when people attribute psychopathic traits to autism :/
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A couple other unrelated comments:
Correct. And there's a very thin line between narcissism and psychopathy. The most recent DSM threw out those terms altogether (I believe), replacing them with the much more sensible "antisocial personality disorder" *is studying psychology as a Year 12 elective subject*.
No, it doesn't. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is still its own thing in the DSM 5. And it's been a LONG time since "psychopathy" has been 'replaced' by Antisocial Personality Disorder; that's absolutely not something new in the DSM 5. Oh, and no, there isn't a "very thin line" between narcissism and psychopathy: the two have major overlapping elements, that much is true, but they also have major differences.
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But... how do we know that they don't talk? The thing is, comics is a very static medium. You can't depict everything that's going on at any given moment, otherwise the page will get very crowded and hard to follow. And just because we don't see something happening (tuuri and lalli talking somewhere off-panel) doesn't mean it's not actually happening.
We know for sure now, since Tuuri herself told us: http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=374 . Minna even comments: "Tuuri has nothing to worry about here, she may not have noticed but Emil's been making sure Lalli has gotten all the socializing he needs this last week. He's probably all set for the next year or so on that front." From the sound of it, and even though I guess Minna was joking a bit, it sounds like Lalli got extremely little socialising back in Keuruu *even from his cousins*, if Emil's socialising is supposed to be so much more than he's used to :(
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Aliax, you said a lot of things that I'd been meaning to. I like this thread and talking about Lalli's character development, but also I'm waffling on the edge of Asperger's and it's sort of awkward to read about behaviors that both Lalli and I do, like the hands-on-ears moment with Tuuri and hiding under tables, stated as response to trauma. Not that I've got anything against trauma survivors, but I've seen these behaviors in a person without related backstory and it makes sense that that's just how his brain is.
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it's sort of awkward to read about behaviors that both Lalli and I do, like the hands-on-ears moment with Tuuri and hiding under tables, stated as response to trauma.
I hear you! My son does similar things, and in his case, it has nothing whatsoever to do with trauma, so, yeah, awkward.
And then of course, there's the fact that autism and trauma are not mutually exclusive. I might just be such a case: I definitely have Complex-PTSD thanks to several types of severe childhood abuse. But funnily enough, the more I heal and eliminate my trauma-based behaviours through therapy, the LESS socially appropriate my behaviour becomes, and it was never anything close to stellar to begin with! Combined with many other observations (such as the fact that one reason my son was diagnosed pretty late even though his autism was pretty obvious was that I kept saying, "Oh, I was the same when I was his age, no big deal!"), I finally realised that duh, I'm most likely autistic too. I've got an appointment in March with a multi-disciplinary medical team specialising in screening adults for Asperger's. We'll see what they say, but if it's not autism, then they better give me a hint as to *what* on Earth it might be, because it's very real, and it can't be explained away as "childhood trauma and disastrous socialisation" anymore!
So I can totally see Lalli as "an extreme introvert with PTSD" - but that doesn't stop him from *also* being potentially autistic.
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Aliax: Exactly that. As you say, those two possible causes are not mutually exclusive. And when there are two (or more) possible causes likely to produce similar results, it can get pretty confusing. Add in the difficulties of getting a diagnosis in the first place, and the picture winds up really murky!
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Róisín: yup, and that's why I absolutely *love* Minna's answer on that topic. By refusing to tell us whether or not she deliberately writes Lalli as autistic, and yet effectively writing him as one of the best representations of high-functioning autism I've ever come across in fiction, she's preventing us from sticking him into *any* box. He's clearly a natural introvert, but he's also a Finn, and a childhood trauma survivor, and a mage, and apparently part-cat(??), and he works a solitary and night job (but then again, there's potentially a matter of chicken and egg going on there) - and on top of all that, he may or may not be autistic. This means that we simply can't reduce him to one or two of his traits: we have to take him globally. He's Lalli first, and everything else second. This is brilliant! (And it is SUCH a fresh change from most fictional autists out there, whose autism is far too often their one and only defining trait.)
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Róisín: yup, and that's why I absolutely *love* Minna's answer on that topic. By refusing to tell us whether or not she deliberately writes Lalli as autistic, and yet effectively writing him as one of the best representations of high-functioning autism I've ever come across in fiction, she's preventing us from sticking him into *any* box. He's clearly a natural introvert, but he's also a Finn, and a childhood trauma survivor, and a mage, and apparently part-cat(??), and he works a solitary and night job (but then again, there's potentially a matter of chicken and egg going on there) - and on top of all that, he may or may not be autistic. This means that we simply can't reduce him to one or two of his traits: we have to take him globally. He's Lalli first, and everything else second. This is brilliant! (And it is SUCH a fresh change from most fictional autists out there, whose autism is far too often their one and only defining trait.)
^^^^^^^ what aliax said
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{redacted lengthy and redundant post about personal experience of the autistic spectrum among my loved ones}
Our greatest challenge is also our greatest gift, and vice versa.
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Wavewright: I would have been interested to read what you had to say.
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Wavewright: I would have been interested to read what you had to say.
Me too
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*shrug* My daughter has been referred for testing several times now, starting from age 4, & she's now just turned 14. While she tends to test just below thresholds for Asperger's in actual testing, she has many gifts and challenges including ultra-high intelligence, anxiety and musical gifts. The upshot of this, though, is that my husband & I were struck by the incidences of high-functioning autism and Asperger's we could find in our families, particularly his. It's fairly obvious that my husband is himself Asperger's, although back in the day it was just "Lenny being weird Lenny." Even educated people were not aware of this concept in the 60s or 70s, when we were children.
It can sometimes seem like there is some kind of bandwagon or fashionability surrounding the spectrum causing the thoughtless comments that have upset Aliax so, but some of that is the bubbling up of awareness of the topic. Many people try to parse new information by relating it to themselves, hence the continuing popularity of self-analysis quizzes. Unfortunately, taking that information in that format usually leads to a flawed or downright incorrect understanding.
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Understood and agreed.
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So I can totally see Lalli as "an extreme introvert with PTSD" - but that doesn't stop him from *also* being potentially autistic.
I quite like this analysis. What I really like about Minna's depiction of Lalli is that we see his fraught exchanges with individuals, but also the intense beauty of his working magecraft. The calm, confidence and balance he shows at those times is amazing.
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Our greatest challenge is also our greatest gift, and vice versa.
Yep. In this case, at least.
It's fairly obvious that my husband is himself Asperger's, although back in the day it was just "Lenny being weird Lenny." Even educated people were not aware of this concept in the 60s or 70s, when we were children.
Even as far as the 90s and early 00s (when my son was born), I don't remember that much was talked about autism except for low-functioning autism. Granted, France is 20 years late in autism awareness/understanding compared to the rest of the world, but even on the internet, I can't remember there being the kind of low-level general awareness that there's now. For example: I was in the very early Harry Potter fandom, and we certainly discussed the possibility of various conditions affecting various characters - but I can't remember HFA or Asperger's ever being mentioned.
It can sometimes seem like there is some kind of bandwagon or fashionability surrounding the spectrum causing the thoughtless comments that have upset Aliax so, but some of that is the bubbling up of awareness of the topic.
Very well said. I totally understand that to some - especially in the younger crowd who can't remember a time when Asperger was not a common word on the internet - this "bubbling up of awareness" might look like nothing more than a fashion effect, but the truth is that there are untold numbers of adults out there who grew up being "weird", and who learned to compensate to some degree and at various prices in energy and to their self-esteem and/or social life, and who are incredibly relieved to discover that not only are they not alone in their struggles, but there's a name to describe their difference, and techniques to help with the most bothersome aspects of it. For people like me who've literally spent decades wondering, "What the heck is WRONG with me D: !?", that's a HUGE discovery to make!
Many people try to parse new information by relating it to themselves, hence the continuing popularity of self-analysis quizzes. Unfortunately, taking that information in that format usually leads to a flawed or downright incorrect understanding.
Ha, yes. Funnily enough, it *was* a self-analysis quizz which made me realise what was "wrong" with me - not by telling me "You're most likely neurodivergent" (which it did, but, well, self-analysis quizz...), but by making me realise that what I had always thought was "normal", what I had always tried to become, was in fact still very, VERY far away from what "normal" people actually consider "normal". Being neurotypical is so foreign to me, I had literally been unable to imagine it except as something extreme and abnormal. Talk about an "... Oh" moment :/ That was when I finally understood why my then-husband was so often so lost when confronted to some of our son's reactions, when to me they were so logical and easy to understand even though I'd never had them myself...
What I really like about Minna's depiction of Lalli is that we see his fraught exchanges with individuals, but also the intense beauty of his working magecraft. The calm, confidence and balance he shows at those times is amazing.
Yes! I know someone (you?) made that same reflection somewhere earlier in this thread, but I'm really struck by how much pride Lalli takes in being the best scout possible and yet *still* can't "use his words" when doing his scout reports - but when it comes to runo spells, the words just flow without a hitch. And we know he's not just reciting spells he learned by heart, either; at the very least, he's able to spontaneously adapt a previous spell to his current circumstances, as with the Moon Spell.
Even better: it took Tuuri insisting three times before he finally blurted out, "I'm tired", but he freely and easily expressed his fears and confusion to Kuutar in the Moon Spell. Or during the radio episode: he had no troubles switching from politely asking the bothering spirits to move further away, to threatening to come after them if they kept pissing him off - but when it comes to expressing his emotions to other human beings, he's still stuck with using onomatopeias and the little body language he knows to express.
The contrast is absolutely fascinating to me! I feel like Minna couldn't have made it any more obvious that being a mage is what Lalli IS, while scouting is what Lalli DOES. One is his nature, the other is his job - and I absolutely love, love, LOVE that he doesn't see himself as having any obligation to reconcile the two somehow. He could most likely be a full-time mage if he wanted to, but scouting is the job he likes, so he apparently prefers to forgo magic training in order to keep being a scout (and I can only imagine Onni's feelings about *that*).
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Ha, yes. Funnily enough, it *was* a self-analysis quizz which made me realise what was "wrong" with me - not by telling me "You're most likely neurodivergent" (which it did, but, well, self-analysis quizz...), but by making me realise that what I had always thought was "normal", what I had always tried to become, was in fact still very, VERY far away from what "normal" people actually consider "normal". Being neurotypical is so foreign to me, I had literally been unable to imagine it except as something extreme and abnormal. Talk about an "... Oh" moment :/ That was when I finally understood why my then-husband was so often so lost when confronted to some of our son's reactions, when to me they were so logical and easy to understand even though I'd never had them myself...
I've had a similar discussion with someone I've known online who's very much not NT (I'd go with high-functioning austist) and who literally cannot imagine or understand that much of the rest of the world understands body language and tone and shades of meaning. Because of my own experience with with my younger son, who's a diagnosed Aspergers (and still made Eagle (http://"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Scout_(Boy_Scouts_of_America)") -- so proud of him!), I sort of get those reactions, but not on a deep, gut level.
Lalli, though, has a lot going on and I don't think we have enough information one way or the other.
This would all make more sense if I'd had some tea or coffee this morning, but I no longer drink caffeine.
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my younger son, who's a diagnosed Aspergers (and still made Eagle (http://"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Scout_(Boy_Scouts_of_America)") -- so proud of him!),
Eeee, congratulations to him :D ! It's my understanding that this is quite an achievement for anybody?
Lalli, though, has a lot going on and I don't think we have enough information one way or the other.
Heh. As I said, I have my own opinion, based on way too many small and not-so-small details in the comic, but I totally understand if other people see it otherwise - as long as their disagreement is not based on some glaring misunderstanding of what autism is.
This would all make more sense if I'd had some tea or coffee this morning, but I no longer drink caffeine.
D: The horror D: !!
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<snip>my younger son, who's a diagnosed Aspergers (and still made Eagle (http://"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Scout_(Boy_Scouts_of_America)") -- so proud of him!), I sort of get those reactions, but not on a deep, gut level.<snip>
Wow, excellent work by your son, hearty congratulations. Does this perhaps illustrate my point that his challenge was made into a gift? May I ask what his service project was?
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Even better: it took Tuuri insisting three times before he finally blurted out, "I'm tired", but he freely and easily expressed his fears and confusion to Kuutar in the Moon Spell. Or during the radio episode: he had no troubles switching from politely asking the bothering spirits to move further away, to threatening to come after them if they kept pissing him off - but when it comes to expressing his emotions to other human beings, he's still stuck with using onomatopeias and the little body language he knows to express.
Ah yes, excellent examples!
My husband has a somewhat different problem, in that he is very outgoing and loves to talk to people, and talk, and talk, and keeps going out and out and out and never quite realises that nobody is following the thread anymore. He can't stand it when people change the subject. (He gets along quite well with me because I can follow him most of the way. We're lucky that way.) He also cannot understand viscerally what makes an introvert such as myself tick.
My husband can refute your facts because he has studied that in some depth. Yes, that one, too. Every blimmin' endeavour, he has studied it and often practiced it, in depth, since he was very small. He's a walking encyclopedia that has no restraint about correcting you where you're wrong, and can't understand why everybody assumes he's an arrogant braggart for doing so. But turn that around as a gift, in his job in a firm that works with inventors to capitalise and market their new technologies, he can talk to *every* inventor knowledgeably about their technology, and often point out unexpected uses and market avenues for it, and then write up the business case. When it comes to the more delicate part of negotiation with venture capitalists, he has to hand off to his business partner. No, he can't make bloke talk about the rugby, she does a far better job of that.
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Wow, excellent work by your son, hearty congratulations. Does this perhaps illustrate my point that his challenge was made into a gift? May I ask what his service project was?
He actually took up a cause that was near and dear to his heart, and trained groups of scouts to do presentations on autism awareness and bullying to local PTA groups, including explaining the relevant New York laws and providing resources to them. It was kind of interesting to watch, but caused some trouble at his Eagle Board -- he wasn't building anything so they weren't sure how to evaluate his project and leadership skills!
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He actually took up a cause that was near and dear to his heart, and trained groups of scouts to do presentations on autism awareness and bullying to local PTA groups, including explaining the relevant New York laws and providing resources to them. It was kind of interesting to watch, but caused some trouble at his Eagle Board -- he wasn't building anything so they weren't sure how to evaluate his project and leadership skills!
Perfect! Thank goodness his Board made the right choice, for that project deftly illustrates the values required!
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My husband has a somewhat different problem, in that he is very outgoing and loves to talk to people, and talk, and talk, and keeps going out and out and out and never quite realises that nobody is following the thread anymore.
Ouch, yeah =_= I learned not to do that the hard way (my family telling me in no uncertain terms to shut up because nobody cared what I was talking about, when I was a kid). Now I'm constantly checking myself and being unsure whether I'm doing it again or not. "Oh gods, I've been talking for more than 3 sentences! They must be getting bored! But they look interested! But maybe they are just pretending to be interested because they are polite, and they'll never want to talk to me again because they'll remember me as the person who bored them out of their skull? Aaaaah, panic, panic, panic D: !!!"
My husband can refute your facts because he has studied that in some depth. Yes, that one, too. Every blimmin' endeavour, he has studied it and often practiced it, in depth, since he was very small. He's a walking encyclopedia that has no restraint about correcting you where you're wrong, and can't understand why everybody assumes he's an arrogant braggart for doing so.
Oh yeah, I know this one too =_=
People: No, you can't possibly know that much about this, *and* this, AND this! You're just making it up to make yourself look interesting, aren't you?
Me: ... No? I just read about it in some magazine/encyclopedia/on the internet?
People: Yeah, right. Look, just shut up for once and stop being a know-it-all. Nobody likes know-it-alls.
Me: *enters Reynir Mode* I'm sorry :-[ I just wanted to help :'(
I don't even know that much D: ! There are LOADS and LOADS of stuff I know *nothing* about!
When it comes to the more delicate part of negotiation with venture capitalists, he has to hand off to his business partner. No, he can't make bloke talk about the rugby, she does a far better job of that.
I could do it if I really had to, but it would be a serious drain on my energy, *and* I'd probably look like an idiot/ignoramus to the guy, *and* the guy would get bored very quickly trying to have a social time with someone whose idea of "social time" is geeking out about ideas, concepts and possibilities. (Also, I want your husband's job :P )
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I don't even know that much D: ! There are LOADS and LOADS of stuff I know *nothing* about!
(Also, I want your husband's job :P )
That's just it, investigating all those avenues just gets us to the point where we can see what we *don't* know.
And, my husband is sort of making this job for himself, because it doesn't exist. It's been a hard slog and a huge learning curve for us; setting up a consultancy has not been easy or lucrative. This new partnership is showing promise, though, of actually becoming a steady paying gig at some point. We've been keeping going through my jobs and his sideline in lapidary work.
And that illustrates another facet of this personality - the obsessive collection of skill and experience. My daughter picked up a pretty rock one day and demanded to know what it was. They got a book from the library and my daughter (then 4yo) spent 8 hours a day for a few days finding and referencing rocks around a campsite. Fast-forward 10 years and while my daughter has moved on to other interests, my husband has assembled a full lapidary workshop (mostly broken equipment given to him, which he repaired for use) and enough knowledge and skill to be a NZ expert in making of cabochons, specialising in "pffft that's impossible to polish." His obsessive personality comes in handy for the commissions requiring precisely calibrated cabochons, sometimes in bulk, with local materials. This he does as a hobby to unwind in the evenings. Energy and obsession - I'm just glad he can harness this as a gift.
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I dunno, maybe I'm the weird one, but I think both you (Aliax) and Wavewright's husband sound like fascinating people. Then, I'm an obsessive geek about my own fields of interest, and live among several others who are obsessive geeks about their fields, and we all talk to each other, and enjoy it. And yeah, I get that thing of 'how can you possibly know so much about so many things?'. I've made a career of it.
When I was a really little kid I solemnly set out to learn everything in the world. I toiled away at this for several years. Then (I would still have been under five) one day I worked out that because of how fast new things were happening, and because so many of the old people I wanted to learn things from would die before I got to talk to them, this was an impossible task. I was devastated. I cried for a week. Then I picked myself up and decided to learn everything that it was possible to learn. I'm still at it.
So yeah, I understand what you are saying!
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I dunno, maybe I'm the weird one, but I think both you (Aliax) and Wavewright's husband sound like fascinating people. Then, I'm an obsessive geek about my own fields of interest, and live among several others who are obsessive geeks about their fields, and we all talk to each other, and enjoy it. And yeah, I get that thing of 'how can you possibly know so much about so many things?'. I've made a career of it.
^^^^This. So much this.
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My husband has a somewhat different problem, in that he is very outgoing and loves to talk to people, and talk, and talk, and keeps going out and out and out and never quite realises that nobody is following the thread anymore.
Ouch, yeah =_= I learned not to do that the hard way (my family telling me in no uncertain terms to shut up because nobody cared what I was talking about, when I was a kid). Now I'm constantly checking myself and being unsure whether I'm doing it again or not. "Oh gods, I've been talking for more than 3 sentences! They must be getting bored! But they look interested! But maybe they are just pretending to be interested because they are polite, and they'll never want to talk to me again because they'll remember me as the person who bored them out of their skull? Aaaaah, panic, panic, panic D: !!!"
My husband can refute your facts because he has studied that in some depth. Yes, that one, too. Every blimmin' endeavour, he has studied it and often practiced it, in depth, since he was very small. He's a walking encyclopedia that has no restraint about correcting you where you're wrong, and can't understand why everybody assumes he's an arrogant braggart for doing so.
Oh yeah, I know this one too =_=
People: No, you can't possibly know that much about this, *and* this, AND this! You're just making it up to make yourself look interesting, aren't you?
Me: ... No? I just read about it in some magazine/encyclopedia/on the internet?
People: Yeah, right. Look, just shut up for once and stop being a know-it-all. Nobody likes know-it-alls.
Me: *enters Reynir Mode* I'm sorry :-[ I just wanted to help :'(
I don't even know that much D: ! There are LOADS and LOADS of stuff I know *nothing* about!
STOP TALKING ABOUT ME LIKE THAT!!!!!
…I mean, "what an interesting set of problems to have. I can't imagine what it might be like to live with them".
Actually, my mom's side of the family has this tendency to ensnare people by their ears. Once so ensnared, the victim(s) willingly remain until they die from starvation are brought to their senses by an external force, and usually evince intense disappointment at the necessity of leaving.
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Sorry guys, thought this might be a worth while thread to necro to comment on the character development we're seeing in Lalli in this chapter considering he's actually learning another language. I'm really excited to see where his character development is going to continue to go, I mean we're not even half way through the story yet, a lot more is going to happen with him ! What if we get to see when he's proficient enough to actually have meaningful conversations with other crew members besides just Tuuri ?!? We probably will eventually, if not by the end of SSSS then in the other stories after SSSS that Minna has alluded to because I'm hoping his character development and language proficiency will have developed enough by then.
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I'm glad you resurrected the thread, Juniper!
I'm starting to fear that my suspicion on scout's education consisting in basically being taught to write ten different words (all related to levels of danger) and maybe count to twelve will become canon sooner or later.
Edit: of course, I mean the education outside scout training...
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Yeah poor guy, it says right in his bio that he knows very little about the outside world. I'm starting to think based on that and the fact that Reynir thought Denmark was the southern most place in the whole world it's not uncommon to find quite a few individuals in y90 who are pretty skimpy on their education, especially 'peasants' aka those working in agriculture and probably a lot of people in the military, especially Finland and Norway. Working as a night scout for the military since you were at least 13, potentially younger, is going to have plenty of drawbacks, missing out on education being one of them.
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I'm starting to think based on that and the fact that Reynir thought Denmark was the southern most place in the whole world
Not arguing with your main point, but I always understood that Reynir was using "the world" to mean "the known world," which seems like a normal idiomatic usage, and also means that he was completely factually right (well, not about the palm trees.)
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Not arguing with your main point, but I always understood that Reynir was using "the world" to mean "the known world," which seems like a normal idiomatic usage, and also means that he was completely factually right (well, not about the palm trees.)
I always thought that "world" actually mean those places that we know about (real or fictional and so on). Saying World for the Known World seemed okay to me.
if they mean the whole globe, they should have say earth maybe?
Lalli is a bit low educated as I notice, For example when he made a tiny mistake in his report back then, the younger scouts got an extra lesson to improve their describing skill, but Lalli skipped it, he might skipped more lessons in his life that he felt he might not need. He does not really know some things, like horse, train and such, because he has never seen them in his life.
but he is actually really easily learn things, he managed to learn a tiny swedish already, He actually know (or feel) that the earth is actually not flat, he can learn a map in few second of looking at it (he never carries a map with him) and easily can point out where he was and what he has seen when he returns and give the record (really good skill to be a scout)
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I always thought that "world" actually mean those places that we know about (real or fictional and so on). Saying World for the Known World seemed okay to me.
if they mean the whole globe, they should have say earth maybe?
Lalli is a bit low educated as I notice, For example when he made a tiny mistake in his report back then, the younger scouts got an extra lesson to improve their describing skill, but Lalli skipped it, he might skipped more lessons in his life that he felt he might not need. He does not really know some things, like horse, train and such, because he has never seen them in his life.
but he is actually really easily learn things, he managed to learn a tiny swedish already, He actually know (or feel) that the earth is actually not flat, he can learn a map in few second of looking at it (he never carries a map with him) and easily can point out where he was and what he has seen when he returns and give the record (really good skill to be a scout)
Yeah, he certainly has a very good memory and capacity for learning, but it's all about whether he wants/needs to learn or not. Kinda reminds me of Sherlock and how he only remembers things important to the situation so he can save on brain space.
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Yeah, he certainly has a very good memory and capacity for learning, but it's all about whether he wants/needs to learn or not. Kinda reminds me of Sherlock and how he only remembers things important to the situation so he can save on brain space.
Which is why it was nice to see him showing curiosity about something in today's update rather than just being like "Is it my job? If not who cares."
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Which is why it was nice to see him showing curiosity about something in today's update rather than just being like "Is it my job? If not who cares."
and maps are part of his job, sooooo he shows a bit interest toward it. yes
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I'm really happy that Lalli's finally getting the validation he needs. But at the same time it still doesn't feel totally satisfactory. I'd really like to see him learn that he doesn't need to be perfect all of the time and that it's allowed to make mistakes.
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Things are in fact going too well.
I mean, I don't know how long the story is planned to be and how far we are along, but I would have expected a bit more tension along the way. So far we have seen a good ironing out of edges for everyone involved. I wonder if things will go downhill or if the comic does in fact intend to have a nice upward progression in social relations and emotional development for everyone involved.
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Things are in fact going too well.
I mean, I don't know how long the story is planned to be and how far we are along, but I would have expected a bit more tension along the way. So far we have seen a good ironing out of edges for everyone involved. I wonder if things will go downhill or if the comic does in fact intend to have a nice upward progression in social relations and emotional development for everyone involved.
This is probably just the calm before the storm.
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This is probably just the calm before the storm.
Nope nope nope
*puts head in sand like an ostrich*
All will be well... if I just un-read that tweet of Minna saying the rest of the comic will be more glum...
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*puts head in sand like an ostrich*
All will be well... if I just un-read that tweet of Minna saying the rest of the comic will be more glum...
Yeah, I was thinking I could live in denial that it's the calm before the storm until I remembered Minna's tweet, too.
Maybe... maybe she meant glum for the mission? Like maybe they won't find as many books or something "reasonable" like that?
*remembers other stuff Minna has said about drama and angst*
Sigh.
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Yeah, I was thinking I could live in denial that it's the calm before the storm until I remembered Minna's tweet, too.
Maybe... maybe she meant glum for the mission? Like maybe they won't find as many books or something "reasonable" like that?
*remembers other stuff Minna has said about drama and angst*
Sigh.
We should take it slowly... one page at the time. And three pages a week (rather than five) just means the impending doom is getting delayed, which is a good thing, right?
Besides, Minna has said SSSS would be a generally light-hearted comic...
So what do you fear the most, the impending angst and glumness or the... (*swallows*) chapter break?
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We should take it slowly... one page at the time. And three pages a week (rather than five) just means the impending doom is getting delayed, which is a good thing, right?
Besides, Minna has said SSSS would be a generally light-hearted comic...
So what do you fear the most, the impending angst and glumness or the... (*swallows*) chapter break?
Yay, our impending doom is delayed!!! Though I am really excited to see where everyone's character ends up and how they develop and change in the second, more doom-y half of the story. Makes me think of the situations they might be put in and how people will react or change under pressure or in gloomy situations.
Secondly, both. I fear both.
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Today, December 7, 2018, marks a momentous occasion in Minnion History. On this day, for the first time in recorded history, Lalli Hotakainen ACTUALLY GRINNED. And that, my friends, calls for a lot of celebration!
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I heartily approve of this holiday.
In addition to the rampant adorableness, it warms my filthy shipper heart.
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Hear hear! This should be an annual celebration!
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I think it would make a suitable holiday! And the day after Finnish Independence Day too.
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(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/intermediary/f/36a70c2d-b2e2-48e9-8136-6841b6665288/dctujnp-7e229edf-af90-43f5-a86f-13eae2ceb129.jpg/v1/fill/w_400,h_287,q_70,strp/lalli_grin_day_by_theomegareaper101_dctujnp-fullview.jpg)
Edited the panel as a standalone.
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(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/intermediary/f/36a70c2d-b2e2-48e9-8136-6841b6665288/dctujnp-7e229edf-af90-43f5-a86f-13eae2ceb129.jpg/v1/fill/w_400,h_287,q_70,strp/lalli_grin_day_by_theomegareaper101_dctujnp-fullview.jpg)
Edited the panel as a standalone.
He looks so happy <3 So good
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(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/intermediary/f/36a70c2d-b2e2-48e9-8136-6841b6665288/dctujnp-7e229edf-af90-43f5-a86f-13eae2ceb129.jpg/v1/fill/w_400,h_287,q_70,strp/lalli_grin_day_by_theomegareaper101_dctujnp-fullview.jpg)
Edited the panel as a standalone.
Truly a glorious day
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(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/intermediary/f/36a70c2d-b2e2-48e9-8136-6841b6665288/dctujnp-7e229edf-af90-43f5-a86f-13eae2ceb129.jpg/v1/fill/w_400,h_287,q_70,strp/lalli_grin_day_by_theomegareaper101_dctujnp-fullview.jpg)
Edited the panel as a standalone.
All hail the Most Wonderful Of The Known World's Cinnamon Buns.
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I'm an individual with autism, and I've just started reading the comic- sorry if this has been discussed before.
I just... noticed a lot of things with Lalli that remind me of my own or others' tics and coping mechanisms- is Lalli autistic? I think that would be pretty cool.
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A legitimate question from somebody that lives with autism- I've noticed that there have been a lot of traits that might be called 'childish' or 'catlike' by many, but to me, they look like traits somebody with autism would have. Socially awkward, difficulties understanding tone even in his own language, unusual emotive responses, odd physical quirks like covering his ears when he's overwhelmed... like, it'd explain a lot, and it'd be understandable if the world that exists in the comic isn't very good at identifying autism.
I dunno. I'm autistic, and I really like Lalli- there's a lot of things he says or does that I feel very connected to, and I've only been reading this comic for a day.
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Welcome, new Minnion!
IIRC, Minna has stated that Lalli is neurodivergent in some way, but neglected to give details.
Personally, I've headcanoned him as such, as it fits very well with his displayed behavior.
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I really like that he's divergent- the more I read through this comic, the more I appreciate seeing the growth between characters and their interactions.
It's my headcanon, now; I like to think that even post/post-post apocalyptic worlds can have a place for people like me
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Welcome, Polycoria!
Like Ragnarok said, Minna has answered like this when she was asked that question during her twitch streams:
Q.: Have you ever thought about making Lalli a canon autistic character? As an autistic person, I really recognize a lot of Lalli's personality traits as autistic traits, and it would mean a lot to the autistic community to have more positive representation of autism in the media! thanks~~
A. (1:24:11): No, I don’t think I’m gonna make him like diagnosed for anything, because then I would kinda lock myself into how I could write him, so I’m just having him as, leaving kinda up to, what part of his strangeness is because he wasn’t properly socialized as a child and what part is, you know, just the way he is, so I’m letting people like just [] for themselves, if that makes sense. I personally like characters that kinda leave it up to the reader to, like decide what they want to see in the character because that way more people can see themselves in them. Like, some people might just be like “Oh, I’m not super-great with people, so I see myself in Lalli!” and stuff like that, [] them being super specific about it. I’m glad to hear that you find, a lot that you, what’s the word, empathize with Lalli.
(The "[]" were parts that transcribers couldn't figure out.) I think she also said more specifically said elsewhere that he is neurodivergent, but I couldn't find the transcription.
So headcanon away! It's a headcanon that makes a lot of sense, and I agree that it does a great job to show that post-apocalyptic worlds have places for neurodivergent folks :)
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Polycoria, hello and welcome to the commentariat. Yes, Minna has described Lalli as 'neurodivergent', and his character and behaviour certainly track with those of some friends and relatives who have been diagnosed with autism. I like how Minna has made a place for him in her world - scouting is probably where many folk like Lalli find where they fit and can be useful.
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It also helps that neurodivergent people tend to be savants in some way shape for form, so maybe Lalli is a more talented mage than Onni?
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I think hard evidence points towards Onni definitely being the better mage of the two. Though one of my "stolen from the comments" headcanons is wondering if due to luontos getting stronger with hardship, Tuuri's death could have mechanically given Lalli a boost in raw power.
I personally like the fact that if one reads Lalli as an autistic character, he avoids a few things that tend to be associated with autistic characters in other works of fiction, such as being super-talented and/or super-knowledgeable in some nerdy domain. While magic is definitely the part of Lalli's array of talents that tends to be associated with intelligence and knowledge the most, it takes a backseat to his scouting, in which he's just as prone to human error, if not outright goofing up, as anyone else.
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And of course, reports are the biggest stumbling block for Lalli.
Still, not interacting much is understandable, considering only his family even speaks his language. It's also a part of Finnish way to not say anything unless you have something meaningful to say. Especially important as Finnish magic goes by the language.
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Yeah, I'm just gonna hardcore HC him as autist- like, even when he's conversing with others (through his native language or through dreams), the way he speaks seems to be tilted. There are times he's speaking fine, and it's like, it's hard for him to convey something that 'everyone else' might find super easy to state and convey. I really see a lot of his behaviour quirks as very much like my own- and, like Lalli, even if I'm like... talented, at something, I'm not a savant at anything. For the most part, I seem 'normal' to most people, if a bit blunt, harsh, or straight to the point, or have difficulties finding ways to communicate with people, even when we're speaking the same damn language to each other.
The trait I liked the most with him, was how he covered his ears- when I'm incredibly overwhelmed (for good or bad reasons), I tend to cover my face with my hands completely, and curl away from the source of what's overwhelming me.
...
Also, I've kinda noticed that people like me tend to mimic animals, especially cats. Part of the reason I was asking was, I was afraid that maybe he was 'like that' because he was just basically being portrayed as a person with catlike responses and features. It's nice to know that there's room for him to be more than just 'weird catlike magic dude', and that the author openly left room for him to not just be a play on how 'he's basically like cats in this world'.
He's definitely my favourite character, and I can't wait to see more of him, and his interactions with everyone around him.
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I think hard evidence points towards Onni definitely being the better mage of the two. Though one of my "stolen from the comments" headcanons is wondering if due to luontos getting stronger with hardship, Tuuri's death could have mechanically given Lalli a boost in raw power.
I personally like the fact that if one reads Lalli as an autistic character, he avoids a few things that tend to be associated with autistic characters in other works of fiction, such as being super-talented and/or super-knowledgeable in some nerdy domain. While magic is definitely the part of Lalli's array of talents that tends to be associated with intelligence and knowledge the most, it takes a backseat to his scouting, in which he's just as prone to human error, if not outright goofing up, as anyone else.
Although Onni is hardly neurotypical. I don't think he's autistic, but I truly think he has a serious case of general anxiety disorder.
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Agreed. I tend to headcanon Onni (and indeed all the Hotakainens) as PTSD. They just express it in different ways.
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The whole society's got to be kind of PTSD, don't they?
I suppose by now some younger people living in some of the more sheltered locations don't feel like it; but it's only been 90 years, and I expect the society as a whole is still reeling.
Bear in mind the whole Silent World is still full of trolls who used to be people, many of whom were children, and almost all of whom were somebody's beloved family members: and all of them still in pain. And the still-human survivors know this -- and also know that the same thing may happen, at any time, to themselves or their loved ones.
So not only is the society still dealing with the reverberations of having almost everybody either die or trollify over a period of a few weeks -- but it isn't over.
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True indeed. The fact that it isn't over would haunt everyone.
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The whole society's got to be kind of PTSD, don't they?
I suppose by now some younger people living in some of the more sheltered locations don't feel like it; but it's only been 90 years, and I expect the society as a whole is still reeling.
Bear in mind the whole Silent World is still full of trolls who used to be people, many of whom were children, and almost all of whom were somebody's beloved family members: and all of them still in pain. And the still-human survivors know this -- and also know that the same thing may happen, at any time, to themselves or their loved ones.
So not only is the society still dealing with the reverberations of having almost everybody either die or trollify over a period of a few weeks -- but it isn't over.
True indeed. The fact that it isn't over would haunt everyone.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the above drives a not insignificant number of people to self-medicate with that oldest of home cures: booze. This brings its own set of pathologies, of course, but that's never stopped people before.
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While naturally I can't know for certain, I've sort of headcannoned it. I've was diagnosed with aspergers a few years ago, and I almost immediately picked up on some autistic traits in him. Though I understand Minna not wanting to comfirm it; ad she said, it would sort of lock her into how to write him, and I don't think an official diagnosis would make sense in the story.
Seconding the idea that Omni might have social anxiety of some sort ( maybe even agoraphobic, but That's sort of extreme). PTSD maybe, but as others have said, probably a lot of people not living in big safe areas are suffering some.
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I would ordinarily say Lalli is autistic... except we have to realize he's grown up in unusual circumstances, is a mage, and doesn't understand the language of most people around him. Half his mind is in one world and the other half in another. So autistic? No, I'm guessing not. Just different.
The fact that he hears voices... well, nevermind. ; )
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Yes yes yes!!! Headcanoned this almost right off the bat when I started reading a year-ish ago!! I'm not on the spectrum myself, but my brother, dad, late grandfather (probably, but he was never diagnosed), and... Friend? (might be more, might be less, I'm confused and prolly so are they) all are, and watching Lalli's interactions with the other characters really reminds me of my relationships with all these people.
Lalli and Tuuri in particular - I love the way Minna portrays their relationship, as it reminds me of my brother and I. They obviously care about each other, and being the only Finns on the quest (as well as all that how-their-family-collectively-kicked-the-bucket stuff) would bring them closer together, but even then Tuuri has no idea how Lalli's brain really works and Lalli doesn't seem to know how to express himself, or even to see the point of trying. And that leads to a lot of frustration and maybe even resentment on both ends, even though they're not trying to hurt each other (most of the time... I mean I barely have a relationship with my brother, but I'd never smack him in the face for staring at someone, Tuuri).
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Yep. Lalli is totally one of us. I don't blame Minna for not making it official, though, so people can't go nuts on her in the future if she ever has him do something perceived as "un-autistic."
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(http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/powerlisting/images/9/92/Necromancer_1005.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110821175235)
However, lacking that understanding doesn't make him indifferent to Emil's distress. Uta Frith describes this as "instinctive sympathy": perceiving a person to be sad=>do something to cheer them up, regardless whether this is an appropriate thing to do given the situation/the reason they are sad. So yes, Lalli remembered that Emil cares a lot about his hair, but he wrongly assumed fixing it would brighten Emil's mood due to poor theory of mind.
Okay, late answer, comment, reply (?), but this is something that has been bugging me quite a bit, not least because this kind of thinking has led to various people not understanding me IRL even without a diagnosis to blame their lack of understanding on (I'm honestly afraid what will happen if/when they have one).
For one thing, given Emil's reaction beforehand I'd assume it's extremely unlikely Lalli didn't know that the troll was what upset him, the problem I personally would think Lalli has is that he has no idea how to appropriately show that he cares and wants comfort him and thus falls back on helping Emil with something he knows Emil cares about in the hope that Emil will correctly realize that Lalli cares about him. Assuming Emil would be completely fine after his hair is fixed would, in my view as a problably-autistic, person be extremely unreasonable,the problem is that NTs tend to misinterpret a lot of what we do anyways so Lalli may have gotten yelled at for trying to comfort people quite a lot before and is thus desperate to seek what seems like the safest way to at least not upset the person further.
So the takeaway is that it's quite interesting what we both assumed?
You, as a NT (?) seeing Lalli as autistic thought that he assumed fixing his hair would fix everything.
I, as an autistic person (probably autistic, definitely having some autistic tendencies) assumed that he did it to show that he cares for Emil in general, maybe with a bit of an attempt at avoiding potential fallout if it wasn't appropriate (with, admittedly, forgetting that maybe putting your hand on their shoulder may be a better idea, but then, Emil is a weird foreigner to Lalli and forgetting obvious things is probably part of executive functioning difficulties...or is that just me being an idiot?).
Then again, maybe there's a deeper misunderstanding here as well?
When I try to cheer people up, I very much don't expect them to feel fine immediately, I know that's basically never how it works, but I do want them to know that I'm here for them if they need someone and/or that they don't have to be miserable alone, that somebody at the very least cares about them.
If you go by the assumption that people immediately feel better then it obviously seems much more bizarre (though that assumption in and of itself seems bizarre to me).
Still, that kind of misunderstanding is what I'd use as further evidence that he's on the spectrum since that is basically exemplary of the language barrier one has to face when trying to communicate across neurotypes, in either direction.
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As someone who is not autistic but is close to several people who are, that seems to me a very reasonable interpretation. My feel for Lalli’s actions would be that he is offering such comfort as he can to a person for whom he feels instinctive sympathy, but whose culture he does not understand at all.
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Still, that kind of misunderstanding is what I'd use as further evidence that he's on the spectrum since that is basically exemplary of the language barrier one has to face when trying to communicate across neurotypes, in either direction.
This reminds me of something that I noticed a while ago: Lalli is monolingual in Finnish, a language that is from a different family entirely than the other Nordic languages, and gibberish from their perspective. The rest of the main cast is fluent in at least one Indo-European Nordic language (mostly because Icelandic is the setting's English). The parallel than can be made is strangely spot-on, in my opinion.
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So, Tuuri would be the NT that grew up with an autistic sibling and learnt how to interpret?
Onni would be the one that sort of learned to mask and speak NT but still doesn't quite "get it" (Icelandic with heavy accent)=
This could actually kind of work really well as a metaphor.
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[Obligatory reminder that Lalli is cousins with Onni and Tuuri because I regularly see people who genuinely get their family relations wrong]
I never thought of extending the metaphor to Onni's accent (or to his and Tuuri's mutilinguism), but it does work indeed. My own intepreatation of the languages spoken by the Hotakainens can be summed up as "They all speak Finnish, yet are not speaking the same language".
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I'm really happy that Lalli's finally getting the validation he needs. But at the same time it still doesn't feel totally satisfactory. I'd really like to see him learn that he doesn't need to be perfect all of the time and that it's allowed to make mistakes.
Don't you think Onni needs that lesson more? He's the one who said "Grandma made one mistake and see what happened. We're not allowed to make mistakes."
Harsh words... though, his point was that you don't get to use "everyone is allowed to make mistakes" as an excuse when things go wrong.
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I just read all 20 pages of this thread and...
That was a ride...
It's interesting to see how attitudes towards autistic headcanon/interpretation have changed over time, some of those earlier comments were quite painful to read, it's nice to see more people just being kinda chill about it rather than trying to justify why he can't possibly be autistic as well as traumatised, introverted or poorly socialised (especially because autistic people can end up in cycles of poor socialisation where both issues compound into each other)
I suppose it'd be nice to see a bunch of autistic people talking about this rather than NTs/NTs with autistic relatives but I'm sure that discussion is happening somewhere.
Anyway, I'm team "Lalli is autistic because I'm autistic and relate to him and read him as such"
Also I was literally introduced to this story by an autistic friend of mine who read him as autistic and wanted me to enjoy such a full character