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Asterales:

--- Quote from: LooNEY_DAC on January 24, 2016, 05:34:33 AM ---So, here's a question: can a character exist independent of the setting?

My personal take on it is: decidedly not. Every character must be shaped by their setting to a greater or lesser degree, which is why I don't tend to put stuff in the aforementioned OC thread, and why, for example, "Jazz Age"!Onni is crippled by stage fright, while Western!Onni is afraid of the racism of the outside world, instead of being deathly afraid of Beasts, Trolls, Giants, and the Rash.

On the other hand, some things can remain consistent in a character regardless of setting. Any version of Emil, for example, will always be a mass of insecurity poorly cloaked by pomposity, and also Lalli's friend, assuming Lalli is present. On balance, though, more is changed by setting than is constant. The Western AU has allowed Emil to gain more confidence than the "Jazz Age" AU, for example, so the former will have fewer outbursts of insecurity than the latter.

So, now you can all tell me every way in which I am mistaken.

--- End quote ---

Hmm, I think, I agree with you.
Spoiler: To quote (annoyingly) form the OCS • show"Sometimes I get really attached to some of the environmental features. These dragons, the contract and some bloodsucking, long-legged rat-like creatures that could grow to the size of middle-sized dogs were some of them.
But because Ferusch stopped living in the mansion, the dragons and bloodsuckers vanished and while something like a contract stayed in the story, its nature changed completely.
To be honest, I'm still trying to bring my dragons back  ;) At some point they became shapeshifters and since they had a fairly important role in the original story (which had been created from five of my other stories) I thought I could, but they have lost their purpose. I might need to find a new story for them. I'm a bit sad, because they haven't been compatible with any other world I thought up ever since Ferusch's."
It seems that, for me, characters are so very intertwined with the setting that I cannot even try to build a new world around them. One that would fit their "energy". Simply because other characters will have remained in the world that eventually out-grew them.
On the other hand, from my perspective, characters can be missing energetically in a setting. These fluffy-snake-dragons had a very cool feel to them, like mist or rain and rather mysterious. Taking them out of the story directly affected the weather in certain parts of the country, some scenery choices and the general level of mysteriousness vs straightforwardness in this story.

Then again, the main character has changed to a degree that should make him entirely unrecognizable, whereas the set up largely remained the same.
I think, maybe the traits that remain, are ones that are universal and could have been brought on by many things or something that could happen in any story. Basic emotions or psychological mechanisms. But are we talking about the characters personality here, or their experiences? Where does one start and the other end?

But I also somehow managed to fuse five stories into this one.
Spoiler: showFrom one I (energetically, not physically) took the vast, dark forests, from one the strange feeling I had about the main character (a certain feel like a blue darkness, a bit like looking at the still waters of a lake at night where you half expect the stars to shine back at you and instead you see the moon, that, while almost blinding, only makes the darkness seem all that much more engulfing), from one the idea to have dragons, from one the whiteness of the land and from one the hopefulness that is now somehow buried in Anyoh's smile.

What defines a character anyway?

So my question would be: Do you think a setting can exist independently from a character? Would you be able to use the same setting for two stories or as habitat for completely unrelated sets of characters?




--- Quote from: Róisín on January 24, 2016, 06:31:26 AM ---No, I think you're right, LooNEY. The character and the environment shape and are shaped by one another. In a different world, the same person will react to different things, but will react to things of similar ........nature? Value? Meaning?......in the same way.

Something I worked out is that a character is well created (or, for a fanfic writer, well understood), if you, the writer, can drop the character into a situation, watch what they do, and think, 'yes well of course, being X, what else could he do?' If doing that leads to a character reacting in a totally unexpected way, either your understanding of your character deepens, or shows an unexpected facet; otherwise, you know you have it wrong, and will have to take that character back to basics, and build or discover them again.

--- End quote ---

Yes! That!
Possibly the reason "Canon" and "Fanon" characters exist. When characters have been (mis)interpreted by fans, but their behavior has become established as just as valid as the original, due to many ff-writers interpreting them similarly or because certain "what-ifs" had strong impact on the fandom.

Aierdome:

--- Quote from: Róisín on January 24, 2016, 06:31:26 AM ---Something I worked out is that a character is well created (or, for a fanfic writer, well understood), if you, the writer, can drop the character into a situation, watch what they do, and think, 'yes well of course, being X, what else could he do?' If doing that leads to a character reacting in a totally unexpected way, either your understanding of your character deepens, or shows an unexpected facet; otherwise, you know you have it wrong, and will have to take that character back to basics, and build or discover them again.

--- End quote ---

This, definitely. For me, the moment I know I have a fully-fledged character on my hands is when I want them to do something only to realize that this is a thing they'd never say or do.

As for the question of whether a character can exist independent on the setting, I'd say that the part that stays the same regardless of what situation the character comes from is very, very small - if Tuuri had grown up going on expeditions to Silent World every Tuesday, would she still be so excited for the outside world? While she may still long for being "out", her attitude and reasons behind her wanderlust would be completely different from canon Tuuri's. Would Onni, with his apparently quite impressive powers, still be so scared of the outside world if he was Immune? Probably not, though he might still fret about unexpected problems arising.

For me, the reason AU characters end up looking so similar to their canon versions in many fan-fics is that, consciously or not, the writer tweaks the situation they're in to be similar - or equivalent - to that of the canon versions. A fun thought excercise: if Emil and Lalli were swapped at birth, would they still become friends when they met in year 90?


--- Quote from: Asterales on January 24, 2016, 06:49:42 AM ---So my question would be: Do you think a setting can exist independently from a character? Would you be able to use the same setting for two stories or as habitat for completely unrelated sets of characters?

--- End quote ---

I think it's called "expanded universe"...  ;) But to answer the question, this depends on how much you've created of your world. I've recently became quite a fan of worldbuilding - I have an entire world map, with all countries and their capital cities marked, for a story which never moves out of a hundred kilometres' radius from the start point! By now, if you pointed at any random point on the map, I could give you a story set in it. It helps if you approach it sorta like building an RPG campaign (which is how the abovementioned story started). You set up a coherent setting, give it rules it abides by, figure out more important parts of its backstory and present-day events, and voila! It can accomodate pretty much every character.

BTW, have you read Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere books? That's the kind of a thing I'm talking about. With the amount of building that went into it, everyone could create a Cosmere world, magic system and characters and never have them interact with canon characters or planets - and it'd still be recognizably a Cosmere story.

Of course, on the other hand, there are characters so powerful that the setting would look completely different if you were to take them away, but that's probably not someone who'd makes for a good main character. See: the God-Emperor of Mankind in 40K. If you plucked the guy and replaced him with someone caring, pleasant and... let's call it "psychologically canny", the setting would be completely turned on its head. In a way, it's like a "noble vs grim" distinction I've seen once. A "grim" setting is the one where the world is completely immutable, regardless of what the characters do - to continue with my 40K example, no matter how many decisive victories the God-Emperor's side gets, the Imperium is still dying. The "noble" setting is the one where a few men can change the world completely - like in Star Wars, where taking down the Emperor puts the galaxy-spanning Imperium on its knees and gives way for stuff like New Republic and First Order.

...oof, I think I've given you a small essay. tl;dr: characters change depending on the setting, but a well-built setting can carry different characters without changing, unless those characters aren't too powerful.

Róisín:
'Fanon'. Hadn't heard that one, but the meaning is apparent. And gives me a name for something I'd noticed, but not really understood, since I'm new to writing fanfic. I mean, I've been writing since I was a child, but most of it has been poetry, and all of it has been original. Most of what I've had actually published or broadcast has been poetry, technical articles, the occasional song, filk or script, and some science-fiction short stories. SF tends to be more oriented to the idea rather than to the character, unless it's novel-length so the characters have time to develope. So I haven't written character much, unless it was in the context of poetry. And I still find writing on the internet quite strange - I'm used to having to go through a publisher or a magazine editor, and the liberty possible on the internet is.....interesting.

However, I had noticed that the SSSS fanfic on the Scriptorium, as well as on AO3 and fanficnet, seems to have two distinct strands - one that sticks fairly closely to canon, and another that diverges wildly. And yeah, some of the latter seem to have taken on a life of their own.

LooNEY_DAC:

--- Quote from: Asterales on January 24, 2016, 06:49:42 AM ---So my question would be: Do you think a setting can exist independently from a character? Would you be able to use the same setting for two stories or as habitat for completely unrelated sets of characters?

--- End quote ---

--- Quote from: Aierdome on January 24, 2016, 08:13:05 AM ---I think it's called "expanded universe"...  ;) But to answer the question, this depends on how much you've created of your world. I've recently became quite a fan of worldbuilding - I have an entire world map, with all countries and their capital cities marked, for a story which never moves out of a hundred kilometres' radius from the start point! By now, if you pointed at any random point on the map, I could give you a story set in it. It helps if you approach it sorta like building an RPG campaign (which is how the abovementioned story started). You set up a coherent setting, give it rules it abides by, figure out more important parts of its backstory and present-day events, and voila! It can accomodate pretty much every character.

--- End quote ---
So, for purposes of discussion, what is a setting, then?

Is it simply a specific place and time?
Is it, for example, "Regency England"?
Is it "Regency London"?
Is it "London immediately before and after the Battle of Waterloo"?

Or is it a specific assemblage of characters, whatever their physical location?
For an example, when I say "Blandings Castle", do I mean the actual (fictional) residence, or do I mean the Earl of Emsworth and all the other Threepwoods and their kin and friends?
Or when I say "the Drones Club", am I talking of the premises, or the assorted Eggs, Beans and Crumpets that frequent them?

In either case, I think many stories, whether successive or simultaneous, can be told.
For my first set of examples, there is an entire sub-genre of popular romance called "Regency Romances" set therein.
For my second set of examples, P. G. Wodehouse wrote numerous stories with either assemblage (or both!).

I know, I'm asking the Deep, Tough Questions, but that's my nature.

Róisín:
Good questions. If I say: I will set a story in the Real World, what do I mean by that? Do I mean in my household, in the little bush town where I live, on a plane halfway to Tierra del Fuego, in the Oval Office, in the mind of a loser who lives in his parents' basement? All or any of the above. Could just as easily be on Mars.

The setting will only be as interesting as the writer's description of it. As will the characters. So it's important to be able to visualise or remember a setting well enough to describe it clearly to the reader, and to be able to imagine a character well enough to do the same.

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