Linguistics

[Nimphy]

It's not really a problem though. It's good to have this somewhere for those who don't feel like running through all the comments, and it is sort of a translation, so it fits well enough. It's not like random comments about other people's translations are any better to fill the thread with (or worse).

Yup, she's right! I wasn't telling that only to you... I've just noticed that many people randomly post stuff in here that are not real translations (while yours was, in fact a translation) without reading the rules first  So yeah, I wasn't exactly speaking directly to you... more like leaving a clue for everyone else...

[Sunflower]

How interesting!  I was wondering why each of Germany's neighbors had adopted a different ethnonym for it.  (In Spanish, it's "alemán.")

Some paging through the American Heritage Dictionary (which is good for word origins) yielded an interesting factoid:  The "Ger-" in "Germany," meaning "spear," is the same as the "gar-" in "garlic"!  (Which was "spear-leek" in Old English.)

I used to think the name "Germany" was related to the words germane/german, meaning "related" (as in the old term "cousin-german"), and the Spanish word "hermano/a" for "brother/sister."  (One of the language boards mentioned that Spanish and Portuguese are odd men out among Romance languages for not using descendants of the Latin "frater" and "soror.")
But the AHD says the latter words stem from the Latin "germanus" (related, of the same race), from "germen" (offshoot, fetus, seed). 

I read somewhere that the tribe name "Alemanni" = "All the manni/warriors."  Is that accurate?

And is Frank->"Frangoi" where the term "Varangian" came from?


One last bit of language trivia:  The Greeks called all the uncivilized countries (non-Greeks) "barbarians" because all they could do was babble "bar, bar, bla, bla" instead of speaking Koine like civilized people...

Because Germany was pretty late to form as a united country/territory and from all the Germanic tribes living in that area, the Germanen ("spear-wielding warriors") were closest to Britain and the Alemannen (literal meaning unclear) were closest to France. Hence, "Germany" and "Allemagne".

Similarly, "Saksa" and the like (Finland, Estonia, Old Icelandic) from the Saxons, "bawerski" (Lower Sorbic) from Bavarians, "Frángoi" (Middle Greek) = Franks, Teutons, Vagoth, ...

"Deutsch(land)" itself and the Italian "Tedesci" come from diutisc ("of the people"), a term tweaked over time to designate the group of all local Germanic dialects spoken across the territory.

The Slavic nations mostly use terms related to n?m?ci, a case of the recurring concept to call people who cannot express themselves in your language "mute". Possibly in the same vein, "miksisk?i" (Jatwingian, Old Prussian) = "to stammer".

[Edit for non-Unicode forum: "niemci" and "miksiskai".]

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch_in_anderen_Sprachen

[Sunflower]

Oh dear! Sorry. Better consideration next time! *was boiling with explaining these all this day* But at least I got that out :'D Moving on~

No, I liked it!  I'd never seen any explanation of Taru's name (and you're right, "tall tale" is perfect for her).  And while Minna had translated Tuuri's and Onni's names, I'd never seen such a careful, detailed explanation of the difference between the two words and the proper contexts for each.  If we meet other Finnish characters, or hear new Finnish expressions, I'd enjoy a similar explanation.

Lalli killing the bishop, we did hear about previously.

So consider this a split decision?  And please don't stop posting!

[Nuti]

Alrighty then! (And no worries, you won't get rid of me that easily!) But I'm curious. Where did Minna post about these? In the comments of a page? I would like to read and compare our explanations and perhaps see her original intentions with naming characters.

[ThisCat]

Alrighty then! (And no worries, you won't get rid of me that easily!) But I'm curious. Where did Minna post about these? In the comments of a page? I would like to read and compare our explanations and perhaps see her original intentions with naming characters.

Think it was in the comments of that page where their names first showed up, but I'm not sure.

[JoB]

I read somewhere that the tribe name "Alemanni" = "All the manni/warriors."  Is that accurate?

The relation from "man(n)" to "men" (which, given the back then customs, meant free male citizens, who were expected to serve as warriors in a loosely similar way to what we know from the later knights) is pretty obvious, but for some reason, the linguists apparently still don't trust the "Ale" -> "all" connection ...

And is Frank->"Frangoi" where the term "Varangian" came from?

Doesn't seem like it ...

[Fimbulvarg]

The relation from "man(n)" to "men" (which, given the back then customs, meant free male citizens, who were expected to serve as warriors in a loosely similar way to what we know from the later knights) is pretty obvious, but for some reason, the linguists apparently still don't trust the "Ale" -> "all" connection ...
Doesn't seem like it ...

It would seem an etymology-thread for our brand new language board might be required.

Those linguists and their trust issues.

[JoB]

Think it was in the comments of that page where their names first showed up, but I'm not sure.

Right in the author's comment on the page introducing Onni and Tuuri - as far as those two are concerned.

[Lenny]

It would seem an etymology-thread for our brand new language board might be required.

Those linguists and their trust issues.

That is an exceedingly good idea. All this etymology is incredibly interesting, and needs its proper place.

By the way, thank you JoB! My German confusion has ended. Now I just need to know, why "Dutch"... I'll go look it up.

[JoB]

Now I just need to know, why "Dutch"... I'll go look it up.

Presto.

[Sunflower]

Then, just to confuse things, the U.S. has the Pennsylvania Dutch.  Who are not Dutch but German, mostly arriving from the Rhine-Palatinate in the late 17th and 18th centuries.  (Known for good, hearty, plain cooking and lots of it, a rather blunt sense of humor, and quaint folk art, such as hex signs on barns.)

[Solovei]

Then, just to confuse things, the U.S. has the Pennsylvania Dutch.  Who are not Dutch but German, mostly arriving from the Rhine-Palatinate in the late 17th and 18th centuries.  (Known for good, hearty, plain cooking and lots of it, a rather blunt sense of humor, and quaint folk art, such as hex signs on barns.)

BY THE WAY!
Any objections to sawing off the latest dozen-or-so messages about etymology to their own thread in the Language board?  I could just copy-and-paste all into one new post, but I think our forum mods could actually move them.

I want to encourage this discussion, but in a place where it won't get in the way of the original purpose.  (And then I can tell you how "Yankee" comes from a Dutch phrase.)

I've been waiting for you to, actually! 

[Nimphy]

If anyone is interested....

Apparently the Italian word for "hello" ("ciao") comes from the Venetian s'ciavo, which in return comes from latin sclavus, AKA "slave". When meeting someone, by greeting them, you put yourself at their service. Now, of course, "ciao" simply means "hello".

And Shqipëri, shqip, shqiptar (respectively Albania, Albanian (language), Albanian (person)) come from the word shqiponjë - "eagle". Albanians love their eagles.
Or at least that's what everyone tells me and what is commonly told in Albania - some linguists think otherwise. Bah!

[olavi]

Finnish language has a nickname for Germans, "sakemanni", which sounds like a combination of the "saksalainen" (saxon person) and the foreign "allemange" version. I couldn't find any certain information about the origin. It might come from hearing Germans use the word "man" frequently too. To my knowledge this name isn't really pejorative, but I might still be wary of using it anyway.

For those who aren't familiar with Wiktionary yet, here's a sample page: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/example

Basically it's a sister project of Wikipedia, so while it's quite accurate there might be some mistakes or controversial opinions on etymology here and there. It also includes deceaced and intermediate languages (like Old Norse or Old French). For me the site is quite addictive as you can easily get sucked into the stream of root words whenever you check a word.

You can also install it as a search engine add on to Firefox (and most likely to Chrome too). I've also assigned a keyword for it so I can just type "wikiword searchterm" to the address bar and it'll go straight to the word or the search results. However, this is not really neccessary unless you want to use the site constantly and want to speed things up a little.

[Solovei]

Speaking of Finland... I wonder of any Finns can explain to me where the name came from? I remember reading somewhere that the Finnish alphabet does not even have the letter F (or, very very rarely), and since they call themselves Suomi, where would "Finland" originate?