Post by: Ann Marie on February 24, 2015, 01:23:13 AM
Post by: starfallz on February 24, 2015, 09:14:28 AM
Ahem. I have problems differentiating U, Ö, and Y.
I'm sloooowly working through a Teach Yourself Finnish book that Flik gave me, but find it hard to listen to the CDs. I've been poking at Memrise, but it is just vocabulary memorization. So, all I can do so far is say my name, my nationality, and what languages I speak.
Post by: Ann Marie on February 24, 2015, 10:01:15 AM
I have a phone app, "Finnish in a month" that seems more helpful, but there's not a whole lot to it. Haven't found any books locally, so I'm going to have to order one online. What is the book you have?
Y is hard! Especially before another vowel. Double consonants make me cry. :-( And double vowels at the end of a word.
Post by: Synthpopalooza on February 24, 2015, 04:55:17 PM
Post by: JoB on February 24, 2015, 05:35:51 PM
Plus I think it is the only language that I have seen so far that uses a double ää umlaut.Well, Germans use the onomatopoie of "määh" for the sounds sheep make ...
... wait, that's not going to turn out to be a particularly well-hidden racist slur, is it? :o
Post by: Kata Kissa on February 24, 2015, 08:06:23 PM
Post by: Ann Marie on February 24, 2015, 10:39:43 PM
Job, I find German umlauts harder! I think määh would sound like a sheep. Don't see how it would be racist, though. If you were going to make inappropriate implications about Finns and livestock, wouldn't they involve reindeer rather than sheep? In fact I once found an old illustration... oh. Never mind.
Hei Kata Kissa! Hauska tutustua! Is that Lalli under the ferry table in your icon? Where did you get that?
Post by: Kata Kissa on February 25, 2015, 12:31:00 AM
Hei Kata Kissa! Hauska tutustua! Is that Lalli under the ferry table in your icon? Where did you get that?
Hauska tutustua! And that is Lalli under the ferry table, I made it myself. :3 I roleplay on Dreamwidth a bit and I have a friend who was looking for Tuuri icons. I ended up making a bunch of Lalli and Emil as well.
Post by: JoB on February 25, 2015, 06:44:06 AM
I think määh would sound like a sheep. Don't see how it would be racist, though.Well, by implying that the language having more of those double-Ä's sounds like animals bleating ... ::)
If you were going to make inappropriate implications about Finns and livestock, wouldn't they involve reindeer rather than sheep? In fact I once found an old illustration... oh. Never mind.Then it'ld be a slur that fails to exist at all, as Germany has virtually no reindeer. (Matter of fact, I wouldn't have the slightest what sounds reindeer make, short of shaking silver bells while pulling Santa's sleigh ...)
Post by: starfallz on February 25, 2015, 09:46:39 AM
One problem with pronunciation guide if you don't listen to the CDs is that it is for southern British English. But listening to the samples works well.
Finnish Phrasebook: http://wikitravel.org/en/Finnish_phrasebook (no voice samples)
Here's an online one that Ruth found.: http://fsi-languages.yojik.eu/
I think she said it was from old (1960s) diplomat learning courses.
Venla: http://venla.info/ (somewhat broken)
Tavataan Taas! http://donnerwetter.kielikeskus.helsinki.fi/FinnishForForeigners/parts-index.htm
(the audio clips are a little weird and all load on a page at once, but then you can click one and have it play when you need it to)
For the vowels, I just have to keep remembering a source word to get the sound. With enough practice I should be able to handle it.
löyly is a fun word!
Post by: Solovei on February 25, 2015, 11:39:26 AM
http://www.uusikielemme.fi/index.html (http://www.uusikielemme.fi/index.html) - Finnish for Busy People
Post by: Fimbulvarg on February 25, 2015, 11:43:56 AM
I somehow had this in my bookmarks even though I never studied finnish, but I thought it might be useful for some of you!I was half expecting a list of ways to tell people things like "make way" or "not now, I'm in a hurry".
http://www.uusikielemme.fi/index.html (http://www.uusikielemme.fi/index.html) - Finnish for Busy People
Minä kuulen ääniä - I hear voices
... Useful to know.
Post by: Nimphy on February 25, 2015, 12:16:22 PM
Minä kuulen ääniä - I hear voices
... Useful to know.
XD I will definitely go around telling Finns that. I now know not one, but TWO sentences in Finnish! Granted, both of them would make me look crazy, but that's... good, right?
Post by: partofacitygiant on February 26, 2015, 11:20:20 PM
(the attacking somewhat brutish thug escaped to the hide-outs of his poor sort of neighborhood rounding the corner while shouting : 'coppers!') <3
the mail brought the dictionary finnish - karelian I bought in January, so I might join you guys here on occasion to write something on the language closest to eastern finnish dialects. Wishing courage in your endeavour!
Post by: jayen_aitch on February 27, 2015, 02:25:54 AM
It is a lot of fun, especially when I come across stuff that confuses me greatly and try to ask for an explanation.
I can't really do any written Finnish though.
Post by: Ann Marie on February 28, 2015, 01:54:35 AM
Thank you all for the links! There will hopefully be something for everyone in there.
Wanted to add that I listen to Finnish radio (Radio Suomi, or more often Yle Puhe) regularly, and though I can't understand very much I think it's helping with pronunciation. I can't stream audio at home but it works well on my phone where there's a good signal.
Jayen_aitch, do you live in Finland? Or did your Finnish half demand to have a sauna wherever you are?
Partofacitygiant, is Karelian much different than Finnish? I honestly don't know if it would be more like Finnish or Russian... er.
Post by: starfallz on February 28, 2015, 04:22:26 PM
http://anttilearnslanguages.tumblr.com/post/79749633621/learning-finnish-online
http://www.uusikielemme.fi/grammar.html
Post by: Ann Marie on March 01, 2015, 05:27:57 AM
There's a whole bunch more loanwords from russian than in finnish, but quite a lot of the vocabulary is almost like some thick eastern dialect of finnish, with some different grammar and sounds. There are also plenty words that are neither derived from finnish or russian. I can usually manage reading some sentences in an article but the intonation is so weird I mostly can't understand what's being said. Someone said it's like hearing Scots mixed with occasional Gaelic words would be to an English person, don't know of the validity of the claim.
That makes sense, actually. Why are you learning it?
Post by: Ann Marie on March 01, 2015, 05:57:41 AM
Thought I'd pass it on in case you hadn't seen it yet.
Post by: starfallz on March 01, 2015, 02:31:34 PM
Starfallz, that tumblr page is great! And new to me, yay and thank you! BTW I found your tumblr the other day, from a link on here I think? Maybe an art thread, and your drawings are fantastic and I'm stalking you now.
Oh gosh, thank you!
Post by: Lalligaattori on March 02, 2015, 04:10:06 PM
it's a great way to get an ear for the language, and being a kids cartoon it's pretty easy to follow even w/o subtitles. plus it's the perfect excuse for watching cartoons in your pajamas and generally pretending to be a child on a saturday morning.
aaand it's a part of genuine, traditional finnish culture (achievement unlocked: sophistication) so what's not to like?
presently available at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm8yxjwVNlj65gfAAkLemzw
(warning: previous channel to host episodes of muumilaakson tarinoita had all episodes thereof deleted so they might not be here for long)
Post by: starfallz on March 02, 2015, 10:17:33 PM
sooo my current finnish learning tactic is watching muumilaakson tarinoita (i.e. moomins)
it's a great way to get an ear for the language, and being a kids cartoon it's pretty easy to follow even w/o subtitles. plus it's the perfect excuse for watching cartoons in your pajamas and generally pretending to be a child on a saturday morning.
aaand it's a part of genuine, traditional finnish culture (achievement unlocked: sophistication) so what's not to like?
presently available at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm8yxjwVNlj65gfAAkLemzw
(warning: previous channel to host episodes of muumilaakson tarinoita had all episodes thereof deleted so they might not be here for long)
Cool idea!
Post by: Sunflower on March 02, 2015, 11:00:12 PM
Cool idea!
You may find this news interesting:
http://yle.fi/uutiset/original_moomin_comics_make_bid_for_global_movie_stardom/7524352
Post by: Ann Marie on March 04, 2015, 03:18:27 AM
Lalligaattori, that is a brilliant idea and I'm going to try to dl some Moomins next time I have decent net. I've somehow never seen any, and only read a little (in English).
OK! And for everyone, there's something I've been wanting to do, and I think it might be more fun as a group: read aRTD in the original language. Anyone want to try? We can do a page a day, something like that?
Post by: Lalligaattori on March 04, 2015, 07:29:19 AM
OK! And for everyone, there's something I've been wanting to do, and I think it might be more fun as a group: read aRTD in the original language. Anyone want to try? We can do a page a day, something like that?
yesss! though maybe 2-3 pages a day (depending how much text/page) so it doesn't take like a 2 years to get through it :P
Post by: Ann Marie on March 05, 2015, 03:30:19 AM
BTW Lalligaattori (cute name!) I see you've made two posts, and they are both in this thread. I think they customarily hand out cookies (of indeterminate squirrel content) in the intro thread in the general discussion forum. You should go nab some; I hear they're ... tasty? or fibrous, one of those.
Post by: Lalligaattori on March 05, 2015, 01:08:04 PM
and having written that, i think "the long road to comic comprehension" would serve as an excellent tagline.
BTW Lalligaattori (cute name!)
thanks!
on a different-but-actually-more-relevent-to-this-particular-thread note, i got the name from Eläinsanasto (https://nensarjakuvat.wordpress.com/elainsanasto/ (https://nensarjakuvat.wordpress.com/elainsanasto/)), which is a wonderful place for those who love both finnish and puns
Post by: Ann Marie on March 06, 2015, 12:13:28 AM
and having written that, i think "the long road to comic comprehension" would serve as an excellent tagline.
I think I'm going to have to put that in my sig, if you don't mind?
Quote
on a different-but-actually-more-relevent-to-this-particular-thread note, i got the name from Eläinsanasto (https://nensarjakuvat.wordpress.com/elainsanasto/ (https://nensarjakuvat.wordpress.com/elainsanasto/)), which is a wonderful place for those who love both finnish and puns
OMGosh that is fabulous. I'm surprised at how many I actually get!
Post by: Auleliel on March 06, 2015, 11:53:51 AM
And that's about how much I've learned so far, but someday I'll know enough to read ARTD. I hope...
Post by: Ann Marie on March 06, 2015, 07:06:53 PM
Post by: Dane Murgen on March 06, 2015, 07:38:50 PM
Post by: Lalligaattori on March 07, 2015, 09:25:54 AM
think I'm going to have to put that in my sig, if you don't mind?
go for it! or maybe something even more alliterative like 'the calamitous causeway to comic comprehension'...
Post by: Ann Marie on March 09, 2015, 01:41:40 AM
*whiiiiiiine*
Post by: Cancvas on March 11, 2015, 05:21:20 AM
Noh, minulla on ollut tämä kirjanmerkeissä pitkän aikaa, ehkä teille on siitä hyötyä.
http://users.jyu.fi/~pamakine/kieli/suomi/sisallysen.html
-C
Post by: Pessi on March 11, 2015, 07:28:25 AM
Reindeers don't say much anything most of the time. In the Spring the mother reindeers and their little calves(?) (vasa in Finnish) call for each other in a throaty voice called "roukuminen" in Finnish. It sounds a little like a pig grunting but the sound carries much further. In the Autumn the male reindeers make a noice like clearing their throats when looking for females to mate with.
Post by: Laufeysdóttir on March 18, 2015, 03:15:08 PM
ok, then. let the embarrassment commence...
Olin Keskisuomessa 20 vuotta sitten (milloin tulin niin vanhaksi??). Mä en muista paljon suomea. (actually, people did say mää where I was, too. feel silly writing it now though as my Finnish is so bad!!) Mutta ymmärrän vielä enemmän kuin osan sanoa. Mulla ei ole aikaa opiskella mutta haluaisin reactivate all that lost knowledge (ok. I give up. some natives please help. apua!!!)
you don't even want to know how long it took me to write this. please tell me there's a secret technique / magic potion to revive those withered synapses...
I also never know what to write in situations like this. Maybe we can ask each other questions? :-)
Post by: Cancvas on March 19, 2015, 02:34:34 AM
That went nicely and was perfectly understandable :)
I'll try to help. First of all, if you had working knowledge of spoken finnish, written learning isn't all thet helpfull.
Koetan auttaa. Ensinnäkin, jos olet osannut puhua suomea, ei kirjoitetun opettelu ole välttämättä niin hyödyllistä.
"Mulla ei ole aikaa opiskella mutta haluaisin reactivate all that lost knowledge "
"... haluaisin kerrata unohtamaani."
tai
"...haluaisin palauttaa mieleen hukkaamani taidon."
-C
Post by: Pessi on March 19, 2015, 09:51:07 AM
Laufeysdóttir, suomesi on ällistyttävän ellei suorastaan pelottavan hyvää tullakseen ihmiseltä, joka ei ole käyttänyt kieltä vuosiin.
There's no magic potion alas (I'd really need some for my own language studies too), but I've found that reading books is a great help in learning languages and also keeping them in memory. You just need to find something you like reading.
Taikajuomaa ei valitettavasti ole (tarvitsisin totisesti sellaista omiin kieliopintoihinikin), mutta olen todennut, että kirjojen lukeminen on suureksi avuksi kieltä opetellessa ja muistissa pitäessä. On vain löydettävä jotain, jonka lukemisesta pitää.
Writing helps too of course. I'm shamelessly using this forum to activate my English ;)
Kirjoittaminen auttaa myös totta kai. Käytän häpeämättömästi tätä foorumia englanninkieleni aktivoimiseen ;)
Post by: Laufeysdóttir on March 19, 2015, 06:38:56 PM
mä en pysty kirjoittaa paljon suomea tänään (liian väsynyt) - in a way I am cheating anyway: I'm only writing what I remember, so you don't see all the things I don't know...
btw, does anyone know of a decent Finnish grammar book or website? I have some serious brushing up to do...
kiitos ja hyvää yötä.
Post by: starfallz on March 20, 2015, 09:58:06 AM
/>
(bonus cute puppy near the end.)
Post by: Laufeysdóttir on March 20, 2015, 05:07:47 PM
and I must have been really tired not to notice the link Cancvas left in an earlier post... (kiitos viestistä!!)
...back to revising...
Post by: Ann Marie on March 24, 2015, 09:24:40 PM
Wild friendly Finns, if any of you are around and inclined to assist me, I need help finding information about a singing course, or rather a series of them. Specifically I'd like to know if any are suitable for teenagers, and what languages they are taught in.
Here is the website, hopefully the right page:
www.joutsenonopisto.fi/yksinlaulun-ja-saestyksen-kurrsi/
And an informational pdf:
www.joutsenonopisto.fi/wp-content/blogs.dir/4/files/2011/12/Taidekesa_2015_web.pdf
I did email the contact person but she only sent me an application form in Engish that didn't have any more information. I am not sure she understood my questions and I don't know that she would appreciate me asking the same things again.
Kiitos ja kiitos! (I bet "please and thank you" doesn't really translate that neatly)
Post by: Pessi on March 25, 2015, 05:23:18 AM
LAULUN MESTARIKURSSI, YKSINLAULUKURSSI – ÄÄNENMUODOSTUKSEN JA TULKINNAN, LIEDIN JA OOPPERAN KURSSI SEKÄ SÄESTYKSEN KURSSI
MASTER COURSE OF SINGING, SOLO SINGING COURSE - COURSES OF VOICE FORMULATION AND RENDITION(?), LIED AND OPERA AND AN ACCOMPANIMENT COURSE
18.-24.7.2015
July 18th - 24th 2015
Kohderyhmä
Focus group
Musiikinopiskelijat ja laulajat sekä pianistiopiskelijat
Students of music and singers as well as pianist students
LAULUN MESTARIKURSSI
MASTER COURSE OF SINGING
Franz Lukasovsky, Wienin musiikkiyliopisto
Franz Lukasovsky, Music University of Wien
Kurssille otetaan kuusi laulajaa. (Kurssilla on pianisti valmiina)
Six singers will be taken on the course. (The course has it's own pianist)
LAULU
SINGING
Jorma Elorinne, Timo Honkonen, Sirkka Parviainen, Johanna Tuomi ja Sirkku Wahlroos
List of teacher's names
ENSEMBLE
ENSEMBLE
Ville Enckelmann Düsseldorfin Deutsche Oper am Rheinista pitää kaksipäiväisen oopperaensemblekurssin (ke-to). Kiinnostuneiden toivotaan muodostavan ensembleja ja valmistavan ohjelmistoa joko ennen kurssia tai kurssin alkupäivinä
Ville Enckelmann from Düsselforf's Deutsche Oper am Rhein gives a two day opera ensemble course (wed - thu). Those interested in participating are asked to form ensembles and prepare some repertoire either before the course or at it's beginning.
ITALIALAINEN AARIA
ITALIAN ARIA
Ritva Auvinen pitää kolmipäiväisen italialaisen aarian kurssin (ma-ke). Pianistina kurssilla Tero Valtonen.
Ritva Auvinen gives a three day course on Italian aria (mon - wed). Tero Valtonen will be playing piano on the course.
SÄESTYS
ACCOMPANIMENT
Heikki Pellinen ja Pia Värri
Teacher's names
Yksinlaulukurssin kanssa yhteistyössä toimii säestyksen kurssi, jossa pianisti saa opetusta kurssin luokkatunneilla ja toimii duoparina laulajille, jolloin kurssimaksu korvautuu työnä. Pianistiksi voi hakeutua myös ilman ”omaa” säestettävää.
Cooperating with the solo singing course will be an accompaniment course, on which pianist will receive teaching on the course's classroom lessons and act as a duo pair for singers thus paying the course fee through working. It is possible to apply on the course even without "own" singer to accompany.
Hakeminen
Applying
Opiston kotisivujen kautta sähköisesti, esitteen hakemuslomakkeella tai tulostettavalla lomakkeella 30.4. mennessä.
Through web, using the form attached to the brochure or using a printed form by April the 30th
Kurssimaksut
Course fees
A-hinta 510€
A-price 510€
B-hinta 400€
B-price 400€
C-hinta 570€
C-price 570€
A-hinta= maksuun sisältyy opetus, aamiainen, lounas, päiväkahvi, iltaruokailu ja asuminen kahden hengen huoneessa
A-price= the fee includes teaching, breakfast, lunch, afternoon coffee, supper and accommodation in a two person's room.
B-hinta = maksuun sisältyy opetus, lounas ja päiväkahvi
B-price = the fee includes teaching, lunch and afternoon coffee
C-hinta= sama muuten kuin a-hinta, mutta majoitus 1hh
C-price= same as a-price exept accommodation in a one person room.
p.s. I sent them a message asking about the teaching languages and preferred age of participants. Let's see if they answer questions in Finnish any easier ;)
Post by: Sunflower on March 25, 2015, 02:02:33 PM
I've learned about my 6th word in Finnish now. This discussion benefits even the lurkers! :) Thanks for sharing your expertise.
The link took me to a page that said what I'm searching for does not exist, but using their own search engine brought me to a page about singing and accompaniment courses which I guess is the right one. Underneath is a somewhat clumsy translation. I found nothing about the preferred age of participants or languages to be used in teaching in here or in the pdf brochure.
LAULUN MESTARIKURSSI
MASTER COURSE OF SINGING
LAULU
SINGING
Jorma Elorinne, Timo Honkonen, Sirkka Parviainen, Johanna Tuomi ja Sirkku Wahlroos
List of teacher's names
Post by: Ann Marie on March 25, 2015, 09:25:12 PM
I'm seeing now I have two sites open with similar courses, one in Jyväskylä and one in Joutsenon.
http://www.kangasniemenmusiikkiviikot.fi/laulun_kesa-akatemia.php
http://www.joutsenonopisto.fi/yksinlaulun-ja-saestyksen-kurssi/
I just got email from one of them... uh. The Joutsenon one, saying she should go ahead and apply. The less informative email was from the Jyväskylä contact. I need to discuss with my husband and my daughter's teacher whether this looks better than coming home for the last couple weeks of opera camp.
eeeeeeeeEEEEEEEEeeeeeeee! This might really happen. I need to get back to studying!
ps Sunflower, I agree that is a beautiful word. :-) Finnish has lots of them!
Post by: Pessi on March 26, 2015, 07:05:22 AM
I'm also going to be a grammar nazi once again, I hope you don't mind: The place name is Joutseno, Joutsenon is a genitive form. Joutsenon opisto = the institute/academy of Joutseno.
(Basic word in the name Joutseno is btw joutsen, "swan". Accordingly the community has a (rather nasty looking) swan on their escutcheon (http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joutseno#/media/File:Joutseno.vaakuna.svg).)
Post by: Lalligaattori on March 28, 2015, 01:00:03 PM
since i've been skiing for the last week i thought it appropriate to share this pun
(http://i.imgur.com/gFPbEFf.png)
that is all
Post by: Peraphelion on March 29, 2015, 02:57:15 PM
Post by: Ann Marie on March 29, 2015, 06:01:23 PM
That is quite a frightening swan! We don't see them much here. Are they as aggressive as geese?
*groans at Lalligaattori*
Welcome Peraphelion! I don't think I'd make it through a Finnish winter, either, but I think I'd like to try. Where are you now?
Post by: Peraphelion on March 29, 2015, 08:55:59 PM
Welcome Peraphelion! I don't think I'd make it through a Finnish winter, either, but I think I'd like to try. Where are you now?
I live in the Northwest United States, Oregon to be precise. We get a bit of snow, but it rarely sticks in the valley I'm in, so our winters are mostly clouds and rain, occasionally dropping below freezing at night. I'm built from twigs, so I chill easily. I can see why Finns love saunas so much. Sounds like a wonderful way to warm up in the winter!
Post by: Pessi on March 30, 2015, 01:23:28 AM
I don't think I'd make it through a Finnish winter
Winter? We don't do that kind of thing here any more, thanks to the climate change. As one of my frieds recently put it, we are now having not a March but the fifth November in a row.
Post by: Ann Marie on March 30, 2015, 03:05:54 AM
Post by: Cancvas on March 30, 2015, 03:43:25 AM
Riippuu missä asut. Meillä on vielä ainakin kymmenen senttiä lunta jäljellä ja lisää sataa koko ajan. Tosin se mitä olen kuullut on, että rannikkosuomessa alkaa olla keskieurooppalainen sää.
-C
Post by: Pessi on March 30, 2015, 05:58:51 AM
Joo okei, meillä on melkein lumimyrsky tällä hetkellä pääkaupunkiseudulla. Mutta tarkoitin, että nykyään "talvi" tarkoittaa villisti plus viiden ja miinus 25:n välillä vaihtelevaa lämpötilaa ja lunta joka tulee ja menee, eikä koko homma yleensä kestä kuin kuukauden verran - lukuunottamatta tietysti näitä satunnaisia keväisiä lumituiskuja. Ei ole enää yhtenäistä pakkasjaksoa marraskuun lopulta maaliskuun alkuun, katkoinaan vain satunnaiset suojapäivät, saati tarpeeksi lunta, että voisi huoletta hiihtää niittyjen ja metsien halki.
Post by: Ann Marie on April 02, 2015, 09:10:32 PM
Yes. Finnish sounds like tears. Exactly like them.
Post by: FinnishViking on April 03, 2015, 07:53:09 AM
So I was listening to yle puhe when I picked my daughter up from school, and she got in the car and said, "what is that noise? It sounds like tears!"
Yes. Finnish sounds like tears. Exactly like them.
Well better than my Planetside 2 squad who were listening me singing some old rock songs.
"Guttural howls" was how it was most commonly described as.
Post by: Ann Marie on April 05, 2015, 02:26:52 AM
Are you recorded singing online anywhere? *curious*
Post by: FinnishViking on April 09, 2015, 04:19:48 PM
Post by: Ann Marie on April 09, 2015, 04:31:40 PM
*buys you a new microphone*
Ooh I could almost write that in Finnish! If I had more time, will try later.
Post by: Pessi on April 15, 2015, 06:02:38 AM
Post by: Ann Marie on April 15, 2015, 09:12:24 PM
Heh, I've been following that page on tumblr for a while. I just never have time for tumblr anymore.
Pessi, do you sing? Could I get your opinion on some teachers? Sirkka Parviainen, Johanna Tuomi, and Sirkku Wahlroos-Kaitila. They all seem pretty similar from what I can tell, but we're supposed to pick two. http://www.joutsenonopisto.fi/yksinlaulun-ja-saestyksen-opettajat/
Post by: Pessi on April 16, 2015, 01:59:05 AM
Sirkka Parviainen has studied singing in London and Karlsruhe besides graduating from Sibelius Academy (the Finnish music university). She has won singing competitions both in Finland and abroad and has performed as a visiting artist in many operas as well as giving concerts around Europe. She also seems to have a good sense of humour judging by her contribution (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51wkn9aoNII) to the Finnish Broadcasting Company's humorous "Shower singing competition".
Johanna Tuomi has her very own page in the Finnish Wikipedia, and that page tells she is a professional opera singer whose broad repertoire also includes operetta, gospel and jazz. She has graduated from Sibelius Academy as both singer and music teacher, worked in the Finnish national opera in the 80's, done a myriad of both opera and operetta roles around Finland, sung in the premieres of many Finnish operas and given concerts around Europe. She's been teaching solo singing in Sibelius Academy since 1994.
Of Sirkku Wahlroos-Kaitila the web told very little. Just that she has made a long career as singing teacher in the Sibelius Academy and is also the senior singing teacher in Helsinki conservatory and that she is at present the teacher of at least one professional Finnish opera singer. I also found an old interview in which she states that music is a form of communication so a singer needs to understand the character of each language used, that singing needs some purely physical fitness and a good breathing technique as it's basis and that singing lessons are very personal situations where the teacher must be very responsive to be able to find the best qualities of the student and the best "clang" of the student's voice.
Post by: Ann Marie on April 16, 2015, 03:41:18 AM
I hope they don't expect the students to be able to sing on that level. O.O I am told my kid sings well, but between my hopeless ear and parental bias, I'm not qualified to judge. I hope she will fit in, if they even accept her. Oh dog, what if they don't - we already committed to staying.
Post by: Pessi on April 16, 2015, 07:27:40 AM
As far as I've understood those summer courses don't demand that the participants are pro, just that they take their singing seriously and are willing to work to develop their skills.
Post by: Daéa Reina on April 16, 2015, 12:28:09 PM
Now I really want to start again. I found a few videos on Youtube and I don't know if someone already posted that, but anyway: />
I'll take some time later to go through all the links you guys posted. :)
Post by: Pessi on April 16, 2015, 02:58:08 PM
Post by: Daéa Reina on April 16, 2015, 10:30:52 PM
I haven't started studying yet (as I haven't started a LOT of things I want to do), but I'll keep that in mind!
Post by: princeofdoom on April 17, 2015, 12:46:05 AM
Post by: Ann Marie on April 17, 2015, 02:26:08 AM
Daéa Reina, welcome! I never saw or read or even heard of Moomins when I was little, but we've started watching the show (in English, since my younger daughter objected to Finnish :-P) and it's charming.
I even have a hard time understanding spoken English half the time, so I can't expect better in another language.
I have this same problem. How am I going to understand different Finnish dialects when I don't understand so many English ones?
Post by: FinnishViking on April 17, 2015, 08:41:09 AM
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I dare say that dialects aren't *that* bad since most people don't speak in that heavy of a dialect anymore and while you can hear the difference most people you can understand perfectly fine. Really only old people who still remember how to speak in the heavy dialect are hard to understand even for me personally and if they also happen to speak another dialect on top of that i sometimes can't understand them, but most people from young to old these days speak pritty similiarly so don't be intimidated.
Post by: Pessi on April 17, 2015, 09:05:12 AM
Pessi, attending a conservatory sounds pretty committed to me!
I was only a pedagogic student, aka a training piece for a young lady studying to become a singing teacher. But she was
the most inspired and inspiring one of the five teachers I had during the ten years I took lessons =)
Olin vain pedagoginen oppilas, toisin sanottuna harjoituskappale eräälle nuorelle naiselle, joka opiskeli tullakseen laulunopettajaksi. Mutta hän oli innostunein ja innostavin kaikista viidestä opettajasta, jotka minulla oli niiden kymmenen vuoden aikana, jolloin kävin tunneilla =)
Moomins btw were originally written in Swedish. All that Finnish stuff is just translations.
Muumit on muuten kirjoitettu alkujaan ruotsiksi. Kaikki suomenkieliset versiot ovat vain käännöksiä.
(Edit: Added the Finnish translations for the message, this is after all the Finnish learning thread.)
Post by: starfallz on April 17, 2015, 09:08:48 AM
Daéa Reina, I'm always touched when someone wants to learn my obscure and mostly useless-to-anyone-who-doesn't-live-in-Finland mother tongue, so if you have any questions or other things I can help with concerning the language, just say.
I know this wasn't directed at me, but it makes me feel happy. I've been very slow at picking up anything and really only know various greetings, numbers, and days of the week so I was getting disheartened. This helped pick up my spirits. :)
Post by: Pessi on April 17, 2015, 09:12:57 AM
No joo, sitä ei ollut osoitettu sinulle henkilökohtaisesti, mutta se koskee kaikkia, jotka haluavat ja yrittävät oppia suomea =)
Post by: Ann Marie on April 19, 2015, 03:03:34 AM
Muumit on muuten kirjoitettu alkujaan ruotsiksi.
I missed this bit - I'd been wondering if she wrote in Finnish or Swedish and kept forgetting (like I forget most things) to look it up. Now I know! I don't know if the animated show was originally produced in Swedish, though. I had assumed Finnish and Japanese. I'd specifically downloaded it in Finnish on the suggestion of someone here that it might be a good learning tool. One day I'll find out. :-P
Post by: Sunflower on April 19, 2015, 04:15:54 AM
I was listening via YouTube to songs by the '80s a cappella group The Nylons (which I've loved for years). One of my favorite songs, their arrangement of "(Na Na Hey Hey) Kiss Him Goodbye," was from a very strange source: "Hockey Fever," (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlZixnVu97c&index=43&list=PL11ABA5B638345E72)a 1995 album of (I guess) music played at Finnish ice hockey games?!?
I realize the original song is popular at sporting events in the U.S. Finnish hockey, though? Plus, the combination struck me as funny -- one of the roughest, toughest team sports in the world listening to (if I may say) a musical group that's more glittery and fabulous than Freddie Mercury and Wham! put together.
Post by: Laufey on April 19, 2015, 05:09:19 AM
Post by: Ann Marie on April 19, 2015, 07:31:46 PM
Post by: Sunflower on April 19, 2015, 11:54:27 PM
https://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/Finnish.html
Great resource -- thanks for sharing it! I have no intention of actually learning Finnish, but I'm interested in how languages work.
One of the links on that site led to www.finland.fi, a site run by the Finland Promotion Board.
Of particular interest: "How the heck did you learn Finnish?" (http://finland.fi/Public/default.aspx?contentid=304335&nodeid=37588&culture=en-US) a 2-part article (in English) interviewing various Europeans on what worked for them to learn Finnish.
BTW, I'm amused to see that links to actual lessons are titled:
Starry-eyed study of Finnish (Intermediate Finnish 101)
Your honeymoon with the Finnish language (Intermediate Finnish 102)
The unbearable beauty of Finnish grammar (Intermediate Finnish 103)
If this post is redundant, I'll take it down.
Post by: AuthorOfLight on April 20, 2015, 07:45:14 PM
I just started learning Finnish last week, and I'm really excited, kind of intimidated, and kind of overwhelmed. But mostly excited.
Finnish is such a pretty language oh my word ^.^
Post by: Pessi on April 21, 2015, 02:31:14 AM
1995 was in the hockie circles the year of great celebration for the realisation of a long held dream: our national team Leijonat (Lions) finaly beat Sweden's national team Tre kronor (Three Crowns) in a world championships final. That CD is part of the hype, so they've collected on it the most loved "team songs". (It has also such a glaring grammatical error on it's cover that I don't know whether I should laugh or cry. Perhaps the best way to deal with it is just shrug and remember that grammar is not something the hockey scene is usually very interested in ;))
Auringonkukka, suomalaisilla lätkäjoukkueilla on kaikenlaisia "omiksi" otettuja lauluja. Täällä on myös paljon ihmisiä, jotka seuraavat jenkkiurheilua, joten ei liene ihme, jos meidän urheiluympyröidemme musiikkimaku on saanut vaikutteita sieltä.
1995 oli jääkiekkoympyröissä vuosi, jolloin juhlittiin isossa mittakaavassa pitkäaikaisen unelman toteutumista: meidän maajoukkueemme Leijonat voitti vihdoin Ruotsin maajoukkueen Tre Kronorin lätkän maailmanmestaruuskisojen finaalissa. Tuo CD on osa sitä hehkutusta, joten sille on kerätty kaikki rakkaimmat "joukkuelaulut". (Sen kannessa on muuten sen luokan kielioppivirhe, etten tiedä itkeäkö vai nauraa. Ehkä paras ohittaa asia olankohautuksella muistaen, ettei kielioppi ole kovin korkeassa kurssissa jääkiekkoympyröissä ;))
Ann Marie, the Moomins that I presume you are watching, the 90's anime version Tanoshii Mumin Ikka, was originally produced in Japanese. It has been shown on Finnish TV dubbed both in Finnish and in Swedish. Our eldest goddaughter used to watch it in Swedish as a small child and was then in raptures when she met Finland's Swedish children for the first time in her life, for they were speking the Moomin languge!
Ann Marie, se muumisarja jota oletan sinun katsovan, 90-luvun anime-versio Tanoshii Mumin Ikka, tuotettiin alkujaan japaniksi. Sitä on näytetty Suomen TV:ssä dubattuna sekä suomeksi että ruotsiksi. Vanhin kummityttömme katsoi sitä pienenä ruotsiksi ja oli sitten ihan haltioissaan tavatessaan ensimmäistä kertaa suomenruotsalaisia lapsia, koska he puhuivat muumien kieltä!
Post by: Solovei on April 21, 2015, 02:44:36 AM
Our eldest goddaughter used to watch it in Swedish as a small child and was then in raptures when she met Finland's Swedish children for the first time in her life, for they were speking the Moomin languge!
Sneaking into this thread to say that that is the cutest thing I have ever heard!
Post by: Sunflower on April 22, 2015, 02:06:56 AM
Sunflower, the Finnish hockey teams have all kinds of songs they've adopted as their "own". There are also lots of people who follow the US sports, so no wonder if our sports scene's musical taste is influenced by it.
1995 was in the hockey circles the year of great celebration for the realisation of a long held dream: our national team Leijonat (Lions) finaly beat Sweden's national team Tre kronor (Three Crowns) in a world championships final. That CD is part of the hype, so they've collected on it the most loved "team songs". (It has also such a glaring grammatical error on its cover that I don't know whether I should laugh or cry. Perhaps the best way to deal with it is just shrug and remember that grammar is not something the hockey scene is usually very interested in ;))
Auringonkukka, suomalaisilla lätkäjoukkueilla on kaikenlaisia "omiksi" otettuja lauluja. Täällä on myös paljon ihmisiä, jotka seuraavat jenkkiurheilua, joten ei liene ihme, jos meidän urheiluympyröidemme musiikkimaku on saanut vaikutteita sieltä.
Thanks for the explanation, Pessi! You know you're an SSSS addict when...
Am I right that "Auringonkukka" is "Sunflower" in Finnish? Does it literally break down as "sun" + "flower," or is the "auringo-" part a cognate with other European languages' terms for "orange" or "gold"?
And what's the big honking grammatical error? You've got me curious. :)
Post by: Cancvas on April 22, 2015, 03:23:18 AM
... wont translate 1st part. Joku muu voi tehdä asianmukaisen kieliopituksen tuolle.
-C
Post by: Lalligaattori on April 22, 2015, 04:18:50 AM
Am I right that "Auringonkukka" is "Sunflower" in Finnish? Does it literally break down as "sun" + "flower," or is the "auringo-" part a cognate with other European languages' terms for "orange" or "gold"?
ooooh i can do this one!
aurinko = sun, auringon = sun's (genitive case), and kukka = flower
so yeah it's 'sun's flower' (as above)
Post by: Ann Marie on April 22, 2015, 08:24:56 PM
*hesitantly waves*
I just started learning Finnish last week, and I'm really excited, kind of intimidated, and kind of overwhelmed. But mostly excited.
Finnish is such a pretty language oh my word ^.^
It is! And welcome! How is it going so far?
I remember a couple occasions from youth, when visiting elderly people on various places in Finland, they actually switched to speak 'youthwise' or 'properly', when they saw me not getting them. This happened even with my own granny when she was (with me) visiting more distant family in the southeast coast. :-)
Oh please I hope this means people will speak clearly for me, too!
Ann Marie, se muumisarja jota oletan sinun katsovan, 90-luvun anime-versio Tanoshii Mumin Ikka, tuotettiin alkujaan japaniksi. Sitä on näytetty Suomen TV:ssä dubattuna sekä suomeksi että ruotsiksi. Vanhin kummityttömme katsoi sitä pienenä ruotsiksi ja oli sitten ihan haltioissaan tavatessaan ensimmäistä kertaa suomenruotsalaisia lapsia, koska he puhuivat muumien kieltä!
That is adorable. <3 Are there other Moomin cartoons? Oh, never mind, I see there have been several. I'm sure we are watching the newest one, and the kids love it. I have in fact been informed that we will be visiting Muumimailma this summer.
Post by: princeofdoom on April 22, 2015, 08:57:28 PM
Post by: Ann Marie on April 23, 2015, 02:10:50 AM
BTW, I'm amused to see that links to actual lessons are titled:
Starry-eyed study of Finnish (Intermediate Finnish 101)
Your honeymoon with the Finnish language (Intermediate Finnish 102)
The unbearable beauty of Finnish grammar (Intermediate Finnish 103)
If this post is redundant, I'll take it down.
*snerk*
Not redundant at all that I can tell, but I have a poor memory, so I really don't mind repeats posts.
I think you secretly want to learn Finnish. ;-)
Post by: Cancvas on April 23, 2015, 05:26:24 AM
Huomenta = good morning (huomen(na) = tomorrow)
Päivää (less formal) or Hyvää päivää = good day
Iltaa (less formal) or Hyvää iltaa = good evening
Öitä (less formal) or hyvää yötä = Good night, usually used when going to sleep
"Hei" is older form than "moi" and they're informal greetings, "heippa" and "moikka" are more of good byes than greeting, but can be used as greeting also. "Hei" is also generic exlamation of (most often) suprise. There are also dialect variants like "Moro" at Tampere region (Häme). Also "terve" (=healthy) can be used (I often do) as greeting. Note that tervehdys translates as greeting or salutation.
-C
Post by: Pessi on April 23, 2015, 08:02:45 AM
And what's the big honking grammatical error? You've got me curious. :)
Sankari lauluja. It should be sankarilauluja. Mistakes with compound words are something that only children and badly educated people (and of course non-natives, but that's a different story and totally ok) do and there really shouldn't be one on the cover of a CD. And that one is even such a simple and obvious one as compound words go.
Post by: AuthorOfLight on April 23, 2015, 08:00:29 PM
It is! And welcome! How is it going so far?Thanks! It's going pretty well, all things considered. I've been super busy, so I haven't had much time to spend on it. :/
Post by: princeofdoom on April 24, 2015, 09:58:48 PM
Post by: starfallz on April 24, 2015, 11:00:20 PM
Post by: Dane Murgen on April 24, 2015, 11:19:26 PM
Post by: Auleliel on April 25, 2015, 01:15:28 AM
I had a question about compound words... When I was looking at the basic learning Finnish stuff, it talked about how wonderful vowel harmony is. And when I am finally learning some Finnish words, and then many of the long words don't have that vowel harmony. Is that what happens with compound words?Yes, the vowel harmony only applies to the parts of the compound word, not the whole compound word.
Example:
Seitsemän + toista = seitsemäntoista
Post by: DB (f.k.a. DaveBro) on April 26, 2015, 08:55:42 AM
M'wife & I will have a chance to test this in Helsinki come early August, so this will be a bit of a cram. Oh well, can't practice flute with tendonitis, so I may as well use the time constructively. :)
LATER EDIT: Starfallz' link to Finnish for Foreigners actually gets into that very issue. Instead of separate voicing, double vowels get the musical equivalent of a tie, extending the duration of the initial voicing.
Post by: Cancvas on April 27, 2015, 03:23:42 AM
Tässä on joitakin joita löysin, avainsanan ollessa "puhesyntetisaattori"
http://www.mikropuhe.com/ (demo)
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suopuhe http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/suopuhe/ + http://www.cstr.ed.ac.uk/projects/festival/ (free, but seems to be bit more work to operate)
Post by: Laufeysdóttir on April 27, 2015, 11:59:59 AM
...I wish I had more time...
just to add some extra info for DaveBro (as always, natives, please correct me if I'm talking rubbish.)
I don't know an awful lot about learning to read English, or phonics, in particular (my children started with Welsh, which has a super phonetic orthography, like Finnish(!) and we now live in Germany...)
BUT, I've seen the books (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Phonic-Stories-Young-Readers-Usborne/dp/0746087705/ref=sr_1_28?ie=UTF8&qid=1430147633&sr=8-28&keywords=phonics+stories) & it looks like it's basically a system for languages with much more complicated sound-to-writing correspondences. (I think?) From what I can tell, you teach spelling patterns that correspond to certain sounds, so you know how to read that letter combination in words(?)
With Finnish, you won't need any of that; sounding out words should be much easier - once you know your language sounds, corresponding letters and the stress pattern (which is also regular!) you can't really go wrong. (It's almost like reading simplified IPA, only with (a few!) different symbols)
you probably missed the bit on phonology (and, implicitly, spelling), there's a section on that in the grammar link (http://users.jyu.fi/~pamakine/kieli/suomi/aanneoppi/indexen.html) that Cancvas posted a while back.
I also think the Wikipedia article on Finnish orthography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_orthography) is pretty good.
@Cancvas, onko se puhesyntetisaattori sama kuin text-to-speech? Olisi kyllä hyödöllistä jos haluat tarkistaa(?) jos lukeat oikeasti...
:uk: @Cancvas, is this puhesyntetisaattori the same as text-to-speech? That would of course be usefeul if you want to check if you're reading correctly...
argh, one of these days, I'm going to try and write a bit more in Finnish. (I'm sort of playing it safe in that I'm only writing stuff that I think I remember... Even that takes way too long! grrr. It's so much more frustrating trying to relearn a language you were once fluent in. and not having time!!)
Post by: DB (f.k.a. DaveBro) on April 27, 2015, 12:24:42 PM
Thanks for pointing me toward those links. What I meant by phonics was indeed sounding out the letters, which I got up to yesterday in Finnish for Foreigners. The Wikipedia article sounds like it would be a good overview, in particular.
Errands to run, so I will have some hours to go before trying anymore new stuff. At least I know where to look now. :) Again, thanks!
Post by: Lalligaattori on April 27, 2015, 02:00:55 PM
I also think the Wikipedia article on Finnish orthography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_orthography) is pretty good.
Quote from: wikipedia
In Finnish, [ä & ö] are collectively referred to as the ääkköset when they need to be distinguished from the ISO basic Latin alphabet; the word is a somewhat playful modification of aakkoset, which is the Finnish for the alphabet as a whole.
punning level - Finnish
Post by: Ann Marie on April 27, 2015, 11:57:58 PM
punning level - Finnish
A pun deliberately writting into the language! XD Amazing.
Sorry to be so absent. I'm too tired to exist this week. Bleh.
Post by: Cancvas on April 28, 2015, 01:43:26 AM
Otherwise, finnish is quite bit written as spoken, but there are few exceptions, most notable ng and nk wich mean this "äng-äänne" (soft and hard, respectively) and not "än-gee" or "än-koo" (maybe like "anger" for ng).
Second one is consonant transfer example "tule tänne" (come here); if you just pronounce tule tänne it sounds clumsy, but its more like "tule(t) tänne" Actual "tulet tänne", with complete "t" at end forms imperative case.
Again somebody wiser than me in grammatics can correct and do proper labeling.
-C
Post by: FinnishViking on April 28, 2015, 12:23:55 PM
I would say that that has something to do with the local dialect since "Tule tänne" is pritty much just said like that and in more unformal cases the "Tuu tänne" is used.
Adding consonants in the end of words is not something i have really noticed or i think is a thing, but im not a real expert on this.
Post by: olavi on April 28, 2015, 12:31:12 PM
The second one is called "rajakahdennus" (among other names) translating to something like "boundary doubling". Unfortunately Wiki has only an entry in Finnish: http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajakahdennus (http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajakahdennus)
Here's a quite extensive writing on the subject in English: https://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/suomi/cab.html (https://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/suomi/cab.html)
@FinnishViking: It's most likely dependent on the local dialect like you said. I can easily find word pairs where this happens (Oulu dialect). The pairs sound like a single word with double consonant in the middle. Saying the words completely separately sounds weird to me.
Post by: Cancvas on April 29, 2015, 05:44:49 AM
-C
Post by: Laufeysdóttir on April 30, 2015, 07:30:01 AM
kiitos tosi paljon teille kaikille!
I read that article on word boundary gemmination (plus a few more on the site that came from). Interesting stuff.
Not that I can remember what people sounded like when I was in Finland 20 years ago...
would it be too nosy of me to ask which parts of Finland our resident native speakers come from? roughly?? I love dialects and regional variation and I'd find it really interesting to relate different pronunciations and words/ expressions to different areas.
Itse olin Keski-Suomessa (vaikken ikinä ollut Keuruussa) ja huomasin että kieliopin linkkejä oli Jyväskylän ja Tampereen yliopistoista. that used to be my home turf!! yay! (the little things that make you happy...)
to the other learners, I think the mentioned "irregularities" are actually still regular just maybe not one-to-one in terms of letter > sound.
ng = ŋ
nk = ŋk
(as in English, only you never pronounce the g: cf ng in bang -no g-sound- as opposed to banger)
the unwritten gemmination (=consonant lengthening) stuff is probably nothing a beginner needs to worry about, it appears to be slightly different in different areas anyway. I'm guessing it's the sort of thing you tune into when you're there and you won't even notice you're doing it.
and now I'll try and stop procrastinating and do some actual work...
Post by: Cancvas on April 30, 2015, 07:52:00 AM
Tavallisesti sanon että "En ole mistään kotoisin." (ilmaisu joka tarkoittaa että ei ole hyvä tai käyttökelpoinen), mutta viimeiset kolmekymmentä vuotta olen ollut Itä-Suomessa ja murre on tarttunut, mukaanlukien siihen liityvä "selkeys".
-C
Post by: FinnishViking on April 30, 2015, 07:53:27 AM
I personally come from Kuopio and i speak a savonian dialect and i guess i noticed the difference since in here it almost seems like we add vocals and remove consonants from any where we can.
For example: "Helmeä" is new expression that directly translated means "Pearly". Here people use it as an expression for either when things are going well or as a sarcastic expression to say when stuff isn't great so one could say: " Eillinen sade oli aika helmeä." which one would translate to "Yesterdays rain was quite nice" with the tone expressing if you actually enjoyed the rain or did you find it horrible.
Regardless where i live the word "Helmeä" which is a formal word has been twisted and has become "Helemee" and these kind of word twists are quite regural here where essentially the end of the word has added adjectives and we also eploy a lot of diftongs because of this.
,But alas i'm not a linguistic expert So don't take this at face value.
Post by: Cancvas on April 30, 2015, 08:02:58 AM
-C
Post by: FinnishViking on April 30, 2015, 08:47:53 AM
Also when it comes to pohjanmaa... well i happen to come from the place that is famous for giving uncertain answers and answering questions with questions so eh, i like playing the savonian stereotype sometimes.
And honestly i enjoy dialects since i find most of them quite funny and i find it fun to speak to eachother with a dialect. Of course with foreigners i tend to try so peak with more of a formal style to not confuse, but i do know a immigrant from africa who spoke with a savonian acccent which was hilarious even in his own opinion.
Post by: olavi on April 30, 2015, 09:23:18 AM
The most distinguishable trait in Oulu dialect is double consonants. We often stretch single consonants and change consonant pairs to a double consonant. The classic example goes: "Ookko nää Oulusta? Pelekääkkö nää polliisia?" which in standard is "Oletko sinä Oulusta? Pelkäätkö sinä poliisia? (Are you from Oulu? Are you afraid of the police?). As you can see, the you personal pronoun is written as "nää" although I personally prefer "sää". Similarly minä is "mää". In contrast the forms used in many southern dialects are "mä" and "sä", showing yet another stretching of the words. This time strething of vowels instead of consonants.
First trait of the Lapland dialects others notice is adding H to a lot of words. This is called "puhua H:n päälle", "to speak on the H". The place of the H in words varies from subdialect to another, but you can still hear when the H is definitely in the wrong place. Southeners sometimes try to imitate it with hilarious results. They seem to miss the spot almost always. ;D Here's a champion both showing how it's done and lameting on the bleak future of the habit: (yes, they actually had a competition)
I can fake some Helsinki dialect, stadi slang (from Swedish stad = city), but I'd be easily caught by someone actually living there. Thus I should leave the pecularities of this to someone who can actually speak the dialect, but here's some notes on its history. While most of the vocabulary comes from Finnish, a lot of the words have origins in Swedish and English. This hasn't always been the case. When Finland was a Grand Duchy of Russia the slang had mostly Swedish words mixed with some Russian and Finnish as half of the city's population was Swedish speakers and the government officials spoke Russian. After independence both of these languages' influences started to drop while being replaced by Finnish words as the demographics of the region switched from 50-50 split to a majority of Finnish speakers. Later at the end of last century English started to mix in and now the language is mostly distorted Finnish with English and Swedish words mixed in.
Edit: while maybe not the best formatted page on the subject I'd like to recommend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colloquial_Finnish for those more advanced learners who are at a stage where they might listen or speak colloquial Finnish in addition to the standard one. The entry should give you an idea on what kind of reductions can be and are done in pretty much every dialect.
Post by: Anton on May 05, 2015, 11:37:46 AM
What I wanted to ask is if some of you know of any children's books, possibly as a pdf i can read online, in finnish. I know I can learn best when I have texts in front of me and work my way through translating them, so that would be a great help :)
Post by: Cancvas on May 05, 2015, 11:44:13 PM
http://peda.net/veraja/kuopio/kansalaisopisto/tilauskurssit/maahanmuuttajat/suomentehokurssi
Then here might be something ?
http://www.childrensbooksforever.com/childrenpages/Finnish.html
-C
Post by: Bobriha on May 07, 2015, 03:27:01 AM
And the reason I entered the thread now is that I wanted to share a funny parallel between Finnish and Russian idiom. In my Finnish-Russian dictionary an article "sydän" (heart) has as an example an idiom "Sydän nousi kurkkuun" (literally "Heart rose into one's throat") to which Russian equivalent "Serdtse upalo" (literally "One's heart fell down") is given.
It's interesting how Finns and Russians by saying their hearts moved in directly opposite directions express one and the same feeling :)
And guess who isn't going to have problems with remembering finnish word for "heart" 8) (as she often has with all the other words, unfortunately)
Post by: Ann Marie on May 07, 2015, 04:38:23 AM
Anton, have you tried reading aRTD in Finnish? I hear it's pretty good. ;D
Post by: Anton on May 08, 2015, 05:06:23 PM
Ann Marie, I have not yet, since I'm really only starting at the very beginning. But I will once I feel confident enough with the basic vocabulary and conjugations ^^
Post by: DB (f.k.a. DaveBro) on May 09, 2015, 10:51:37 PM
Help?
http://cdn.iwastesomuchtime.com/4262015024359.jpg
Post by: olavi on May 10, 2015, 12:01:08 AM
Commenter Brad Petry, an hour ago, offered a link to a six-fold Finnish ambiguity, curious as to its truth.
Help?
http://cdn.iwastesomuchtime.com/4262015024359.jpg
Yeah, I'm afraid this is true. :P
Kuusi: number six; a spruce tree; 2nd singular possessive of Kuu = Moon.
Palaa: to burn or be on fire; 3rd singular of palata = return; partitive of pala = piece.
Post by: Bobriha on May 10, 2015, 06:40:53 AM
Bobriha, no sorry, I speak only german, english, french and a bit of spanish at the moment.Anton, my bad. Still, here is their list of texts in Simple Finnish: http://www.suomesta.ru/topic/finskij-yazyk/teksty-na-uproshhennom-finskom/ (http://www.suomesta.ru/topic/finskij-yazyk/teksty-na-uproshhennom-finskom/). Hope it will be useful.
Post by: DB (f.k.a. DaveBro) on May 10, 2015, 10:01:37 AM
It has inspired me with a new plan for studying Finnish. How to say,
"Honestly, I tried learning some Finnish, but I hurt myself. Do you speak English?"
JK, but all I really expect to have by August are some rote phrases, and very limited comprehension--if only due to time (and my experience cramming Icelandic).
Post by: fella on May 10, 2015, 02:41:31 PM
I've been lurking around in the forum but never posted before :) I'm native Finn, originally from Häme-region, currently living in Espoo (next to Helsinki).
I ran into a funny picture about the multile ways we Finns use the phrase "no niin" and thought I'd post it here:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xta1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/11107184_10152391035687706_2839687652494799388_n.jpg?oh=323b6b6e7d7be2dfd6db821c88c033e2&oe=55CC3F2D&__gda__=1438564156_dc108be8f1c694da529235e2f369700b)
Happy learning everyone ;)
Post by: AuthorOfLight on May 10, 2015, 03:04:58 PM
I ran into a funny picture about the multile ways we Finns use the phrase "no niin" and thought I'd post it here:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xta1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/11107184_10152391035687706_2839687652494799388_n.jpg?oh=323b6b6e7d7be2dfd6db821c88c033e2&oe=55CC3F2D&__gda__=1438564156_dc108be8f1c694da529235e2f369700b)
Happy learning everyone ;)
Oh my land I can't stop laughing....
Post by: Ann Marie on May 10, 2015, 09:49:26 PM
http://cdn.iwastesomuchtime.com/4262015024359.jpg
Just... shoot me now.
Hi,
I've been lurking around in the forum but never posted before :) I'm native Finn, originally from Häme-region, currently living in Espoo (next to Helsinki).
I ran into a funny picture about the multile ways we Finns use the phrase "no niin" and thought I'd post it here:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xta1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/11107184_10152391035687706_2839687652494799388_n.jpg?oh=323b6b6e7d7be2dfd6db821c88c033e2&oe=55CC3F2D&__gda__=1438564156_dc108be8f1c694da529235e2f369700b)
Happy learning everyone ;)
Obviously the next step in my learning process is to memorize this.
Post by: Pessi on May 11, 2015, 04:33:57 AM
Facebook-kavereitani tuo lista on viime aikoina innoittanut niin hilpeyteen kuin vakaviin keskusteluihinkin eri painotusten oikeasta merkityksestä ;)
It's interesting how Finns and Russians by saying their hearts moved in directly opposite directions express one and the same feeling :)
Well, English speaking people write things down but we Finns write them up.
No, englanninkieliset ihmiset kirjoittavat asioita alas mutta me suomalaiset kirjoitamme niitä ylös.
My dialect is the metropol area variant of South Tavastian dialect - spiced with a bunch of old Helsinki slang words and newer loan words - since I've lived all my life in Vantaa and Espoo. This means my S sound's hissing and my Ä has a strong tendency towards A, or so I've at least heard my dialect characterized in addition to the actual wording.
Minun murteeni on pääkaupunkiseudun muunnelma etelähämäläisestä murteesta - maustettuna nipulla Helsingin vanhan slangin sanoja ja uudempia lainasanoja - koska olen asunut koko ikäni Vantaalla ja Espoossa. Se tarkoittaa, että S:ni kuulostaa sihisevältä ja Ä:ni taipuu A:n suuntaan, tai niin olen ainakin kuullut murrettani luonnehdittavan varsinaisen sanaston lisäksi.
Post by: Bobriha on May 11, 2015, 08:27:47 AM
Speaking about this write down thing, in all dictionaries available to me including ungodly Google translator kirjoittaa muistiin goes first. Is there any difference between kirjoittaa muistiin and kirjoittaa ylös?
Post by: olavi on May 11, 2015, 09:32:16 AM
So whatever Finn does and wherever Finn (or at least parts of the Finn) goes, it is always upward :) . Kind of a good habit.
Speaking about this write down thing, in all dictionaries available to me including ungodly Google translator kirjoittaa muistiin goes first. Is there any difference between kirjoittaa muistiin and kirjoittaa ylös?
Not really. It's just a more direct way of saying it (muisti = memory; muistiin = into memory).
I did a quick search for the writing things "up" in Finnish and it seems it's a loan phrase from Swedish (skriva upp). The language board keeping the official guidelines recommends using "kirjoittaa muistiin" although both are understood and used widely.
Post by: Bobriha on May 12, 2015, 12:29:37 PM
And here goes another question that concerns me a lot. And I think I'll try it in Finnish.
Jos minä haluan kiittää jonkin kuin ylempänä (i.e., thank you for smth.) suomeksi , millainen sija on tarvis?
Hope the phrase doesn't sounds too odd...
Post by: olavi on May 12, 2015, 04:08:06 PM
Olavi, thank you very much for explanation and in whole for this great amount of participation in us lazy learners!
And here goes another question that concerns me a lot. And I think I'll try it in Finnish.
Jos minä haluan kiittää jonkin kuin ylempänä (i.e., thank you for smth.) suomeksi , millainen sija on tarvis?
Hope the phrase doesn't sounds too odd...
Ei kestä! :) It helps my own language studies too to finally figure out what's going on in my own language. I was a lazy student when I was younger.
The usual way to say thanks uses elative: Kiitos jostain = Thanks for something (jostain is the elative of jokin = something)
Apart from special cases like above (right now I can't even think of an another) the suffix is -sta/-stä. Kiitos avusta = Thanks for the help; Kiitos kyydistä = Thanks for the ride; Kiitos lahjasta = Thanks for the gift.
Post by: Ana Nymus on May 13, 2015, 10:29:39 PM
Post by: Ann Marie on May 14, 2015, 12:28:42 AM
Hello! I'm new here (I have recently received squirrel cookies) and am attempting to learn Finnish. Do any of you know where I can find information about Finnish cases? They're very confusing to me, and while I've found plenty on how to form them, an explanation on how to use them still escapes me. If anyone has links to share, they would be much appreciated!ll
Squirrel cookies! I hope you got the kind that don't bite back.
I've been using this page, but there could be better ones:
https://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/finnish-cases.html
Post by: Bobriha on May 14, 2015, 03:40:08 AM
Olavi, kiitos selityksestä! Minun täytyy lukea paikallisijaista muuta kertaa...
Post by: Ann Marie on May 15, 2015, 04:14:47 AM
Suomi on vaikea.
*itkee*
eta: Well, I managed one sentence, and wrote the rest in English. Hopefully didn't embarrass myself too badly.
Now, bed! zzzzzzzz
Post by: Divra on May 15, 2015, 03:14:21 PM
Hi,
I've been lurking around in the forum but never posted before :) I'm native Finn, originally from Häme-region, currently living in Espoo (next to Helsinki).
I ran into a funny picture about the multile ways we Finns use the phrase "no niin" and thought I'd post it here:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xta1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/11107184_10152391035687706_2839687652494799388_n.jpg?oh=323b6b6e7d7be2dfd6db821c88c033e2&oe=55CC3F2D&__gda__=1438564156_dc108be8f1c694da529235e2f369700b)
Happy learning everyone ;)
Hi, fella! Have some squirrel cookies!
Now, while you're munching, would you mind popping over to the Introduction thread and telling us a bit about who you are?
Post by: FinnishViking on May 15, 2015, 04:01:29 PM
Yritän kirjoittaa kirje.
Suomi on vaikea.
*itkee*
eta: Well, I managed one sentence, and wrote the rest in English. Hopefully didn't embarrass myself too badly.
Now, bed! zzzzzzzz
Well not too bad honestly. Really you only at least here missed the Imperfect form of "Yritän" which would be "Yritin", You should use the genetive form to signify that you were writing a letter so "Kirje" turns to "Kirjeen" and lastly "Vaikea" should be "Vaikeaa".
Really these are pritty minor mistakes that just get ironed out after hearing and using the language more so you shouldn't be troubled. :)
Post by: Ana Nymus on May 15, 2015, 05:05:38 PM
Post by: Ann Marie on May 15, 2015, 06:03:34 PM
Well not too bad honestly. Really you only at least here missed the Imperfect form of "Yritän" which would be "Yritin", You should use the genetive form to signify that you were writing a letter so "Kirje" turns to "Kirjeen" and lastly "Vaikea" should be "Vaikeaa".
Really these are pritty minor mistakes that just get ironed out after hearing and using the language more so you shouldn't be troubled. :)
Wait wait wait, why would I use the imperfect? I hadn't written the letter; I was still writing it.
Obviously I don't understand cases at all. *hangs head* Must study more, if I can find the time. And actually use Finnish more instead of just trying to memorize stuff.
I mean, thank you for the feedback! I really appreciate it.
Post by: FinnishViking on May 15, 2015, 06:26:08 PM
If you were writing the letter at that moment it would be "Yritän kirjoittaa kirjettä." where kirje transforms to a "partitiivi" which essentially shows that the object is in middle of some ongoing action.
So for example: Ostan jonkin verran leipää / I'm buying some bread.
Here the base form Leipä transforms to Leipää because it is part of an action. I at least think that's how it goes.
Post by: Ann Marie on May 15, 2015, 07:13:28 PM
Post by: Bobriha on May 16, 2015, 09:54:37 AM
Post by: Ann Marie on May 16, 2015, 03:15:47 PM
Well, when you are learning new language, stuff like making mistakes and forgetting words/grammar/everything just happens. Moreover, it happens all the time. It is nothing to loose your heart of.
Kiitos. You are right of course. I have a history of setting goals unreasonably high, then feeling terrible when I don't reach them. Have to remember that it's most important to keep going, even if I have to take baby steps instead of giant ones.
Post by: Bobriha on May 19, 2015, 01:00:52 PM
Post by: Laufey on May 19, 2015, 01:08:39 PM
Pyydän apua. Mitä ovat kuuleet merkitsee? En voi löytää kieliopista mitään samannäköistä :(. Ehkä olen tyhmä...
Looks like a typo - should it maybe be "ovat kuulleet"? In that form it would mean "they have heard".
Post by: Bobriha on May 19, 2015, 01:22:48 PM
Minä olen varmasti tyhmä. Ja hidas! :-[
Post by: Laufey on May 19, 2015, 01:50:52 PM
Spoiler: show
It was just a typo.Post by: Bobriha on May 19, 2015, 02:08:09 PM
Post by: Laufey on May 19, 2015, 02:30:30 PM
Spoiler: show
Post by: Pessi on May 22, 2015, 01:13:20 AM
So for example: Ostan jonkin verran leipää / I'm buying some bread.
Here the base form Leipä transforms to Leipää because it is part of an action. I at least think that's how it goes.
Or because it's an undefined part of a bigger whole. Like "lautasella on puuroa", there's porridge on the plate -> there's an undifined part of a bigger unity of porridge on the plate, compared to "puuro on lautasella", the porridge is on the plate -> it's all the porridge that's been cooked or an otherwise specified amount/sort of porridge.
Finnish: tai koska se on epämääräinen osa isompaa kokonaisuutta. Niin kuin "lautasella on puuroa", there's porridge on the plate -> lauatsella on määrittämätön osa isommasta puurokoknaisuudesta, verrattuna lauseeseen "puuro on lautasella", The porridge is on the plate -> kyseessä on koko keitetty puuroannos tai muuten määritelty puuromäärä/-laji.
It has inspired me with a new plan for studying Finnish. How to say,
"Honestly, I tried learning some Finnish, but I hurt myself. Do you speak English?"
"Oikeasti, yritin oppia vähän suomea, mutta satutin itseni. Puhutko englantia?" ;)
Post by: Ann Marie on May 22, 2015, 05:41:22 AM
Tytärnija hyväksyttiin laulukurssi. Ah, I was going to write more in Finnish but it's nearly 3am. Days need to be about 8 hours longer.
Post by: Kuuskytkolme on May 22, 2015, 08:26:21 AM
Tytärnija hyväksyttiin laulukurssi.Did you mean "Tyttäreni hyväksyttiin laulukurssille"? You should check out how vowel harmony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vowel_harmony#Finnish) and consonant gradation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonant_gradation#Finnish) work in Finnish.
The -ja/jä ending corresponds to the -er/or ending in English, in other words it makes a noun out of a verb (dance -> dancer/tanssia -> tanssija, visit -> visitor/käydä -> kävijä) so I don't know what you were trying to express with it.
---
Tarkoititko "Tyttäreni hyväksyttiin laulukurssille?" Sinun kannattaisi tarkistaa miten vokaalisointu (http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vokaalisointu#Suomen_kielen_vokaalisointu) ja astevaihtelu (http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astevaihtelu) toimivat suomessa.
-ja/jä loppu vastaa englannin -er/-or loppua, toisin sanoen se tekee substantiivista verbin (dance -> dancer/tanssia -> tanssija, visit -> visitor/käydä -> kävijä) joten en tiedä mitä yritit ilmaista sillä.
Post by: Ann Marie on May 22, 2015, 02:53:58 PM
Did you mean "Tyttäreni hyväksyttiin laulukurssille"?
I'm sure I did. :-P
Quote
You should check out how vowel harmony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vowel_harmony#Finnish) and consonant gradation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonant_gradation#Finnish) work in Finnish.
Yay links! Kiitos.
Quote
The -ja/jä ending corresponds to the -er/or ending in English, in other words it makes a noun out of a verb (dance -> dancer/tanssia -> tanssija, visit -> visitor/käydä -> kävijä) so I don't know what you were trying to express with it.
I... Honestly have no idea where... Oh! I remember. When I have my computer I'll try to explain where I got that, it's too hard for me to do stuff on my phone.
Thank you for the feedback. I need so much help, heh.
---
Quote
Tarkoititko "Tyttäreni hyväksyttiin laulukurssille?" Sinun kannattaisi tarkistaa miten vokaalisointu (http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vokaalisointu#Suomen_kielen_vokaalisointu) ja astevaihtelu (http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astevaihtelu) toimivat suomessa.
-ja/jä loppu vastaa englannin -er/-or loppua, toisin sanoen se tekee substantiivista verbin (dance -> dancer/tanssia -> tanssija, visit -> visitor/käydä -> kävijä) joten en tiedä mitä yritit ilmaista sillä.
Post by: Ann Marie on May 22, 2015, 10:08:37 PM
I still don't get why the t was doubled in the middle. It's not even at the end of the word... *whimpers* there's so much I don't understand. Um, I mean, I will go look at those links now, since apparently the page I'm mostly using for a reference is not sufficient for me.
Post by: Pessi on May 23, 2015, 03:10:28 AM
Hei Pessi! Mitä kuuluu? You haven't been here much lately.
Kiitos kysymästä, kuuluu ihan hyvää. On vain ollut kiirettä ja sitten sain kevätflunssan enkä jaksanut tehdä oikein mitään.
Thank you for asking, I'm fine. I've just been busy and then I got ill and didn't have the energy to do anything.
Quote
Tytärnija hyväksyttiin laulukurssi.
Onnittelut! Toivottavasti kurssista tulee maanmainio =)
Congratulations! I wish the course will be superb =)
(Älä sure suomen kieliopin hankaluutta, harva suomalainenkaan sitä osaa muuten kuin näppituntumalla. Tärkeintä lienee tulla ymmärretyksi.)
(Don't worry about the difficulty of Finnish grammar, very few Finns themselves know it exept by gut feeling. The most important thing is that you get understood.)
Post by: Ann Marie on May 24, 2015, 07:01:34 PM
Anteeksi, I'm feeling too dull today to even attempt finnish. Maybe after I've had some coffee.
Post by: SugaAndSpice on May 27, 2015, 10:34:32 PM
Post by: Sunflower on May 28, 2015, 12:23:39 AM
I iz a MURICAN, and apparently its really hard to learn Finnish for Americans, but I really want to! A friend and I want to learn together. I need help on where to start.
Start at this post early in this very thread: https://ssssforum.com/index.php?topic=313.msg21294#msg21294
And consult this very helpful list of resources shared by another poster in this thread:
http://anttilearnslanguages.tumblr.com/post/79749633621/learning-finnish-online
And, of course, there are the Moomins (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yzbRFNc2Dk).
Post by: Pessi on May 28, 2015, 02:01:14 AM
Post by: Ann Marie on May 28, 2015, 02:17:59 AM
If the Moomins is not yoor thing (I personally hate that anime version)
Why do you hate the anime version? And what version do you like, if any?
Post by: Pessi on May 28, 2015, 06:52:38 AM
As a kid I used to watch and love a Polish piece animation originally called Opowiadania Muminków, known in Finland as Muumien maailma. The episodes I found in Youtube had very bad sound quality, but in 2010 a new movie Muumi ja punainen pyrstötähti, "Moomin and the Red Comet" was produced in Finland in the same style (looks like I wasn't the only one who loved the 70's - 80's Polish series ;)). You can watch the trailer here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELQf1RtZ948) to get an idea of what it looks like.
Post by: Bobriha on May 28, 2015, 09:08:11 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgABDocRd0o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgABDocRd0o) Design of this one has nothing in common with original Tove Jansson's art. I still like it, though, because the artist is Евгения Стерлигова (Eugenia Sterligova) and I like Sterligova.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLaRUgEfseQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLaRUgEfseQ) And this puppet animation is more accustomed
Post by: Ann Marie on May 29, 2015, 01:16:20 AM
The anime moomins were the first we were exposed to, so I guess we don't know any better. I like it, and my younger daughter loves it, but will only watch in English so far. I think I like the English voices better than the Finnish.
Post by: Pessi on May 29, 2015, 01:43:31 AM
Ann Marie, I guess it's just natural to feel the first animated version you've seen is "the right one" and then compare every other version with it. I liked the Polish animation so much in my childhood that the Japanese felt lame, unmagical and overtly sweet compared to it, but I could well imagine that for someone who has seen the anime first the Polish style piece animation may in turn seem clumsy and weird.
(Wooops, this was supposed to be The Finnish Learning Thread. Hope it helps if I write everything in Finnish as well...)
Kiitos linkeistä, Bobriha, varsinkin ensimmäinen on mainio. Muistuttaa paljon Myyrää (The Little Mole), joka on yksi lasteni lempiohjelmista (ja oli minunkin lapsena) =)
Ann Marie, lienee vain luonnollista, että ensimmäinen animoitu versio jonka näkee on "se oikea", johon sitten vertaa kaikkia muita versioita. Pidin puolalaisanimaatiosta lapsena niin paljon, että japanilainen tuntui kesyltä, lumottomalta ja ylisöpöltä verrattuna siihen, mutta voin hyvin kuvitella, että animeversion ensin nähneen silmissä puolalaistyylinen pala-animaatio saattaa vuorostaan näyttää kömpelöltä ja oudolta.
Post by: Bobriha on May 29, 2015, 10:08:10 AM
Pessi, kiitos vastauksesta! Totuudeksi, tässä monet moittivat sitä elokuvaa, koska "on ihan väärää näköistä" :(. Sitä, että Mumin isänmaasta ihminen pitää siitä, on mainioakin. Ja puolalaisen animaatio on kivaa!
Ja, tänä keskiviikkona me (minä ja isäni) ovat poimineet ensimmaista sientä. Tattia :o. En minä koskaan tavannut ne niin aikaisin enkä jopa uskonut ne voivat kasvaa toukokuussa.
Post by: viola on May 29, 2015, 11:30:32 PM
I have a link for you: http://www.suberic.net/~tahnan/finnish.html
I don't think it's been posted here, but I could have missed it. It could also be somewhere else.
As for me, I can recognize the meaning of three Finnish words: ei, kiitos, and hyvää yötä (actually that's four words... math is my worst class). I can also sing along with the chorus of the song Kiitos ei ole kirosana, so I guess that counts for something.
Post by: FinnishViking on May 30, 2015, 06:48:00 AM
The japanise girl even talked about how when she told her friends that she was to go to finland who then said: "Don't go to Finland it's gold and dark over there!"... Good advice ;D
Post by: ryagami on May 30, 2015, 08:15:33 AM
Minä aloitin opiskella suomen kielen! Se on erittäin vaiken! Jos teen vihreen, kerro minulle!
Post by: Auleliel on May 30, 2015, 12:23:59 PM
Post by: Pessi on May 30, 2015, 02:42:08 PM
pystyä = to be able to
ryagami, aloit siis opiskella suomen kieltä. Myönnän auliisti, että se on aika vaikeaa. Teit virheen kirjainten järjestyksen kanssa, mutta sellaista sattuu eikä se ole vakavaa.
ryagami, so you started studying Finnish. I freely admit it's quite difficult. You made a mistake with the order of the lettering, but that happens and it's not serious.
Post by: Ana Nymus on May 30, 2015, 04:20:18 PM
Quote
I have a link for you: http://www.suberic.net/~tahnan/finnish.html
That is hilarious! :)
Post by: Ann Marie on May 30, 2015, 06:43:47 PM
I have a link for you: http://www.suberic.net/~tahnan/finnish.html
I don't think it's been posted here, but I could have missed it. It could also be somewhere else.
Suomi on eniten paras kieli!
Post by: Laufey on May 30, 2015, 07:04:51 PM
Suomi on eniten paras kieli!
That's the best pun I've seen on this forum and that's saying something. :D
Post by: viola on May 30, 2015, 09:32:31 PM
That's the best pun I've seen on this forum and that's saying something. :D
What does it say? Is it possible to explain the pun in English?
Post by: ryagami on May 30, 2015, 10:16:22 PM
What does it say? Is it possible to explain the pun in English?It means "Finnish is the most best language". xD
But I am not sure what the pun is.
Post by: Ann Marie on May 31, 2015, 02:36:13 AM
Post by: JoB on May 31, 2015, 07:20:12 AM
It means "Finnish is the most best language". xDNorwegian Sigrun using that wording all the time while the Finns just silently make it proper grammar for themselves sounds about right. :D
But I am not sure what the pun is.
Post by: ryagami on May 31, 2015, 10:24:28 AM
voida = to can
pystyä = to be able to
ryagami, aloit siis opiskella suomen kieltä. Myönnän auliisti, että se on aika vaikeaa. Teit virheen kirjainten järjestyksen kanssa, mutta sellaista sattuu eikä se ole vakavaa.
ryagami, so you started studying Finnish. I freely admit it's quite difficult. You made a mistake with the order of the lettering, but that happens and it's not serious.
Kiitos! "Kieltä" onko partitiivissa? Joka tapauksessa on "vaikeaa"?
Post by: Pessi on June 01, 2015, 04:17:53 AM
Tattia :o. En minä koskaan tavannut ne niin aikaisin enkä jopa uskonut ne voivat kasvaa toukokuussa.
Tatteja toukokuussa O_o Nyt ovat maailmankirjat sekaisin. Ainoat syötävät sienet mitä meiltä päin tällä hetkellä löytyy ovat korvasienet, ja niitäkin löysin vain yhden.
Boletes in May O_o Now "the books of world are in disorder". The only edible mushrooms that can be found around here at the moment are lorchels, and even of those I've only found one.
I have a link for you: http://www.suberic.net/~tahnan/finnish.html
Niin totta =)
So true =)
"Kieltä" onko partitiivissa? Joka tapauksessa on "vaikeaa"?
Tuota noin... Minun mielestäni molemmat ovat partitiivissa, mutta kielioppini on vähän ruosteessa.
Well... In my opinion they are both in partitive, but my grammar is a little rusty.
Post by: Bobriha on June 01, 2015, 10:00:35 AM
P.S. Tällä illalla aion opiskella (vai opiskelemaan?) monikon partitiivia, toivottakaa minulle onnea! >_<
Post by: Auleliel on June 01, 2015, 10:13:35 AM
voida = to canIn English "can" and "be able to" have pretty much the same meaning, so I am still a bit confused. Do they mean the same in Finnish, too? Or are they used in different situations?
pystyä = to be able to
Sorry... I get confused really easily...
Post by: JoB on June 01, 2015, 04:27:10 PM
In English "can" and "be able to" have pretty much the same meaningUmmmh not that that's likely to apply here, but I have been taught the idiom of "do what you can and can what you can't" ...
Post by: Sunflower on June 01, 2015, 05:32:51 PM
voida = to can
pystyä = to be able to
I take it "voida" doesn't mean "can" in the sense of "preserve [fruit, tomatoes, etc.] in cans, jars, or bottles"? (I ask because I actually do know how to can and have the equipment for it, from years of living out in the country.)
Post by: ryagami on June 01, 2015, 07:11:51 PM
I take it "voida" doesn't mean "can" in the sense of "preserve [fruit, tomatoes, etc.] in cans, jars, or bottles"? (I ask because I actually do know how to can and have the equipment for it, from years of living out in the country.)
I think that's "tölkittää". :D
Post by: Pessi on June 02, 2015, 02:41:46 AM
In English "can" and "be able to" have pretty much the same meaning, so I am still a bit confused. Do they mean the same in Finnish, too? Or are they used in different situations?
Sorry... I get confused really easily...
They are pretty much the same in Finnish too. The only difference I see is that whether you "voit" to do something may depend on other people's permission, whether you "pystyt" to do something is up to your own resources. Isn't thst the same in English? You may ask someone "can I take this book" but you wouldn't ask them "am I able to take this book" because that's something you self know best.
And yes, "can" in sense of preserving things is indeed "tölkittää", literally to put in tölkki = a can.
Post by: Sunflower on June 02, 2015, 03:09:53 AM
They are pretty much the same in Finnish too. The only difference I see is that whether you "voit" to do something may depend on other people's permission, whether you "pystyt" to do something is up to your own resources. Isn't that the same in English? You may ask someone "can I take this book" but you wouldn't ask them "am I able to take this book" because that's something you yourself know best.
Actually, that's more the distinction between "can" and "may" -- "can" implying literal, physical capability but "may" implying permission.
"Mom, can I have a cookie?"
"You mean, 'May I have a cookie?'"
Or in SSSS terms, maybe Reynir *can* help (or "is able to help" -- it's practically synonymous) -- but he'd better ask Tuuri if he *may* help her.
The confusing thing is that "may" is also an auxiliary verb indicating a hypothetical present or future state. When David Byrne sings, "You may find yourself (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98AJUj-qxHI) in another part of the world," he's not granting permission but speculating about the future.
Post by: Auleliel on June 02, 2015, 03:21:47 AM
They are pretty much the same in Finnish too. The only difference I see is that whether you "voit" to do something may depend on other people's permission, whether you "pystyt" to do something is up to your own resources. Isn't thst the same in English? You may ask someone "can I take this book" but you wouldn't ask them "am I able to take this book" because that's something you self know best.It is true that for permission, can is more common than be able to, but I know of situations when people have used be able to when asking for permission to indicate their hesitation to ask about that permission.
And yes, "can" in sense of preserving things is indeed "tölkittää", literally to put in tölkki = a can.
And can can be used in so many situations that it is almost useless when making distinctions. :-\
But permission vs ability is a very helpful way to explain the difference for voida vs pystyä. I think I get it now.
Kiitos.
Post by: Pessi on June 02, 2015, 04:15:56 AM
The confusing thing is that "may" is also an auxiliary verb indicating a hypothetical present or future state. When David Byrne sings, "You may find yourself (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98AJUj-qxHI) in another part of the world," he's not granting permission but speculating about the future.
Languages <3 They never work similarly.
In Finnish people actually ask for permission more with the verb "saada", to get, than "voida", for the same reason as in English "may" is preferred to "can": voida can also be understood to mean an ability to do something rather than having a permission to do so. "Saanko ottaa tämän kirjan" = do I get to take this book. But in army we were tought that soldiers never get anything, they only can ("armeijassa ei saada, armeijassa voidaan"), so when asking for something we had to use "voida". I don't know why, I guess it's just one of those "you can do things in two ways, the smart way or the army way" things.
On the other hand the verb used for something that may happen is "saattaa" (which is totally homonymoys to the verb that means "to escort/to accompany", but has a different meaning). Saattaa olla = may be.
Post by: Ann Marie on June 02, 2015, 04:31:23 AM
Norwegian Sigrun using that wording all the time while the Finns just silently make it proper grammar for themselves sounds about right. :D
That is frighteningly plausible.
Ok, this construction: I/he/she/you/they/we should/have to do a thing. They are using Minun/sinun/hänen etc täytyy/pitaisi antaa coffee/beer/wine/whatever minulle/hänelle/sinulle etc. Except the object(I think? what is grammar) ending varies: kahvi, kahviä, or kahvin. Why?
Suomeni on vielä kova huono. Tiedän minun täytyy kirjoitaa ennemän, mutta minulle ei ole riitävä aika.
Post by: Cancvas on June 02, 2015, 04:48:07 AM
Also, Ann Marie your "Suomi on eniten paras kieli." would be quite correctly translated with "most best", as more conventional expression would have been "Suomi on kaikkein paras kieli."
-C
Post by: starfallz on June 02, 2015, 07:23:28 AM
Voida = To be able to / have the possibility or opportunity to
Saada = to be allowed to / to get or receive
Osata = to know how to
Pystyä / kyetä = very similar to voida. To be physically able to
Post by: Pessi on June 02, 2015, 07:57:03 AM
Ok, this construction: I/he/she/you/they/we should/have to do a thing. They are using Minun/sinun/hänen etc täytyy/pitaisi antaa coffee/beer/wine/whatever minulle/hänelle/sinulle etc. Except the object(I think? what is grammar) ending varies: kahvi, kahviä, or kahvin. Why?
There's a difference in the meaning.
"Minun pitäisi antaa hänelle kahvi" means (at least to me) "I should give her/him the coffee" aka a certain, specified coffee, like a cup of coffee poured especially for that person. It could also mean "I should give her/him the coffee package".
"Minun pitäisi antaa hänelle kahvia" means "I should give her/him (some) coffee" aka just some unspecified coffee that may not even have been cooked yet.
"Minun pitäisi antaa hänelle kahvin" is wrong, the -n form just doesn't go with conditional modus. But it's right if you say say "Annan hänelle kahvin", "I give her/him the coffee" (and saying "annan hänelle kahvi" is wrong).
Also, when asking "Could I have this?", is about "Voinko saada tämän?"
Isn't it rather "Voisinko saada tämän", a conditional?
starfallz, that's a good list.
Post by: Cancvas on June 02, 2015, 08:21:07 AM
(Ehkä minun pitäisi opetella tekemään lainaukset, mutta ei pyramideja.)
Pessi
"Voisinko" is likely formally correct, but I don't really see difference in meaning compared to "Voinko". Maybe just slight tone difference, with "voisinko" expressing more need for target of request. Could also be dialect issue.
-C
Post by: Pessi on June 02, 2015, 09:22:49 AM
Pessi
"Voisinko" is likely formally correct, but I don't really see difference in meaning compared to "Voinko". Maybe just slight tone difference, with "voisinko" expressing more need for target of request. Could also be dialect issue.
It's not a dialect issue, it's a purely grammatical issue concerning the modus of the word. "Voinko" is indicative, "voisinko" conditional. "Voinko" = can I, "voisinko" = could I.
Post by: Bobriha on June 03, 2015, 11:49:17 AM
Älä muista nimeni,
älä muista sekä kasini, että jalkani,
koska aion unohtaa niiden itse,
koska aion tehdä minulle
uudet kadet, jalat ja nimen.
Jos tulet minulle, kun tapaamme taas,
siis tiedän, että sinä rakastat minua.
Älä pyydä minua muistamaan sinut,
älä kirjoita kämmenelläni
sinun puhelimesi, nimesi, osoitteesi.
Jos en juoksen pois sinusta, kun tapaamme taas,
Tiedät sitten, että rakastan sinua.
(Oikaisut olisivat hyviä)
Post by: Pessi on June 03, 2015, 02:27:38 PM
:uk: A fine poem, I like it. If you really want corrections, grammatically correct version would be approximately like this:
Älä muista nimeäni,
älä muista kasiäni tai jalkojani,
koska aion unohtaa ne itse,
koska aion tehdä itselleni
uudet kädet, jalat ja nimen.
Jos tulet luokseni ["to me", as I think you meant?], kun tapaamme taas,
tiedän, että sinä rakastat minua.
Älä pyydä minua muistamaan sinua,
älä kirjoita kämmenelleni
sinun puhelinnumeroasi, nimeäsi, osoitettasi.
Jos en juokse pois luotasi, kun tapaamme taas,
tiedät sitten, että rakastan sinua.
:finland: Minun mielestäni runo on täysin ymmärrettävä sellaisenaankin, joten oikaisujen tarve on mielestäni vähän kyseenalainen. Runoissa kun ei tarvitse kieliopista niin kauheasti välittää.
:uk: In my opinion the poem is perfectly comprehensible as it is, so the need for correction is imo questionable. After all you don't need to care about grammar so terribly with poems.
Post by: Bobriha on June 04, 2015, 10:42:29 AM
Lisäksi, minä en ymmärtänyt posessiivisuffikseja, joita ovat partitiivin kanssa, kiitos esimerkkeista!
Post by: viola on June 05, 2015, 07:39:42 AM
The context would be a sentence like: 'Can you please help me with this?' Or 'Please pass me that'.
Post by: Laufey on June 05, 2015, 08:12:10 AM
A question to those who are knowledgeable about Finnish: How do you say please in Finnish? Is there a word for please in Finnish? (there is no word for please in Icelandic so I was wondering)
The context would be a sentence like: 'Can you please help me with this?' Or 'Please pass me that'.
There's no one word for please in Finnish, and the usual phrase "ole hyvä" (lit. transl. "be good") may even come across badly if used in normal speech since it may sound overtly polite/condescending. Finns use conditional instead to mark politeness in requests, so:
Can you help me with this? = Autatko minua tässä/voitko auttaa minua tässä?
Can you please help me with this? = Auttaisitko minua tässä? (conditional)
Pass me that. = Ojenna minulle tuo.
Please pass me that. = Ojentaisitko minulle tuon? (conditional)
Icelandic works with the same idea by the way ("Geturðu/gætirðu hjálpað mér... geturðu/gætirðu réttað mér..."), and similarly you can use both the polite and the less polite versions in daily speech, especially when talking to people you know. Politeness is not too hard in Finnish as long as you remember to avoid trying to be polite.
Uh, it made more sense when I was thinking of it than when I wrote it down...
Post by: viola on June 05, 2015, 09:08:04 AM
There's no one word for please in Finnish, and the usual phrase "ole hyvä" (lit. transl. "be good") may even come across badly if used in normal speech since it may sound overtly polite/condescending. Finns use conditional instead to mark politeness in requests, so:
Can you help me with this? = Autatko minua tässä/voitko auttaa minua tässä?
Can you please help me with this? = Auttaisitko minua tässä? (conditional)
Pass me that. = Ojenna minulle tuo.
Please pass me that. = Ojentaisitko minulle tuon? (conditional)
Icelandic works with the same idea by the way ("Geturðu/gætirðu hjálpað mér... geturðu/gætirðu réttað mér..."), and similarly you can use both the polite and the less polite versions in daily speech, especially when talking to people you know. Politeness is not too hard in Finnish as long as you remember to avoid trying to be polite.
Uh, it made more sense when I was thinking of it than when I wrote it down...
No that makes perfect sense. To me at least. Kiitos! :)
Post by: Pessi on June 05, 2015, 03:41:57 PM
:uk: You can also say "be kind and help".
:finland: Yritän juuri opettaa näitä asioita viisivuotiaalleni. Siis että kun hän haluaa vaikka leivän, oikea tapa ei ole äyskäistä "anna leipä!" vaan kysyä "saisinko leivän" tai edes "saanko leivän".
:uk: I'm just trying to teach these things to my five year old. Like when he wants a sandwich, the right way is not to bark "give sandwich!" but to ask "could I have a sandwich" or at least "can I have a sandwich".
:finland: Suomen kielessä ei muuten ole erikseen sanoja anteeksipyynnölle, kun on esim. loukannut jotakuta, ja anteeksipyynnölle, kun haluaa vaikkapa ohittaa jonkun kapeassa käytävässä. Molemmissa tilanteissa sanotaan "anteeksi".
:uk: Finnish language btw doesn't have separate words for saying sorry like when you have hurt someone's feelings and saying excuse me like when you want to get past someone in a narrow passage. In both situations you say "anteeksi".
Post by: Ann Marie on June 05, 2015, 11:24:54 PM
Finns use conditional instead to mark politeness in requests
Ohhh that is so helpful!
Quote
Politeness is not too hard in Finnish as long as you remember to avoid trying to be polite.
Um...
:finland: Voi myös sanoa "ole kiltti ja auta".
:uk: You can also say "be kind and help".
...I see what you mean. ;D
Post by: Kuuskytkolme on June 06, 2015, 04:27:36 AM
Of course you can always be very polite and combine the conditional and ole kiltti and say "Would you be kind and close the window?"
Post by: Pessi on June 06, 2015, 07:24:37 AM
:uk: Goes quite far to the area of formal language in that case. Use the wrong tone with that and it can be understood as a slight reproof for the person not realizing her/himself that the window should be closed. Of course "would you be so kind as to close the window" is already almost pure reproof ;)
Post by: Ann Marie on June 07, 2015, 03:36:21 AM
Of course "would you be so kind as to close the window" is already almost pure reproof ;)
Herranjestas. Everything I say is going to be taken as a passive-aggressive dig. ...Oh well.
*resigned to being identified as an ugly american*
Post by: Pessi on June 07, 2015, 10:50:06 AM
:uk: No it isn't Ann Marie =D In your case people will hear you are not born Finnish and assume this is how you've been taught to speak: nicely and politely - especially since you probably speak correct standard language instead of colloquial language.
Post by: Bobriha on June 07, 2015, 11:59:37 AM
Say, in Russian, by etiquette, one should say Вы (Vy) (which is 2nd person plural) to any person they are not gotten a permission to say ты (2nd person singular) from, regardless of age (well, maybe except very tiny children - there are not so many people who can act all formal and cold in front of cute 5 or 10 years old's), gender or social status.
As far as I know, the situation is different in Finnish?
Post by: Laufey on June 07, 2015, 12:08:46 PM
Post by: Pessi on June 07, 2015, 01:31:00 PM
The plural you (te) is the polite option, but it also sounds old-fashioned and is barely in use anymore.
:finland: Käyttöympäristöt nykyään: armeija, kaikkein virallisimmat tilaisuudet tyyliin presidentin vastaanotto ja asiakaspalvelutilanteet, joissa asiakas on vanha (monet vanhoistakin kyllä pyytävät sinuttelemaan) tai jotka tapahtuvat jossain ns. luksusliikkeessä, jossa yritetään luoda jonkinlaista hienostunutta ilmapiiriä.
:uk: Environments where used nowadays: army, the most formal events like a presidential reception and customer service situations where the customer is old (though many old people too ask to be called you) or which happen in some so called luxury shop where some kind of refined atmosphere is being aimed at.
Post by: Ann Marie on June 07, 2015, 07:04:15 PM
kun puhut hyvin todennäköisestikorrektiaturmeltu yleiskieltä etkä puhekieltä.
Quote
you probably speakcorrectmangled standard language instead of colloquial language.
Fixed that for you. :D
Post by: Pessi on June 08, 2015, 05:50:48 AM
:uk: Ann Marie, few Finns either can speak totally flawless standard language just like that =)
:finland: Bobriha, olenko ymmärtänyt oikein, että Venäjällä vain läheisiä ystäviä kutsutaan etunimellä, muista pitää sen lisäksi käyttää vähintään isännimeä? Ja että Venäjällä asuville ulkomaalaisillekin yleensä muodostetaan enemmin tai myöhemmin isännimi heidän kanssaan tekemisissä olevien toimesta, jotta jokapäiväinen kanssakäyminen olisi sujuvampaa?
:uk: Bobriha, is it as I've come to understand, that in Russia only near friends are called by first names, for others at least the patronym must be added? And that foreigners living in Russia usually get a patronym made for them sooner or later by those who associate with them just to make the everyday communications smoother?
Post by: Bobriha on June 08, 2015, 10:08:24 AM
I haven't met much foreigners, but I believe standard way to address a person from abroad is господин/госпожа (gospodin/gospozha ≈ Herra/Rouva)+surname, if formal, or by first name if less formal. Making artificial patronymics sounds really old fashioned, like something from L. Tolstoy's times :). That far in the past even close friends often called each other by first name+patronymic.
Calling a person by surname alone while speaking to said person is impolite and may be even considered as an offense. Though, sometimes close friends call so each other in a jokingly manner.
(And, just to make it clear, I myself am not from Russia. I was born and live in Northern Kazakhstan. It's an area with big Russian population and with the strong influence of Russian culture.)
Post by: Pessi on June 08, 2015, 01:06:36 PM
:uk: Thank you for the information as well as the clarification. We are such an international community that it's sometimes very hard to remember where everyone hails from.
Post by: viola on June 09, 2015, 06:28:41 PM
I have fallen in love with this song (the harmonies are to die for) and I was wondering if someone could tell me what they are singing about. I know it has something to do with death, but I was unable to find the lyrics anywhere. Not knowing when one word starts and another begins, I need some help, so if there is someone who could maybe write down what they are saying and help translate it I would be really really grateful. Kiitos!
(also you guys should all look up Kardemimmit they make beautiful music)
Post by: Ann Marie on June 10, 2015, 01:05:29 AM
Finnish question: How do you add case endings to words that end in s? Specifically in this case, how do I put vahvistus into accusative?
eta: and my next trick, trying to be polite by using the conditional! Um, if anyone would like to proof a (very short) letter for me, I would be
Post by: Kuuskytkolme on June 10, 2015, 03:08:06 AM
I can try to transcribe/translate it when I get back home from work, but if someone who's from a closer dialectal area to Karelia than the middle of Helsinki would like to do it before me, by all means feel free to do it.
And if Ann Marie hasn't found a proof reader for her letter by then I can do that too.
---
Se kertoo Tuonen tytöstä Kalevan 16. runossa. (Linkki (http://runeberg.org/kalevala/16.html))
Voin yrittää kirjoittaa sen puhtaaksi/kääntää sen kun pääsen kotiin töistä, mutta jos joku joka on lähemmältä murrealueelta Karjalaa kuin keskeltä Helsinkiä haluaa tehdä sen, kaikin mokomin tehköön.
Ja jos Ann Marie ei ole siihen mennessä löytänyt kirjeellensä tarkistajaa voin tehdä senkin.
Post by: Ann Marie on June 10, 2015, 03:31:23 AM
Ja jos Ann Marie ei ole siihen mennessä löytänyt kirjeellensä tarkistajaa voin tehdä senkin.
Kiitos, mutta Cancvas tehi vapaaehtoisesti aiempi.
Post by: Pessi on June 10, 2015, 04:28:20 AM
Tuonen tyttö mustatukka
Manalan matala neiti
souti rannan, souti toisen,
souti suurelle merelle
etsi mailta martahia
ilmalta iättömiä
Girl of Tuoni [= Death, both the land and the personification] black haired
short maiden of Manala [another name for the land of the dead, indicates also it's being under the ground: maanalainen = underground]
rowed a shore, rowed another,
rowed onto the great sea
serched the lands for the dead
the air for the ageless
Edit
Ok, it turned out the end of the song is decipherable again. As far as i can hear it goes like this:
Tuonen tyttö mustatukka
sousi rannan, sousi toisen,
sousi meidän rantuelle.
Jos mä Tuonena olisin
tahi Tuonen tyttärenä
haukuttaisin Tuonen koijut(?)
niin kuin Tuoni meidän koijut(?)
itkettäisin Tuonen lapset
niin kuin Tuoni meidän lapset.
Girl of Tuoni black haired
rowed a shore, rowed another,
rowed to our shore
If I were Tuoni
or the daughter of Tuoni
I would make the dogs(?) of Tuoni bark
as Tuoni made our dogs(?) bark,
I would make the children of Tuoni cry
as Tuoni made our children cry.
Edit 2
According to this site (http://kansanrunous.net84.net/Suomen_kirjallisuus_I/huoli_uhma_ja_tyolauluja.htm) the song is a medieval Ingrian lament. It tells how the girl of Tuoni rows from shore to shore and comes to Meiälä, where she "pulls the linens across the doorways and the curtains over the windows and kills the master of the house". The original ending is longer, it mentions whinnying geldings and bellowing cows in addition to barking dogs and crying children.
Post by: viola on June 10, 2015, 06:15:29 AM
Quote
According to this site the song is a medieval Ingrian lament. It tells how the girl of Tuoni rows from shore to shore and comes to Meiälä, where she "pulls the linens across the doorways and the curtains over the windows and kills the master of the house". The original ending is longer, it mentions whinnying geldings and bellowing cows in addition to barking dogs and crying children.
It's so dark for such a pretty song. Wow. Thank you so much for your help! :)
Post by: Pessi on June 10, 2015, 07:46:55 AM
:uk: I found here (http://dbgw.finlit.fi/skvr/showtext.phtml?id=skvr04111050&textPart=textnorm) the whole lyrics for the Ingrian original
:finland: Tuonen tyttö musta tukka, :uk: Girl of Tuoni black hair
Man(n)alan mat(t)ala neito, short maiden of Manala
Sousi rannan, sousi toisen, rowed a shore, rowed another
Sousi suurelle merolle, rowed onto the great sea
Sousi meiän rantuelle; rowed to our shore
Etsi maalta martahii, searched the land for dead ones
Ilmalta ijättömii; the air for ageless ones
Saanut ei maalta martahii, didn't get dead ones from the land
Ilmalt ei ijättömii. from the air any ageless ones
Tuli meiän rantuelle, came to our shore
Tuli Tuoni meiälään, came Tuoni to meiälä (probably "our place")
Pani palttinat oville, put linens at the doors
Veti verkot ikkunoille. pulled nets over the windows
Kuuli ohkavan olilta, heard sighing(?) from the straws (beds used to be filled with straw)
Kättä peeksuvan pehuilta, hand being thumped(?) on the bedding straws
Voivottajan vuotehesta; from the bed of the moaning one.
Manitteli meiän marjan, Wooed our berry (away)
Tappoi talon isännän; killed the master of the house
Jäivät auki aitan ukset. open were left the doors of the granary
Tuo kun tuoni musta tukka, when that tuoni black hair
Man(n)alan mat(t)ala neito short maiden of Manala
Tyhjin tuli meiälään, came empty(handed) to our place
Tyhjin tullut, täysi mennyt. empty came, full(handed) went away
Oho mie Tuonena olisin Oho (if) i were Tuoni
Tali[!] Tuonen tyttärenä, or the daughter of Tuoni
Itkettäisin Tuonen lapset I would make the children of Tuoni cry
Niinkuin Tuoni meiän lapset, like Tuoni made our children
Hirnuttaisin Tuonen ruunat I would make the geldings of Tuoni whinny
Niinkuin Tuoni meiän ruunat, like Tuoni made our geldings
Ammuttaisin Tuonen lehmat I would make the cows of Tuoni bellow
Niinkuin Tuoni meiän lehmät, like Tuoni made our cows
Haukuttaisin Tuonen koijut I would make the dogs of Tuoni bark
Niinkuin Tuoni meiän koijut. like Tuoni made our dogs
Ei tuo Surma suorin tehnyt, That Death didn't make straight (=didn't find to the right place)
Tauti ei oikein osannut, disease didn't get (it) right (=didn't hit the right target)
Miks' tappoi talon isännän. Why did it kill the master of the house
Edit
Finnish question: How do you add case endings to words that end in s? Specifically in this case, how do I put vahvistus into accusative?
I would like to have a confirmation = haluaisin vahvistuksen
I ask for a confirmation = pyydän vahvistusta
Post by: Guardian G.I. on June 10, 2015, 10:33:25 AM
From what I've heard, many people in Estonia in the Soviet times used to listen to Finnish radio broadcasts, so I think they could understand Finnish a little bit.
Post by: Krisse Kovacs on June 10, 2015, 10:48:27 AM
A random question from a random person - how similar are the Finnish and the Estonian languages? Can Estonians and Finns understand each other (at least somewhat) without learning the respective languages?
From what I've heard, many people in Estonia in the Soviet times used to listen to Finnish radio broadcasts, so I think they could understand Finnish a little bit.
I heard it is kind pof like swedish-norwegian-swedish, very similar, kind of understand eachother, but still too many differences to understand clearly.
Post by: Pessi on June 10, 2015, 03:06:47 PM
My husband says that after working with Estonians for ten years he has learned the language passively well enough to understand it, but were he to learn to speak it he should need to actually study it.
Post by: Krisse Kovacs on June 10, 2015, 05:54:13 PM
and no clue where I could ask for it.
Post by: Ann Marie on June 10, 2015, 11:11:31 PM
Martti,
Disclaimer: I am not Finnish, nor do I speak Finnish, but from what I do know and a dictionary, I'm pretty sure you can translate "kakkiainen" as "poopy". I hope that helps?
Post by: Krisse Kovacs on June 12, 2015, 07:21:01 AM
Martti,
Disclaimer: I am not Finnish, nor do I speak Finnish, but from what I do know and a dictionary, I'm pretty sure you can translate "kakkiainen" as "poopy". I hope that helps?
well, I was wondering if finns can do a proper translation to this, I know what it means in hungarian (kakiska), but I never knew a proper translation to english. people were asking me for translation but I never could do one.
if I try to translate the hungarian, the poopy would be only the "kakis" and still the "-ka" is missing, something similar in finnish, but I don't know finnish well to do it.
(
Post by: Ann Marie on June 12, 2015, 05:16:37 PM
Honestly not sure there's a more complete meaning in English.
Interesting no Finns have chimed in. Maybe poop is considered particularly vulgar there?
Post by: Krisse Kovacs on June 12, 2015, 05:47:34 PM
Hum. So what does the "ka" in Hungarian mean?
Honestly not sure there's a more complete meaning in English.
Interesting no Finns have chimed in. Maybe poop is considered particularly vulgar there?
well, the hungarian word is kind of childish, very childish.
the -ka (or -ke) endings in hungarian, is something that makes the thing cuter, english has no such thing. for name it is like adding "little" before the name, but still cuter and still not same...... honestly I have no clue how to translate it. this is the only way how I saw it translated.......
like
Mátyás -> Matyi -> Matyika
Matthew -> Mattie -> little Mattie (kind of)
the kakiska in hungarian is like saying "little poopy"...... or something.
I dunno how finnish actually works so I can't tell the extra things in the end and what they kinda mean.
Post by: Cancvas on June 13, 2015, 12:03:08 AM
For literally being soiled with poop (adjective), you would be "kakkainen".
-C
Post by: Krisse Kovacs on June 13, 2015, 06:54:55 AM
Ann Maries translation to English was spot on. Not much add to it. Word "poop" taught to children is "kakka" and then ad some cases (I'll leave that so somebody else, if needed) and you end up as description of a person (not so much a thing) which is poopy. Expression is difficult to use in mean manner. Could be used for small children in friendly way if they are dirty, with thing it self or otherwise.
For literally being soiled with poop (adjective), you would be "kakkainen".
-C
thank you
Post by: Pessi on June 15, 2015, 04:00:47 AM
Kakkiainen was also used as a name for small, harmless but annoying ghosts and delusions. Another name for these was hiiden lintu, "bird of hiisi". There were also some specific kakkiainen-creatures like kirkonkakkiainen ("church kakkiainen") that was a rather nasty haltija ("guardian spirit") of church buildings and unikakkiainen ("dream kakkiainen") that could show the place of hidden treasure to a sleeper.
There was also a belief that when fires were rising from graveyard it meant there were kakkiainens there (so kakkiainen had a connection to the will-o'-the-wisps) and that after a quarrel with a visitor there was a need for spells to ensure there won't be any kakkiainen making it's home in the house.
Post by: Krisse Kovacs on June 15, 2015, 08:08:38 AM
Actually the mythological creature kakkiainen didn't have anything to do with "kakka", poop. The name kakkiainen is synonymous with katkiainen. It's an obscure miniature creature that was believed to cut or break off ("katkoa"= to cut, to break off, "katki"= cut off, broken off, "katkiainen"=off-cutter, off-breaker) hairs, fishing lines and the strands of fishing nets. Other names for the creature are katka and katikas. The Finnish name for shrimp, katkarapu ("katka crab") is of the same origin as many kinds of tiny water creatures as well as beetles were believed to be katkiainen/kakkiainen.
Kakkiainen was also used as a name for small, harmless but annoying ghosts and delusions. Another name for these was hiiden lintu, "bird of hiisi". There were also some specific kakkiainen-creatures like kirkonkakkiainen ("church kakkiainen") that was a rather nasty haltija ("guardian spirit") of church buildings and unikakkiainen ("dream kakkiainen") that could show the place of hidden treasure to a sleeper.
There was also a belief that when fires were rising from graveyard it meant there were kakkiainens there (so kakkiainen had a connection to the will-o'-the-wisps) and that after a quarrel with a visitor there was a need for spells to ensure there won't be any kakkiainen making it's home in the house.
WOW, thanks! this makes new sence for my nickname!
Post by: Ann Marie on June 15, 2015, 04:44:26 PM
Post by: Pessi on June 16, 2015, 01:01:21 AM
:uk: I wouldn't have known myself, but we've lately had lots of folkloristic subjects in the Finnish Tolkien Society's forum's quiz thread and the quizzer before the last asked specifically about Finnish mythological creatures. Unikakkiainen was among those mentioned.
Edit
:finland: Tämä (http://languagecatalyst.com/wordpress2014/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Finnish-comic.png) on yksi suosikkisarjakuvistani, kun suomen kielestä on kyse.
:uk: This (http://languagecatalyst.com/wordpress2014/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Finnish-comic.png) is one of my favorite cartoons when talking about Finnish language.
Post by: Krisse Kovacs on June 16, 2015, 12:06:25 PM
Edit
:finland: Tämä (http://languagecatalyst.com/wordpress2014/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Finnish-comic.png) on yksi suosikkisarjakuvistani, kun suomen kielestä on kyse.
:uk: This (http://languagecatalyst.com/wordpress2014/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Finnish-comic.png) is one of my favorite cartoons when talking about Finnish language.
can anyone tell me what exactly those words with the dog (or any other word) in finnish? explain in someway?
Post by: Pessi on June 16, 2015, 02:41:22 PM
Though all these are perfectly correct language, the combination of -kaan and -ko (or the other way round) is rarely if ever used irl. It sounds stupid.
Edit The litany could have been longer too. There are other endings (ok, just learned these are actually called "clitic" in English) than just -kaan and -ko that could have been used: -kin, -han and -pa.
Post by: AuthorOfLight on June 17, 2015, 02:46:30 PM
I was wondering if anyone knew of some kid's cartoons in Finnish with English subtitles? I think that that could be helpful for me, but I'm not sure how to find any. :-\
Post by: Ana Nymus on June 17, 2015, 05:22:00 PM
Hei!
I was wondering if anyone knew of some kid's cartoons in Finnish with English subtitles? I think that that could be helpful for me, but I'm not sure how to find any. :-\
I second this wondering. Very, very much
Post by: AuthorOfLight on June 17, 2015, 06:15:45 PM
(also excuses to watch children's TV and feel like a little kid again woo!)
Post by: Krisse Kovacs on June 17, 2015, 08:21:03 PM
Hei!
I was wondering if anyone knew of some kid's cartoons in Finnish with English subtitles? I think that that could be helpful for me, but I'm not sure how to find any. :-\
Post by: Pessi on June 18, 2015, 01:01:17 AM
:finland: Lasten piirrettyjä on tietysti paljon DVD- ja Blueray-muodossa, jolloin voi valita vaihtoehdot "äänet: suomi" ja "tekstitys: *joku muu kieli*". Taitaa vain olla niin, että nämä ovat yleensä aluekoodattuja, enkä ole ihan selvillä, kuinka yleisesti englanti on tekstitysvaihtoehtojen joukossa. Nämä kun ovat kuitenkin yleensä pohjoismaisille markkinoille suunnattuja levyjä -> kielivaihtoehdot tuppaavat rajoittumaan valikoimaan "ruotsi, tanska, suomi, norja, islanti" eivätkä aina sisällä edes kaikkia niitä.
Post by: AuthorOfLight on June 18, 2015, 02:44:05 PM
Post by: ryagami on June 18, 2015, 03:09:59 PM
EDIT: Also, this:
Post by: AuthorOfLight on June 18, 2015, 08:46:12 PM
I found this, but it seems super weird: xD
EDIT: Also, this: />
Oh, thank you! Yeah, the first one seems... a bit odd... ;D But the Moomins seems cute, so I'll probably watch it. :)
Post by: Bobriha on June 19, 2015, 09:15:10 AM
Post by: Ana Nymus on June 19, 2015, 09:57:26 AM
By the way, Finns have Moomin ballet :)
I can't even imagine how hard it must be to dance in those costumes. Props to them for doing that!
Post by: AuthorOfLight on June 19, 2015, 11:22:43 AM
By the way, Finns have Moomin ballet :)
O_o
How could they dance in those costumes? It's hard enough without them!
Post by: Bobriha on June 19, 2015, 02:05:25 PM
Suomeen takaisin taas.
Nyt minä yrittin kirjoittaa runon, joka olisi “tyylissani” (lue: luonnosta).
Kukkulan huipulla,
jolle käyn usein,
kukkimisen lopussa on kaunokaiseja,
neilikat ovat siis kukkimassa,
kirjava sepeli on tähdessä,
ja ajuruoho nitoo verkkoja ja solmuja silla.
Kukkulamme huipuilla
sateisella kesälläkään
ei nurmi kasva.
Kukkulamme huipuilla
kuivassa vuodessakin
kukkivat vuoroittain
kaunokasit ja neilikat,
pallo-ohdakkeet sitten,
ja ajuruoho levittää varpuja sepelille.
(Toivottavasti, kielioppi ei ole niin huonoa...)
Post by: Sunflower on June 19, 2015, 02:17:06 PM
By the way, Finns have Moomin ballet :)
I'm glad I dropped in on this thread -- I'm a huge ballet fan, and that looks wonderful!
An article about the ballet: http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20150316/news/303169913
Post by: Pessi on June 19, 2015, 03:44:29 PM
That "weird" Youtube cartoon linked earlier is however a totally Finnish thing called Pasila. It's aimed at adults and parodies the Finnish police.
Post by: Ann Marie on June 19, 2015, 06:58:15 PM
By the way, Finns have Moomin ballet :)
Tuo on kaunis.
Post by: Pessi on June 24, 2015, 05:08:47 AM
koira nominative
koiran genitive (dog’s)
koiraa partitive (a part of a dog/some of a dog) (harjasin koiraa = I brushed a dog (partly))
koiran accusative (dog as an object) (harjasin koiran = I brushed a dog (wholly))
koirassa inessive (in a dog)
koirasta elative (of a dog; from inside a dog)
koiraan illative ((in)to a dog)
koiralla adessive (literally ”on a dog”; also used to mark possession: koiralla on pallo = the dog has a ball)
koiralta ablative (from (on) the dog)
koiralle allative ((on)to the dog)
koirana essive (as a dog)
koiraksi translative ((turn) into a dog)
koiratta abessive (without a dog)
koirineen comitative (with (her/his/their) dog; should be koirine)
koirin instructive (with a dog as an instument)
koirasi nominative/genitive your dog (singular you)
koirani nominative/genitive my dog
koiransa nominative/genitive her/his/their dog
koiramme nominative/genitive our dog
koiranne nominative/genitive your dog (plural you)
koiraani partitive/illative my dog
koiraasi partitive/illative your dog (singular you)
koiraansa partitive/illative her/his/their dog
koiraamme partitive/illative our dog
koiraanne partitive/illative your dog (plural you)
koirassani inessive my dog ("In my dog")
koirassasi inessive your dog (singular you)
koirassansa inessive her/his/their dog
koirassamme inessive our dog
koirassanne inessive your dog (plural you)
koirastani elative my dog ("From (inside) my dog")
koirastasi elative your dog (singular you)
koirastaan elative her/his/their dog
koirastamme elative our dog
koirastanne elative your dog (plural you)
koirallani adessive my dog (literally "On my dog")
koirallasi adessive your dog (singular you)
koirallaan adessive her/his/their dog
koirallamme adessive our dog
koirallanne adessive your dog (plural you)
For some reason ablative and allative have been skipped.
koiranani essive my dog ("As my dog")
koiranasi essive your dog (singular you)
koiranaan essive her/his/their dog
koiranamme essive our dog
koirananne essive your dog (plural you)
koirakseni translative my dog ("(Turn) Into my dog")
koiraksesi translative your dog (singular you)
koirakseen translative her/his/their dog
koiraksemme translative our dog
koiraksenne translative your dog (plural you)
koirattani abessive my dog ("Without my dog")
koirattasi abessive your dog (singular you)
koirattaan abessive her/hos/their dog
koirattamme abessive our dog
koirattanne abessive your dog (plural you)
koirineni comitative my dog ("With my dog")
koirinesi comitative your dog (singular you)
koirineen comitative her/his/their dog
koirinemme comitative our dog
koirinenne comitative your dog (plural you)
With possessive suffix there’s no instructive.
The clitic -kaan means approximately “not even”/”neither”:
koirakaan nominative + -kaan (“Not even a dog”)
koirankaan genitive/accusative + -kaan
koiraakaan partitive + -kaan
koirassakaan inessive + -kaan
koirastakaan elative + -kaan
koiraankaan illative + -kaan
koirallakaan adessive + -kaan
koiraltakaan ablative + -kaan
koirallekaan allative + -kaan
koiranakaan essive + -kaan
koiraksikaan translative + -kaan
koirattakaan abessive + -kaan
koirineenkaan comitative + possessive suffix + -kaan (should be koirinekaan)
koirinkaan instructive + -kaan
The clitic -ko turns the word into a question:
koirako nominative + -ko (”A dog?”)
koiranko genitive + -ko
koiraako partitive + -ko
koirassako inessive + -ko
koirastako elative + -ko
koiraanko illative + -ko
koirallako adessive + -ko
koiraltako ablative + -ko
koiralleko allative + -ko
koiranako essive + -ko
koiraksiko translative + -ko
koirattako abessive + -ko
koirineenko comitative + possessive suffix + -ko (should be koirineko)
koirinko instructive + -ko
koirasikaan nominative/genitive your dog (singular you) + -kaan
koiranikaan nominative/genitive my dog + -kaan (“Not even my dog/dog’s”)
koiransakaan nominative/genitive her/his/their dog + -kaan
koirammekaan nominative/genitive our dog + -kaan
koirannekaan nominative/genitive your dog (plural you) + -kaan
koiraanikaan partitive my dog + -kaan
koiraasikaan partittive your dog (singular you) + -kaan
koiraansakaan partitive her/his/their dog + -kaan
koiraammekaan partitive our dog + -kaan
koiraannekaan partitive your dog (plural you) + -kaan
koirassanikaan inessive mys dog + -kaan (”Not even in my dog”)
koirassasikaan inessive your dog (singular you) + -kaan
koirassaankaan inessive her/hos/their dog + -kaan
koirassammekaan inessive our dog + -kaan
koirassannekaan inessive your dog (plural you) + -kaan
koirastanikaan elative my dog + -kaan (”Not even of/from (inside) my dog”)
koirastasikaan elative your dog (singular you) + -kaan
koirastaankaan elative her/hos/their dog + -kaan
koirastammekaan elative our dog + -kaan
koirastannekaan elative your dog (plural you) + -kaan
For some reason the illative has been skipped.
koirallanikaan adessive my dog + -kaan (”Not even on my dog”)
koirallasikaan adessive your dog (singular you) + -kaan
koirallaankaan adessive her/his/their dog + -kaan
koirallammekaan adessive our dog + -kaan
koirallannekaan adessive your dog (plural you) + -kaan
For some reason the ablative and allative have been skipped.
koirananikaan essive my dog + -kaan (“Not even as my dog”)
koiranasikaan essive your dog (singular you) + -kaan
koiranaankaan essive her/his/their dog + -kaan
koiranammekaan essive our dog + -kaan
koiranannekaan essive your dog (plural you) + -kaan
koiraksenikaan translative my dog + -kaan (“Not even (turn) into my dog”)
koiraksesikaan translative your dog (singular you) + -kaan
koirakseenkaan translative her/his/their dog + -kaan
koiraksemmekaan translative our dog + -kaan
koiraksennekaan translative your dog (plural you) + -kaan
koirattanikaan abessive my dog + -kaan (“Not even without my dog”)
koirattasikaan abessive your dog (singular you) + -kaan
koirattaankaan abessive her/his/their dog + -kaan
koirattammekaan abessive our dog + -kaan
koirattannekaan abessive your dog (plural you) + -kaan
koirinenikaan comitative my dog + -kaan (”Not even with my dog”)
koirinesikaan comitative your dog + -kaan
koirineenkaan comitative her/his/their dog + -kaan
koirinemmekaan comitative our dog + -kaan
koirinennekaan comitative your dog (plural you) + -kaan
As stated already, with possessive suffix there’s no instructive case.
koirasiko nominative/genitive your dog (singular you) + -ko
koiraniko nominative/genitive my dog + -ko (“My dog?”)
koiransako nominative/genitive her/his/their dog + -ko
koirammeko nominative/genitive our dog + -ko
koiranneko nominative/genitive your dog (plural you) + -ko
koiraaniko partitive my dog + -ko ("Some of my dog?")
koiraasiko partitive your dog (singular you) + -ko
koiraansako partitive her/his/their dog + -ko
koiraammeko partitive our dog + -ko
koiraanneko partitive your dog (plural you) + -ko
koirassaniko inessive my dog + -ko (”In my dog?”)
koirassasiko inessive your dog (singular you) + ko
koirassaanko inessive her/his/their dog + -ko
koirassammeko inessive our dog + -ko
koirassanneko inessive your dog (plural you) + -ko
koirastaniko elative my dog + -ko (“Of/from (inside) my dog?”)
koirastasiko elative your dog (singular you) + -ko
koirastaanko elative her/his/their dog + -ko
koirastammeko elative our dog + -ko
koirastanneko elative your dog (plural you) + -ko
For some reason the illative has been skipped.
koirallaniko adessive my dog + -ko (“On my dog?”)
koirallasiko adessive your dog (singular you) + -ko
koirallaanko adessive her/his/their dog + -ko
koirallammeko adessive our dog + -ko
koirallanneko adessive your dog (plural you) + -ko
For some reason the ablative and allative have been skipped.
koirananiko essive my dog + -ko (“As my dog?”)
koiranasiko essive your dog (singular you) + -ko
koiranaanko essive her/his/their dog + -ko
koiranammeko essive our dog + -ko
koirananneko essive your dog (plural you) + -ko
koirakseniko translative my dog + -ko (“(Turn) into my dog?”)
koiraksesiko translative your dog (singular you) + -ko
koirakseenko translative her/his/their dog + -ko
koiraksemmeko translative our dog + -ko
koiraksenneko translative your dog (plural you) + -ko
koirattaniko abessive my dog + -ko (“Without my dog?”)
koirattasiko abessive your dog (singular you) + -ko
koirattaanko abessive her/his/their dog + -ko
koirattammeko abessive our dog + -ko
koirattanneko abessive your dog + -ko
koirineniko comitative my dog + -ko (“With my dog?”)
koirinesiko comitative your dog + -ko
koirineenko comitative her/his/their dog + -ko
koirinemmeko comitative our dog + -ko
koirinenneko comitative your dog (plural you) + -ko
As mentioned above, with possessive suffix there’s no instructuve case.
The words in the comic from this on are a repetition of the last two litanies but with the -kaan and -ko clitics combined. It doesn’t matter much which way round the -kaan and -ko are when combined, the meaning stays the same. These combinations are – even if grammatically totally correct - however rather clumsy and hardly ever used in everyday language. For example “Koirinenikaanko?” would rather be on the lines of “Eikö koirani kanssakaan?” (ei = not + -kö = ? / koira = dog + -ni = my / kanssa = with + -kaan = (not) even). Edit Actually, even that sounds rather stiff. Probably the most natural way to say it would be "Eikö edes koirani kanssa?" where "edes" means even.
It may have been noticed that accusative isn’t mentioned in most of the litanies. This is because accusative usually looks like genitive or partitive depending on the situation. It has even been debated if the Finnish language can be said to actually have such a case as accusative since the case doesn’t have it’s own suffix.
The clitics -han, -kin and -pa/-pä have also been excluded from the comic (probably for the very good reason that there was no space). When used thay are added to the end of the word the same way as -kaan and -ko.
The clitic -kin means approximately "even/too", for example "koirakin" could be translated "even a dog" or "a dog too".
The clitics -han and -pa/-pä don't have actual meanings, they are used to stress certain words. For example "sinähän sanoit niin" means literally "you said so" but the clitic -hän after sinä, "you", puts special importance on it and gives it a sense of argument ("it was you who said so"). One example of -pa/-pä in it's turn is "onpa tänään kaunis päivä" which means literally "it's beautiful day today" but stresses the word on, "is", in a way that gives it a sense of wonder ("My, what a beautiful day it is").
Post by: Ann Marie on June 24, 2015, 06:08:00 AM
I know I'm going to fall asleep tonight pondering the uses of a word that means "not even from inside my dog". That, in particular, I'm not so sure I'm thankful for.
Post by: Eriaror on June 24, 2015, 07:25:53 AM
I know I'm going to fall asleep tonight pondering the uses of a word that means "not even from inside my dog".If you think of this particular dog (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=340), I'm sure one can come up with some uses. The Finnish language thinks of everything. :D
Speaking of that list, I think I'm going to spend some time with it, figuring out the Hungarian pairs of Finnish suffixes... so it surely had one use so far. :D
(I could post it, too, if somebody would find it interesting)
Post by: Pessi on June 24, 2015, 07:41:57 AM
I know I'm going to fall asleep tonight pondering the uses of a word that means "not even from inside my dog".
One of the funny things with Finnish language: opinion is expressed using elative. "In my opinion" = "(minun) mielestäni" (mieli = mind -> mielestäni = from my mind) - or simply "minusta" (minä = nominative case of "me", minusta = elative case of "me").
So if it's the opinion of a dog, it can be expressed "koirasta". If it's the opinion of my dog, the word turns into "koirastani". And if even my dog doesn't agree to something, then it's "koirastanikaan". Like "Ruoka ei ole hyvää koirastanikaan" = "The food isn't good even in the opinion of my dog".
Welcome to the wonderful world of Finnish language. It doesn't make sense even to us natives if we think too tightly on it.
Edit
Elative is also used when you talk or tell about something. "Puhun koirastani" = I talk about my dog. So "En puhu koirastanikaan" = "I don't talk even about my dog" (or "I don't talk about my dog either", depending on situation.)
Edit 2
Also if you like something, the thing you like is in elative case. "Pidän koirastani" = I like my dog. So if your poor furry creature has lost your good opinion, you might say "en pidä koirastanikaan" = I don't like even my dog/I don't like my dog either.
Post by: Bobriha on June 27, 2015, 08:57:06 AM
Post by: Ann Marie on June 27, 2015, 08:19:14 PM
Bobriha, luulan niin?
Post by: Bobriha on June 27, 2015, 11:53:43 PM
Ja minä vielä haluan tietää kermaviilistä. Jo tekin marjapiirakan jogurtin kanssa (ja se on makea :) ), mutta olisi hienoa paistaa tavallista marjapiirakkaa.
Post by: Ann Marie on June 28, 2015, 01:33:51 AM
I can conjugate simple present tense pretty decently now, except for consonant gradation. :D
You still want to know about the sour.. dairy product thing. I can't figure "jo tekin", but marjapiiraka must be a berry pie. Can you use yogurt in it, maybe? (It is sweet.) But would be great fried usually berry pie.
Hmm. Do you have a recipe?
Post by: Bobriha on June 28, 2015, 02:56:48 AM
Jo tekin was supposed to mean I already did. Hm, jo olen tehnyt (I already have done) could be more appropriate...
I used this recipe http://www.kotikokki.net/reseptit/nayta/10880/Marjapiirakka/ There are actually hundreds of marjapiirakka recipes. For mine I used berries from our local species of strawberry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragaria_viridis. (I should admit, removing sepals from about 1 l of pea-sized berries was a real pain in all parts of body :) ) Anyway, I have got pretty decent cake finally. The only side note - you may probably want to powder your dough with some starch before filling it with berries. I didn't and it has come a bit wet.
Post by: Kuuskytkolme on June 28, 2015, 05:06:05 AM
Kermaviili on hapankerman tyyppi, vaikkakin sen rasvaprosentti on yleensä enintään 10%. Se on viili (https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viili) joka on tehty kermasta, kuten nimikin antaa ymmärtää.
I already did (it) = [minä] tein (sen) jo
I think so? = Luulen niin?
I'd think so? = Luulisin niin?
Post by: Ann Marie on June 28, 2015, 06:29:24 AM
Ah, I didn't guess you were answering my question, sorry!
Jo tekin was supposed to mean I already did. Hm, jo olen tehnyt (I already have done) could be more appropriate...
I used this recipe http://www.kotikokki.net/reseptit/nayta/10880/Marjapiirakka/ There are actually hundreds of marjapiirakka recipes. For mine I used berries from our local species of strawberry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragaria_viridis. (I should admit, removing sepals from about 1 l of pea-sized berries was a real pain in all parts of body :) ) Anyway, I have got pretty decent cake finally. The only side note - you may probably want to powder your dough with some starch before filling it with berries. I didn't and it has come a bit wet.
Yes, my attempts to use Finnish are confusing, aren't they. XD
Such tiny strawberries! Cute! Um, but yes, I can see how they'd be hard to work with. The cake (I'm sorry but that is not pie, whatever they call it) looks delicious, though. The recipe you linked doesn't call for kermaviili...
Kermaviili .... Kervaviili
Er. Why are they spelled different?
Post by: Kuuskytkolme on June 28, 2015, 07:03:38 AM
Post by: Bobriha on June 28, 2015, 12:41:43 PM
Kermaviili is is a type of sour cream, although its fat percent is usually at most 10%. It's viili (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viili) made from cream as the name implies (kerma = cream).Kuuskytkolme, thanks for explanation!
I already did (it) = [minä] tein (sen) jo
Aaand yes, consonant gradation... I wonder if this thing will ever become natural for me.
Yes, my attempts to use Finnish are confusing, aren't they. XD
Such tiny strawberries! Cute! Um, but yes, I can see how they'd be hard to work with. The cake (I'm sorry but that is not pie, whatever they call it) looks delicious, though. The recipe you linked doesn't call for kermaviili...
Just keep going! The more you use your Finnish the sooner it stops being confusing! (May be applied to any language).
Well, that was the only recipe that didn't call for kermaviili :). I, too, think the cake is more appropriate word for it but after all it taste that matters, not name.
By the way, things like that happen with different cousins' terms. I am not that advanced in Finnish cousin (not advanced at all, to be precise), so I can't recall any matching examples in it. But, say, in Russian English word pie is often translated with word пирог (pirog). But actually what Russians call пирог is only one sort of pies, the one that requires dough for at least bottom. Sheep herder's pie in Russian terms will not be пирог but запеканка (zapiekanka). I heard sometimes that was a source of confusion for Russians in English-speaking countries.
Let's assume Finns may recognize as piirakka some dishes English-speakers don't recognize as a pie and Russian-speakers don't recognize as пирог.
Post by: Pessi on June 29, 2015, 02:28:14 AM
But not all baked things with dough around filling are piirakka. There is also pasteija that's made of voitaikina (literally "butter dough") and filled usually with something salty (meat, eggs, fish, you name it). My purely subjective view is that the dirrerence between piirakka and pasteija is the dough used and the fact that most piirakka are baked in a mold while pasteija are baked on a baking tray.
Then there is also lörtsy. It's not actually piirakka or pasteija, it's a half moon shaped flat, greasy, floppy pastry made of doughnut dough and filled usually with meat or apple jam. It's a common street food especially in Savo.
This is btw going to be a very good blueberry summer. That means we'll soon be baking mustikkapiirakka, blueberry pie, almost every day =)
:finland: Tässä (https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piirakka) on suomenkielisen wikipedian artikkeli piirakasta. Sen mukaan piirakka on leivonnainen, jossa on taikinakuori ja täyte. Piirakka voi olla avoin (taikinaa vain pohjalla ja mahdollisesti reunoilla) tai kuorellinen (taikina täytteen päällä tai joka puolella sen ympärillä).
Mutta eivät kaikki leivonnaiset, joissa on taikina täyttteen ympärillä, ole piirakoita. On myös pasteija, joka on tehty voitaikinasta (kirjaimellisesti "butter dough") ja täytetty yleensä jollain suolaisella (lihalla, munilla, kalalla, mitä nyt kukakin haluaa). Minun täysin subjektiivinen näkemykseni on, että piirakan ja pasteijan erottaa taikina sekä se, että piirakka paistetaan vuoassa kun taas pasteija paistetaan uunipellillä.
Sitten on lörtsy. Se ei ole varsinaisesti piirakka tai pasteija, se on puolikuun muotoinen litteä, rasvainen, lerppu leivonnainen, joka on tehty munkkitaikinasta ja täytetty yleensä lihalla tai omenahillolla. Se on tavallista katuruokaa erityisesti Savossa.
Tästä on muuten tulossa todella hyvä mustikkakesä. Se tarkoittaa, että pian leivomme mustikkapiirakkaa, blueberry pie, melkein joka päivä =)
Post by: M4K3SH1FT on June 29, 2015, 05:08:56 PM
What about the christmas tart? Or Is it more of a swedish thing? Anyway, I can't wait to eat lörtsys again! :)
Also hello everyone! Another native finn here! I hope to be of help.
Post by: Ann Marie on June 29, 2015, 11:49:17 PM
Mitä on lörtsys?
I'm glad you're here! Some of us (read: me) need lots of help. XD
Post by: Pessi on June 30, 2015, 03:28:40 AM
:uk: Torttu is of course a story of it's own. I guess it's defined by the dough, for example kääretorttu ("swiss roll") and runebergintorttu ("Runeberg's tart") are made of spongy, suger cake like dough - even if runebergintorttu's dough has it's very own spices. But joulutorttu ("christmas tart")... I guess the name really is a straight loan from Swedish (as well as baking them is probably a Swedish cultural loan), because they are nonthless made of voitaikina ("butter dough") just like pasteija. Perhaps they should actually be called joulupasteija ("christmas pasty") ;)
Ann Marie, here (http://is12.snstatic.fi/img/468/1288768026793.jpg) is a picture of lörtsy (a sweet one, it has even sugar on it).
Bobriha, sorry I skipped your poem earlier. I like it and somehow most of the small grammar mistakes make it even more "poetic" to me. But if you feel like you want corrections, here goes:
Kukkulan huipulla,
jolle käyn usein, This is a very poetic way of saying "onto which I often walk". If you want it to mean "where I visit often", the first word should be jolla (I like it better the way it is)
kukkimisen lopussa on kaunokaiseja, "Kukinnan lopulla ovat kaunokaiset" would be grammatically more correct, but the only actual mistake is the plural of kaunokainen; indefinite form is kaunokaisia, definite form kaunokaiset.
neilikat ovat siis kukkimassa, "kukassa" would be a more correct form
kirjava sepeli on tähdessä,
ja ajuruoho nitoo verkkoja ja solmuja silla. sillä. I love the verb "nitoa" in this context, it makes the nets and knots sound very firm and concrete
Kukkulamme huipuilla
sateisella kesälläkään sateisena kesänäkään
ei nurmi kasva.
Kukkulamme huipuilla
kuivassa vuodessakin kuivana vuonnakin
kukkivat vuoroittain
kaunokasit ja neilikat, kauonokaiset
pallo-ohdakkeet sitten, would be more natural in reverse word order, "sitten pallo-ohdakkeet", but totally understandable as it is and can be interpreted as a poetic way to put more emphasis on the word "sitten" ("then")
ja ajuruoho levittää varpuja sepelille.
I really really like the way you paint whole pictures with just a few words.
Post by: Ann Marie on June 30, 2015, 04:14:41 AM
Post by: Bobriha on June 30, 2015, 12:42:00 PM
I guess the name really is a straight loan from Swedish (as well as baking them is probably a Swedish cultural loan), because they are nonthless made of voitaikina ("butter dough") just like pasteija. Perhaps they should actually be called joulupasteija ("christmas pasty") ;)Tradition: beats logic since Stone Age! ;D
Pessi, kuitenkin minä tahdon oikaisuja ja kiitoksia paljon niistä!
Ne näyttävät selvästi etten osaa käyttää essiivia. Vaikka minun pitäisi jo... (jne, aivan kuin tavallisesti).
Quote
I really really like the way you paint whole pictures with just a few words.Well, I used to write some hokkus (in Russian, so there is no point to show them somewhere here).
Seriously, strongly recommend it to anyone who wants improve their skill in describing things! By hokku here I mean not any random verses put in 3 lines, but those written according the rules, of course.
Ann Marie, maybe we should stop chatting on cousin then. Hanger is awful thing. (Just kidding! Why would we even) :)
Post by: Bobriha on July 04, 2015, 07:57:53 AM
Has päin honkia any literal translation? I understand that as a set phrase it may not necessary have one, but still?
As my dictionary says, honka is sort of a big old pine tree (so honkia would be plural partitive?) and päin depending on case of it's object may mean either from or towards. I don't know how it combines, if combines, with partitive, though.
Post by: Kuuskytkolme on July 04, 2015, 04:12:43 PM
If the word it's combined with means "from" by itself, päin means "from the direction of", for example:
Ääni tuli vasemmalta päin.
The sound came from somewhere left.
Ääni kuului talosta päin.
The sound came from the direction of the house.
I don't know the best way to translate it, but in both of those cases the sentence would work without the word päin. Adding it makes the direction more fuzzy.
In all other cases it's "to the direction of"
Eteenpäin sanoi mummo mäessä.
Forward said the grandma in a slope.
On aika lähteä kotiin päin.
It's time to go home.
As you can see, some of those are compound words. Have fund figuring out witch ones, I have no idea if there are any rules.
I should not write grammar posts while tired, sorry if this doesn't make sense or if there are mistakes.
Post by: Laufey on July 04, 2015, 04:28:49 PM
Double post, hm... Anyway, here is my question:
Has päin honkia any literal translation? I understand that as a set phrase it may not necessary have one, but still?
As my dictionary says, honka is sort of a big old pine tree (so honkia would be plural partitive?) and päin depending on case of it's object may mean either from or towards. I don't know how it combines, if combines, with partitive, though.
A literal translation would be "(that went smashing) into the pines", meaning something made such a belly-flop that it was akin of it smashing to a bunch of trees. A total fail, if you like. The partitive is a default declension form if you use the word "päin" (= into, towards) - "päin taloa" = hitting a house, "valoa päin" = towards the light, "aitaa päin" = toward a fence/crashing to a fence, "päin seiniä" = smashing to the walls (means the same as päin honkia, to utterly fail something). I'm not entirely sure why plural is used, but perhaps to further stress how bad the failing was, because technically speaking you could say "päin honkaa" but it just doesn't sound as impressive. Hitting one tree? Well that's just to be expected. Hitting many in one go? Ok now you've done it.
The only occasions I can think of where you wouldn't use partitive are set phrases such as "parhain päin" = in the best imaginable way, but here the translation of "päin" would also change.
Post by: Pessi on July 04, 2015, 06:12:36 PM
Post by: Bobriha on July 05, 2015, 10:33:33 AM
Pessi, it looks my dictionary gives a bit misleading translation for honka, thank you for clearing it! Well, things like that happen from time to time with dictionaries.
Btw, said dictionary gives two more set phrases with it: menköön honkaan tai haapaan and horista honkia. It seems to be quite popular for idioms!
Post by: Pessi on July 05, 2015, 01:02:06 PM
It has btw traditionally been always a honka onto which's upper branches the skull of a bear was attached after peijaiset, the "wedding and funeral of bear", that was celebrated every time a bear was hunted down. That ensured the bear's return to it's heavenly home. Bear's emuu, the mythological "parent" of all bears, was also called Hongotar.
Post by: Bobriha on July 10, 2015, 03:37:48 AM
Ilma on muutunut sateiseksi ja raikaaksi tässä. Joka minusta on hyvää! Ja minä kirjoitin sen tyhmän runon pilvista ja heijasumista:
Lännestä,
kukkuloiden takaa,
pilvet menevat kaupunkiin.
Lasit ikkunoissa tulevat juuri harmaaksi.
Puiden heijastumat
siinä ovat mustia,
tai kun aurinko löytää aukkoa,
tulevat vihreaksi takaisin.
Se ei kesta kauan.
Kun pilvi menee pois,
reunuksensa piirrätään lumivalkoiseksi.
Sekään ei kesta kauan.
Lasit ikkunoissa jäävat odottamaan
kirkasta taivasta,
sinisia heijastumia.
Post by: Cancvas on July 13, 2015, 02:10:27 AM
There are minor missing dots from ä (=replaced by a) and maybe rephrasing 4th line.
I think intention is that glasses go gray at the moment of arrival of clouds to town ?
Maybe:
(Juuri) Silloin lasit ikkunoissa tulevat harmaiksi.
I'd drop juuri for better flow and "harmaiksi" as plural going along with plural "lasit" and ikkunoissa.
-C
Post by: Bobriha on July 14, 2015, 10:23:03 AM
Speaking about poetry, which Finnish poets would you recommend? Well, of course Kivi and Runneberg go without saying, but modern ones? List of Finnish poets on Wikipedia is so scarring huge...
Post by: Kuuskytkolme on July 14, 2015, 12:52:20 PM
Minä voin olla outo, mutta rakastan loruja. Ehdoton lempparini on Kirsi kunnas, joka on tehnyt myös runoja aikuisille. Tässä on yksi hänen loruistaan:
Spoiler: "Herra Pii Poo" • show
And a translation:
Spoiler: "Mister Pii Poo" • show
Post by: Bobriha on July 16, 2015, 12:55:33 PM
Kirssi Kunnaksen runoista, joka on kirjoitettu aikuisille (tai uskon niin), tapasin kerran sen runon: "Pimeä ratsastaa mustalla tammalla..." Nykyään joka kerta, kun näen näista mustalla hevosella, muistan sitä. :)
Nyt ymmärrän lukea Saima Hermajan runoja, mutta olisi hauskaa lukea Kunnaksen myöhemmin.
Post by: Pessi on July 16, 2015, 05:15:19 PM
Suosittelen alkajaisiksi Edith Södergrania (joka kirjoitti ruotsiksi kuten Runebergkin, mutta hänen runoistaan on todella laadukkaita suomennoksia) ja Uuno Kailasta.
Pimeä ratsastaa mustalla tammalla on muuten pikkulasten runokokoelmasta nimeltä Tiitiäisen satupuu. Yksi suosikkirunoistani siinä on runo tunteellisesta siilistä (http://www.plzi.com/tekstia/others/tunteellinensiili.htm), joka pistelee kaikkia piikeillään ja itkee sitten yksinäisenä piikkikuorensa sisällä. Minulla oli pienenä siitä julistekin seinällä.
:uk: Who reads Runeberg? He is boring and pathetic, national poet or not.
I would recommend Edith Södergran (who wrote in Swedish like Runeberg but there are really good Finnish translations) and Uuno Kailas to start with.
Pimeä ratsastaa mustalla tammalla is btw from the little kid's poem anthology Tiitiäisen satupuu. One of my favorites in it is the poem about the emotional hedgehog (http://www.plzi.com/tekstia/others/tunteellinensiili.htm) who stings everyone with her/his spikes and then cries alone inside her/his spiky exterior. I had even a poster of it on my wall as a kid.
Post by: Bobriha on July 19, 2015, 02:08:03 AM
Kiitos suosituksesta, Pessi! Ja siilista!
Se on siis lapsille... Luulin se voi olla vähän vaikeata pikkulapsille, esimerkiksi "laukka":sta. Mutta se on kuitenkin hyvä, ettei laatinut runokokoelmaa lapsille vain "helppoista" runoista!
Minä olen niin epävarma tähän runoon, ja sillakin esitelen tätä:
Spoiler: show
Post by: olavi on July 23, 2015, 11:05:09 AM
Quote
Oulun polliisin velevottavat ohojeet Kuustokin juhulijoille
Oulusa pijetään taas 24. - 25.7.2015 melekoset vestivaalit. Väkiä tullee ympäri Suomia juhulimaa ja hauskaa pitämää. Me täälä Oulun polliisisa ollaan alvariinsa huolissaa juhulijoista ja siitä, että juhulien pittää sujua hyvi. Sen vuoksi päätettiin laittaa ohojeet, miten pittää käyttäytyä ja toimia, että vestivaalit sujjuu mahollisimman mukavasti. Suositellaa, että luvetta nuo kunnola läpi, niin muistatta. Toki joku hokara saattaa olla järkitonero, mutta hyvä jos suurin osa muistaa.
1. Elä mee rääsyisä alueelle, kannattaa vähän tälläytyä ja pöökätä ittiään. Valakkaa mukavat kostyymit niin viihyt paremmi.
2. Elä juo liikaa eläkä ahanehi pelekkää kalijaa tai muuta äkästä alakohoolia. Käy pian nii, ettet saa rahhoille vastinetta. Välillä pittää syyväkki jotaki, vaikka pannaania, kärkkäriä tai muuta vestivaalievästä. Ja välilä pittää juuva vettä tai vaikka limukkaa.
3. Jos meettä porukasa, pitäkääpä toisistanna huolta eläkääkä jättäkö kettää itekseen, etenkää jos se kaveri o kovastikki päissää. Pittää kehata mennä sanomaa järkkäreille tai ensiavun väelle, että tulukaa auttamaa kaveria.
4. Porise mukavia kaikkien kans. Ahastaha sielä on, monesaki välämäsä ja mussiikkisoun vallitesa, mutta se kuuluu vestareilla asiaa. Elä mee, jos ahistaa tai väenpaljous vaivaa.
5. Elä vie höpöjuttuja aluveelle, kuten puukkoja tai kepakoita tai muuta sellasta pölijää. Mitkään huumeet tai lääkkeetkää eivät kuulu vestareille.
6. Pijä huoli kamppeistas eläkä jätä niitä mihinkää. Joku ketku aina koittaa pölliä toisen ommaa, niistä pittää sanua henkilökunnalle heti, jos semmosta näkkyy.
7. Jätä huonotuulisuus kotia. Juhulisa ei änkyröijä eikä hölömöillä eikä missään nimesä aleta kähiseen. Ölövinä pittää osata olla eikä saa resuta. Kaikennäkösestä rähinöinnistä pittää heti alusa heretä pois.
8. Jos nää alat kovin ukisemmaan tai haastamaan riitaa, sitä voi käyvä nii, että polliisi tullee ja joutuu ojentammaan. Pahimmillaa nää pääjyt Ratakavun korttikaareen. Eikä auta, vaikka minkälainen herskapi ois. Nii kaua ku meitä ei tarvi, pilleet mennee hyvi.
9. Mikä se oli ensimmäine ohoje? Jos et muista, niin lujeppa uuvestaan ajatuksella läpi.
Tätä saa sitte iha vappaasti jakkaa veispookisa ja vitterisä ja instarammisa ja kaikisa mahollisisa metioisa!
Ystävällisin terveisin ja mukavia kekkereitä toivottaen, Oulun polliisi.
Spoiler: Somewhat standard Finnish translation without fixing grammar • show
Post by: Cancvas on July 24, 2015, 01:03:12 AM
-C
Post by: Bobriha on July 25, 2015, 12:35:12 AM
Getting back to poetry. Is there someone else who enjoys finding parallels between texts by authors from different places or/and epochs? I do.
This is my last catch:
From Saima Harmaja's "Sairas"
Quote
...and tanka by Japanese poet Ishikawa Takuboku:
Minä olen ihminen. Rinnassa hirveä nyyhkytys
kuuntelen, kuuntelen kulkua kahisevaa.
...
Quote
呼吸すれば、(kokyuu sureba,)Which may be translated like
胸の中にて鳴る音あり。(mune no naka nite naru oto ari)
凩よりもさびしきその音！(kogarashi yori mo sabishiki sono oto)
When breathing,
there is a sound inside (my) breast.
More gloomy then wind of autumn this sound!
He also suffered from tuberculosis and died young (though not that extremely young as Harmaja).
Post by: olavi on July 25, 2015, 09:15:01 AM
Well, it seems to me that grammatical differences between Oulu dialect and standard Finnish are systematic. And this "me ollaan" - as far as I know using passive as 1st person's plural form is usual in colloquial language?
Apart from the vocabulary it's quite systemic. Long consonants are preferred: either lengthening single consonants or consonant pairs like TK become KK. Most D:s are eliminated like in many Finnish dialects leaving H as a remnant. Vowels are usually the first thing to change when languages start to differ and that's definately happened here too. Most notably in this text with the word älä (don't) which is pronounced like elä (imperative of "to live"). Extra vowels, determined by vowel harmony, are often added between consonant pairs like LK, HJ, and HM.
It's quite fun to think rules for phenomenon that one would think could be pretty chaotic.
"Me ollaan" -passive indeed seems to be usual in colloquial language throughout Finland.
Quote
kuuntelen, kuuntelen kulkua kahisevaa. - More gloomy then wind of autumn this sound!
Quite a catch. It's hard to say if the same image would pop up if I had read these separately, but to me the only association with "kahina" is the sound autumn leaves make when you walk through them. Except there are no leaves here, just her lungs...
Post by: Bobriha on July 31, 2015, 12:24:42 AM
Heinäkuu on lopulla.
Ja elokuun kanssa tähän menevat sumut
ja sienet.
Enemmän västäräkkejä juoksee,
ememmän sudenkorentoja lentaa.
Omenat vielä kypsyvät,
vaan vadelmat on jo poimittu.
Ja alkavat kukkia kasvit,
jotka kukkivat syksyn edessä.
Elokuuhan vielä on kesä...
Miksi kaikki muistuttaa syksystä
minulle?
Post by: Pessi on August 05, 2015, 04:15:22 AM
:uk: Bobriha, your poem created in my mind an instant association to Tove Jansson's poem in which it's stated that "Augusti är alltid mörkast", aka August is always the darkest. I'll try to find the words somewhere, it too is a beatifully wistful poem about the ending of the summer.
:finland: Oikeastaan poikkesin tänne laittamaan linkin mielestäni hauskaan listaan hassuimmista suomalaisista kielikuvista. Se löytyy täältä (http://matadornetwork.com/life/20-funniest-finnish-expressions-use/).
:uk: Actually I dropped by to link an in my opinion amusing list of funniest Finnish expressions. It can be found here (http://matadornetwork.com/life/20-funniest-finnish-expressions-use/).
Post by: Bobriha on August 14, 2015, 11:39:34 AM
Lohikäärme is a fine word too. (Btw, Russian dragon is also a snake - Zmey). And as far as I know scandinavian dragons are wormes?
Post by: Pessi on August 21, 2015, 02:16:16 AM
:uk: As far as I know the Scandinavian dragons belong to the class "orm", snake, not "mask", worm, though usually they seem to be called "drake". The Finnish word "lohikäärme" is probably a partly translation of the old scandinavian word for dragon, "floghdraki", flying snake.
Post by: Bobriha on August 21, 2015, 10:22:25 AM
And there are some Finnish words I would like to find about:
nään like in "vaikka pilvien nousun nään".
eli like in "että kerran keskellä kesää elin suurta ja säteilevää". Is it an equivalent of oli?
Post by: Pessi on August 24, 2015, 03:02:01 AM
Eli on hankalampi, en keksi sille suoralta kädeltä muuta englanninkielistä vastinetta kuin "so". Latinan sana ergo on kai lähin vastine. "Cogito, ergo sum" = Ajattelen, eli olen [olemassa].
:uk: Nään is a poetic and colloquial shortening of the word näen, "I see". It turns a two-syllable word neatly into a one-syllable word, which is terribly practical for making poems.
Eli is more difficult, I can't straght out think of any other English counterpart than "so". I guess the latin word ergo is the nearest counterpart. "Cogito, ergo sum" = I think, so i exist.
Post by: Auleliel on August 24, 2015, 03:19:31 AM
Eli is more difficult, I can't straght out think of any other English counterpart than "so". I guess the latin word ergo is the nearest counterpart. "Cogito, ergo sum" = I think, so i exist.Would "therefore" also be a good translation, then?
Post by: Bobriha on August 24, 2015, 03:31:31 AM
This eli seems to be a verb, doesn't it? There is another sentence I've met it:
Quote
Haaveet onnellisesta tulevaisuudesta sulhasen kanssa elivät vahvoina Harmajan mielessä.It conjugates like a verb.
Post by: Laufey on August 24, 2015, 04:10:57 AM
Would "therefore" also be a good translation, then?
Yes, I would translate eli as "therefore" myself. :)
Thanks, Pessi!
This eli seems to be a verb, doesn't it? There is another sentence I've met it: It conjugates like a verb.
"Haaveet onnellisesta tulevaisuudesta sulhasen kanssa elivät vahvoina Harmajan mielessä."
That's actually another word altogether, a conjugation of the verb elää (= to live). It looks deceivingly similar but is actually a completely different word than eli.
Post by: Bobriha on August 24, 2015, 08:14:20 AM
That's actually another word altogether, a conjugation of the verb elää (= to live). It looks deceivingly similar but is actually a completely different word than eli.
Got it!
What a tricky word it is.
Post by: Pessi on August 25, 2015, 02:20:52 AM
:uk: Oops, sorry Bobriha. I didn't read your example at all, just started to wonder straight away how to translate "eli" to English. True, it is also singular third person imperfect of the verb "elää", to live.
:finland: Tämä on muuten hyvä esimerkki siitä, miten suomen sanoista saa hauskoja pulmatehtäviä tyyliin "mistä kaikista kantamuodoista voi johtaa sanan 'paloin'" (minulle tulee mieleen vain kolme vaihtoehtoa, mutta niitä saattaa olla enemmänkin).
:uk: This is btw a good example of how you can create funny puzzles from the Finnish words like "list the alternate basic forms for the word 'paloin'" (I can only think of three alternatives, but there may be more).
:finland: Kiitos Auleliel, therefore on juuri oikea sana. Englannintaitoni kohenee silmissä =)
:uk: Thank you Auleliel, therefore is exactly the right word. My English skills are growing wildly =)
Post by: Bobriha on August 26, 2015, 09:19:03 AM
Post by: Bobriha on September 08, 2015, 09:20:50 AM
Post by: Auleliel on September 08, 2015, 09:36:08 AM
EDIT: So I went on a search to try to buy the CD for this song, and it's not on the group's website, and it's not on iTunes, and it's not on Amazon... How can I buy this song??? I want it sooo much...
Post by: Pessi on September 09, 2015, 01:07:59 AM
:finland: Mastorava (CD jolla laulu "Kuulin äänen" on) on 14 vuotta vanha, joten se ei ehkä ole enää myynnissä. MeNaisten verkkosivujen mukaan sitä on myynyt Digelius, jonka valikoimassa se ei enää ole, ja Jukeboxshop, jolla ei näytä olevan enää edes sivuja verkossa. Sanoisin, että parasta on ottaa yhteyttä suoraan yhtyeeseen ja kysyä heiltä. Heidän verkkosivuillaan annetaan kaksi yhteyshenkilöä, Anna-Kaisa Liedes (aliedes (at) siba.fi) ja Maari Kallberg (maarikallberg (at) gmail.com).
Post by: Pessi on October 09, 2015, 02:17:06 AM
Lucky thing I've read to my kids anyway just for fun and partly also to make them realise what fun books are.
Post by: Bobriha on October 09, 2015, 08:10:32 AM
I thought I'd share with you a thing I found amusing: I just read a Child Health Center's recommendation that Finnish parents should read a lot to their small children, for otherwise the children won't learn the standard language since no one actually speaks it.
I wonder, how weird would look a person that tries to speak standard Finnish in daily life for average Finn?
Post by: Laufey on October 09, 2015, 02:11:57 PM
I wonder, how weird would look a person that tries to speak standard Finnish in daily life for average Finn?
I can actually answer this because I can easily switch to standard Finnish! My parents and especailly my grandparents who were both teachers decided it was best to only speak standard Finnish around me so I would learn it from the start, and that's what happened. I've also always read a lot of books: I learned to read at age three* so by the time I started ground school I was fully fluent in standard Finnish.
I sounded awkward. It was the only way I could speak but to others I sounded snooty and weird, going by what I was told at least. To make matters worse I've always liked rules and doing things correctly - as in going for the absolute right - and I definitely viewed standard Finnish as the correct way of speaking the language even as a child. I stuck to it and refused to learn spoken Finnish until I was a teen. For a native Finn it does sound pompous and uppity, as if you're elevating yourself way above others, but if you're a language learner it just makes you sound correct and hardworking for having learned it.
*I still remember the moment when letters started to make sense. I was sitting on the green plastic floor of our kitchen in the house we used to live in, and a part of newspaper had fallen down. I was looking at the pictures of an alphabet book and remembering a few sounds decided to try them out for the paper, so the first word I ever read aloud was the name of the newspaper, Helsingin Sanomat.
Post by: Pessi on October 10, 2015, 10:50:35 AM
I've actually heard rather small children switch to standard language when they are playing at being someone else, and even grownups often automatically switch to it in SCA and live roleplays. I guess it's a way to erase one's own personality and enter another.
:finland: Ymmärtämättömyyteni tästä asiasta saattaa hyvin juontaa juurensa siihen seikkaan, että minäkin opin lukemaan melko varhain, nelivuotiaana (suomea on varsin helppo oppia lukemaan, koska kirjoitus on enimmäkseen täysin foneettista). Ja tietysti useimmat lasten tv-ohjelmien hahmot puhuvat yleiskieltä.
Olen itseasiassa kuullut melko pientenkin lasten vaihtavan yleiskieleen leikkiessään olevansa joku muu, ja aikuisetkin usein vaihtavat siihen automaattisesti SCA:ssa ja liveroolipeleissä. Se lienee yksi tapa häivyttää oma persoona ja omaksua toinen tilalle.
Post by: FinnishViking on October 12, 2015, 12:09:49 PM
I wonder, how weird would look a person that tries to speak standard Finnish in daily life for average Finn?
Well personally i think most people can speak the formal language, but this usually only happens in situations like job interviews and other places where you aren't exactly certain on how relaxed the enviroment is.
Personally i speak my mush of savonian-internet dialect with my friends, switch to something between savonian and karelian dialect when talking with my grandparents and then depending on someones age i try either going with my normal way of speech i use with friends or with older people i start out with a bit more formality.
Post by: olavi on October 23, 2015, 06:09:20 PM
Personally I've noticed I instinctly shift towards standard in some situtations. The most obvious situtations are official work related communication or dealing with bureaucracy. This is pretty much what FinnishViking said. Somewhat as excepted I drop the accent when talking to elders who I'm not accuinted with already. I think this is quite common practice, but what's interesting to me is I don't really do it consciously.
Another situtation where this automatic shift happens is while I'm talking to immigrants, even though I think it would propably be better if I spoke the local dialect. The shift just happens. Maybe it's a response to somewhat broken finnish or subconscious expectation that they understand standard better. I just hope it doesn't come out as offensive or pejorative. :-\
Post by: Laufey on December 02, 2015, 05:55:59 AM
Suomalainen
Suomalainen on sellainen, joka vastaa kun ei kysytä,
kysyy kun ei vastata, ei vastaa kun kysytään,
sellainen, joka eksyy tieltä, huutaa rannalla
ja vastarannalla huutaa toinen samanlainen:
metsä raikuu, kaikuu, hongat humajavat.
Tuolta tulee suomalainen ja ähkyy, on tässä ja ähkyy,
tuonne menee ja ähkyy, on kuin löylyssä ja ähkyy
kun toinen heittää kiukaalle vettä.
Sellaisella suomalaisella on aina kaveri,
koskaan se ei ole yksin, ja se kaveri on suomalainen.
Eikä suomalaista erota suomalaisesta mikään,
ei mikään paitsi kuolema ja poliisi.
The Finn
A Finn is the one who answers when not asked,
Asks when no one answers and doesn't answer when asked,
The kind that gets lost from the road and yells at the lakeside
And there's another one yelling on the opposite shore:
The forest clangs, echoes, pines are humming.
There comes a Finn and grunts, is here and grunts,
Goes over there and grunts, grunting like in sauna
When someone throws water on the sauna stove.
A Finn like that always has a friend,
Is never alone, and the friend is a Finn.
And nothing separates a Finn from a Finn,
Nothing except for death and the police.
Post by: Bobriha on December 02, 2015, 01:40:10 PM
Onko se toinen suomalainen todellinen, vai onko se vain kaikua...
Ja minä, kun oli synkä päivä, kirjoitin sen:
Kaikki on harmaata,
taivaskin,
lumikin.
Mutta on kaukana,
kaupungin takana,
kukkuloitten pirta valkoinen
mullan ja pilvien välissä.
And I would like to share this kuvasanakirja: http://www.scoop.it/t/oppitori?page=1&tag=k (http://www.scoop.it/t/oppitori?page=1&tag=k)
Post by: Oxi on January 01, 2016, 03:01:17 PM
:uk: Hey everyone! I'm Oxi and I speak little Finnish. I have studied Finnish for three years (but my vocabulary is not good, and I use Google Translate and Wiktionary for many words).
I don't know almost anything about colloquial Finnish, either :<
Post by: Bobriha on January 02, 2016, 01:28:35 AM
(Minä uskon, että kaikkia:n sijasta on oleva "kaikille". Mutta en ole suomalaista itse ja teenkin aina erehdyksiä.)
Ja Wikisanakirja on meidan kaikki! ;D Ja joskus Kielitoimiston sanakirja http://www.kielitoimistonsanakirja.fi/netmot.exe?motportal=80 (http://www.kielitoimistonsanakirja.fi/netmot.exe?motportal=80)
Edit: Partitiivi will kill me one day.
Post by: Cancvas on January 07, 2016, 04:43:59 AM
Kannattaa lukaista tuo Laufeyn kuvaus suomalaisista (jostain syystä kuulin tuota muksuna paljon), koska meille "small talk" on useimmiten hiljaisuus, joten tuppaamme tarttumaan vain asioihin jotka ovat provokatiivisia tai muutoin vaativat vastauksen, kuten kysymys.
You should read Layfeys decription of finns (for reason or the other I heard that quite bit as a kid), because our small talk is often silence, so we tend only to take on the things which are provocative or otherwise need an answer, like question.
-C
Post by: Bobriha on January 07, 2016, 07:15:27 AM
Hei Oxi ja Bobriha! This is a bit late answer, but you can say either "Hei kaikille" (Hi to everyone), or "Hei kaikki" (Hi, everyone). :)Hei Letizia ja kiitos!
:finland: Bobriha, olet kirjoittanut todella viehättäviä runoja! Nostan hattua, en varmaankaan itse saisi aikaiseksi kirjoittaa runoa millään vieraalla kielellä. Olen itse aika uusi tällä foorumilla, ja on hienoa huomata miten paljon täällä on eri kielistä kiinnostuneita ihmisiä. Tekisi mieli aloittaa itsekin jonkin uuden kielen opiskelu.
:uk: You've written very nice poems! Kudos to you, I don't think I'd manage to write a poem in any of the foreign languages I know. I'm rather new to this forum, and it's great to see so many people who are interested in different languages here. I want to start learning some new language myself...
En minäkään luullut että kirjoitaisin runoja muiksi kieliksi kuin venäjäksi. Se onkin hyvä vieraan kielen harjoitus.
And if you feel like starting learning new language by all means do so! It's much of fun. (And is useful sometimes. I've found a recipe for my curently favorite dough for sweet pies on a Finnish site)
Quote
Ah, sorry to tell you this but you don't actually need partitive for the sentence "en ole suomalainen". In plural, however it would be in partitive: "emme ole suomalaisia". That is quite confusing now that I think about it!B-but doesn't negative statement require partitive?
Post by: Pupunen on January 07, 2016, 10:19:27 AM
B-but doesn't negative statement require partitive?Googlettelin tätä ikuisuuden ja sain selville, että kyseessä on predikatiivilause, eikä predikatiivi ole partitiivissa edes kieltolauseessa. Asia on selitetty esim. täällä: http://thefinnishteacher.weebly.com/lausetyypit--the-types-of-clause.html
I spent ages googling this and found out that the statement in question is a predicative clause, and the predicative is never in the partitive form even when the sentence is negative. It's explained e.g. here: http://thefinnishteacher.weebly.com/lausetyypit--the-types-of-clause.html
Post by: Bobriha on January 07, 2016, 11:35:16 AM
Googlettelin tätä ikuisuuden ja sain selville, että kyseessä on predikatiivilause, eikä predikatiivi ole partitiivissa edes kieltolauseessa. Asia on selitetty esim. täällä: http://thefinnishteacher.weebly.com/lausetyypit--the-types-of-clause.html
I spent ages googling this and found out that the statement in question is a predicative clause, and the predicative is never in the partitive form even when the sentence is negative. It's explained e.g. here: http://thefinnishteacher.weebly.com/lausetyypit--the-types-of-clause.html
Wow, thank you for your effort! And the site itself looks very useful.
En minä koskaan teen sitä erehdystä taas! Sen sijasta ajon tehdä tuhannet muita erehdyksiä ;D
Post by: Pupunen on January 07, 2016, 02:24:52 PM
Wow, thank you for your effort! And the site itself looks very useful.
En minä koskaan teen sitä erehdystä taas! Sen sijasta ajon tehdä tuhannet muita erehdyksiä ;D
:finland: Eipä mitään. :) Sitä paitsi aloin asiaa mietittyäni epäillä, ettei se voi olla ihan noin yksinkertaista, ja kävin kaivelemassa Isoa suomen kielioppia. Sen mukaan predikatiivi itse asiassa voi olla joko nominatiivissa tai partitiivissa sen mukaan, onko subjekti jaollinen vai jaoton. Jos subjekti on jaoton, predikatiivi on nominatiivissa (esim. Lalli on kissa, Sigrun on pitkä , Emil ei ole islantilainen). Jos subjekti on jaoton, predikatiivi on partitiivissa (esim. Mikkelin tekemä ruoka on pahaa, Lallin kylpyvesi ei ole kylmää). Monikossa käytetään partitiivia, kun viitataan joukkoon (esim. Tuuri ja Lalli ovat suomalaisia, Retkikunnan jäsenet ovat epäpäteviä) ja nominatiivia, kun viitataan jaottomaan tai yhteen kuuluvaan kokonaisuuteen (esim.Lallin jalat ovat pitkät, Reynirin hiukset ovat punaiset).
Tämäkin on aikamoinen yksinkertaistus, mutta toivottavasti siitä on jotakin apua. Jos haluat syventyä tarkemmin predikatiivien ihmeelliseen maailmaan, siitä kerrotaan vaikka kuinka paljon kaikkea kivaa täällä: http://scripta.kotus.fi/visk/sisallys.php?p=943
Jos joku osaa selittää tämän jotenkin ymmärrettävämmin niin en pane pahakseni! :D
:uk: No problem. :) In any case, I started to suspect that it really wasn't quite that simple, so I took a look in Iso suomen kielioppi. It said that the predicative can in fact be in either the nominative or the partitive case, depending on whether the subject is divisible or indivisible. If the subject is a count word, the predicative is in the nominative case (e.g. esim. Lalli on kissa, Sigrun on pitkä , Emil ei ole islantilainen). If the subject is a non-count word, the predicative is in the partitive case (e.g. Mikkelin tekemä ruoka on pahaa, Lallin kylpyvesi ei ole kylmää). In the plural, the partitive is used when referring to a group (e.g. Tuuri ja Lalli ovat suomalaisia, Retkikunnan jäsenet ovat epäpäteviä) and the nominative is used when referring to something that is indivisible or belongs together (e.g. Lallin jalat ovat pitkät, Reynirin hiukset ovat punaiset).
This is still quite simplified, but I hope it helps at least a little bit. If you want to find out more about the wonderful predicative, there's a lot of fun information about it here: http://scripta.kotus.fi/visk/sisallys.php?p=943
I'd be happy if someone could explain this more clearly! :D
Post by: Bobriha on January 08, 2016, 12:03:45 PM
And I jumped in conclusion that any negative sentense would require partitive. I do have a story of making quick but entirely wrong conclusions.
So, if to present it as a table
Positive Negative
Suomalainen (count-word) Minä olen suomalainen (nom.) Minä en ole suomalainen (nom)
but:
Minulla on ystävä suomalainen. Minulla ei ole ystävää suomalaista
Kirjakaupassa on suomalainen. Kirjakaupassa ei ole suomalaista
Vesi (non-count word) Tämä on vettä (part.) Tämä ei ole vettä (part.)
and so on
would this look correct?
Haluaisin osata venäjää paremmin, olen opiskellut pari alkeiskurssia mutta siitäkin on jo aikaa ja olen tainnut unohtaa suuren osan. Sitten on monia muitakin kieliä joita olisi hauska opiskella, jos olisi määrättömästi aikaa!Minä olen venäläinen. Ja minä haluaisin puhua/kirjoitaa enemmän suomeksi, koska unohdan sitä ilman harjoituksia. Lukemista vain ei ole riitoisaa.
I'd like to know Russian better, I took a couple of elementary courses but it's been a long time and I've forgotten a lot of what I knew. And then there are other languages I'd be interested to learn, if only I had enough time for everything. :>
If you like to have penpal for Russian do PM me!
Post by: Pupunen on January 08, 2016, 03:40:06 PM
So, if to present it as a table
Positive Negative
Suomalainen (count-word) Minä olen suomalainen (nom.) Minä en ole suomalainen (nom)
but:
Minulla on ystävä suomalainen. Minulla ei ole ystävää suomalaista
Kirjakaupassa on suomalainen. Kirjakaupassa ei ole suomalaista
Vesi (non-count word) Tämä on vettä (part.) Tämä ei ole vettä (part.)
and so on
would this look correct?
Great! :) You just need to put the adjective before the noun in Minulla on suomalainen ystävä and Minulla ei ole suomalaista ystävää, but the cases are all correct.
Post by: Bobriha on February 03, 2016, 08:18:17 AM
Minun pöydälläni on lasissa
kolme hopeapensaan varpua.
Helmikuu on aivan alussa
ja liukuvat ohitseni
päivät, tuulit, lumisadet.
Voinko minä sanoa varmasti,
että ikävystynyt jo olen talveen,
että kaipaan kyllä kevättä
nyt, suoraan pakkasen sielusta?
Että latvojen selvä etsaus,
että pihlajan marjoilla makaavat
nämä pöyheät valkoiset lakit
eivät iloa vie enää?
Niin sanon ”pian kevät tulee”
sekä ”pian sireenit kukkivat”,
kuin ”pian” merkitsisi ”huomenna”.
Niin katselen hiljaista aroa,
jolla hanki on kumara aaltoina,
kuin kangasvuokkojen idut
jo yltyleensä sillä näkyisivät
lumen rakeisen tahroja keskella.
Vaan huonessani, sen lämmössä,
kolmen hopeapensaan varpua
silmut ovat kai vähän paisuneet.
Post by: Sananjalka on February 04, 2016, 08:13:05 PM
Spoiler: show
Pidän tyylistäsi. Se on kuin sekoitus suosikkirunoilijaani P. Mustapäätä ja uudemman ajan naisrunoilijoita.
Minä korjaisin kielioppia ja sanastoa esimerkiksi näin:
Spoiler: show
Some of my edits are simple morphological corrections; others are more about stylistics, and one could rewrite those parts in an entirely different manner. The question marks indicate that I am not quite sure what you have tried to express. It might have something to do with the fact that I do not know what a steppe looks like when covered in snow.
Please note that kaipaan jotakin is most often correct, but if the longing has a direction instead of an object, then kaipaan jostakin jonnekin is better.
I suppose you are already familiar with the nomen type sade : sateen, huone : huoneen and simply forgot about the slightly tricky declension. Am I right?
Feel free to ask questions or give explanations.
Post by: Bobriha on February 06, 2016, 06:31:43 AM
Yes, I should remember about the way words change and it's shame I didn't.
I reversed words' order mostly for rhythm purposes but I see the variant with your corrections sounds just OK. And it allows sydämestä!
And also thanks for explaining about kaivata. I wasn't sure about it.
Steppe covered with snow (and what I meant particularly) looks like this:
(https://pp.vk.me/c633427/v633427004/102f4/vbbKJndqKZI.jpg)
(https://pp.vk.me/c633427/v633427004/102fe/LfRS8WnVrtU.jpg)
(The fotos are shot by my friend, from her permission. Btw local year's most early Pulsatillas' sprouts are found under that lone standing pine tree)
If you have good description for these please share it!
Post by: Sananjalka on February 06, 2016, 11:19:12 PM
I am not exactly a seafarer either, but the Finnish literary language as I know it likes metaphors related to water, so tyrsky was the first thing that came to mind.
Sadly enough, the pictures do not help me to decide between sillä versus siellä. Perhaps I should pick siellä (adverb), because sillä (noun, adessive case), in this context, is somehow pulling me towards feeling that the poor plants have no roots.
pälvi is a funny word: wherever most of the ground is covered in snow towards the end of the winter, it refers to the small snow-free patches (also: sulapälvi), but once the spring has taken over, it refers to the remaining patches of snow (also: lumipälvi). rakeiset lumilaikut may be closer to your original idea, but using pälvi makes the expression shorter and therefore more flexible when it comes to rhythm.
***
What you say about reversing word orders makes me ponder. Traditional Finnish poetry bends word orders very heavily, but that is usually done in order to achieve a rigorous rhythm-and-rhyme formula. I have read somewhere that in the Russian-language culture, the older and stricter rules of poetry were loosened by respected poets at some point and the results were deemed fruitful (and this had a huge impact on smaller Soviet literary cultures of that time, too). Meanwhile in Finland (mainly during the 1950s and the 1960s, I think), there was a bitter confrontation between the old school and the new school. Most younger poets completely abandoned rhyme and pretty much gave up old rhythm rules as well. This is why I might not have enough tradition to lean on: in my world, it has been so much more of an "either-or".
I do not have much theoretical knowledge on what kinds of word order bending are "allowed" and what kinds are not. I do have a pretty clear intuition when it comes to the older style; but when I write bits of modern-style poetry in Finnish myself, I try to remain on the safe side and avoid venturing too far from prose syntax. What I am trying to say, I may have "corrected" your word orders too much, but we would need a specialist (or at least several hours of coordinated work) to reach your aesthetic ideal in Finnish.
Nevertheless, that old-school intuition of mine is screaming that you should try "eivät enää iloa vie" if that happens to sound better to you...
Hrm. I hope you do not mind if I have another go. I have been rather sick for a couple of days, and this makes for some good brain exercise now that I am getting better.
***
Spoiler: show
Post by: Sananjalka on February 07, 2016, 11:20:47 AM
as a reader and a hobbyist writer I don't think it should be "one convention or the other"
Neither do I. Those who controlled publishing high-end modern poetry in Finland did, for decades (not sure what the case is today). Partially because of that, I have never read much Finnish poetry similar to Bobriha’s, as regards semi-free rhythm.
So, at first, I simply read the work as a free-verse poem relying on wordings, flow, and spacing (Finnish tauotus is what I would like to say here) to create images, feelings and atmosphere. That worked out pretty well. As soon as I realized that rhythmic choices had more importance than that, my point of view changed regarding some of my own suggestions.
Also, word-level ambiguity in poetry and fiction is something I often find fascinating (e.g. I read sillä = arolla, but you might have read it differently), and I personally liked some of those original expressions a lot.
That is certainly a key issue here. kumarat aallot sounds very unnatural to me, but I believe I have constructed just as weird combinations for my own poems in the past and they may have worked out fine – depending on the reader, of course. The decision was not an easy one, but I thought I should tug the poem to safer waters, to make it stylistically more balanced (and boring?), because the writer is still in the progress of learning the language.
I think it is marvelous how near professional level Bobriha gets as a Finnish poet, even without any help, before having completely mastered some nomen declensions. Luckily for us, I am not her editor (kustannustoimittaja) at a publishing house. As far as Bobriha herself allows it, the web age enables all of us to share different versions of her works, and hopefully every correction suggestion gives some more insight into how the Finnish language works.
Oikeastaan haluaisin kirjoittaa täällä enemmän vain suomeksi, mutta Bobrihan runo tempasi minut niin monimutkaisiin pohdiskeluihin, että kieltämme opiskeleville ihmisille se olisi varmaankin ollut hyvin raskasta.
Post by: Bobriha on February 08, 2016, 10:50:19 AM
Tästä tulee mulle mieleen yksi paikka: kun olin lapsi niin meillä oli rannassa saunamökki ja sen nurkalla kasvoi valkovuokkoja. Keväisin seurattiin, kun ne nousivat mullasta ja sammalesta ensin kumarina ja vähitellen avasivat kukkansa. Valkovuokot eivät olleet kovin yleisiä siellä, joten niissä oli jotakin erityistä, vähän jännittikin että ovatko ne selvinneet talven yli. Ne menestyivät kuitenkin hyvin ja levisivätkin niin, että niitä oli joinakin vuosina suuri matto kuusen alla.
Tässä kasvavat arovuokkot, jotka kuuluvat samalle suvulle. Vaikka ne ovat minusta (vai voinko käyttää ”minua värten”?) ensin tulevan kesän merkki. Ne ovat tässä viimeiset kevätkukasta, siis kun ne lopettavat kukkia, kesä alkaa.
Sen jälkeen höyhenheinät kukkivat, ja sitten tulee se ikävä aika viimeisten kukkien ja ensimmaisten hedelmien välissä. Ja se on usein kuivaa ja kuumaa.
Siis, se onkin vähän surullinen merkki.
Quote
(e.g. I read sillä = arolla, but you might have read it differently)Yup, this is what it meant to be. But siellä seams to be better. Or maybe nothing at all.
What you say about reversing word orders makes me ponder. Traditional Finnish poetry bends word orders very heavily, but that is usually done in order to achieve a rigorous rhythm-and-rhyme formula. I have read somewhere that in the Russian-language culture, the older and stricter rules of poetry were loosened by respected poets at some point and the results were deemed fruitful (and this had a huge impact on smaller Soviet literary cultures of that time, too). Meanwhile in Finland (mainly during the 1950s and the 1960s, I think), there was a bitter confrontation between the old school and the new school. Most younger poets completely abandoned rhyme and pretty much gave up old rhythm rules as well. This is why I might not have enough tradition to lean on: in my world, it has been so much more of an "either-or".
Yes indeed, while works of futurists showed us new forms of a poetry, classical feet and rhymes never complitely gave up their positions in Russian poetry. If modern poet would write a poem in traditional way it wouldn't be perceived as something outdated. I myself when writing in Russian mostly lean towards traditional style (not that I am a big of a poet of course).
But alas I am not really acquainted with modern Finnish poetry.
Sananjalka, if you feel like sharing your poems please do.
As far as Bobriha herself allows it, the web age enables all of us to share different versions of her works, and hopefully every correction suggestion gives some more insight into how the Finnish language works.
I am absolutely fine with it. And I am really grateful for your effort! I examined your versions of the poem with great interest.
Post by: moonamaija on February 11, 2016, 04:15:05 PM
I think it is marvelous how near professional level Bobriha gets as a Finnish poet, even without any help, before having completely mastered some nomen declensions.
Pääaineeni on suomen kieli eikä kirjallisuus ihan syystä, mutta tätä runokeskustelua oli tosi kiinnostavaa lukea. Kiitos varsinkin Bobriha, runosi on ihana. :)
I just wanted to add this (http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2013/03/the-average-fourth-grader-is-a-better-poet-than-you-and-me-too/) to the topic of Bobriha's epic skill: it might just be that Bobriha's learning level allows them to use Finnish in a "truer" (or new and unpredictable and thus more touching) way, since they're not restricted by all of the linguistic conventions us natives have internalized. All respect to your lovely and v probably time-consumed writing and language skills, though, Bobriha, this was just a note I found interesting, and was not meant to little the work you've put to your poem.
Post by: Grey-cat on March 03, 2016, 09:43:10 AM
http://www.digitaldialects.com/Finnish.htm (http://www.digitaldialects.com/Finnish.htm)
Also, I skimmed through this pronunciation giude first and it was actually pretty good.
https://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/finnish.pronunciation.html (https://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/finnish.pronunciation.html)
Although
Post by: Grey-cat on March 03, 2016, 09:48:53 AM
Although.....although I wasn't sure if the links would work, so I went to see a preview and clicked 'post' instead. XD
Post by: Athena on May 05, 2016, 10:57:51 PM
Hey! This website has been pretty good for a beginner, like me:
http://www.digitaldialects.com/Finnish.htm (http://www.digitaldialects.com/Finnish.htm)
Also, I skimmed through this pronunciation giude first and it was actually pretty good.
https://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/finnish.pronunciation.html (https://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/finnish.pronunciation.html)
Although
Hey, that first site was actually the one I started with! :)
Sorry for the thread-necro! :-[
I've wanted to learn Finnish for a while (oddly enough, it began when I started reading SSSS ;)) and I finally have a bit of time in my schedule to do it. (not that I didn't have time before, but I was being lazy) I was wondering if anyone has any pointers for a beginner?
Post by: Bobriha on May 06, 2016, 08:44:04 AM
Hey, that first site was actually the one I started with! :)
Sorry for the thread-necro! :-[
Hello! I did it a lot for this thread;D Since nobody complained I believe it's OK?
Quote
I've wanted to learn Finnish for a while (oddly enough, it began when I started reading SSSS ;)) and I finally have a bit of time in my schedule to do it. (not that I didn't have time before, but I was being lazy) I was wondering if anyone has any pointers for a beginner?
I'd advise doing grammar exercices. A lot of them. You will never master all those endless cases, tenses, declensions and so on with just memorization. Would be good if you'd get yourself some regular textbook (with exercices). Those are not cheap, though. Check, maybe your local library has some?
And of cource if you have some questions don't hesitate to bring it here!
Ja kuitenkin, sikäli kuin olen jo tullut tähän, niin haluasin näyttää tätä kesärunoa, jonka kirjoitin jo maaliskuuna. Nopea Bobriha on nopea.
Se laulaa.
Taivaan, näkymättömiä kiuruja täynnä,
alla,
yli aron, häilyvien höyhenheinien,
joilla hitaat pilvien varjot vaeltavat,
muinaisella kivellä
se istuu, suu avoin,
ja tuuli lentää läpitsensä.
Kun polkupyörästä nouset
levähtääksesi –
on suuri maalilma, ja katsot nyt korkeukselta –
kun vesipullon kansin kierrät auki,
se laulaa.
Post by: Grey-cat on May 06, 2016, 02:09:01 PM
Ja kuitenkin, sikäli kuin olen jo tullut tähän, niin haluasin näyttää tätä kesärunoa, jonka kirjoitin jo maaliskuuna. Nopea Bobriha on nopea.
Se laulaa.
Taivaan, näkymättömiä kiuruja täynnä,
alla,
yli aron, häilyvien höyhenheinien,
joilla hitaat pilvien varjot vaeltavat,
muinaisella kivellä
se istuu, suu avoin,
ja tuuli lentää läpitsensä.
Kun polkupyörästä nouset
levähtääksesi –
on suuri maalilma, ja katsot nyt korkeukselta –
kun vesipullon kansin kierrät auki,
se laulaa.
Tuuli=wind
One word! I know one word out of all that! I'm so learned! T.T
Ah well I'll figure it out eventually.
Post by: Krisse Kovacs on May 06, 2016, 04:39:44 PM
Ja kuitenkin, sikäli kuin olen jo tullut tähän, niin haluasin näyttää tätä kesärunoa, jonka kirjoitin jo maaliskuuna. Nopea Bobriha on nopea.
Se laulaa.
Taivaan, näkymättömiä kiuruja täynnä,
alla,
yli aron, häilyvien höyhenheinien,
joilla hitaat pilvien varjot vaeltavat,
muinaisella kivellä
se istuu, suu avoin,
ja tuuli lentää läpitsensä.
Kun polkupyörästä nouset
levähtääksesi –
on suuri maalilma, ja katsot nyt korkeukselta –
kun vesipullon kansin kierrät auki,
se laulaa.
Tuuli=wind
One word! I know one word out of all that! I'm so learned! T.T
Ah well I'll figure it out eventually.
I got the "laulaa" which means "to sing"
"istua" means "to sit"
"mailmaa" means "world".
nyt means.... "now"? or something
and on/olen is olla, which means "to be"
se on - it is
(minä) olen - I am
se means... it
even with those lessons I took already, I don't know anything, because all language book start with teaching the basics like "who are you, where are you from" and such. and finnish is said to be not that easy language.
I wanted to start learning finnish in 2010, heard many finnish songs, and just see random finnish a lot, still only few words I could learn from those. I never got a teacher to help me out when I had questions so I gave up. pretty recently my friend offered me to teach me.
I am excited to take more lessons soon
Post by: princeofdoom on June 02, 2016, 07:20:39 PM
Post by: Laufey on June 02, 2016, 07:36:42 PM
Odd question: What are the words/"names" of the different fingers? Especially if they have particularly amusing literal meanings.
The main ones are:
peukalo = thumb
etusormi = "first/front finger"
keskisormi = "middle finger"
nimetön = "nameless"
pikkurilli/pikkusormi = "small finger"
But there's also old poems about them with different names for them... these ones are so old that they halfway don't make any sense anymore.
Peukaloputti (= thumb + ???no idea what putti means)
suomensutti (= finland's brush I think - sutti is an old word for suti, a brush)
vallesmanni (= lensmann)
kultaralli (= gold finger)
pikkurilli (= small finger).
Post by: Bobriha on July 11, 2016, 09:34:57 AM
Voiko kukaan lukea Kailaksen runon "Illan kanssa kahdenkesken" äänen? Vai ehkä sellainen levytys jo on olemassa jossakin?
(Ja, kuin tavallisesti, runoa :)
On sateinen kesä.
On kukkulan huippu
piillyt pilvien pohjaan.
Vihrea nurmi näkyy
läpi sateen savua.
Ei enää taivas ole korkea,
vaan se nyt on leveä.
Kalpea valo päylyy
kaukaisen pellon kasteilla.
Ei milloinkaan taivas ollut
yhtä leveä selvänä.)
Post by: rundrewrun on July 20, 2016, 06:58:23 PM
Post by: Bobriha on July 21, 2016, 03:29:45 AM
anyone have any other good online sites to learn on?
Hei Rundrewrun! I believe there is a good chunk of the links to such sites spread on the first pages of this thread. This one for example http://donnerwetter.kielikeskus.helsinki.fi/FinnishForForeigners/ch2-en/ch2-50-reading.htm (http://donnerwetter.kielikeskus.helsinki.fi/FinnishForForeigners/ch2-en/ch2-50-reading.htm). They also provide a whole list of helpful sites: http://donnerwetter.kielikeskus.helsinki.fi/FinnishForForeigners/ch2-en/ch2-50-reading.htm (http://donnerwetter.kielikeskus.helsinki.fi/FinnishForForeigners/ch2-en/ch2-50-reading.htm).
Post by: Pessi on September 07, 2016, 05:48:51 AM
In addition to the official names fingers have lots of different names in dialects, often derived from their uses. The index finger, etusormi, especially has many: nuolusormi = "licking finger", nenäsormi = "nose finger", potinnuolija = "pot licker", tupakkanäppi = "tobacco finger" and voinlappaja = "butter scooper".
Keskisormi is also called isosormi = "big finger" or koukkusormi = "hook finger", the last one because it's the finger used in the traditional game sormikoukku (http://sormikoukku.fi/), "finger hook".
Nimetön is just nimetön, "nameless", because it was believed to have magical powers which had to be protected by not naming the finger.
Pikkusormi has mostly different versions of names meaning "little" but has also been called piippasormi, "sprout finger".
Peukalo tends to be peukalo everywhere but gets funny additions like peukalopukki, "thumb billygoat", in children's rhymes - in which all fingers tend to have a myriad of funny nonsense names.
Post by: Krisse Kovacs on January 06, 2017, 01:43:12 PM
it was not an actual christmas present, she just got it printed right before christmas, so it seems like it was a present. I am learning from it with my friend, who teach me. I am so happy about it :Đ
Post by: heiteru on April 07, 2017, 01:20:52 AM
I have a Finnish textbook, teaching is divided into lessons and each lesson has several tasks to perform. I carry out these tasks and I try to do them correctly, but I have no one\anything who can find and point out my mistakes (and explain them). So if someone can help me with checking my tasks - I will be very grateful!
Post by: Pupunen on April 10, 2017, 12:21:45 PM
Okay, guys, I probably need your help (if you know the Finnish grammar and all like that).
I have a Finnish textbook, teaching is divided into lessons and each lesson has several tasks to perform. I carry out these tasks and I try to do them correctly, but I have no one\anything who can find and point out my mistakes (and explain them). So if someone can help me with checking my tasks - I will be very grateful!
I can try to help, I'm a native Finnish speaker. :)
Post by: heiteru on April 10, 2017, 01:25:11 PM
I can try to help, I'm a native Finnish speaker. :)Oh, it will be very, very cool!
I can scan the pages of my textbook with tasks and my notebook with the completed tasks, if it's convenient for you.
Post by: Pupunen on April 11, 2017, 11:05:51 AM
Oh, it will be very, very cool!
I can scan the pages of my textbook with tasks and my notebook with the completed tasks, if it's convenient for you.
Yeah, I'll PM you so we can figure out what would work best. :)
Post by: Ana Nymus on June 12, 2017, 12:21:28 AM
I've been trying to learn Finnish for quite a while now, and I do all right with vocabulary, but I can't find a way to study grammar that motivates me well. I've found that flash card websites, especially ones with streak counters, do work well for me, but I can't seem to find any good ones that deal with grammar. Does anyone know of anything like this? Really, anything that can be done a few minutes at a time and has a daily streak counter would work.
Spoiler: it works really well • show
Thank you in advance!
Post by: Athena on June 12, 2017, 11:56:25 AM
Mild thread necromancy for this, but I figured I might ask.
I've been trying to learn Finnish for quite a while now, and I do all right with vocabulary, but I can't find a way to study grammar that motivates me well. I've found that flash card websites, especially ones with streak counters, do work well for me, but I can't seem to find any good ones that deal with grammar. Does anyone know of anything like this? Really, anything that can be done a few minutes at a time and has a daily streak counter would work.Spoiler: it works really well • show
Thank you in advance!
I don't know anywhere to learn grammar, but what's that site you're using for vocabulary? I'd kinda like to try it.
Post by: Ana Nymus on June 12, 2017, 06:01:46 PM
I don't know anywhere to learn grammar, but what's that site you're using for vocabulary? I'd kinda like to try it.
It's called Memrise! Pretty standard as far as flash-card-based review websites go, but it does have a couple of nice added features (the daily streak counter being my favorite) and a boatload of preset courses you can choose from (here (https://www.memrise.com/courses/english/)). You can also make your own sets, of course.
It's a good web site, I like it :) There's just nothing very good there for Finnish grammar.
Post by: Athena on June 13, 2017, 12:02:59 AM
It's called Memrise! Pretty standard as far as flash-card-based review websites go, but it does have a couple of nice added features (the daily streak counter being my favorite) and a boatload of preset courses you can choose from (here (https://www.memrise.com/courses/english/)). You can also make your own sets, of course.
It's a good web site, I like it :) There's just nothing very good there for Finnish grammar.
Thanks! It looks like it's be a good site for reviewing my Spanish too - I've got a final coming up. :)
Post by: Quetanto on July 26, 2020, 06:37:47 AM
I thought I might supplement some of my pre-existing linguistics by actually sitting down and learning Finnish. According to the site I’m using I’ve learned about five hundred words already, which is pretty darn good, but, well, start early...are there any beginner’s books that might be recommended?
Post by: Jitter on July 26, 2020, 07:55:52 AM
Post by: Quetanto on July 26, 2020, 08:25:24 AM
Do you mean like school books meant for adults learning Finnish, or children’s books?
Hmm, good question…what would you recommend? I'm open to either, methinks.
Post by: Vulpes on July 26, 2020, 10:00:41 AM
Post by: Quetanto on July 26, 2020, 01:16:50 PM
Somewhere I saw Eila ja Ossi recommended, I gather it's intended for immigrants to Finland. I managed to find a pdf online, but then got swamped with work (and my trip to Finland cancelled :( ) so didn't get far. But I'm planning to get back to it once I finish renovating my home office. What website are you using?
I can take a look...thanks!
I’m using Duolingo at the moment–great for speaking, not so much for grammar.
Post by: Jitter on July 26, 2020, 01:27:01 PM
I have no idea how good (or not) these are in terms of being interesting / engaging, but the language will likely be correct.
Post by: Mirasol on July 26, 2020, 02:54:05 PM
When I googled the book Vulpes mentioned, one of the first things that came up was a website dedicated to book recommendations for learning Finnish. I´m not sure how helpful it is, and whether you already found it, but I´ll drop it here anyway:
https://finland.fi/life-society/how-the-heck-do-you-learn-finnish-part-1/
Post by: Annuil on July 26, 2020, 03:55:45 PM
I can take a look...thanks!Yeah, I’m using Duolingo as well and I like how it works for me. But of course the best way to learn any language is to take regular lessons from that language-speaking person, I think.
I’m using Duolingo at the moment–great for speaking, not so much for grammar.
Actually I made an interesting thing - I made my Siri (that digital person in the iPhone you can give commands to) speak Finnish! :'D It’s really fun to talk to it, especially when you are just trying to practice pronunciation (and don’t really understand what it says back :'D)
It depends a lot on a person who is learning because the best ways to learn might be different. Like, I couldn’t use the book to learn Finnish because I needed someone to teach me how to pronounce everything in there (transcriptions are sometimes hard to get). But again, it depends on the kind of the mind which is learning.
Post by: Vulpes on July 26, 2020, 07:20:45 PM
Here is a collection page of teaching videos by YLE, the Finnish public broadcaster: https://yle.fi/aihe/oppiminen/suomen-kielen-alkeet
I have no idea how good (or not) these are in terms of being interesting / engaging, but the language will likely be correct.
Oh, I gotta keep this thread in mind, I´m also still looking for something better than Quizlet to learn! (Don´t learn Finnish from scratch with Quizlet. At least not with Quizlets other people made. They keep having spelling mistakes.)
When I googled the book Vulpes mentioned, one of the first things that came up was a website dedicated to book recommendations for learning Finnish. I´m not sure how helpful it is, and whether you already found it, but I´ll drop it here anyway:
https://finland.fi/life-society/how-the-heck-do-you-learn-finnish-part-1/
Thanks to you both, those are new to me! Can hardly wait to get my little work-space set up so that I can talk to myself without driving my SO crazy.
Post by: Ana Nymus on July 27, 2020, 10:22:27 AM
I’m using Duolingo at the moment–great for speaking, not so much for grammar.
Duolingo finally added Finnish???? Maybe it's time to revisit my attempts to learn... I do well with the "gamification" style of learning, after all...
Post by: Annuil on July 27, 2020, 04:53:23 PM
Duolingo finally added Finnish????Yes! They actually did! I was so excited when I found that out!
That’s my favorite and most convenient (I think) app for learning languages ;)
Post by: Suominoita on July 28, 2020, 07:56:47 AM
Also, Ismo Leikola says Finnish Small Talk is Advanced:
It's funny because it's true!
And don't forget the old (black&white) pronomini-rock (or pronoun-rock) by Pertti "Spede" Pasanen.
Post by: Mirasol on July 28, 2020, 10:41:12 AM
Duolingo finally added Finnish???? Maybe it's time to revisit my attempts to learn... I do well with the "gamification" style of learning, after all...
Wait what??? Maybe it´s time to redownload that app...
And now that we began learning Finnish, check this out so you don´t get too stuck with stuff you don´t really need: ...
"No niin". I´ll keep that in mind, it seems to be really usefull. :'D
For the second one, the subtitles don´t seem to work. Youtube thinks it is Spanish for some reason. I highly doubt he´s talking about gods with asthma...
Oh no, the third one will be stuck in my head for all eternity. :'D
Post by: Vulpes on July 28, 2020, 02:34:49 PM
Nova Scotia (especially the more northern part of the mainland and Cape Breton Island): inhaled "Yuh". Impossible to convey in writing, it's part audible inhale, part whisper. Can be used to indicate assent, surprise, or lack of surprise, among many others.
New Brunswick, at least in Carelton County: "Yes sir". Emphasis on yes; sir usually almost inaudible. Most often used as filler when the conversation lags.
Newfoundland & Labrador: "Yes b'y". Every bit as versatile as "no niin". May indicate agreement or assent, but more likely to show surprise, disbelief, disapproval, pleasure, etc.... or act as filler when the conversation lags, although that doesn't often happen.
Post by: Jitter on July 28, 2020, 04:12:55 PM
Post by: Annuil on July 29, 2020, 09:11:10 PM
Oh no, the third one will be stuck in my head for all eternity. :'D
Same with me! At least it’s a pronunciation song, so it’s not too bad to have it being stuck in your head! :'D
Post by: Suominoita on August 13, 2020, 02:39:54 AM
So in the second one Ismo starts it with saying that it's an incorrect rumor that Finns can't do small talk - our small talk is just a more developed/advanced version. It happens when two or three men who don't know each other are in the sauna together:
For the second one, the subtitles don´t seem to work. Youtube thinks it is Spanish for some reason. I highly doubt he´s talking about gods with asthma...
"ohhoh" (Oh my, we must talk!!)
"semmosta" (That's what [it is] like)
"kyllä." (Yes! We have done the talking. We can stop now)
None of them would be making those noises without the other(s). This forms a connection there -- and later they say if someone asks: "Yes, I know him. Good fellow" despite never meeting again after the sauna session.
Ismo isn't curious enough to ask his wife about 2-3 women small talking in the sauna I guess... :D
Post by: Jitter on October 05, 2020, 03:35:03 PM
Post by: Mirasol on October 06, 2020, 05:15:59 AM
Post by: Annuil on October 06, 2020, 12:57:53 PM
I’ve only learned the very basics of Finnish and some phrases, so I don’t know what am I going to do when time to study all those 15 cases will come... My brain is already freaking out!
Post by: Pessi on March 23, 2021, 08:39:04 AM
Ismo isn't curious enough to ask his wife about 2-3 women small talking in the sauna I guess... :D
That usually goes like this:
"Is it ok if I throw some löyly?"
"Yes."
According to my experience among old acquaintances the talk usually sooner or later concentrates around menstruating, being pregnant, giving birth and nursing babies and how tiresome all that is ;)
Annuil, I don't know if it will make you any happier, but most Finns don't actually remember the cases. We just use them as we've learned by talking with other people and reading books. My own 11-year old still makes occasional grammatical errors with cases (what case to use, how to "bend" some specific word etc.) and though I of course correct him, most of the time I have no difficulty understanding what he is saying.
Post by: Raaffiie on March 23, 2021, 10:36:32 AM
There's also this blog called The Finnish Teacher(https://thefinnishteacher.weebly.com/ (https://thefinnishteacher.weebly.com/)) which covers a wide range of subjects in a really concise way, and which I keep coming back to whenever I want to review some basics or make sense of more complex grammar.
Post by: Mirasol on March 26, 2021, 12:58:05 PM
Sadly I have so little time for studying Finnish right now, barely enough to revise what I already learnt so I don´t forget it. :(
Post by: Annuil on March 31, 2021, 09:55:03 AM
Post by: Foshadowfax on April 11, 2021, 12:34:18 PM
Post by: Raaffiie on April 11, 2021, 01:38:24 PM
Post by: Foshadowfax on April 12, 2021, 01:19:27 PM
Post by: Jitter on April 13, 2021, 01:31:19 AM
Post by: Raaffiie on April 13, 2021, 04:59:41 AM
Post by: Foshadowfax on April 13, 2021, 07:22:50 AM
If you guys want comments from a native speaker on your videos from time to time, you can PM me. I’m not a teacher or anything, but I can comment in English or Finnish if you think it’d be helpful.
Thanks!
Post by: ladykatytrent on December 08, 2021, 03:21:04 PM
I've had trouble finding places where people talk about learning Finnish, so it's great to find this community.
Hope everyone is doing well!
Post by: Jitter on December 08, 2021, 03:45:37 PM
I am a Finn and Finnish is my native language, I read a lot, and I can’t get around reading the Kalevala :) The language is just so old-fashioned and difficult, an I swear Mr Lönnrot made up some of the words to make the meter work! Actually I just recently acquired a book that is the Kalevala story written in prose and in (reasonably) contemporary Finnish. I should get to reading that. Anyways, I wanted to say your goal is very ambitious!
Reading the same book in both Finnish and English is a good idea! The Finnish translations of both Harry Potter and the Hobbit are high quality. You'll be learning some vocabulary that doesn’t necessarily have practical everyday use, but that is merely a bonus! :)
The language board has been a bit quiet lately, but let’s hope others will join in too!
Post by: Suominoita on December 10, 2021, 01:49:30 AM
Post by: JoB on December 10, 2021, 07:12:07 AM
Oh and I got Mauri Kunnas' dog-version for my sister's kids.... wait, what (http://www.minnasundberg.fi/comic/page215.php)? O_O
Post by: Suominoita on February 22, 2022, 08:58:03 AM
... wait, what (http://www.minnasundberg.fi/comic/page215.php)? O_O
So you're not familiar with Mauri Kunnas, a Finnish children's author? Koirien Kalevala is just one of the works.
Post by: Foshadowfax on April 28, 2022, 12:57:45 PM
I'm new to learning Finnish - I've been noodling around with it for about a year. I do at least one Duolingo lesson a day, as well as go through some flash cards. I've been reading Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone in Finnish (with an English copy nearby because I frequently get stuck). I have also started reading the Hobbit in Finnish because, wow is it beautiful and I've read the book more times than I can count. I am constantly looking words up and am definitely in the elementary levels but am having tons of fun! My ultimate goal is to read the gorgeous 1935 copy of the Kalevala (in Finnish) that I found in my favorite used book store. Last year, when I started teaching myself Finnish, I stumbled across SSSS.
I've had trouble finding places where people talk about learning Finnish, so it's great to find this community.
Hope everyone is doing well!
Hi I'm pretty new to studying finnish too. I've been learning on my own over the last 1-2 years using multiple sources, including Suomen Mestari.