Poll

What do you think the state of things is beyond Scandinavia?

More of the Silent World: Trolls, beasts and giants everywhere
7 (16.7%)
A few groups of humans, but mostly wilderness
14 (33.3%)
USA and other superpowers are relatively intact
0 (0%)
Scorched Earth: nothing, not even grosslings, is alive
0 (0%)
Plenty of places like Scandinavia, but isolated
21 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 38

Voting closed: July 03, 2015, 03:28:37 PM

Author Topic: Survivor communities outside the known world  (Read 230038 times)

Lovely

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #390 on: February 11, 2015, 10:39:27 AM »
We've been shown a selection of Nordic would-be survivors of the Rash in the prologue, their common trait was "OH GOD RUN AWAY AND HIIIIDE" (long before a common panic took on), as far as we know, there was not a single active soldier among them. Please explain how your military is superbly qualified for that.

Because for case of a Nordic countries it was the only way to survive. Nordic governments don't have the resources and time to counteract against the Rash. Nevertheless, people in Sweden and Finland literally live among Silent World in a sufficiently large populations and that fact can show itself what "Run and hide" isn't first and only way.

Military people in Russia as well as military people in USA or another countries Isn't better or worse then Nordic people or Nordic military. Russian military in European part of Russia are doomed like a Nordic Military in Nordic contries or European Military in Europe, because don't have a time to counteract the Rash. Nevertheless, Russian military in North and Siberian parts of Russia have a most important thing in the world - they have the Time. Several days or several weeks in different cases. Practically it's mean what if Moscow and St. Petersburg will be infected and perish, Russia still be have lots of towns and military bases where infected only one-two man or noone and in that towns people will be know what Rash is a: 100% deadly, have long hidden incubation period and turns people into monsters.

Do you seriously think that the Russian military in such conditions will show incredible incompetence and don't be thinking about quarantine measures? Or what Russian quarantine measures with be more less effective than Swedish quarantine measures 90 years later?

I think no, you don't think so. So, it's be mean what Russia will be have some survivors in a towns like Swedish people but on 90 years earlier then Swedish people. Also, Russia will be have more survivors, just because have more isolates areas then Nordic countries. And it's also mean what Russia be have main part technologies of the Old World for some time and biggest tecnogical base in towns of survivors.

Conclusion?

Russian are in a better position than Nordic people only because the features of geography and some features of the infrastructure as underground warehouses for nuclear war.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 10:53:41 AM by Lovely »

Koeshi

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #391 on: February 11, 2015, 12:01:59 PM »
I'd agree that eastern Russia would stand a much better chance due to isolation and therefore warning time.  I wouldn't however put too much faith in underground warehouses from the Cold War era.  For a start a lot of that stuff will have been looted long ago, and a lot more will have simply been lost to time, either perished or destroyed through lack of maintenance.  I've been down one of the isolated bunkers in the Moscow area.  The lower levels are flooded and the rest are falling apart, in some places the floor is practically quicksand and in others the steel walls have huge bulges in them from external water pressure.

Also while I agree that the Russian military is in general a very well trained force, there are an awful lot of conscripts that I would not trust to simply follow orders in an apocalypse scenario.

Lovely

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #392 on: February 11, 2015, 12:20:11 PM »
I wouldn't however put too much faith in underground warehouses from the Cold War era.  For a start a lot of that stuff will have been looted long ago, and a lot more will have simply been lost to time, either perished or destroyed through lack of maintenance.

I'm not sure about that. How I know that underground warehouses looks like here. And here is a list of a worked underground warehouses

We have 15 warehouses on Far East near Sakhalin and Kamchatka and 30 in Siberia and Nothern Siberia. Of course, it's possible what that warehouses is in a really poor conditions everywhere in contradiction with the information from the media but how I know the Federal Agency of State Reserves continually updating products in stock so - at least some from that warehouses should be in a good conditions.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 12:29:54 PM by Lovely »

Koeshi

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #393 on: February 11, 2015, 12:30:54 PM »
Ah, apologies.  I didn't realise you meant modern maintained warehouses.  I was under the impression that you expected to crack open a Cold War relic and expect the contents to still be in good shape.  Still as you mentioned I would take the official listings with a pinch of salt and assume that there is less in storage than is claimed.

Headfinder

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #394 on: February 11, 2015, 12:50:43 PM »
I was picturing just following behind the fire and getting any trolls that survive in holes in the ground. Sort of like a spear fishing/whack-a-mole approach :)

Trolls nest in groups, though, so instead of having to kill one, there might be three or four. Or more, many more, and none happy after their home was burned to the ground.

I don't believe cleansing would be required to get some wood, assuming the trolls tend to stay where they are. And I'm not saying people wouldn't have to adapt. The ability to move quietly and surprise the trolls would be essential. Humans have hunted with spears for centuries. Our ancestors were able to take down mammoths and all manners of creatures with spears. Spears also have an advantage over bladed weapons by being longer, giving you some space between you and the troll. Also, don't forget the awesome atlatl.

Yeah, I might be being a little harsh with the getting wood part. But there's always beasts and vermin, and there might be some lost troll wandering around. And we have Nokia and Tampere, cleansed by the swedes and now used for light forestry... which doesn't imply the finns didn't cut wood before by themselves before that, hm...

As for spears, they are effective: They pierce you and damage your vital organs, causing fatal injuries and great pain, and you being bigger translates into a reduced need to aim: No matter where you hit, you'll probably damage an organ, probably a vital one (assuming you go for the thorax, and not the limbs).

All this means nothing agains a troll though: The only organ they care about is the brain, and pain doesn't really stop them. You could stab it with spears until instead of a troll it's a giant hedgehog, and it won't die until you manage to hit the brain. You have to cut it's limbs (like in Dead Space, which Minna admits has been an influence to SSSS) so that it can't attack you while you get near enough to make a direct hit on it's head.

Lovely

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #395 on: February 11, 2015, 01:12:29 PM »
  Still as you mentioned I would take the official listings with a pinch of salt and assume that there is less in storage than is claimed.

It's better than nothing. I think that these underground warehouses will be only insurance in case of problems, because Russians will be have all resourse of Silent World.

The first few years before military equipment worn out, Russian military will be have a absolute power and mobility superiority over the Rash beasts. Helicopters, armored personnel carriers with 30-mm HE bullets, thermobaric weapon and availability of manpower allow Russians forget about silence during the evacuation of equipment and resources from infected towns, because every small groups of a beasts will be killed very fast. And tactical nuclear weapons can stop any massive attack of a Rash beasts. Military gas-masks and military equipment of chemical and biological protection also will be very useful. Backpack flamethrowers are extremely simple to produce. Navy and Air Force also can do a lot of work.

Theoretically, the Russian can get two safety zones - Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands. Kamchatka also can be protected, if Russians blow isthmus by a nuclear weapon. Although, it is possible to build a wall. That isthmus is only 50 km. Anyway, Russian get a chance to create new infrastructure in the few first years.

And I'm really intresting about USA - I'm sure what their military and US Navy don't disappear to nowhere.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 01:14:15 PM by Lovely »

BrainBlow

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #396 on: February 11, 2015, 01:40:54 PM »
Do you seriously think that the Russian military in such conditions will show incredible incompetence and don't be thinking about quarantine measures? Or what Russian quarantine measures with be more less effective than Swedish quarantine measures 90 years later?
Yes. We've seen the Russian military show blatant incompetence before. The military killed more civilians than the terrorists did in the Beslan school hostage crisis, where it actually went on Hollywood movie logic where gas just "knocks people out".
You also seem to be under the impression that the Russian military is some highly advanced, thoroughly funded and well-equipped force. It isn't. Even today Russia struggles to modernize its armed forces, and still relies on conscription to fill its basic military size because it simply cannot afford a standing army in the same way the US and China does.


I think no, you don't think so. So, it's be mean what Russia will be have some survivors in a towns like Swedish people but on 90 years earlier then Swedish people. Also, Russia will be have more survivors, just because have more isolates areas then Nordic countries. And it's also mean what Russia be have main part technologies of the Old World for some time and biggest tecnogical base in towns of survivors.
Being isolated isn't enough. You still need an actual foundation to live on, and the best farmland in Russia is not in the depths of Siberia.
Otherwise you just starve.
Not to mention that the infrastructure in Russia east of western-Russia is abysmal and literally has some of the worst roads in the entire world, especially in the season we know Year 0 starts, with fall and wet weather.

And once again, you're assuming the Russian military is magic somehow.
When did it start full-scale evacuation of people other than politicians? Under whose orders? Who makes the blueprints for the plans? Who actually goes out and declares Russia as a nation doomed and them somehow maintains public order? How much did they know? When did they start planning?
Sure, if the leaders of the military were psychic and at the very beginning of the plague's spread knew exactly what would happen, then they could maybe start doing the stuff you said.
But here's the final reality: Nobody would issue the orders required early enough. Nobody. By the time anyone with the required authority would actually think to do something like that, you would probably already have plague victims all the way in eastern-Russia, and the plague would already be so widespread in the general population that assembling a non-infected military force and then non-infected refugee flock would be impossible.
And then the notorious Siberian winter would roll in, and this mishmash refugee flock of yours would somehow keep themselves alive through it despite all central heating infrastructure ceasing to function. No gas through the pipelines, no refinery workers, no lumberjacks, no coal miners. No industrialized farms for the summer either. And you're suggesting millions of refugees?(and then that ridiculously large population would somehow never end up with a rash-rat sneaking in, ever. Makes sense.)
We're talking about the laws of thermodynamics here. You can't just spawn these things out of the ether.

And we're not even beginning to delve into the amount of Asian refugees there would be if governments actually acted as rashly(no pun intended) as you suggest they would.
If they actually would be as outlandishly reactionary as you assume they would be, there's no reason why nations like China wouldn't just force their way into Russia either. Hell, they're better positioned geographically, better mentally prepared culturally, and far better equipped militarily.
Of course, China would never do this, but in your world, there really isn't any reason they wouldn't.

It's better than nothing. I think that these underground warehouses will be only insurance in case of problems, because Russians will be have all resourse of Silent World.
You're suggesting that the military would somehow relocate millions of people as far as Kamchatka.
How would these warehouses in western-Russia somehow support them?

The first few years before military equipment worn out, Russian military will be have a absolute power and mobility superiority over the Rash beasts.
By what reasoning?


 
Helicopters,
Do you have any idea how much time and resources goes into maintaining flight crafts? And who would resupply these? From where? What ammunition? What gas?


manpower
Nonexistent and not immune.


allow Russians forget about silence during the evacuation of equipment and resources from infected towns,
Do you have any idea how huge Eastern-Russia is?
There is literally no way they could move over such a large area where you suggested their base would, and none of the towns they would encounter are nearly large enough.
And fun fact: Gasoline starts going bad after a month.

because every small groups of a beasts will be killed very fast. And tactical nuclear weapons can stop any massive attack of a Rash beasts. Military gas-masks and military equipment of chemical and biological protection also will be very useful. Backpack flamethrowers are extremely simple to produce. Navy and Air Force also can do a lot of work.
You're still talking magic here, dreaming about resources there's literally no physical way they could have in such numbers, nor maintain even if they have.
This isn't call of duty.

Theoretically, the Russian can get two safety zones - Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands. Kamchatka also can be protected
Again, geography. Literally nothing you're proposing here makes any sort of physical sense, even if the military could somehow spawn food, medicine, heating and sanitation from literal magic, there's still literally no way they could do what you're proposing.


Again, your entire proposal is magical wish thinking and unsustainable in every sense of the word.


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FinnishViking

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #397 on: February 11, 2015, 02:10:48 PM »
Now now guys let's try to keep it civil before we devolve to a "My country stronk" argument. Those ones always end poorly.

Fimbulvarg

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #398 on: February 11, 2015, 02:19:28 PM »
What FinnishViking said. 9/11 or the Beslan Massacre are not things one should throw around inconsiderately.

Lovely

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #399 on: February 11, 2015, 03:32:24 PM »
We've seen the Russian military show blatant incompetence before. The military killed more civilians than the terrorists did in the Beslan school hostage crisis


Really? Sounds very strange, because Russian military and incompetence is two opposite words. Probably you confuse the Russian military and Chechens terrorists in the Beslan so I will explain this misunderstanding specially for you. Terrorists were so blatant incompetence what accidentally detonate own bomb and shockedspetsnaz start unprepared assault of school. Fortunately, the terrorists couldn't detonate a second bomb, probably because they didn't knew how to make a bombs, nonetheless terrorists started shoot at children. Spetznaz acted very quickly and evacuate the children directly in combat. Often they had to sacrifice himself to save the kids from fragmentation grenades or ricochets. Unfortunately, they could not save everyone. Of course, some incompetent people started screaming that drunken Russian broke into the school and began to kill everybody, but I always thought that sounds so absurdly and no one would believe it.

I'm sure what now you see the difference between a heroically Russian soldiers and incompetence terrorists who can detonate own bomd only accidentally. I'm amazed, as you might think what it's a spetznaz start to assault a school with a kids. I hope you never make such a mistake again. Perhaps the reason for that sadly misconceptions from you is the language barrier only. If you want I can help you learn the Russian language, maybe I will help you to improve your knowledge about Russia.

If they actually would be as outlandishly reactionary as you assume they would be, there's no reason why nations like China wouldn't just force their way into Russia either. Hell, they're better positioned geographically, better mentally prepared culturally, and far better equipped militarily.


I think what I see here very sad example of poor level of knowledge not only about Russia, but also about the China. Of course, China have a third military in the world, but mainly because that military is a very-very big. Their weapons are replicas of Russian designs or they use imported Russian arms. Perhaps you are decided that it is Russia used Chinese weapons - so, it's a mistake.

Also, I show you a table with information the degree of mechanization of PLA. The percentage in the rightmost column gives you information about the number of transport from the required number. In practice, this means that only two army of PLA have 100% mechanization. Another armies should use a civilian cars or horses or own legs. USA and Russia fix that problem in... early 1950x. It's as far from better equipped militarily as it's only possible.

Again, your entire proposal is magical wish thinking and unsustainable in every sense of the word.


I'm so sorry, I don't answer the rest of your post because I already clarified and confirmed my idea. Maybe are you tired and missed some my posts? It looks so. I think what you should follow the discussion more closely. Also I hope that you understand me clear. English language isn't my native language and I learn the English only near six months so I try avoid the excessive wordiness, because I can make silly mistakes and you can understand me wrong.

I'm so sorry if it's happend. I'm sure you will certainly agree with me when I tell you my point of view correctly. Probably, you should ask the other members who may understand me better.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 03:51:07 PM by Lovely »

Rocketbobcat

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #400 on: February 11, 2015, 06:47:50 PM »
While arguments can be made for and against different countries surviving or doing well, I think that there would be some isolated areas of survival in almost every country that has areas with a low population density,whether its Russia, Sweden, the U.S., Argentina, or even Sudan. While some of these places have less infrastructure, making maintaining a society harder, there are farming communities that might still be able to hold out.

Some of the countries besides those in Scandinavia that I think would have the highest chance of creating areas of survival would be:
  • Canada
  • Russia
  • Kazakhstan
  • Australia
  • Mid-West region of the U.S.

Though there are arguments for and against settlements appearing in these countries, I think they all have much higher chances than most Western, Central and even Eastern European countries, and more than many other Asian, South American and African countries as well.

Also, I think we can all agree that countries like the Netherlands and Belgium, small but with high population density, would be wiped out in an apocalypse like this.

Oskutin

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #401 on: February 11, 2015, 08:07:43 PM »
As Minna took very hard setting for SSSS, I doubt that Russia would have millions of living inhabitants.
But as I already said, there may be systems of 10-20K population in large Siberian rivers.
And I said long time ago that population propably kept decreasing rapidly for more than 50 years since year 0...
Bunkers and emergency storages only gives few years extra...

Even Iceland did lose a lot of population for starvation (especially when they ran out of fuel and fishing fleets where stuck in harbors and agricultural production fell due lack of fertilizers.)

I could also compare how well 'prepared' Scandinavian nations were...

Norway has thousands of islands with fishing communities in them. How many of them survived until year 90?
Even mountains and villages only accessable via tunnels didn't help them much...

Swedish and Finnish coast are also littered by tiny isles with semi-isolated communities...
Plus Finland has tons of lakes and islands in them...

And more about Finland:
Every apartment building here is has small blast/fallout shelter with supplies in them.
(Norway seems to also have shelters everyehere)
And cities have massive public shelters everywhere with more supplies.

And Finland also has well equiped and trained army...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_defense_in_Finland

And still got only like 15K people left at year 90...



And the reasons that Scandinavian countries manage to upkeep even that population and level of technology is that they're connected.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 09:01:26 PM by Oskutin »

JoB

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #402 on: February 11, 2015, 08:17:37 PM »
Russian military and incompetence is two opposite words.
Care to remind me which other militaries in the world saw fit to dump entire nuclear reactor sections into the seas adjacent to their own coasts? Or how reunification with East Germany caused our rate of illegal firearms to rise threefold? Or why the Nedelin disaster killed so many personnel who had no business being on the launch site next to a fueled experimental missile in the first place?

(Before anyone accuses me of targeting only the Russian military, let me mention use of the Ames strain in Amerithrax, various NORAD mishaps, and letting storage containers with nerve agents rot to the point of not being able to transport them to the disposal facilities anymore, too.)
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Richard Weir

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #403 on: February 11, 2015, 08:48:55 PM »
And the least said about British Military stupidity, the better. We've had some very, very bad examples, like the aircraft carrier with no aircraft to fly, scrapping our VTOL aircraft before the Americans had fixed their replacement fighters, spending many millions a year repairing worn-out helicopters that would have been cheaper to replace, sending soldiers into a desert war with arctic equipment (boots melted - how's that for military competence!) etc etc.

Let's face it - military idiocy is an almost universal constant.
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Koeshi

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #404 on: February 12, 2015, 05:24:22 AM »
Those mistakes for the British military largely come from the government.  Unfortunately the British military does not have anything in the realm of sufficient funding to decide to just build a huge aircraft carrier like that.  It was a government decision that much of the military considered a waste of time and resources.