Author Topic: I would have wiSSSShed... what is missing from SSSS?  (Read 15495 times)

Róisín

  • Traveller on the Bird's Path
  • Elder of the Ruined Realm
  • ********
  • Posts: 8636
Re: I would have wiSSSShed... what is missing from SSSS?
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2021, 04:52:11 PM »
And Iceland already has an amazing array of plants grown so. The bananas are an interesting one!
Avatar is courtesy of the amazing Haiz!

thorny

  • Ruler of a Derelict Airport
  • *****
  • Preferred pronouns: either female or gender-neutral
  • Posts: 2278
Re: I would have wiSSSShed... what is missing from SSSS?
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2021, 05:27:54 PM »
If you're trying both to heat and to light a greenhouse, as you would be in winter, that "waste" heat from incandescents isn't waste at all. Drop them low enough to your plants (which is where you want them anyway), put reflective material behind them to reflect both heat and light; the bulbs will help keep the plants warm, and reduce your need for other heat (though I wouldn't expect them to eliminate it.)

JoB

  • Mage of the Great Restructuring
  • Admiral of a Sunken Ship
  • ******
  • Posts: 4100
Re: I would have wiSSSShed... what is missing from SSSS?
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2021, 07:24:36 PM »
They might have gotten seeds from the Svalbard Global Seed Vault, though.
Word of God is that the post-Rash people have not yet seen a reason to pop it open, though.

I’m inclined to think the same as Tehta, I don’t think Minna has decided what the Rash really is in full detail.
Same for the amazingly-advanced batteries, other aspects of the technology used, the possibility of survivors elsewhere, yadda yadda. Minna is not the kind of author to do extensive worldbuilding beyond the aspects that she plans to eventually show in canon, anyway. (Which is why I'm hard pressed to nominate anything in this thread; most of what I would like to see in more detail was already bound to remain shrouded in mystery before Minnas interests shifted away from SSSS.)
native: :de: secondary: :us: :fr:
:artd: :book1+: :book2: :book3: :book4: etc.
PGP Key 0xBEF02A15, Fingerprint C12C 53DC BB92 2FE5 9725  C1AE 5E0F F1AF BEF0 2A15

thorny

  • Ruler of a Derelict Airport
  • *****
  • Preferred pronouns: either female or gender-neutral
  • Posts: 2278
Re: I would have wiSSSShed... what is missing from SSSS?
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2021, 01:47:49 PM »

Same for the amazingly-advanced batteries, other aspects of the technology used, the possibility of survivors elsewhere, yadda yadda. Minna is not the kind of author to do extensive worldbuilding beyond the aspects that she plans to eventually show in canon, anyway.

Agreeing with this. Sure, I'd like to know what the Rash actually is, how it got started, how it works, why it affects different types of trolls so differently -- but I don't think Minna has any idea, either. I think she worked out just enough of it to make the particular stories she wanted; and if bits of some of those stories seem to contradict the others, she just ignores that and moves on.

And I don't think she has any clear idea how they're growing what they're growing, either. (I really would like an explanation as to fruit juice, in general, being so expensive, as per the first chapter. By year 90, apple cider sweet and hard, as well as perry in both versions, should be readily available; no greenhouses needed. Or does Minna just not think of those as "fruit juice"?) To work that out she'd have to know or learn a great deal about farming. And I don't think her mind works that way: I want explanations, but I don't think she cares about them.

ETA: Stories about the characters -- those I think she cares about, or did.

tehta

  • Ranger
  • ****
  • Preferred pronouns: She/her, they/their
  • Posts: 854
Re: I would have wiSSSShed... what is missing from SSSS?
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2021, 02:05:09 PM »
On the 'fruit juice is expensive' thing: that could be referring to 'fruit juice in restaurants'? Even in our world, drinks often have a substantial markup there, and money-conscious people are very aware of this, and consider the markup to be 'money down the drain' or a 'this is how they get you'. (Source: I know a lot of very cheap people.)
fluent: :pl: :us:, conversational: :fr: :de:, can spy on conversations: :de: (:ch:) :it:, knows curses: so many others

Maple

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 36
Re: I would have wiSSSShed... what is missing from SSSS?
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2021, 08:03:17 PM »
I think the detail I've been missing the most is the character interactions in Adventure 2. Most of Adventure 2 felt like the characters were just set pieces to move the story along without actually adding anything of substance to it. It didn't feel like characters were doing things because that is what they would decide to do, it felt like Minna said "I need someone to do X" and then just picked someone to do it. Adventure 1 was much better about this, and the story of Adventure 1 was much more solid because of it. In addition, certain characters (Sigrun, Mikkel, and Emil, who are both not Hotakainens and lack magic of their own) got basically no development in this adventure. Sure, this adventure was all about the Hotakainens, but there's still room for other characters to show growth too!

I think part of the reason why Adventure 2 is 400 pages-ish shorter than Adventure 1 is because of the problem of "not showing the characters being characters". It really feels like Minna has been rushing through to finish the story.

I'm also a little disappointed in the lack of closure regarding Emil and Lalli's relationship. Sure, I ship them and would have loved for them to become a couple, but even their friendship was left hanging throughout most of Adventure 2 (because of aforementioned character voice problems). Emil and Lalli are supposedly sharing dreams now and that hasn't been explored at all (outside of one memory meant to show Lalli's Tragic Bakstory, which ALSO felt rushed because I refuse to believe that Lalli would be so blase about showing his entire past to Emil and Reynir when barely 3 months ago he refused to tell Emil ANYTHING about his past). Even if Minna wrote them as just being friends, having SOMETHING would have been nice.

So I think "disappointment over Adventure 2 being not as great as Adventure 1" is the main feeling I have here. It felt like it was missing that spark that made Adventure 1 so great.

Róisín

  • Traveller on the Bird's Path
  • Elder of the Ruined Realm
  • ********
  • Posts: 8636
Re: I would have wiSSSShed... what is missing from SSSS?
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2021, 11:35:17 PM »
Maple, you make very good points! Fortunately, those omissions leave lots of room for the fanfic writers to play!

And thorny, I think the types of juices served in a fancy restaurant in the Minnaverse might by definition be expected to be something fancy and exotic, such as citrus fruit juices from the greenhouses of Iceland, rather than the cider and perry which people might think of as what you drank at home or back on the farm. On the farms I grew up on, my gran used to make both hard and soft cider and perry for the household, but on the farm in Ireland before we came to Australia an orange was a once or twice a year treat for the kids. I remember being given a big Spanish Navel orange with the top carefully cut off so I could scoop out the contents with a spoon, leaving the rind for my gran to candy or save for flavouring something. And this wasn’t even post-apoc, just in our world in the 1940s. In places like California in America, or in South Australia where I live now, we take an ample supply of citrus fruits and juices for granted, but this has never been universal and certainly wouldn’t be in the Minnaverse!
Avatar is courtesy of the amazing Haiz!

tehta

  • Ranger
  • ****
  • Preferred pronouns: She/her, they/their
  • Posts: 854
Re: I would have wiSSSShed... what is missing from SSSS?
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2021, 03:54:31 AM »
When I was a small child in Poland, oranges were also very rare. People slightly older then me remember them as a special Christmas treat. (With the rinds being immediately whisked away for candying. I actually candied a bunch of rind last Christmas out of nostalgia. (And covid-related excess of time. I also made 250 pierogi.)

I don't think Adventure Two started out all that barren in terms of character growth. Iceland is Adventure Two. But all the little character-defining moments got rarer and rarer over time, both the ones where character drives the plot, and the background details that I am sure we all used to love.

Incidentally, I can accept Lalli letting the others (or at least Emil) stay in his dream. Yes, he growled at Emil's personal questions, but a day later he was telling him about snakes and blueberries. He had a reason, of course, but still, there's precedent. Also, I have the feeling that the dream took him back to his young pre-PTSD self a little. (Not a psychiatrist, but... all the Hotakainens read as shellshocked to me.) What I can't get past is the Lehto reunion. In Adventure One, we have Reynir crying in the cab of the cat-tank, Lalli pounding a tree with his fists for hours, Sigrun having an identity crisis... and in Adventure we have a stupid joke about ghosts.

So one thing I would like is to see before the end is some proper scenes with Tuuri, for just about everyone. But I don't think I will. Ugh.
Maybe one day I will write a Lehto fic where I explore this, but I don't know if I am the right person.
fluent: :pl: :us:, conversational: :fr: :de:, can spy on conversations: :de: (:ch:) :it:, knows curses: so many others

Vulpes

  • Ranger
  • ****
  • Multa novit vulpes
  • Preferred pronouns: Anything used with affection or respect
  • Posts: 783
Re: I would have wiSSSShed... what is missing from SSSS?
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2021, 08:24:59 PM »
Sigrun had the most unexplored potential - her upbringing must have included so much danger and violence, and yet her character development started sliding in Adv. 1 already. Her last piece of genuine development was her angst when she was ill.  I don't really get a charge out of her supposed drifting toward a hookup with Mikkel, which I guess was the whole point of her even being on Adv. 2.  She was introduced as a zesty character with a taste for Bold Adventure, but she & Mikkel have skipped straight to the companionable cuppa together stage. She had more frisson with Reynir playing Rock, Paper, Scissors, Sheep, Gun. Bah. 

I agree with much of what you said, but wanted to hone in on this. I'm pretty good at shrugging and saying to myself, "Ah well, it's the creator's choice to..." do whatever it is that I'm not 100% happy with and keep enjoying the rest of the story, but this has been bugging me. Well, it was bugging me until we got sidetracked into endless bear-chasing, but that's another grumble.

One of the things that first caught my attention in this comic was a strong female character, wearing sensible clothes. Two of them, in fact! Then one died. Okay, fine - it's the creator's choice blah blah... but now we're down to one strong female character, who proceeds to fall to pieces and have to be propped up by a male character. Ooookay... she's had a traumatic experience, and she's fighting an infection, that makes sense. She'll go back to normal once she's better, right? Nope. She starts acting all lovely-dovey towards Mikkel. Now don't get me wrong, that's fine, but their whole dynamic changed - the entire team did. Again, I can chalk it up to the new situation but it really, really started to feel like Mum and Dad on a little road trip with the kids. It just seemed wrong that Sigrun would just sit back and let Mikkel take charge. Aside from Operation Bear Pit, she's just been along for the ride, it seems. And yes, that's sort of how it was set up... but I have a hard time believing that someone as brash and confident as Sigrun was originally portrayed would just fade into the background.

There have been enough little flashes of "old Sigrun" to keep me going, plus generally wanting to know how this story arc plays out, but I really miss her original character. As several have mentioned, all of the character development seems to have stalled, especially during the protracted bear chase, so I really hope as this arc wraps up we get to see more of the genuine, believable interactions that made Adventure I such fun.
Native: :ca:   Mostly gone: :fr:   A smattering: :de:   Learning!! :fi:

Róisín

  • Traveller on the Bird's Path
  • Elder of the Ruined Realm
  • ********
  • Posts: 8636
Re: I would have wiSSSShed... what is missing from SSSS?
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2021, 08:32:02 PM »
Yes, that was something I miss. But I think somebody undergoing the sort of ‘religious epiphany’ Minna had might find it difficult to sustain the concept of a strong female character. Consider such ‘character’ or lack of it as the bunnies show.
Avatar is courtesy of the amazing Haiz!

catbirds

  • Guest
Re: I would have wiSSSShed... what is missing from SSSS?
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2021, 10:52:09 PM »
Vulpes, I also miss the old Sigrun a lot. Technically characters who undergo development should change and I guess her character arc did involve something of thinking she had to always be on top of everything, but also the way that led almost directly to romance was really disappointing :( Female characters should have the opportunity to learn about themselves without it leading them directly into being a love interest.

I'm not sure of any connection to her religious epiphany, but I'd always thought that a female writer might've been more interested in writing female characters with more nuance regardless of faith. Out of a desire to see women like themselves better written and all. I liked how most of the female characters in aRTD were written, despite their only brief appearances in the story.

thorny

  • Ruler of a Derelict Airport
  • *****
  • Preferred pronouns: either female or gender-neutral
  • Posts: 2278
Re: I would have wiSSSShed... what is missing from SSSS?
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2021, 10:06:58 AM »
One of the things that first caught my attention in this comic was a strong female character, wearing sensible clothes. Two of them, in fact! Then one died. Okay, fine - it's the creator's choice blah blah... but now we're down to one strong female character, who proceeds to fall to pieces and have to be propped up by a male character. Ooookay... she's had a traumatic experience, and she's fighting an infection, that makes sense. She'll go back to normal once she's better, right? Nope. She starts acting all lovely-dovey towards Mikkel. Now don't get me wrong, that's fine, but their whole dynamic changed - the entire team did. Again, I can chalk it up to the new situation but it really, really started to feel like Mum and Dad on a little road trip with the kids.

Yes; I think I said in one of the other threads that much of what attracted me was the depiction of a mixed-gender group living and working together with everyone apparently taking this for granted, and nobody apparently finding it necessary for them to be paired off: in part because much of my own life has been like that, but it's so rarely depicted in comics. Pairing off and sex do happen, but they're not assumed to be an essential part of the situation, and don't always happen.

And that's what we got in the first adventure. The second had the disadvantage of being down to one living woman, and I didn't mind that she happened to pair off in itself -- but I did mind that the group dynamic did seem, as you say, to change into a mated pair in charge of young folk. And then when we got informed of the religious conversion, I wondered whether that wasn't where that change had come from.

tehta

  • Ranger
  • ****
  • Preferred pronouns: She/her, they/their
  • Posts: 854
Re: I would have wiSSSShed... what is missing from SSSS?
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2021, 10:53:12 AM »
Oh wow, I haven't even thought about Sigrun turning into a loving semi-passive girlfriend (I have been thinking of Sigrun/Mikkel as about as canonical as Emil/Lalli, sooo...) but now I am becoming semi-annoyed about it too.
fluent: :pl: :us:, conversational: :fr: :de:, can spy on conversations: :de: (:ch:) :it:, knows curses: so many others

lwise

  • Scout
  • ***
  • Posts: 352
Re: I would have wiSSSShed... what is missing from SSSS?
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2021, 02:59:20 PM »
Oh wow, I haven't even thought about Sigrun turning into a loving semi-passive girlfriend (I have been thinking of Sigrun/Mikkel as about as canonical as Emil/Lalli, sooo...) but now I am becoming semi-annoyed about it too.

I don't really get a "semi-passive girlfriend" vibe at all off of Sigrun in this adventure.

Spoiler: recap as I see it • show
Mikkel arranges their passage because he speaks Icelandic, unlike everyone else but Reynir, and he has money from the expedition, unlike Reynir.

Once they get to Finland, Sigrun overrules Mikkel when he wants to stay in the port and leave in the morning.

Sigrun and Mikkel both talk to the Gull-mage; he talks to Mikkel about Surma, but not Sigrun, which appears logical since Mikkel has a shotgun and Sigrun doesn't.

Sigrun decides where they'll camp the first night.

Sigrun has the plan for the cartroll and orders Mikkel to assist.

Sigrun shoots at the tanktroll without waiting for Mikkel's input.

Although Emil has the plan for defeating the tanktroll, Sigrun takes charge of distracting it while Mikkel hangs back with Reynir.

Mikkel does assert himself when Sigrun wants to go back for gear, and she agrees not to; we learn later that she just doesn't believe in Surma even if Mikkel does.

Sigrun decides that they will raid the warehouse with the acid trolls, and tells Mikkel to get what they need, which is logical because he's the strongest and most practical.

Mikkel does resolve the impasse between Emil and Sigrun as to who stays with Reynir.

Sigrun is standing guard alone when the lake cows pass the camp.

Sigrun takes the lead in dealing with the poodle-beast, telling Mikkel to be her backup.

After Mikkel shoots the poodle-beast, he insists that they run and she agrees.

Sigrun issues orders when they encounter the wolf-beasts; her plan would have worked but for a falling pebble.

After Lalli gets the team into a tree, Sigrun orders the attack so they can escape.

When the lake cows start eating the wolf-beasts, Sigrun orders retreat.

Sigrun decides they'll go into the Joensuu city center.

Sigrun naturally wants to tie up Onni and take him home; Mikkel counsels talking first.

Mikkel does all the talking with Onni, because Mikkel speaks Icelandic and Sigrun doesn't.

Sigrun plans Operation Bear Hole.  It doesn't work, but then neither does anything else.

When Sigrun and Mikkel are redirecting the naked mole rat, Sigrun is in command.  It's a small thing, but notice that when they hide from the bears, Sigrun places herself in the more dangerous position.

Sigrun proposes luring the bears over a cliff and Mikkel calls that Plan B.

Onni proposes tying up the naked mole rat; Mikkel assigns everyone their positions, then assists Onni.

When they have to run from the Mother of Bears and Surma, Sigrun leads the way and finds (what appears to be) shelter.

Sigrun has a plan to fight from the roof.

Sigrun tries to keep the team together, calling for the mages to follow, then ordering the others to chase the mages, before the Mother of Bears gets between them.

Mikkel yanks the door open so they can dodge the blob-blob troll, and orders everyone to take cover.

After the floor collapses and Surma arrives, no one can do anything until the second collapse, when Sigrun non-verbally orders retreat.

And finally, the last we see of them until next chapter, Sigrun says, "this is our chance to find the others and get out of here!"


In short, Mikkel does occasionally issue orders in this adventure, but Sigrun does the great bulk of leading the team.  She's not passive and she doesn't look to him for permission.   She may have come on this expedition because she wants to stay with Mikkel; it is equally possible that she came because she believes the team needs her protection since she's a troll-hunter and none of the others are.

tehta

  • Ranger
  • ****
  • Preferred pronouns: She/her, they/their
  • Posts: 854
Re: I would have wiSSSShed... what is missing from SSSS?
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2021, 03:36:38 PM »
I can sort of see it both ways. I see that Sigrun makes more of the 'combat' decisions, and Mikkel -- the bigger-picture strategic decisions. Which makes sense, given their skill-sets, but it gives me the feeling that a lot of the adventure is the Onni-and-Mikkel show. Also, she does claim to be confused as to why they are even following Lalli, at first (even as she goes along with it). Of course, she might not be that serious about her question.
fluent: :pl: :us:, conversational: :fr: :de:, can spy on conversations: :de: (:ch:) :it:, knows curses: so many others