I for one, just really hope Onni doesn't get killed off or something. Please no, Minna, I'd cry forever. But I can also see that possibility just sittin' there, waiting to jump out and break all our hearts.
I for one, just really hope Onni doesn't get killed off or something. Please no, Minna, I'd cry forever.It won't happen right now, at least. Minna announced that Onni would find a way to contact the expedition and make himself into a plot-important secondary character.
He does seem to have the 'ward and protect' instinct strongly developed, doesn't he? If the Hotakainen backstory is as dark as it seems likely to be, I can quite see why.
Well, we have some more backstory on him - seems his mage grandmother (and grandmother of Lalli and Tuuri) made one mistake that was apparently what drove them from their home.Oooh yes this makes sense. He probably also expects a lot from himself since he's had to raise these two kids, and he knows that he has to do well in that regard... like, him messing up could have really bad consequences for him, because they're his responsibility now.
Since Onni seems to expect perfection in decision-making from mages, I'm wondering if part of his whole "not going outside" thing isn't just fear but that perfectionism crippling him. Since he feels he can't make a mistake he refuses to stick his neck out in any situation where he could possibly make mistakes, and so he's paralyzed in many ways as many perfectionists can be. Hence why he's spent 11 years doing safe defensive invocations while hiding in a fort.
Also, I wonder if when Onni says, 'We aren't allowed to make mistakes,' assuming by 'we' he means the Hotakainen family, that even then there is something specifically out to get Onni, Lalli and maybe Tuuri too. I wonder if this is the reason that Onni is particularly afraid of the outside world.I sort of thought that he was referring to the surviving humans in the world, or maybe those of the mage profession?
I'm not saying it's perfectionism -> fear, but that they feed off each other. The fear leads to perfectionism, which leads to more fear, which leads to more perfectionism, and because he can't deal with one without dealing with the other he can't get anywhere and is stuck inside a small walled compound for the rest of his life.
...... she is either dead or retired - or retired and died.
the grandma is/would be 90 years old. if Trond is retired over 60, she must be retired. I still believe she is alive, because people can even live for 90 years too, but anyone else in the prologue could be already deadIt's pretty obvious that Lalli's grandmother is the yet-unborn-child of the pregnant Lady (Aino?) from the prologue. She looked pretty far along but they didn't mention anything about her due date which makes me think it's still some months away, otherwise she'd be concerned about having to deliver the baby on the boat. Which would make her about 90 years old, if she was indeed still alive.for long, because all would be live over 100, which is even rare today to live over 100 years. 90 is already a lot but I have relatives over 90 too (my grandpa's older sisters) so why not? and if they get a safe place to live at, they are going to be okay to live long I guess. and depends on lifestyle.
I believe she is still alive..... I just hope at least hersorry for these comment here
It's pretty obvious that Lalli's grandmother is the yet-unborn-child of the pregnant Lady (Aino?) from the prologue. She looked pretty far along but they didn't mention anything about her due date which makes me think it's still some months away, otherwise she'd be concerned about having to deliver the baby on the boat. Which would make her about 90 years old, if she was indeed still alive.
Out of the blue because I don't handle the timeline myself that well and therefore can't contribute:
I just noticed that Onni has the same ornament on the front his cape as Lalli has in the dreamrealm. Not sure if that is worthy of any speculation about what's going between them, but it is rather peculiar since the detail in that round ornament is so specific. Can't remember that I'd seen it anywhere else at least!
http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=389 Onni wears it,
http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=207 Lalli wears it.
I have a nagging feeling that such details are not just coincidences. Humm...
Presuming that what Lalli has on his cape thing is a cat (idk it kind of looks like a fox to me), then it seems that mages have their kind of spirit animal plastered on their back - probably as identification or some kind of talisman.
Simple speculation on Onni - his luonto is going to be a bird, either some kind of hawk or an owl.
http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=390 (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=390)
Presuming that what Lalli has on his cape thing is a cat (idk it kind of looks like a fox to me), then it seems that mages have their kind of spirit animal plastered on their back - probably as identification or some kind of talisman.
You may well be right about Onni's luonto, but I think what Minna drew on p. 390 showed their departmental symbols: owls for night scouts on Lalli, eagles (like Kokko) for mages -- not their personal totems.
Onni is unsurprisingly good with children. The changelings were politely coloring while he read a book. It's so hard to get kids to be calm long enough to enjoy a book, unless you're ignoring them and they're running amok.
Also, Onni's luonto is an owl, and he's super cool and powerful.
Thread restarted.
Well, it is implied that he's the one who raised Tuuri and Lalli after whatever it was that happened to their parents. He has lots of experience with children, if nothing else.
Hence the unsurprisingly. I was stating the obvious in the interest of reviving the thread.
On page 76, Tuuri cries to Onni, "Onni, please come with us! I don't want you to be all alone!"
When Onni forces himself onto the boat on page 451, there is no one to see him off or provide moral support.
Onni is a twenty-seven-year-old, extremely powerful mage who is presumably a valued defender of a beleaguered outpost. Why is he all alone? Why doesn't he have a significant other or even a best friend?
For that matter, Lalli is a nineteen-year-old immune mage, a night scout which has to be a respected occupation. Aren't there any young women who really want to have his babies? I would think with the threat they're under, young women would be willing to put up with a lot of eccentricities if they could guarantee their children wouldn't turn into trolls.
It seems to me that their grandmother's one mistake must have been so terrible that her surviving descendants, especially the mages, are practically pariahs. Whatever happened was so terrible that they weren't safe anymore in Saimaa so Onni took the children and fled to Keuruu. Even there, the story followed them and no one wanted anything to do with them.
Onni took the brunt of this because he was eldest, and possible because he was a teen-age mage when it happened and either failed to prevent it or possibly even made it worse in his desperate efforts to stop it. He was able to make a place for the three of them because he is such a powerful mage that an outpost under constant threat couldn't afford to turn him away. But they are there on sufferance, and he knows it. That's why, on page 390, he tells Lalli that "We're not allowed to make make mistakes, not under any circumstances." If they are driven out of Keuruu too, where will they go?
Tuuri, being an extrovert and non-mage, was shunned at first but less so than Onni, so she managed to make friends over the years -- maybe not close friends, but friends.
Lalli, who was only seven or eight when they arrived at Keuruu, and who was an introvert anyway, was shunned from the start and never managed to break out of it. He became a night scout as soon as he was old enough because that way he didn't have to interact with anyone except, occasionally, his cousins.
Tuuri's decision to drag Lalli along when she decided to get out of the stultifying and hostile environment of Keuruu was actually an attempt, however clumsy, to help him by putting him in an environment where he would be better accepted.
My thinking on that is that Onni is the one who would have avoided getting invested in any sort of relationship - for one thing, it's heavily implied that those three are the only surviving members of their immediate family, so he would have come to Keuruu with two young kids to look after, this at the age of around sixteen. That sort of puts a crimp in starting any sort of romantic relationship, or even just hanging out with friends outside of work. Not saying it can't be done, but Onni is certainly not an extrovert, and he strikes me as being exactly the type who'd be all self-sacrificing for the sake of something that he now sees as his sole responsibility. I bet that young!Onni, if even asked out for a drink, would keep saying "No, I've got to look after the kids," until people finally stopped asking - even after the kids were old enough to look after themselves.
For another thing, given whatever happened to the rest of their family (and presumably any friends that they'd had back in Saimaa), he'd go out of his way to avoid getting overly attached to anyone new. He has his family, he's going to look after his family, and he'd keep telling himself that they're all that he needs. They're on a military base, the unexpected can happen at any time, and getting too close to people only leads to heartache - which I imagine is why so much of his emotional attachment is invested in his sister, and he's invested so much time in making sure that she stays somewhere safe.
When Tuuri asks Taru whether Swedes really have only four toes, she mentions, this information came from Onni, who heard it from one of his mage friends. This implies he does have some friends after all.
But I agree that he feels his priority should be looking after the "kids", even though they became adults by now.
On page 76, Tuuri cries to Onni, "Onni, please come with us! I don't want you to be all alone!"
When Onni forces himself onto the boat on page 451, there is no one to see him off or provide moral support.
Onni is a twenty-seven-year-old, extremely powerful mage who is presumably a valued defender of a beleaguered outpost. Why is he all alone? Why doesn't he have a significant other or even a best friend?
For that matter, Lalli is a nineteen-year-old immune mage, a night scout which has to be a respected occupation. Aren't there any young women who really want to have his babies? I would think with the threat they're under, young women would be willing to put up with a lot of eccentricities if they could guarantee their children wouldn't turn into trolls.
It seems to me that their grandmother's one mistake must have been so terrible that her surviving descendants, especially the mages, are practically pariahs. Whatever happened was so terrible that they weren't safe anymore in Saimaa so Onni took the children and fled to Keuruu. Even there, the story followed them and no one wanted anything to do with them.
Onni took the brunt of this because he was eldest, and possible because he was a teen-age mage when it happened and either failed to prevent it or possibly even made it worse in his desperate efforts to stop it. He was able to make a place for the three of them because he is such a powerful mage that an outpost under constant threat couldn't afford to turn him away. But they are there on sufferance, and he knows it. That's why, on page 390, he tells Lalli that "We're not allowed to make make mistakes, not under any circumstances." If they are driven out of Keuruu too, where will they go?
Tuuri, being an extrovert and non-mage, was shunned at first but less so than Onni, so she managed to make friends over the years -- maybe not close friends, but friends.
Lalli, who was only seven or eight when they arrived at Keuruu, and who was an introvert anyway, was shunned from the start and never managed to break out of it. He became a night scout as soon as he was old enough because that way he didn't have to interact with anyone except, occasionally, his cousins.
Tuuri's decision to drag Lalli along when she decided to get out of the stultifying and hostile environment of Keuruu was actually an attempt, however clumsy, to help him by putting him in an environment where he would be better accepted.
It's a lot more inexplicable that Sigrun - daughter of two generals, high ranking herself, in a town where people feast in common, to not have any husband - nor does Mikkel have any excuse, being heir to property and being a great housekeeper (though he probably wants to avoid from going from putting diapers on younger siblings to putting diaper on his own children too quickly). Compared to them, Onni has a solid alibi, compounded by what is probably a cautious, suspicious, and introverted nature that is very slow to trust or open itself.
Mysteriously all our protagonists are bachelors.
Yes I am assuming that in the context of a post-apocalyptic scenario where I presume the rebuilding of the human race is a major priority and that marriage and reproduction are encouraged if not enforced and where personal aspiration would probably take a backseat to communal interests. I am with you, though, in saying that all these characters, from the perspective of personality, have no particular reason to be in relationships or have started families. This, beyond the Dagrenning program, is a dimension that has not been given a lot of exploration - but they must be doing something to prevent human populations to further unravel since, considering what we have seen so far, we must presume that even though humans have attained a sort of stabilization, that there is still some heavy attrition from trolls and the plague, without considering nutrition, common sickness (only Sweden and Iceland, and perhaps Denmark seem to have levels capable of sustaining modern medicine), and things as banal as infant mortality.
And yes. I could. I presume, in fact, that a lot of people with families (we have to presume that military personnel have families) engage in missions that are just as dangerous - if not outwardly as foolhardy as an incursion on the mainland. I bet poorly funded, shady, and poorly organized probably sums up half of norwegian military maneuvers.
Hedge: grandma is/was Aino's unborn child, it's been confirmed. :)
Okay so I intended to just stay lurking around the corners of this forum and never actually say anything much but AAAAAAAA ONNI!!!
<snip>
So as you can see I'm 110% feels 0% sense when it comes to Onni but what can you do? In conclusion Onni is perfect little piece of awesome grumpiness and I hope he can get his stuff sorted out and has the chance to meet his remaining family again. ;;A;
Spoiler: Onni analysis about recent events • show
Thread necromancy is welcome when there is new analysis or discussion to be presented, as you have done. (Also, all those Onni screenshots!) Just wait until you (save up some time to) have a look at the SSSS Art Museum thread - there are some gems in there along the way.
But - one comment -
I think Tuuri and Lalli were very well aware of Onni's angst over the situation, hence the in-jokes about Onni crying. Lalli was being a bit of a jerk about it, but Tuuri knew exactly what he meant. I got the feeling this wasn't their first exchange on the topic.
Spoiler: this is more about lalli than onni • show
Good images. I like Onni. He is such a classic big brother/cousin. And yeah, I do agree that being who he is, Onni would be perfectly willing to spend both his life and his magic if it would ensure Lalli’s safety.
In one sense he, Tuuri and Lalli are very common personalities that you can see in older Finnish literature. I don't know how deliberate this was from Minna's part to make them like that, but I would like to think there was this kind of thought behind.
In that moment of loss and maybe for a few years before becoming teens though, they weren't really aware and that was enough for Onni to isolate himself. I also think now later on that it is just part of his personality not to open up to anyone, even when everyone else can see what is going on (Trond's "Don't start crying!" is a great example).
I love your analysis Temteno! I have thought along the same lines as you have.
I'm a huge Onni fan myself and it's super great to see others finding this character as interesting and complex as I do. When I first began to read SSSS there were not too many Onni fans and the general read fandom had on him was very flat, mostly due to us not knowing so much about him. I was nearly ecstatic when the second adventure had him in such a major role!
It may be a finnish thing to draw these conclusions you and me both have made. It never really occurred to me before but I see where you are coming from, our cultural heritage might make him more appealing to finnish readers. Now that I think about it, he reminds me a bit of Koskela from Tuntematon sotilas or maybe Aapo from Seitsemän veljestä. (Lalli being Lauri in this case.)
From what we can understand from the comic, Onni either chose or had to take care of Tuuri and Lalli since, work for their living and in a sense build a place for them to live. "Onni knows what to do" is such a lie from granny Hotakainen. I bet he didn't have a single idea about how to manage this situation, and still it is evident he somehow did it.
So yes, he is not handling everything ideally, like how he didn't really understand or listen to Tuuri or how he demands perfection from Lalli, but I'd love to cut him some slack. He tries so hard with the people he values. Too hard, and things go wrong anyway, and then he must feel like he didn't try enough. Oh dear, he is such a mess, but a lovely mess if you ask me.
As for the future [speculations]
Good analysis both of you. Purely trivial sidelight: did you know that Lalli and Lauri, like the American name Larry, are all variants of Laurence? And I also like Onni - he is such a big brother/cousin archetype.
Time for this thread again! Adventure 2 page 215 and wow Warrior!Onni!
Seems like dragging himself out of his cocoon at Keuruu has been also good for him. I doubt he’s exactly happy at the moment, but he certainly doesn’t appear to be terrified either. He knows what he’s doing and why, and despite the sorrowful scene with him on p 213 he looks like he’s comfortable in his skin here.
Well thought, Wavewright. Once Onni committed to ‘lose all, or take the adventure utterly’, I thought he would shape up. I look forward to his further development. It would not surprise me if Onni went back to the forest again, either to live there or to die and come up again as trees and flowers.
(one of my friends said that if he wanted to stop his sister, he would lock her in the house, throw out her things or something else – and we see nothing from Onni except angry exclamations and logical (and correct) judgments).
Hi Latiria!
I don't think we've seen anything about year 90 society which implies that Onni would be considered to have any right to lock his sister in the house, throw out her things, or do anything other than to try to talk her out of going. She's no longer a child at the time, she's an adult; and while the specific subject hasn't come up in the comic, everything we have seen in the comic implies to me that brothers would not be considered to have any such right over adult sisters. Trying to lock her up or to steal her things might not be behavior that even occurs to Onni; but, if it did and he tried it, it might well result in Onni being the one who got locked up, once it became known.
Indeed (and welcome to you!). Just as an aside, I'm under the impression that everyone in Keuruu is housed in barracks, not individual family units. There might be family units in the barracks, but we have seen that Lalli had his own (tiny) barrack room - presumably Onni & Tuuri would as well.
P.S.: I disagree with many things from the previous comments (and totally agree with another), but this is only my opinion. For example, in my opinion, Onni was rude to Reynir only once, giving him a punch in the face. More of this, it can be easily to write off on emotions (incidentally, for the entire comics we have never seen Onni realistically cried, although causes was abound; under this Tuuri, Reynir and perhaps Lally cried), and judging by his response in Iceland, he even not took this to heart. All the rest of the time, it was either logical exclamations (I can't teach you – I don't know your gods, we won't meet again – I kind of went to die, you don't need to thank me – it's my job, look for this church yourself – I can't do it from Sweden), or systematic sentences (Oh, I told Lally, not you not to come either systematic (Oh, I told Lally, not you not to come again - didn't I tell you not to come again? - well, now I definitely told you not to come again). Not to mention the number of times he thanked Reynir, apologized to him, saved his life, and generally spent his time on him.
I don't think we've seen anything about year 90 society which implies that Onni would be considered to have any right to lock his sister in the house, throw out her things, or do anything other than to try to talk her out of going.Million kronur question: Do we know for sure whether society at large, or Tuuri herself, would ever have found out if Onni used his noita powers to that end?
(In which case, of course, our almost-untrained Reynir could be a serious problem. He means well, of course. But horrible things have been done in the name of meaning well.)... foreshadowing (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=714) much? ;)
... foreshadowing (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=714) much? ;)
To the matter at hand, you raise an interesting point. Presumably they would have had money for another person then? I’ve wondered about this a bit sometimes, but never got very far. I’ve thought Onni would have been a military mage.
But, while a mage may seem important to Taru, and possibly Trond would agree, the Västerströms don’t believe in magic and would certainly be against spending a hefty portion of the already too low budget on a mage. Or would they just leave the staffing to Taru and Trond completely, without even reviewing any of it? But they did recruit Emil.
Or was Taru planning to twist the truth, saying that her cousin will take care of the scouting, despite the fact that Onni definitely would not do any actual scouting?
Or maybe it was Onni she was meaning to trick? If she knew for a fact that Onni will not leave Keuruu, maybe she just ”offered” a position for him precisely for the purpose of shutting him up when he blames her for getting the young ones? Making him think it’s his fault that Tuuri ”had” to go?
As for your suggestion, my headcanon is that mages, or maybe only Finnish mages, can all feel the black presence (not just the voices but an idea where the beings are p) although possibly to varying degrees and distances. Lalli is actually the only one we see doing this (Väinö’s seeing very far on the water could mean literal seeing through the eyes of the gulls) but I think it’s universal for them. Sensing the natural spirits is part of their gift. But in my mind this only applies over a rather limited distance: dozens rather than hundreds of meters.
By the way, how did Torbjörn and Siv meet Trond and/or Taru to arrange this expedition? I don't believe I've ever read a fic about that.There actually is a canon explanation on page 138 (http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=138), except that it doesn't explain how they got to know Taru beforehand.
There actually is a canon explanation on page 138 (http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=138), except that it doesn't explain how they got to know Taru beforehand.
As for Taru being duplicitous, I won’t put anything beyond her. Beyond any of the organisers. They specifically went looking for vulnerable people to recruit to a suicide mission, and chose their own family to do it!
I always thought of Onni's magic more of a protective type. HE did not seem to be able to find grosslings or beasts (he needed Turri to find him one in ADVII (http://sssscomic.com/comic2.php?page=306))
Though Onni definitely is powerful. He seems to be able to work with the gods. He summoned Kokko and was able to convince the swan to let him "borrow" Tuuri. Those are some significant skills.
Even though he probably never left the base, I am sure the protective magic he wrought was very powerful. You wont need to leave for that.
All good points. Onni is very powerful.
Regarding his needing Tuuri to find a troll: it may be that he can sense trolls, but he doesn't know how big they are physically, nor how well armed or armored they are. So he could kill a troll remotely (he has to be able to, since he survived for a while before he "borrowed" Tuuri), but he needed Tuuri to find one small enough for him to spear and carry off for his stupid prank.
Honestly, if I were to rewrite Adventure II from scratch, I'd omit that stupid prank entirely. It's childish and absurd, and all it could realistically do is confirm to the team that he was nearby.
Your story with Väinö (https://archiveofourown.org/works/35743000/chapters/89126701) (which I love), highlight this.
Honestly, if I were to rewrite Adventure II from scratch, I'd omit that stupid prank entirely. It's childish and absurd, and all it could realistically do is confirm to the team that he was nearby.It's childish and absurd, and it's there to show how disordered Onni's thinking has become after all he's gone through, so it has a definite story purpose.
It's childish and absurd, and it's there to show how disordered Onni's thinking has become after all he's gone through, so it has a definite story purpose.