The Stand Still, Stay Silent Fan-Forum
Worlds and Stories => SSSS & ARTD Board => SSSS Re-Read => Topic started by: Jitter on October 03, 2022, 06:21:52 AM
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Either way, we're the first humans venturing this far since the dawn of our time. :mikkel:
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p 223. I noticed Emil is wearing white boots. They will not stay white without a lot of work...
Mikkel looks bored
In Minna's comments she talks about signing for her house. I am thinking that the comic and the sale of books and ad revenue must have been good enough to buy a house. (Good stuff)
p 228. I think this is Lalli's first taste of refined sugar. I am sure he would have had sweets like honey, dried fruit. Though they would probably be few and far between. Yes, sugar can be addictive. I know people who tried to remove it from their diet. It is very difficult especially if you by processed anything. (I was shocked to see how much is in Ketchup)
p 229 score!!
p 230 Emil insulting the dead...
p 232. The first view of a city. COOL
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Early chp 5 has some surprising (in reference to other parts of the comic) high tech: the proximity alert system, decontamination closet (UV? We don’t really know) and the decon spray. I wonder if they run out of the spray later, or why does Lalli have to take (cold?) baths? And Mikkel is constantly doing laundry. But not today!
And, the city! I probably wasn’t paying proper attention at all when I first binged through here - I was delighted with the city scenes, the ruined interiors etc. And I probably completely missed Emil’s friend on p 232 before! He’s very calm and brave, considering! (He probably didn’t really see it, just a flash of movement (and is rookie enough to not yet know a flash of movement is lethal in an inner city environment)).
Again a great combination or adventure and danger, humour, and forming relationships with new teammates.
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Early chp 5 has some surprising (in reference to other parts of the comic) high tech: the proximity alert system, decontamination closet (UV? We don’t really know) and the decon spray. I wonder if they run out of the spray later, or why does Lalli have to take (cold?) baths? And Mikkel is constantly doing laundry. But not today!
If I'm remembering right for the bath - Lalli got super covered in it so all the dregs had to be washed out of his hair and such.
The decontamination is probably more like a disinfectant spray. If there's a lump of raw chicken, you can't just spray disinfectant on it and expect it to be good - it would have to be fully washed away and any small bits removed.
For the laundry - I have a family of 5 and laundry is basically nonstop. 5-6 adults living in close quarters without proper plumbing? Clean laundry helps.
(and is rookie enough to not yet know a flash of movement is lethal in an inner city environment)).
Emil's earlier obsession with how his teammates see him definitely didn't help him. He probably was afraid of being called jumpy or seeing things or having his bravery questioned.
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Sympathy for the laundry! When my first husband (a mining engineer) was still alive, and our five kids were little, and we lived in the bush, often with no electricity, laundry was just a permanent ongoing thing.
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Sympathy for the laundry! When my first husband (a mining engineer) was still alive, and our five kids were little, and we lived in the bush, often with no electricity, laundry was just a permanent ongoing thing.
I cringe when I have to do manual laundry for a few pieces. I would hate to think what it was like for a family!! You are my hero!!
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We lived, among other places, at Tomahawk Creek in outback Far North Queensland. Population 8, occasionally 11 when everyone was there including us. We were around 50k from Comet, the nearest place with facilities such as a post office.
We had to haul water from the waterhole on the mostly dry creek, and then heat it on an open fire or a portable gas fire. Difficult with two of the kids still in nappies. But a good place to live anyway. But those types of experiences did give me a degree of sympathy for Emil in the comic, a city person suddenly reduced to that lifestyle.
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Dreki, you are of course right about any lumps etc needing getting washed off. I seem to think the baths were a regular occurrence later, but maybe it’s just all the fanfic I’ve read :) And you are absolutely correct about the close quarters and need for frequent laundering of basically everything.
Ok now I’m thinking how on top of everything else the inside of the Cattank also smells of damp laundry.
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If it smells like soap, that wont be so bad..but if it smells like laundry left in the washer too long EWWWW
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I’m thinkin the latter. Maybe not quite as if left in the washer but when trying to line dry in damp conditions (which I believe corresponds quite well with Danish winter weather)… at lest Mikkel is drying things outside and the air is probably generally clean, so maybe it’s not too bad. Unless it never ever gets properly dry at all and has to be folded inside the tiny living quarters while still completely damp. Uuf.
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I’m thinkin the latter. Maybe not quite as if left in the washer but when trying to line dry in damp conditions (which I believe likely corresponds quite well with Danish winter weather)… at lest Mikkel is drying things outside and the air is probably generally clean, so maybe it’s not to bad. Unless it never ever gets properly dry at all and has to be folded inside the tiny living quarters while still completel damp. Uuf.
I use a clothes line as much as I can, and every so often i fold something that may have been not quite dry. Especially in New England winters. I *know* that smell and hate it. Luckily for us modern folks there is Frebreeze
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Luckily for us modern folks there is Frebreeze
Ack! I'd rather smell the mold!
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One advantage of cold is that it dulls the nose! (I remember winter wilderness camping adventures where I shared tents for several days, without proper hygiene--this was mostly New England, no saunas--and the smell would hit us only during the drive back.) Not sure how cold it is in the tank, though.
And yeah, Lalli's decon baths are a fanfic staple, but I think we only see them once, on page 305? They seem to involve a (cold?) hose to remove the bits, and then a warm bathtub. We don't see why he needed one, btw, and it's still unclear to me why Emil is involved. Anyway, surely at least Emil and Sigrun get the same treatment when they come back? They are much more likely to get covered in goop.
Onto the comic!
I love Sigrun's comments on scouts on page 221. There's clearly some history there.
p223, yeah, white boots, whose idea was that? In general, I would like to meet the uniforms' designer and ask them some questions about their choices. (Although I suppose they might just be recolors of the cleanser/scout/hunter/support uniforms of the military of some country?)
p224, why is Lalli scratching instead of knocking? Because it's quieter? He's not actually a cat.
p226, yeah, that looks like UV light, but the way the clothes are all bunched together it's not going to get into all the crevices, so hmm.
p227, Lalli now knows how to give detailed scouting reports! Sorta. And we see that little 'leadership struggle' between Sigrun and Mikkel, plus... poor Emil.
p228, Emil doesn't lie! He did punch a giant in one of its faces--on the train. His previous field experience really was non-existent, wasn't it? And ooh, the first time we see radio black speech! Those early pages were so dense with information.
p230, I have heard many theories about Mikkel's relocation, but "he was fired" is still my top contender. And poor Emil, trying to sound cool.
p231. Amazing! But hmm, those open-wide houses suggest explosions, don't they?
p233. Wait, Emil's boots look black now. I know there's shadow, but Sigrun's are still white. Is that the design?? White in front, black in the back??
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Ack! I'd rather smell the mold!
I do not like the "fake febreeze" smells also. Usually vinegar or bleach will kill the smell.
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Tehta, there are no burn marks, doesn’t look like explosions. Maybe all residents became one giant and exited via roof?
Next, entering the first site! Sigrun’s rules seem sensible, although it might have been more sensible to set them while still at the Cattank so that Tuuri could have translated. And also rules are more useful if you actually stick to them. Other than that, I like the way Sigrun checks the site first. Her pep talk to Emil (ready to give up at first setback) on p 241 is also good. Furthermore it sounds like she’s actually done scavenging before. Has she, or is she just making it up to cheer up her little Viking?
Patpats from Lalli on the same page probably also lift Emil’s spirits considerably. A nice and actively friendly gesture from Lalli, which I had completely forgotten.
And poor Lalli, first he has to run all night and then scout for the away team during the day! No wonder he’s not very cheerful.
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I think Sigrun has definitely done scavenging before. She keeps checking for nests, and has other pieces of wisdom later, like "this is what we call a crap building". She's clearly gone into many Ancient houses before. Why would one do so if not to scavenge?
Of course, she would not have been looking for books. But maybe weapons, medical supplies, and "juice"?
And yeah, Lalli was actively nice to Emil (and Tuuri, a couple of times) in Adventure One. But at some point he seems to have stopped such things...
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hmm, those open-wide houses suggest explosions, don't they?
Hmmm, I'd say no. If explosions had put those holes into the buildings, the chairs next to the floor edges would've gotten thrown about. And if grosslings had torn them, they still should've fallen over from the shake the floors would've gotten. My guess is that parts of the structure have slowly rotted and crumbled away.
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That’s how it looks to me.
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So my feeling was actually that, yes, Minna was trying to draw crumbling buildings, but ended up drawing something that suggests more violence (maybe not explosions, but an earthquake, at least?) I am not some sort of derelict building expert, but my partner loves to explore them and we photograph them, and I feel like that sort of "random bite taken out of the outer walls, roof, and floors" look is super-rare. I would say that the roof tends to go first, and then once that is gone it's the floors/some inner walls, with the outer/supporting walls left as a crumbling shell until last. When you do get some bits of roof/floor hanging on, it's in the corners. (But most of the buildings I have seen are in Asia and, weirdly, Portugal. Well, and some odd mountain huts here and there. So maybe Scandinavian city stuff is different.)
BTW, I seem to remember reading comments saying something similar in the comments about the way she draws highways, form someone who did claim to be a highway expert.
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FWIW, once a building has large openings, and assuming that we're not talking about the Arctic or somesuch 8) , I would expect dirt getting blown in, collecting in the corners, and small plants to spring up there within only a couple years, so technically that imagery suggests that those Kastrup houses were meticulously gnawed on post-Defeat-of-Kastrup, rather than by Y0 events or since-Y0 residents. >:D
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I completely agree with that. Plants move in fast.
Also, that does look like a bite to me. So, a giant made out of Mikkel's colleagues, with a hunger for houses? Or maybe a tendency to be one of those "take one bite out of a chocolate, abandon it" people? Looking for some specific 'filling'?
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Page 232 the very middle panel- It looks like a beast is there as Sigrun is talking about them "jumping" out
Page 236 I think Tuuri was planning to look around. Her expression when Mikkel says someone needs to keep Tuuri company is great.
As the comic progresses, you can see how much Sigrun respects Mikkel. In the beginning of the adventure she treats him very poorly.
Page 239 Mouldy disintegrating books are gross.
I have noticed through the pages sometimes the boots are white, sometimes black. I think They may have been missed getting painted throughout
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I think Sigrun has definitely done scavenging before. She keeps checking for nests, and has other pieces of wisdom later, like "this is what we call a crap building". She's clearly gone into many Ancient houses before. Why would one do so if not to scavenge?
Of course, she would not have been looking for books. But maybe weapons, medical supplies, and "juice"?
Norway seems to be pretty involved in beating trolls back seeing as she's quite experienced in how to take care of various kinds in both adventures. I do think scavenging would be part of it.
Building supplies as well. Old-old houses (houses that are old even to us) were often made of sturdy things like massive wooden beams and stone - I imagine those would be quite valuable. Unfortunately they're also good places for nests.
I don't think she ever did much hunting based on the time when the herd of healthy deer came through and she didn't realize until well after that they could have been dinner.
I suspect Norway is pretty solid for food supplies.
And yeah, Lalli was actively nice to Emil (and Tuuri, a couple of times) in Adventure One. But at some point he seems to have stopped such things...
The second adventure is closer to home, plus Onni is in trouble, plus he just lost Tuuri. I think it makes sense for him to be more withdrawn.
(Sadly it's also likely a reflection of the author's particular brand of Christianity and a reaction to fans shipping them...)
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p 243 Lesson from Sigrun about being scared. She is right, that people would not be in the streets. "Watch the scout" Though she cannot read him at all.
p 245 Lalli being careful, closes the door
p 246 the self-inflicted dead dude Brings a bit of foreboding. Or a sense of despair . I would take the gun any any ammo he had though..(just saying..) Can clean it up later. There are comments about the other arm looking weird. I think he was trollifying and decided to take care of things instead of the gruesome outcome
p 248. I think Tuuri is not very happy about this journey so far
p 249. They are not alone...
p 252. I like Emil's expression when he realizes he is alone and curses Lalli (luckily someone translated in the comments)
p 253. I think this was a field hospital. lot's of beds.
p 255 Lots of creepy things. Sigrun was wise to close and lock the door again
p 259. Emil gets dirty again :)
p 260. Oh no!!
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p 228. I think this is Lalli's first taste of refined sugar. I am sure he would have had sweets like honey, dried fruit. Though they would probably be few and far between. Yes, sugar can be addictive. I know people who tried to remove it from their diet. It is very difficult especially if you by processed anything. (I was shocked to see how much is in Ketchup)
That's an interesting point. Also, if he already had a sweet tooth, having refined sugar for the first time could taste ethereal.
The second adventure is closer to home, plus Onni is in trouble, plus he just lost Tuuri. I think it makes sense for him to be more withdrawn.
(Sadly it's also likely a reflection of the author's particular brand of Christianity and a reaction to fans shipping them...)
I think it's also because she stopped caring before SSSS was finished. Whether or not she had, err, "Christian" reasons for doing so.
p 246 the self-inflicted dead dude Brings a bit of foreboding. Or a sense of despair . I would take the gun any any ammo he had though..(just saying..) Can clean it up later. There are comments about the other arm looking weird. I think he was trollifying and decided to take care of things instead of the gruesome outcome
I get self-inflicted gun shot due to "trollifying," or otherwise getting the Rash Illness is most likely the intended implication, and also the most obvious one, but the gun's entry point makes it look like they were shot by someone else. Given that they have a gun in their hand and how they were holding it, perhaps someone they were going to shoot. Also, yes, examining the gun and seeing if it could be used still would be a good idea.
223 - 233
Page 224 may be the first indication of Sigrun’s competency. She even tosses Tuuri her mask.
Page 225, second to last panel. For a second there, I thought Lalli’s collar was an extremely out of place cartoon mouth.
Page 228, it’s unclear as to whether Mikkel can hear what Lalli hears but does not recognize its meaning, or if Lalli hears something that Mikkel can not. I like this bit of ambiguity. (Though I do think it’s the latter.)
Page 230. I have not seen a lot of acknowledgement on Sigrun’s attitude towards things like danger and death. On this page she makes a joke about Mikkel losing his job, right after he explains what happened and even said, “A lot of good people I knew died.” In the last panel she looks plain bored and possibly disappointed that Tuuri did not respond to her joke.
On first reading I was honestly in the Very Often Annoyed with Emil Camp. On reread, I am not sure why.
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I get self-inflicted gun shot due to "trollifying," or otherwise getting the Rash Illness is most likely the intended implication, and also the most obvious one, but the gun's entry point makes it look like they were shot by someone else. Given that they have a gun in their hand and how they were holding it, perhaps someone they were going to shoot. Also, yes, examining the gun and seeing if it could be used still would be a good idea.
Honestly it never looked go me like it was self-inflicted. It does look more like the person was shot by someone else and they were trying to defend themself. It's possible that people panicked and even a bit of acne would be seen as the rash. Or just panicked and started shooting. Or had a mental breakdown and just started shooting.
I can see lots of reasons for someone in that situation to freak out.
It also is possible that a troll had a spiky appendage and the person wasn't shot but stabbed and was trying to kill the troll. So many potential causes of death ...
On first reading I was honestly in the Very Often Annoyed with Emil Camp. On reread, I am not sure why.
I still find him irritating. He's a pampered, spoilt child with no real skills and delusions of grandeur. He's obsessed with the wrong things - how his appearance is rather than whether he's actually useful.
I can have empathy for how he got fairly screwed over by first his family (allowing that BS "tutoring") then life.
But I also know he's ultimately a good person, does care, and has a lot of growth.
Still rankles me.
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I’m with dreki on the hazmat suit person, t has never occurred to me that the wound could be self-inflicted. Considering their position in second to last panel, it seems likelier than before as it seems there’s just the wall to the front where the shot came from.
But there couid be some space where another human, or a creature with a stinger (the same idea came to me just now looking at the corpse again and before seeing Dreki’s comment) cold have crawled to and hazmat followed. Or they were facing towards the right as per second to last panel, and just keeled on their side.
Self-inflicted is of course a possibility. Having seen what is going on, it would make sense to take the fast exit lane upon noticing sigs of infection. But wouldn’t one remove the helmer before that? It’s apparently possible although extremely unlucky to miss vital parts of one’s own brain even with a touch shot, so shooting through the helmet would risk some extra agony. Short-lived (no pun intended) in the circumstances, but still. If the reason was realizing they are infected, they might want to make sure no one uses the now contaminated suit any more and thus destroy the helmet, but still. It doesn’t look self-inflicted to me.
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For me, the biggest thing is how high on the helmet the entry point is, and where it seems to be on the skull. That would be a very odd place if it was self inflicted, as it would be awkward and uncomfortable to hold a gun there.
But if they were shot by someone else, or killed by something else, then this would not be an issue.
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I don't read Emil as genuinely convinced of his own superiority. I read him as someone who tries to talk big, and even to put others down, to cover up his (many, obvious) deficiencies. Even the "sounds lame" comment sounds to me like a youngster trying to appear all cool and blase about military matters.
Of course, this doesn't necessarily make the comment any less annoying. But I like that he immediately understands how he messed up, and is bothered by it. And also how willing he is to learn, especially from Sigrun.
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p 246 the self-inflicted dead dude Brings a bit of foreboding. Or a sense of despair . I would take the gun any any ammo he had though..(just saying..) Can clean it up later. There are comments about the other arm looking weird. I think he was trollifying and decided to take care of things instead of the gruesome outcome
I get self-inflicted gun shot due to "trollifying," or otherwise getting the Rash Illness is most likely the intended implication, and also the most obvious one, but the gun's entry point makes it look like they were shot by someone else. Given that they have a gun in their hand and how they were holding it, perhaps someone they were going to shoot. Also, yes, examining the gun and seeing if it could be used still would be a good idea.
Honestly it never looked go me like it was self-inflicted. It does look more like the person was shot by someone else and they were trying to defend themself. It's possible that people panicked and even a bit of acne would be seen as the rash. Or just panicked and started shooting. Or had a mental breakdown and just started shooting.
I can see lots of reasons for someone in that situation to freak out.
It also is possible that a troll had a spiky appendage and the person wasn't shot but stabbed and was trying to kill the troll. So many potential causes of death ...
I’m with dreki on the hazmat suit person, t has never occurred to me that the wound could be self-inflicted. Considering their position in second to last panel, it seems likelier than before as it seems there’s just the wall to the front where the shot came from.
But there couid be some space where another human, or a creature with a stinger (the same idea came to me just now looking at the corpse again and before seeing Dreki’s comment) cold have crawled to and hazmat followed. Or they were facing towards the right as per second to last panel, and just keeled on their side.
Self-inflicted is of course a possibility. Having seen what is going on, it would make sense to take the fast exit lane upon noticing sigs of infection. But wouldn’t one remove the helmer before that? It’s apparently possible although extremely unlucky to miss vital parts of one’s own brain even with a touch shot, so shooting through the helmet would risk some extra agony. Short-lived (no pun intended) in the circumstances, but still. If the reason was realizing they are infected, they might want to make sure no one uses the now contaminated suit any more and thus destroy the helmet, but still. It doesn’t look self-inflicted to me.
For me, the biggest thing is how high on the helmet the entry point is, and where it seems to be on the skull. That would be a very odd place if it was self inflicted, as it would be awkward and uncomfortable to hold a gun there.
But if they were shot by someone else, or killed by something else, then this would not be an issue.
I find it amazing that the issue that first prompted me to join the comments has prompted me to respond here so many years later.
Let's examine the last two panels on the page:
The penultimate panel shows the corpse lying with its head on the right, facing into a niche in the corner of the room.
On the last panel, there is a blood splatter directly behind the corpse, indicating the shot was fired there (even if such a wound would allow someone to move afterward, which it wouldn't).
The "camera"/POV in that last panel is IN A WALL.
NO ONE could have shot him without SHOOTING THROUGH A WALL.
He shot himself, probably as a result of the same panic that made him barricade a SLIDING DOOR, as shown on the prior page.
See my very first disqus comment on the matter: http://disq.us/p/tlp159 (http://disq.us/p/tlp159).
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Looney, you are right. And there’s alao the way the door is barricaded from the side of this room. On the other hand ww are not seeing the entirety of the room, there should be a door somewhere into the upper floor. Because the entire floor is unlikely be just this one reading room, bu particularly because the doesn’t seem to be enough room for the sofa and armchair inside this room.
Sill, how about another person ran here with a gun and hid into that corner? And when hazmat came looking, sho the, when they were peeking into the hiding place? And then left the room via whatever other route? Or, the potential thing with a stinger could be quite small or strike via an opening in the wall? Admittedly, no evidence of a stinger troll, but wouldn’t it be a possibility?
I also updated the schedule.
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p250. Maybe the troll in the vent is bigger than a mouse beast?
p251 I could not have possibly suggested we stay together...you heard wrong..
p252. Cursed Finn? (DaiJB's comment is great!)
p254. This perspective gives an idea of how many people were infected, and these are just the one that sought help
p255. Do you really want to go in there?
p256. Nope!
p259. Right on Emil's hair again. (chuckle)
p260 Definitely bigger than a mouse beast...(Lots of comments on the troll. One comment said he looked like slime from ghostbusters. Not as friendly though)
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p 261. Definitely not as friendly as Slimer, and way too hungry. Is that a second one behind the door ?? I'd be running too.
p 262 That thing still has human arms and hands. Really Freaky
p 263. time to go. I like Emil's idea
p 264. and..BOOM
p 265 Mikkel is now awake. Plus he's the only one noticing a certain someone is missing...I am sure Lalli was not expecting a boom.
p 266. Yep Lalli was not expecting a boom. Plus he had to be caught by Mikkel...The horror!
p 267-268 Sigrun is on an adrenaline rush. While Emil is coming off one in a most unpleasant way
p 269. Book Critique.
p 270. I agree with Tuuri, Mikkel is a book hog, plus it *is* her job. Plus a lot of speculation about Sigrun's scratching. heh heh
p 271. Emil's hair still sparkles..
p 272. Dream world and a quick glimpse of a new team member. (Except at this point we have no idea of any of that!!)
p 273. great art and Lalli is with his spirit guide...
p 274. Info page
p 275. It looks like this Rash victim had died, but this picture always gave me the creeps. Though a funny comment about exfoliating..
p 276. Our heroes at the end of book 1
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For our skeletal friend, I think the real-world reason is either not putting a lot of thought into it or simply choosing style over realism. In-universe, one could think of it as a locked-room mystery.
234 - 241
I don’t have much to say for these pages, but there is some organic world building here, and this is where we really start to see Sigrun mentoring Emil.
242 - 249
On page 242, Sigrun sees skeletons and then has that expression (on panel 4). I think she is either processing or pushing down her emotions about them.
Also on page 242, Emil panicked, and Sigrun tried to calm him down by talking. When that does not work, she slaps him. On the next page, Sigrun goes back to trying to reason with Emil. I don’t like the trope of hitting someone to calm them down, and while I think it can work in real life, I would not recommend it, no matter how dangerous the situation. All because something can work, does not mean it will and it could make the situation worse.
Taking it for what it is here though, I think Sigrun handled it fine. It was a dangerous situation. She tried talking first and then, after calming him down, talked to him again.
Lastly for this page, Lalli’s expression on the seventh panel (third to last). I just really like it.
For page 243, I’m just noting Sigrun's comment on the dead being, “kinda said.”
Page 245, I love the tone shift. From the excitement of Sigrun and Emil to Lalli’s quite caution. And how this page is framed, it gives the reader a sense that something is going to threaten them soon.
Page 246, to be fair to Sigrun and Emil, I don’t think most people could just go out and grab books that have high-value to collectors. What art, science, and history has been lost? How much do Danish collectors care about old information in their own language if they can find it in others' and translate it? What “low art” will people pay big money for?
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Given that in the years we've been analysing Minna's drawings it's been clear that she draws art, not anatomy texts. She won't have gotten too involved in exact forensics of wounds and building decay and explosion vectors and physics in general; I'm not sure we should extrapolate too much from her drawings alone.
On the other hand, I have always really grooved on all the commentariat coming out and providing bits of details on just how those processes do happen! One of the unexpected bonuses of SSSS fandom.
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Okay I know that this is a bit late, but on page 214 I only just noticed that Lalli is trying to sleep and hte sun's getting in his eyes so Emil puts his hand over Lalli's eyes and it is adorable - https://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=214
I don't read Emil as genuinely convinced of his own superiority. I read him as someone who tries to talk big, and even to put others down, to cover up his (many, obvious) deficiencies. Even the "sounds lame" comment sounds to me like a youngster trying to appear all cool and blase about military matters.
I think that Emil, previously, truly believed it. He was raised very spoiled, very pampered, he was never once challenged and allowed to believe he was just that good.
However I think that Emil's confidence has been deeply, severely shaken. The first blow happened when he had to go to a regular school and was faced with how utterly uneducated he really was. Now this is the first blow so his ego stands up to it and he chooses to believe the narrative that they're out to get him.
But then I imagine it's continued being shaken, along with realizing just how much life sucks without oodles of money. And by the time he reaches the start of the comic - yes I agree he's more desperate to convince everyone of it but is actually deeply insecure.
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Dreki, you are right! I had always just thought Emil is touching Lalli to calm him because he makes the ynnhh noise which I assumed was because of the dream. But the light is there just as you say! Also it’s quite possible Lalli would be anything but comforted by touch from someone who at this point is a complete stranger (or a weird Swede).
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Dreki, you are right! I had always just thought Emil is touching Lalli to calm him because he makes the ynnhh noise which I assumed was because of the dream. But the light is there just as you say! Also it’s quite possible Lalli would be anything but comforted by touch from someone who at this point is a complete stranger (or a weird Swede).
Yeah it isn't too obvious because of the dream in the first panel. But the light is there so I think that's what happened. In the fourth panel, Lalli seems to have turned his head into the touch as well.
It's really telling that Emil seems to intuitively know how to interact with Lalli. Most people don't.
At that point they've only known each other for a day or two and seem to communicate better than Lalli and Tuuri do despite the full language barrier.
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250 - 260
No one gave Lalli any real indication that he should stay with Emil. Sigrun just shoved him next to Emil, who then put his arm around Lalli. Seeing Sigrun leave like that is a better indication that they should split than anything he got for staying with Emil.
The buildup on pages 258-259 with the payoff on page 260. It’s so good. I bet it reads even better in print because the horror on page 260 is seen all at once.
261 - 268
On page 263, Sigrun grabs the beast by its teeth. A really dangerous move that risked her fingers, but she had a split second to make the decision. She needed to save Emil and they needed to get out.
Page 265, the first two panels. This poor man lol.
Emil seemed to have forgotten about Lalli. He may have not used fire if he had remembered. The fire could have put Lalli in more danger than Emil and Sigrun, but without it they would have something big on their tail.
Emil is running on adrenaline here, but he likely knows that running into a burning building is not a great idea. Sigrun stopped him, so it may be a very bad, will only get Emil killed, idea. And then there are trolls in there too. He’s not thinking clearly but I would not be surprised if he would take the risk with a clearer head (though maybe someone could talk him out of it).
Also, how strong do you think Sigrun is compared to Emil? She held him back for a moment, but it’s not like he was fighting her or anything.
Page 268-
(http://i.imgur.com/TSjUn5m.png)
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OK it has been awhile, i had to go back and look at the chapters (i get involved and then read ahead ha ha)
p288 We now have a name for braidy (I hated that name) Reynir I can get behind. (Which is for Rowan. I did a bit of reading on the Rowan. It has/had a prominent place in history.
Sigrun says he is a prisoner and Mikkel does not. Though Emil is following Sigrun's orders
p289 Well we are out of food. Plus they seem to be horrified they have a civilian (Which kinda make me think this was quasi-military, even though it actually isn't)
p290 Emil thinks Reynir will hate him. Reynir can't hate anyone. It is not in his nature lol Lalli is definitely does not trust the new comer. Emil still has a lot of his bravado.
p291 some comments about shipping Lalli and Reynir...Nah!! Emil-Lalli all the way ;)
p293 Reynir finds out the truth. His parents want him to stay home....forever!!
p294-p295. Reynir is soooo innocent/ignorant. Egads!! Though he is a blank slate which can open up so many possibilities (Whcih we will know later...)
p296-p297 The bad news. It must have been really devastating to be willing to climb in a crate.
p298 Everyone is unhappy about the outcome
p299 I gather the Icelandic government will be unhappy if he does not make it back
p291
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269 - 276
269-270, the death of sports is interesting to me. I would assume that football/soccer would still be around. It’s popular in real life and can be cheap, kids can play it, etc. I’m not really sure about other sports though.
270, for Mikkel keeping the book, I think he is just trying to protect Tuuri in a way, or he just wants to be extra careful with it, so he’s keeping it himself. Though people did use this for the theory that Mikkel is here for a Special Secret (Trond Related) Reason.
271, some good foreshadowing with Sigrun's comment in the fourth panel then mysteriously transitioning to Lalli in the dreamworld. The obvious thing is that Reynir is going to show up soon, but it could be taken as the real danger they come across later.
272, this page is a bit ambiguous. Does Lalli think there is something noteworthy about Reynir, or is it just that running into another mage is that unusual?
And that’s Book 1!
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269 - 276
269-270, the death of sports is interesting to me. I would assume that football/soccer would still be around. It’s popular in real life and can be cheap, kids can play it, etc. I’m not really sure about other sports though.
Quite a few sports have a history of helping people train to fight so I think many would last. Golf in particular is just really impractical because it needs so much land dedicated to it as well as specialty equipment.
You want people to learn how to work together in a team, hand/eye coordination, aim, reflexes, etc in a world where they could be attacked by trolls so I do think they'd last.
A lot would probably have changed and not be as formal. But I would expect games based on catching and throwing and games based on using a stick to hit a thrown object and games based on working in a team to be around.
I don't think they'd have dedicated arenas or competitive very much, though.
272, this page is a bit ambiguous. Does Lalli think there is something noteworthy about Reynir, or is it just that running into another mage is that unusual?
I got the sense that running into another mage is pretty unusual, particularly when he's out in the silent world. (It seems like that impacts things in the dreamworld) And in fairness that braid is noteworthy on its own.
It seems like Lalli doesn't have much experience with Icelandic mages, too, so it is possible that's quite noteworthy to him as well.
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Quite a few sports have a history of helping people train to fight so I think many would last. Golf in particular is just really impractical because it needs so much land dedicated to it as well as specialty equipment.
You want people to learn how to work together in a team, hand/eye coordination, aim, reflexes, etc in a world where they could be attacked by trolls so I do think they'd last.
A lot would probably have changed and not be as formal. But I would expect games based on catching and throwing and games based on using a stick to hit a thrown object and games based on working in a team to be around.
I don't think they'd have dedicated arenas or competitive very much, though.
I quite agree. Something like volleyball may occur or at least some version of it. The society may view these games as more like tag and other such things. Jumping rope and what not. Otherwise there would be skiing definitely, it is a good way to get around during winter. Along with skating. Pretty sure they will exercise one way or another, they just don't compete that much, maybe during special festivals. A ball, skis or skates - or just plain old running or sledding. Ice hockey may survive. It's not like the Nordics were ever that much into golf anyway so not that one.
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I quite agree. Something like volleyball may occur or at least some version of it. The society may view these games as more like tag and other such things. Jumping rope and what not. Otherwise there would be skiing definitely, it is a good way to get around during winter. Along with skating. Pretty sure they will exercise one way or another, they just don't compete that much, maybe during special festivals. A ball, skis or skates - or just plain old running or sledding. Ice hockey may survive. It's not like the Nordics were ever that much into golf anyway so not that one.
For the competitions - I wonder if there would be pressure to avoid things like city pride or, even playfully, pitting cities/countries against each other the way sports does now. There might be way more focus on building solidarity than competition. The last thing they need is a civil war.
Particularly in places like Finland I imagine it would just be sobering and depressing to see the list of neighboring teams shrink and change each year.
But I do expect games of some kind or other to last in festivals. People have had celebratory games for, if I remember right, all of recorded history. That wouldn't disappear, it's very much in our nature.
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Yes. I don't seem to have the Sports gene, but it's very obviously one of the Things Humans Do. There will certainly be ball games; and there will certainly be racing games, in that part of the world probably both on foot and on skiis. Archery and gun shooting games seem almost certain, though if ammunition's really short the gun version maybe only in the form of training. I would bet that the areas which have herding dogs will have games showing off canine skills; and that in a world in which cats are trained that there's the equivalent with felines; and that there's some form of tractor and/or draft animal pulls. And, speaking of betting, that's also a Thing Humans Do: there will almost certainly be gambling.
Whether any of these will exist in our modern wide-area organized forms, as opposed to more casual forms among smaller groups, is another question. As is the extent to which they'll be primarily about the competition, or primarily about increasing everybody's skills.
Golf, at least in its modern form, requires a large amount of time, energy, water, and chemical input to be applied to a large area of land in order to produce the sort of very even greens surface that won't send the ball in unexpected directions. I wouldn't expect that to have survived the famines.
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Golf, at least in its modern form, requires a large amount of time, energy, water, and chemical input to be applied to a large area of land in order to produce the sort of very even greens surface that won't send the ball in unexpected directions. I wouldn't expect that to have survived the famines.
Well, we have variants (https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golfe_urbano) to address (https://www.abebooks.de/9781594862809/Guerilla-Golf-Complete-Guide-Playing-159486280X/plp) those points already. 8)
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There’s also winter golf :) But yeah, not likely to be among the top sports!
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Oh I had forgotten about farming competitions. Iceland will certainly have things like a state fair to show off animals/produce/herding skills. It's a pretty vital part of the farm industry. There's usually smaller games for people and particularly children as well.
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Well, we have [url]variants to [url] address those points already. 8)
I almost added something like "well, maybe miniature golf". You're right, of course, that some variants might have survived; but I suspect the book that was rescued (or left in the cat tank?) wasn't primarily about those variants.
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I suspect the book that was rescued (or left in the cat tank?) wasn't primarily about those variants.
The book (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=269) promised to make the reader into a professional golf player, which would be atypical for any variants other than "standard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golf#Professional_golf)" and minigolf (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniature_golf#Competitions), I guess, and to do so within 30 days, which suggests that it must refer to some version so apocryphal that we have not even thought of it yet. :3
(Maybe its author invented one of his own and in order to qualify as a "professional", all you'll have to do is to send him a "where do I find that 'professional league' you're talking about!?" letter so that he can enter your name on his sucker list? >:D )
On a marginally more serious note, the golfer displayed on the title seems to be wearing rather "traditional" clothing. No glove or cap, though, and the club he's holding would be a putter (if not a minigolf one) ...
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Plus Outback Australia has Desert Golf, not to mention the Todd River Regatta, a footrace run by teams each carrying the shell of a boat through a course along the dry bed of the Todd River. It’s fun!
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Just so you know I am declaring a break fir Christmas. I don’t think anyone is actually up to date with the current schedule, or at least hasn’t commented according to it. Let’s carry on in January!
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Plus Outback Australia has Desert Golf, not to mention the Todd River Regatta, a footrace run by teams each carrying the shell of a boat through a course along the dry bed of the Todd River. It’s fun!
We have bed races . . .
No river beds involved. Actual beds. More or less the kind of beds one sleeps on, though embellishments of wildly varying types are common, as are costumes. Attach wheels. One team member must remain on the bed. Others push. Attaching wheels so they stay on is recommended, but often not attained.
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We have bed races here too, but more often in the cities.
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I don't remember ever seeing them in the cities here (though somebody may correct me); I thought it was a small-town thing.
Antipodes!
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Plus Outback Australia has Desert Golf, not to mention the Todd River Regatta, a footrace run by teams each carrying the shell of a boat through a course along the dry bed of the Todd River. It’s fun!
I definitely think what's done will vary by location. Like the great plains in America would be good for a form of golf - provided it's been cleansed and they didn't need the land for food. Which is possible.
I imagine areas like the outback would be incredibly inhospitable for trolls, aren't food for farming, and would end up a good choice for some recreation.
Just so you know I am declaring a break fir Christmas. I don’t think anyone is actually up to date with the current schedule, or at least hasn’t commented according to it. Let’s carry on in January!
You mean this isn't the official SSSS sports thread?
Sounds good to me, enjoy your holidays!
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Small towns do bed races too, but some of the most memorable ones I have seen took place in the 1960s in the broad streets around Melbourne University. For some obscure reason Engineering students were often involved. We general science students used to provide peripheral amusements: my own speciality was stinks, smoke and sparkles.
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You mean this isn't the official SSSS sports thread?
Sounds good to me, enjoy your holidays!
Oops sorry, didn’t mean it like that! Please continue the discussion about sports and other games, it’s very relevant to the season (see e.g. Advent Calendar entry for the 18th) and came up because of canon, no worries whatsoever. I didn’t mean to shut you up.
There IS a sports thread too (at least one) if you want to check it out: https://ssssforum.com/index.php?topic=1145.0
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Small towns do bed races too, but some of the most memorable ones I have seen took place in the 1960s in the broad streets around Melbourne University. For some obscure reason Engineering students were often involved. We general science students used to provide peripheral amusements: my own speciality was stinks, smoke and sparkles.
I did not know bed races was a thing. My town does them on Labor day. (We have a parade later in the morning, so the street is closed to traffic) I just thought it was some little local town weirdness
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I did not know bed races was a thing. My town does them on Labor day. (We have a parade later in the morning, so the street is closed to traffic) I just thought it was some little local town weirdness
I think it is a local town weirdness that just happens to be wide spread to many local towns. :)
Oops sorry, didn’t mean it like that! Please continue the discussion about sports and other games, it’s very relevant to the season (see e.g. Advent Calendar entry for the 18th) and came up because of canon, no worries whatsoever. I didn’t mean to shut you up.
There IS a sports thread too (at least one) if you want to check it out: https://ssssforum.com/index.php?topic=1145.0
Ah you didn't you're fine.
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Chapter 7 opens (p 302-304) with some beautiful and healthy cats. And some poetry about how the kittens are being carried to safety. Which in retrospect is very sad.
The sad dog is also seen for the first time, by readers although not by the team. It looks like, and the comments agree, there are worms in its nose, but. If mosquitoes cannot eat from grosslings, surely they won’t get worms or maggots either? So are those just little weird tentacles?
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Chapter 7 opens (p 302-304) with some beautiful and healthy cats. And some poetry about how the kittens are being carried to safety. Which in retrospect is very sad.
Yeah knowing what we know at the end this was a very sad start.
The sad dog is also seen for the first time, by readers although not by the team. It looks like, and the comments agree, there are worms in its nose, but. If mosquitoes cannot eat from grosslings, surely they won’t get worms or maggots either? So are those just little weird tentacles?
The kade sent maggots which kitty reacted to in adv 2 so maybe maggots have a connection?
Mosquitoes aren't decomposers, but maggots are so I can imagine their systems being weaker to infection. Whereas maggots are evolved to eat rotting flesh.
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Oh right, you are spot on! We actually discussed at some point that there definitely are some decomposers that decompose grosslings, because otherwise the carcasses wouldn’t disappear. And also there are bones of dead grosslings (big ones in the illustration pieces which definitely requires for something to have eaten or otherwise utilized the flesh.
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I wonder if carrion birds like vultures and crows would be able to handle it as well - or adapt fairly easily. They aren't effected by the rash illness and tend to be able to eat pretty gross stuff.
We know water with troll guts in it is safe to drink after being boiled, just tastes gross. I'm curious what happens to a person who thoroughly cooked dead troll meat then ate it - is it just revolting? Would it cause vomiting? Would it have worse effects?
I believe in comic it was referred to as toxic, but it's not clear if cooking effects that. Although I'm sure it'd be the absolute last thing anyone would want to do.
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I don’t think its in the comic itself but we have Word of Minna (from back when she cared) that it is toxic. It wouldn’t be possibly to eat it but if someone managed it would be very bad, I don’t recall exactly but possibly even lethal.
The same idea has occurred to others, several times :)
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I remember that story by lwise in which Mikkel, in the body of an animal but still trying to protect his team, is tearing at an exposed bit of Surma’s spine with his fangs and trying to bite through before his animal body dies of the corrosive poison of troll flesh. That was a sad but very well made story.
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I don’t think its in the comic itself but we have Word of Minna (from back when she cared) that it is toxic. It wouldn’t be possibly to eat it but if someone managed it would be very bad, I don’t recall exactly but possibly even lethal.
The same idea has occurred to others, several times :)
I specifically remember that she did not call it "toxic", but generally inedible. The fandom IIRC settled on "caustic", but even that wasn't her own word ...
What we do know for a canon fact is that the blood kills off mosquitoes as they ingest it (which they will, so the chemical cues they act on must still be there). Dead grosslings getting reduced to skeletons might be due to sheer physics/chemistry and the body not being able to repair damages anymore, rather than something living decomposing it; remember that, depending on plot needs ;), grossling bodies can prove surprisingly frail ...
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Toxins can be removed - funnily enough the Icelandic have ridiculous methods to remove toxins from poisonous sharks and make them edible. It takes months of process but it's also believable they'd try it on dolphin and seal trolls during the famine.
I know there's a certain degree of magic to the illness and beasts, though.
What we do know for a canon fact is that the blood kills off mosquitoes as they ingest it (which they will, so the chemical cues they act on must still be there). Dead grosslings getting reduced to skeletons might be due to sheer physics/chemistry and the body not being able to repair damages anymore, rather than something living decomposing it; remember that, depending on plot needs ;), grossling bodies can prove surprisingly frail ...
That's not really how physics/chemistry works. When the body stops functioning, without any decomposers, it would dry up but just lie there. Changes wouldn't happen because there's no longer the catalyst of life to make them happen.
It might with the more corrosive kalma - but then some trolls mutate to survive the corrosion.
The reason dead animal flesh doesnt just sit around is because something is eating it.
Rotting is due to bacteria or fungi. And often from bacteria/fungi already present in the creature hence why it starts so fast- although the air is also full of it. Even without any insects/birds, decomposition happens.
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That's not really how physics/chemistry works. When the body stops functioning, without any decomposers, it would dry up but just lie there.
Would it? There's things like erosion, acidic rain, UV irradiation, wildfires, and the very molecules our bodies are made of aren't exactly indestructible even under ideal conditions, either - which is why a living body keeps replacing/reproducing them. I don't think that a grossling corpse's molecules need to be broken down to atoms or beyond to stop being Nasty Untouchable Stuff™ and vanishing for good.
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I was actually thinking quite hard on this yesterday but didn’t come to much of a conclusion. Physical processes wii of course break down everything eventually but it’s my understanding that this is a surprisingly long eventually.
Off the top of my head I know of a study where decomposition of cow poo was studied in such a way that dung beetles were not allowed in but everything else was the same, weather, microbes etc. The results indicated that removal of just the beetles (so not all decomposers) leads to problems. And dung would seem to be in a… format? which would readily lend itself to decomposing even without beetles.
Here’s some info although this is not about the study I was thinking about. I seem to recall 4H clubs participating in the field testing. https://www.theguardian.com/science/grrlscientist/2013/may/11/1
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Delightful article! And yeah, not only dung beetles, but coprophagous fungi here in Australia have adaptations to marsupial dung, though some of them have adapted to cow dung better than the scarabids.
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I was actually thinking quite hard on this yesterday but didn’t come to much of a conclusion. Physical processes wii of course break down everything eventually but it’s my understanding that this is a surprisingly long eventually.
So, they take longer to decompose. They also take a lot longer to die, short of having a helpful cleanser or troll hunter at hand. Coincidence ... ? 8)
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Yeah, there may be reasons other than safety and hygiene for burning troll and beast corpses. It would certainly aid chemical decomposition.
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Yeah, there may be reasons other than safety and hygiene for burning troll and beast corpses. It would certainly aid chemical decomposition.
Burning is faster than any other decomposition process.
It also might neutralize the toxins.
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P 310: another great landscape piece! Even better right now for me for two reasons:
- the weather outside sounds exactly like the weather on the page looks like
- I just read a very very good post-apocalypse novel set in Sweden, mostly around Copenhagen, which is very realistic in the description of what happens when the collapse comes. This page resonates very well with that, although the apocalypse event is different.
The book is Stjärnklart by Lars Wideräng, and I would recommend it to anyone interested in SSSS. Sadly it is mot available in English as far as I can tell, only in Swedish and Finnish (Tähtikirkas) (and possibly in at least one other Scandinavian language). Anyways if you get the chance, check it out. It’s bleak but great, if one is into apocalypses.
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P319 Reynir sitting in his dream boat on top great falls.
What is this? Where is this? What is the nature and the function of the boat? Is this the Dream Ocean? Certainly looks like it, but if so what are the falls? This is the only scene we ever get of anything like this at all.
Now don’t get me wrong, the pages are great and I love the boat. But, is this some place of Reynir's instead of the actual Ocean? Maybe a memory of a scary event when he waa little, and had gotten lost, and sound of water was so very loud?
But no, how could the dog beast be here in that case? What is it anyway? Is it the spiderdog or not??
I'm so confused! Do any of you have any word of Minna on any of this?
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I'm so confused! Do any of you have any word of Minna on any of this?
I think that Minna suggested (at a later point) that Nyuuudog is not connected to Cthulhund in any way, but I wouldn't have the slightest what else it is supposed to be. Unless it's his fylgja exhibiting years' worth of stress from unsuccessful attempts at establishing contact with Reynir! :D (But then it should still be an Icelandic Sheepdog, shouldn't it?)
No information on the surrounding, either, I'm afraid. Note that at the time it was shown, we were still under the impression that there are two separate tiers of the magespace (with Lalli needing to portal out of his haven to the general Dream Sea to try to contact Onni), so why not even more, possibly a seiðkona-only one, that Minna had planned at that point. The tiers concept then went into the wastebin when Reynir demonstrated that he can just walk from the Dream Sea into havens and back out ...
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I've always been confused about that scene! I wonder if perhaps the dream boat is somewhere mages wake up in when they first become aware of the dream world? Presuming the dog is spiderdog, it could be the soul waiting to be freed while the body wanders, but it doesn't have a lot of the distinctive qualities spiderdog had.
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Yeah, I don’t think I was confused (or at least not this confused) the first time I got to this page, because of lack of further info about the Dreamworld but now I certainly am. Several people in the comments suggested it’s not really a wall but rather a point where the local thing that passes for gravity in the dream plane just changes direction. But the edge is not a straight line although the lip of the fall is strangely rectangular.
Also a nice peek under the surface of the (presumably common version of) the Dream Ocean on the chapter cover on p 301.
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What is this? Where is this? What is the nature and the function of the boat? Is this the Dream Ocean? Certainly looks like it, but if so what are the falls? This is the only scene we ever get of anything like this at all.
Is this the real life, is this just fantasy?
Now don’t get me wrong, the pages are great and I love the boat. But, is this some place of Reynir's instead of the actual Ocean? Maybe a memory of a scary event when he waa little, and had gotten lost, and sound of water was so very loud?
Okay! Suggestion!
In Finnish folklore sleeping and death (tuonela) are connected and the soul bird things take you to sleep also take you to Tuonela.
In Iceland, they tend to send their dead off in a boat with a funeral pyre. So maybe the boat is meant to bring him there similar to how the soul birds take the Finnish mages to their havens?
And since this is the first time Reynir is conscious that's why we see it?
Or the boat takes him to his haven each time but it's not worth the panels to show?
But no, how could the dog beast be here in that case? What is it anyway? Is it the spiderdog or not??
It looks like exactly like the spider dog.
This is a big gripe for me! Onni keeps talking about the dream sea being dangerous. We see Lalli get attacked on it like so many times.
This is the only time we see Reynir face anything resembling an issue and he goes skipping along it like friggin Little Red Riding Braid without a care in the world.
Gah I wish we found out more about Icelandic mages with actual damn training!
Can they all walk on the dream sea? Does walking on the sea make it safer? Why can't Finnish mages?
Is Lalli attacked more often due to the kade's influence or is he genuinely more vulnerable? Are all Finnish mages more vulnerable than all Icelandic mages?
Does Reynir have special powers even by Icelandic standards since he was chosen to release the souls of the angry ghosts? If so does he still have those powers? Will he be called to keep going deep into the silent world and release decades trapped souls?
So many questions!
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Later on Onni explains to Lalli that foreign mages do that (move around and even into people’s havens) so it is something some/many/all Icelandic mages can do, although apparently it’s not that they skip around irritating the Finns, Onni has only heard about it. As Reynir seems to have a knack for finding things, it’s possible he’s a lot more likely to stumble upon anyone?
I guess the Denizens of the water are in the water as Reynir never seems to have trouble with them. But it’s just a guess.
I was thinking about the funeral boats as well and I may have an idea, but I have to muse on it a bit more. Probably not the explanation (sadly, the explanation probably doesn’t exist, at least not anymore) but an explanation?
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Later on Onni explains to Lalli that foreign mages do that (move around and even into people’s havens) so it is something some/many/all Icelandic mages can do, although apparently it’s not that they skip around irritating the Finns, Onni has only heard about it. As Reynir seems to have a knack for finding things, it’s possible he’s a lot more likely to stumble upon anyone?
We know they can enter Finnish havens (not clear if they can enter Icelandic ones, personally I headcanon they can't) - I suppose that can mean they can walk on the water as well.
I also headcanon, and I think this makes sense, that havens go by a combination of physical and emotional closeness - so I imagine that a Finnish mage who travels to Norway/Iceland might find themselves overrun by overzealous mages, and Icelandic mages who visit Finland likely commit faux pas - but Onni hasn't worked closely enough for that to be an issue.
I also do agree that Reynir seems to have a knack for stumbling on people. One might say that luck is on his side. (since finding out 'Onni' means 'luck' I am slightly obsessed with those puns)
I guess the Denizens of the water are in the water as Reynir never seems to have trouble with them. But it’s just a guess.
It bothers me a bit given that in the real world, underwater critters can hunt and attack things standing on the water. I imagine Reynir like a water strider - and fish will eat them. (but they're itty bitty so fish rarely bother with them- but Reynir is not itty bitty)
I can think of a few reasons he wouldn't be targeted as much as the swimming Lalli, it just bothers me that it's so deadly to Lalli and seemingly harmless to him aside from that one random bloody dog!
I was thinking about the funeral boats as well and I may have an idea, but I have to muse on it a bit more. Probably not the explanation (sadly, the explanation probably doesn’t exist, at least not anymore) but an explanation?
From what I've seen Minna has forgotten a lot. Which isn't uncommon - even people who love their work, it's a lot to keep track of and it's easy for things to slip through the cracks even with a solid organizational system. But yeah I imagine that she's probably long forgotten or thought better of it and retroactively wrote it out.
Personally I don't treat "word of god" as canonical the way the actual canon is - so while I might give it more consideration than fanon, I'm willing to accept fanon over "word of god" when it makes more sense.
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My headcanon is that Reyni’s special affinity is finding things. People, yes, but also new galdrastafir, ancient churches, original souls of Kades… The two latter ones admittedly can be explained by finding people, but still. It seems to work both in the Dreamworld and the real world (case in point: the way he immediately fished Lalli up from the mud pond after Lalli was nearly drowned by the Tanktroll).
I agree on your idea about how closeness in the Dreamworld works. He finds Lalli first because he’s physically near, and then Onni because… Lalli and Onni’s bond makes their havens be nearby? Onni is looking for Lalli, making him draw nearer? A bit of both? It’s too bad we never see any other Icelandic mages except for the condescending teacher who doesn’t do anything.
As for the Denizens, it might be they are dangerous to Reynir too but he’s just oblivious enough and lucky enough at the same time that he just dances over them never knowing how near death he always is. Although, Onni doesn’t say anything about them even when Reynir drags him onto a trek over the Ocean to find Anne, so maybe the surface offers at least some protection. Similarly, nothing attacks Lalli when they are looking for Onni together.
The fact Onni and Lalli consider it rude (instead of being utterly amazed by the impossible happening) seems to indicate that some Finnish mages can cross the Ocean to visit each other. Onni can and does fly across distance, Ensi also had a bird Luonto. I wonder if it’s more common to have a bird Luonto and be able to fly or not and be stuck like Lalli is?
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My headcanon is that Reyni’s special affinity is finding things. People, yes, but also new galdrastafir, ancient churches, original souls of Kades… The two latter ones admittedly can be explained by finding people, but still. It seems to work both in the Dreamworld and the real world (case in point: the way he immediately fished Lalli up from the mud pond after Lalli was nearly drowned by the Tanktroll).
I like this one - since he does seem good at making up galdrastafir, which I personally suspect is not common for mages. Or at least not without considerably more training than "literally none". Someone has to introduce new magic to the world when it's needed.
My headcanon is that the world has progressed to the point that it's time to start increasing the reclamation efforts - and that's what the expedition was part of. It's how they were able to get funding (which was a bit of an accident), then the gods ensured Reynir and the Hotakainens were there, and also arranged the bridge to break and for the transport ship to pick them up so their path would cross Anne's church. (I believe the initial plan was for them to retrace their steps and go back over the bridge - so nowhere near Anne, no way to save the ghosts)
Reynir being inspired to invent new runes that are particularly helpful in the silent world would fit into that idea.
I agree on your idea about how closeness in the Dreamworld works. He finds Lalli first because he’s physically near, and then Onni because… Lalli and Onni’s bond makes their havens be nearby? Onni is looking for Lalli, making him draw nearer? A bit of both? It’s too bad we never see any other Icelandic mages except for the condescending teacher who doesn’t do anything.
Lalli starts following him pretty much immediately - so it is possible he was guided according to that. Lalli very much wanted to find Onni, and honestly it wouldn't surprise me if Reynir was curious about him. (Can't remember if he knows Onni is a mage at that point? Or maybe his natural interest in people made him wonder about what Tuuri's brother was like?)
Again, sticking with my idea the gods had a heavy hand in this, Reynir being able to contact Onni was vital so that could have influenced it.
As for the Denizens, it might be they are dangerous to Reynir too but he’s just oblivious enough and lucky enough at the same time that he just dances over them never knowing how near death he always is. Although, Onni doesn’t say anything about them even when Reynir drags him onto a trek over the Ocean to find Anne, so maybe the surface offers at least some protection. Similarly, nothing attacks Lalli when they are looking for Onni together.
Onni doesn't really say anything about the entire thing, but that is true. Lalli certainly doesn't seem particularly wary either time he walks with Reynir, despite what happened the first time he saw Reynir, and Onni has nothing to say on it. So it is possible that's just safer.
The fact Onni and Lalli consider it rude (instead of being utterly amazed by the impossible happening) seems to indicate that some Finnish mages can cross the Ocean to visit each other. Onni can and does fly across distance, Ensi also had a bird Luonto. I wonder if it’s more common to have a bird Luonto and be able to fly or not and be stuck like Lalli is?
Early in adventure 1, the way Onni talks it seems like they would normally be able to safely visit each other except the kade is hunting them and is too, in the dream space, close for it to be safe. It makes sense for mages to be able to visit more easily.
The characters page notes that Lalli isn't a particularly interested student - and he doesn't seem to have as much mastery of magic as Onni does - so it's possible Lalli just ignored that particular lesson of how to cross the sea safely.
This page shows Lalli with a bird sillhouette and with the sillhouette he is able to stay above water a bit better. It is possible that gets retconned and she changed her mind on his luonto. Personally I think that all Finnish mages can tap into their sielulintu (http://sssscomic.com/comic2.php?page=353) on the dream sea.
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(I believe the initial plan was for them to retrace their steps and go back over the bridge - so nowhere near Anne, no way to save the ghosts)
Correct, and even after the bridge broke, it still needed the news of a possible cure to make them go even half that way (to Odense), which Taru and Siv already considered "overextending" (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=467).
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Dreki, it’s definitely his sielulintu and a separate thing than his luonto. We see a hint of his luonto when he does the kitty bomb on the handsy moose on p 212, and the sielulintu is seen immediately before (208) and after (213). I think Minna has even confirmed this somewhere. The sielulintu is the guide or the carrier of the itse part of the soul.
On the same pages we definitely see the handsy moose reaching up through the water surface, however Lalli’s feet are in the water before this. So maybe the surface is more of a cloaking type protection, the Denizens can attack through it but they don’t usually notice things on top of the water?
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Well It has been awhile. I had trouble with the dates 😔
301-- I love the chapter covers and our first hint of Kitty (plus cat Lalli)
302-304-- Mom trying to save/protect her kitties a;ways got me going AWWW and (you can do it.) The Enf of page 404 with Lalli getting a face full of water is a giggle.
305-- I Think it is funny how Shocked Sigrun is that people *actually* read books. Though I do think Lalli can bathe himself (Though it does make for Emillalli ❤️)
306--Nice little homey scene
307-309--Poor Reynir. Love how Mikkel swaddles him to keep him still. Swaddling will make you sleeeeepy...
310-- Love the art panels. Because I did not look too closely when I read it the first time, i now try and see if there are any critters/beasts etc. hidden away. I am probably wrong, but I see what looks like a bunny On the way right side right from between the two dry spots (islands?) in the water. Though it looks like a miserable day
311-- I'm in..no subtlety here. Though I am not sure if Sigrun punched her way through or Emil fell in.
312-- Ok Emil fell (LOL). Junk building lesson
313-- School Lab/Library good choice!!
314-- DVD's/CDs Gramophone ha ha
315-- I like how Emil hears the noise first
316-- And they miss something good to eat. More candle soup.
317-- Yep candle soup
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316-- And they miss something good to eat. More candle soup.
317-- Yep candle soup
Curiosity got the better of me soI looked up if candles are edible and ultimately they can cause intestinal blockages so hopefully Mikkel isn't actually using them that much. Candles typically melt higher than human body temperature so there's a risk the wax would solidify in the body and cause issues. (paraffin only just - so a fever would melt it, but beeswax is much higher so would definitely solidify)
They do make special massage candles that have a lower melting point and would be safe but I don't think that's what these are.
https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002766.htm
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More likely tallow candles which, barring the presence of any toxic dyes or artificial colours, are as safe to eat as any animal fat. Really, a mixture of tallow and beeswax would work even better as a candle. And beeswax is edible in small amounts, being sometimes used medicinally.
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More likely tallow candles which, barring the presence of any toxic dyes or artificial colours, are as safe to eat as any animal fat. Really, a mixture of tallow and beeswax would work even better as a candle. And beeswax is edible in small amounts, being sometimes used medicinally.
Oh brilliant. In that case they are quite edible and would actually be really good in the winter since fat is good for energy and keeping warm. Good job Mikkel. 4 for you, Mikkel.
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More likely tallow candles which, barring the presence of any toxic dyes or artificial colours, are as safe to eat as any animal fat. Really, a mixture of tallow and beeswax would work even better as a candle. And beeswax is edible in small amounts, being sometimes used medicinally.
Yep!! You beat me to the punchline :)
Thank you
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Are they actually eating the candles? I thought that was a joke.
I think that Minna suggested (at a later point) that Nyuuudog is not connected to Cthulhund in any way, but I wouldn't have the slightest what else it is supposed to be.
They're both wearing the same heart on their collars. I think it has to be the same dog.
340-341 shouldn't Sigrun be on her way anyway? she must have heard the shots. -- maybe she was, though. And did she think Emil did all that shooting at a cat? I'd expect a different reaction entirely. 'That's just a cat' makes sense as a reaction to his screaming -- but not as a reaction to his trying to shoot a cat!
There's also nothing here of 'that noise will bring other beasts and trolls down on us.' She doesn't seem upset at all about the noise, even when she thinks it was unnecessary.
346, Sigrun, that's a feral cat. She's never seen a human before. Why on earth would she come down to you?
-- I suppose Sigrun's thinking the same way as the commenters who thought it was Mama Cat who the team might adopt?
I'm also confused (and was the first time) about the kittens. We first see Mama Cat moving kittens; she moves at least two. It's already raining, and very wet. It makes sense if she's moving them to a dry location. It makes no sense whatsoever for her to be moving them to a wet location where they're going to drown. Were there two other kittens out there somewhere, in a nice dry spot, but doomed to starve to death? They're too young to survive on their own. (And that would be a very large litter for a feral; they're usually not eating that well.) Did Mama Cat somehow misjudge what places would be flooded? There doesn't seem to have been time enough for their new nest to have flooded that badly while she was trying to escape the dog, if it was nice and dry when she put them there -- there's no sign that a full scale flash flood is happening.
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Are they actually eating the candles? I thought that was a joke.
If they are tallow candles - tallow is a valid cooking ingredient. It's just fallen out of favor now. It'd be like if they were made of butter or coconut oil. Again, just dumping extra oil into a soup will leave it kind of unpleasant if you're not used to eating that way, but fully edible and very valuable for surviving a winter mission.
Here's a recipe for edible tallow candles (https://coastpacking.com/recipes/garlic-infused-edible-tallow-candles/) that I stumbled on which I think is neat. @Róisín I think you'd like to see the recipe? It's garlic & herb infused tallow.
They're both wearing the same heart on their collars. I think it has to be the same dog.
Agreed. If Minna claims they aren't - this is one reason I don't put "word of god" above "what's actually shown in the canon".
340-341 shouldn't Sigrun be on her way anyway? she must have heard the shots. -- maybe she was, though. And did she think Emil did all that shooting at a cat? I'd expect a different reaction entirely. 'That's just a cat' makes sense as a reaction to his screaming -- but not as a reaction to his trying to shoot a cat!
I think this is a reflection of how the team has read Emil's past reactions. Like his being grossed out to the dead thing and freaking out over the dead bodies. (which is reasonable whne you've never seen them before) To most of us, who've never been troll hunting, I think we understand where he's coming from and can still see yes he sees the diference between a cat and a danger - but I also can imagine that at this point Sigrun totally believes Emil ran away from the cat.
As for the gun shots - agreed. There's a certain amount of artistic license for good pacing and story telling, though. It would have wasted time and panels for Sigrun to help him. And also would have denied him the scene later when he kills the dog, which I think was important for him to do himself. So I'd say we can forgive the plot hole.
There's also nothing here of 'that noise will bring other beasts and trolls down on us.' She doesn't seem upset at all about the noise, even when she thinks it was unnecessary.
That rule was specifically for a solid building that likely had trolls in it, and in a cramped city street with lots of shadows. I don't think it was a blanket statement.
This is a crap building so there's no fear of trolls nests, and likely few trolls, within the building itself. It also looked like, when they entered, the outside was really bright and there's probably not a safe place for trolls to hide nearby. So maybe she's relying on all that to trust they won't be attacked.
Also the rules can be suuuppeerrrr plot convenient.
(Or maybe Emil just has a really good silencer on his gun? I don't know how silencers work)
346, Sigrun, that's a feral cat. She's never seen a human before. Why on earth would she come down to you?
-- I suppose Sigrun's thinking the same way as the commenters who thought it was Mama Cat who the team might adopt?
Tbf domestic cats act like this. Given Sigrun's personality, I imagine non-military cats often tend to hiss and run away from her so she may just be used to it. Cats are super useful so yeah I totally get seeing a cat and being like "hey let's take it home"
I'm also confused (and was the first time) about the kittens. We first see Mama Cat moving kittens; she moves at least two. It's already raining, and very wet. It makes sense if she's moving them to a dry location. It makes no sense whatsoever for her to be moving them to a wet location where they're going to drown. Were there two other kittens out there somewhere, in a nice dry spot, but doomed to starve to death? They're too young to survive on their own. (And that would be a very large litter for a feral; they're usually not eating that well.) Did Mama Cat somehow misjudge what places would be flooded? There doesn't seem to have been time enough for their new nest to have flooded that badly while she was trying to escape the dog, if it was nice and dry when she put them there -- there's no sign that a full scale flash flood is happening.
Agreed... That felt weird to me as well...
Again I think a degree of it is the storytelling, putting something in that doesn't necessarily make sense but communicates the emotions/situation/narrative in a condensed way, but I think there would've been a better way to establish the narrative. Honestly the mama cat trying to move them and being blocked would've worked better IMO.
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Dreki, that is an odd way to eat a tallow candle, but funny. Have you encountered slush lamps? Some of the old miners out on the FNQ gemfields used to make them. They would save the drippings from foods such as lamb chops and bacon and pour that into a jam tin, stick a wick in, and use it for a light in camp. It smelled vile and gave a dim flickery light, but better than nothing.
When I was a kid on a farm my gran used to save all the fat residue from cooked meats, plus lumps of fat that had been trimmed from meats during butchering and preparation, and render them down for the fat, which was then used for cooking and lubrication. She was very fussy about the process, and used to start the fat in a large pot of cold water, which would be very slowly heated on the woodstove. The process can’t be hurried or you will have a mixture of water and fat spurting everywhere and probably catching fire. The fat slowly separates out and floats on top of the water. Once this has happened you put the pot somewhere cold until the fat layer solidifies. At the bottom of the fat layer there will be a layer of residue - skin, meat scraps, hairs, dirt. This is scraped off and discarded, the water goes into the compost or the pig swill, and if need be you can repeat the process so the remaining fat is perfectly clean. It can then be used to fry food, or as shortening in pastry, or just spread on bread - bread and dripping was a treat on freezing winter mornings.
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I can see rye crisps and the solidified tallow as a common meal for the team.
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I can see rye crisps and the solidified tallow as a common meal for the team.
Definitely. Iirc pemmican is fat mixed with a bit of meat, and it stores very well, I can see that being made whenever meat is available as well just for some variety and a bit of extra nourishment.
They were always shown eating soups and I'm not sure how realistic that is. Although it is a fairly easy option to cook and I imagine he'd melt the snow in as well to avoid wasting water.
I looked up finnish recipes once and there were a lot of soups/stews so it also might reflect that heritage. (Again soup/stew does make a lot of sense)
Dreki, that is an odd way to eat a tallow candle, but funny.
That's what I thought as well. Seems like an interesting way to season a dish.
Have you encountered slush lamps? Some of the old miners out on the FNQ gemfields used to make them. They would save the drippings from foods such as lamb chops and bacon and pour that into a jam tin, stick a wick in, and use it for a light in camp. It smelled vile and gave a dim flickery light, but better than nothing.
No I've never heard of that before and before you mentioned tallow candles it never registered that culinary oils could be used as a source of light. (In hindsight it makes sense)
When I was a kid on a farm my gran used to save all the fat residue from cooked meats, plus lumps of fat that had been trimmed from meats during butchering and preparation, and render them down for the fat, which was then used for cooking and lubrication. She was very fussy about the process, and used to start the fat in a large pot of cold water, which would be very slowly heated on the woodstove. The process can’t be hurried or you will have a mixture of water and fat spurting everywhere and probably catching fire. The fat slowly separates out and floats on top of the water. Once this has happened you put the pot somewhere cold until the fat layer solidifies. At the bottom of the fat layer there will be a layer of residue - skin, meat scraps, hairs, dirt. This is scraped off and discarded, the water goes into the compost or the pig swill, and if need be you can repeat the process so the remaining fat is perfectly clean. It can then be used to fry food, or as shortening in pastry, or just spread on bread - bread and dripping was a treat on freezing winter mornings.
I've rendered fat in the past as well. We don't have enough foods that produce it to have it, though, for awhile I made myself stock from beef bones and would render the fat from that, but the smell makes my partner ill so I stick to chicken stock and just keep the fat in with it.
We have a big pork loin in the freezer so may have enough fat from that to render.
I can imagine Mikkel doing this depending on what game they bring in, to Emil's disgust of course.
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I knew that candles could be made from more than just wax but this was all more than I knew before and was a joy to learn about.
For the somewhat earlier discussion on Reynir and Dreamworld, I was going to talk about this when I got there, but I am glad other people were bothered by this too.
When we see Reynir in the Dreamworld for the second time, why does he wake up where he does? And this ends up being the first time ever that Reynir remembers his dreams, and even then his memory had to be jogged, and then he has no problem remembering dreams after that.
This may be both the only plot point and the only piece of world-building that truly bothers me.
I don’t mind the Dreamworld being largely unexplained but everything about Reynir learning he’s a mage is deeply contrived.
It could have been something Minna planned to do more with and thus it would have made sense later, but the end result is the same.
As for Dreamworld speculation, Onni said Icelandic mages are mostly defenseless, and I don’t think we ever see a barrier as we do for Finnish mages so they may not even have one. My own headcanon is that Icelandic mages’ heavens are hidden well so all the monsters in Dreamworld rarely fine them. It is just headcanon, but you could run with that idea and say that Icelandic mages are hard for Dreamworld monsters to detect.
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They were always shown eating soups and I'm not sure how realistic that is. Although it is a fairly easy option to cook and I imagine he'd melt the snow in as well to avoid wasting water.
I looked up finnish recipes once and there were a lot of soups/stews so it also might reflect that heritage. (Again soup/stew does make a lot of sense)
Soups are not merely easy; they're the go-to option for when you have limited supplies. There's a reason "soup kitchens" mean the aftermath of a disaster.
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What LooNEY said is certainly true, and a childhood spent on subsistence farms certainly taught me a lot of ways to make them. The method is also useful for times when food has to be stretched to feed an uncertain number of people for an undefined period of time. Also as a way to use up leftovers and keep things from going off as quickly if you don’t have refrigeration. You can butcher an animal, quickly use the tender parts that can be cooked straight away, and then slowly stew the bits that are tougher or bony. Plus meat can be dried, fat can be rendered, and meat/fat combinations such as pemmican last quite a long time. I like pemmican made with the addition of dried fruits and seeds.
And soups/stews don’t have to taste bad. Family and friends often ask me to make a vegetable soup, which I make with a blend of soaked dried beans, lentils and barley, soaked overnight, rinsed and then slowly stewed in fresh water. It is always wise to soak beans and grains overnight before cooking, both to remove potentially harmful chemicals and to soften them and make cooking easier and quicker, which also saves fuel. When the beans are cooked soft I add salt and a mixture of chopped vegetables: onion, carrot, salsify, parsnips, celery, whatever I have, and serve it with chopped fresh herbs and lots of bread. You can use stock instead of water to make an even richer and tastier soup.
The ‘’bacon and beans’ which was a staple food of the American West was made by a similar process of soaking and slow cooking using pinto beans, or Navy beans, though any bean or grain will serve.
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I'll second Róisín there!
Growing up my brothers and I ate quite a lot of food and my mother is quite economical so we grew up on a lot of big-pot stews and braises, especially in winter, often made in my mum's cast iron pot. One that we'd have fairly often was my mum's version of a Cantonese braised beef stew with chunks of cheap stewing cuts of beef as well as plenty of vegetables. She'd also use assorted leftover meats to make a soup with pearl barley and lentils and bits of vegetables and tomato paste. I think it's always good to have recipes that can use up leftovers or things that are lying around in your fridge/pantry - stops you from wasting food and helps save you money.
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When we see Reynir in the Dreamworld for the second time, why does he wake up where he does? And this ends up being the first time ever that Reynir remembers his dreams, and even then his memory had to be jogged, and then he has no problem remembering dreams after that.
IIRC he wakes up in his own haven, right?
My interpretation is that the boat he woke up on is the one that takes new mages to the dreamsea. Which is why it makes no sense he was running around it when Lalli first saw him.
So now that he's been taken to the dreamsea by the ship, he automatically wakes up in his haven since it's safe.
This may be both the only plot point and the only piece of world-building that truly bothers me.
I don’t mind the Dreamworld being largely unexplained but everything about Reynir learning he’s a mage is deeply contrived.
The dreamworld seems to just be "plot convenient try not to think too hard". Which yeah isn't great.
It really, really, really, really, re-he-he-eallly bothers me that Reynir's mage training gave him zero new info about the dreamworld. Considering how dangerous it is and that, even safely in Bruardalur, he's able to venture out into areas that aren't safe.
A kade in Iceland could be absolutely devastating. You'd think dreamworld safety would be drilled into them!
It could have been something Minna planned to do more with and thus it would have made sense later, but the end result is the same.
As for Dreamworld speculation, Onni said Icelandic mages are mostly defenseless, and I don’t think we ever see a barrier as we do for Finnish mages so they may not even have one. My own headcanon is that Icelandic mages’ heavens are hidden well so all the monsters in Dreamworld rarely fine them. It is just headcanon, but you could run with that idea and say that Icelandic mages are hard for Dreamworld monsters to detect.
Years ago, Minna posted a screenshot of her plan notes that she thought was illegible. Someone managed to transcribe it and shared it here - https://docs.google.com/document/d/196jjo_aY4TzD9qIMsY2TjVuD6Kpz_fH29uduQC4t9iQ/edit?ouid=114656680487209798637&usp=docs_home&ths=true (https://docs.google.com/document/d/196jjo_aY4TzD9qIMsY2TjVuD6Kpz_fH29uduQC4t9iQ/edit?ouid=114656680487209798637&usp=docs_home&ths=true)
It does indicate Reynir should have showed off more powers, but I don't think there's any indication he'd be more dreamsea savvy.
My big question about the dreamworld is how it impacts mages. If they do too much at night do they end up tired during the day? When we first saw Lalli in it it looked like he was sleeping - do mages need to sleep within their haven? Do mages ever have normal dreams?
Plus meat can be dried, fat can be rendered, and meat/fat combinations such as pemmican last quite a long time. I like pemmican made with the addition of dried fruits and seeds.
The lack of this kind of dried food is mostly what bothers me - not the prevalance of stews on its own. I can imagine 90-95% of what they eat being soups/stews/porridges, but there'd be a little bit of other things.
And soups/stews don’t have to taste bad.
This. Most of what we eat is a variation of this for the reasons listed. We've got an immersion blender so we can throw a large variety of vegetables in without our texture-sensitive kids complaining, too. The remarks towards Mikkel's cooking always grated on me a little bit. Like especially when Reynir found decade old canned tuna better.
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I think Minna may not have had a great amount of knowledge about either subsistence farm cooking and household economics, nor about real-world provisioning of expeditions. For a young person without that experience, (because Minna is so brilliant we tend to forget her youth), I don’t think she did too badly. My youngest son, another person who became independent early because of his brilliance at art and music, and grew up to be a farmer and landscape designer whose farm was largely funded by his art and music, used to be horrified by the inexperience at dealing with the practicalities of life of his friends from art school! Then, I was a subsistence-farm kid who tried to teach my kids everything I knew, and all of them spent a lot of their childhoods in the Australian Outback, so they grew up knowing a lot of this stuff.
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My big question about the dreamworld is how it impacts mages. If they do too much at night do they end up tired during the day? When we first saw Lalli in it it looked like he was sleeping - do mages need to sleep within their haven? Do mages ever have normal dreams?
I know we see Lalli having normal dreams, but I think we only see Reynir have 1 or 2 visions without any normal dreams nor do we see him sleep in his haven. I think we see Onni rest in his at least once.
My headcanon is that Finnish mages can have normal dreams when they sleep in their havens or when they are very tired they might bypass waking in the Dreamworld to normal dreams (with shared dreams working a bit differently) and that Icelandic mages do not have normal dreams, just Dreamworld, or visions, or dreamless sleep (while still being in the Dreamworld).
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I know we see Lalli having normal dreams, but I think we only see Reynir have 1 or 2 visions without any normal dreams nor do we see him sleep in his haven. I think we see Onni rest in his at least once.
My headcanon is that Finnish mages can have normal dreams when they sleep in their havens or when they are very tired they might bypass waking in the Dreamworld to normal dreams (with shared dreams working a bit differently) and that Icelandic mages do not have normal dreams, just Dreamworld, or visions, or dreamless sleep (while still being in the Dreamworld).
This does seem to be the case. If so you'd think children having no dreams would be a big sign of them being mages. I still wonder how Icelanders are recognized as being mages, since they likely can't hear the voices from the silent world from being too far away.
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Do Icelandic mages hear the voices? We are told that Finnish mages do, and we see Emil struggle with it when Lalli is in his head but doesn't Reynir only hear Sleipnope?
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I think prophetic dreams were traditionally one of the markers of being an Icelandic mage.
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Do Icelandic mages hear the voices? We are told that Finnish mages do, and we see Emil struggle with it when Lalli is in his head but doesn't Reynir only hear Sleipnope?
It's all hard to tell.
Reynir immediately takes a mental health nose dive when he gets in the silent world which could be troll impact and could also be a reasonable response to the circumstances.
Then he hears them enough to know they'll hunt him down so he feels like he can't go home but doesn't the way Emil does with Lalli in his head. So maybe they have to be close/strong for Reynir to pick it up?
Plus we don't know how fast that develops. Lalli had actively been a mage for over a decade - potentially if Reynir stayed near the silent world for longer his sensitivity would have increased? I imagine if all Finnish mages are hit as hard as Emil is as the first sign of magedom the casualty rate would be staggering - I know Lalli says they don't last long, but that seems excessive.
It's really confusing. Reynir mentions that the ghosts he saw aren't like the spirits he saw at home. (Iirc he tells kitty?) But what he says to Onni implies he doesn't see spirits.
I'm hesitant to assume Reynir is an accurate representation of norse mage abilities since he's a baby mage and seems to be god touched - Lalli and Onni have very different levels shown and that's after over a decade experience for both of them.
Overall I'm going to say that Minna had experience in and was passionate about Finnish folk magic but did not put much thought into norse magic so ultimately it runs by plot convenience.
I think prophetic dreams were traditionally one of the markers of being an Icelandic mage.
Iirc I think she said "visions" and Reynir had visions in his dreams but potentially a mage could have them while awake. In real history many shamanic practices include channeling visions, and also having them come in dreams, so I think it's possible Reynir could learn how to intentionally channel them.
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It's really confusing. Reynir mentions that the ghosts he saw aren't like the spirits he saw at home. (Iirc he tells kitty?) But what he says to Onni implies he doesn't see spirits.
On page 87, the Icelandic and Finnish mages' info page, we see the prophetic visions of Icelandic mages contrasted with the Finnish mage's ability to see spirits.
I could not find the page where Onni and Reynir speak through the radio, but I distinctly remember their conversation being about the spirits of nature, not the ghosts of the dead. So IIRC, Reynir can see ghosts but not (nature) spirits.
I think SSSS only uses spirits as a term for the spirits of nature, but spirits are also a synonym for ghosts, so the confusion is understandable.
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I could not find the page where Onni and Reynir speak through the radio, but I distinctly remember their conversation being about the spirits of nature, not the ghosts of the dead. So IIRC, Reynir can see ghosts but not (nature) spirits.
Ayup (http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=525).
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And those nature spirits were in three levels: Ylinen (Above) Keskinen (middle) and Alinen (Below). Basically, everywhere. Waterbirds have access to all of them -- such as a swan.
This also makes a presence in the language. Korkeus (height) and syvyys (depth) are both contrasted to matala that is simply close to the ground level, never mind which direction you compare it to.
The spirits themselves can of course decide to show themselves anytime they wish. They probably don't usually bother with any non-Finns.
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Traditionally Nordic magic had several ways of inducing visions, both waking and in dreams. These could involve carving runes, chants, dance, herbal preparations or as in Celtic magic the use of some or all of these practices in combination with prolonged isolation in a sacred place. Consider the example of Odin ‘hung nine nights on the windy tree, sacrificed to Odin, an offering of myself to myself’ in his quest for the runes. Even with the aid of the sacred mead this was obviously a hard and harrowing process. ‘The runes were before me, I reached down and took them. Screaming I took them. Then I fell back.’ Presumably fell back into his body. Sounds like a weird fusion of the bull-feast ordeal and the Light of Foresight rite of Celtic magic.
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Traditionally Nordic magic had several ways of inducing visions, both waking and in dreams. These could involve carving runes, chants, dance, herbal preparations or as in Celtic magic the use of some or all of these practices in combination with prolonged isolation in a sacred place. Consider the example of Odin ‘hung nine nights on the windy tree, sacrificed to Odin, an offering of myself to myself’ in his quest for the runes. Even with the aid of the sacred mead this was obviously a hard and harrowing process. ‘The runes were before me, I reached down and took them. Screaming I took them. Then I fell back.’ Presumably fell back into his body. Sounds like a weird fusion of the bull-feast ordeal and the Light of Foresight rite of Celtic magic.
The "offering of myself to myself" concept is fascinating to me. Where are those passages from? Come to think of it, I've never read any original sources for the Norse myths.
This is perhaps a conversation for another thread, but some of my favourite books, Monica Furlong's Doran trilogy, feature a scene where the main character has a vision induced through exactly the methods you describe (herbs, dance, etc). I believe she was drawing from the Celtic for that as the book is set in the British Isles. You may enjoy her books (the only fiction she wrote); they're lovely, not too long, and feature some interesting (and I believe historically accurate; she was a medieval historian) interplay between the pagan practices of the main cast and Christian influence in their village.
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Athena, I don’t know Monica Furlong’s fiction at all, but sounds fascinating! Have only encountered her work as a journalist/activist.
And I think the quote about Odin might have been from something I read in the Poetic Edda. But that was decades ago so don’t recall the details.
I have used the Light of Foresight myself as part of Druidic training, and my cousin did one of the heavier rites that involved standing overnight up to the neck in a river, both with useful results but not for the faint-hearted.
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In Siberian shamanism, including the Sami at least in Finland, the amanita mushroom fly agaric (the iconic mushroom with a red cap with white spots) has been used for shamanic and other purposes for its hallucinogenic properties. Eaten as is it is too toxic, lethal in larger quantities, but it has been used processed in specific ways, including processed through the kidneys i.e. by drinking urine of a person or animal that has eaten it.
Do not test it. It’s lethal. You are not a Siberian shaman and do not know how to render it non-lethal! Besides it’s toxic even in the used form, just hopefully not enough to kill the user.
If you ARE a Siberian shaman, go ahead if you feel like it, but don’t give any specific instructions here.
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Not a good thing to mess with, most unsafe! One of the things I do in real life is teach wild food foraging, and fly agaric is one of those that I stringently warn people against even touching, never mind eating! Death cap, fly agaric and ghost mushroom are the three most dangerous mushrooms in our forests around here.
And even Siberian shamans are cautious with Amanita. They have lengthy and complex preparations and even then it isn’t safe. There is a reason why the shamanic ‘threshold experience’ has potential kill. Not something ordinary folk should chance. Interestingly, it even turns up in the Vedic magic of India. In that context the preferred way to use it is also by drinking the urine of a primary consumer, which filters out the most poisonous components. I believe the Sami use reindeer for that. The Vedics use a specially trained priest. Not something I would care for myself, I would rather just sit in the forest with the mushroom.
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And even Siberian shamans are cautious with Amanita. They have lengthy and complex preparations and even then it isn’t safe. There is a reason why the shamanic ‘threshold experience’ has potential kill. Not something ordinary folk should chance.
... I'll wait for the NASA version (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/space-travels-most-surprising-future-ingredient-mushrooms/), then. :emil:
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Yes! That! What a wonderful idea. I would like to see similar research projects applied to lichens. You might find it interesting to read up on the development of an ecosystem on Surtsey, a volcanic island that emerged from the sea in relatively recent times, and now supports a small but growing ecology. It started as a lump of cooling lava in the middle of a cold, wild ocean, and now has life. As is usually the case, the lichens were first in and created a substrate on which everything else could grow. Lichens would be wonderful as a terraforming tool for marginal planets, and they have so many uses! Food for humans and animals, dyes, medicine…….
And yes, I have used the idea in a fic. Some of you might have read my unfinished story ‘An Historical Document’ which I wrote in response to a prompt from LooNEY_DAC. In that story, set in the far future of the Minnaverse, Emil’s remote descendant, namesake and reincarnation comes from one of the families that first colonised Mars, where they have a huge and profitable lichen farm.
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Yes! That! What a wonderful idea. I would like to see similar research projects applied to lichens. You might find it interesting to read up on the development of an ecosystem on Surtsey, a volcanic island that emerged from the sea in relatively recent times, and now supports a small but growing ecology. It started as a lump of cooling lava in the middle of a cold, wild ocean, and now has life. As is usually the case, the lichens were first in and created a substrate on which everything else could grow. Lichens would be wonderful as a terraforming tool for marginal planets, and they have so many uses!
Color me an optimist, but I would like to think that a planet that looks anywhere near Surtsey - i.e., surface water, Earth-like temperatures, a sun providing the energy for that and an ecosystem-to-be, an atmosphere already carrying some of said energy (in the shape of easy-to-breathe oxygen) to the land, and most of that for nothing less than the last couple Ga (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year#SI_prefix_multipliers) - would not need terraforming but rather something the PPO (https://sma.nasa.gov/sma-disciplines/planetary-protection) would like to think some more about. XoX
A planet that still needs to have its oxygen broken out of whatever molecules it's "stored" in, possibly forming new atmospheric layers to alter the temperatures of those below, now that's terraforming! (And about as far beyond our current reach as any extrasolar planets we might want to apply it to, of course.)
(I "watched" The Titan (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4986098/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0) a couple days ago. Dear script writer, the temperature on Titan is almost 200 K below Earth's. It doesn't matter whether your genetically engineered transhumans meant to skinny-walk (and skinny-soar) on that moon stop feeling the cold, it's about avoiding that the very materials their bodies consist of turn rock solid!)
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It's my understanding (which may be incorrect) that current thinking is that planets won't have significant amounts of free oxygen unless they've already got life; that the free oxygen in Earth's atmosphere was produced by cyanobacteria via photosynthesis; and that there would need to be something photosynthesizing to produce it elsewhere.
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It's my understanding (which may be incorrect) that current thinking is that planets won't have significant amounts of free oxygen unless they've already got life; that the free oxygen in Earth's atmosphere was produced by cyanobacteria via photosynthesis; and that there would need to be something photosynthesizing to produce it elsewhere.
Dunno who exactly started it here on Earth, and there are geological mechanisms able to release some oxygen, I'm told, but yes, we don't know of any way to maintain a noteworthy amount of oxygen in a planet's atmosphere short of an up-and-running ecosystem constantly replenishing it.
Well, short of that planet being a gas giant made of only oxygen and noble gasses, maybe. In particular, no hydrogen (BOOOOOOM). Frankly, I'd rather bet on us finding a dodecahedron-shaped one. ;)
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Dunno who exactly started it here on Earth, and there are geological mechanisms able to release some oxygen, I'm told, but yes, we don't know of any way to maintain a noteworthy amount of oxygen in a planet's atmosphere short of an up-and-running ecosystem constantly replenishing it.
Well, short of that planet being a gas giant made of only oxygen and noble gasses, maybe. In particular, no hydrogen (BOOOOOOM). Frankly, I'd rather bet on us finding a dodecahedron-shaped one. ;)
...And the problem there is that it would have to be voiced by Mel Blanc, instead of Kurt Russell, not that any of you'll get both of those references.
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Please do explain the references! Knowing you it is likely to be funny.
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Please do explain the references! Knowing you it is likely to be funny.
Frankly, I'd rather bet on us finding a dodecahedron-shaped one. ;)
In Guardians of the Galaxy II, Kurt Russell (still alive and working) played Ego, the Living Planet. In the Chuck Jones-directed animated version of the Phantom Tollbooth, the late (so unavailable) Mel Blanc voiced the character of the Dodecahedron.
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277 - 287
Page 278, so do people have any theories on what was wrong with the radio? Or did I just miss something obvious?
Same page (278), third panel. I think I have seen eye shadow edits to this and other images, but I think the eye shading often looks a bit like eye shadow already. If I recall correctly, this got more distracting for me as A1 wanted on. Though I don’t recall having this problem in A2.
Page 280, easy to miss, and I forget if it come up earlier, but Tuuri brought the pot with a hole in it because she just grabbed things without much thought while packing, and the candle crate was given to them in a mix-up caused by Emil throwing the tank mirror blindly after he accidentally broke it.
Page 283, in the last panel, Sigrun talks about the idea of surviving off the land, “Like dirt and stuff.” Sigrun knows about hunting uninfected animals, and it does not read to me like she’s telling a joke here.
Page 284, I completely forgot that Sigrun did not know how binoculars worked. I am just going to take this as a throw-away gag because nothing about that really makes sense. (She would have noticed. Why wouldn't anyone say anything?)
Page 286-287, Reynir is here, and our team is complete!
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LooNEY, thanks for the explanation!
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277 - 287
Page 278, so do people have any theories on what was wrong with the radio? Or did I just miss something obvious?
On pg 228, Mikkel tries to send a message and is drowned out by the Black Noise, which we suspect is made by trolls (or ghosts). The translation of Lalli's runos on pg 278 tell of him first asking nicely, then threatening the spirits involved, capped off with the TUM!! and clear airwaves. Lalli exorcised whatever was making the Black Noise.
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Already back in the train we see the intercom(?) radio(??) system getting hit by black speech when trolls are close.
But whether it’s caused the flesh and goo trolls, the remnants of spirit within the flesh and goo trolls, or something more spiritual that hangs out in the Silent World, perhaps close to trolls in particular, we don’t really know.
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Small comment: Sigrun's 'dirt and stuff' comment makes sense to me.
It's not exactly a joke, but she tends to be flippant and exaggerate a lot, even (especially) where matters of survival are concerned. I see this as a morale-boosting move -- if she creates the impression that things are not serious, or even amusing, then the others are less likely to panic. (But that's just my interpretation, of course!) And of course she knows about hunting and fishing, but I suspect that finding clean animals is not always easy, and sometimes you'll be stuck eating roots and leaves for some days. That's pretty much dirt and stuff.
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I agree with tehta - Sigrun must know basic survival skills or she wouldn’t be in the military. And she can be flippant especially when trying to keep up the morale of her team. I would expect foraging in the environment depicted to be difficult but possible, and Mikkel and Reynir at least are farm kids and Lalli is a scout from an environment of lakes and forests, so I would expect them to know at least the basics. Obviously the Minnaverse is the author’s creation so we can’t know the conditions with certainty, but I do have enough experience with our-world foraging and survival skills to work out things they might try. If any of you know my fanfic stories (I am Tanist on Archive of Our Own) you may have noticed that I often include such information in my tales.
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If you ARE a Siberian shaman, go ahead if you feel like it, but don’t give any specific instructions here.
Hopefully a Siberian shaman has been trained in how to do it correctly, should the need arise. I like learning to forage plants but I do not touch mushrooms. I just absolutely don't trust myself to identify them correctly. I'm aware there are plants that can kill you viciously if you ingest them - but, well, it's a lot easier for me to identify raspberries than different mushrooms.
On pg 228, Mikkel tries to send a message and is drowned out by the Black Noise, which we suspect is made by trolls (or ghosts). The translation of Lalli's runos on pg 278 tell of him first asking nicely, then threatening the spirits involved, capped off with the TUM!! and clear airwaves. Lalli exorcised whatever was making the Black Noise.
This is my assumption as well. It brings up interesting possibilities for unknown colonies that just can't get radio signals out.
It's not exactly a joke, but she tends to be flippant and exaggerate a lot, even (especially) where matters of survival are concerned. I see this as a morale-boosting move -- if she creates the impression that things are not serious, or even amusing, then the others are less likely to panic. (But that's just my interpretation, of course!) And of course she knows about hunting and fishing, but I suspect that finding clean animals is not always easy, and sometimes you'll be stuck eating roots and leaves for some days. That's pretty much dirt and stuff.
Humor is a common coping mechanism. I don't know how much of it is intentional - but ultimately the end result is the same. She also grew up in the military so loads of stuff are things she's grown up hearing about in a matter of fact way when people outside the military tend to hear about it as scary stories.
There's an episode of Firefly where two characters are being tortured - the war-hardened captain and the decidedly softer pilot (who objectively had no business being there and twisted the captain's arm). The pilot is not trained to withstand torture so the captain ends up basically ignoring their torturer to continue an argument they'd had before because getting the pilot pissed at him helped give him something to focus on so he could keep his head.
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On reflection, Sigrun telling a joke does make the most sense. I just don’t recall her having a dry sense of humor, and when she joked with/about Mikkel earlier in the comic, it was blatantly delivered (once even with a wink and a nudge). I guess there is no reason she can’t ever deadpan even if that is not her usual style.
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Hopefully a Siberian shaman has been trained in how to do it correctly, should the need arise. I like learning to forage plants but I do not touch mushrooms. I just absolutely don't trust myself to identify them correctly. I'm aware there are plants that can kill you viciously if you ingest them - but, well, it's a lot easier for me to identify raspberries than different mushrooms.
Dreki, my point exactly. They know. We don’t know. There was a little about the preparation method in my source material and I almost put the description here because I know there are people here who are interested, as well as sensible enough to not actually try it.
But then I remembered that there are others who just read, and whose potential level of sensible is unknown to us. So, better err on the side of caution than inadvertently get someone poisoned because they think the little description is all that is needed. Or at least ”well, how bad could it be? Let’s taste anyways.” Perhaps I’m overly cautious?
Also the Forum is pg-13 and something that could be interpreted as instructions on how to prepare mushrooms to travel to an altered state of consciousness might be not the cleverest idea :)
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Which is why I also did not share that information. I learned it from a Nordic rather than a Siberian source, but I expect the techniques are similar. There will always be those foolish enough to just do random stuff they read about on the internet.
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I don't see what Sigrun says as a deadpan joke, but as humorous exaggeration, which I remember her using a lot. (Although it's possible that she's often unaware that she's being humorous?)
IIRC, she also refers to carrots as "garbage food". Referring to foraged meals as "dirt" doesn't sound so different to me.
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I don't see what Sigrun says as a deadpan joke, but as humorous exaggeration, which I remember her using a lot. (Although it's possible that she's often unaware that she's being humorous?)
IIRC, she also refers to carrots as "garbage food". Referring to foraged meals as "dirt" doesn't sound so different to me.
Maybe Minna did not like veggies?
Though the tops and peelings could go in compost or you can make soup from the peelings (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SsqkrPNIeQ)
That could be why Sigrun thinks dirt
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One of the things I missed or really did not understand on page 333.
When Onni says it is looks for us again. Little did I know that a hint for what would have been Adventure II. It now makes me think the KADE has been hunting them.
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I think that is what it means.
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The Kade is "it." That fact is just not clear on first reading. This becomes clearer in A2.
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The Kade is "it." That fact is just not clear on first reading. This becomes clearer in A2.
yeppers!!
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288 - 301
Page 288, to be fair, Emil is not technically wrong in calling Reynir a prisoner. Sigrun is in charge and she said he was, so even if Emil understood Mikkel, he would still not be wrong.
Page 288, again. It’s likely that Sigrun is still having trouble understanding Mikkel, but I don’t think she would act any differently here if she understood him clearly.
Page 288, but for the last time. Lalli seems to be suspicious of Reynir, which is fair. Lalli saw Reynir in the Dreamworld (where he tried to get Reynir’s attention and was not at all hostile to Reynir), and now Reynir just showed up out of a crate. I wonder if Lalli thinks that Reynir followed him or something.
Page 290, Emil says he would not have acted that way if he know that Reynir was not a prisoner. Though I would assume if he had understood Mikkel he would have still lessened to Sigrun, he likely would have done it differently. Anyway, Emil saying, “We’re mortal enemies, now!” is interesting because later Emil seems to not like Reynir all the much, whereas at worst, Reynir seems neutral to him. I don’t remember how Emil’s and Reynir’s relationship developed, but I do recall thinking that Emil’s problem with Reynir was that Lalli had a problem with Reynir. Maybe Emil thinking that Reynir hates him now was also a factor.
Pages 292-297. Okay, time to talk Reynir. So when we meet Reynir had this romanticized idea of travel that he got from his sibling's stories, even the ones from Bjarni who learned what death looks like. While his siblings had tales about the Silent World, Reynir just wanted to see a foreign county, not do anything truly risky, only for him to stumble himself into the Silent World. Great start to a character arc (one that does not really pay off but anyway)!
We also learn that Reynir’s parents lied to him about the ban on non-immune people traveling, with marks the first instance of us seeing his parents being abusive. Now, it seems the idea that Reynir’s parents are abusive is contentious and/or missed by a lot of people, but their lie and Reynir's behavior (leaving them a letter before sneaking off into the night just to avoid confrontation with them) are indications of abuse. I recall there being other evidence in A1, but this fact is explicit in A2 when Reynir reunites with his parents. (I don’t think Minna realized that this is what she wrote, but anyway!)
On page 298, Mikkel says he is “-capable of working around situations such as these.” Before that line, I thought that Mikkel was just adaptable, but now I wonder what situation or situations he has had that were similar to this one. This seems like it would be a really odd case but apparently, it may not be that weird. With is itself, very weird.
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One of the things I missed or really did not understand on page 333.
When Onni says it is looks for us again. Little did I know that a hint for what would have been Adventure II. It now makes me think the KADE has been hunting them.
Yeah 'It' is almsot certainly the Kade which suggests this is why Onni went on his suicide mission. It's not that there was some nebulous thing out there with his grandmother that potentially could cause problems to people who wander into the silent world - it's that Lalli is actively being hunted by it, and defeating it is vital to Lalli's continued well-being.
(Onni is also being hunted but 1. is more experienced and able to defend himself; 2. is basically canonically suicidal in Adv 2 so his own welfare isn't much of a concern)
288 - 301
Page 288, to be fair, Emil is not technically wrong in calling Reynir a prisoner. Sigrun is in charge and she said he was, so even if Emil understood Mikkel, he would still not be wrong.
I'd argue he's right in a sense. While it isn't malicious, it's entirely done for his own well-being, the reality is that Reynir is not free right now. He's not free to leave the tank without permission. He's not free to leave or explore. Tuuri signed up for this - but Reynir fell into it and I do think he could be considered a prisoner in the sense of someone who has been captured and trapped.
And I would personally argue his actions were almost certainly criminal. Stowing away is treated pretty seriously. I headcanon that if he'd been successful, and been caught trying to sneak into Bornholm and avoid the quarantine and proper documentation, he would've been in loads of legal trouble.
Anyway, Emil saying, “We’re mortal enemies, now!” is interesting because later Emil seems to not like Reynir all the much, whereas at worst, Reynir seems neutral to him. I don’t remember how Emil’s and Reynir’s relationship developed, but I do recall thinking that Emil’s problem with Reynir was that Lalli had a problem with Reynir. Maybe Emil thinking that Reynir hates him now was also a factor.
I can imagine Emil being very sensitive to rejection. Since it's impossible for them to talk it out and clear the air, it makes sense to me that he'd just assume Reynir hates him and respond by being gruff and closing off to him.
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P 346-354 about cats
We haven’t seen cats for a while but here are several now. Very sad cats :( The mother cat uses her final spark to hilariously battle Sigrun, and I love the way Sigrun tries to reason with her. Actually she seems more willing to talk the cat into doing what she wants than she does with people. Understandably, as she’s the boss of all people in the team, while the cat obviously is the boss of her! We also see what I believe is the first instance of the Cat Hat on p 346.
346 also has one of the most hear wrenching moments with Emil grieving over the dead kittens. The first time I read I didn’t notice them next to him in panel 5, and later when I did it turned out I’m allergic to dead cats and suddenly needed a napkin.
This entire section tells a lot about several characters, Sigrun, Emil and Mikkel. Mostly good things in my opinion.
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This entire section tells a lot about several characters, Sigrun, Emil and Mikkel. Mostly good things in my opinion.
I feel like, upon re-reading it, this section really establishes Emil's compassion, which I think is one of his key character traits throughout the rest of the story. While Emil is spoilt and annoying at times, he also really cares - seeing his grief at the dead kittens, his insistence that Mikkel save kitty, and his reaction when Mikkel has to put the mother cat down. Emil's compassion and his insistence on not giving up on people even if they seem like a lost cause will really shine through later during the Emil/Lalli mindsharing chapters, but I think this scene is one of the first places you start to properly understand this facet of his character.
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Page 346: It's always puzzled me that Sigrun seems to expect the cat to see Sigrun as a potential source of help. A non-trollified cat living in the Silent World, this far from human-controlled lands, in year 90, must have been born feral; she won't have ever seen a human in her life, much less had positive interactions with a human. All she can possibly be seeing in Sigrun is another predator even larger than the dog.
And Sigrun isn't even giving the long-blink-and-turn-head. She's staring directly at the cat. That signals aggression or hunting behavior.
I suppose she's just so used to thinking of cats as partners with humans that it's never occured to her that that's learned behavior? No feral cats in the human-inhabited areas because they're all way too valuable to allow that to happen? But I'd still think that in a world where cats are ubiquitous she'd have learned how to say hello to one! But maybe Minna doesn't know either. An awful lot of people in this world don't speak any Cat, or any Dog for that matter; they just expect everybody else to speak Human.
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I feel like, upon re-reading it, this section really establishes Emil's compassion...
I will have to respectfully disagree. I believe Emil's compassion was established much earlier and quite often by this point. What I think this section establishes is another quality foreshadowed in Emil's Prologue ancestors: stubbornness.
On page 41, Ulf is described thus: "Spends his pension betting on sports. Knows nothing about sports." While most commenters focus on the latter sentence ("Emil knows nothing, ha, ha, ha"), I want to focus on the former sentence, or what the former means in light of the latter: Ulf continues betting on sports, though he's utterly ignorant and might thus be expected to lose constantly; Ulf is therefore extremely stubborn, as is his true descendant Emil. Neither will give up on what others would see as a lost cause.
I feel like, upon re-reading it, this section really establishes Emil's... insistence on not giving up on people even if they seem like a lost cause [which] will really shine through later during the Emil/Lalli mindsharing chapters... I think this scene is one of the first places you start to properly understand this facet of his character.
I think this is a more accurate take on it.
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thorny, I agree about Sigrun not speaking Cat. Neither did she approach the cat as one would approach a wild animal, just assumed it would cooperate. Having rescued quite a number of wild animals from dangerous situations such as the middle of a highway on which they have been injured, I find it wise to assume that the animal is confused, in pain, possibly semi-conscious, and it is very likely to lash out at any approach, taking it as an attack. In Sigrun’s place it would have been better to take off her jacket before climbing, carry it up with her and throw it over the cat.
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I will have to respectfully disagree. I believe Emil's compassion was established much earlier and quite often by this point. What I think this section establishes is another quality foreshadowed in Emil's Prologue ancestors: stubbornness.
That's a good point. Emil's compassion starts appearing well before this point, although this scene does show it quite well, but it also really establishes his stubbornness. Interesting you bring up that he had an ancestor who was also stubborn - that's a detail I never noticed.
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Interesting you bring up that [Emil] had an ancestor who was also stubborn - that's a detail I never noticed.
The TVTropes page has had varying degrees of commentary on how closely the cast resembles their Prologue forebears, but to my way of thinking, Emil is the closest synthesis of the four Swede adults described: "A kind and curious man" (Stig); "Would prefer not to hear about other people's problems" (Ulrika); "Spends his pension betting on sports/Knows nothing about sports" (Ulf); and "Would also like to bet on sports, but always forgets to" (Elvira).
It always grates on me a bit when people dismiss Emil as simply stupid; I think he's just misinformed about stuff, and "wrong" doesn't mean "stupid".
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I see what you mean about Emil’s stubbornness, though being myself a person for whom stubbornness is a major defining feature of my character, I prefer to call it persistence or endurance. One just keeps on and doesn’t give up. The attitude has certainly helped to keep me going through the vicissitudes of a long and frequently difficult life.
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I didn't say it was bad; in fact, I agree with Keep:
Emil's... insistence on not giving up on people even if they seem like a lost cause will really shine through later during the Emil/Lalli mindsharing chapters...
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thorny, I agree about Sigrun not speaking Cat. Neither did she approach the cat as one would approach a wild animal, just assumed it would cooperate. Having rescued quite a number of wild animals from dangerous situations such as the middle of a highway on which they have been injured, I find it wise to assume that the animal is confused, in pain, possibly semi-conscious, and it is very likely to lash out at any approach, taking it as an attack. In Sigrun’s place it would have been better to take off her jacket before climbing, carry it up with her and throw it over the cat.
That would indeed have been a much better technique. [ETA: as you probably know but for others who might come on such a situation: it would have been a much better technique even for an injured animal who was entirely accustomed to and ordinarily friendly with humans -- as you say, in pain and confused; they may bite/scratch anyway, even at their usual housemates.]
And I think Emil's making some of the same wrong assumptions that Sigrun is (which is one reason why I think they may also be Minna's wrong assumptions, though she does sometimes show them to be ignorant of the same sort of things.) If the mother cat had been only moderately injured, they could possibly have treated her and then released her, with some food, in a safer location within her home territory. But she's severely injured -- doing that would be a slow death sentence, as even with food left for her she wouldn't have been likely to recover soon enough to manage again for herself. They'd need to hold her for weeks while she healed -- by which time they'd be nowhere near her known territory, again drastically reducing her chances of survival when released or when she succeeded in escaping. And she is, again, entirely and absolutely feral. She'd be terrified of the humans. She'd communicate that terror of humans to her kitten, unless they were kept where they couldn't see or hear each other --- and how to do that, within the cat tank? She'd hide or flee the cat tank, unless caged; and she'd be likely to hurt herself further trying to fight her way out of a cage, once she was awake enough, if only to get to the kitten -- and again, if the kitten's in with her, then the kitten's going to stay feral, because that's what Mama Cat will teach her; and any attempt to do anything to or with either of them would be violently resisted by Mama Cat.
There is no possible good outcome to this story, given that Mama Cat's wounds aren't minor. And if they had been minor, she wouldn't have collapsed while trying to fight Sigrun off and get back to her kits; so they should have realized this as soon as that happened. Bringing her back so that she could have a gentle death instead of a slow painful one made sense. Bringing her back in the hope of healing her didn't really -- except if everybody's assuming that feral cats of any age are quickly tameable. The kitten is indeed within that early window during which that's possible. But taming an adult feral cat takes years, if it works at all.
-- in the other direction about knowing cats, however: bringing the dead kittens along with the mother would have served a useful purpose if she'd only been slightly wounded: showing her the dead bodies would have meant she probably wouldn't have wasted her energy looking for them. Of course, she might well still have looked for the living one, if they hadn't released both together.
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There is no possible good outcome to this story ...
All true with respect to a Y0 cat, but I wonder if a Y90 cat, even a feral Y90 cat, might respond differently. Look at Tapsa's cats (Tapsa is the cat-man in Toivosaari), and the way they point at the door where the troll is hiding. That doesn't strike me as something a Y0 cat would be able to do. Also, the way the Grade A cats are described makes them sound more intelligent and far more trainable than Y0 cats. So Sigrun and Emil may have reasonably supposed that, if the mother cat recovered, she would come to understand that they were helping her and the kitten.
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Trust is the most important thing here and she would not trust them. Mama cat could learn that humans feed and shelter her and her kitten, but that does not mean she would like being in the Cat Tank or around humans or having her kitten there. I find it very unlikely that she could even learn that it's okay, she can trust humans.
But it could be possible for her to learn to trust them, but it would be long and hard and she may still choose to run off. Everything would be an uphill battle. And cats are not the only thing the Team has to worry about.
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Minna said somewhere, I guess in the comments in early parts (perhaps at the Shushing Cat in the river boat from Keuruu) that the cats in the comic are definitely normal animals (and not e.g. magical sentient creatures) but she makes them a bit smarter than our reality cats, making it easier to train them and for them to agree to cooperate with hoomans. So, perhaps Sigrun’s actions make a little more sense than it seems to us, and there could have been a reasonable chance to actually get the mama cat to cooperate if it wasn’t quite so badly hurt. She only sees the extent of the injuries after getting the cat down.
Or it’s just that she’s used only to cats that are used to humans, like already suggested. Or perhaps cats are considered such valuable companions and partners that she doesn’t quite think of them as ”mere animals” but something that you have to try and save. A bit like if she’d seen a feral human child out there. In which case she realizes that it’s not a particularly good idea to climb after her, but what are you going to do? It’s not like leaving her is an option at all.
Which reminds me of the excellent Human Kitty stories from a while back! Good stuff.
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One thing to remember is that Mama Cat has had no prior contact with humans, she has never even seen them before. They are truly alien to her.
Also, the only option I like for Mama Cat is to keep her, but I don't think it would work even if she had survivable injuries. I think thorny covered that well.
For Sigrun and Emil, I think their thought process was mostly, "Save the cats," and not much more than that. Reflexive, not thought out. Both due to their characters and because, well, it was not really the time or place that most people would stop and think about it. Some more thought would have been good, but being reflexive here is understandable. Though if Sigrun should have known better is a fair question.
Oh, and I have heard of Human!Kitty AUs but I have only seen one or two of them. I did not know it was an actual fandom trope. I may have to try and find those later.
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Taming an adult feral cat can happen. I, and several people I know, have done so. But it is a difficult process, and in every case I know of has taken months. Feral kittens are a much easier proposition. Letting the cat slowly adapt to your presence and come to associate you with food, warmth and companionship until it joins you by choice seems to be the best method, so not something that the team could easily do.
And you are also correct about even a domestic animal biting you when it is injured and confused. I remember getting our loved and long domesticated dog out from under the car that had run over her, and getting bitten in the process. She would never have done that if not crazed with fear and pain, poor thing.
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Taming an adult feral cat can happen. I, and several people I know, have done so. But it is a difficult process, and in every case I know of has taken months. Feral kittens are a much easier proposition. Letting the cat slowly adapt to your presence and come to associate you with food, warmth and companionship until it joins you by choice seems to be the best method, so not something that the team could easily do.
And you are also correct about even a domestic animal biting you when it is injured and confused. I remember getting our loved and long domesticated dog out from under the car that had run over her, and getting bitten in the process. She would never have done that if not crazed with fear and pain, poor thing.
Róisín, you are so correct here!!
Sometimes the best you can hope for is that your ferals will share the same room with you. 7 years ago we wanted to adopt 2 kitties to replace the oldest 2 we needed to put to sleep. (They were 20 and 19. One developed cancer and the other was in pain.)
One of the local shelters was having an adoption day at one of the big box pet stores, so we decided Let's see what they have.
We had other cats still in the household, so we usually opt for kittens, as they assimilate to the household easier.
We found a pair that were about 4-5 months old. They let us hold them and so we filled out the paperwork and once it was processed, we paid the money and took them home. The day we went to pick them up, they told us that they were a still little feral.
They were not a little feral, they were mostly feral. The only reason we think that they let us hold them, was the noise at the adoption event overwhelmed them and they just became rag dolls.
They hid. Cats can hide very effectively. They were in a room, but all the places we searched, we could not find them.
We let them out and we did not see them. We knew they were around. They ate the food and they used the boxes.
We were like UGH!, now what. We kept them, because we knew no one would want to adopt a feral cat, and we did not want them to spend their lives in a shelter.
It took years for us. One now will sleep with us, and crawl on me for scritches and cuddles, but only if i am in the bed. Once I am up, he will spend the day near me, but no touchie! The other still is extremely skittish. She is our hunter. We have an old field-stone house, so mice, chipmunks, voles do get in. (I do patch the holes up every spring, but the critters do dig...)
She now will sit near me and once in a while i can pet her. She is our invisible cat. Though se absolutely adores our oldest male cat. She will chirp at him rub all over him.
They are still petrified of the vet, and we have to give them drugs because they bit the vet. The vet won't see them unless they are drugged. We have been lucky, we have gotten scratched when thy get scared, but usually things are peaceful.
This is what we got, so we are happy with any advancement we get. It is a slow process. The one sat on my spouse's lap the other day while watching TV. Whoa!!
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I think the only reason Sigrun got the cat, was it was severely wounded. The kittly was riled about her babies getting attacked, the dog beast, then noisy humans. She probably wondered what new kind of monster is this!!
Sigrun also had the disadvantage being below the snarling kitty.
The who scenario showed to me that Sigrun is can be very no-nonsense about things, and Emil has a soft mushy heart.
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dmeck, I know that one. We had two cats that hid. The more recent was Sophie, the cat we had before Gil and Agatha (Gil died last year at nineteen and a half, Aggie is still with us though rather old and frail). Anyway, Sophie was given to us by a friend who wanted to save the cat from her horrible small son. The family was moving to Western Australia, and she took the opportunity to find the cat a gentler home. She dropped Sophie off at the house we were then renting before we started buying this place. It was a pioneer -era house which had a large fireplace in the bathroom. Sophie promptly went up the chimney and stayed there for several weeks, coming out at night for food and water and litter box before finally condescending to socialise. At that stage my kids were grown, but one set of grandkids often spent time with us, and the little girl got close enough to Sophie to be able to wheel the cat about in her doll’s pram. Which was good for Sophie, since she had lost a leg.
The other hiding cat was Greycat, whom I inherited when she was still quite young because her owner, who had been a dear friend, had died. Greycat was dropped at our Melbourne place, where she promptly dived under the piano and stayed there for several weeks, only emerging at night for the necessities. At the time we lived in Melbourne because I was newly widowed with small children and my youngest son was having ongoing medical treatment which necessitated our staying in a city with a children’s hospital for several years. Not easy. When Greycat finally emerged she decided that she was the protector of my youngest son whenever he wasn’t in hospital, and also of my youngest cousin who was sometimes living with us while he was studying. For years she would come to me whenever something was wrong with either of them, and was a great help and comfort to them both. She was a good cat.
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The who scenario showed to me that Sigrun is can be very no-nonsense about things, and Emil has a soft mushy heart.
Indeed. Whether Sigrun's choice to help the injured cat is considered a wise one or not, it does show that as she is determined to save her, she will go to trouble and take personal injury to help the animal. She also opts to comfort Emil instead of just ordering him to get up and go on page 349.
Emil's kindness also shines here. Not just with the cat, but on p 346 too. He's just been scared nearly to death by Spiderdog, and yet he feels immediate empathy for it when it calms down and flees. He was just freaking out about it, but now he's calling after it in the hopes of letting it out of its misery. No wonder he's devastated about the kittens when he's even sad for the monster dog that just about ate him.
This also tells us about Mikkel. He's snarky when the cats are presented, but nevertheless he DOES dedicate his time and effort, and what must be a rather limited supply of a tranquilizer (??) drug on giving the momma cat a better way to go. Like Sigrun, he is compassionate and kind, even though it isn't necessarily immediately visible about him.
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I would expect that in their world first aid kits, especially in areas near the Silent World, would contain an euthanasia drug, for people who were too badly wounded to survive, or who had been exposed to the Rash and were beginning to trollify.
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Oh, right. I didn’t think of that. But you are right! A drug intended for killing a human not be much depleted on a cat.
A chilling thought, to have an euthanasia drug available as firsthand aid. But I do agree completely.
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All true with respect to a Y0 cat, but I wonder if a Y90 cat, even a feral Y90 cat, might respond differently. Look at Tapsa's cats (Tapsa is the cat-man in Toivosaari), and the way they point at the door where the troll is hiding. That doesn't strike me as something a Y0 cat would be able to do. Also, the way the Grade A cats are described makes them sound more intelligent and far more trainable than Y0 cats. So Sigrun and Emil may have reasonably supposed that, if the mother cat recovered, she would come to understand that they were helping her and the kitten.
I have had a Year -0 cat point at where another cat was hiding; not with a paw, but with his attention. I looked where the cat who was in the open was intently looking, and sure enough, there was the hiding cat.
But yes, it's possible you have a point there; and it's true that Kitty appeared to be trainable in the same fashion as other cats in the Known World, which implies that the difference would also apply to cats who were the many-times-descendents of cats who became feral by lack of choice in year 0.
However, I still suspect it may have been either that neither Sigrun nor Emil had any prior experience with feral cats (and again, there may not be feral cats in the Known World; they may be too highly valued to let that happen), or that Minna herself has the automatic reflex that I've run into with some people in the current world of 'domestic species? Must innately think of humans as potential friends!' when it's actually that domesticatable species have a (generally fairly narrow) window in early youth during which they can be convinced that just about any species is potentially part of their social group. -- it's fairly easy to teach a young husky pup that cats aren't for hunting. A grown husky, or other dog with strong hunting instincts? Not so much.
-- and yes, if that cat hadn't been so badly hurt, it would have been Sigrun who was badly hurt, if she'd managed to get ahold of the cat at all by that technique. Most people seem to think that a cat who scratched or nipped them was serious, and that cats can't do much more damage than that; but those cats were holding back, using just enough force to make the human back off. I was once bit by a cat who meant it. One bite, and his teeth met in the middle of my hand. (I let go instantly, and he ran off as soon as I did.) I couldn't use the hand right for days. If he'd been a fraction of an inch over and gotten the tendon, I might not ever have fully used the hand again. And that was one bite, I let go immediately, and he wasn't full feral. Trying to hold on barehanded to a fully feral, frightened and enraged cat, and with that cat right by your face? Not bright at all, Sigrun. Compassionate, yes; but not bright.
-- I've tamed feral kittens; if they're under about four months, that's generally not hard, though it's liable to take at least a few days, and maybe a few weeks especially if they're at the upper end of the range. I have good friends who fully tamed an adult feral cat; that took years. They found him on their porch, starved, wounded, and sick; took him for a stray who'd come to a house looking for human help; scooped him up (carefully) and took him to a vet. It wasn't until he started getting some strength back that they realized he was feral, and had only been so weak that he couldn't fight back. He'd been on their porch for the same reason a starving fox or bobcat might have been: there was food there, and he'd been unable to catch any. He must have used the last of his strength trying to get to it, and had none left to flee or fight.
Once he was uncaged he spent a year or more living in their basement, hiding in the rafters whenever a human came down there. Eventually he associated them enough with the appearance of food that he let himself be seen occasionally. After quite a long time of that he started venturing upstairs -- the basement had probably gotten very boring. After considerable time in which that didn't result in disaster -- and during which he must have seen the humans patting and holding other cats -- he started to allow an occasional touch.
In the last three or four years before he died of old age he would even come to me for pats and lapsitting, and he only saw me a couple of times a year. It is possible. But it takes a huge amount of patience, and a very long time.
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Oh, I fully agree that Sigrun possibly hasn’t seen or considered a feral cat. All in all normal but wild mammals are rare, the other species due to the Rash and cats as you say because they are so very valuable (incidentally any closer-to-reality ecology effects might well have resulted in massive numbers of cats in the Silent World as there are still birds, but no other mammalian predators. But, ecology chain effects are not taking place in this universe.) I was just pointing out that this could be an additional reason why it doesn’t occur to her that the mama cat is not going to be welcoming.
She’s not barehanded btw, they are all wearing gloves. But her eyes are far too close to the claws!
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Minna said somewhere, I guess in the comments in early parts (perhaps at the Shushing Cat in the river boat from Keuruu) that the cats in the comic are definitely normal animals (and not e.g. magical sentient creatures) but she makes them a bit smarter than our reality cats, making it easier to train them and for them to agree to cooperate with hoomans. So, perhaps Sigrun’s actions make a little more sense than it seems to us, and there could have been a reasonable chance to actually get the mama cat to cooperate if it wasn’t quite so badly hurt. She only sees the extent of the injuries after getting the cat down.
Or it’s just that she’s used only to cats that are used to humans, like already suggested. Or perhaps cats are considered such valuable companions and partners that she doesn’t quite think of them as ”mere animals” but something that you have to try and save.
And then there's the possibility that Sigrun, at least, is a lot more utilitarian WRT cats than we'd like to believe.
It is stated in-story that cats-in-training go through a final exam in which the occasional trainee fails to associate an actual grossling with the artificial scent it's been trained on. And it is likely that, like their Y0 counterparts, they occasionally bring freshly-killed or even still-living prey into the house with them. I can't see the Y90 people taking the risk that a cat that flunked that exam might infect its not-all-immune humans, ever, so I don't think I'd need three guesses at what happens to them. And if they're ready throw those out the gate in the palisades, or worse ...
A drug intended for killing a human not be much depleted on a cat.
Uhhhh, careful there. At least as far as anaesthesia goes, a dosage proper for an animal often is perfectly lethal to humans, even in cases where the animal weighs a good deal less than the average two-legs.
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ecology chain effects are not taking place in this universe.
Yeah, I think that's one of the things Minna didn't bother working out.
I don't think she really worked out cat reproduction, either. The only kittens I remember actually seeing were the ones in this story. Are most of the Silent World cats sterilized? If not, I'd actually expect them to be close to drowning in kittens -- a healthy well-fed cat can have two litters or more a year of five or more kittens per litter or father a lot more than that, all of whom will be old enough to start doing the same within a year, and -- well, you can do the math. And Kitty should have managed to pull off getting pregnant between Expeditions I and II, if nothing was being done to prevent it.
But then, I'd have expected them to be trying to get Kitty pregnant (not that you'd have to try very hard: wait for heat cycle, open door, let tomcat(s) in or wailing queen out), and not to let her go adventuring again until she'd had some kits. They need the varied genetics.
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I’m not entirely convinced genetics in general is a thing here… the hereditarity of immunity is a bit weird too. It’s not nearly obvious enough to have bothered me when I was reading it all in one go, but when one stops to think, it’s different. This is not a complaint, there is no reason why the artist should have to research everything, merely an observation.
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...Incidentally any closer-to-reality ecology effects might well have resulted in massive numbers of cats in the Silent World as there are still birds, but no other mammalian predators. But, ecology chain effects are not taking place in this universe...
Yeah, I think that's one of the things Minna didn't bother working out...
I’m not entirely convinced genetics in general is a thing here… the hereditarity of immunity is a bit weird too. It’s not nearly obvious enough to have bothered me when I was reading it all in one go, but when one stops to think, it’s different. This is not a complaint, there is no reason why the artist should have to research everything, merely an observation.
Again, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree, because I think you are seriously underestimating the lethality of the beasts, trolls and giants. Specifically, I think: the Rash-creatures are so lethal and so numerous that there almost isn't an ecosystem left; the only non-Rashed animal life is in protected enclaves such as the one in Kastellet, the Lehto in Finland and human settlements; the only things that eat Rash-creatures are other Rash-creatures; and (on the other topic) immunity is a simple autosomal recessive trait with an unselected (i.e., Y0) prevalence of approximately 8% (or, put another way, 1 in 12 people was immune in Y0), with "trollification" occurring at approximately the same rate.
The reason the Silent World is forbidden is not only because you can get infected there and bring the Rash back; it's because most people who go into the Silent World don't survive long enough to come back, because they got eaten.
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Among the things not worked out are the effects on plant life, insect and other macro and micro organisms in and above the soil, bird species including migratory birds, oceanic food chains, and the effect of all of this on farming systems which developed originally within basically healthy much wider ecosystems. There's a very general mention of temporary famines, but little or no detail. Even oxygen production might have been disrupted: the plant life which produces it is currently reliant on a lot of animal activity. Some of that's from mammals and much of the rest of it would be disrupted by a sudden near-total disappearance of mammals.
I can certainly see why Minna didn't attempt to tackle that -- I don't think even a convention of trained ecologists working together could predict what would happen; we don't know enough. And that wasn't the story she was interested in telling. I'd have liked a bit of some sort of mention in there that there would have been drastic effects, though.
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Even oxygen production might have been disrupted: the plant life which produces it is currently reliant on a lot of animal activity. Some of that's from mammals and much of the rest of it would be disrupted by a sudden near-total disappearance of mammals.
Phytoplankton? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytoplankton) (Second sentence of third paragraph.)
Minna specifically mentioned insects and other such as the diet a fixed-in-place troll like Pastor Anne would subsist on, so extend that as a generalization; birds would literally go the way of the dodo, as well.
Iceland has no pretensions to food autarchy; thus the mention of famines (which were fan theories long before the canon confirmation).
I can certainly see why Minna didn't attempt to tackle that -- I don't think even a convention of trained ecologists working together could predict what would happen; we don't know enough. And that wasn't the story she was interested in telling. I'd have liked a bit of some sort of mention in there that there would have been drastic effects, though.
I was thinking that the Lehto pages at least strongly implied that the lands around had reduced fertility; that could be me reading too much into too little.
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I agree that a near total ecological collapse could well have been the reason of the Rash as it infects almost all mammals, however we see this is not what happened. There is the deer Emil and Sigrun didn’t hunt. The momma cat is eating something. Several items of clothing have fur, Lalli even buys a fur cape in Adv 2. It looks like wolf although we don’t really get to see it that closely. So, there are animals in the Silent World. In adventure 2 they walk several days out in the middle of the Silent World with no shelter and only encounter a few monsters. Of these the poodle, the waswolves and the lake cows are widely mobile (only an assumption for the poodle) while the kalma in Käsämä and the car trolls are either stationary or mostly slow. So, it seems that in the 90 years, which is quite a few generations for most animals, there has developed a balance allowing animal life some use of the forests too.
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Onwards… the end of Chapter 7 is very touching. A fine example of how masterfully Minna made us feel for the monsters. The Sad Dog finally gets to rest, and Emil gets a huge growing moment. He approaches the spiderdog despite knowing what it is, and puts himself in clear and present danger to release a being that nearly just ate him. We also see Lalli being supportive and friendly towards Emil, at least for certain Lalli-esque values of support. The best-rated comments of several of the pages here are very good too!
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302-317
I think this cover is one of the best in SSSS. Most of the covers don’t have a lot going on, which is a neutral or even a good thing, but this one has a lot happening and that helps it stand out.
Page 303, panel 4, you can see a slit along the dog's back. With makes sense with what we see it do later, but I missed this in my past readings.
The transition on pages page 304-305, is funny, but I don’t know why Emil is bathing Lalli. Out of universe, I don’t think it was meant as fanservice or shipbait, and in-universe the only thing I can think of is that Lalli does not know how to bathe himself, and I would doubt that to be the case. If he just needed to wash very thoroughly, Tuuri could have told him that.
Pages 306-308 lead to some major misreadings of Reynir’s character early on. Though I think people still should have understood that Reynir is acting like this due to the situation he’s in. Some people also missed the fact that he figured out what Tuuri was doing and backed off.
Page 310, I just wanted to say this page looks gorgeous.
Page 313, panel 5, you can see Emil looking sad at the class pet. I point this out because people were talking about Emil’s compassion, and it seemed like people forgot that you see this from him earlier. Mostly when he interacts with his cousins, including telling them to leave Lalli alone, and also a little in his conversations with Tuuri. This chapter is the first time we see Emil’s compassion highlighted, but it was established before.
Page 314-315, I just love seeing characters in the post-apocalypse trying to understand technology the audience is familiar with. This exchange was one I loved on first reading. (It was overshadowed for me later but it’s still great!)
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It never occurred to me to womder about Emil helping Lalli wash. It’s hard to get all the potential goo off your neck and back of the head when you can’t see and don’t have a shower so that you can use both hands. I’m sure Lalli would be able to take care of it all by himself but it’s definitely quicker and more convenient with someone playing the part of rhe shower. Also they are outside and the water is warm to start with but there’s no heating to keep it warm, so speed is of the essence for Lalli’s comfort. So, it makes perfect sense to me. Now that you mention it, I wonder who helps Sigrun to bathe or does she just have to take the inevitably cooling water?
I absolutely agree that Emil’s compassionate side was shown earlier too. Starting with the sandwich incident in the first train. He didn’t get cross with Lalli, he just went to get more for both of them. He’s not always perfect at it, but he is a nice person.
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It never occurred to me to womder about Emil helping Lalli wash. It’s hard to get all the potential goo off your neck and back of the head when you can’t see and don’t have a shower so that you can use both hands. I’m sure Lalli would be able to take care of it all by himself but it’s definitely quicker and more convenient with someone playing the part of rhe shower. Also they are outside and the water is warm to start with but there’s no heating to keep it warm, so speed is of the essence for Lalli’s comfort. So, it makes perfect sense to me. Now that you mention it, I wonder who helps Sigrun to bathe or does she just have to take the inevitably cooling water?
That would make sense. As for Sigrun, it does not seem to me that the SSSS world would gender segregate. Under this interpretation, it would not matter if only a man could help her. Either way, if Sigrun needed help, I would assume it would be Mikkel. Certainly, if they do gender segregate as he is the medic.
I absolutely agree that Emil’s compassionate side was shown earlier too. Starting with the sandwich incident in the first train. He didn’t get cross with Lalli, he just went to get more for both of them. He’s not always perfect at it, but he is a nice person.
I forgot about that one!
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It makes sense to have help, especially with the initial hose-down. And because they are not just washing but decontaminating, where it is important to get at every little fold and corner. It is for instance hard to get sticky clay out of your hair and off the skin of your back, especially if you have scrapes and scratches which need to be thoroughly cleaned of dirt (says the person who has needed help to clean up, and needed to give it to others, after a spelunking trip which included getting us and our gear around a partly water-filled U bend in a Gippsland cave). In the case of the comic, I expect they would have to be even more thorough, because they are dealing with a deadly disease as well as just the filth of a dead city.
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318-334
I and others already covered the nonsense around Reynir learning he is a mage. I don’t think I have more to say about that, at least for now.
The transition on pages 317-318 is so good! I could gush endlessly about all the Dreamworld panels but I don’t have much of interest to say about them. I just love them so much!
I commented once that I don’t recall seeing any indication that Reynir’s Haven had a barrier. On page 323, panel 4, that could be read as a barrier. But you do see Lalli leave and come back to his own Haven earlier in the comic and it looked different than this. Also, on page 326, panel 6, you see both Reynir and Lalli leave Lalli’s Haven, and it does not look like when Reynir left his own. Then of course there is Onni’s comment on having heard that Icelandic mages are, “-mostly defenseless.” I think it is strongly indicated that Icelandic mages’ havens don’t have barriers, but how they would survive without them is unclear. (My own headcanon is that they are not as easily sensed by the spirits in the Dreamworld and that their havens are also partially hidden from them but this is pure headcanon.)
In SSSS, characters are described as fat multiple times, it is always negative, and most of it is completely unnecessary. Now, on page 319, panel 1, Reynir calls Mikkel, “the big Dane,” and then on the last panel of page 328, Reynir calls Tuuri, “kinda round.” Mikkel is the only Dane there, so describing him by his appearance is needless. When talking to Onni, describing Tuuri’s appearance does make sense, but I do think it’s noteworthy that she is called “round” and it has the qualifier of “kinda.” I think it makes the fat jokes look even meaner by comparison.
Page 329, I think the conversation with Onni and Reynir gave some people the idea that Reynir had no friends. (We do see he has friends in A2 but that came much later.) Honestly, when I came upon the “Reynir had no friends theory” it seemed reasonable, but thinking about it further, I think the only way Reynir could be friendless is if he was overworked to the point of never getting a social life.
Page 332, I understand why Lalli shouldn’t leave Onno’s Haven, but is it clear why he could not get back without Reynir?
Also, while Lalli would likely not be particularly fond of Reynir away (a least at first), a lot of Lalli’s initial dislike of Reynir was due to a misunderstanding after a misunderstanding. It makes sense that Lalli softens to Reynir later.
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My understanding was that while it was unsafe for Lalli to leave Onni’s Haven and go wandering through the Dreamworld trying to get back to his own place, especially since he can’t do the walk on water thing without Reynir’s help, (when we see him outside earlier, he appears to be walking on rocks under the surface of the sea), waking up would automatically drop him back into his own body. And there are, I think, several points where Minna remarks that wandering the dream ocean and just barging into other people’s Havens is a thing Icelandic mages can just do.
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Maybe the differences in havens reflect some kind of observed cultural difference that Minna wanted to put in? I mean I'm not Scandinavian but I know that Finnish people do have a reputation for being introverted/standoffish because of the particular cultural norms there, and maybe Iceland is a bit different from that / more open and friendly (I'm not so sure on that front). Potentially this could be reflected in the different magic systems with the Finnish mages being more closed-off / wanting more boundaries and thus having more barriers around their havens.
I DO think it very much reflects the specific personalities of the different characters - Reynir is very open and friendly and tends to barge into things and end up in places he wasn't meant to be, which fits with his ability to run across the dreamscape. Meanwhile, Lalli and Onni are much more closed-off people who very much appreciate personal boundaries.
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Also the Icelandic sagas, when they mention Finnish magic, tend to talk about it very cautiously and respectfully, with a lot of mentions of their skill at stealth and weatherworking. I know one of the sagas mentions someone who, in attempting to resolve a a long and difficult war, ‘hired a Finnish wizard, and that was the end of that matter’. And in one of the royal sagas, the king has a retainer he refers to as ‘the little Finn’, who seems to be a very effective spy/mage/assassin. Sort of a dark variant of Lalli. And the Nordics did consider the Finns in general to be a very insular and secretive people.
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I completely missed that Lalli could not walk on water by himself! I thought for sure that he did, but I checked the earlier pages, and nope. He does not.
A few things make a bit more sense now.
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It makes sense to have help, especially with the initial hose-down. And because they are not just washing but decontaminating, where it is important to get at every little fold and corner.
And then again, when Lalli returned from his scouting in Kastrup, all the decontamination Mikkel insisted on before letting Tuuri hug Lalli (though still with a mask on) was a couple spritzes from his "water"bottle. Not to mention Reynir and Mikkel being in the same room while Mikkel gave some clothes a thorough scrub as the Cat-Tank was heading into Copenhagen proper.
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The laundry is just against the clothes getting dirty, the infectious material doesn’t survive outside a host body. This is discussed (in relation to the washing JoB just mentioned) on pages 373 and 375.
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Yeah, being out in the sunlight and/or the cold also kills the infective agent.
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Returning to pages 318-334 for a moment.
On page 326, Lalli punches Reynir and on page 328, Onni forces Reynir against a tree, threatens him, and seems to be preparing a magical attack. Lalli’s violence was unnecessary, though it was understandable he would be upset with Reynir. Onni thought that Reynir was a spirit come to attack him, so violence was understandable, even if it was just a misunderstanding.
I wanted to bring this up because Reynir is physically hurt by others multiple times in A1. In A2, we learn that his mother is physically abusive, which on reread makes this all extra uncomfortable for me.
I have not seen people actually talk about any of this either. I have seen it acknowledged but only in jokes. I have never seen it discussed.
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In A2, we learn that his mother is physically abusive, which on reread makes this all extra uncomfortable for me.
Can you point to the particular page(s)? I'm trying to remember the incident.
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A2, pages 18-19. I believe that is everything for physical abuse from Reynir's mother but I could be forgetting something.
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I think there’s just the one ear grabbing incident, but given how he’s a grown man already and they are right in front of a big audience, it does seem like it’s not something she’d feel shy about. Also the way they have lied to him about not being allowed to leave, effectively forcing him to stay home as free labour can be considered to not be exactly healthy.
Btw NightMareMage there’s cake for you in the Promotions thread :)
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335-345
I feel like Sigrun should have heard something. Maybe she could not hear Emil and the dog running past her, or them running in the other direction once they were in the same hall. But Emil shoots at the dog twice, each time firing several bullets.
346-354
Something about Mama Cat I don’t think anyone talked about was her age. Cats can reproduce at four mouths and are fully grown at two years. Feral cats in real life have a life expectancy of under two years. I would guess that cats in the Silent World would have an even shorter life expectancy. Assuming she is fully grown, she has lived longer than most cats in her environment, while hardly being an adult. And if cats are not uncommon in Silent Denmark, or at least the area she lived in, this is likely not her first litter.
For Kitty’s age, I am not sure. Cats can start eating solid food at four weeks but should be nursed for about eight. I would guess she is somewhere between four and eight weeks old.
Pages 353, I am not sure how they are treating Kitty. I can tell they are getting her warm and presumably dry, but I don’t know what is in the bowl or what Emil is doing. Maybe they are not drying her but using hot water and towels to warm her, with could explain the bowl, but not what Emil is doing.
355-363
On page 356, panel 2, at Mama Cat’s funeral, Emil tells Lalli to get any death rites he may have over with. A little bit of foreshadowing for the next chapter, where Lalli does a death rite for the dog, to the horror and confusion of Emil.
There is a lot of great character work in this chapter, especially from Emil, but I do find that it loses some bite on reread. In A2, Emil comments on having a thing about dog beasts. Which is fair, but it just makes me think about how inconsistent trauma is handled in SSSS (mostly in A2). So for me, rereading this makes me think about my frustrations with SSSS (again, mostly A2).
That said, YMMV, but I think SSSS A1 was very good at balancing the tone. Letting there be heavy moments, but giving levity while not undermining the tone is not an easy feat. (The ending of A1 is more dramatic but there is still levity and it ends on a high note.)
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I think what they are feeding Kitty is some of the canned tuna, possibly warmed.
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Oh hey, look, the page I got my icon of Lalli from is in this section of the re-read! (366 (https://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=366) if you want to look at the full page's context)
From chapter 7 and beyond, they always get me in my emotions (and overthinking the anatomy of these beasts and trolls). Chapter 7 is such a nail for me to read through, no matter how many times I have.
These comments are during Chapter 5 specifically
Though literally the first page of Chapter 5 (224 (http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=224)), i just want to appreciate Sigrun's instant jump to action the moment their radar detected something approaching the Cat-Tank. Even though she just awoke from her sleep, she instantly throws a mask to Tuuri and grabs what I believe is a rifle to investigate. (also Tuuri's face in that bottom left panel is hilarious).
(225 (http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=225)) - Is it worth concern over the way Sigrun checks that door through a peep-hole? Or more specifically that you have to shove your eye up to a small part of it to see who's on the other side. I'd hope its reinforced with the rest of the Cat-tank, else that'd not be fun to get jabbed in the eye by some thing that lurks out there just to check.
And with the comments, it must take skill for Lalli to scritch-scratch in a question mark.
(228 (http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=228)) - Can I say how scared of these radio transmissions I am? Over the course of both adventures, I'm not sure how many times it's happened but it's been eating away at me what it'd even sound like. Despite loving horror, I am both scared easily and scare myself even easier. I'd avoid ever using a radio if I could help it because of.. that.
It just goes from static, to pure screaming or even distorted begging of trollified things. It happened awhile back in the murder-train as well. (157 (https://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=157) specifically, eugh! it was worse than I rememberd! why'd she leave it on so long?) I'm to assume they're picking up on the transmission devices left out in the Silent World's claims, though I admit I don't have a perfect understanding of how it works. But if it is picking up on, say, someones hodge-podge'd radio, oh dear me that's terrifying. But also why are they still screaming, it's probably been decades since.. yknow, illness overtook them... Do trolls just, constantly scream? Isn't it.. pretty quiet out there? Then what's picking up those noise/voices? I have questions and I'm scared of their answers.
But ohh, I don't have words for how creepy the sometimes-re-occuring-radio-screaming is to me.
There's so much to talk about, and probably not enough space for it all in a single post (i want a word with whoever designed that train) so I should probably leave it here for now before I just go through every page of Chapter 5 and subsequently 3, hah!
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(225 (http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=225)) - Is it worth concern over the way Sigrun checks that door through a peep-hole? Or more specifically that you have to shove your eye up to a small part of it to see who's on the other side. I'd hope its reinforced with the rest of the Cat-tank, else that'd not be fun to get jabbed in the eye by some thing that lurks out there just to check.
The panel showing what she sees of Lalli outside displays a pronounced fisheye lens effect, so I'd guess that there are at least optics - read, glass - inserted into the hole. (Also, a plain hole in an even moderately armored hull would not allow you to see anything at all ... unless it's already making a friendly visit to the inside! ;) )
(157 (https://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=157) specifically, eugh! it was worse than I rememberd! why'd she leave it on so long?)
For the benefit of us readers, of course! :) (A.k.a. "show, don't tell". IIRC nobody ever cared to explain the Black Radio in-universe, unless the Black Speech mages constantly hear is supposed to cover it as well.)
I'm to assume they're picking up on the transmission devices left out in the Silent World's claims, though I admit I don't have a perfect understanding of how it works.
That would necessitate that there still is electricity in the Silent World, wouldn't it? I don't think that the fandom ever believed Black Radio to emanate from anything other than the trolls (!, because speech!) and/or the magic connected to them.
But also why are they still screaming, it's probably been decades since.. yknow, illness overtook them... Do trolls just, constantly scream?
Yes - but not in a way that Joe Muggleson's ears can perceive. It is established in canon that at least the Finnish mages can "hear" them wailing, thanks (erm ...) to their affinity to magic.
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OK so this is on portions of chapter 8 --
Re the abusiveness: I wonder a bit about Minna's life because there does seem to be a good bit of it, and in terms of more than one character. Maybe Minna's just trying to show harsh conditions in general and meant to make a point of abusive behavior being abusive and then just never got to it, but it seems to mostly just be taken for granted as within the range of normal behavior. Note on p382 Tuuri's being rather verbally abusive of Lalli -- and what's more she knows why that's bound to be a really sore spot, she was there, p387. Though admittedly she wasn't there for Onni's similar lecture on p390.
Also note on p390 the first reference to Grandma's one mistake - and at least a couple of people puzzling over it in the comments. I don't read all the comments, too many of them.
And note on p387 3 other scouts under 15 also apparently just say Mrrrr. (Lalli's already out the door.) Is this a common sort of communication problem among scouts?
And what (presumably)-adult looked at a scout's report before sending a team out, saw one that just said "yes", and didn't say "yes what? yes safe or yes trolls?" and check further before sending the team?! It's their fault, too -- and there's no mention of extra training for whoever did that. I wonder whether that's the job of the person making the announcement about additional training for young scouts (p388), and if so if that's why they brush off a multi-person error that caused four deaths plus serious injuries as no big deal -- and don't mention that it wasn't only the scout who screwed up.
I like pea soup! -- as, I note, does the first commenter I see on the page. (this is re Minna's comment on p388.)
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Re the abusiveness: see page 90 when Tuuri kicks Lalli to make him come up and look at the view: "You can be sick and miserable later."
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I’m still puzzled about the one mistake. Which one was it? Letting the Package slide? Thinking she can take out Hiljatroll and thus falling prey to the Kade? Not noticing Hilja’s suspicious behavior?
Hopefully it’s not ”letting the entire village be destroyed” as that was the responsibility of many people. Although it would seem like a Hotakainen thing to do, consider herself the only one and driving it into Onni and Lalli that ithe buredn will be upon them and them aline when she gets too old.
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I think it was letting Hilja bring the package in, after Lalli told her there was something wrong with it.
Though I think it wasn't exactly agreeing to let the package in -- I think it was looking Hilja in the eyes when Hilja told her to do that (page 118, adventure II). It was after she looked Hilja in the eyes that she agreed to let the package in; she might have done so because she'd already let the Kade in. I think that's what the Kade's reminding her of, when she was about to try to cleanse Hilja's corpse; and she says she was stupid, stupid and then tells Lalli that he mustn't look her in the eyes. (Pages 139-40 in Adventure II.)
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I thought it was looking Hilja in the eye, which allowed Hilja to bring in the infected beast home, to infect everyone.
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I also think that Ensi's mistake was looking into the Kade's eyes. But I don't think they ever name her mistake outright, so that may not be it.
Re the abusiveness: SSSS reads to me like Minna did not realize that what she depicted was abuse.
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Reads that way to me too; she just thinks it's normal behavior.
Which is what worries me about her own life.
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I fear the acceptance of abusive behaviour as the norm is all of a piece with the religious stuff. That is all too often the case, sadly.
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I fear the acceptance of abusive behaviour as the norm is all of a piece with the religious stuff. That is all too often the case, sadly.
Though there is the question if Minna sees it like that in RL or if it's just part of the Y90 world. I mean Hannu and Paju acted like that too, but they were still seen as mean. Just that most of the others are too scared or whatever to do anything about it. Particularly Hannu's idea that Paju is always mad at him for some reason, he has no idea why (and I guess he doesn't really care either). I suppose Hannu is simply not intimidated by her in the slightest, unlike most of everyone else.
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Beginning of chapter 8 shows us a noita doing noita stuff. Do you recall what you thought when we were shown what Lalli was up to? Were you more like Emil or like Tuuri?
Here we also have Mikkel stating he would never melt candles into the soup. Should we believe? Did you? Where did the fan concept of candle soup come from, as we clearly see here Mikkel would never!
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This chapter's cover is so pretty. I've always admired Minna's ability to draw snow!(the color scheme too my god)
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364-370
Page 264 has a beautiful transition and simple but effective visual storytelling.
Does anyone else find page 367 panel 2 unclear? I think it’s supposed to be Sigrun’s arms stretched upwards but I am not sure.
I don’t really remember what I thought of Lalli’s actions on first reading. On reread, I thought I would find it offputting due to the animal gore, maybe I did on my first read though, but this time I least I just thought it was nice of Lalli.
Can’t say for sure but Mikkel probably did use the candles for food. If not here, then later. Candles are not great, but a food source is a food source.
Is it odd that Mikkel had seen Emil’s educational records? I know they had profiles that Mikkel has likely seen but education records seems like a lot. Maybe things like high school dropout would be on there but I don't see why Mikkel would know more than that. I think it’s just story convenience, which is not the worst thing, but still. (Insured theory that Mikkel works for Trond for Secrect Reasons here.)
I forget if I have said this before but something that makes SSSS great is the character interactions. So many pages just ooze with it! A1 gives lots of small and big moments between characters and it really shines because of it. Also, a big reason A2 was much weaker was because it lacked this.
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Nightmaremage, panel 2 of 267 looks to me like Sigrun reaching out in front of her, to feel the snow or indicating it, or both. In any case I’m sure it’s her.
I can’t quite remember what I thought about Lalli here, but the butchering on p 269 looks so strongly ritualistic that I think I saw it as noita stuff the first time around as well as now. I think I would remember if I was badly grossed out. I was bingeing on my first read, so I probably went too fast to appreciate the gravity of this fully. Poor Emil, who doesn’t believe in mages at all this early in the story!
And yes, you are absolutely right about the interactions! Sadly missing almost completely in Adv 2.
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The reason I think Sigrun is reaching up is because of the little picture in the text bubble. In it, it looks like her arms are up.
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Out of sequence, sorry, but as NightmareMage said, there were a lot of small and telling interactions in building Adv. 1. Here's one from chap. 7 that still blows me away.
(https://40.media.tumblr.com/f505d7b8248ea075e6887cb47c97feb6/tumblr_inline_nr30yxHcSB1r2g2kx_540.png)
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Though out adv 1 adventure, there are little hints about Lalli and Emil. You could ship them (as I do).
But they can just be a bromance. Really close friends. It is always great to see them together.
Lalli being stuck in Emil’s head to me makes the see the others perspective
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Beginning of chapter 8 shows us a noita doing noita stuff. Do you recall what you thought when we were shown what Lalli was up to? Were you more like Emil or like Tuuri?
Here we also have Mikkel stating he would never melt candles into the soup. Should we believe? Did you? Where did the fan concept of candle soup come from, as we clearly see here Mikkel would never!
Yes well -- I guess Emil had a reason to suspect. Also, it may not mean he did not put candles into the soup, only that he did not waste energy by melting them separately. Or that he did it later, just because they gave him the idea. They were rather low on resources.
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Oh yeah that’s right! Maybe it occurred to him right because Sigrun asked that the candles could be used to supplement the low rations!
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...which would mean it's a thing to put candles into food in Norway? hmmmm
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...which would mean it's a thing to put candles into food in Norway? hmmmm
Maybe in the early days. Possibly the Granny in the Prologue knew about tallow candles being a possible source of food. Like maybe they ran out of food the first winter. Along with hunting (she had a rifle) and gathering what you can all autumn.
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I've given myself permission to skip reading the old comments (on the grounds that there were way too many of them) and just read the comic. This may greatly increase the chances that I'll do significant amounts of the re-read.
If somebody is reading some or all of the comments, though: if there's something worth pointing me to, point me at it and I'll go look.
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Though some of the comments are very good, you are very correct. That is what has bogged me down also...
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I've found that I'm actually quite bad at slow re-reads (I'm... a fast reader. I like to churn through things) but I recently re-read the first adventure of SSSS (only occasionally looking at the comments) and was hit by just. wow. It's a good story, huh.
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Reading the comments (and participating) used to take hours back when it was updating. I've gotten out of the habit of spending chunks of my time there, and even when I'm looking for something specific, I find I no longer have that time.
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Wave, ditto! I thought when we were about to start the reread that it will be great to read the comments especially from before my time (which is all of Adv 1) but sadly it feels more tedious than joyful now 😢