Author Topic: Latest Page Discussions/Comic Update Chitchat  (Read 392250 times)

Dilandu

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Re: Latest Page Discussions/Comic Update Chitchat
« Reply #2730 on: September 27, 2017, 10:13:31 AM »
As a rule of thumb, in the places where the serum ghosts originated (Amalienborg, Kastellet, OUH), we had quite precisely one for every occupied bed; hence the estimates of 100% ghosts per "cured" patient in Y0 but <=1% of trolls from untreated infected.

Unless, in the middle of the Danish society breaking down in Y0, they managed to reserve entire emergency treatment centers for only "nascent mages" or whatever other novel subgroup, I don't see the serum being given to such a subset. Not to mention that the scientists developing it were shown not to have any such specialization in mind (remember the meeting and the military types grasping for no less that saving the nation?).

Agreed, and we have basically no indications that mages even actually existed in Y0, far less that they were actually known. They may be completely Rash-induced anomaly.

Interesting question: is A the serum-induced ghost as well? Her church was clearly one of emergency hospitals, and there is something rather similar to the serum cans on the background of her memories...

http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=574

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Re: Latest Page Discussions/Comic Update Chitchat
« Reply #2731 on: September 27, 2017, 10:18:13 AM »
Agreed, and we have basically no indications that mages even actually existed in Y0, far less that they were actually known. They may be completely Rash-induced anomaly.

Interesting question: is A the serum-induced ghost as well? Her church was clearly one of emergency hospitals, and there is something rather similar to the serum cans on the background of her memories...

http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=574

I really wish I could find my original post where I speculated on the Illness and magic. :)  Because it HAS to be magic.
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Dilandu

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Re: Latest Page Discussions/Comic Update Chitchat
« Reply #2732 on: September 27, 2017, 10:39:31 AM »
I really wish I could find my original post where I speculated on the Illness and magic. :)  Because it HAS to be magic.

Well, the Illness is clearly outside the physical realm at least partially. Far too bizzare effects, to explain by anything short of Clarktech ("any sufficiently advanced technology..." ;) ). But on the other hands, it is not completely outside the physical world also. The trolls and beasts required living brain to work; they are still living creatures which have at least some resemblance of metabolism as we know it. And all the Rash entites - including ghosts - are VERY susseptible to ultraviolet. So, it seems that even ghosts have "some physical parts", after all...

JoB

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Re: Latest Page Discussions/Comic Update Chitchat
« Reply #2733 on: September 27, 2017, 11:40:07 AM »
I really wish I could find my original post where I speculated on the Illness and magic. :)  Because it HAS to be magic.
The Rash, yes. The cure, no. The effects of the cure, only as far as it manages to actually change the mechanisms of the Rash for both the 1% who would otherwise have trollified and the 99% who would have just died.
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Dilandu

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Re: Latest Page Discussions/Comic Update Chitchat
« Reply #2734 on: September 27, 2017, 11:44:12 AM »
The Rash, yes. The cure, no. The effects of the cure, only as far as it manages to actually change the mechanisms of the Rash for both the 1% who would otherwise have trollified and the 99% who would have just died.

So, basically, what does the cure do? It stopped the effects of the Rash, it also stopped humans brain activity, but it doesn't outright kill humans. All the patients how recieved cure were still alive, when the facilities were abandoned by personnel.

But, after they died - their souls for some reason became trapped as ghosts? Despite the cure having pretty physical (not metaphysical) effect?

JoB

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Re: Latest Page Discussions/Comic Update Chitchat
« Reply #2735 on: September 27, 2017, 12:32:10 PM »
So, basically, what does the cure do? It stopped the effects of the Rash, it also stopped humans brain activity, but it doesn't outright kill humans.
Ehhh, careful there. The developers confirmed the side effect to be "brain death" (which is also the expected result of "stopping [all] brain activity", for that matter). Also, they said it stopped the progression of the Rash, not [all] its effects.

All the patients how recieved cure were still alive, when the facilities were abandoned by personnel.
For whatever value of "alive" that doesn't get you hauled off to the morgue, yes. Of cause, with the side effect being brain death, we'll have to assume that the morgue was quite busy nonetheless.

But, after they died - their souls for some reason became trapped as ghosts? Despite the cure having pretty physical (not metaphysical) effect?
... maybe. Since the doctors weren't mages, the other obvious possibility would be that their souls had turned into ghosts standing next to their still-barely-living bodies before death and simply nobody was able to see them there. All we know is that they didn't become murderghosts immediately (though that might still be what ultimately happened to the hospital staff).
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thorny

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Re: Latest Page Discussions/Comic Update Chitchat
« Reply #2736 on: September 27, 2017, 12:45:07 PM »
Eventually there wouldn't have been enough living left to deal with hauling dead bodies off to the morgue. Towards the end, some bodies would probably have been left in their beds even though there were still a few alive in the neighboring beds and/or elsewhere in the hospital.

Vafhudr

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Re: Latest Page Discussions/Comic Update Chitchat
« Reply #2737 on: September 27, 2017, 12:52:42 PM »
Sunflower, I think you're right about empathy, sorrow and grief for loss being part of the oldest tales. Look at the 'Epic of Gilgamesh'. And for that matter, the 'Táin'. When I do my yearly gig as storyteller at the Gumeracha Mediaeval Fair, I always save the 'Fight at the Ford' from the 'Táin' to tell around the fire in the evening, to the Viking Society guys who have been doing fighting displays during the day. I count it a bad year when I can't make them cry. That part of the tale is where the hero and his best friend since boyhood/coweth companion/soulmate find themselves as champions on opposite sides in a particularly bloody and vicious war.

Up to that point the violence has been treated fairly lightly, in a sort of braggadocio-and-severed-heads-swinging-from-chariots way. Then you get the two young men confronting one another, each trying to talk the other out of it (but one has been tricked into giving his sacred oath to fight, the other is defending his helpless kindred just the other side of the border). They fight three days of formal setpiece duels at the ford, with no resolution. One has food, which he shares with his mate, the other has access to a healer, which he likewise shares. 'Their horses passed the nights in the same field, and their charioteers by the same fire'. Just to add to the tragedy, their two charioteers are brothers.

On the fourth day, they get serious. One is killed, and the one who killed him is completely shattered. His lament over his dead friend, the bit that starts: 'It was all play, all sport, until Ferdiad came to the ford' is one of the finest pieces of Irish epic poetry. But my point is that this incident is all the more poignant because for most of the epic the protagonists just man up and get on with it, because that's what you do when you are in an epic. There are moments of tenderness, some of them in Cuchullain's courtship of Emer, or 'The Tale of the Death of Cuchullain's One Son'; some in 'Deirdre of the Sorrows', which is one of the prequel tales to the Táin, but mostly these are subsumed in the action.

And I think that at present much of the open mourning and emotional debriefing of SSSS has been similarly been subsumed in the action. I think we will see some of it eventually, but not yet, because it would be unwise of the characters to do that stuff in the midst of fighting/running for their lives. Though I would be unsurprised if some of it came out between Mikkel and Sigrun, talking by the fire through the long dark nights...

There is a final bit to 'The Fight at the Ford', where the hero is collapsed mourning and bleeding over his dead friend, and his charioteer comes and shakes him and tells him to get moving if he wants to live, because 'The men of Ireland are coming for you now, and now that Ferdiad has been slain, it is no longer of single combat that they are thinking......'. Always the practicalities, just when one is settling down for a nice long angsty brood!

My only quibble with such an approach is that those texts all come from warrior societies with codes of grieving - both public and private. I don't exactly expect Sigrun to tear off her coat, beat at her chest, claw her face and so on. Despite the return to a warrior structure in the case of Norway, I still think that there a lot of things that sets post-apocalyptic Norway apart from let's say Viking Age Norway. And I think the biggest thing that sets it apart is the relation people would have to fighting in such a world.

If in the past fighting was done for booty, sheeps women and glory, with a strong emphasis on homosocial behaviours, the current army is more or less a mix of pre-apocalypse army with commando features and cooler clothes. They are not fighting against other warriors, but against monsters. They are not raiding, but rather fighting a reconquista against a faceless enemy. There is often not enough of the dead to bring back and honour, if there is anything to bring back at all. Furthermore, due to the factor of contamination, those that come in contact with the monsters are almost immediately suspicious - so bodies are burned, buried, or disposed of far away from the public eye. As such, the general impression I get is that in this world people don't so much die as they disappear.

Consider two cases: the sequence where Tuuri was describing her childhood in the lake islands and Tuuri's own suicide. For the lake islands, even though the population of whole villages died, containing possibly people that they knew, all there was to signify their death was a red cross of the town's name. That town, and all it's inhabitants, had just vanished. Tuuri's own death mirrors this - she flees from her comrades and dies far away, with no body to be recovered.

I think this indicates a certain attitude - anyone can disappear. Today they are here, tomorrow they might be gone. I would not be surprised if there is a certain fundamental distance cultivated between people in such a context. In such a situation, what is there even to grieve? It's just another face gone.

This would also tie back into the survival thematic. Despite the state of current society, these battles are not a war anymore - it's survival, and this too changes the attitude one has toward death.

[...]

On the subject of the Cure and the Rash: doctors and scientist may have been able to design a mixture that either slows down or even stop the physical effects of the rash, but I am thinking perhaps the creation of ghosts could have been due to these scientists touching upon the core root of the problem.

I have held, for a while now, that the disease is both metaphysical and physical, biological and spiritual. But what comes first? Does it infect the soul first, which then leads to physical degeneration? Or is it physical corruption that finally rots the soul? When you see the first effects of the rash, could it be that is in fact just the outward sign of the soul infection.

If that's the case, then the cure that they found, a cure that simultaneously stops the physical signs of the disease but also causes brain death, could have been a form of Soul Amputation. Think Golden Compass. How they could have done this, I don't know, but all these ghosts could in fact be souls that have been artificially separated from their body and more or less condemned to a sort of earthly Limbo. With the soul out of the body, if the infection is indeed caused by a corruption of the soul, then the body would no longer be affected.

This is of course, pure speculation. My only support is thanks to the Mages' magic tricks, especially Onni, we have already established that a part of the soul can leave the body. It's not therefore that much of a stretch to think that you could separate a chunk of the soul from the body in such a setting.
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Dilandu

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Re: Latest Page Discussions/Comic Update Chitchat
« Reply #2738 on: September 27, 2017, 12:59:36 PM »
Ehhh, careful there. The developers confirmed the side effect to be "brain death" (which is also the expected result of "stopping [all] brain activity", for that matter). Also, they said it stopped the progression of the Rash, not [all] its effects.

Er, on the page - http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=419

- the note, left by medical personnel ninety years ago clearly states that they considered their patients at least formally alive and (at least in theory) capable of waking up. So, at least their vital functions remained.

For whatever value of "alive" that doesn't get you hauled off to the morgue, yes. Of cause, with the side effect being brain death, we'll have to assume that the morgue was quite busy nonetheless.

Well, as I mentioned above, medical personnel considered the return of some of their patients into consciousness as at least possible. Otherwise they hardly would left a note. Of course, it may be just the last, desperate hope... but this still means, that the restoring of brain functions was considered a probability.

All we know is that they didn't become murderghosts immediately (though that might still be what ultimately happened to the hospital staff).

The ghosts from Amalienborg seems to be relatively peaceful. One of them killed the wounded troll, and later attempted to touch Emil, but its unclear, was any harm actually intended or the ghost was actually confused about what exactly happened.

The Kastellet ghosts were clearly much more agressive, and the local fauna clearly knew to avoid the old medical facility. Which basically means, that those ghosts were... not very friendly for quite a lot of time. And they acted hostile against expedition almost immediately, noreover - they actually put a lot of efforts and resources in the destruction of expedition. Both groups of ghosts have the same year of origin, so the reasons of such difference in behavior is... unclear.

I have some speculation... Of course, it may be too far-fetched, but the note in Amalienborg stated, that the soldiers in Kastellet "abandoned their cause". Presumably, they abandoned the patients, too, to their death.

Of course, it is purely speculative, but maybe the reasons for the difference in behavior is, that the Amalienborg ghosts actually knew, that they weren't abandoned? That their medical personnel were actually intended to return but was unable to do that? So, that's why they are passive, non-agressive, and generally sit around and... wait for their caretakers to return?

And what if the Kastellet ghosts knew, that they actually WERE abandoned to death by the peoples who were supposed to protect them and care after them. Ninety years of nothing better to do than just feel betrayed and lost... pretty enough for anybody to develope at least some grunge against humanity as whole.

Dilandu

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Re: Latest Page Discussions/Comic Update Chitchat
« Reply #2739 on: September 27, 2017, 01:08:21 PM »


If that's the case, then the cure that they found, a cure that simultaneously stops the physical signs of the disease but also causes brain death, could have been a form of Soul Amputation. Think Golden Compass. How they could have done this, I don't know, but all these ghosts could in fact be souls that have been artificially separated from their body and more or less condemned to a sort of earthly Limbo. With the soul out of the body, if the infection is indeed caused by a corruption of the soul, then the body would no longer be affected.


Must point out, that ghosts are at least partially material. They clearly don't like sunlight - considering that they are unable to cross even the small parts of illuminated area, the ultraviolet is probably VERY harmful to them (which shouldn't be a problem for completely non-coporeal creature). Also, they obviously have some movement restrictions - they are actually forced to walk across the distances (and not particulary fast) and it seems that they aren't able to detach from surface for long (i.e. they could jump, but they could not fly), so the gravity seems to work on them too.

And, there is also the "black speech" on the radio. It looks like the ghosts are actually emanating on radiowaves... which, again, are physical objects.

Vafhudr

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Re: Latest Page Discussions/Comic Update Chitchat
« Reply #2740 on: September 27, 2017, 01:16:38 PM »
Must point out, that ghosts are at least partially material. They clearly don't like sunlight - considering that they are unable to cross even the small parts of illuminated area, the ultraviolet is probably VERY harmful to them (which shouldn't be a problem for completely non-coporeal creature). Also, they obviously have some movement restrictions - they are actually forced to walk across the distances (and not particulary fast) and it seems that they aren't able to detach from surface for long (i.e. they could jump, but they could not fly), so the gravity seems to work on them too.

And, there is also the "black speech" on the radio. It looks like the ghosts are actually emanating on radiowaves... which, again, are physical objects.

In this case my spiritual and physical dichotomy is inadequate, because it is clear that soul, spirits and so on have a definite physicality to them. Or at the very least, it actively interacts with physical things.

Or rather, when I say spiritual, it should not be read as immaterial. It has some sort of consistency to it - it's just not physical in the traditional sense.
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Dilandu

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Re: Latest Page Discussions/Comic Update Chitchat
« Reply #2741 on: September 27, 2017, 01:35:31 PM »
In this case my spiritual and physical dichotomy is inadequate, because it is clear that soul, spirits and so on have a definite physicality to them. Or at the very least, it actively interacts with physical things.

Or rather, when I say spiritual, it should not be read as immaterial. It has some sort of consistency to it - it's just not physical in the traditional sense.

This is so confusing...  O_O And probably impossible to explain without quantum effects (which are almost as bad as no explanation at all)...

JoB

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Re: Latest Page Discussions/Comic Update Chitchat
« Reply #2742 on: September 27, 2017, 01:43:52 PM »
Eventually there wouldn't have been enough living left to deal with hauling dead bodies off to the morgue.
Well, of course, or else the expedition wouldn't have had any bodies to find outside the morgues in the first place. Nonetheless, as long as you can bring ill people to be stuffed into the beds for treatment, you want to remove occupants that are beyond help from that many beds as well.

Er, on the page [ 418, actually ] the note, left by medical personnel ninety years ago clearly states that they considered their patients at least formally alive and (at least in theory) capable of waking up. So, at least their vital functions remained.
Whether the writer was actually medical personnel is unclear - Amalienborg is [in our time and reality] a royal palace, with a royal guard complete with capacities to perform emergency treatment to be sure, but not a medical facility, or likely to be converted into a public makeshift one. Also, when you give out a last-ditch-effort medication, it might not be wise to tell the palace guard that said medication is rather likely to make him actually commit regicide. ;)

However, the important part here is that the note states outright what the reason was for the non-ill to leave in spite of the ill still being alive at that time: They were running out of food and had to go looking for more, and apparently did not return though they wanted to.

And what if the Kastellet ghosts knew, that they actually WERE abandoned to death by the peoples who were supposed to protect them and care after them. Ninety years of nothing better to do than just feel betrayed and lost... pretty enough for anybody to develope at least some grunge against humanity as whole.
That's certainly a possibility, and has been discussed before. Also, Kastellet was/is the headquarters of the Danish homeland defense and one of the Danish intelligence agencies, which is a little less of a philantropic community from the get-go ...
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Dilandu

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Re: Latest Page Discussions/Comic Update Chitchat
« Reply #2743 on: September 27, 2017, 01:50:26 PM »

However, the important part here is that the note states outright what the reason was for the non-ill to leave in spite of the ill still being alive at that time: They were running out of food and had to go looking for more, and apparently did not return though they wanted to.


That's exactly what I means)

That's certainly a possibility, and has been discussed before. Also, Kastellet was/is the headquarters of the Danish homeland defense and one of the Danish intelligence agencies, which is a little less of a philantropic community from the get-go ...

Also possible, but frankly, I doubt that Kastellet's ghosts are chasing the crew just because they didn't have proper papers to cross the borders. And it is clearly unclear (sorry for the pun) how much exactly ghosts mantain of their human personality. Currently we have only two ghosts, capable of more or less intelligent communications - A and Sleipnope - and both of them aren't exactly average ghosts (not to mention that Sleipnope is actually a geshtalt, and it may boost its brain activity a bit).

Vafhudr

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Re: Latest Page Discussions/Comic Update Chitchat
« Reply #2744 on: September 27, 2017, 02:07:38 PM »
Probably not much personality or humanity left. Whatever they had as probably decayed into pretty basic emotions, reflected in their own formlessness.
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