Author Topic: General Discussion Thread  (Read 2302800 times)

Róisín

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17700 on: October 12, 2017, 11:02:13 AM »
*Immoderate mirth*
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MR_PLINKETT

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17701 on: October 12, 2017, 02:22:25 PM »
Hey! I resemble that remark!

(I am a redditor, but like to think I'm one of the house trained ones ;) )

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thorny

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17702 on: October 12, 2017, 02:55:45 PM »
Since people were discussing the Viking conversion to Christianity, I thought I'd throw in this article about signs that some of them were interested in other directions:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41567391
Why did Vikings have 'Allah' embroidered into funeral clothes?

Quote
Researchers in Sweden have found Arabic characters woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves. The discovery raises new questions about the influence of Islam in Scandinavia, writes journalist Tharik Hussain.

-- more in the article.

GunmanRex

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17703 on: October 12, 2017, 06:04:20 PM »
Since people were discussing the Viking conversion to Christianity, I thought I'd throw in this article about signs that some of them were interested in other directions:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41567391
Why did Vikings have 'Allah' embroidered into funeral clothes?

-- more in the article.
Interesting, though I don't wholly agree with some of the theories the writer makes.
One of them being this: "However, it is more likely these findings show that Viking age burial customs were influenced by Islamic ideas such as eternal life in paradise after death."
Is the writer saying that the vikings got the idea of Valhalla from Islam?

I do agree, however, that some of the burials may have been Muslims. I do not believe it was uncommon for foreigners to be welcomed by the Norse. In fact, one of the writings we have about viking funerary traditions was written by a Muslim man. Though some of the materials could be explained by the vikings either trading or raiding (vikings did raid and die in the Levant, at least) for the textiles.

I'm also now reminded of a CK2 achievement called "Viking Ummah" where you have to have a capital with a Norse culture and an Islamic religion.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 06:11:26 PM by GunmanRex »
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Róisín

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17704 on: October 12, 2017, 06:10:12 PM »
I knew about the coins, jewels, cups etc found in graves, also that Byzantine fabrics had turned up in Nordic graves, and had presumed it was due to the ongoing contact with Constantinople (the Varangians and such). The old world had more trade and travel than you might think. Have you seen anything on the subject by Tim Dawson? I know he was writing about it at one point.

Edit: Rex, was that the Arabic doctor who was travelling in the north? And some of the artefacts may have been taken in payment by mercenaries, brought back from raids or acquired along with foreign brides, or given in payment by amber traders. The Baltic amber trade was quite important.

The Viking gods were not exclusive, and some soldiers in Constantinople practised both faiths.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 06:16:37 PM by Róisín »
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GunmanRex

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17705 on: October 12, 2017, 07:08:27 PM »
Edit: Rex, was that the Arabic doctor who was travelling in the north? And some of the artefacts may have been taken in payment by mercenaries, brought back from raids or acquired along with foreign brides, or given in payment by amber traders. The Baltic amber trade was quite important.

The Viking gods were not exclusive, and some soldiers in Constantinople practised both faiths.
I think so. I can't remember exactly where I saw the writing, or who wrote it, but I do remember it. Arabic doctors were everywhere back then, seeing as how the Middle East was having its golden age of science during our dark ages.

I have no problem with the idea of the Norse practicing Islam either as their central religion or in a bit of syncretism. Gods, I hate using the word "pagan," but the pagan religions seem to have been apparently quite friendly towards other religions. Which might have sadly cost them. Either that or the Abrahamic religions are just very good at converting people, or were just very lucky.

I digress, the only problem I have with the article is that the quoted scientist, Larsson, seems to insinuate that the idea of a paradise after death was borrowed from Islam. It's possible, but I think that the idea of a paradise afterlife is a core idea of religion since... well, not the earliest (the Babylonians had a sad, depressing afterlife), but for a long time

I think I should stop making walls of text.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 10:15:54 PM by GunmanRex »
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Purple Wyrm

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17706 on: October 12, 2017, 07:49:21 PM »
I asked god to show me hot singles. He showed me r/atheism.

You have my sympathies.
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Róisín

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17707 on: October 12, 2017, 11:52:39 PM »
Plinkett, that's sad. May future attempts prosper better.

Rex, as you say, that was a period of history when Islamic doctors were everywhere, both because they were generally very good, and because having one was a major status symbol.

And speaking as a real-life pagan, I would agree that very few of our gods are at all exclusive. Part of the reason why the Abrahamic religions prevailed was that they were more prepared to do conquest and violence in the name of religion, and to co-opt the trappings of religion into their empire building. Plus the factor that many pagan rulers and clergy let Christian missionaries into their countries either not realising what they were doing there, or thinking there was no harm in it, because people would follow the inclinations of their souls. (Why am I reminded of modern politics?). I know that when the advent of Christians was discussed in the Welsh and Irish courts, the idea emerged that since these people had a triune god, how bad could they be? After all, many of the British pagans of the period had a triune goddess.....And of course, the conquerors get to write the history.

Also, 'pagan', in its original usage, just meant country people, those close to the land, as opposed to cityfolk, and acquired the religious connotations gradually, because most of those who were what we would call pagan, were country people. And yeah, many pre-Christian and pre-Islamic folk had a 'paradise afterlife' (or in the case of Celtic pagans, a 'paradise betweenlife', because sooner or later you had to go out and be born again). The word 'paradise' originally meant just an enclosed safe space, particularly an enclosed garden.
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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17708 on: October 13, 2017, 12:31:48 AM »
Also, 'pagan', in its original usage, just meant country people, those close to the land, as opposed to cityfolk

Yes, from the latin 'pagus' meaning 'village'. The Anglo-Saxon equivalent is 'heathen', meaning a person who lives on the heath.
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Athena

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17709 on: October 13, 2017, 12:55:51 AM »
I don't have much to add to the conversation, but I have to say, I've learned so much already about history, language, and religion just reading through it. This is why I love this forum! Such interesting people you all are! ^-^
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GunmanRex

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17710 on: October 13, 2017, 12:15:57 PM »
I don't have much to add to the conversation, but I have to say, I've learned so much already about history, language, and religion just reading through it. This is why I love this forum! Such interesting people you all are! ^-^
I love that this grew out of an off-handed comment about Leif Erikson.
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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17711 on: October 16, 2017, 06:33:18 PM »
Since people were discussing the Viking conversion to Christianity, I thought I'd throw in this article about signs that some of them were interested in other directions:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41567391
Why did Vikings have 'Allah' embroidered into funeral clothes?

-- more in the article.
So this might not be entirely true it seems.
https://twitter.com/stephenniem/status/919897406031978496
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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17712 on: October 17, 2017, 09:04:40 AM »
I mean, even if it did spell out Allah, I would not immediately consider it a sign of religiosity. More like he got himself buried with his finest foreign and exotic clothes.
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Róisín

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17713 on: October 17, 2017, 10:43:54 AM »
True enough, Vafhudr. Also, the place of religion in the lives of folk of those times was not what it is now. Most people simply weren't as exclusive in their religion as we are.
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MR_PLINKETT

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17714 on: October 18, 2017, 02:05:36 AM »
History double major rant incoming because I have no where else to post this.
Spoiler: show
Studying history has made me angry at my old self and so many people who hold the view point that religion held science back in the middle ages.  The middle ages weren't a by product of Christianity but rather a byproduct of the collapse of Rome and losing thousands of years of knowledge with it. and the catholic church didn't repress science in the middle ages; They're the reason so much knowledge survived the collapse of the roman empire and kept it around. Plus bishops/priests/monks were actively perusing science in the middle ages but many new age intellectuals love to say that Rome is the enemy of reason/scientific progress. I always cringe at that one graph of 'here look! If it weren't for Christians we'd have space elevators now! hurrrr' so much intellectual dishonesty. And it makes me angry because this is a common view point among every single person I've ever asked about the church in the middle ages. 

And it blows my mind to this day people will accept that the church hated science when it's not even true. And so many people hold this view its scary. All they need to disprove this is a simple medieval studies course and maybe things might start changing.


/end angry history nerd raeg
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 02:39:36 AM by MR_PLINKETT »