Author Topic: General Discussion Thread  (Read 2350079 times)

Ragnarok

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17670 on: October 10, 2017, 07:21:38 AM »

Another myth is that people uphold Vikings as great warriors. But when they went against real drilled armies they got annihilated. They were only good at killing women, children, and monks who couldn't fight back.


Battles? Only one I can recall is Stamford (or Stanford) Bridge, and that's because someone had to be stabbed in the unmentionables to get to the actual battle.
Makes sense though, difference between warriors and soldiers. Warriors will always lose against a cohesive force.
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thorny

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17671 on: October 10, 2017, 10:22:27 AM »
his Spanish employers were the ones who truly settled America.

No they weren't.

It was already settled when they got here; and had been for quite a long time.

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GunmanRex

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17672 on: October 10, 2017, 11:30:52 AM »
Battles? Only one I can recall is Stamford (or Stanford) Bridge, and that's because someone had to be stabbed in the unmentionables to get to the actual battle.
Makes sense though, difference between warriors and soldiers. Warriors will always lose against a cohesive force.
Stamford is an excellent example of just how effective vikings were at the time. Hardrada's army was caught unaware, with the Anglo-Saxon army originally being more then double their size. They still managed to hold with a shield wall and remove ~half the AS army. This is a very nice example, as both of the armies were pretty much comprised solely of infantry. What won was largely equipment and tactics. Hardrada's axemen could rend the armor of the time, and the defensive shield tactics worked stunningly well.

However, later vikings had less effect vs. the Norman style cavalry charge (You know, when England did what it always does and just became a different people, the French, this time). Time has shown again and again that tactics are what matter. Even equipment doesn't matter vs. better tactics. Such as during the Vietnam War when the US couldn't deal with the hardcore guerrilla tactics of the Vietcong.

But this doesn't matter, what we should focus on from the viking age is that fact that Norsemen settled much of the Northern Atlantic and created legacies that have lasted into the modern day. The vikings created a vast trade network and had ties to many of the superpowers of the medieval world, even the Byzantines had a corps of Norsemen and their descendants. I think... Swedish settles interbred with Eastern Europeans, essentially starting the Rus, the legacy which eventually formed into Russia. The vikings interbred with pretty much everyone in the British Isles, and certainly had some blood mixing in the rest of Europe.

tl;dr The vikings were decent fights, but the focus shouldn't be on the legend of berserk north-men and the fear of longships on the horizon, but the fact that from the 9th to the 11th century, the vikings were the greatest mariners of the time, created a legacy of early colonization, and had a profound impact on all of Europe that continues to this day.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 11:35:01 AM by GunmanRex »
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Ragnarok

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17673 on: October 10, 2017, 12:05:35 PM »
even the Byzantines had a corps of Norsemen and their descendants. I think... Swedish settles interbred with Eastern Europeans, essentially starting the Rus, the legacy which eventually formed into Russia.

The Varangian Guard, initially started as a troop tithe from the Rus (so yes, Russian Vikings), and famous for wielding two-handed axes into combat. Altogether awesome people.
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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17674 on: October 10, 2017, 12:19:43 PM »
Christianity reached into Scandinavia by then, but had it really taken hold?
SatW might not be academic research, but this one (minus the horned helmets, of course) is pretty correct - not that any conversion of a tribe to Christianity ever happened overnight. Or, thinking of current-day Iceland and Finland in particular, that it'll sweep through every single tribesman's mind, even if he's several generations down the line.

But we were talking about Leif in particular - who converted to Christianity and was given the task to bring it to Greenland during his stay in Norway, before discovering Vinland.
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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17675 on: October 10, 2017, 01:24:39 PM »
SatW might not be academic research, but this one (minus the horned helmets, of course) is pretty correct - not that any conversion of a tribe to Christianity ever happened overnight. Or, thinking of current-day Iceland and Finland in particular, that it'll sweep through every single tribesman's mind, even if he's several generations down the line.

But we were talking about Leif in particular - who converted to Christianity and was given the task to bring it to Greenland during his stay in Norway, before discovering Vinland.

This is great ;D
On the topic of converting and religions replacing each other, I think there's also a word to be said about how pretty much all European Christian celebrations are a thin veneer of Jesus over very old, pagan customs. Religions often don't cleanly replace each other but instead blend together. There's nothing really Christian about dying eggs or decorating trees or wearing masks and making the most amount of noise possible as spring approaches, yet somehow most Europeans used to do this until a couple of generations ago, and some still do (some of you might remember the photo series of folk masks I shared here a while ago). Belonging to a religion or another is not as clean cut as some make it to be. Like Róisín said, it often was (and still is) a political decision and may or may not have anything to do with the person's real beliefs or morality. So I'm not sure why Leif's religion is interesting to us right now, but hey.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 01:29:16 PM by Sc0ut »

GunmanRex

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17676 on: October 10, 2017, 01:38:48 PM »
This is great ;D
On the topic of converting and religions replacing each other, I think there's also a word to be said about how pretty much all European Christian celebrations are a thin veneer of Jesus over very old, pagan customs.
I remember reading something about how that was why Christianity was able to spread relatively quickly. The best example for myself is the celtic cross. They took a previous design and merged it with their own imagery.
Belonging to a religion or another is not as clean cut as some make it to be. Like Róisín said, it often was (and still is) a political decision and may or may not have anything to do with the person's real beliefs or morality. So I'm not sure why Leif's religion is interesting to us right now, but hey.
 
I'm always reminded of the formation of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Where the Lithuanian Grand Duke at the time converted so that he could marry the Polish Queen/King and be safe from his eastern neighbors. As in, the Polish had him sign a contract to convert and encourage others to do so. Something about that actually makes me chuckle a little bit.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 01:51:32 PM by GunmanRex »
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Sc0ut

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17677 on: October 10, 2017, 01:55:49 PM »
I'm always reminded of the formation of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Where the Lithuanian Grand Duke at the time converted so that he could marry the Polish Queen/King and be safe from his eastern neighbors.

Oh absolutely. My comment was not supposed to be read as "religion is never relevant" - it was obviously important for Leif, at that time. Religion influenced a great deal of history overall. I'm just not sure why it was brought up in conversation without context right now. (Though people bring things up without context all the time here, so it's no big deal anyway)

GunmanRex

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17678 on: October 10, 2017, 02:52:01 PM »
Oh absolutely. My comment was not supposed to be read as "religion is never relevant" - it was obviously important for Leif, at that time. Religion influenced a great deal of history overall. I'm just not sure why it was brought up in conversation without context right now. (Though people bring things up without context all the time here, so it's no big deal anyway)
Oh, I hope It didn't look like I was saying that, sorry if it did. I think that religion is very relevant to history.



On a side note, SSSS has been discovered by 4chan, /tg/ in particular. They've now set out to try and convert the world in a pen-and-paper rpg, that and discuss how Australia might have survived/been re-colonized, and make maps for survivor states. Anyway, the main point is that a homebrew pnp SSSS game might exist at some point in the future, maybe. Which would be neat. What does the forum think about that?

Someone also posted this, I'm sure someone'll like this, if someone already hasn't put this here.
Spoiler: show
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 03:09:50 PM by GunmanRex »
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Solokov

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17679 on: October 10, 2017, 03:38:53 PM »
*questions the wisdom of this*  *runs away*

Wait.... are you questioning the wisdom of Solomon or me?.... because I have different reactions based on the answer.



On a side note, SSSS has been discovered by 4chan, /tg/ in particular. They've now set out to try and convert the world in a pen-and-paper rpg, that and discuss how Australia might have survived/been re-colonized, and make maps for survivor states. Anyway, the main point is that a homebrew pnp SSSS game might exist at some point in the future, maybe. Which would be neat. What does the forum think about that?

Someone also posted this, I'm sure someone'll like this, if someone already hasn't put this here.
Spoiler: show


Note, eventually that 4chan link will die when the thread is eventually purged from the archive, you might want to save and re-up that somewhere else like Imgur (my go to would have been photobucket but they've decided to get greedy)

Also, I have absolutely no problem with this. /tg/ has done nothing to earn my ire and I look foreward to see what homebrew monstrosity they cook up.
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Sc0ut

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17680 on: October 10, 2017, 04:05:03 PM »
I'm all for anyone making a game of any sort out of SSSS. Many brave people have tried, all have lost their live- I mean, got bored along the way. It sure has potential!

Also, the lalli-cat art was posted right here when it was fresh by its creator, Haiz, who used to be a legendary forum figure back in the day. It's nice to see it get the fame it deserves :) (if not the credit).

GunmanRex

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17681 on: October 10, 2017, 04:07:09 PM »
I'm all for anyone making a game of any sort out of SSSS. Many brave people have tried, all have lost their live- I mean, got bored along the way. It sure has potential!

Also, the lalli-cat art was posted right here when it was fresh by its creator, Haiz, who used to be a legendary forum figure back in the day. It's nice to see it get the fame it deserves :) (if not the credit).
Well, fear not. It will now last forever as it will be perpetually posted in every thread.
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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17682 on: October 10, 2017, 04:52:01 PM »
Oh, I hope It didn't look like I was saying that, sorry if it did. I think that religion is very relevant to history.



On a side note, SSSS has been discovered by 4chan, /tg/ in particular. They've now set out to try and convert the world in a pen-and-paper rpg, that and discuss how Australia might have survived/been re-colonized, and make maps for survivor states. Anyway, the main point is that a homebrew pnp SSSS game might exist at some point in the future, maybe. Which would be neat. What does the forum think about that?

Someone also posted this, I'm sure someone'll like this, if someone already hasn't put this here.
Spoiler: show


>/tg/
thank god. They get s*** done.

At least it wasn't /pol/ who got hold of this comic.They would ruin it.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 05:11:01 PM by MR_PLINKETT »

Ragnarok

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17683 on: October 10, 2017, 05:03:08 PM »
>/tg/
thank god. They get s*** done.

At least it wasn't the /pol/ fags who got hold of this comic.They would ruin it.

Trust me. It could be far, far worse than that.
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Yuuago

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #17684 on: October 10, 2017, 05:09:37 PM »
>/tg/
thank god. They get s*** done.

At least it wasn't the /pol/ (redacted) who got hold of this comic.They would ruin it.

Can you not with the homophobic slang, please
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 05:13:45 PM by Yuuago »
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