General Discussion Thread

[MR_PLINKETT]

>people major in english
>wounder why they can't find a job

Why are people like this. Like what drives a person to get a usless degree.

[Róisín]

'It's impossible to learn all the facts in the universe'....sadly, that is true. When I was a very small child, I solemnly set out to learn everything. Everything. I worked out, I think when I was somewhere between four and five years old, that this was impossible. I was devastated. I cried for a week, to the puzzlement of my adults, because I was normally a fairly easygoing kid. Then I picked myself up and determined to learn everything it was possible for me to learn. I'm still working on that.

But yeah, learning how to learn, how to retain information, how to understand and analyse the things learned, and how to work out whether the information is true, where the information fits, and where it leads - those are the vital skills.

I truly hate the way much 'education' seems designed to kill the desire to learn. I remember having this discussion with a couple of my great-nieces, when they were covering Shakespeare in high school. They were convinced his work was boring and pointless. That one I was able to circumvent, by introducing them to Kenneth Branagh's interpretation of Henry V, persuading them to read the sonnets aloud, and explaining enough about the history and language that the subject began to make sense to them, but we ancient relatives can only do so much.

And as you say, education, and educators, are extremely variable. I have seen examples from both ends of the spectrum.

And Plinkett: it used to be that getting a degree in *anything* was valuable, because it showed that you had been taught to think analytically. Sadly, that is no longer necessarily so.

[Vafhudr]

Or the pleasures and problem of trying to make a personal process a group activity.

The bigger and more disparate in levels the group is, the less the information can be personal or contextualized.

Learning is best done alone, one-on-one with a mentor, or in small groups of children with roughly the same level of competence under a good tutor or guide.

[thorny]

>people major in english
>wounder why they can't find a job

Why are people like this. Like what drives a person to get a usless degree.

1) They very likely don't think it's useless. People do get jobs with English degrees -- not as many as in some fields, but more than, say, become professional sports stars.

2) There are two entirely different reasons to go to college. Some people manage to combine them. But the theory that people go to college only to get a job, not in order to learn something, is actually relatively new.

3) As Róisín says: the training, education, and persistence necessary to get a degree in English, or in whatever other field(s) you're thinking of as useless, is likely to translate into skills likely to be useful elsewhere.

4) Whatever field one takes a degree in, there's no guarantee that work in that field will be highly available by the time one actually applies for a job in it -- let alone that the person with the degree will find that they personally do well in that field, or can stand to keep working in it long-term without developing major problems.

'It's impossible to learn all the facts in the universe'....sadly, that is true.

That's not sad, that's joyous! Think about this: suppose you could learn everything in the universe. And you accomplished that this Thursday. What would you do Friday, and for the rest of your life? Nothing left to learn. Never a new book to read. Never an unfamiliar plant to try growing, or tasting. Never a new comics page to wait for . . .

Learning is best done alone, one-on-one with a mentor, or in small groups of children with roughly the same level of competence under a good tutor or guide.

Probably depends on the person learning, and on the subject.

But I think there's considerable evidence that some, at least, learn best in groups of mixed competence, in which (under the guidance of teacher(s)) the more advanced teach the less advanced.

And I've learned a good deal, myself, both from having to frame explanations for other people, and from hearing perspectives of others, including sometimes others relatively new to the subject.

[Anarchdovey]

So first snows came. I hope this year there will be lot of it. It seems every year there is less of it.

[Sc0ut]

I've just discovered the work of Deborah Butterfield and needed to share with you all. Check out her sculptures here and you might find the cousins of a moose we know and don't exactly love: http://www.artnet.com/artists/deborah-butterfield/

So first snows came. I hope this year there will be lot of it. It seems every year there is less of it.

Hurray for snow! I also wish for a lot of it, may it happen this year.

[Róisín]

Thorny, good points! I'm a person who learns best by myself or with a mentor, but a small mixed group also works well, especially if there is enough variation so that the less skilled benefit by being helped by the more advanced students, as in a one-room bush school. (Lots of experience with those!). It's good to have a range of ways of learning.

And an English degree is, among other things, a start on becoming an English teacher, which is a useful profession.

I went to university on a Commonwealth scholarship, for which I had to sit competitive examinations, because I would never have been able to afford it otherwise. I did that because I really, really wanted to learn. My majors were botany and geology, and I've been able to make a living from them, but I've known many people who did English and make a living from that, including teachers, writers and a couple of singer-songwriters. There are lots of ways to use any degree, even if you have to start out working at McDonalds while you search for work in your field.

Some people just aren't made for academe, and I would like to see more and better vocational education for them. Because if we go on as we are, 'neither our logic nor our plumbing will hold water'.

[Vafhudr]

The problem I encountered was that the disparity was so large within the class that there was in fact no class being taught - the teacher had to spend the larger part of their time managing rowdy or special needs students then actually teaching.

[Róisín]

Vafhudr, I can see that being a major problem. The bush schools I knew got around it by setting aside time for older students to have the teacher's attention, then the younger ones, then the older kids would help the little ones for awhile. But it sounds as if your group was both too big and too undisciplined to make that work well. It's a hard balance.

[thorny]

The problem I encountered was that the disparity was so large within the class that there was in fact no class being taught - the teacher had to spend the larger part of their time managing rowdy or special needs students then actually teaching.

Separating out the rowdy students, depending on why they're being rowdy, may make sense (though the school should also be trying to find out and if possible do something about the reasons for the rowdiness.) Separating out the special needs students has its downsides. But expecting one teacher to handle a mix like that does seem unreasonable; and the resulting situation indeed likely to be unfair to all the students.

Some places deal with such situations by adding more teachers -- as many as one teacher or aide for every special needs student. Depending on the type of need, of course, that many may not be necessary.

[JoB]

Think about this: suppose you could learn everything in the universe. And you accomplished that this Thursday. What would you do Friday, and for the rest of your life?

This may be splitting hairs, but technically, having acquired knowledge does not equal experience (both as in having experienced the topic, and having lots of experience working with it). You'ld live a life of applying your knowledge, which, I'ld guess, is something that real world people spend a lot (just not 100%) of time doing, too.

[Róisín]

JoB, that's pretty much it. I'd set myself to being useful. Pretty much what I do now. Only with a bigger starting database.

[viola]

Who even knew this was still possible?? I'm having childhood flashbacks.

[GunmanRex]

I was looking back at history, especially whilst playing historical games, I realized something. The twin powers of Austria-Hungary and Ottoman Empire were rivals throughout most of their shared history, constantly fighting each other, vying for land and power. Their struggles lasted from the 1500s to the 1700s, and tension remained present for long after. Until, due to odd chances and events, these two powers became allies during World War 1. Two rivals fighting on the same side, in a war which ultimately brought them low and dissolved their time-honored countries.
I just felt that this was... bittersweet, in a way.

[Hrollo]

I was looking back at history, especially whilst playing historical games, I realized something. The twin powers of Austria-Hungary and Ottoman Empire were rivals throughout most of their shared history, constantly fighting each other, vying for land and power. Their struggles lasted from the 1500s to the 1700s, and tension remained present for long after. Until, due to odd chances and events, these two powers became allies during World War 1. Two rivals fighting on the same side, in a war which ultimately brought them low and dissolved their time-honored countries.
I just felt that this was... bittersweet, in a way.

You can say exactly the same thing about France and the UK on the winning side.