Survivor communities outside the known world

[urbicande]

Minimize exposure (as in, throw in a narrow band-pass filter to prevent most of the black speech from coming out of the speaker in the first place), yes. Minimize total time, no. Unless you're a rather experienced operator, the speed of Morse is measured in tens of letters per minute; there's a reason why virtually all those strange abbreviations (CQ DE DD0KZ PSE K QSY 5K UP) were originally invented for use in Morse.

Absolutely, and there's no reason to expect that would go away (if nothing else, long CW conversations are *tedious*).

And then there's RTTY, which doesn't take much more bandwidth than plain old morse (and not all that high of  a tech level either)

[JoB]

And then there's RTTY, which doesn't take much more bandwidth than plain old morse (and not all that high of  a tech level either)

Come to think of it, there's lots of simple-tech modes where no human needs to actually listen to the transmission in the first place ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticker_tape
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellschreiber

[Koeshi]

@Divra: First about the argument of Morse being a specialised skillset. While I will not deny that you need some training to become proficient in the use of Morse code, the knowledge to decipher it should be widely present. The reason for this is simple: Morse code was the first usefull way of transmitting message via electric signals, and is therefor often used as an example in books about electricity, also it is part of almost every printed encyclopedia(omitted only in specialized encyclopedias like those for biology and chemistry), it can be found in many adventure novels as part of the plot. As an example I have no less then FOUR books in my shelves that contain translation tables for morse, two of them are novels, one is an encyclopedia and the last is a childrens book about electricity. So I can savely assume that not only people will know that there is something like Morse, but I can also say that people will know how to decipher such a message. Second about the problems of our heroes getting a message to Malmö. These are propably due to the fact that voice transmissions require a considerable bandwidth(at least 3000-4000 Hz). If they used Morse they would only need a bandwidth of no more then 10 Hz which would boost there effective range considerably, how much greatly depends on there carrier frequency. This brings me to the point of global broadcasting. For a given carrier frequency and transmitter power the range is in a inverse relation to bandwidth. That means if you reduce the bandwidth of your signal you increase its range and vice versa. And for the possible power of transmitters, already in the 1930s broadcasts were made with a power reaching several hundred of kilowatts and there is nothing which says you can't build transmitters in the megawatt range. Therefor it is save to say that it should be possible for every community with sufficient ressource to build a station that could punch through all interferences and let the rest of the world know that they life. And I have not even started with the possibilities other radio bands offer.
With all this in mind the question remains: Why is the rest of the world silent?

-.-.-   - .... .. ...   -- . ... ... .- --. .   .-- .- ...   -... .-. --- ..- --. .... -   - ---   -.-- --- ..-   -... ...-   ... .- -- ..- . .-..   -- --- .-. ... .   .-.-. .-....

Edit 1: corrected typo in the morse sequence

Even if the facilities exist in these cut off locations there is still the language barrier issue.  Using Japan as an example, what is the chance that they have fluent Icelandic speakers in the year 90 or vice versa.  Unless you have someone who is able to translate the morse code and then once it is written down, recognise what language it is in and be able to translate it, it is useless.  And even if you somehow manage to fulfil all those requirements, what use is it to correspond with someone a world a way that you have no hope of ever reaching?

.- .-.. ... --- --··--     -- --- .-. ... .     -.-. --- -.. .     .. ...     - . -.. .. --- ..- ...     ---··· .--.

[Divra]

Even if the facilities exist in these cut off locations there is still the language barrier issue.  Using Japan as an example, what is the chance that they have fluent Icelandic speakers in the year 90 or vice versa.  Unless you have someone who is able to translate the morse code and then once it is written down, recognise what language it is in and be able to translate it, it is useless.  And even if you somehow manage to fulfil all those requirements, what use is it to correspond with someone a world a way that you have no hope of ever reaching?

.- .-.. ... --- --··--     -- --- .-. ... .     -.-. --- -.. .     .. ...     - . -.. .. --- ..- ...     ---··· .--.

Just knowing that there is someone else out there would be a huge morale boost to an isolated community. That said, I don't think any society is going to throw their limited resources at long-distance comms.

[JoB]

Even if the facilities exist in these cut off locations there is still the language barrier issue.  Using Japan as an example, what is the chance that they have fluent Icelandic speakers in the year 90 or vice versa.

That raises the question of a) how downright extinct are the "Old World languages" actually (there's a footnote in the language tree page saying that some specialized skalds keep the knowledge available so as to be able to decipher old documents), and b) would they actually have lost them that much all the same in Y90 if they had established contact at a reasonable time (not Y90, rather sometime while the Y0 survivors and their knowledge were still available)?

Also, they seem to have a radio range issue well within the range of their language skills (in particular, between NO, SE, and DK).

And even if you somehow manage to fulfil all those requirements, what use is it to correspond with someone a world a way that you have no hope of ever reaching?

Coordinating the worldwide efforts to find a vaccine or cure (or to announce the instructions once one is found) doesn't require the researchers to meet in person. FWIW, improving one's skills in a foreign language doesn't, either. There's also stuff (notably, books) where a facsimile will go a long way.

[Divra]

Coordinating the worldwide efforts to find a vaccine or cure (or to announce the instructions once one is found) doesn't require the researchers to meet in person.

Which assumes that there are other places still doing that kind of research. Remember, the Nordics got off light due to having Iceland's knowledge and manufacturing base come through more-or-less unscathed, and the Nordics also have a huge advantage in having iron- and copper mines, and do not depend on scavenging troll-infested ruins for metal.

[urbicande]

And even if you somehow manage to fulfil all those requirements, what use is it to correspond with someone a world a way that you have no hope of ever reaching?

Don't ask any of the people doing SETI research that question.

[JoB]

Which assumes that there are other places still doing that kind of research. Remember, the Nordics got off light due to having Iceland's knowledge and manufacturing base come through more-or-less unscathed, and the Nordics also have a huge advantage in having iron- and copper mines, and do not depend on scavenging troll-infested ruins for metal.

This entire thread works on the assumption that whatever protected the Nordics was not exactly limited to them. And that, quite to the contrary, certain basic facts (like the Y0 immunity rate) apply the world over.

Assume for a moment that the initial patients - the refugees arriving in Spain - had come from Africa and that their society may have had previous encounters with the Rash, building up a noticeably higher immunity rate. Add the current "fashion" of sending garbage - up to entire ships to be scrapped - to third world countries, with their low wages and virtually nonexistent environment protection. Finally add those who went studying medicine in the First World and returned to their home countries to help building a healthcare system there when the Rash hit. I wouldn't want to bet any money on who's going to research circles around whom in Y90.

Don't ask any of the people doing SETI research that question.

Why not? Serious SETI guys are very much aware that the EM spectrum they're looking at takes centuries, if not more, to travel one way, and that the most that'll happen within their lifetime is to discover that the other guys exist.

[Koeshi]

That raises the question of a) how downright extinct are the "Old World languages" actually (there's a footnote in the language tree page saying that some specialized skalds keep the knowledge available so as to be able to decipher old documents), and b) would they actually have lost them that much all the same in Y90 if they had established contact at a reasonable time (not Y90, rather sometime while the Y0 survivors and their knowledge were still available)?

Also, they seem to have a radio range issue well within the range of their language skills (in particular, between NO, SE, and DK).

Coordinating the worldwide efforts to find a vaccine or cure (or to announce the instructions once one is found) doesn't require the researchers to meet in person. FWIW, improving one's skills in a foreign language doesn't, either. There's also stuff (notably, books) where a facsimile will go a long way.

Even if the language is not completely extinct, what are the chances that a radio operator will receive the message and decide to record it for a skald to review it, rather than dismiss it as Troll static?

Another requirement to add then, willingness to put scientific documents through morse code, the operator will need fingers of steel

Don't ask any of the people doing SETI research that question.

That is a rather different situation.  SETI is an effort taking place for the indulgence of scientific curiosity in a time when it is unlikely that mankind could be forced to extinction within years if quarantine procedures fail.

[JoB]

Even if the language is not completely extinct, what are the chances that a radio operator will receive the message and decide to record it for a skald to review it, rather than dismiss it as Troll static?

Thank you for another argument why survivors might want to use Morse (assuming that the grosslings don't use it) instead of engaging in a shouting match with them ...

Also, of course you do a phase of "hello, anyone out there?" before running a "Scientific Mumbojumbian" broadcast.

Another requirement to add then, willingness to put scientific documents through morse code, the operator will need fingers of steel

*shrug* As it happens, all scientific papers I wrote went through my fingers and into electric switches at one point ...

[Koeshi]

Thank you for another argument why survivors might want to use Morse (assuming that the grosslings don't use it) instead of engaging in a shouting match with them ...

Actually I meant in morse, I assumed that we had stopped talking about voice communication at this point.  Sorry for not clarifying.

Also, of course you do a phase of "hello, anyone out there?" before running a "Scientific Mumbojumbian" broadcast.

Again, I took that to be obvious.  Not really sure how this relates to what you quoted though.

*shrug* As it happens, all scientific papers I wrote went through my fingers and into electric switches at one point ...

You used to send your papers using a straight key?  Or do you mean a keyboard?  Because the second is a lot less impressive.

[Divra]

This entire thread works on the assumption that whatever protected the Nordics was not exactly limited to them. And that, quite to the contrary, certain basic facts (like the Y0 immunity rate) apply the world over.

Assume for a moment that the initial patients - the refugees arriving in Spain - had come from Africa and that their society may have had previous encounters with the Rash, building up a noticeably higher immunity rate. Add the current "fashion" of sending garbage - up to entire ships to be scrapped - to third world countries, with their low wages and virtually nonexistent environment protection. Finally add those who went studying medicine in the First World and returned to their home countries to help building a healthcare system there when the Rash hit. I wouldn't want to bet any money on who's going to research circles around whom in Y90.

Again, you're making assumptions I'm not willing to make, like for example that these resources didn't end up in major cities (i.e. areas overrun by trolls), that medically trained personnel survived treating Rash victims, as well as that no-one died from more mundane diseases like typhoid, cholera or any number of other nasty diseases that come from large amounts of dead bodies, that there was someone able to co-ordinate the efforts, and that somewhere had a manufacturing base capable of constructing the lab facilities necessary.

My point is that most facilities (both in terms of labs and libraries) necessary to build up a biomedical research program will be situated in cities, i.e. areas that are at the greatest risk of pandemic outbreaks of both Rash Illness and other diseases, prone to widespread rioting when people realise what's going on, and later be highly dangerous areas due to troll infestation. Add to that the fact that these facilities will have people making pilgrimages there in hopes of a cure.. I'd say they are severely at risk, both from trolls and angry, scared people.

Also, libraries. Again libraries containing the necessary preliminary data to do this level of biomedicine is nothing your average doctor will know off the top of hir head. It requires some refreshing in a library which... guess again! Also stuck inside hot zones, most of them. Good luck salvaging that.

Now, could a facility with the labs and libraries necessary to do this survive somewhere? Maybe. Everything at this point is speculation.  However, allowing for that, there is also the matter of equipment. After 90 years, only the most rudimentary tools will be in working condition. Even replacing simple things like petri dishes and pipettes require a precision manufacturing base beyond most places in the world today, and manufacturing those requires a host of supporting industries.

Iceland, emphatically, has all these things. The University of Reikyavik's medical school survived. Several other research universities did as well, as did their libraries and labs. There is a manufacturing industry capable of supporting such endeavours, and one which does not have to jealously hoard and risk lives for rudimentary resources.

tl;dr: One GP in Tierra Del Fuego does not a state-of-the-art biomedical research program make.

[Snommelp]

Also, of course you do a phase of "hello, anyone out there?" before running a "Scientific Mumbojumbian" broadcast.

But the question is, if that "hello, anyone out there" is in Japanese (or even better, Wabun Code), would an Icelandic Morse code operator be able to understand it or even recognize it as a language? Or would they assume it's troll static?

Unless there's an actual, internationally recognized "hello, anyone out there," similar to how "SOS" is internationally recognized.

[urbicande]

Unless there's an actual, internationally recognized "hello, anyone out there," similar to how "SOS" is internationally recognized.

CQ has been in use for a very long time.  And even knowing that someone is transmitting would make the Silent World less silent.

(Other option, of course, is that the Silent World is NOT silent but the people who know it aren't saying anything)

[JoB]

Again, I took that to be obvious.  Not really sure how this relates to what you quoted though.

You spoke about the likelihood that the radio operator would "receive the message and decide to record it for a skald to review it". That's not what *I* would do when I receive a transmission that is a) obviously from humans, rather than grosslings, b) at a place where we had no idea humans survived in the first place, c) short enough to suggest that they're actually (still) searching for other humans and d) thus likely to vanish again if I don't answer their call right away.

You used to send your papers using a straight key?  Or do you mean a keyboard?  Because the second is a lot less impressive.

Then be prepared to be a lot less impressed ten seconds from now. Morse ops doing serious amounts of text didn't stick with the historic straight key, either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegraph_key
And the sender using a full keyboard to create a Morse transmission is not any more complicated than using a largely identical device to create the 5-bit characters of the abovementioned RTTY system.

My point is that most facilities (both in terms of labs and libraries) necessary to build up a biomedical research program will be situated in cities [...]
Iceland, emphatically, has all these things.

And that right there is proof that your point fails to prove anything.

Iceland was among the first nations to go into isolation. That, plus a series of facts (magic, old gods and beliefs, initial immunity rate) where we have NO FLEETIN' IDEA how much they apply to anywhere else in the world, formed the basis of their survival.

Also, from a global perspective, Iceland was geographically close to where the Rash initially broke out. They needed to be fast with isolating themselves, and might very well have fallen incommunicado at a point in time when other places in the world still had time to get their isolation going in the first place. And by "places", I'm explicitly acknowledging the possibility of a state/region instituting a lockdown against the will of the national government, further hindering the knowledge thereof getting out.

The truth is that with the knowledge we (and the post-Rash Nordics) have, other, sufficiently remote parts of the world can be ANYTHING from fully dead to just uninhabited to having a large but lo-tech human population to being literally covered with the invasion fleet of the evil aliens who released the Rash upon an unsuspecting mankind and are now staring scared stiff at some of those primitives who just up and survived their ultimate bioweapon.

But the question is, if that "hello, anyone out there" is in Japanese (or even better, Wabun Code), would an Icelandic Morse code operator be able to understand it or even recognize it as a language? Or would they assume it's troll static?

Well, that's first and foremost depending on what that troll static is like exactly. The stuff we've seen is radio speakers emitting what appears to be yelling in the local human languages; any radio op hearing that here and now (and not knowing about Rash and trolls and SSSS) would swear up and down that it IS humans trying to communicate in their spoken language.

Telling proper Morse from random interference is a no-brainer (certain Hollywood movies notwithstanding). Make your dits and dahs and the pauses between have the proper duration (dashes exactly three times as long as dots, etc. etc.) and it'll be pretty obvious that that's an artificial signal even before you transcoded from Morse to letters, much less wonder what language the resulting words might belong to.

Unless there's an actual, internationally recognized "hello, anyone out there," similar to how "SOS" is internationally recognized.

If I were trying to contact survivors of unknown familiarity with Morse in a postapocalyptic world, I would definitely add in some SOSs(*) early on even if there's no emergency at hand. CQ, QRRR, MAYDAY, group of Vs, etc. etc. are plain unrecognizable to the laymen.

(*) Note that the distress call SOS is different from the text "SOS" in Morse in that the character-separating pauses are omitted; ...---... instead of ... --- ... . Such established "shorthand" Morse "characters" are usually indicated by a line atop the run-together letters. And yes, SOS would be undistinguishable from EU7, if the latter were also established.