Author Topic: Finnish learning thread!  (Read 69130 times)

Bobriha

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #315 on: February 03, 2016, 08:18:17 AM »
Last weekend I and a friend of mine were walking near the town and I picked up some wild olive's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaeagnus_angustifolia branches that hares cut and left under the bush. And I decided to write a poem about those branches.

Minun pöydälläni on lasissa
kolme hopeapensaan varpua.
Helmikuu on aivan alussa
ja liukuvat ohitseni
päivät, tuulit, lumisadet.

Voinko minä sanoa varmasti,
että ikävystynyt jo olen talveen,
että kaipaan kyllä kevättä
nyt, suoraan pakkasen sielusta?
Että latvojen selvä etsaus,
että pihlajan marjoilla makaavat
nämä pöyheät valkoiset lakit
eivät iloa vie enää?

Niin sanon ”pian kevät tulee”
sekä ”pian sireenit kukkivat”,
kuin ”pian” merkitsisi ”huomenna”.
Niin katselen hiljaista aroa,
jolla hanki on kumara aaltoina,
kuin kangasvuokkojen idut
jo yltyleensä sillä näkyisivät
lumen rakeisen tahroja keskella.

Vaan huonessani, sen lämmössä,
kolmen hopeapensaan varpua
silmut ovat kai vähän paisuneet.
majavanainen

Sananjalka

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #316 on: February 04, 2016, 08:13:05 PM »
Spoiler: show
Minun pöydälläni on lasissa
kolme hopeapensaan varpua.
Helmikuu on aivan alussa
ja liukuvat ohitseni
päivät, tuulit, lumisadet.

Voinko minä sanoa varmasti,
että ikävystynyt jo olen talveen,
että kaipaan kyllä kevättä
nyt, suoraan pakkasen sielusta?
Että latvojen selvä etsaus,
että pihlajan marjoilla makaavat
nämä pöyheät valkoiset lakit
eivät iloa vie enää?

Niin sanon ”pian kevät tulee”
sekä ”pian sireenit kukkivat”,
kuin ”pian” merkitsisi ”huomenna”.
Niin katselen hiljaista aroa,
jolla hanki on kumara aaltoina,
kuin kangasvuokkojen idut
jo yltyleensä sillä näkyisivät
lumen rakeisen tahroja keskella.

Vaan huonessani, sen lämmössä,
kolmen hopeapensaan varpua
silmut ovat kai vähän paisuneet.


Pidän tyylistäsi. Se on kuin sekoitus suosikkirunoilijaani P. Mustapäätä ja uudemman ajan naisrunoilijoita.

Minä korjaisin kielioppia ja sanastoa esimerkiksi näin:

Spoiler: show
Minun pöydälläni on lasissa
kolme hopeapensaan varpua.
Helmikuu on aivan alussa
ja liukuvat ohitseni
päivät, tuulet, lumisateet.

Voinko sanoa varmasti,
että olen jo ikävystynyt talveen,
että kaipaan kyllä kevääseen
nyt, suoraan pakkasen sydämestä?
Että latvojen selkeä etsaus,
että nämä pöyheät valkoiset lakit,
pihlajan marjoilla makaavat,
eivät vie iloa enää?

Niin sanon ”pian kevät tulee”
sekä ”pian sireenit kukkivat”,
kuin ”pian” merkitsisi ”huomenna”.
Niin katselen hiljaista aroa,
jolla hanki on kumara (?) aaltoina,
kuin kangasvuokkojen idut
jo yltyleensä sillä (?) näkyisivät
rakeisten lumilaikkujen keskellä.

Vaan huoneessani, sen lämmössä,
kolmen hopeapensaan varvun
silmut ovat kai vähän paisuneet.


Some of my edits are simple morphological corrections; others are more about stylistics, and one could rewrite those parts in an entirely different manner. The question marks indicate that I am not quite sure what you have tried to express. It might have something to do with the fact that I do not know what a steppe looks like when covered in snow.

Please note that kaipaan jotakin is most often correct, but if the longing has a direction instead of an object, then kaipaan jostakin jonnekin is better.

I suppose you are already familiar with the nomen type sade : sateen, huone : huoneen and simply forgot about the slightly tricky declension. Am I right?

Feel free to ask questions or give explanations.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 08:25:08 PM by Sananjalka »
Talán mégiscsak lesz folytatás...

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Bobriha

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #317 on: February 06, 2016, 06:31:43 AM »
Sananjalka, thank you!
Yes, I should remember about the way words change and it's shame I didn't.
I reversed words' order mostly for rhythm purposes but I see the variant with your corrections sounds just OK. And it allows sydämestä!
And also thanks for explaining about kaivata. I wasn't sure about it.
Steppe covered with snow (and what I meant particularly) looks like this:


(The fotos are shot by my friend, from her permission. Btw local year's most early Pulsatillas' sprouts are found under that lone standing pine tree)
If you have good description for these please share it!
majavanainen

Sananjalka

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #318 on: February 06, 2016, 11:19:12 PM »
Wow. I guess I have seen occasional occurrences of "snow waves" of that form in Finland a few times in my life. Perhaps on river ice... They might be much more familiar to someone who grew up in the middle of the great Ostrobothnian fields. My childhood home was surrounded by too many trees.

I am not exactly a seafarer either, but the Finnish literary language as I know it likes metaphors related to water, so tyrsky was the first thing that came to mind.

Sadly enough, the pictures do not help me to decide between sillä versus siellä. Perhaps I should pick siellä (adverb), because sillä (noun, adessive case), in this context, is somehow pulling me towards feeling that the poor plants have no roots.

pälvi is a funny word: wherever most of the ground is covered in snow towards the end of the winter, it refers to the small snow-free patches (also: sulapälvi), but once the spring has taken over, it refers to the remaining patches of snow (also: lumipälvi). rakeiset lumilaikut may be closer to your original idea, but using pälvi makes the expression shorter and therefore more flexible when it comes to rhythm.

***

What you say about reversing word orders makes me ponder. Traditional Finnish poetry bends word orders very heavily, but that is usually done in order to achieve a rigorous rhythm-and-rhyme formula. I have read somewhere that in the Russian-language culture, the older and stricter rules of poetry were loosened by respected poets at some point and the results were deemed fruitful (and this had a huge impact on smaller Soviet literary cultures of that time, too). Meanwhile in Finland (mainly during the 1950s and the 1960s, I think), there was a bitter confrontation between the old school and the new school. Most younger poets completely abandoned rhyme and pretty much gave up old rhythm rules as well. This is why I might not have enough tradition to lean on: in my world, it has been so much more of an "either-or".

I do not have much theoretical knowledge on what kinds of word order bending are "allowed" and what kinds are not. I do have a pretty clear intuition when it comes to the older style; but when I write bits of modern-style poetry in Finnish myself, I try to remain on the safe side and avoid venturing too far from prose syntax. What I am trying to say, I may have "corrected" your word orders too much, but we would need a specialist (or at least several hours of coordinated work) to reach your aesthetic ideal in Finnish.

Nevertheless, that old-school intuition of mine is screaming that you should try "eivät enää iloa vie" if that happens to sound better to you...

Hrm. I hope you do not mind if I have another go. I have been rather sick for a couple of days, and this makes for some good brain exercise now that I am getting better.

***

Spoiler: show
Minun pöydälläni on lasissa
kolme hopeapensaan varpua.
Helmikuu on aivan alussa
ja liukuvat ohitseni
päivät, tuulet, lumisateet.

Voisinko sanoa varmasti,
että olen jo talveen työlääntynyt,
että kaipaan täältä niin kevääseen,
suoraan pakkasen sydämestä?
Että latvojen selkeä etsaus,
että pöyheät valkeat lakit,
pihlajan marjoilla makaavat,
eivät iloa enää vie?

Niin sanon ”pian kevät tulee”
sekä ”pian sireenit kukkivat”,
kuin ”pian” merkitsisi ”huomenna”.
Niin katselen hiljaista aroa,
hangen jähmettyneitä tyrskyjä,
kuin kangasvuokkojen idut
jo yltyleensä siellä nousisivat
rakeisten pälvien lomasta.

Vaan huoneessani, sen lämmössä,
kolmen hopeapensaanvarpuni
silmut lienevät vähän paisuneet.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 11:47:24 PM by Sananjalka »
Talán mégiscsak lesz folytatás...

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Sananjalka

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #319 on: February 07, 2016, 11:20:47 AM »
as a reader and a hobbyist writer I don't think it should be "one convention or the other"

Neither do I. Those who controlled publishing high-end modern poetry in Finland did, for decades (not sure what the case is today). Partially because of that, I have never read much Finnish poetry similar to Bobriha’s, as regards semi-free rhythm.

So, at first, I simply read the work as a free-verse poem relying on wordings, flow, and spacing (Finnish tauotus is what I would like to say here) to create images, feelings and atmosphere. That worked out pretty well. As soon as I realized that rhythmic choices had more importance than that, my point of view changed regarding some of my own suggestions.

Also, word-level ambiguity in poetry and fiction is something I often find fascinating (e.g. I read sillä = arolla, but you might have read it differently), and I personally liked some of those original expressions a lot.

That is certainly a key issue here. kumarat aallot sounds very unnatural to me, but I believe I have constructed just as weird combinations for my own poems in the past and they may have worked out fine – depending on the reader, of course. The decision was not an easy one, but I thought I should tug the poem to safer waters, to make it stylistically more balanced (and boring?), because the writer is still in the progress of learning the language.

I think it is marvelous how near professional level Bobriha gets as a Finnish poet, even without any help, before having completely mastered some nomen declensions. Luckily for us, I am not her editor (kustannustoimittaja) at a publishing house. As far as Bobriha herself allows it, the web age enables all of us to share different versions of her works, and hopefully every correction suggestion gives some more insight into how the Finnish language works.

Oikeastaan haluaisin kirjoittaa täällä enemmän vain suomeksi, mutta Bobrihan runo tempasi minut niin monimutkaisiin pohdiskeluihin, että kieltämme opiskeleville ihmisille se olisi varmaankin ollut hyvin raskasta.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 11:27:17 AM by Sananjalka »
Talán mégiscsak lesz folytatás...

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Just might understand something sometimes: :netherlands: :spain:

Bobriha

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #320 on: February 08, 2016, 10:50:19 AM »
Sananjalka, Letizia, thank you for your kind words!
Tästä tulee mulle mieleen yksi paikka: kun olin lapsi niin meillä oli rannassa saunamökki ja sen nurkalla kasvoi valkovuokkoja. Keväisin seurattiin, kun ne nousivat mullasta ja sammalesta ensin kumarina ja vähitellen avasivat kukkansa. Valkovuokot eivät olleet kovin yleisiä siellä, joten niissä oli jotakin erityistä, vähän jännittikin että ovatko ne selvinneet talven yli. Ne menestyivät kuitenkin hyvin ja levisivätkin niin, että niitä oli joinakin vuosina suuri matto kuusen alla.


Tässä kasvavat arovuokkot, jotka kuuluvat samalle suvulle. Vaikka ne ovat minusta (vai voinko käyttää ”minua värten”?) ensin tulevan kesän merkki. Ne ovat tässä viimeiset kevätkukasta, siis kun ne lopettavat kukkia, kesä alkaa.
Sen jälkeen höyhenheinät kukkivat, ja sitten tulee se ikävä aika viimeisten kukkien ja ensimmaisten hedelmien välissä. Ja se on usein kuivaa ja kuumaa.
Siis, se onkin vähän surullinen merkki.

Quote
(e.g. I read sillä = arolla, but you might have read it differently)
Yup, this is what it meant to be. But siellä seams to be better. Or maybe nothing at all.


What you say about reversing word orders makes me ponder. Traditional Finnish poetry bends word orders very heavily, but that is usually done in order to achieve a rigorous rhythm-and-rhyme formula. I have read somewhere that in the Russian-language culture, the older and stricter rules of poetry were loosened by respected poets at some point and the results were deemed fruitful (and this had a huge impact on smaller Soviet literary cultures of that time, too). Meanwhile in Finland (mainly during the 1950s and the 1960s, I think), there was a bitter confrontation between the old school and the new school. Most younger poets completely abandoned rhyme and pretty much gave up old rhythm rules as well. This is why I might not have enough tradition to lean on: in my world, it has been so much more of an "either-or".

Yes indeed, while works of futurists showed us new forms of a poetry, classical feet and rhymes never complitely gave up their positions in Russian poetry. If modern poet would write a poem in traditional way it wouldn't be perceived as something outdated. I myself when writing in Russian mostly lean towards traditional style (not that I am a big of a poet of course).
But alas I am not really acquainted with modern Finnish poetry.
Sananjalka, if you feel like sharing your poems please do.

As far as Bobriha herself allows it, the web age enables all of us to share different versions of her works, and hopefully every correction suggestion gives some more insight into how the Finnish language works.

I am absolutely fine with it. And I am really grateful for your effort! I examined your versions of the poem with great interest.
majavanainen

moonamaija

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #321 on: February 11, 2016, 04:15:05 PM »
I think it is marvelous how near professional level Bobriha gets as a Finnish poet, even without any help, before having completely mastered some nomen declensions.

Pääaineeni on suomen kieli eikä kirjallisuus ihan syystä, mutta tätä runokeskustelua oli tosi kiinnostavaa lukea. Kiitos varsinkin Bobriha, runosi on ihana. :)

I just wanted to add this to the topic of Bobriha's epic skill: it might just be that Bobriha's learning level allows them to use Finnish in a "truer" (or new and unpredictable and thus more touching) way, since they're not restricted by all of the linguistic conventions us natives have internalized. All respect to your lovely and v probably time-consumed writing and language skills, though, Bobriha, this was just a note I found interesting, and was not meant to little the work you've put to your poem.
But Crowley remembered what Heaven was like, and it had quite a few things in common with Hell. You couldn't get a decent drink in either of them, for a start. And the boredom you got in Heaven was almost as bad as the excitement you got in Hell.

Grey-cat

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #322 on: March 03, 2016, 09:43:10 AM »
Hey! This website has been pretty good for a beginner, like me:
http://www.digitaldialects.com/Finnish.htm
Also, I skimmed through this pronunciation giude first and it was actually pretty good.
https://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/finnish.pronunciation.html
Although

Grey-cat

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #323 on: March 03, 2016, 09:48:53 AM »
Although
.....although I wasn't sure if the links would work, so I went to see a preview and clicked 'post' instead. XD

Athena

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #324 on: May 05, 2016, 10:57:51 PM »
Hey! This website has been pretty good for a beginner, like me:
http://www.digitaldialects.com/Finnish.htm
Also, I skimmed through this pronunciation giude first and it was actually pretty good.
https://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/finnish.pronunciation.html
Although

Hey, that first site was actually the one I started with! :)

Sorry for the thread-necro! :-[

I've wanted to learn Finnish for a while (oddly enough, it began when I started reading SSSS ;)) and I finally have a bit of time in my schedule to do it. (not that I didn't have time before, but I was being lazy) I was wondering if anyone has any pointers for a beginner?
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Bobriha

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #325 on: May 06, 2016, 08:44:04 AM »
Hey, that first site was actually the one I started with! :)

Sorry for the thread-necro! :-[

Hello! I did it a lot for this thread;D Since nobody complained I believe it's OK?

Quote
I've wanted to learn Finnish for a while (oddly enough, it began when I started reading SSSS ;)) and I finally have a bit of time in my schedule to do it. (not that I didn't have time before, but I was being lazy) I was wondering if anyone has any pointers for a beginner?

I'd advise doing grammar exercices. A lot of them. You will never master all those endless cases, tenses, declensions and so on with just memorization. Would be good if you'd get yourself some regular textbook (with exercices). Those are not cheap, though. Check, maybe your local library has some?
And of cource if you have some questions don't hesitate to bring it here!

Ja kuitenkin, sikäli kuin olen jo tullut tähän, niin haluasin näyttää tätä kesärunoa, jonka kirjoitin jo maaliskuuna. Nopea Bobriha on nopea.

Se laulaa.
Taivaan, näkymättömiä kiuruja täynnä,
alla,
yli aron, häilyvien höyhenheinien,
joilla hitaat pilvien varjot vaeltavat,
muinaisella kivellä
se istuu, suu avoin,
ja tuuli lentää läpitsensä.
Kun polkupyörästä nouset
levähtääksesi –
on suuri maalilma, ja katsot nyt korkeukselta –
kun vesipullon kansin kierrät auki,
se laulaa.

 


majavanainen

Grey-cat

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #326 on: May 06, 2016, 02:09:01 PM »

Ja kuitenkin, sikäli kuin olen jo tullut tähän, niin haluasin näyttää tätä kesärunoa, jonka kirjoitin jo maaliskuuna. Nopea Bobriha on nopea.

Se laulaa.
Taivaan, näkymättömiä kiuruja täynnä,
alla,
yli aron, häilyvien höyhenheinien,
joilla hitaat pilvien varjot vaeltavat,
muinaisella kivellä
se istuu, suu avoin,
ja tuuli lentää läpitsensä.
Kun polkupyörästä nouset
levähtääksesi –
on suuri maalilma, ja katsot nyt korkeukselta –
kun vesipullon kansin kierrät auki,
se laulaa.


Tuuli=wind
One word! I know one word out of all that! I'm so learned! T.T
Ah well I'll figure it out eventually.

Krisse Kovacs

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #327 on: May 06, 2016, 04:39:44 PM »
Ja kuitenkin, sikäli kuin olen jo tullut tähän, niin haluasin näyttää tätä kesärunoa, jonka kirjoitin jo maaliskuuna. Nopea Bobriha on nopea.

Se laulaa.
Taivaan, näkymättömiä kiuruja täynnä,
alla,
yli aron, häilyvien höyhenheinien,
joilla hitaat pilvien varjot vaeltavat,
muinaisella kivellä
se istuu, suu avoin,
ja tuuli lentää läpitsensä.
Kun polkupyörästä nouset
levähtääksesi –
on suuri maalilma, ja katsot nyt korkeukselta –
kun vesipullon kansin kierrät auki,
se laulaa.

Tuuli=wind
One word! I know one word out of all that! I'm so learned! T.T
Ah well I'll figure it out eventually.

I got the "laulaa" which means "to sing"
"istua" means "to sit"
"mailmaa" means "world".
nyt means.... "now"? or something

and on/olen is olla, which means "to be"
se on - it is
(minä) olen - I am
se means... it

even with those lessons I took already, I don't know anything, because all language book start with teaching the basics like "who are you, where are you from" and such. and finnish is said to be not that easy language.

I wanted to start learning finnish in 2010, heard many finnish songs, and just see random finnish a lot, still only few words I could learn from those. I never got a teacher to help me out when I had questions so I gave up. pretty recently my friend offered me to teach me.
I am excited to take more lessons soon
« Last Edit: June 02, 2016, 07:30:23 PM by Martti Kakkiainen »
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princeofdoom

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #328 on: June 02, 2016, 07:20:39 PM »
Odd question: What are the words/"names" of the different fingers? Especially if they have particularly amusing literal meanings.
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Laufey

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #329 on: June 02, 2016, 07:36:42 PM »
Odd question: What are the words/"names" of the different fingers? Especially if they have particularly amusing literal meanings.

The main ones are:

peukalo = thumb
etusormi = "first/front finger"
keskisormi = "middle finger"
nimetön = "nameless"
pikkurilli/pikkusormi = "small finger"

But there's also old poems about them with different names for them... these ones are so old that they halfway don't make any sense anymore.

Peukaloputti (= thumb + ???no idea what putti means)
suomensutti (= finland's brush I think - sutti is an old word for suti, a brush)
vallesmanni (= lensmann)
kultaralli (= gold finger)
pikkurilli (= small finger).
« Last Edit: June 02, 2016, 07:39:01 PM by Laufey »
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