Random sleepy observation - why do some people keep saying that German and Norwegian (German mostly) are "harsh" languages and sometimes even "ugly"? They've got their own kind of beauty :(
...you can now write your name in Russian or Chinese.
Thank you.
I happen to love my language, and if I had to choose a language to learn, it would be German. Maybe it has a bit of a roughness to it, but it is completely possible to be rough, yet elegant. Like blacksmith jewelry. Beautiful and powerful.
And I'm also going to complain about that darn "ch" sound in German, which I have no idea how I should pronounce. I'm going to gloat about the fact that I could understand Steller's introduction in German (and learned a new word, Kanninchen) and that I can understand Norwegian fairly well by reading once or twice. I'm also very asleep.
To me, both German and Norwegian (and generally all Germanic languages) are very relaxing. They are not as "Akzzkakzakzkakz" as Italians make them out to be, they're more like... Uhm, running water. I don't know if that makes any sense. To my ears, they're really soft (especially for the lack of loud sounds and high-pitched vowels)... Like... You know, running water...
Icelandic on the other hand doesn't really sound Germanic to me; it almost has a slavic ring to it, somehow.
Wow. Maybe you can do a miracle and make me really appreciate my native language.
Also, Nimphy and StellersJayC, in Kaninchen the "ch" sound is pronouonced like a very soft "sh". (Kanninchen looks like Kaninchen in a Kanne, pfft, sorry 'bout that)
Now that I think about it, Kaninchen is a very adorable word, fitting for an adorable rabbit.
But the realy soft sh is not built in the area around you teeth. It is lokated in the back of you mouth. The hollow space forming above your upper set of teeth is one wall of a pipe, the opposite wall is formed by tensing you tongue muscels from the back to the middle. Now you start breathing out. You should feel the air going out at your palatine (root of your mouth?) and here something like a hiss emerging from there. You can play by tensing different areas of your tongue while trying to make that sound.
In "Kuchen" you have to do different. You are only tensing the back muscles of your tongue and press the air through your throat (pharynx area). It is a bit like vomiting air. It is the same area where you roll the letter "r" in some languages.
Thank you both for your tips! I'll try and record something later to see if I actually understood the point or not (you guys will have to stand me and my recordings for a long time ;)). The thing I'd really love to know is when it's which sound (when it's the "Kuchen" kind of "ch", when the "Kaninchen)", etc...). I'm quite afraid I'll have to learn that by heart, though...
To Clayres: you should indeed appreciate your native language! It's wonderful! Also, I'll just blame my wrong spelling of Kaninchen on Stellers :P
So family meeting over this aaaaand:
After a,o,u, and au (considered as dark vokals) you take the velar "ch" down at your throat.
Afer e,i,ü,ä,ö and ei (considered as light vokals) you take the palatal "ch" at your palatine.
Some children have severe problems reading the combination of these two letters and some of my boys with a russian background have to be helped with the correct pronounciation. I'm not that deep into Russian that I am able to detect where that comes from. Also in Switzerland pronounciation is more deeper down the throat and rules of the "ch" are different from here. "Küche" (kitchen) is pronunced at the palatine in Germany, but down the throat in Switzerland.
This thread is proving to be useful :D (More rules, yay.)
Soooo... I was doing a quick Duolingo revision on German and I had to write down what the voice was saying. The sentence was "Sie ist ein kind", I finally understood, but upon my first listening what I had heard was "Sie isst ein Kind"...
Thank you both for your tips! I'll try and record something later to see if I actually understood the point or not (you guys will have to stand me and my recordings for a long time ;)). The thing I'd really love to know is when it's which sound (when it's the "Kuchen" kind of "ch", when the "Kaninchen)", etc...). I'm quite afraid I'll have to learn that by heart, though...
To Clayres: you should indeed appreciate your native language! It's wonderful! Also, I'll just blame my wrong spelling of Kaninchen on Stellers :P
Ak! I can't spell anything! At this point you should probably just assume everything I write is spelled wrong.
And... It's not "-kehn"? Now I am wondering if I've been saying -chen words wrong for the past three years. Kaninchen, Mädchen, Eichhörnchen, Kücken...
I think at some point in the past you said something about Eichhörnchen vs Einhörnchen, now that I remember, what was it?
Yup. That was me.
And... It's not "-kehn"? Now I am wondering if I've been saying -chen words wrong for the past three years. Kaninchen, Mädchen, Eichhörnchen, Kücken...I assume you know that Kücken is spelled with "k" and indeed pronounced like "kü - ken", even if it was a "ck". Just amking sure.
This is a really usefull tool on learning how some vowels are built:It won't work for me... :-\
http://ipa.group.shef.ac.uk/symbols.php (ftp://ipa.group.shef.ac.uk/symbols.php)
Just click on the symbols and a video will open.
I assume you know that Kücken is spelled with "k" and indeed pronounced like "kü - ken", even if it was a "ck". Just amking sure.
And I'm also going to complain about that darn "ch" sound in German, which I have no idea how I should pronounce.
I've been a self-taught for Estonian and English, and from all the methods and resources that I've tried I can say (in my personal opinion) that the best way to learn a language pronunciation is watching Disney films :B ... I know it's not a very manly thing to have Frozen or Tangled in your computer, but it really helps you to listen to each word with an excellent pronunciation in a very intuitive context.
Of course you will live in fear of being discovered by your friends, but you will learn very quickly :P
*Crawls out of North-American language ignorance*
So I have a quick question for people who speak Swedish... I just started learning it (on my own, on the internet, probably not the next way but whatever)
The site I'm using (something on Memrise) seems to suggest that both "this" and "that" = den/dett (implying also that den is more commonly used). Is this right? It doesn't seem right...
"den" and "det" generally mean "it" as a pronoun, or "the" when they're being used as definite articles before a noun phrase with an adjective (t.ex., "det mörka rummet" = "the dark room").It does! Thank you!
the most common way to say "this" is "den här" or "det här" (lit. "the here"), depending on whether the object in question is common gender (en) or neutral (ett). likewise "that" is "den där" or "det där". an important thing to remember when you use it is that you have to use the definite article for the noun that follows (if you use a noun after it). ("these" and "those" are "de här" and "de där", respectively, though remember that "de" is pronounced "dom"!)
så, till exempel:
:sweden: "den här kursen är långtråkig."
:uk: "this course is boring."
you can also use it without a noun afterwards:
:sweden: "det där är ett foto av min familj."
:uk: "that is a photo of my family."
hope that clears things up!
It does! Thank you!
Would är be the indefinite pronoun then, similar to the english a/an?
nope! the indefinite pronoun is "en" (common gender) or "ett" (neutral gender).Thank you! I may bug you again later when something doesn't make sense ^_^
"är" is the present conjugation of "vara" ("to be"). so "jag är" ("i am"), "du är" (you are), "han/hon/den/det är" (he/she/it is—or also "hen är" if you're into their new gender neutral pronoun!), and so on.
*puts post-its all over house*
Now I really want to do this to. Unfortunately I don't think my family would appreciate it much either. Hm. Maybe I can figure out some sort of mental system... Tell us how this turns out.
Also, sorry if this sounds nit-picky and annoying, but I'm pretty sure you conjugate verbs and decline nouns (or maybe that's just Latin? *goes off on a Google hunt*)
Also, sorry if this sounds nit-picky and annoying, but I'm pretty sure you conjugate verbs and decline nouns (or maybe that's just Latin? *goes off on a Google hunt*)
I've also been sloooowly teaching myself Lithuanian online. It usually feels like I don't know anything, but then when I see a text and understand something here and there, it's a really great feeling! Oh man though...the grammar...so much conjugating and declining.
Sorry if you've already answered this elsewhere but ... Why Lithuanian?*breaks in conversation*
Sorry if you've already answered this elsewhere but ... Why Lithuanian?
*breaks in conversation*
*gasp*
Could it be because you have a uncommon/rare surname with Lithuanian roots? (Because I have, and I'm pretty sure I have unknown relatives over in the US. Very loosely related, that is.)
Nah, I don't. One time I mentioned Lithuania though, and my grandma told me that she THINKS she might've had a relative from there but she wasn't sure, lol. Who knows, my family comes from so many different countries it's no wonder they have trouble keeping track of it all.Well then, I guess I have to take comfort in the assumption that everybody is related somehow... Ah a girl can dream (of finding long lost relatives by sheer accident via internet, I mean)...
I haven't, but either way, it's no problem :)
Hmm...multiple reasons, haha. First, I just really like the language. I think it's really pretty sounding! But also, I find it really interesting as well. I'm very interested in Indo-European linguistics, and Lithuanian is considered one of the oldest living Indo-European languages, as it has some really archaic features similar to Sanskrit, Ancient Greek, and Latin. Plus, I'm just fascinated with the history and cultures of the Baltic region in general.
Oh, well that's fine. I mean most people learn a language for utilitarian purposes but I guess there are those who just find themselves enamoured with a "weird" language. There are those who learn Norwegian just to read Ibsen and Nesbø in the original language after all.
Well then, I guess I have to take comfort in the assumption that everybody is related somehow... Ah a girl can dream (of finding long lost relatives by sheer accident via internet, I mean)...
I suppose that's true...but that would be quite something! There is a name in my family records though that I haven't been able to find the origin of, so naturally I'm very interested in it. I'm not very practical I guess. x:Haha, of course it would be! By the way it's not only my father's birthname that is rare and unusual, but my mother's, too (i.e. pick your poison of unpronounciability), but I have their origins pretty much nailed down, both are slavic, one Baltic and one more from the South. I guess my family kept good track of the meanings, although not of the heritage, that is...
Haha! I checked the messages, and Fenris said it was conjugation of nouns! So either we're right, or the fault is not mine 8)
Haha! I checked the messages, and Fenris said it was conjugation of nouns! So either we're right, or the fault is not mine 8)It's nice to have someone to blame for a mistake you'd just as easily make yourself :P
Huh. Well, I guess they both mean "changing the word" anyway....? (I'm just really confused after having spent so many years trying to remember what is declined and what is conjugated in Latin)
*digs through piles of Google results* To make matters even more confusing, apparently some courses use "inflection" for nouns. ???
At any rate, I should probably go back to studying noun endings.
So you're all language benders! :P
Yes, I rewatched some Avatar episodes today. And I should really go to sleep.
Okay, I didn't know what thread to put it in, but dad in yet another attempt to amuse me by making fun of my passion for languages, sent me this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xliy6ZZd1Ik#t=0). I am indeed very amused. I must have watched it at least thirty times, and can by now recite most of the lines...
So you're all language benders! :PWe used to be but then the fire nation attacked.
Okay, I didn't know what thread to put it in, but dad in yet another attempt to amuse me by making fun of my passion for languages, sent me this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xliy6ZZd1Ik#t=0). I am indeed very amused. I must have watched it at least thirty times, and can by now recite most of the lines...I guess mimicling the pronunciation of Groot in several languages is... a useful skill to be sure.
"So...why are you learning Norwegian, anyway?"
"BECAUSE I WANT TO BECOME A LANGUAGE BENDER."
Somehow, I think this would be funnier if I had actually seen the movie. I really love how the Japanese translation sounded like one of those "scream-the-name-of-your-attack" attacks, though. :D
We used to be but then the fire nation attacked.
I guess mimicling the pronunciation of Groot in several languages is... a useful skill to be sure.
Okay, I didn't know what thread to put it in, but dad in yet another attempt to amuse me by making fun of my passion for languages, sent me this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xliy6ZZd1Ik#t=0). I am indeed very amused. I must have watched it at least thirty times, and can by now recite most of the lines...WATASHI WA GAROOOOTOUH!!! X'D
Okay, I didn't know what thread to put it in, but dad in yet another attempt to amuse me by making fun of my passion for languages, sent me this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xliy6ZZd1Ik#t=0). I am indeed very amused. I must have watched it at least thirty times, and can by now recite most of the lines...
dad in yet another attempt to amuse me by making fun of my passion for languages, sent me this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xliy6ZZd1Ik#t=0). I am indeed very amused. I must have watched it at least thirty times, and can by now recite most of the lines...The thing I'm wondering about is, what did they do about his name ("I am ..." - "YES WE KNOW!!") in languages where there's an actual word sounding similar to ("DON'T SAY IT!") - say, Vlaams (http://www.holland.com/global/tourism/article/de-groote-peel-2.htm)?
Sooo, I had to go in the store and look through several DVDs, but I finally found one which was also dubbed in German, and had subtitles. Put it on.
1) I confirm my opinon about the German language being incredibly relaxing to hear.
2) I understood a few words! YES! Even without subtitles! Like... okay, only "tut mir leid" and obviously yes and no, and how I think, can't remember. But that is progress?
3) I watched about five minutes of the movie, even though the time doubles since I watched it both with English and German subs. But I learned some new words. This is fun, and useful.
4) If anyone asks me what I'm doing, I will answer that I'm studying German. The fact that I'm actually watching Captain America is not a proof to the contrary. I'm studying really hard.
Today I finally completed both my "Basic Norwegian" and "Introduction to Japanese" courses on Memrise, yess!Congrats, Nimphy! :D
Today the basics... Tomorrowthe language.intermediate courses.
...aaand the day after tomorrow : THE WORLD ! (as usual)
Today I finally completed both my "Basic Norwegian" and "Introduction to Japanese" courses on Memrise, yess!
Today the basics... Tomorrowthe language.intermediate courses.
Out of curiosity, which Norwegian courses are you taking?
And also congrats! (wow, you're working on Japanese too?)
The "Basic Norwegian (Bokmål)". A bit boring, not much to learn, and now I'm REALLY confused as to how I should say "seven"... But hey, I learned a few new adjectives, nouns, and have a slight idea of how adjectives adapt to neutral nouns.
Yup, I've been "studying" Japanese for a while, but without any courses (mostly by watching anime). Since now I've even completed a course and can read hiragana, I can say I'm officially studying it, no?
Yup, I've been "studying" Japanese for a while, but without any courses (mostly by watching anime). Since now I've even completed a course and can read hiragana, I can say I'm officially studying it, no?
Uhmmm... I'm getting a bit confused here... Duolingo sometimes translates "(sie for example) laufen" as "(they) run", others
as "(they) walk"... and I'm getting really really confused here...
Oh, given that I'm already talking about confusion, is "seven" in Norwegian "sju" or "syv"? I've found both forms...
Uhmmm... I'm getting a bit confused here... Duolingo sometimes translates "(sie for example) laufen" as "(they) run", othersIt actually can mean both - and no, I'm not sure that there are only two categories in the first place. "Laufen" can be applied to the hobble of a convalescent ("wenigstens kann ich jetzt wieder laufen") as well as olympics-grade sports ("der Weltrekord im 100-Meter-Lauf wurde gebrochen") - but nonetheless using it everywhere will lead to misinterpretation sooner rather than later. ::)
as "(they) walk"... and I'm getting really really confused here...
It actually can mean both - and no, I'm not sure that there are only two categories in the first place. "Laufen" can be applied to the hobble of a convalescent ("wenigstens kann ich jetzt wieder laufen") as well as olympics-grade sports ("der Weltrekord im 100-Meter-Lauf wurde gebrochen") - but nonetheless using it everywhere will lead to misinterpretation sooner rather than later. ::)
If you want to refer to a specific speed level, use another, equally specific verb (off the top of my brain: schleichen, humpeln, gehen, eilen, hasten, rennen, hetzen, rasen, in order of increasing speed but not necessarily with well-defined differences).
It actually can mean both - and no, I'm not sure that there are only two categories in the first place. "Laufen" can be applied to the hobble of a convalescent ("wenigstens kann ich jetzt wieder laufen") as well as olympics-grade sports ("der Weltrekord im 100-Meter-Lauf wurde gebrochen") - but nonetheless using it everywhere will lead to misinterpretation sooner rather than later. ::)
If you want to refer to a specific speed level, use another, equally specific verb (off the top of my brain: schleichen, humpeln, gehen, eilen, hasten, rennen, hetzen, rasen, in order of increasing speed but not necessarily with well-defined differences).
sometimes I forget you're German and not an alien from space :PA rather frequent mix-up (http://www.sellingyourfilm.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/ironsky_teaserposter.jpg), it seems. 8)
don't forget spazieren (to stroll)!Oh, I'm sure there's plenty more possibilities. Spazieren(gehen), stolzieren, schreiten, (auf und ab) stampfen, schlendern, just to delve into 'S' for a bit, and I haven't even touched the "wie der Storch im Salat" meme.
Yes, it can be trekking/hiking, but also a more poetical version of "langsam gehen" ("ich wanderte unter dem Sternenzelt...").Or a somewhat more erratical movement (Wanderniere) ... 8)
and the Wandererphantasie... :)Er ... the what? ???
Er ... the what? ???
Why JoB, you surprise me. Monsieur Frogeater did find something, you did not know, did he?I found that quite surprising, too, but as it turned out, it concerned one of my established blind spots - arts. (Yes, serious. Not just music, arts in general. There's a reason why, when the school forced me to keep at least one of the musische Fächer, I picked needlework.)
Oh, given that I'm already talking about confusion, is "seven" in Norwegian "sju" or "syv"? I've found both forms...
Syv and sju are the exact same word. You can use the one you like best.
So, I just noticed the addition to your signature, Nimphy.
*cackles maniacally*
Ha! I'm not the only one studying fictional languages! (Sindarin doesn't really have a flag, though...maybe Gondor would do...)
Hehe, yes, yay for fictional languages! At first I wanted to go for Dovahzul, but it's not really learnable as a language. Klingon is though, so Klingon it is!
I have a nice Sindarin dictionary at home, but I never used it. Elves are not my kind of people... Too peaceful, too quiet ;P (Now, if I had a chance to learn the dwarven language, I would go for it)
Uh, a bunch of the Tolkien elves were sort of maniacs who brought about things like civil wars and genocides and obliteration of kingdoms. Of course, all this happened way before LotR, so I guess all the non-peaceful elves got killed off. /geekery can you tell I'm a Tolkien fan?
Sindarin doesn't really have a complete grammar either, but thanks to certain movies and certain linguists there's enough to work from. It's also one of the (other) reasons I started taking the Duolingo Irish course, since I was interested in the consonant mutations.
I've also tried learning Mando'a (Mandalorian), since the entire grammar fits in ~5 sheets of paper, but the only thing I've retained is the ability to call someone idiotic. :P
Oh, wow, I just found a "Dirty Talk" section in Norwegian on Memrise.
Some of the things one can learn on the internet!
Haha, that reminds me of the time Minna was looking for appropriate Danish curses for Admiral Olsen. If Sigrun (or Trond) ever uncorks some swear words, I guess you can step right up! (Well, Fimbulvarg and Fenris too...)Different kind of "dirty talk." ;) (The kind that stipulates a winky face)
Haha, that reminds me of the time Minna was looking for appropriate Danish curses for Admiral Olsen. If Sigrun (or Trond) ever uncorks some swear words, I guess you can step right up! (Well, Fimbulvarg and Fenris too...)Oh! Ahahah so you guys meant swearing. *wipes brow*
Different kind of "dirty talk." ;) (The kind that stipulates a winky face)Wait. So you DIDN'T mean swearing...?
Oh! Ahahah so you guys meant swearing. *wipes brow*Nope. Not swearing.
Here "dirty talk" primarily means...something else that I don't think anyone would want to hear from Trond O____O or possibly Sigrun...actually I dunno, there are some Sigrun fan boys out there but I wouldn't know...
But yeah! That sounds like cool stuff to know :P
Edit:Wait. So you DIDN'T mean swearing...?
Nope. Not swearing.*hides face and shuffles away*
*Winky face intensifies*
*hides face and shuffles away*Fwiw, I didn't sign up for the lessons.
Fwiw, I didn't sign up for the lessons.
Just... nopity nope. I have no plans to seduce people in Norwegian.
Perhaps you have plans to play some RPGs with people in Swedish, then? (http://www.memrise.com/course/268914/fantasy-rpg/)Heh, no...
Heh, no...Same here, except with French :/ I ask my friends "what can I actually use it for??" and the amount of times they reply only with eyebrow wiggles is horrifying. I can't even use it for SSSS stuffs :P
Learning languages isn't exactly a common thing, here. As far as I know, I'm the only person in my group of friends who's trying to learn one. Maybe if I do the SSSS rpg, though...
That's an advantage of growing up in a non-English-speaking country. Here, you get strange looks if you haven't learned a foreign language (or at least tried and failed to do so). And one of the goals of the European Commission is that every EU citizen should at least be able to communicate in two foreign languages (although we're still far from achieving that).
absolutely, I mean, what does it help that I once opted for latin? Most memories are lost and I started learning french only recently. Five years to go until I will able to communicate in that...
I personally view it more as a "yayy, I still have five years to learn the language, that's plenty!" than a "urgh, five more years to go".
I personally view it more as a "yayy, I still have five years to learn the language, that's plenty!" than a "urgh, five more years to go".Hehe I used to think that, then halfway through my language minor it turned to "Oh GODS I only have a year to go!! ITS NOT ENOUGH TIME I'M GOING TO FAIIIIIIL! *packs bag and joins cleansers*"
Hehe I used to think that, then halfway through my language minor it turned to "Oh GODS I only have a year to go!! ITS NOT ENOUGH TIME I'M GOING TO FAIIIIIIL! *packs bag and joins cleansers*"
Sooo, finally bored with repeating kana (I learned them, no amount of repeating will teach me anything new now), I set out to learn kanji. Created a notebook, copied a few, stroke order and on and kun reading and all, super proud of myself...
Then I made the mistake of visiting Wikipedia, which kindly informed me that the common kanji are about 3000. I haven't even learned ten of them yet. :o
So today I was going to ask my mom something, and without thinking I started saying it in Norwegian. Achievement unlocked...?Do you remember what you asked, by any chance?
Do you remember what you asked, by any chance?
Rolling r involves the same kind of airstream mechanism as a piece of clothe flapping in the wind, with the wind building strength when the clothe is down, and losing it when it is up.
I think your best bet is to try to do a Z sound, but to loosen the tension in your tongue and/or to blow harder. Finding the right dosage is tricky, you may need to experiment a lot. Or you can try to start with an L sound and to strenghen the tension in your tongue.
Another thing that might help: in american English, what is written as t/d/tt/dd between vowels is often pronounced as a short rolled r (with just one roll, it's called a "flap") in practice.... I honestly have no idea how any part of "idiot maddened by eating mutton" could possibly be construed to sound like an 'R' ... ? ???
... I honestly have no idea how any part of "idiot maddened by eating mutton" could possibly be construed to sound like an 'R' ... ? ???The alveolar tap/flap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_flap) is not too far away from t/d when it comes to tongue placement
Like, how and why did one group of people choose to describe world using the particular sounds, totally different that the other group? Why did anyone choose to systematize rules of that code? Does it have any sense that I make a chain of sounds to describe something, as it carries the meaning only to those using the same language code? Doesn't it mean all languages mean objectivly nothing?
Ouch, it started getting existential. No suprise people around me have enaugh of it. ;)
Whatever, maybe I should have just chosen to study some linguistics instead of musicology.
At the moment I can make almost all sorts of r sounds needed in the languages I speak (though I've been told my German sounds a bit Austrian thanks to r pronunciantion... Any German native to explain the differance?), and consider it a blessing.
Currently, as I've mentioned somewhere on the Forum, I'm trying to have fun with Icelandic. It's suprisingly easy in terms of basic grammar, writing looks more scary than it is, at least for me, but THE PRONUNCIATION. What a nightmare.
if i remember correctly, austrian dialects of german use an alveolar trill (more similar to spanish, italian, slavic Rs) rather than a uvular trill (more similar to a french or danish R).
ahahaha, can you pronounce the belted L? that's one of my favourite sounds, and also one of the most difficult ones in icelandic, i think. i'm still not sure that i'm getting it totally right.
if i remember correctly, austrian dialects of german use an alveolar trill (more similar to spanish, italian, slavic Rs) rather than a uvular trill (more similar to a french or danish R).
Hello, all. Here's a new question. (You may think it's more appropriate for the French or German threads -- if so, please feel free to send me there.)
My brother works for the U.S. State Department in Washington, D.C. and this summer will be deployed to Frankfurt, Germany, with his family. His children are 11 1/2 (boy) and 13 (girl). They're currently taking French in school, though not very enthusiastically. They will probably start learning German, although they'll attend an American school overseas.
Any suggestions for pleasant, entertaining ways to learn German and French? They're both bright, adorable kids who already speak bits of Spanish and Arabic, and have traveled all over the world. Their constraints are time (they're in a demanding college-prep curriculum) and interest.
So I'd like to suggest fun books for them (e.g. the Tintin books in the original French -- they already love them in English), Web videos, music, etc. -- especially in German, which I've never studied.
Ideas?
Any suggestions for pleasant, entertaining ways to learn German and French? They're both bright, adorable kids who already speak bits of Spanish and Arabic, and have traveled all over the world. Their constraints are time (they're in a demanding college-prep curriculum) and interest.Learing shouldn't have to be fun for people to take an interest in it, but what Solovei said about duolinguo is a great idea. There's a lot of friendly rivalry driving people to spend time with those things here on the forum. Maybe some sibling or family rivalry could help those guys take an interest in it too.
Ideas?
So I'd like to suggest fun books for them (e.g. the Tintin books in the original French -- they already love them in English), Web videos, music, etc. -- especially in German, which I've never studied.Sorry, I got nothing for German (as I learnt it from my parents all through my childhood and merely used it while reading books).
Gaston Lagaffe ? My, you're a man of excellent taste!Well, all kudos to Franquin, of course ...
M'enfin?
Well, all kudos to Franquin, of course ...
Aaaahhh.... the cat..... :DYes, the cat (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-so6HaCGxnao/TjodrKTws2I/AAAAAAAACNQ/N4MmKLYLdHQ/s1600/gaston+lagaffe.png) ... ;D
Surely there must be similarly approachable comics or books (or cartoons/anime) for German speakers? [...]That's the point, I don't remember anything particularly German and simultaneously "just a fun read". Fix und Foxi, Yps and Lurchi are way pre-teen IMHO, Was ist Was is boring unless you have a scientific interest, Nick Knatterton misses the stated age off the other side. The stuff I'd consider appropriate is all imported and translated, from Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse to Asterix ...
JoB, what were you reading or listening to as a kid?
The Eragon books are kind of ok, have they been written by Cornelia Funke? Not too sure about that. I bingeread TKKG as well. Some books of Wolfgang Hohlbein are good but not all, then there was Klaus Kordon, he did many historically placed Novels (but these are of older age as well). Christine Nöstlinger and Peter Härtling wrote some nice stories, too. And the almighty Michael Ende. Momo is one of my favorite Stories as well as "Die unendliche Geschichte".
I grew up with translations of Jostein Gaarder, Mats Wahl, Astrid Lindgren, Enyd Blyton and the like, though they forced thomas the tank-engine in english on me when I was very small :D
Jostein Gaarder is amazing!!! But Cornelia Funke wrote the Inkheart triology, not Eragon. ;) Inkheart is very good, thoughI remember wanting to read the books, I think I did read a part of one of them, but couldn't remember which.
Funny thing happened to me recently. I've been doing some music-related research, mostly in French. Looking for a confirmation of something, I clicked the first googled wikipedia link (undoubted source of information!), believing it to be in French (I don't know why, self-suggestion or something). After reading (and fully comprahending) three out of four sections, I noticed this French was a little bit bizzare...
No suprise, since it was in fact Italian.
I don't know, I remember being able to get a third of Swedish folk songs texts right supported only by written original lyrics and my poor knowlage of German, maybe I'm just weird.
Yup. Yay for next language (after Russian) I can understand thank to language propinquity, but am nevertheless totally unable to communicate in! ;)
Nope, it really seems useful, but a bit strange, isn't it? At least it was for other people I told the story. But maybe the more languages you speak the easier it becomes, or something? It could be an actual question for you, Nimphy, and other people in here learning more foreign languages than my poor count of three/four.
I don't know, I remember being able to get a third of Swedish folk songs texts right supported only by written original lyrics and my poor knowlage of German, maybe I'm just weird.
Last night I yelled at someone in very basic Norwegian. In a dream. (Someone in my dream also pointed out that my accent was horrible.) I do not know what this portends.It means you are ready to verbally discipline some arrogant Swedes.
It means you are ready to verbally discipline some arrogant Swedes.
I suppose you wouldn't happen to remember what it was you were yelling?
tl;dr: The nerdiest possible reasons.
My skills in the other three foreign languages I consider fluent, although English much more so than German and Swedish - but they both are a big part of my life. I've read books in Swedish since I was maybe 14-15 (it's a really easy language to pick up!!). There have been times when I've spoken primarily Swedish with my best friend at the time, or primarily German when I lived there, but English was always my first big love <3 I even did a year of English Literature and Linguistics at the University before my unfortunate music studies.If you've studied linguistics at the University level you might recall that there is no such thing as "wrong ideas of pronunciation", only native-speakerism and bias against anything that stands out.
English is currently my home language as well after I moved in together with my Welsh boyfriend. I also get unreasonably miffed when people obstinately cling to their wrong ideas of pronunciation. XD I'm something of a language police, though not as much so as I was when I was younger. XD Mainly because it's more fun to just communicate, really.
If you've studied linguistics at the University level you might recall that there is no such thing as "wrong ideas of pronunciation", only native-speakerism and bias against anything that stands out.
I've read an interesting article today about how speaking a foreign language changes our thoughts and behaviour.
The main points the article presents are:
- Depending on the language in which they are interviewed, people change their moral beliefs. In their mother language, they tend to be more compassionate.
- If asked to make a financial decision during a foreign language conversation, test persons acted more rationally than during a conversation in their mother language.
- A new language can help to construct a role for oneself, like a costume, and helps to get to know more variations of the own identity. There even seems to be a Czech saying: By learning a new language, you get a new soul.
Here's the article (in German), if you are interested in the original version. (http://www.zeit.de/zeit-wissen/2015/02/sprache-veraenderung-persoenlichkeit)
Also, I'm trying to understand the roots of as many languages as possible in my quest to create my own. So far, I have the basics of the written form of one of the races I've created, but there's a long ways to go from there...
Have you seen The Language Construction Kit (http://zompist.com/kit.html)? I think it is an excellent resource for understanding how language works and how to make constructed languages.
Have you seen The Language Construction Kit (http://zompist.com/kit.html)? I think it is an excellent resource for understanding how language works and how to make constructed languages.
Blast you! I just spent HOURS reading that when I should have been doing other things!Ah, then I probably shouldn't tell you that the author of that website has a book series as well, that is available as fairly inexpensive ebooks...
Have you seen The Language Construction Kit? I think it is an excellent resource for understanding how language works and how to make constructed languages.
Blast you! I just spent HOURS reading that when I should have been doing other things!
Heh, heh, heh... have you dipped into his Virtual Verduria (http://www.zompist.com/virtuver.htm)? It is *the* most detailed worldbuilding I have ever seen.
Oh my goodness, I'm not the only one who does this for fun! YUSS. My only qualm is that all their races follow a very similar structural pattern.One of the how-to books (maybe the planet construction kit?) explains why they have a similar structure, using sciency stuff.
Oh my goodness, I'm not the only one who does this for fun! YUSS. My only qualm is that all their races follow a very similar structural pattern.
I've read an interesting article today about how speaking a foreign language changes our thoughts and behaviour.
12.41
I'd love to tell you what Klopp is saying. He is saying a lot. But I can understand precisely none of it. So here's a photo of him pouring some water instead
If any of you should ever need a verifiable reason NOT to learn languages (in this case, German), Ben Bloom, a friendly journalist of The Telegraph, provided the ultimate answer today:
Because it's completely unnecessary. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/11537367/Jurgen-Klopp-quits-Borussia-Dortmund-live.html)
I think bokmål Norwegian is almost ready on Duolingo if you want to try it.Cool, I'll check it out.
I study Latin and Greek because I enjoy being able to read texts (especially the ancient epics) in their original language. I'm glad I did, because I've finally gotten to the point where I can read virtually anything in Latin or Greek (with a little help from the dictionary, of course).
English? I was born in America so that kind of came naturally.
Spanish? I was moving to Mexico so it was basically either learn Spanish or be really confused all the time. Anyway, my parents insisted.
Finnish? Because of Lalli and the fact that Tolkien was inspired by Finnish to make Elvish. In other words, I'm a nerd. (also I really, really love languages and wanted to learn something difficult.)
from my own experience I can tell that watching movies in foreign language (preferably without subtitles) really improves your skillsI second that, because in movies you have the body language and the general context action to help you guess the meaning, even if you don't understand every word (or understand only half the words). However, I prefer adding subtitles in the same language as the spoken language because I'm a fast reader and this helps me memorize how to pronounce words I know in written form.
Watching movies can help because people tend to pronounce their words more clearly than in real life, and radio like Sunflower said.
I'm learning Icelandic because I kinda just fell in love with its sound and look, not to mention that the fact that it's proving painfully hard to learn is making me go on and continue with learning it out of sheer and pure spite ;D
Speech is impossible, because the word I'm looking for always eludes me until three weeks later when it's irrelevant.
Don't wait for the perfect word to come to your mind, use the other ones you know instead to work around the missing word.
i think this deserves highlighting as a particularly useful skill to develop when speaking. a few generic words can be used for several meanings, eg. 'money you can only use in one place' when you don't know how to say 'gift voucher'*. using similar words you can say 'the place you get money from' to mean 'bank'. so you needn't spend ages learning/searching for specific vocab and it often ends up being pretty funny, kind of like a real life version of taboo or articulate
*yes this one i have had to use myself
i think this deserves highlighting as a particularly useful skill to develop when speaking. a few generic words can be used for several meanings, eg. 'money you can only use in one place' when you don't know how to say 'gift voucher'*. using similar words you can say 'the place you get money from' to mean 'bank'. so you needn't spend ages learning/searching for specific vocab and it often ends up being pretty funny, kind of like a real life version of taboo or articulateIt looks like me sometimes while helping lost tourists ^^
*yes this one i have had to use myself
My biggest problem with understanding spoken language is often in either dialect or some bad habit that people have when they use their mother tongue. Icelanders are particularly horrific at non-pronouncing huge parts of words, either dropping bits and pieces, smashing the words together or just leaving out entire words, even. A friend of mine is one of the absolute worst when she speaks fast, once heard her pronounce "Ég veit það ekki" (= I don't know that) as something resembling "Veihggi"...
I'm learning Icelandic because I kinda just fell in love with its sound and look
(Here in California, the only overlap between local radio and languages I've learned is Spanish.)
Finnish? Because of Lalli and the fact that Tolkien was inspired by Finnish to make Elvish. In other words, I'm a nerd.
Yes. Yes forever. You get cookies for this. *hands over cookies* You have summed up my feelings in twenty words.
(can't read cyrillic, though; I always tell myself that I'll learn it, and then sort of...forget).
Visiting Helsinki in ~3 months, so cramming for politeness & survival (& curiosity, oh my). All those "extra" vowels look daunting!! ;D
But why is that so?It depends a lot of the persons. If someone ask me something in french with accent, my reaction will be answering a little more slowly and with my hands than usually, and making sure we understand each others ; but it's because I consider the person is making the effort to speak in my language and "impolite" to ignore this effort by switching to an other language. If someone seems lost, my first reaction will be trying english. I suppose the people you have met were just trying to communicate better with you. With or without success :)
It seems to me that some language communities embrace learners' attempts more than others do. When I was in France, many communication attempts ended with a big confusion because I was speaking French - with an obvious accent, it seems - and the other person tried to switch to English/German, without big success. I don't know if some people don't like foreigners "butchering" their language, or if they just want to make communication easier... During my short trip to Göteborg this year, I experienced the total opposite: Although my Swedish is reallybadbasic, when I started a communication attempt in Swedish, people answered me in Swedish as well. (At least until I didn't understand them anymore, then they switched to English.) As a language learner, I felt a lot more welcome in Sweden than in France.
One of the complaints that my mother has about France is that the French all refuse to speak French to her. True she is pretty bad at it, but can't practice because they all insist on speaking English to her.*Sigh* When I hear/read such things, I fear French will keep their not-so-friendly reputation.
One of the complaints that my mother has about France is that the French all refuse to speak French to her. True she is pretty bad at it, but can't practice because they all insist on speaking English to her.I had the opposite problem. I was speaking French extremely hesitantly (and probably incorrectly--I never studied French but I can read it okay), in a place where it was very likely there would be people able to speak English (the hotel restaurant, at a hotel that catered to foreign tour groups), and they refused to speak slower or try English or even make reasonable responses to what I was able to say in French. We ended up getting the wrong food and being charged for things we didn't order.
We ended up getting the wrong food and being charged for things we didn't order.
*Sigh* When I hear/read such things, I fear French will keep their not-so-friendly reputation.
I wouldn't worry about that. At least you are a lot more internationally liked than the British and far more than the Americans (US not Canada, everyone loves Canada).Many times when I travel I pretend to be Canadian instead of American, for that very reason.
At least you are a lot more internationally liked than the British and far more than the Americans (US not Canada, everyone loves Canada).
On behalf of America, I would like to officially apologize for all the silly, annoying (etc.) things we do. I promise that most of us are trying (most of us). Whether it's working or not is another story.
If it's Icelandic you're looking for, might I direct you to the Icelandic learning thread?I am checking it sometimes, I will try something that is lost whjen I have time for them
https://ssssforum.com/index.php?topic=465.0 (https://ssssforum.com/index.php?topic=465.0)
At the very least, you'll get some good music out of it :)
(For me Finnish is easiest to pronounce)
Back when I still lived in Finland we once had four Hungarian exchange students for a semester, and it was such a weird experience for everyone to listen to them talk to each other. The pronunciation was so similar to Finnish that your brain immediately decided they were speaking Finnish, just that you yourself had suddenly stopped understanding your mother tongue. I'm not even kidding, we spoke of this in the classroom a few times and everyone felt the same - the Hungarians included, apparently they too had moments of "why do I think I should understand everything the Finns say but can't?".
(Yay! for Hetalia Nordics.)
Laufey, I had the same experience with Estonian many times when I was younger. Nowadays one hears the language so often that ears have adapted to the small differencies in the melody and rhythm of the languages and recognize Estonian as another language, but still it's funny to listen when one almost understands.
Back when I still lived in Finland we once had four Hungarian exchange students for a semester, and it was such a weird experience for everyone to listen to them talk to each other. The pronunciation was so similar to Finnish that your brain immediately decided they were speaking Finnish, just that you yourself had suddenly stopped understanding your mother tongue. I'm not even kidding, we spoke of this in the classroom a few times and everyone felt the same - the Hungarians included, apparently they too had moments of "why do I think I should understand everything the Finns say but can't?".
Long answer: I've always had this explainable desire to learn languages and I am very curious about linguistics, especially Germanic linguistics. Also most of the members of my family speak at least two languages (my grandpa speaks 5) so I grew up used to hearing a lot of different languages.
Swedish I have kinda learned on and off for fun. I did the duolingo course, but most of my learning happened accidentally and comes from binge watching Swedish crime shows (also Äkta Människor which isn't a crime show but really amazing anyway). As a result, I know exactly what a terrified person should yell in Swedish when being held at gun point.
It's actually a little scary how on the nose both of these are for me. I'm also a total sucker/fangirl for Germanic languages, and Swedish I learned mostly along the way from watching crime shows and Äkta Människor.
Swedish, as above. I wanted to watch Äkta Människor and couldn't find a version available with English subtitles. So, obviously the only solution was to learn Swedish.
All 20 episodes of Äkta Människor used to be up on the RÚV website for free with Icelandic subtitles. It's called Alvöru Fólk in Icelandic. That's how I watched it, and I ended up picking up some bonus Swedish vocab along the way. I don't know if it's still there, I haven't been able to find it since they redid their website layout, but if someone finds it again, please let me know. I would love to rewatch it.
I've never been fluent in anything but English, but my middle school Spanish teacher told me something that stuck when I asked what fluency meant. She said that you're probably fluent when two things happen:I'd agree that it's more of a milestone...I've experienced both with Mandarin, but I wouldn't not consider myself fluent. I think the official litmus test for fluency in Mandarin is knowing somewhere between 2,000 and 3,000 characters, which I definitely don't have. Personally, I've always thought that if you're able to comfortably carry conversations about special interests like politics or academics (or SSSS) and not just small talk, then you're fluent. But maybe that's just another milestone rather than a proper definition of fluency.I don't know if anyone else agrees, and I never achieved a high enough level in Spanish to do either of those things, so I can't comment myself. It seemed less like a definition and more like a milestone. Though perhaps that works better, given the nebulous nature of fluency itself.
- You understand jokes in the language
- You dream in the language
I've never been fluent in anything but English, but my middle school Spanish teacher told me something that stuck when I asked what fluency meant. She said that you're probably fluent when two things happen:I don't know if anyone else agrees, and I never achieved a high enough level in Spanish to do either of those things, so I can't comment myself. It seemed less like a definition and more like a milestone. Though perhaps that works better, given the nebulous nature of fluency itself.
- You understand jokes in the language
- You dream in the language