The Stand Still, Stay Silent Fan-Forum
General => Language Board => Topic started by: Nimphy on October 29, 2014, 09:38:24 AM
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Different languages, different onomatopeias, different exclamations, and much more. This thread is kind of an experiment. What do cats say in your language? What do you scream when you stub your foot? What's the noise of a brain thinking?
Italian:
- Cats go "miao"
- Dogs go "bau"
- Frogs and crows go both "cra" (although frogs mostly go cra-cra)
- Birds go "cip-cip"
- You say "ahia" when you hurt yourself
- Babies cry "ueeee"
- Sneeze: "etciu" (and you say "Salute!" which means "health")
Albanian:
- Cats go "mjau"
- Dogs go "hum"
- Sneeze: "atçu" (and you say "Shëndet", to which sneezing-person replies "U rritç!" Respectively "health" and "let you grow" or something along those lines)
- You say "auç" (pronounced like "ouch") when you walk into a table.
- I have to ask the parental units for more info on the rest
Edit for Fimbulvarg: I KNEW someone was going to say that XD
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But what does the fox say Nimphy?
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Norwegian
Katter (cats) = Mjau (you may have been informed already)
Hunder (dogs) = Voff
Mus (Mice) = Pip
Fugler (birds) = depends on species, but they all tweet (kvitre)
Spurver (Sparrows) = pipip
Gjøk (cuckoo) = Koko
Ravn, kråke og sjur (raven, crows and magpies) = Kra
Ku (cow) = Mø
Sau (Sheep) = Bæ
Gris (pig) = nøff
Ouch= Au/Ao
Snore = snork
sound of Sneezing = Atsjo
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German
Katze (cat) = Miau
Hund (dog) = Wau /Wuff (depends on how aggressive it sounds, I'd say ;) )
Maus (mouse) = Piep
Vogel (bird) = Piep
Kuckuck (cuckoo) = Kuckuck (who would've guessed?)
Kuh (cow) = Muh
Schaf (sheep) = Mäh
Schwein (pig) = oink oink
Ouch= Aua
sound of sneezing = Hatschi (And the you respond "Gesundheit!" which means "Health!")
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Sparky Dragon the Ever Helpful has decided to demonstrate the onomatopeias in English.
- Cats go "meow" or "mew"
- Dogs go "bark" or "woof"
- Frogs and crows both say "croak," but frogs also say "ribbit" and crows also say "Caw"
- Birds go "tweet" or "cheep" or *Whistling noises*
- You say "Ow" or "Ouch" or "@#%!" when you hurt yourself
- Sheep say "Baa"
- Cows say "Moo"
- Babies cry "Waaa"
- A sneeze is "Achoo," and you say "Bless you."
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Finnish:
(I'm adding the verb in italics)
Kissa (cat) : miau / mau, kissa maukuu
Koira (dog) : hau, koira haukkuu
Sammakko (frog) : kurn, sammakko kurnuttaa
Lintu (bird) : titityy / tsirp tsirp, lintu visertää (it's different, I know)
Lehmä (cow) : muu / ammuu, lehmä ammuu
Lammas (sheep) : mää, lammas määkii
Sika (pig): röh röh, sika röhkii
Kukko (cock) : kukkokiekuu, kukko kiekuu
Hevonen (horse) : ihahaa, hevonen hirnuu
Vauva (baby) : yhyy / äääää
you, hurt : ai / aih / au / auts
Aivastus (sneeze) : ätsih
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Français :
Chat (cat) = Miaou
Chien (dog) = Ouah ! or (more recent) Arf !
Âne (donkey) = Hi-han!
Souris (mouse) = ?? Perhaps 'Iiiiiiii' (sounds Tuuri-like : Eeeeee !)
Oiseau (small bird) = Cuicui
Corbeau (crow) = Croa croa
Coq (rooster, cock) = Cocorico
Frog (grenouille) = Coa coa
Coucou (cuckoo) = Coucou (how unexpected...)
Vache (cow) = Meuh
Mouton (sheep) = Bêê
Cochon (pig) = Onk, onk (not standardised)
Ouch= Aïe ! or Ouille !
Sneezing = Atchoum (traditional response "à vos souhaits !", best wishes)
Snore = Rrrron....Pchhhhi...
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Onomatopoeias are always funny~ Let me try something:
Portuguese:
Gato (cat) - Miau
Cachorro (dog) - Au Au
Pássaro (bird) - Piu Piu (but this varies depending on the species).
Macaco (monkey) - Something like "uh uh ha haa!"
Vaca (cow) - Muuu
Ovelha (sheep) - Béééé
Porco (pig) - Oinc Oinc
Sapo (frog) - Rebit
Grilo (cricket) - Cri Cri
Insetos voadores (flying intects) - zuuuuum
Galinha (chicken) - Po po po
Bebês (babies) - Buáááá
When you get hurt - Ai! or @&%#!
Espirro (sneeze) - Atchim! And you say "Saúde"(health).
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I'm also not at all sure why German is German in English, either.
Because Germany was pretty late to form as a united country/territory and from all the Germanic tribes living in that area, the Germanen ("spear-wielding warriors") were closest to Britain and the Alemannen (literal meaning unclear) were closest to France. Hence, "Germany" and "Allemagne".
Similarly, "Saksa" and the like (Finland, Estonia, Old Icelandic) from the Saxons, "bawerski" (Lower Sorbic) from Bavarians, "Frángoi" (Middle Greek) = Franks, Teutons, Vagoth, ...
"Deutsch(land)" itself and the Italian "Tedesci" come from diutisc ("of the people"), a term tweaked over time to designate the group of all local Germanic dialects spoken across the territory.
The Slavic nations mostly use terms related to n?m?ci, a case of the recurring concept to call people who cannot express themselves in your language "mute". Possibly in the same vein, "miksisk?i" (Jatwingian, Old Prussian) = "to stammer".
[Edit for non-Unicode forum: "niemci" and "miksiskai".]
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch_in_anderen_Sprachen
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to JoB : very interesting, hoch interessant ! FYI, in French, we also have the adjective 'tudesque' (cf italian 'tedesco'), which is seldom used, as it is mainly litterary or tongue-in-cheek (but not abwertend, deprecative or insulting).
to Eich : thank you! Simple and effective solution! If you find the time for this, could you maintain in the first post a list of the codes and corresponding flags ?
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The Slavic nations mostly use terms related to n?m?ci, a case of the recurring concept to call people who cannot express themselves in your language "mute". Possibly in the same vein, "miksisk?i" (Jatwingian, Old Prussian) = "to stammer".
[Edit for non-Unicode forum: "niemci" and "miksiskai".]
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch_in_anderen_Sprachen
I feel like I should apologize on behalf of the Slavic nations! Sorry, JoB (and other German-speaking/identifying folks)
But also I just wanted to see if my signature thingy worked.
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I feel like I should apologize on behalf of the Slavic nations! Sorry, JoB (and other German-speaking/identifying folks)
But also I just wanted to see if my signature thingy worked.
As I said, there are more examples of one populace applying its own term for "mute" onto another they don't have a common language with. And I'm not that easy to offend. (Ever heard of the "take the N-word back for ourselves" approach? I'm not comfortable telling those who feel offended by a racial slur "stop those feels and do that if you're smart", but I do happily call myself a Kraut. Even better, Powerkraut! :D )
Oh, and the changed sig appears on your old posts as well, give or take a couple reloads. :P
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Just for fun, I throw there some observations about the (given) names of the Finnish main characters (and main support characters):
Tuuri and Onni are Finnish words that both mean "luck", and out of them Onni can also mean "happiness" (in sense of general well-being rather than outbursts of joy). Out of them, I've seen Onni being generally used as a given name, while I have never encountered a person named Tuuri (there apparently exist some, at least according to the name service site of Finnish population register center (http://verkkopalvelu.vrk.fi/Nimipalvelu/default.asp?L=3), but they are vanishingly rare). However, Tuuri sounds very similar to a common Finnish female name Tuuli, which also means "wind".
While being somewhat synonyms, words "tuuri" and "onni" can mean different things. "Tuuri" refers to coincidence-based luck, like winning in lottery or managing to get at bus stop just in time without looking at clock. "Onni" has boarder meanings, and it can be used in most occasions to replace "tuuri". However, "onni" also can mean general happiness and well-being, which "tuuri" never refers to. Also, "onni" is more formal and less slangish/dialectical word than "tuuri", in modern Finnish at least.
I think that the relationship of these words reflect something about the characters, too: Tuuri being more fidgetty and brash, Onni being more stable.
Lalli is also a real given name in Finnish (though not very common). Its etymology is fuzzy, but the name is best known as the name of possibly existing person in Finnish history. Namely, early Christian history. The pagan guy.
There exist several version of his story, but the main thread of most of them is this: Lalli was away from his home for some time, leaving his wife Kerttu in charge. A Swedish bishop, named Henrik/Henry, who was on his missionary travel / crusade in Finland, visits the house and eats and drinks there, and also feeds his horse. He pays for what he takes and leaves. But after Henrik leaves and when Lalli comes back, Kerttu claims that the bishop took food, drink and hay without paying them back. This enrages Lalli, and he storms after Henrik's sled, killing the bishop with his axe on the ice of Köyliönjärvi.
The stories often also mention that Lalli takes Henrik's mitre and signet ring, but once he puts them on, he can't remove them without tearing out his scalp and finger. Different stories feature also other kinds of details, usually making Lalli the bad guy and Henrik a martyr. (Which personally puzzles me, since you know, Lalli really though that Henrik didn't pay for what he took. Albeit, solving problems by raging with an axe isn't very constructive. Also, some stories imply that the mitre and the signet ring were something Lalli was originally after.)
The pagan influences of Lalli's legend pretty much fit to SSSS!Lalli's mage abilities, though personality-wise SSSS!Lalli appears really different from his legend namesake.
More about Legend!Lalli in Wikipedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lalli)
Taru is a quite typical Finnish female name that means also legend, myth or an epic story (or a lie in most negative uses). I think it fits.
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Just for fun, I throw there some observations about the (given) names of the Finnish main characters (and main support characters):
Tuuri and Onni are Finnish words that both mean "luck", and out of them Onni can also mean "happiness" (in sense of general well-being rather than outbursts of joy). Out of them, I've seen Onni being generally used as a given name, while I have never encountered a person named Tuuri (there apparently exist some, at least according to the name service site of Finnish population register center (http://verkkopalvelu.vrk.fi/Nimipalvelu/default.asp?L=3), but they are vanishingly rare). However, Tuuri sounds very similar to a common Finnish female name Tuuli, which also means "wind".
While being somewhat synonyms, words "tuuri" and "onni" can mean different things. "Tuuri" refers to coincidence-based luck, like winning in lottery or managing to get at bus stop just in time without looking at clock. "Onni" has boarder meanings, and it can be used in most occasions to replace "tuuri". However, "onni" also can mean general happiness and well-being, which "tuuri" never refers to. Also, "onni" is more formal and less slangish/dialectical word than "tuuri", in modern Finnish at least.
I think that the relationship of these words reflect something about the characters, too: Tuuri being more fidgetty and brash, Onni being more stable.
Lalli is also a real given name in Finnish (though not very common). Its etymology is fuzzy, but the name is best known as the name of possibly existing person in Finnish history. Namely, early Christian history. The pagan guy.
There exist several version of his story, but the main thread of most of them is this: Lalli was away from his home for some time, leaving his wife Kerttu in charge. A Swedish bishop, named Henrik/Henry, who was on his missionary travel / crusade in Finland, visits the house and eats and drinks there, and also feeds his horse. He pays for what he takes and leaves. But after Henrik leaves and when Lalli comes back, Kerttu claims that the bishop took food, drink and hay without paying them back. This enrages Lalli, and he storms after Henrik's sled, killing the bishop with his axe on the ice of Köyliönjärvi.
The stories often also mention that Lalli takes Henrik's mitre and signet ring, but once he puts them on, he can't remove them without tearing out his scalp and finger. Different stories feature also other kinds of details, usually making Lalli the bad guy and Henrik a martyr. (Which personally puzzles me, since you know, Lalli really though that Henrik didn't pay for what he took. Albeit, solving problems by raging with an axe isn't very constructive. Also, some stories imply that the mitre and the signet ring were something Lalli was originally after.)
The pagan influences of Lalli's legend pretty much fit to SSSS!Lalli's mage abilities, though personality-wise SSSS!Lalli appears really different from his legend namesake.
More about Legend!Lalli in Wikipedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lalli)
Taru is a quite typical Finnish female name that means also legend, myth or an epic story (or a lie in most negative uses). I think it fits.
Okay, while we appreciate the effort, Minna has already told us all of this AND it's not quite a translation. I'd appreciate it if this thread was simple to look through. :-[
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Oh dear! Sorry. Better consideration next time! *was boiling with explaining these all this day* But at least I got that out :'D Moving on~
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Okay, while we appreciate the effort, Minna has already told us all of this AND it's not quite a translation. I'd appreciate it if this thread was simple to look through. :-[
Oh dear! Sorry. Better consideration next time! *was boiling with explaining these all this day* But at least I got that out :'D Moving on~
It's not really a problem though. It's good to have this somewhere for those who don't feel like running through all the comments, and it is sort of a translation, so it fits well enough. It's not like random comments about other people's translations are any better to fill the thread with (or worse).
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It's not really a problem though. It's good to have this somewhere for those who don't feel like running through all the comments, and it is sort of a translation, so it fits well enough. It's not like random comments about other people's translations are any better to fill the thread with (or worse).
Yup, she's right! I wasn't telling that only to you... I've just noticed that many people randomly post stuff in here that are not real translations (while yours was, in fact a translation) without reading the rules first >:( So yeah, I wasn't exactly speaking directly to you... more like leaving a clue for everyone else...
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How interesting! I was wondering why each of Germany's neighbors had adopted a different ethnonym for it. (In Spanish, it's "alemán.")
Some paging through the American Heritage Dictionary (which is good for word origins) yielded an interesting factoid: The "Ger-" in "Germany," meaning "spear," is the same as the "gar-" in "garlic"! (Which was "spear-leek" in Old English.)
I used to think the name "Germany" was related to the words germane/german, meaning "related" (as in the old term "cousin-german"), and the Spanish word "hermano/a" for "brother/sister." (One of the language boards mentioned that Spanish and Portuguese are odd men out among Romance languages for not using descendants of the Latin "frater" and "soror.")
But the AHD says the latter words stem from the Latin "germanus" (related, of the same race), from "germen" (offshoot, fetus, seed).
I read somewhere that the tribe name "Alemanni" = "All the manni/warriors." Is that accurate?
And is Frank->"Frangoi" where the term "Varangian" came from?
One last bit of language trivia: The Greeks called all the uncivilized countries (non-Greeks) "barbarians" because all they could do was babble "bar, bar, bla, bla" instead of speaking Koine like civilized people...
Because Germany was pretty late to form as a united country/territory and from all the Germanic tribes living in that area, the Germanen ("spear-wielding warriors") were closest to Britain and the Alemannen (literal meaning unclear) were closest to France. Hence, "Germany" and "Allemagne".
Similarly, "Saksa" and the like (Finland, Estonia, Old Icelandic) from the Saxons, "bawerski" (Lower Sorbic) from Bavarians, "Frángoi" (Middle Greek) = Franks, Teutons, Vagoth, ...
"Deutsch(land)" itself and the Italian "Tedesci" come from diutisc ("of the people"), a term tweaked over time to designate the group of all local Germanic dialects spoken across the territory.
The Slavic nations mostly use terms related to n?m?ci, a case of the recurring concept to call people who cannot express themselves in your language "mute". Possibly in the same vein, "miksisk?i" (Jatwingian, Old Prussian) = "to stammer".
[Edit for non-Unicode forum: "niemci" and "miksiskai".]
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch_in_anderen_Sprachen
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Oh dear! Sorry. Better consideration next time! *was boiling with explaining these all this day* But at least I got that out :'D Moving on~
No, I liked it! I'd never seen any explanation of Taru's name (and you're right, "tall tale" is perfect for her). And while Minna had translated Tuuri's and Onni's names, I'd never seen such a careful, detailed explanation of the difference between the two words and the proper contexts for each. If we meet other Finnish characters, or hear new Finnish expressions, I'd enjoy a similar explanation.
Lalli killing the bishop, we did hear about previously.
So consider this a split decision? And please don't stop posting!
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Alrighty then! (And no worries, you won't get rid of me that easily!) But I'm curious. Where did Minna post about these? In the comments of a page? I would like to read and compare our explanations and perhaps see her original intentions with naming characters.
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Alrighty then! (And no worries, you won't get rid of me that easily!) But I'm curious. Where did Minna post about these? In the comments of a page? I would like to read and compare our explanations and perhaps see her original intentions with naming characters.
Think it was in the comments of that page where their names first showed up, but I'm not sure.
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I read somewhere that the tribe name "Alemanni" = "All the manni/warriors." Is that accurate?
The relation from "man(n)" to "men" (which, given the back then customs, meant free male citizens, who were expected to serve as warriors in a loosely similar way to what we know from the later knights) is pretty obvious, but for some reason, the linguists apparently still don't trust the "Ale" -> "all" connection ...
And is Frank->"Frangoi" where the term "Varangian" came from?
Doesn't seem like it ... (http://dict.leo.org/forum/viewWrongentry.php?idThread=40425&idForum=6)
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The relation from "man(n)" to "men" (which, given the back then customs, meant free male citizens, who were expected to serve as warriors in a loosely similar way to what we know from the later knights) is pretty obvious, but for some reason, the linguists apparently still don't trust the "Ale" -> "all" connection ...
Doesn't seem like it ... (http://dict.leo.org/forum/viewWrongentry.php?idThread=40425&idForum=6)
It would seem an etymology-thread for our brand new language board might be required.
Those linguists and their trust issues.
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Think it was in the comments of that page where their names first showed up, but I'm not sure.
Right in the author's comment on the page introducing Onni and Tuuri (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=72) - as far as those two are concerned.
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It would seem an etymology-thread for our brand new language board might be required.
Those linguists and their trust issues.
That is an exceedingly good idea. All this etymology is incredibly interesting, and needs its proper place.
By the way, thank you JoB! My German confusion has ended. Now I just need to know, why "Dutch"... I'll go look it up.
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Now I just need to know, why "Dutch"... I'll go look it up.
Presto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_language#Dutch.2C_not_Deutsch).
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Then, just to confuse things, the U.S. has the Pennsylvania Dutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Dutch). Who are not Dutch but German, mostly arriving from the Rhine-Palatinate in the late 17th and 18th centuries. (Known for good, hearty, plain cooking and lots of it, a rather blunt sense of humor, and quaint folk art, such as hex signs on barns.)
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Then, just to confuse things, the U.S. has the Pennsylvania Dutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Dutch). Who are not Dutch but German, mostly arriving from the Rhine-Palatinate in the late 17th and 18th centuries. (Known for good, hearty, plain cooking and lots of it, a rather blunt sense of humor, and quaint folk art, such as hex signs on barns.)
BY THE WAY!
Any objections to sawing off the latest dozen-or-so messages about etymology to their own thread in the Language board? I could just copy-and-paste all into one new post, but I think our forum mods could actually move them.
I want to encourage this discussion, but in a place where it won't get in the way of the original purpose. (And then I can tell you how "Yankee" comes from a Dutch phrase.)
I've been waiting for you to, actually! ;)
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If anyone is interested....
Apparently the Italian word for "hello" ("ciao") comes from the Venetian s'ciavo, which in return comes from latin sclavus, AKA "slave". When meeting someone, by greeting them, you put yourself at their service. Now, of course, "ciao" simply means "hello".
And Shqipëri, shqip, shqiptar (respectively Albania, Albanian (language), Albanian (person)) come from the word shqiponjë - "eagle". Albanians love their eagles.
Or at least that's what everyone tells me and what is commonly told in Albania - some linguists think otherwise. Bah!
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Finnish language has a nickname for Germans, "sakemanni", which sounds like a combination of the "saksalainen" (saxon person) and the foreign "allemange" version. I couldn't find any certain information about the origin. It might come from hearing Germans use the word "man" frequently too. To my knowledge this name isn't really pejorative, but I might still be wary of using it anyway.
For those who aren't familiar with Wiktionary yet, here's a sample page: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/example
Basically it's a sister project of Wikipedia, so while it's quite accurate there might be some mistakes or controversial opinions on etymology here and there. It also includes deceaced and intermediate languages (like Old Norse or Old French). For me the site is quite addictive as you can easily get sucked into the stream of root words whenever you check a word. ;D
You can also install it as a search engine add on to Firefox (and most likely to Chrome too). I've also assigned a keyword for it so I can just type "wikiword searchterm" to the address bar and it'll go straight to the word or the search results. However, this is not really neccessary unless you want to use the site constantly and want to speed things up a little.
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Speaking of Finland... I wonder of any Finns can explain to me where the name came from? I remember reading somewhere that the Finnish alphabet does not even have the letter F (or, very very rarely), and since they call themselves Suomi, where would "Finland" originate?
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where would "Finland" originate?
I think we already had that topic, but I don't remember where ...
Anyway: Presto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland#Etymology).
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Moreover from Wikipedia article on Finns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns#Etymology):
... the etymologies of the names remain equally sketchy. Such names as Fenni, Phinnoi, Finnum, and Skrithfinni / Scridefinnum appear in a few written texts starting from about two millennia ago in association with peoples located in a northern part of Europe, but the real meaning of these terms is debatable. The earliest mentions of this kind are usually interpreted to have meant Fennoscandian hunter-gatherers whose closest successors in modern terms would be the Sami people. It has been suggested that this non-Uralic ethnonym is of Germanic language origin and related to such words as finthan (Old High German) 'find', 'notice'; fanthian (Old High German) 'check', 'try'; and fendo (Old High German) and vende (Old Middle German) 'pedestrian', 'wanderer'. Another etymological interpretation associates this ethnonym with fen in a more toponymical approach.
If I remember correctly the word first appears in the writings of the Roman historian Tacitus where he placed tribe called Fenni somewhere around modern Latvia or Estonia. Without a doubt he got the name through the germanic tribes since direct contact seems almost impossible. This notion supports the traditional explanation, to my knowledge, that is it was a name given to the finnic tribes by other European peoples. Suomi is the Finno-ugric word which nobody propably understood (like most still haven't got a clue about Finnish words without studying it :P) and therefore they had to invent a new one that would fit better the phonotactics their language had. What that (possibly) Germanic word then meant can be guessed in the manner of the above quote, but I don't think we'll ever find out that for sure.
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On the topic of the etymology of the name for Germany: This map sorts it nicely into groups based on theoretical origins (http://i.imgur.com/eeOdUz6.png). Apparently the names used by Lithuania and Latvia are the less obvious ones.
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On the topic of the etymology of the name for Germany: This map sorts it nicely into groups based on theoretical origins (http://i.imgur.com/eeOdUz6.png). Apparently the names used by Lithuania and Latvia are the less obvious ones.
While the similarity of the names used in Norway/Sweden/Iceland doesn't surprise me, it's interesting that Finland of all places would be the only other place that has a name similar to the actual German word for itself.
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*Ahem*
The ethymology of the name Lalli is not fuzzy. It's one version of Lauri, which in it's turn is short of Laurentius (nowadays more common forms of the name are Lassi and Lasse). Thus the Lalli of the legend was clearly a baptised christian, otherwise he would have had a Finnish name instead of one of Latin origin. The name of his wife Kerttu (=Gertrud) speaks for this too.
The reason for the murder of bishop Henrik was quite probably the fact that as a representative of the organized church that was gaining a foothold in a country where christianity had thus far been spread only by wandering priests and monks, Henrik demanded his due tithe. From Lalli and Kerttu's point of view he was simply a thief robbing them of their much needed food and animal fodder in the middle of winter. Is it a wonder that Lalli went after the robber and killed him? He was simply defending his people and taking back what belonged to them.
The church of course made it's own version of the story, and Henrik is unfortunately still our "national saint" though in my opinion that honor should belong to Lalli.
About the other names: Yes, Onni means luck and happiness in modern Finnish, but originally it was synonymous with the word osa, "part". It meant literally the part of the meat and other eatables that a member of a hunting party got from the animal that had been killed together. So Onni, "luck, happiness", means literally having lots of food.
And yes, Tuuri also means luck nowadays, both in Finnish and in Swedish (tur), but the meaning comes originally from a longer wording for lucky/safe journey. I find it very fitting to have such a name on a journey to the Silent Lands =)
Taru is synonymous with the Scandinavian name Saga. (Lord of the Rings btw is Sagan om Ringen in Swedish and Taru Sormusten Herrasta in Finnish). There's also a synonymous name Satu, but it refers to fairy tale. Taru is a more serious kind of story: a legend, a saga.
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Thanks to all of you, exotic (as seen from here, down South) Finns ! You do help in getting a better understanding of the Minnaverse. Albeit your posts are not translations strictly speaking, they bring something relevant. Perhaps should we find a better, broader name for the thread ? If there is something interesting and relevant to know about, say, Mora, swedish forumists might perhaps contribute ?
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A place where we can talk about the roots and meanings of certain names in different languages. Kind of like the Etymology topic but for names!
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I love this topic too much. Going to throw out Behind the Name (http://www.behindthename.com/) as my go-to source for all things name-related, while I try to figure out how to discuss the etymology of my name without actually revealing it :P.
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I'll start with Lalli.
Akkording to the Nordic Names Wiki (http://www.nordicnames.de/wiki/Lalle) Lalli (male) is a variation of "Lalle" which is a petform of the name Laurentius. This dates back to Latin and means "guy from Laurentum (place in ancient Roman Empire).
The Female meaning is more fascinating as it is a variation of "Lalla" which is a petform of five different names:
Laila (see Láilá), refers to the Sami name Áilá, which is a variation of Helga dating back to the old norse meaning of Helgi (male name): Meaining someone dedicated to the old gods.
Haralda (see *HarjawaldaR) (Ruler of an army)
Olava, female Variation of the old norse name Anulai?aR (male) meaning: ancestor/inheritance (Anu and Leif)
Laura, short form of Laurentia see Laurentius
Lahja, finnish origin, meaning "gift"
I like the female origin referring to Láilá best, as finnish mages are dedicated to the old gods if I remember correctly.
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That's really cool, kex. Here, I'll tell you about my username????. Revontulet is a Finnish name. I think it comes from "Repo," the nickname for fox(kettu) and "tuli," which means fire. The literal translation is "fox fire." This probably refers to the Northern Lights, which were explained by the Finns as the result of foxes running through the snowy landscapes, swishing their tails along, creating sparks that were the Northern Lights. It's a really pretty name, when you think about it, and has a really cool backstory, just like Láilá does. :D
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In Italian, when you mess up, you say "ops!" Which is the Italianized way of saying "oops."
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In Italian, when you mess up, you say "ops!" Which is the Italianized way of saying "oops."
Ah. In Norwegian we say "**************" when we mess up. "Ops" is also an alternative.
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That's really cool, kex. Here, I'll tell you about my username????. Revontulet is a Finnish name. I think it comes from "Repo," the nickname for fox(kettu) and "tuli," which means fire. The literal translation is "fox fire." This probably refers to the Northern Lights, which were explained by the Finns as the result of foxes running through the snowy landscapes, swishing their tails along, creating sparks that were the Northern Lights. It's a really pretty name, when you think about it, and has a really cool backstory, just like Láilá does. :D
This meaning is nice. Also I like the singer of the russian Band called the same name ;). Her voice is slightly different from Tarja (whose name is a finnish version of a persian name meaning possession) Turunen's but her manner is much nicer.
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I just decided to look up Minna's name. Minna is an Old Germanic name, which comes from Wilhemina. It means "determined protector." As for her last name, Sundberg, I think berg, is a Nordic variation of the German "burg," which means mountain, mount, or cliff. In German, burg is the name for city, and a few German words, such as bürgermeister(mayor). As for "Sund," in Swedish, it means sound/healthy, or it can mean a sound or strait(referring to bodies of water). In Faroese, it also means sound or channel(water). So her last name could mean" (of the) on the sound/strait/ mountain on the sound/strait. So all in all, it's "determined protector of the mountain/city on the sound/strait( It's cool how the first name ties in with the last, although it's probably a coincidence). BUT, I could be wrong.
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I just decided to look up Minna's name. Minna is an Old Germanic name, which comes from Wilhemina. It means "determined protector." As for her last name, Sundberg, I think berg, is a Nordic variation of the German "burg," which means mountain, mount, or cliff. In German, burg is the name for city, and a few German words, such as bürgermeister(mayor). As for "Sund," in Swedish, it means sound/healthy, or it can mean a sound or strait(referring to bodies of water). In Faroese, it also means sound or channel(water). So her last name could mean" (of the) on the sound/strait/ mountain on the sound/strait. So all in all, it's "determined protector of the mountain/city on the sound/strait( It's cool how the first name ties in with the last, although it's probably a coincidence). BUT, I could be wrong.
Actually, "Berg" is German for "mountain", and "Burg" means "castle" or "fortress" (yep, there's a lot of towns who have those in their name, simply because they were build near a castle or mountain, or, well, hill), while the "Bürger" in "Bürgermeister" means "citizen", which makes that person the "master of the citizens", but considering there were many citizens in castles, the etymologic origin of "Burg" and "Bürger" might be the same.
Well, at least you got the translation in Minna's name right.
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Actually, "Berg" is German for "mountain", and "Burg" means "castle" or "fortress" (yep, there's a lot of towns who have those in their name, simply because they were build near a castle or mountain, or, well, hill), while the "Bürger" in "Bürgermeister" means "citizen", which makes that person the "master of the citizens", but considering there were many citizens in castles, the etymologic origin of "Burg" and "Bürger" might be the same.
Well, at least you got the translation in Minna's name right.
Hey, thanks for correcting me! As I put in the post, I wasn't really sure about if it was right or not(my German is very rudimentary). However, by translating Burg as "city," I was implying that the fact that in the Middle Ages, the cites that started to pop up were called burgs, because they were built within fortifications to defend against invaders was well known. Hills and mountains were also strategic locations for cities and/or castles, so that may be why the two terms are related. That's why the citizens were called Bürgers, and as you said, the master of the citizens, or mayor, was the "Bürgermeister." Despite that, it's great to have someone to discuss this with! I love languages and names, and sometimes I find we take our names for granted without finding out what they mean. After all, in ancient times, names were closely tied to a person's destiny( like in the Bible, the name 'Shem," one of Noah's sons from whom the Jewish people descended means "name" in Hebrew, because the line of Shem, according to the Bible, is the line from which modern Jews and eventually, Christians came from. In fact, Jews are also known as Semites, which is an abbreviated version of Shemites, which the Jews were previously referred to as).
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If anyone is interested....
Apparently the Italian word for "hello" ("ciao") comes from the Venetian s'ciavo, which in return comes from latin sclavus, AKA "slave". When meeting someone, by greeting them, you put yourself at their service. Now, of course, "ciao" simply means "hello".
And Shqipëri, shqip, shqiptar (respectively Albania, Albanian (language), Albanian (person)) come from the word shqiponjë - "eagle". Albanians love their eagles.
Or at least that's what everyone tells me and what is commonly told in Albania - some linguists think otherwise. Bah!
Makes sense, especially since in Italian, "schiavo" means slave. In normal Latin(not Church Latin), the "v" in "sclavus" would have been pronounced as a "w" in English. Thus, it would be pronounced as "sclawus," so it's easy to imagine why the "v" sound is omitted and the "ai" sounds remotely like a "w" in "ciao." It probably doesn't sound exactly like a "w" because the Venetian dialect is different from standard Italian in words and pronunciation. That's pretty cool, huh?
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Hey, thanks for correcting me! As I put in the post, I wasn't really sure about if it was right or not(my German is very rudimentary). However, by translating Burg as "city," I was implying that the fact that in the Middle Ages, the cites that started to pop up were called burgs, because they were built within fortifications to defend against invaders was well known. Hills and mountains were also strategic locations for cities and/or castles, so that may be why the two terms are related. That's why the citizens were called Bürgers, and as you said, the master of the citizens, or mayor, was the "Bürgermeister." Despite that, it's great to have someone to discuss this with! I love languages and names, and sometimes I find we take our names for granted without finding out what they mean. After all, in ancient times, names were closely tied to a person's destiny( like in the Bible, the name 'Shem," one of Noah's sons from whom the Jewish people descended means "name" in Hebrew, because the line of Shem, according to the Bible, is the line from which modern Jews and eventually, Christians came from. In fact, Jews are also known as Semites, which is an abbreviated version of Shemites, which the Jews were previously referred to as).
Wow, I'm so glad I joined this community of SSSS readers - I learn new things every day!
And now that you mention it, I think I remember to have heard/read somewhere that the first cities (or what you could consider cities) where indeed fortified, first with wooden piles, later with stone walls, since the environment (and neighbouring peoples) wasn't as friendly as they are today, simply speaking.
But since that is getting a bit off-topic, something about our dear Emil:
his name is derived from the roman name Aemilius, which itself comes from the greek aimylos/aimylios, meaning "charming", "endearing" or "clever".
And I think someone somewhere mentioned it before, but "Västerström" is compunded of the words for west and river/stream/current, resulting again in a geographical origin.
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Indeed the German word for "castle" Burg refers to the germanic "burc" which was a mostly fortified safe place. The connection between Burg und Berg (mountain) is uncertain though some linguists assume that "Burg" in reference to "Berg" was a fortified hollow, so the connection would be of the hight. The similar usage between Burg as castla and city goes back to the 8th century and exists in other languages as well, like borough (Edinborough for example), swedisch borg or gothic baúrgs.
At one of my ethic lessons with the nine year olds we discussed the meanings of their names. I gave them the meaning without knowing to which name these belonged and they had to choose. Most chose something different from their name but liked the meaning nevertheless. I was left with only one sad child out of nine. One girl disliked that her name refered to the ability of talking much to others.
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About city names : many French cities have 'château' or 'châtel' (North) or 'castel' (South) in their name. Same causes, same effects. :)
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I'll start with Lalli.
Akkording to the Nordic Names Wiki (http://www.nordicnames.de/wiki/Lalle) Lalli (male) is a variation of "Lalle" which is a petform of the name Laurentius. This dates back to Latin and means "guy from Laurentum (place in ancient Roman Empire).
I feel like I need to thank you just for linking to that site! *squirrels away for future use* It's always nice to have something to back up BehindTheName, as they aren't always 100% accurate...
Since some people are talking about usernames... Mine is a Russian word meaning "nightingale"... I tried to look up the etymology but sadly couldn't find anything.
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Since some people are talking about usernames... Mine is a Russian word meaning "nightingale"... I tried to look up the etymology but sadly couldn't find anything.
It reminds me of the Scandinavian name Solveig, but the etymology is clearl different so that's just chance.
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I feel like I need to thank you just for linking to that site! *squirrels away for future use* It's always nice to have something to back up BehindTheName, as they aren't always 100% accurate...
Since some people are talking about usernames... Mine is a Russian word meaning "nightingale"... I tried to look up the etymology but sadly couldn't find anything.
Maybe you would like to look up here (http://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B9)? As it is stated, it may originate from a very old adjective naming specific color.
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Maybe you would like to look up here (http://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B9)? As it is stated, it may originate from a very old adjective naming specific color.
Oh gosh, I feel like an idiot now, I didn't even think to check the russian wiktionary site! (Sorry, had a long day running errands) Thank you, curiosity!
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Makes sense, especially since in Italian, "schiavo" means slave. In normal Latin(not Church Latin), the "v" in "sclavus" would have been pronounced as a "w" in English. Thus, it would be pronounced as "sclawus," so it's easy to imagine why the "v" sound is omitted and the "ai" sounds remotely like a "w" in "ciao." It probably doesn't sound exactly like a "w" because the Venetian dialect is different from standard Italian in words and pronunciation. That's pretty cool, huh?
Thanks, that's interesting!
"Sclavus" is the medieval Latin term for "slave" because it's derived from Slav -- i.e. Slavic captives and POWs during the Migration Ages. "Servus" was the classical Latin word for "slave", and gave rise to "serf" and "servant."
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Thanks, that's interesting!
"Sclavus" is the medieval Latin term for "slave" because it's derived from Slav -- i.e. Slavic captives and POWs during the Migration Ages. "Servus" was the classical Latin word for "slave", and gave rise to "serf" and "servant."
And Servus is still a common Austrian greeting so apparently slaves are still popular.
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And Servus is still a common Austrian greeting so apparently slaves are still popular.
Austrian, but also Bavarian and in the German Metal scene many use it as well ;). In the younger generations the use has increased replacing the more typical Bavarian "Grüß Gott" (greet god) or "Griaß di!" (dialect für greetings to you).
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And Servus is still a common Austrian greeting so apparently slaves are still popular.
In the younger generations the use has increased replacing the more typical Bavarian "Grüß Gott" (greet god) [...]
And if I may point that out for the sake of readers in less of a command of the German language, "Servus" is not any more approving of slavery as "how can I be of service" and "Grüß' Gott" is not usually followed by assassination so as to provide an occasion to do so. :P
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That was worth explaining - misunderstandings happen soooo easily ! ;)
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Oh yes. Never thought about that.
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You German speakers are crazy! Greet God! Greetings that approve of slavery! Wishing people to go bald (as in bis bald)!
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You German speakers are crazy! Greet God! Greetings that approve of slavery! Wishing people to go bald (as in bis bald)!
Nooooooo. Nobody wishes anyone to be bald. Maybe sometimes. If they have too much hairspray in their hair that it stings your nose sitting besides them...
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You German speakers are crazy! Greet God! Greetings that approve of slavery! Wishing people to go bald (as in bis bald)!
You forgot the probably most common nation-wide, "Mahlzeit!"
(Which occasionally prompts me to ask which color I'm supposed to paint time with.)
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You forgot the probably most common nation-wide, "Mahlzeit!"
(Which occasionally prompts me to ask which color I'm supposed to paint time with.)
Mahlzeit is in fact a quite interesting word, though it sounds like the German word for painting (malen) it refers to milling (which you would need to do with certain ingredients before you can use them for painting). So "Mahl-Zeit" is the time to mill your food, or, as teeth are involved, to grind everything that comes between your teeth. Because it works like the regular millstone.
And I am sure JoB might no more about the words ancestries.
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I always thought "Mahlzeit" refers to the time you eat (=have your meal). Because the only occasion when I'd use it is during lunch break and such.
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I always thought "Mahlzeit" refers to the time you eat (=have your meal). Because the only occasion when I'd use it is during lunch break and such.
We actually have practically the same word, "måltid", "mål"+time. Mål otherwise means goal or language so I assume it's a loanword from German.
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I always thought "Mahlzeit" refers to the time you eat (=have your meal). Because the only occasion when I'd use it is during lunch break and such.
And while you have your meal you mill your food between your teeth ;).
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I always thought "Mahlzeit" refers to the time you eat (=have your meal). Because the only occasion when I'd use it is during lunch break and such.
"Mahl", the direct equivalent of "meal", is supposedly (http://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Mahl) derived from "Mal" ("time" as in point in time, occasion, countable events a la "three times"); I guess that makes "Mahlzeit" a pleonasm. ;)
"mahlen" is apparently a lot older, appearing in the 9th century ("Mahl" in the 13th), though with an entirely different conjugation (http://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/mahlen) back then.
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"Mahl", the direct equivalent of "meal", is supposedly (http://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Mahl) derived from "Mal" ("time" as in point in time, occasion, countable events a la "three times"); I guess that makes "Mahlzeit" a pleonasm. ;)
"mahlen" is apparently a lot older, appearing in the 9th century ("Mahl" in the 13th), though with an entirely different conjugation (http://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/mahlen) back then.
I wonder if it's related to the Swedish "måltid" at all...
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What I really want to talk about is Lalli: why is he called Lalli ?
I love the name (it sounds great, phonetically speaking), but it's extremely uncommon in Finland, and it's very much tied to Lalli, a character of Finnish folklore that has a pretty gruesome story (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lalli). Depending on the versions, Lalli can be considered as some kind of freedom fighter (as wikipedia says), as a revolutionary / folk hero / generally positive figure. But in (mainly medieval) Christian versions, he is an extremely negative character. Depending on which version of the story you've been exposed to (or how you interpret it), the name Lalli can evoke either good feelings or violent, gruesome and generally horrible feelings.
So, the question is: why did Minna call Lalli Lalli, as opposed to many other very pretty, old, and traditional Finnish names ? What links could there possibly be between Lalli the cat night scout, and Lalli the peasant murderer / revolutionary hero ? Or, am I just fishing, and there is no link at all... the name just sounds nice. (But I really can't see why Minna would name her character with such a heavily meaningful and rare name if not for a reason ?!)
If you have any other comments about the Swedish, Icelandic, Norwegian or Danish names of the characters, please, I want to know !
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Swedish "tid" is the 'cognate' word to German "zeit"; they correspond to English "tide".
Initial z- in German generally corresponds to t- in the other Germanic languages.
tooth—Zand
to—zu
two—zwei
ten—zehn
tale—Zahl
tear—zerren
teach—zeigen
…
(note that the meanings have sometimes drifted, so these words, although they share an etymology, are not always the exact translation of each other)
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Lalli, a character of Finnish folklore that has a pretty gruesome story.
as for the rarity of the name, I suppose that when the rash survivors picked the old religion, the folkloric names grew in popularity, while less "nordic" names fell in disuse (eg: no more "Michaels")
an for the background of that other Lalli, if I may extrapolate a bit (actually, an awful lot) from what little info is on the english wikipedia: he killed a bishop for being self-serving. So it's basically the One God VS (I suppose) the Old Gods... now in SSSS, the followers of the ancient religion are relatively well-off, while the Christian are basically dead. (here is where I shoot blindfolded at a distant target) We could therefore see the old Gods as salvation, while Christianity would be linked to the rash disease. And here comes Lalli, famous for killing representatives of the Church, about to lay waste on the Beasts, Trolls and Giants ;D
So in fact that names tells us that [spoiler alert: the ending of SSSS] the team (at least, their scout) will go to the root of the Rash problem and cut its head (we were told they'd travel far)
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And here comes Lalli, famous for killing representatives of the Church, about to lay waste on the Beasts, Trolls and Giants ;D
this makes perfect sense, and the logic of the assumptions is undeniable. :P :P
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It's certainly both too early and definitely off-topic, but I'm curious to see what Minna has prepared about the religion issue. Because (slightly back to topic) Emil is a christian name.
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Swedish "tid" is the 'cognate' word to German "zeit"; they correspond to English "tide".
Initial z- in German generally corresponds to t- in the other Germanic languages.
but it gets even cooler!
somehow, swedish (and english) t often shows up in place of german d (or z, like you said), but on the other hand, swedish (and english) d occurs in many places where german has t! just a couple of examples...
:sweden: dotter — :germany: tochter — :uk: daughter
:sweden: dyr — :germany: teuer — :uk: expensive (cognate: dear)
:sweden: dröm — :germany: Traum — :uk: dream
:sweden: djävul — :germany: Teufel — :uk: devil
:sweden: djup — :germany: tief — :uk: deep
:sweden: djur — :germany: Tier — :uk: animal (cognate: deer)
:sweden: dricka — :germany: trinken — :uk: drink
and then on the other hand we have the exact opposite happening, with swedish t and english th showing up when german has a d.
:sweden: tre — :germany: drei — :uk: three
:sweden: betyda — :germany: bedeuten — :uk: signify (this one's doubled up, with t/d each swapped for each other!)
:sweden: tack — :germany: Danke — :uk: thanks
:sweden: Tyskland — :germany: Deutschland — :uk: germany (but cognate dutch bucks the pattern)
:sweden: tumme — :germany: Daumen — :uk: thumb
:sweden: tänka/tycka — :germany: denken — :uk: think
:sweden: ting — :germany: Ding — :uk: thing
and so on.
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Thanks, that's interesting!
"Sclavus" is the medieval Latin term for "slave" because it's derived from Slav -- i.e. Slavic captives and POWs during the Migration Ages. "Servus" was the classical Latin word for "slave", and gave rise to "serf" and "servant."
That's also really cool. The "clavus" part of "sclavus" comes from the Latin word "clave," meaning key. So combining your and my explanations, it basically meant something like " Slavs under key." It's true though that the Classical Latin for slave was servus. That's where the Italian word "servi" and eventually the English word that carries the same meaning( though servi can also be a verb in the "you" form) came from. It came from the genitive form of "servus," which is "servi." In Latin, because the Genitive case is the possessive case, it literally translates to "of the slave." Also, "servi" can be the nominative plural form of servus. So that would literally translate as "slaves."(nominative is the subject of the sentence). His is so cool though! Every word goes back to another one and so on...
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Swedish "tid" is the 'cognate' word to German "zeit"; they correspond to English "tide".
Initial z- in German generally corresponds to t- in the other Germanic languages.
tooth—Zand
to—zu
two—zwei
ten—zehn
tale—Zahl
tear—zerren
teach—zeigen
…
(note that the meanings have sometimes drifted, so these words, although they share an etymology, are not always the exact translation of each other)
This is really illuminating!
Re: tid/Zeit/tide, I think an even closer cognate in English would be "tidings," an antique word for "news." (The King James Bible, translated c. 1600, uses it prominently, e.g. in the Christmas story: "I bring you good tidings of great joy.")
Strengthening the "news" parallel (says the former journalist), "tid" and "Zeit" are both common elements in names of Scandinavian and German newspapers, e.g. the Bergens Tidende (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergens_Tidende) our prologue characters read.
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This is really illuminating!
Re: tid/Zeit/tide, I think an even closer cognate in English would be "tidings," an antique word for "news." (The King James Bible, translated c. 1600, uses it prominently, e.g. in the Christmas story: "I bring you good tidings of great joy.")
Strengthening the "news" parallel (says the former journalist), "tid" and "Zeit" are both common elements in names of Scandinavian and German newspapers, e.g. the Bergens Tidende (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergens_Tidende) our prologue characters read.
you're on target there! :uk: "tidings", :germany: "Zeitung", and :sweden: "tidning" are all composed of the same etymological building blocks.
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It is so great to start a day reading amazing stuff like this. I always knew there was to be some link, but t-z linking never occured to me. Ok, I never studied linguistics, but this type of knowledge is gorgeous.
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It is so great to start a day reading amazing stuff like this. I always knew there was to be some link, but t-z linking never occurred to me. Ok, I never studied linguistics, but this type of knowledge is gorgeous.
Yes, it is!
Several years ago, I worked at a technology startup in San Francisco that hired a lot of Ph.D. linguists to build a concept-based search engine. I was so envious of all the principles they knew about language and how it works. Like Grimm's Law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimm%27s_law (Yep, the same Grimms of fairy-tale fame.)
Or whatever law it is that words starting in H in Classical Greek show up starting in S in Latin (both presumably having descended from a much older common ancestor).
Examples:
Hepta- :greece: "seven" Septem [Latin] "Seven"
Hal, hales :greece: "the sea," hence "salty" Sal, salis "Salt" (cf. "halides" and "halogen"; "salary")
Herpes :greece: "creeping," "latent," hence "creeping THING, e.g. snake" Serpes [Latin] "snake"
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To expend a bit:
The original ancestor germanic tongue had three consonants t d th (the latter often written þ or ð).
English and Icelandic preserved all three consonants as such (though in modern Icelandic, t is pronounced with strong aspiration, and d is pronounced more like t, but without aspiration).
German (and other closely related languages, like Yiddish, I think) turned t into z/ss (depending on position in the word), d into t, and th into d.
Other Germanic languages preserved t d, but turned th into something else (generally tor d).
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There is the Old Gods.
And if she want to keep the story light and friendly, I don't think she will give us wars of religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion)
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It's certainly both too early and definitely off-topic, but I'm curious to see what Minna has prepared about the religion issue. Because (slightly back to topic) Emil is a christian name.
Not to get too pedantic, but the name "Emil" actually has its roots in pre-Christian Rome. It derives from the gens Aemilia, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aemilia_(gens)) one of the oldest and proudest families of ancient Rome. (Who knows whether Minna was thinking of this or trouble-making Emil i Lönneberga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_i_L%C3%B6nneberga)when naming her character...?)
With that said, FrogEater brings up a very interesting question about the religious landscape 90-plus years after the Great Disaster (and the appearance/revival of magic) pretty much wrecked everyone's prior assumptions about how the world works. That line of speculation has its own places.
Religion gets discussed here (http://ssssforum.pcriot.com/index.php?topic=46.0) (if you'll kindly overlook my posts about the Simpsons, the names of the fallen of Kastrup, etc.). Fenris in particular makes some valuable points, since he actually practices a modern form of Norse paganism.
Also in this thread: "Change of Culture and Religion in Year 90." (http://ssssforum.pcriot.com/index.php?topic=78.msg2153#msg2153)
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Thank you for the two links :) I certainly did not want this thread to drift away from its initial purpose.
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Wait- I thought I started this topic! Can someone explain to me why I'm no longer listed as the creator?????? :-[
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Wait- I thought I started this topic! Can someone explain to me why I'm no longer listed as the creator?????? :-[
(Embarrassed Torbjörn face.)*
I think that was my doing. I asked Noako as admin to move a sequence of posts re: name etymologies from the "Translations and Readings" thread in the SSSS board to this one. I didn't realize they'd automatically float up to the "top" of this thread -- much less dethrone you as creator of the topic!
I'm sorry about the accidental "dethroning." Shall I ask Noako to rearrange the post order, or whatever other trick she has for returning credit to you? (Also, I note that replies 1-5, and several later ones, are no longer relevant, since they were debating where the name-etymology should go...)
* I have to make that face so often, I should probably have it stored on a save/get key...
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(Embarrassed Torbjörn face.)*
I think that was my doing. I asked Noako as admin to move a sequence of posts re: name etymologies from the "Translations and Readings" thread in the SSSS board to this one. I didn't realize they'd automatically float up to the "top" of this thread -- much less dethrone you as creator of the topic!
I'm sorry about the accidental "dethroning." Shall I ask Noako to rearrange the post order, or whatever other trick she has for returning credit to you? (Also, I note that replies 1-5, and several later ones, are no longer relevant, since they were debating where the name-etymology should go...)
* I have to make that face so often, I should probably have it stored on a save/get key...
Yes please! Thank you very much!
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Wait- I thought I started this topic! Can someone explain to me why I'm no longer listed as the creator?????? :-[
This is because of the merge and I am very sorry but I'm not sure it can be fixed.
Merging the topics puts them in time order - you had started the topic a few days ago (november 22), while the post that was going to get merged to this one was posted at least a week before it.(november 12)
I can't seem to move separate posts within threads. I'm sorry. I can modify the first post to quote your first post here?
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This is because of the merge and I am very sorry but I'm not sure it can be fixed.
Merging the topics puts them in time order - you had started the topic a few days ago (november 22), while the post that was going to get merged to this one was posted at least a week before it.(november 12)
I can't seem to move separate posts within threads. I'm sorry. I can modify the first post to quote your first post here?
Revontulet, I'm sorry too -- since it was my request that ended up demoting you as thread creator.
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Yes please! Thank you very much!
I know you started this amazing topic :D As long as there are no achievements for starting a topic, it is not too bad for you, I hope. Without you starting it I would haver never dug deeper into nordic names :)
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Thanks! However, it would've been nice to know beforehand. Guess I'll keep that in mind next time I want to start a topic :-X
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As Swedish, Danish, Norwegian and Finnish use several letters with umlauts, it is important to remember to use them in the correct way. Much hilarity or embarrassment might ensue if missed or used wrong. Some examples of Swedish words, where the meaning of the words is drastically changed due to the umlaut or absence thereof:
Låt - Lat (Tune - Lazy)
Låda - Lada (Box - Barn)
Kål - Kal (Cabbage - Bare)
Döv - Dov (Deaf - Muted)
Lök - Lok (Onion - Engine [for pulling trains])
Höra - Hora (Hear - Whore)
Säll - Såll (Blissful - Sieve; "Sall" isn't a word in Swedish)
Säl - Sal (Seal [animal] - Hall [big room])
Täcka - Tacka (Cover up - Expressing thanks [also ewe])
...you get the idea. In the 1980's, there was a British heavy metal band which called itself "Trojan". They wanted to be cool like Mötley Crüe and Blue Öyster Cult, and put an umlaut over the "o", turning their name into "Tröjan". They didn't really catch on in Sweden, as the name translated to "the sweater"...
Also, over a century ago, most of the safety matches were made in Sweden (more exactly in the town where I was born). Pirated copies of the matches sprung up, though, and the Swedish instructions on the box:
(http://www.shenet.se/zbilder/ravaror/svavel.tandaendast.JPG)
"Tända endast mot lådans plån" ("[Do] only light [strike] against the striking surface of the box") was also copied, but without the umlauts, turning it into "Serrate against the plain of the barn"...
I'm sure our Scandinavian friends here can supply you with examples in the other languages.
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For what it's worth, whether one of the three diacritics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diacritic) of Swedish is actually an umlaut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaeresis_%28diacritic%29#Umlaut) is apparently a quite controversial question. 8) The Å (A-ring) definitely isn't, as it's not even a diaeresis.
(In high quality typography, the prototypical German umlauts differ from the diareses of other languages by having the dots positioned a smidge lower above the base letter ...)
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I love that Wikipedia has a whole article, very serious and carefully footnoted, on the topic of heavy metal umlauts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_umlaut
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Somewhat-relatedly, myself and anyone else who can read cyrillic finds this particular kind of typography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faux_Cyrillic) confusing and annoying
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Somewhat-relatedly, myself and anyone else who can read cyrillic finds this particular kind of typography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faux_Cyrillic) confusing and annoying
Actually there's no need for a script to be a fake, or entirely irrelevant, to be confusing and annoying (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%BCtterlin) to virtually everyone not of retirement age yet. :-\
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For what it's worth, whether one of the three diacritics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diacritic) of Swedish is actually an umlaut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaeresis_%28diacritic%29#Umlaut) is apparently a quite controversial question. 8) The Å (A-ring) definitely isn't, as it's not even a diaeresis.
(In high quality typography, the prototypical German umlauts differ from the diareses of other languages by having the dots positioned a smidge lower above the base letter ...)
Whåtever ;)
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Of course, the proper use of cedillas is the best way to avoid making a hacek job of it…
*Ducks flying fruit*
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Some southern fun :
un rôt - un rot (a roast - a burp)
un pêcheur - un pécheur (a fisherman - a sinner)
une tache - une tâche (a stain - a task)
un mat - un mât (a (check)mate - a mast)
:-)
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Spanish has tildes (the little squiggle over an N, making the sound "ny" like the singer Enya). The tilde was originally an abbreviation for an internal double N, inherited from Latin.
Año = year (as in "Año Nuevo State Park" (http://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=1111) near my home, a beach named by Spanish mariners on New Year's Day)
Ano = anus
Anillo = ring (a diminutive of the Latin word "anus," which could refer to several different round things)
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In Finnish vowel harmony limits the effect somewhat, but there are still a bunch of situations where the omission of diaereses will change the meaning. Off the top of my head:
Tähti : Tahti (Star : Rhythm, pace)
Säde : Sade (Ray : Rain)
Öisin : Oisin (During nights : (colloquial) I would be)
Älä : Ala (Don't : Start, area)
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I just tried to think of some examples in German ...
... "Bär" (bear) / "Bar" (bar) ...
... and then I thought of the biblical Mose(s) ... brain bleach, quick! :o
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*hands over brain bleach* Help yourself. :-X
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More Finnish:
lähti : lahti ([she/he] went : bay)
käsi : kasi (hand : (colloquial) eight)
näin : nain (like this/I saw : I married/(colloquial) I had sex)
jämä : jama (leftover : (colloquial) situation)
kääriä : kaaria (To roll up : arches)
rähinä : rahina (a brawl : a rasping sound)
näkki : nakki (a water spirit : a wiener)
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More Finnish:
lähti : lahti ([she/he] went : bay)
käsi : kasi (hand : (colloquial) eight)
näin : nain (like this/I saw : I married/(colloquial) I had sex)
jämä : jama (leftover : (colloquial) situation)
kääriä : kaaria (To roll up : arches)
rähinä : rahina (a brawl : a rasping sound)
näkki : nakki (a water spirit : a wiener)
Woooow yeah some of those are pretty important distinctions!
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Real world example: This week, the radio informed me that the city of Berlin plans to rename one of its streets, the Mohrenstraße, on account of it being considered a racist slur nowadays. First suggestion was to make it into the Nelson-Mandela-Straße, but that hit a snag because they have a rule to name streets only after female people until gender equality has been achieved (and Winnie isn't as much of a role model as Nelson).
Anyway, one of the new suggestions aims at reducing the costs (having letterhead paper, business cards etc. reprinted) for the residents by making it into the Möhrenstraße (Carrot Street).
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Wunderschön ! :)
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I love that Wikipedia has a whole article, very serious and carefully footnoted, on the topic of heavy metal umlauts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_umlaut
Well, it's a popular concept (http://sluggy.com/comics/archives/daily/150111) ... ;)
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I've been wondering about the different sounds and words we use for cats. Its nation has its own! :-)
For example, in Greek, a cat typically says "niau", and you can call it by making a "ps ps ps ps ps" sound :D
How do you call cats in your language? <3
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Did you consult the onomatopoeia thread (http://ssssforum.pcriot.com/index.php?topic=152.0)?
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Did you consult the onomatopoeia thread (http://ssssforum.pcriot.com/index.php?topic=152.0)?
Woops no, I didn't know that existed...
Thanks!
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Swedish:
- Cats go "mjau"
- Dogs go "vov"
- Frogs go "kvack"
- Crows go "krax"
- Birds go "pip"
- You say "aj" when you hurt yourself
- Sneeze: "atjo" (and you say "prosit!")
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OK, sorry, but I really, really have to ask:
What does the fox say?
*shame*
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OK, sorry, but I really, really have to ask:
What does the fox say?
*shame*
Shame indeed. Since I have a thing for foxes, I'll post this in case people actually do want to know.
WHAT SOUND DOES A FOX REALLY MAKE? (http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-09/what-sound-does-fox-make)
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Shame indeed. Since I have a thing for foxes, I'll post this in case people actually do want to know.
WHAT SOUND DOES A FOX REALLY MAKE? (http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-09/what-sound-does-fox-make)
Thank you, that was very interesting! :D
(they make the most horrible noises D: If I was alone in the woods and heard one of those screams only once, I'd think that someone is getting murdered!
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I have a friend that used to get really annoyed when the song came on. "They ducking bark!" XD
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"They f***ing bark!" XD
....... now that I've just had another glance at all the scripts that Unicode supports, I can't help thinking "a language that needs two cooperating individuals to speak in!? Now that's a novel concept for some sci-fi!"
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OK, sorry, but I really, really have to ask:
What does the fox say?
*shame*
The annoying answer. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jofNR_WkoCE)
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Since Swedish already seems to be covered I thought I might share some Japanese onomatopoeia!
Neko (cats) = Nyan Nyan/ Nya Nya
Inu (dogs) = Wan Wan
Tori (birds) = Pichu Pichu
Karasu (crows) = Kaa Kaa
Gyuu (cow) = Moo Moo
Hitsuji (sheep) = Mee Mee
Buta (pig) = Buu Buu
Kaeru (frog) = Gero Gero / Kero Kero
Ouch= Ita!
Pouring Rain = Zaa Zaa
Yawn = Fuwaa
Then there's a whole bunch of strange ones like:
Smile = Niko Niko
Irritated = Ira Ira
To shine/sparkle = Pika Pika
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Kaeru (frog) = Gero Gero
I will definetely tell this my former Karate trainer next time I see him - his name is Gero. ;D
To shine/sparkle = Pika Pika
Important vocabulary if someone wants to translate SSSS to Japanese... ;)
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Then there's a whole bunch of strange ones like:
Smile = Niko Niko
Irritated = Ira Ira
To shine/sparkle = Pika Pika
This reminds me of the Norwegian translation of One Piece where they struggled with an onomatopoeia meants to signal "a heavy/aggressive mood". There's no such effect in Norwegian so they just replaced it with "grrrrrrrrrrr".
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Since Swedish already seems to be covered I thought I might share some Japanese onomatopoeia!
Neko (cats) = Nyan Nyan/ Nya Nya
Inu (dogs) = Wan Wan
Tori (birds) = Pichu Pichu
Karasu (crows) = Kaa Kaa
Gyuu (cow) = Moo Moo
Hitsuji (sheep) = Mee Mee
Buta (pig) = Buu Buu
Kaeru (frog) = Gero Gero / Kero Kero
Ouch= Ita!
Pouring Rain = Zaa Zaa
Yawn = Fuwaa
Then there's a whole bunch of strange ones like:
Smile = Niko Niko
Irritated = Ira Ira
To shine/sparkle = Pika Pika
Aaah, Japanese onomatopeias! >:( *has flashbacks of her Memrise onomatopeias. Bad flashbacks.*
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Important vocabulary if someone wants to translate SSSS to Japanese... ;)
I included it for Emil's sake ;)
This reminds me of the Norwegian translation of One Piece where they struggled with an onomatopoeia meants to signal "a heavy/aggressive mood". There's no such effect in Norwegian so they just replaced it with "grrrrrrrrrrr".
Hahaha XD If I remember correctly the manga I have in Swedish just ignored all sound effects. I thought they looked cool in katakana and didn't really mind.
Aaah, Japanese onomatopeias! >:( *has flashbacks of her Memrise onomatopeias. Bad flashbacks.*
I fortunately haven't had to go through that ^^ There's so many for describing things that doesn't really exist in Swedish or English. Apparently I missed a class where our teacher tried to explain "fuwa fuwa" which means that something is soft and fluffy and she just kept on using other onomatopoeia for soft/fluffy things to describe it and no one understood anything xD
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I fortunately haven't had to go through that ^^ There's so many for describing things that doesn't really exist in Swedish or English. Apparently I missed a class where our teacher tried to explain "fuwa fuwa" which means that something is soft and fluffy and she just kept on using other onomatopoeia for soft/fluffy things to describe it and no one understood anything xD
Well, I found an awesome mem depicting a SOFT, FLUFFY cat saying "HU WAnts a hug?". That saved me there.
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Well, I found an awesome mem depicting a SOFT, FLUFFY cat saying "HU WAnts a hug?". That saved me there.
Proof that cute cat pictures can help with anything! ^w^
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One of the basic umlaut confusions that beginners of Swedish come across is this one:
Swedish: man (English: man) vs. män (English: men)
With the umlaut, the world becomes a plural. While this might be confusing to some, there is a correlation in English: Man, singular, vs men, plural. The pronounciations, also, are almost similar to Swedish. But that one threw me for a loop first time I saw it!
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One of the basic umlaut confusions that beginners of Swedish come across is this one:
Swedish: man (English: man) vs. män (English: men)
With the umlaut, the world becomes a plural. While this might be confusing to some, there is a correlation in English: Man, singular, vs men, plural. The pronounciations, also, are almost similar to Swedish. But that one threw me for a loop first time I saw it!
The one that I find myself tripping over a lot is
månen (the moon) vs mannen (the man)
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The one that I find myself tripping over a lot is
månen (the moon) vs mannen (the man)
Just remember that "å" is pronounced like "au" in "pause" and "Audrey". Also, the "å" in "månen" is a long vowel (due to the following single "n"), while the "a" in "mannen" is a short vowel due to the double "n". With short and long vowels, Swedish has in effect more vowel sounds than the basic a, e, i, o, u, y, å, ä, ö.
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Hebrew, with 8 being the letter sound you cant make.
Cat/8atool does Meow
Dog/Kelev does hav/hao
Crow/Orev does Krah
A8/ow/ahia/aii/arabic for certein anatomy pieces in a mother when you hit a table with the little toe
Sneezing is Apchee
And memory fails me :P
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The accent marks in Icelandic are also pretty important because the vowel underneath gets an entirely different pronunciation. Granted, some make a pronunciation difference that's almost nonexistent to a language learner, such as between i - í. The latter one's sharper, the first one without the accent is pronounced a bit more... round I guess? It'll matter a great deal because if you say the wrong one you may end up using a wrong word altogether, such as:
"Ég ætla að kaupa lím" vs. "Ég ætla að kaupa lim".
First one translates loosely as "I'd like to buy some glue". The second one is "I'd like to buy some penis". Be certain that Icelanders can both pronounce and hear the difference, so they'll know right away which one you just said. Good luck! :D
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"Ég ætla að kaupa lím" vs. "Ég ætla að kaupa lim".
First one translates loosely as "I'd like to buy some glue". The second one is "I'd like to buy some penis". Be certain that Icelanders can both pronounce and hear the difference, so they'll know right away which one you just said. Good luck! :D
Otherwise, I guess the Icelanders will tell you where to stick it.
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In high school I learned (whether correctly or not, I can't say) that in French, both fish and turkeys say "glu glu". I always found it hilarious that they speak the same language.
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:D :D
Fish, even the French ones, don't speak !
But "glou glou" is indeed the sound of
- turkeys
- anything flowing : water down the river, whisky down the bottle, etc.
(a fish swimming in whisky remains to be studied)
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:D :D
Fish, even the French ones, don't speak !
But "glou glou" is indeed the sound of
- turkeys
- anything flowing : water down the river, whisky down the bottle, etc.
(a fish swimming in whisky remains to be studied)
I'm sure the Danes have come up with some sort of fish-and-akvavit combination, like the worm in some bottles of Mexican mezcal. Down the hatch, little herring! <glug glug>
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Not so sure how much this relates to this thread, but I have sometimes a habit to use a Swedish "å" to replace a Finnish "o" when joking about our dear rivals Swedes in written Finnish. And I kinda have a feeling that I'm not the only Finn who does that (I once saw a Finnish-translated Astérix picture in which a viking's lines were written that way). "å" is actually called "the Swedish o" in Finnish alphabet due to its pronunciation.
Example:
English: "Good day, I'd like to buy apples."
Real Finnish: "Päivää, haluaisin ostaa omenoita."
Joking Swedish-Finnish: "Päivää, haluaisin åstaa åmenåita."
Some time ago I also tried to mix that into English, but I don't do it nowadays since this joke works in Finnish which is more like "pronounced like written", but not in English which is more like "writing and pronunciation barely correlate".
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About the Å: Long ago when I saw the first ad for the Stargate series I seriously thought it was some Swedish scifi production since the name was written STARGÅTE. I still pronounce the name with the "Swedish o" since it's more hilarious that way.
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About the Å: Long ago when I saw the first ad for the Stargate series I seriously thought it was some Swedish scifi production since the name was written STARGÅTE. I still pronounce the name with the "Swedish o" since it' more hilarious that way.
STARGOAT.
(alternatively, in norwegian, it could be star riddle. but that's less fun.)
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About the Å: Long ago when I saw the first ad for the Stargate series I seriously thought it was some Swedish scifi production since the name was written STARGÅTE. I still pronounce the name with the "Swedish o" since it's more hilarious that way.
That's great, I can't believe I never realized that!
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I seriously thought it was some Swedish scifi production since the name was written STARGÅTE. I still pronounce the name with the "Swedish o" since it's more hilarious that way.
Now if it were to suddenly change to "STÅRGATE" when you go to their online shop to buy some merch ... ;D
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I am automatically drawn to cat threads... In Bulgarian we use "pisi pisi pisi" to call said feline and the sound for cats is '???' which is miau-
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I am automatically drawn to cat threads... In Bulgarian we use "pisi pisi pisi" to call said feline and the sound for cats is '???' which is miau-
"Pisi pisi pisi" sounds like what Finns say to kids to make them pee. Then again Finns call cats by saying "kis kis kis". :D
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"Pisi pisi pisi" sounds like what Finns say to kids to make them pee. Then again Finns call cats by saying "kis kis kis". :D
Oh god are finnish kisses that bad that they make children pee? (I am just joking of course) Was it in finnish where you have Hey as hello and Hey Hey as bye?
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Oh god are finnish kisses that bad that they make children pee? (I am just joking of course) Was it in finnish where you have Hey as hello and Hey Hey as bye?
Actually, yes! I never thought of it but that's true, "Hei!" is a greeting and "Hei hei!" is a bye. :D
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Actually, yes! I never thought of it but that's true, "Hei!" is a greeting and "Hei hei!" is a bye. :D
Languages are such awesome thing. So if I try to say an excited Hello in Finnish, I just might end up saying bye to the person. Reminds me of another thing. In Greece Ohi means No and Ne means Yes, but in Bulgarian Ne means No, I have had interesting moments with that when I have been in Greece.
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In Quebec we call cats by saying "minou minou minou", which basically means "kitty kitty kitty".
The sound cat makes is just "miao".
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In Quebec we call cats by saying "minou minou minou", which basically means "kitty kitty kitty".
The sound cat makes is just "miao".
Cats tend to miao all around the world :) At least animals don't have such thing as language barriers
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Well, except Finnish cats.
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss44/VafhudrGrimm/nau_zpsgqfx0vkb.png)
Absolute gibberish.
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Finnish cats are bilingual, they say both "nau" and "miau".
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And also "miu", "mau" and "mou" for some reason. I knew one that said "räyh" but that was just because she was so very, very old.
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So in conclusion Finnish Cats are the superior Cats? Seems about right :D
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And also "miu", "mau" and "mou" for some reason. I knew one that said "räyh" but that was just because she was so very, very old.
This made me remember a nursery rhyme book I used to read for my kids when they were babies. One rhyme was about four old cats named Miu, Mau, Mou and Miumaumou =)
Some cats also say niu.
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In Japanese, cats say "nyan" or "nyaa."
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We have just the one "meow" in the States, with purring described as "purr purr purr". A small or cute meow might be a "mew". I've also seen "mrow!"
To call my cat, I actually whistle loudly. He comes running, just like a dog!
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In Norway cats say "mjau" (but you might have known that already, since it's already been shown in the webcomic.)
And I believe people use different phraces to call for their cats, I use "pus-pus-pus" or "pusi-pusi-pusi" which basically means "kitty-kitty-kitty".
My cousin use something like "prrjuus-prrjuus-prrjuus" or probably something like "prews-prews-prews" if I were to use english'er, which also could mean "kitty-kitty-kitty".
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I am the neighbhorhood/school cat, so I have a vocabulary of my own. It mostly consists of mrows, nmeuws and hggt!s. mrow:just kinda hey whassup I see you, nmeuw: hey! over here! and hggt!: hisssss! for the hggt, I would use hiss, but only snake hisses sound like hiss. and I couldnt find any better combinations of letters for it. I can purr! I honestly have NO idea how the hay I do it.
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This is something everyone can participate in, whether they speak English as a native speaker or as a nonnative speaker. It's a language test that was set up by some students at MIT and it tries to guess what dialect of English you speak and what your native language is. There are no right or wrong answers. It learns how dialects work from having more people take it and from their responses, so some languages/dialects (especially less common ones) are not as well recognized by it, but will become so if more people take it. I am going to put the link here:
http://www.gameswithwords.org/WhichEnglish/
And you guys should all go take it. Then post a picture with your results and tell us how close it was to guessing your native language/dialect of English.
Here are my results:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Orzcim5AzI6bP8Nr0EXDrQ3hzV2vqw2OIPGKZ7VvWok=w960-h413-no)
For me I would say it is spot on. I am from Canada and I spent most of my childhood there. I also spent some time in the US which makes sense for why it is there for my second and third options. And for native language, I am a native English speaker, so that is correct, the Dutch is probably because it's similar to English, and the Norwegian might be because of knowing Icelandic because it's the closest thing to Icelandic besides Faroese (my friend who is a native Icelandic speaker and learned English later took it and it told her she was a native Norwegian speaker because there haven't been enough Icelanders taking it for it to know the difference yet). So overall, it pretty much nailed it for me. What about everyone else?
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(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-F7BCIrWF990/VYIqhuAVD0I/AAAAAAAAAHQ/iWX6Lo2No2I/w426-h237/Screen%2BShot%2B2015-06-17%2Bat%2B10.16.59%2BPM.png)
This is exactly right for me (which I don't think is too surprising: I'll bet a lot of Americans have taken this quiz). And the Canadian and Black Vernacular are probably the dialects other than my own that I hear most often, so that makes sense. I don't know exactly why it has Norwegian and Swedish as possible native languages since I know absolutely nothing about either language, but any insight would be much appreciated :)
This was fun! I like these sorts of quizzes.
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(http://i.imgur.com/jkL1e0L.png)
They got the Canadian right, but their guess for my native language is way off XD But maybe that's because I've really fallen out of practice with my Russian and have lived in Canada for like 14 years now...
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(http://s7.postimg.org/97acn1mdn/image.jpg)
I took this thing last year. The results are almost identical and are far from being true :-X
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Results:
Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. South African
2. English (England)
3. Welsh (UK)
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:
1. English
2. Finnish
3. German
How does south african english sound?
Thx for the test!
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(http://i.imgur.com/lEoYrFC.png)
I have a feeling most native U.S. English speakers get this as their answer set (except for African-Americans, maybe). Dutch and Norwegian as possible 2nd languages is probably the program's default answer when actually no other languages match the speaker's responses, since they're both in the Germanic language family with English.
I think the algorithm is way too general in only having two dialects for the U.S., when there are very strong regional differences. Still, it's a fun quiz, and the full results should be interesting.
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Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. New Zealandish
2. Welsh (UK)
3. Australian
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:
1. English
2. Swedish
3. Chinese
Actually, this is pretty accurate! Except for the Welsh and Swedish, ahahaha.
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Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. Scottish (UK)
2. English (England)
3. New Zealandish
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:
1. English
2. Hungarian
3. Polish
Hm, nope.
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Our top three guesses for your English dialect:?
1. Singaporean
2. US Black Vernacular / Ebonics
3. Australian
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:?
1. Italian
2. Spanish
3. Russian
Almost, but not quite there. (I speak the English as a native language from New Zealand, with a bit of Filipino English. I know no Italian, Spanish or Russian.
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"Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. New Zealandish
2. Singaporean
3. Australian
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:
1. English
2. Chinese
3. Romanian"
Erm... nope. I've never been to any of the English speaking countries listed as my dialect and believe I've learned more or less British standard.
However, my English can't be that bad since the algorithm thinks it's my native language... ;)
I don't know anything about neither Chinese nor Romanian, and I'm amused my native German doesn't even show up. I guess not many Germans have taken the quiz yet so the algorithm still needs to learn. ;D
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Our top three guesses for your English dialect:?
1. Welsh (UK)
2. English (England)
3. Australian
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:?
1. English
2. Norwegian
3. Chinese
Hmmmmm, not too bad language thingy, you're doing better than quite a few real life people if truth be told. Apparently my style of Welsh dialect is easily recognisable. Sorry Android but apparently you Hwntws are speaking Scottish English - always knew that Gog-speak was the proper way to go :P
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Heh, this was fun.
Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. US Black Vernacular / Ebonics
2. Singaporean
3. American (Standard)
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:
1. German
2. Finnish
3. Spanish
Almost. I have no clue where the dialect comes from, in Germany they teach british english. But the native language is correct and hurrah for finnish as second guess! ;D
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(http://i.snag.gy/PuQDD.jpg)
Way, way off. :D
I suspect it's because not many Hungarians took it yet and also because I'm close to native with my English by now, so it cannot really find those quirks that help it recognize that English isn't your mother tongue. Also, despite I have only lived in Hungary so far in my life, I hear, see and use English so much because of the internet that it could almost count as living in an English-speaking country nevertheless.
Speaking of these tests, have you stumbled upon this one (http://this one)? After some checkbox-clicking, it gives you an approximation of how many English words you know.
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Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. Singaporean
2. US Black Vernacular / Ebonics
3. English (England)
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:
1. Russia
2. Polish
3. Greek
NOT EVEN CLOSE. I was taught british english in school
I tried again because I was like yeah, even I would answer again, but still.
Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. Singaporean
2. US Black Vernacular / Ebonics
3. Australian
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:
1. Finnish
2. Polish
3. Russian
it is getting worse xD it will never guess I am hungarian.....
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Huh, that's really cool actually who's getting accurate answers and who isn't. And just think: everyone who takes the test is helping the algorithm, because clearly they need more non-American data points. ;)
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Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. English (England)
2. New Zealandish
3. Australian
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:
1. English
2. Finnish
3. German
What the heck?
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"Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. New Zealandish
2. Singaporean
3. Australian
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:
1. English
2. Chinese
3. Romanian"
Erm... nope. I've never been to any of the English speaking countries listed as my dialect and believe I've learned more or less British standard.
However, my English can't be that bad since the algorithm thinks it's my native language... ;)
I don't know anything about neither Chinese nor Romanian, and I'm amused my native German doesn't even show up. I guess not many Germans have taken the quiz yet so the algorithm still needs to learn. ;D
Haha, since my boyfriend has studied the same topic at uni as you, I wonder if there is a connection. Singapourian was first place with him and then came some other weird stuff. And as native languages was Vietnamese under the suggestions XD traces of german? Nope.
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This was fun!
Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. American (Standard)
2. Singaporean
3. Canadian
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:
1. English
2. Romanian
3. Norwegian - See more at: http://www.gameswithwords.org/WhichEnglish/#sthash.xpG1cTQ5.dpuf
the primary of both are correct, I'm not sure where the others came from. Maybe the Singaporean thing is from my cousins who have a Singaporean dad? No clue where Romanian and Norwegian are from. The only language that I know (aside from English) even tolerably well is Spanish, so... *shrugs*
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(http://i.imgur.com/7aSaYs9.png)
It guesses at Swedish but not Norwegian? And apparently, my English is like what they speak in the land down under.
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in Germany they teach british english.
Eeeeeeehhh, they'ld like to. The only English teacher at my (rather large) Gymnasium who was said to have a good understanding of BrE vs. AmE hailed from Malta. I never got taught by him, and whenever we had an English classwork and the teacher dictated the standardized info for us to write on the cover page, it included a U.S.-formatted date (Mmm DDth, YYYY).
"US Black Vernacular / Ebonics; South African; Singaporean - Swedish; English; Dutch"
I have been told repeatedly that my accent in English is hard to identify, but I'ld call that ridiculous if "Dutch" didn't happen to be the next nation over, at least. :(
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Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. Singaporean
2. US Black Vernacular / Ebonics
3. Australian
...Okay...
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:
1. Italian
2. Romanian
3. Vietnamese
Close enough, honey, it IS the language I speak daily.
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Guesses for English dialect: Singaporean, Ebonics, American Standard - good enough, my English is probably closest to American Standard, since it's mostly picked up from American media. Singaporean apparently shows up because it's nearly indistinguishable from American Standard (or so the test claims). I know why Ebonics shows up, there was one answer I checked as correct that was clearly Ebonics, but I actually have a hard time understanding it, especially spoken.
Guesses for native language: Swedish, Norwegian, English - not even close :) I've been studying Swedish on duolingo for the last 3 weeks or so, nice coincidence there. I'll take that "English" as a compliment.
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Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. Singaporean
2. US Black Vernacular / Ebonics
3. Australian
Since the site claims that Singaporean English is very similar to American Standard, I'll give it that. (According to the all-knowing Wikipedia, one version of Singaporean English is essentially Standard British, which I guess is close enough to Standard American. Either that or my English is closer to Standard British.) When I actually realised that you could check more than one answer, I answered with sentences that would sound "okay" if spoken, and I'm pretty sure a few were Ebonics. I have no idea where Australian came from.
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:
1. Swedish
2. Norwegian
3. English
...uh. It's nice to know that my interest in Scandinavia has (apparently) bled over into my language patterns, but I don't think I've been studying Norwegian nearly long enough for that. At least English made it into third place.
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My language results:
http://screencast.com/t/eVFkZtx5
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Dialect guesses:
1. American (Standard)
2. Welsh (UK)
3. US Black Vernacular / Ebonics
.............okay
Native language guesses:
1. Norwegian
2. English
3. Swedish
eyyy
can't really argue with that, can I. I didn't expect czech to show up, either, because I keep applying norwegian grammar to my czech language and messing up anyway.
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Eeeeeeehhh, they'ld like to. The only English teacher at my (rather large) Gymnasium who was said to have a good understanding of BrE vs. AmE hailed from Malta. I never got taught by him, and whenever we had an English classwork and the teacher dictated the standardized info for us to write on the cover page, it included a U.S.-formatted date (Mmm DDth, YYYY).
Well IF my dialect really sounds south african my poor kids in primary school are learning exactly that XD. I had one teacher that had returned from oxford before she started teaching us. never helped against me pronouncing badly and replacing all the unknown words with german substitutes.
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.............okay
eyyy
can't really argue with that, can I. I didn't expect czech to show up, either, because I keep applying norwegian grammar to my czech language and messing up anyway.
Even the Norwegians are more Welsh than me, apparently. .-.
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(http://i.imgur.com/ZjtKQEv.png)
...wat.
I don't know how close any of the latter three are to my first language, but I have a feeling that nowhere near.
Interesting thing, though. I just have to show it to my friend. Thanks for sharing!
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Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. American (Standard)
2. Singaporean
3. US Black Vernacular / Ebonics
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:
1. English
2. Swedish
3. Norwegian
Not too bad.
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.............okay
eyyy
can't really argue with that, can I. I didn't expect czech to show up, either, because I keep applying norwegian grammar to my czech language and messing up anyway.
Honestly if you were here I wouldn't guess you're not American. I would however ask where you're from, cause you kinda sound like someone from Cincinnati (or it's area of influence. . .)
As for me
Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. American (Standard)
2. Canadian
3. US Black Vernacular / Ebonics
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:
1. English
2. Norwegian
3. Dutch
American standard, well duh! I've got the Midland accent, pretty generic there. And yes English is my native language.
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Our top three guesses for your English dialect:?
1. Canadian
2. American (Standard)
3. Singaporean
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:?
1. English
2. Greek
3. Chinese
Well they got the dialect right.
But they missed the mark for the native language, though. I studied ancient Greek but I don't think that counts.
I mean, I learned English well - I don't know how my French would seep in and signal that it is my first language. You can hear it, but it doesn't register on the syntactical or grammatical level.
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Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. South African
2. US Black Vernacular / Ebonics
3. American (Standard)
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:
1. English
2. Norwegian
3. Dutch
My dialect is listed, but only as the third option. Not bad. It's a shame the dialects aren't more specific.
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Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. US Black Vernacular / Ebonics
2. New Zealandish
3. Singaporean
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:
1. Hungarian
2. Russian
3. English
:o Yes, I do speak Hunglish...
But as for the dialects, I don't believe you can really associate a dialect with people who speak English as a second language and have never lived in an English speaking environment.
The ‘dialect’- at least in my case - is the result of language courses in the past, films, books, internet, frequent interaction with non-native English speakers and a lot of mistakes.
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Eeeeeeehhh, they'ld like to. The only English teacher at my (rather large) Gymnasium who was said to have a good understanding of BrE vs. AmE hailed from Malta. I never got taught by him, and whenever we had an English classwork and the teacher dictated the standardized info for us to write on the cover page, it included a U.S.-formatted date (Mmm DDth, YYYY).
Okay, let me clarify that. As far as I remember my english teachers all studied somewhere in England and I was twice in England while still learning so it should have had some effect on my dialect. However I read a LOT of books from all over the world since then and this was maybe the bigger influence. (Not going into the sad fact that I have had almost no opportunity actually speaking english the last years... :-[ )
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Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. Singaporean
2. US Black Vernacular / Ebonics
3. American (Standard)
Hmm, maybe Singaporean English has enough influence by Chinese language that my dialect/accent is associated with it? The dialect I've learned is definite primarily General American, though I'm not aware that I have any significant Black Vernacular influence.
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:
1. Vietnamese
2. Norwegian
3. Swedish
Same for the Vietnamese part; maybe it's hard for them to distinguish between Vietnamese influence and Chinese influence? (I didn't know that I spoke English like a Nordic! ^^)
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Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. New Zealandish
2. Scottish (UK)
3. English (England)
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:
1. English
2. Hungarian
3. Greek
I've done this before and I still have no idea where it got Hungarian/Greek from. I'm English, so I guess it got that sort-of right.
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Results:
Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. American (Standard)
2. Australian
3. Singaporean
Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. English
2. Norwegian
3. Chinese
Well, the #1 results are accurate, but I don't know where it got the #2 and #3 results. *shrug*
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I see this is your first post -- welcome!
Can we persuade you to go introduce yourself in the Introduction Thread? (https://ssssforum.com/index.php?topic=131.0) You'll see that newcomers generally say a little about themselves, where they're from, what they're interested in, maybe how they came across SSSS. It's a great chance to ask questions and find kindred spirits.
If you want to delve deeper, introduce yourself here on the Language Board (https://ssssforum.com/index.php?topic=150.0). This is specifically to talk about the languages (and related topics) you speak, are studying, or want to learn someday.
Results:
Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. American (Standard)
2. Australian
3. Singaporean
Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. English
2. Norwegian
3. Chinese
Well, the #1 results are accurate, but I don't know where it got the #2 and #3 results. *shrug*
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Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:
1. Dutch
2. English
3. Swedish
How? What? None of these?
The English dialect worked pretty well though, it guessed a Singaporean dialect (which is pretty close to Malaysian) and American, which is understandable since a large number of Western films/books (which is mainly how I learnt English) are American.
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I laughed myself sick, what with the pictures at the start and sudden memories of primary school popping up... ;D
English dialect:
1) South African
2) Singaporean
3) US Black Vernacular/Ebonics
No idea how I got those results. I have gone to boarding school in Shropshire, GB for two years. The school was close to the Welsh border and we had some students from Cornwall and other southern counties. Although that is still pretty far from South Africa! Well, I'd say I speak 'Internet English'.
First Language:
1) Romanian
2) English
3) German
I am very sorry, but I don't even know what Romanian sounds like... Hey! Wait! My Classical Chinese teacher is Romanian! :o
I'll take number two as a compliment. They even got my native tongue on there. Last guess, but yay!
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(http://i.gyazo.com/85fd1ecbe7d9560ad52ee877d0ee4a11.png)
...??
Can anyone tell me what the hell does a Singaporean dialect sound like? I don't understand XD I've been taught British English, though usually I lean more towards American English. Oh well :D
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(http://i.imgur.com/JpeAMIy.png)
Well, the first language option is pretty accurate, as English is my first language and I'm learning Swedish... I don't know why Finnish came up there though, as although their countries are close geographically the languages are very different. Weird.
The dialect was a bit wonky; Welsh is close geography-wise but the Welsh dialect is very different from South-Eastern English, which is what I actually speak. As for New Zealandish and Australian - it could make sense seeing that they were English colonies and inherited some of our dialect, but other than that, what?
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Лолшто?
(http://i.imgur.com/twMZHFJ.png)
I guess the mix of Runglish and half-forgotten English Grammar university courses confused the algorithm. I'm definitely not Spanish or African American.
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Result:
Singaporean English
American (Standard) Swedish
Australian Romanian
This is weird
The English dialects list is okay, people tell me my English is very generic, but I don't know what to think about the other list:
1. I'm very flattered that it thinks I'm English.
2. Maybe it's the German?
3. Romanian is very similar to Italian, so...close enough?
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Ebonics? Seriously? I can see Dutch as a guess, though. I've often said that the Dutch speak better English than the English do.
(https://36.media.tumblr.com/0794da8a15ea0bdd146fa566728c8e0d/tumblr_nu5q48adk21t7y48to1_540.jpg)
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(https://scontent-sin1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/11986524_10153945010802334_2971323394128314796_n.jpg?oh=9c9975b9e12c316425b56c4fbafa7229&oe=567CE4D0)
It's slightly off-grid.
1st Dialect more or less correct although I would love to be able to sound british. :-*
Native language... naaah. I speak German which is "Deutsch" but the spelling is pretty close (haha!) and I can somewhat understand Dutch too since it's similar.
But seriously? Vietnamese? ;D Again not that far from where I live. Filipino/Cebuano would've been correct.
Interesting analysis. Shall share with fellow friends.
Thanks for sharing, Viola! ^_^
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Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. American (Standard)
2. Canadian
3. Singaporean
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:
1. English
2. Norwegian
3. Dutch
Ehm, given that I spent 3 years in Wales, and otherwise speak Norwegian, I'm not entirely sure how accurate this is. The first thing is inaccurate, the second sort of is accurate? I suppose I should be flattered if they think my first language is English, though. >_>
Don't get what the Singaporean is about, though.
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We have just the one "meow" in the States, with purring described as "purr purr purr". A small or cute meow might be a "mew". I've also seen "mrow!"
To call my cat, I actually whistle loudly. He comes running, just like a dog!
Meghan, if you don't have a Russian Blue--your "cat" *might* be a dog with a fish fetish! ;D OK, jk. ;)
The cat calling I've seen in the States is often "Kitikitikiti! Here, Kitikitikiti!", in a kind of falsetto, to carry. (It's almost like practicing tonguing notes for the flute. :) ) Alternatively, when exhausted by fruitlessly calling "Kitikitikiti! Here, Kitikitikiti!", one slows down to "Here, Kitty, Here Kitty, Here Kitty!".
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in hungarian, they say miau, but I even heard nyau too, and I have no idea how to write the purring imitation.
purring mean "dorombolás", we kind of joke that imitate the purring by saying "doromb-doromb"
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This made me remember a nursery rhyme book I used to read for my kids when they were babies. One rhyme was about four old cats named Miu, Mau, Mou and Miumaumou =)
Some cats also say niu.
I have no cats myself, but my ex-girlfriend's cats were basically silent other than purring.
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Serbian cats say "mjau" (mutual inteligibility with Norwegian cats?).
We call them with "mac, mac, mac", which probably comes from "maca", i.e. kitty. Interestingly, we shoo them away with "pis". :D
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For what it's worth, an estonian cat goes "mjäu" or "näu". The purring noise is called "nurrumine" and the onomatopeia for it is "nurr nurr nurr". We call them with "kis-kis-kis" or "kiisu kiisu kiisu" (meaning "kitty kitty kitty"). We shoo them with "Kõss!" or "Kõtt!"
(Also, Miisu seems to be the default name for a cat. Most people I know default to Miisu when they either don't know or can't remember the actual name of the cat in question)
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For what it's worth, an estonian cat goes "mjäu" or "näu". The purring noise is called "nurrumine" and the onomatopeia for it is "nurr nurr nurr". We call them with "kis-kis-kis" or "kiisu kiisu kiisu" (meaning "kitty kitty kitty"). We shoo them with "Kõss!" or "Kõtt!"
(Also, Miisu seems to be the default name for a cat. Most people I know default to Miisu when they either don't know or can't remember the actual name of the cat in question)
Interesting. Is there a similar common cat name in Finnish? Would that explain why the prologue Hotakainens' cat is called Misu-Misu?
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In Finnish misu used to be a common word for cat, but it's meaning has wandered a little and nowadays it's mostly used as a synonym for "sexy girl". Misse however is still a word that means unequivocally a cat. It used to be a common name for cats as well, just like Musti and Peni were common names for dogs.
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In Finnish misu used to be a common word for cat, but it's meaning has wandered a little and nowadays it's mostly used as a synonym for "sexy girl". Misse however is still a word that means unequivocally a cat. It used to be a common name for cats as well, just like Musti and Peni were common names for dogs.
In Finnish textbooks when mentioned, cats are often called Mirri. Is it common name for them in Finland?
In Russian there are similar looking Мурка (Murka, for female cats) and Мурзик (Murzik, for males) which are even used as synonym to word "cat".
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In Finnish textbooks when mentioned, cats are often called Mirri. Is it common name for them in Finland?
In Russian there are similar looking Мурка (Murka, for female cats) and Мурзик (Murzik, for males) which are even used as synonym to word "cat".
Mirri used to be a really typical name for a cat but nowadays it has an even worse meaning than Misu... actually it's now entirely synonymous to a certain forum-censored English word that also used to mean a cat but has turned into meaning something else entirely. :D
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Mirri used to be a really typical name for a cat but nowadays it has an even worse meaning than Misu... actually it's now entirely synonymous to a certain forum-censored English word that also used to mean a cat but has turned into meaning something else entirely. :D
Oh, my... Btw, I even met aforementioned English word in some English children book from the begining of 20th century. When did things go wrong?
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I've studied linguistic quite a lot, both on my free time and in university, I have a pretty good intuition of the underworkings of language in general (I have also occasionally tried my hand at conlanging, inventing languages from scratch); so based on this, I had said I would eventually do, on this forum, a series of tutorials explaining the logic of various linguistic or grammatical concepts, in order to make language learning an easier task for those of us who have trouble with foreign grammatical concepts.
However, since this was an enormous task and I am appalingly lazy, I never got around to actually do it.
So I was thinking, the only way this is going to happen is if I actually let people ask specific questions and/or ask me to talk on a specific subject. Whence this thread.
In this thread I will thus takes your questions about cases, gender, syntax, language evolution or any other linguistic/grammatical subject you want to know about and I'll do my best to answer them. Obvious caveat: I am not a professional linguist; while I studied the subject extensively, while I was considered good at it in university, I dropped out after getting (the French equivalent of) a bachelor's degree (I dropped out for personal reasons, my grades were fine). And if others who know about linguistics want to participate to the thread as well, they are welcome to.
So come with your questions and queries.
If this works out, I'll try to index the different answer posts I'll make in this one.
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Heyo !
I am currently creating a language of my own for my sci-fi setting for big space-opera stories. I've called it, for now, the Ikaean.
I actually have vocabulary, alphabet, writing, but simple verbs and no grammar/declinations.
So, how it works :
Let's take a look to a single word : Rin. It has a capital letter to indicate it's a noun. Each letter has its own proper meaning, that influences its actual meaning. But let's stay simple and only speak about overall sense. This word means "knight". The suffixe -in is indication of neutral gender (more like unspecified gender in this case). The suffixe -in is added to nouns either for unspecified gender, either for plural nouns mixing male and female, such as Rin meaning "knights". Are they only male knights ? No, or we don't know about it.
Ri means "male knight", because suffixe -i indicates male gender. Ro means "female knight", because suffixe -o indicates female gender.
An example of other unspecified gender : Klan'k Ikrin, which means "Clan [of the] Firsts", and because a whole clan generally contains both males and females, the genre of the whole clan is unspecified. Speaking of Klan'k Ikri would mean speaking only about males of the clan.
1) Until now, there is no suffixes for plurality. Should I make one, should I use pronouns, or should I leave it to context ? (as I first thought)
2) And is that suffixe system for genders making sense ?
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Heyo !
Why hello, fellow conlangers! I'm no expert on these things, but I'll put in my two cents for what you've written here!
1) Ultimately it's up to you whether or not to include some marker of plurality in your nouns. I personally like the idea of having the articles mark plurality (though I'm not sure if your language has them). But if you do decide to leave it to context, I'd just be careful about how you word your sentences, or you could get a lot of ambiguity. Words denoting number, specifically or generally, will be your friend. (Think of it this way: there's a big difference between "a sheep running down the street" and "a hundred sheep running down the street".)
2). To me, yes, the gender suffixes make perfect sense. Though I'm curious now: are all inanimate objects/things that are not people neutral gender? Or do they have genders assigned to them like in Spanish or Latin?
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Ho, hello conlanger !
1) Ahaha, I see xD I will try to come with either a whole numerotation (one, two, three,...) or words like "a bunch", "some", "a few", "a sole", "unique", etc.
Thank you for your input ! o/
2) Yay ! Hm, good questions. I don't have decided for animals, but robots and AI (they're sentient in my setting) are always neutral !
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Hi Hrollo
Thank you so much for this thread! <3
Hi Adri!
I think much of what the language should look like depends on what kind of influences it has and what concepts were needed to be represented, i.e., what kinds of things you would need to distinguish. Like, you could probably get away with as few concepts of number as "non-zero" (i.e., existence of something, the quantity being unimportant or unknown), "one", "a few/some" and "a lot", and I can see that being a specific enough system (e.g., "I saw three people" could be "I saw a few but not one human", "There are mice in our house" could be "In our house is non-zero mouse"). With that, you would not need either plural markers or any other numerals if you do not find them necessary.
As for the gender question, feel free to choose whichever variant you wish, they can almost all make equal sense, but by some logic, if you do not express gender when it is unimportant and/or unknown, it makes some sense not to enforce it for concepts that does not have any intrinsic gender. Maybe you would say the an animal is of this or that gender in contexts where it s important, like for breeding/mating.
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Adriano >
1) Adding to what Ana Nymus said, number marking in language can be entirely optional, or even completely absent (that is, the nouns never change for number, but of course you can give quantity indication with separate words like "some", "many", "two", etc). Some languages also only mark plural on some sub-category of nouns, but not on all nouns. This map gives a good overview:
http://wals.info/feature/34A#2/25.5/145.7 (you can also click on the "Occurence of Nominal Plurality" grey button to get a detailed description of each possibility).
There are also a lot more ways to mark plural than the use of suffixes:
http://wals.info/feature/33A#3/-1.44/71.67
2) For gender, I think one thing you need to clarify is whether you want lexical gender or grammatical gender (or both!)
Lexical gender is gender that is specifically that of the referent, of the actual thing being refered too by a word; English has lexical gender: we talk about actors, stewards or policemen if we are refering to men, but about actresses, stewardess or policewomen if we are refering to women — this depends of the real thing we are talking about, not directly of the words we use (that is, if the words can indicate gender at all — most English words can't, this is mostly limited to job nouns, and to singular third person personal pronouns: he vs she vs it).
Grammatical gender is a property of words that is completely independent of what is being refered to: in French "victime" is feminine even if the victim is male, and "serpent" (snake) is masculine even if it's a female snake; gender is a fact about the words themself, not a fact about the things the words refer to. Grammatical gender generally implies gender agreement: adjectives, articles, pronouns and/or verbs will have to "match" the gender of the noun they are refering to. Here's an example from italian:
Un lento treno è passato = A slow train has passed.
Una lenta machina è passata = A slow car has passed.
"treno", train, is masculine, "machina", car, is feminine, and you can see that the indefinite article, the adjective, and even the past participle change form to match the gender of the noun.
Most languages that have grammatical gender also have some degree of lexical gender, making things more complex, but there's nonetheless an important difference between the two.
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I'm studying linguistics at university (apparently) - posting to watch.
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Thanks for your answers !
I think I'll go with no plural marking but indicative words like "non-zero", "a few/some", "one", etc.
I use lexical gender in this language. So, word gender related to the stuff. I will surely put no gender marking for concepts with no such use.
More input about the Ikaean :
Verbs know (for now) only three tenses : simple past, simple present and simple future.
They know no declinations due to subject (like english, but unlike it, not even at third person), and are only marked by suffixes.
Simple past is marked by the suffixe -i
Simple present is marked by the suffixe -e
Simple future is marked by the suffixe -o
Example : knedi = drank; knede = drink; knedo : will drink
Infinitive is kned = to drink
Nouns have capital at their beginning, and capital also after a ' if it's a title form. Example : Tan'Ikrin = Great First One. Counterexample : ge'ren = to run toward smthing
Now, I can also speak about this little trivial fact : we know that -i both marks maleness and past. It is because men are linked to the past and they're the past of human race. On the contrary, -o marks the femaleness and the future. It is because women are linked to the future and that they're the future of human race, in this language philosphy.
Question : What do you think of this verb forms ? Do you have any idea for expanding the tenses ? And what do you think of the link between past/male and future/female ?
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Adriano, your conlang sounds very interesting if I may say so.
I don't really have any linguistical questions as of this moment (I do have some trouble making my plurals work with conjugation and compound words, but that's a matter of having chosen letters that don't sound good together rather than anything else), just wanted to say that this thread has already given me ideas on my own language attempt. :D And that it only now sort of hit me that nominal plurality is a thing that actually exists - I was kinda proud to have "come up with it on my own" when expanding my language attempt, which probably speaks volumes of my actual experience relating to this hobby. And lots of thanks to this thread for making me realize that I probably needs a plural for "none". If it makes a difference, then I currently has plurals for "one/a", "two/a pair", "a group", "a lot of" and "all". When I add one for "none" then it should cover all the bases.
In any case I'll be keeping my eye on this thread.
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Adriano > the only things that bugs me is that the least marked verb form (here kned) is usually the present, the past or the imperative, and if there's an infinitive distinct from those, it's that infinitive that takes a suffix — although I'm sure exceptions exist, and this is more a general tendency than an hardcoded universal.
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By analogy with masculine~past and feminine~future, maybe the infinitive could have the -in suffix? :D
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Rollo : Well, I think I see what you mean, but I really doesn't want to change the ending of the verbs. But I get your point.
ryagami : No, I want a different ending ^^ For now, the endings of infinitive are -en and -ed :)
But your idea is interesting, thanks :)
Cliodna : You may, you may ^-^
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Meanwhile, I did a thing: http://thelegion.free.fr/arabic.htm
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I don't know if you all had seen this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages#Diachronic
It's a diagram of the evolution of Germanic languages.
I wanted to do a similar one for Romance languages for a while. So I did, but it went a bit overboard:
http://thelegion.free.fr/italic_languages.htm
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I don't know if you all had seen this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages#Diachronic
It's a diagram of the evolution of Germanic languages.
I wanted to do a similar one for Romance languages for a while. So I did, but it went a bit overboard:
http://thelegion.free.fr/italic_languages.htm
That Germanic table has been my favorite piece of Wiki for a while now. I knew what the link was even before clicking it. :D
Some time ago inspired by it I made a similar (very simple) one of Romance languages for my private notebook: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11761721/romance.jpg
I'm almost ashamed to post the link as obviously yours is about 9000 times better. Have you considered sharing your knowledge and skills by adding your table to Wikipedia too? Because I think you should! In case you're not familiar with the Mediawiki format you can easily convert your html to the wiki format with a tool like this (http://tools.wmflabs.org/magnustools/html2wiki.php).
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Well, the problem with putting this on wikipedia is that it would probably get flagged as "original research"; there's a lot of uncertainty about the internal classification and the history of the romance languages, and some of the things on this table are, at best, educated guesses. So this shouldn't be considered a definitive and authoritative reference on the history of romance languages, merely an attempt to synthetise some of the avalaible theories into a diagram.
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That's always a problem with classifying marginal or extinct languages, but I don't think that would be a insurmountably obstacle if those uncertainties are properly marked. Like in that Germanic table: Note 1 is "There are conflicting opinions on the classification of Lombardic. It has also been classified as close to Old Saxon."
It's a lot of work definitely. Maybe there's a wikiproject that could help with this?
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I'm working on one of my conlangs and I want to include consonant mutation in compounds, and maybe also some vowel changes, and I am wondering if there are general trends for this or if it's random for each language. Most of the languages I know seem to have similar trends but that could easily be coincidence.
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I think the key is to understand how these changes come about in real languages.
What usually happens is that a phonetic change happens which creates the beginning of a pattern, and then speakers pick up on the pattern and regularize/systematize it to more words (all of this unconsciously of course).
Here's a fictional example to visualize:
Imagine a language that has the following:
i — definite article, "the"
tau — "cat"
-s — mark of genitive/possessive ("of")
-k — mark of dative ("to")
-m — mark of instrumental/commitative ("with")
So you get the following paradigm:
i tau — "the cat"
is taus — "of the cat"
ik tauk — "to the cat"
im taum — "with the cat"
Then the following changes happen: if t is preceded by a vowel, it lenites to d; if it's preceded by a fricative (like s) it spirantizes to þ; and if it's preceded by a nasal (like m) it nasalizes to n.
So now we get:
i dau
is þaus
ik tauk
im naum
And now let's add a further change: final consonants are lost; and so we get:
i dau
i þau
i tau
i nau
And we have created an initial consonant mutation pattern! This is, in a simplified way, more or less what happened in the celtic languages.
Vowel changes operate by the same logic. In Germanic language, a widespread change was the i-umlaut: the vowels a o u changed to ä/æ ö/ø ü/y when the next syllabled contained an i or a y/j.
So for instance, in the proto-germanic language, the word for "foot" was "fots" in the singular nominative and "fotiz" in the plural nominative. The "i" in the second vowel colored the "o" in the first, and was then later lost or weakened, leading to the following alternations in the modern languages:
German: Fuß — Füße
Yiddish: fus — fis*
Swedish: fot — fötter
English: foot — feet*
Icelandic: fótur — fætur*
*: Yiddish, English and Icelandic were later affected by other vowel changes which changed the pattern, but didn't erase it.
So the best way to replicate this in a conlang is to look up for the "sound changes" of real languages and see what they did — yes, this can be quite a lot of research, but realism in conlang comes at a price. Wikipedia has quite a lot of things on the subject:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_change
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_umlaut
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonant_mutation
While doing these changes, it's important to keep in mind that languages don't simply let these changes accumulate without control: there is always a great deal of analogy going on, that is, forms and paradigms are made more regular in order to try to fit patterns.
Here's an example of what analogy can do, with the evolution of Latin to Italian verbs.
Here's a bunch of Latin verbs, in 1st person singular, 2nd person singular, and 3rd person singular and plural:
(to be)
sum
es
est
sunt
(to have)
habeo
habes
habet
habent
(to sing)
canto
cantas
cantat
cantant
(to fear)
timeo
times
timet
timent
(to sleep)
dormio
dormis
dormit
dormiunt
While there are some irregularities, there also clearly are patterns going on. Now, if we'd just apply the known sound changes from Latin to Italian to these forms, without anything else, here's what we would get:
son
ei
è
son
ho
hai
ha
han
canto
cante
canta
canta
temio
temi
teme
teme
dormio
dormi
dorme
dormio
That is less functional, so instead the following changes occured:
An -o was added to the first person singular form of "to be", by analogy with the other verbs. To preserve the symetry, it was added to the third person plural too. So now both forms looked like "sono".
From this, a new pattern was created: the new form "-no" was taken as new third person plural marker and applied to all verbs. Like wise, the -i which shows up in many of the verbs was reanalysed as a second person marker, and applied to all verbs.
The forms in -io were simplified to -o, and the paradigms of "to fear" and "to sleep" were remodelled to become more like each other.
Finally, the second person form of "to be" got prefixed with s- to be more similar to the 1sg and 3pl forms.
So now we get the actual Italian verbs:
sono
sei
è
sono
ho
hai
ha
hanno
canto
canti
canta
cantano
temo
temi
teme
temono
dormo
dormi
dorme
dormono
And now there are much more obvious patterns.
So to sum it up: apply sound changes, look for resulting patterns and regularize/extend those patterns. Good luck!
Edit: I should add, you don't necessarily have to literally, concretely do all these steps — coming up with a convincing explanation for the current state of the language and explaining things that do not fit by "analogy" is often enough.
Basically any vowel/consonant change for which you can think of a possible underlying/historical mechanism that is attested in real language can be considered realistic.
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Thanks, Rollo. Your explanation is very helpful!
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Resurrecting this thread because I think this is a good topic, and it reminded me of a discussion Laufey, Haiz, and I had about the näkki lallis. Laufey told us that while näkki was the creature everyone was drawing, nakki is a sausage. This lead to speculation on sausage Lallis and some reminiscing on the dood leordie in which lalli sneaks up on a hotdog :D
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/me imagines a näkki nakki
That's... somehow oddly terrifying. The alluring sausage song...
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OOOH, this, there are many hungarian words, that means something without dots or lines or whatever on them. also if you even pronounce these wrong, it could mean else because of that.
we don't have ä but we have many else.
a-á
~talál - tálal (finds - make table ready for eat (?))
e-é
~fél - fel (is scared - up)
~él - el (lives - away)
~felél - felel (lives up (?) - answers)
o-ö
~török - torok (turkish - throat)
~dörömböl - dorombol (knocks violently - purrs)
ó-ő
~lő - ló (shoots - horse)
usually it is is not that important between i-í, o-ó, ö-ő, u-ú, ü-ű, because they are literally only the "longer versions" with the comma like thing on them.
however I know ONE word where it is really important:
~megörül - megőrül (gets happy (for something) - goes crazy)
I am sure there are tons of words but I cannot remember any at the moment.
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reminiscing on the dood leordie in which lalli sneaks up on a hotdog :D
(http://i.imgur.com/I0Y5iQn.png)
Those were the days my friend
We thought they'd never end
But yes, Finnish is dangerous like that, the umlauts are important. Sometimes all that makes the difference between looking at things and doing something unnecessarily amorous to the same things is whether you use an ä or an a. Like so:
Näin appelsiineja. = I saw oranges.
Nain appelsiineja. = I f-ed oranges.
Likewise - although now I'm getting a bit OT - the length of vowels matters too, just like in Martti's Hungarian example: Tuuri is a name (and as a word it means "luck"), turri basically means "hairy" and is a slang word for furries.
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But yes, Finnish is dangerous like that, the umlauts are important. Sometimes all that makes the difference between looking at things and doing something unnecessarily amorous to the same things is whether you use an ä or an a. Like so:
Näin appelsiineja. = I saw oranges.
Nain appelsiineja. = I f-ed oranges.
Likewise - although now I'm getting a bit OT - the length of vowels matters too, just like in Martti's Hungarian example: Tuuri is a name (and as a word it means "luck"), turri basically means "hairy" and is a slang word for furries.
finnish is dangerous, yes xD
and fav example on finnish with longer sounds is the
tapaan sinut illalla - tapan sinut illalla
but these are not vowels xD
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tapaan sinut illalla - tapan sinut illalla
Ahahahahah yes, that would be dangerous indeed. :D
Tapaan sinut illalla = I'll meet you in the evening.
Tapan sinut illalla = I'll kill you in the evening.
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In Russian there is a sort of similar problem. The letters Ё (yo) and Е (eh) are used pretty interchangeably in print despite having totally different pronunciation. The diacritic isn't written outside of dictionaries and children's books, leaving everyone else to determine from the context if the word is все ( vse = "everybody") or всё ( vsyo = "everything").
There's some call now to go back to printing it all the time (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yo_(Cyrillic)#Russian) as they used to, especially for translation and legal purposes, but it doesn't seem to have wide adoption yet, mostly up to the author.
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A map (not done by me) of historical dialect groups (not individual dialects, and not necessarily corresponding to the modern language) of Scandinavian:
(http://www.aveneca.com/Scandinavian_dialects_pwn2.png)
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Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. South African
2. Canadian
3. American (Standard)
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:
1. Norwegian
2. English
3. Dutch
I just found this funny because I only (really) speak French and English, learning English from birth xD
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Well. It was half right.
English dialect:
1. Singaporean
2. South African
3. Welsh
(The heck? For those who don't know, I've lived in Seattle my whole life.)
First language:
1. English
2. Norwegian
3. Swedish
(Ok, that's legit. I know I slip into a Norwegian accent when stressed/upset, and Swedish isn't a huge stretch.)
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Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. American (Standard)
2. Canadian
3. US Black Vernacular / Ebonics
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:
1. English
2. Norwegian
3. Dutch
I remember taking this 'test' awhile ago, and I did indeed get the exact same results as last time. It's actually really accurate for me? I mean, I definitely speak pretty standard American English, and English is definitely my native language(not to mention the only language I'm fluent in ahahah :'D). And numbers 2 and 3 for both are fair enough, they're likely the most similar to number 1 in both.
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Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. New Zealandish
2. Australian
3. Welsh (UK)
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:
1. English
2. Romanian
3. Greek
...Okay?? I have absolutely no idea where any of this is coming from. I don't know what either the New Zealandish or Australian dialect sounds like. I'd have thought my English dialect to be something like a mixture of "generic British English, generic American English, Singaporean", not... this combination of dialects with great accents. I'm glad to have fooled this program to think English is my native language, though. (That would actually be Finnish.)
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Our top three guesses for your English dialect:
1. Irish (Republic of)
2. Scottish (UK)
3. North Irish (UK)
Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:
1. English
2. Swedish
3. Finnish
Those dialects are all pretty close to each other, so i'm not surprised it didnt quite get it right for the first or second choice. it is interesting that it chose two languages that i'm actually learning! i kind of expected swedish, since it's close to english anyway and the grammar's similar enough, but finnish seems a bit random :o
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After reading your advices, I have decided to go with the "a few", etc. wordings.
ar = all
naar = a lot
eer = a few/some
neer = little
laar = two
leer = one
er = none
Note : sacred letter "A" is opposed to "E", thus the opposition in the number gradation
ikrin = first
sekrin = second
trakrin = third
kekrin = fourth
kikrin = fifth
ekrin = sixth
(I hope to go up to tenth ahah)
Question : Does those make sense ? Ahah I hope so x3
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As an offshoot from the "How do you say" thread where I was discussing how bad English Orthography was vs. Polish with Jerzy. Thought I'd make a new thread for people to discuss orthography in their native languages. Is your language sensible and well formatted or is it written like a free-for-all of letters, seemingly designed as an affront to common sense?
You sure? The word for porridge, "owsianka" could be spelled "ofśanka" and it would make absolutely no difference in pronunciation. It the same with "żołnierz" and "rzołńeż" , or "mucha" and "móha". The are, like, thousands of rules when to write "ż" and when "rz", when to write "ą" or "on/om", when to write "ó" or "u", etc.. It's nightmare of children when they learn to write. Poor, little monsters.
I don't doubt Polish orthography is messy, but in my opinion English is just a car crash.
A humorous example first: "Fish" can theoretically be written "ghoti" in English... the gh in laugh, the o in women and the ti in motion. Ok, realistically those letters don't make those sounds in those situations in syllables but y'know, those letter clusters can make those sounds at times.
We have the zr/ż sound, but nothing that signifies it, you just have to know that sometimes "s" is a hissed sound as in "silence" (incidentally, the "c" is also the same sound here because reasons), sometimes a "z" as in "was", sometimes it's a "sh" as in "sure" and sometimes is a "zr/ż" as in "pleasure". A lot of English speakers use it without realising we actually have it in our language.
There's a brilliant poem about English and it's nonsense orthography: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~clamen/misc/humour/TheChaos.html listing many words that are either written or pronounced the same way, but rarely both. Think like "beer-beard-bear" and "project and project/wind and wind"
It's not all that surprising that English is confusing though: we cobbled our language together from a Old English, Norman French and French-French. Spellings are often based on both parent language families though they used totally different spelling conventions (why some words end -er and some end -re for no clear reason). For some context it's worth noting that Old English is nothing like Modern English, it's actually much closer to Modern Icelandic than it is to Modern English.
After that we standardised our spelling in the middle of a 200 year pronunciation shift, by the time pronunciation had stabilised many of the spellings were no longer accurate. We never updated it though.
Problems stem from other issues as well, such as old fonts that made us change sensible spellings around the letters i, u, m and n because they couldn't be told apart when written together. Latin obsessed academics who tried to make English more Latin-like e.g. "isle" was originally "ile" until scholars decided it should be like the Latin "insular", it's just a mercy we were spared "insle". And last but not least, German made printing presses meant we lost the letters thorn (Þ, þ) and eth (Ð, ð) and yogh (Ȝ, ȝ) was lost to changing handwriting which meant people had to improvise.
The odds were stacked against us and also we made absolutely no effort to improve things.
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Sorry if I'm mistaken but I couldn't find a thread anywhere on this board for just talking about linguistics in general or any linguistic theories, so I decided to make one.
First, let me share my favorite linguistics blog, All Things Linguistic. (http://allthingslinguistic.com/) It has neat news relevant to linguistics and some articles discussing interesting linguistic stuff.
There's also one of my favorite documentaries, The Linguists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Linguists) which is about dying languages (many of the languages examined in the documentary have 10 or less speakers of it alive today, mostly these speakers being older so the languages likely won't have any speakers and be dead languages within the next few decades)
Also, I guess I'm making this because I've actually spent a lot of time lately thinking about Noam Chomsky's theory of Universal Grammar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_grammar). Specifically I've been thinking a lot about the "there are components and properties that all human languages share" bit. Because really, I'm quite amazed and in awe of how potentially drastically different forms of human communication could be but instead there's always these specific patterns they fall into. I had a professor last semester who was pretty much a huge Noam Chomsky fanboy and he'd talk about how people always focus on the differences in language, and yeah it's really neat the diversity of sounds and grammar that human languages can take, but it's also something in of itself to appreciate and be in awe of how similar languages are and the similarities that can be found from language to language even when developed totally independently hundreds or thousands of miles apart and on different continents.
Also, language evolution is something I've always found really fascinating. I never got a chance to take any classes on it which I'm pretty bummed about, so if anyone knows any cool theories or has any cool sources about language evolution that would be much appreciated. I've been thinking about emailing my old linguistics professor and asking him if he has any cool books or sources on language evolution.
Speaking of language evolution and the documentary I brought up earlier, as is covered in the documentary we're going through a sort of language mass extinction currently, mostly due to increased globalization. It's estimated that there are currently around 7,000 active languages in the world right now, but around half of those or more are going to be gone by the end of the century. I guess I got interested in language evolution when I asked my professor how likely it was that new languages would spring up to replace the dead or dying ones, and essentially he said that unless it's a constructed language like Esperanto, it's highly unlikely that entirely new languages and especially as many as 3-4,000 will come into existence in just a century because language evolution is a pretty long process.
So now I get kind of excited sometimes thinking about predictions on what directions language evolution is going to go over the next few hundred years, and what new dialects or languages that don't exist now will exist in hundreds or thousands of years from now. I briefly toyed with the idea of going to grad school for language evolution and doing fun projects like predicting what new hypothetical languages might exist someday. Kind of like that weird documentary that came out "The Future is Wild" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Future_Is_Wild) (which is also still one of my FAVORITE documentaries because it's just, weird and silly but super interesting) except with languages instead of animals.
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I am not a linguistics student, nor do I know much about it as a discipline. However, it's an area that has interested me for a long time.
I'd love to find/discuss resources on here! ;D
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Excuse the double post, but I found a free course on Coursera that is a short introduction to linguistics for anyone that's interested. The course is titled "Miracles of Human Language: An Introduction to Linguistics" :)
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I am not a linguistics student, nor do I know much about it as a discipline. However, it's an area that has interested me for a long time.
I'd love to find/discuss resources on here! ;D
Excuse the double post, but I found a free course on Coursera that is a short introduction to linguistics for anyone that's interested. The course is titled "Miracles of Human Language: An Introduction to Linguistics" :)
Don't worry, I've only taken one linguistics class actually and it was specifically on second language acquisition, soooo most of the stuff I know about linguistics is just about that, I never took an introductory course (as much as I would have liked to !) so thank you for sharing that :D
Speaking of sharing resources, I finally heard back from my linguistics professor regarding some books on language evolution ! One of them is called "Adam's Tongue: How Humans Made Language, How Language Made Humans" by Derek Bickerton, and the other is "The Unfolding of Language: An Evolutionary Tour of Mankind's Greatest Invention" by Guy Deutscher.
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I'm subscribed to an emailing list forum thing on auxlangs that talks about linguistics, so if anyone's interested in that, here's a link you can use to subscribe: https://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=AUXLANG&A=1
There's another one that's a conlang mailing list, with the link here: https://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=CONLANG&A=1
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Ooo! Ooo! *jumps up and down*
This website! (https://www.ethnologue.com/)
It lists every single one of the world's languages and where they're spoken and whether they're going extinct or just coming into existence and it has data and information and it's all very beautiful :D
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Ooo! Ooo! *jumps up and down*
This website! (https://www.ethnologue.com/)
It lists every single one of the world's languages and where they're spoken and whether they're going extinct or just coming into existence and it has data and information and it's all very beautiful :D
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA I love this site so much and I've barely looked at it.
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English is a crazy blender. I am so glad that it's my first language.
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This website! (https://www.ethnologue.com/)
It lists every single one of the world's languages and where they're spoken and whether they're going extinct or just coming into existence and it has data and information and it's all very beautiful :D
I guess that's why Minna specifically named it as her main source (http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=196) for the data she worked into the famous language tree ... :P
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Ooo! Ooo! *jumps up and down*
This website! (https://www.ethnologue.com/)
It lists every single one of the world's languages and where they're spoken and whether they're going extinct or just coming into existence and it has data and information and it's all very beautiful :D
Yessss! I've been working through that linguistics course and they love to use this site. :)
Speaking of which, this week's video lessons include a 30-minute video interview with Noam Chomsky!
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Hi!
This is a really great thread! I love linguistics; fell in love with it by accident last year through an introductory course in my English studies. I'm studying more English now and Second Language acquisition and everything suddenly makes sense! A bit more particularly I'm interested in how children learn new languages because so many move with their parents and have to learn a new language while going to school. I only recently learned that this isn't actually a good way to do it because for a 7 year old coming to a new language, it takes between 5 and 8 years to get up to speed, so to speak - to be at the same level as their peers. That is a lot of time spent in school not being able to understand the teaching language properly.
Other than that, I'm also interested in different writing systems. I love how written language technically is really arbitrary and we understand it only because we have created meaning for kinda strange symbols.
To add to the pool of linguistic information:
Tom Scott on Youtube has made some really good videos about various topics, but he doesn't do it regularly and hasn't posted such videos for a while so a bit of digging is necessary. They're worth it though!
NativLang on Youtube is also good and animations have been getting better, but they don't post a lot. Their video on the hardest language to spell was really good and shows some of that arbitrariness of written language that I so like.
Ted-ed sometimes has language videos.
On the topic of language history: What are your thoughts on Basque? Basque doesn't fit into any major or minor language group in Europe. It's just there... Between Spain and France. I think it's pretty cool and I wonder how it is different from French and Spanish particualrly because it must have been influenced by two major languages, and how it is different from the rest of Europe's languages that makes it a language isolate.
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Hiya all!
A friend of mine, a student of Linguistics, needs help for an linguistic assignment.
For that she needs Swedish nativespeakers who had previously contact with German (whether in school or self-study or anything else). You do not need to be awesome in it - just able to read a few (very few) german sentences and record them somehow.
If you want to take part, just drop me a message. I will get in contact as soon as I have more intel. *huggles all*
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Hello again!
My friend, who studies Linguistics, needs some Swedish native speakers to read some German sentences for her. She needs those for an experiment in one of her classes and a subsequent analysis (so I can't spoil you about what exactly she is looking for - be assured though that it is nothing bad).
Below you find the text and a few questions she needs you to answer. Also provided is a Swedish Translation of the text, so that you know what you are reading. =)
Please record here (http://vocaroo.com/) and send the link from your recording (or the downloaded mp3) to this E-Mail: knickel@uni-potsdam.de
As a thank you I offer you a sketch or a short scene/ficlet, if you want. Thank you again for your support!
****
Study for the University Potsdam, Institut für Germanistik - Phonetik/Phonologie
Speakers of Swedisch (mother tongue)
Please answer the following questions.
Age
Gender
Where/why did you learn German? (e.g. School, University Home/hobby)
For how long did you learn German?
Please read the following German text as naturally as possible.
Der Nordwind und die Sonne.
Einst stritten sich Nordwind und Sonne, wer von ihnen beiden wohl der Stärkere wäre, als ein Wanderer, der in einen warmen Mantel gehüllt war, des Weges daherkam. Sie wurden einig, dass derjenige für den Stärkeren gelten sollte, der den Wanderer zwingen würde, seinen Mantel auszuziehen. Der Nordwind blies mit aller Macht, aber je mehr er blies, desto fester hüllte sich der Wanderer in seinen Mantel ein. Endlich gab der Nordwind den Kampf auf. Da erwärmte die Sonne die Luft mit ihren freundlichen Strahlen, und schon nach wenigen Augenblicken zog der Wanderer seinen Mantel aus. Da musste der Nordwind zugeben, dass die Sonne von ihnen beiden der Stärkere war.
Nordanvinden och solen
Nordanvinden och solen tvistade en gång om vem av dom som var starkast. Just då kom en vandrare vägen fram, insvept i en varm kappa. Dom kom då överens om, att den som först kunde få vandraren att ta av sig kappan, han skulle anses vara starkare än den andra. Då blåste nordanvinden så hårt han nånsin kunde, men ju hårdare han blåste desto tätare svepte vandraren kappan om sig, och till sist gav nordanvinden upp försöket. Då lät solen sina strålar skina helt varmt och genast tog vandraren av sig kappan, och så var nordanvinden tvungen att erkänna att solen var den starkaste av dom två.
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Finnish is relatively well behaved, but statement "written as spoken" is slightly misleading. Especially "nk" and "ng" in middle of word (and only place native finnish word does have a "g" in it). For example "kanki" and "kangen" (base and genetive) its not kan - ki (so not a "can - ki" for close english approximation) but a ka(nk) -ki where nk is sort of english end of word "sink" and similarly kan - gen is not right, but ka(ng)-gen where ng sound like end of "sing". Also often when next word begins with vovel, consonant from pervious word slightly carries over "sinun äänesi" is "sinun (n)äänesi, but "carry over" is very weak.
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Q: Reynir cooking? Lalli cooking? Sigrun cooking?
A. (2:28:32): [...] Sigrun, obviously she’s a warrior and the daughter of the chief of her town, she would never have to cook, there is a chef who cooks the meals of the warriors [...]
I don't think that that's an approach she would've been able to stick to during military deployments before rising to the rank of captain ...
Q: Do you think any of the prologue characters ever lived long enough to see their great-grandkids?
A. (04:18:08): [...] in the sense that she was in the stomach as a baby about to be born in the prologue [...]
:o
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Yeah well, do you really come up with a term like 'womb' in conversation in your third language? Big ups to those of you who can.
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In Swedish you say stomach, at least in normal casual conversations, so I didn't even realize something was wrong, no idea what they say in Finnish... Gotta try to remember "womb" so people don't laugh at me if I ever decide to write a pregnant character xD
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In Swedish you say stomach, at least in normal casual conversations, so I didn't even realize something was wrong, no idea what they say in Finnish... Gotta try to remember "womb" so people don't laugh at me if I ever decide to write a pregnant character xD
Yeah, not just in Swedish, I think in a lot of languages it's common to say that babies are in their mother's "belly" (especially if you're trying to be super family friendly) - and English seems to use stomach and belly pretty interchangeably. I've seen people say "stomach" even when they definitely meant gut, and such. Not really something to get hung up on either way imo.
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'Womb' is my new earworm. Egads, it is such a weird word when isolated.
Don't mind me, I'll just sit here intoning the word 'womb,' watching the syllable curl into the air like purple smoke.
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This most recent conversation made me really curious about the origins of the word "womb," so I looked up the etymology really quickly (https://www.etymonline.com/word/womb#etymonline_v_10827). JoB: is "womb" commonly used in German? Because the English word came from Proto-Germanic, although the source I use also says that there was an Old Norse word for "womb," which this thread indicates didn't really make its way to modern conversational language.
Also, come to think of it, I don't think anyone would bat an eye if you used "belly" instead of "womb" in regular conversation in English.
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Hence the MiddleEnglish and northern English dialect word 'wame', I suppose?
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Hence the MiddleEnglish and northern English dialect word 'wame', I suppose?
Yeah (https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/middle-english-dictionary/dictionary/MED53355/track?counter=1&search_id=44180)! Good catch!
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This most recent conversation made me really curious about the origins of the word "womb," so I looked up the etymology really quickly (https://www.etymonline.com/word/womb#etymonline_v_10827). JoB: is "womb" commonly used in German? Because the English word came from Proto-Germanic, although the source I use also says that there was an Old Norse word for "womb," which this thread indicates didn't really make its way to modern conversational language.
Also, come to think of it, I don't think anyone would bat an eye if you used "belly" instead of "womb" in regular conversation in English.
There's Wampe/Wumpe/Wamme/Wumme, all colloquialisms for a (usually fat) belly or by extension an overweight person in German, but it must have shed the pregnancy-related connotations at some point along the way.
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In Swedish you say stomach, at least in normal casual conversations, so I didn't even realize something was wrong, no idea what they say in Finnish... Gotta try to remember "womb" so people don't laugh at me if I ever decide to write a pregnant character xD
Well, it would be quite usual for me and my family members to say 'kohtu' that means womb if that's what we're talking about. My mother was a nurse though that might have something to do with it... Still, small children likely wouldn't.
Something like:
My womb's a bit swollen, I think I'm going to menstruate soon.
Or. "Hey baby, it's about time for you to come out. Kick some speed from the womb bottom."
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There's Wampe/Wumpe/Wamme/Wumme, all colloquialisms for a (usually fat) belly or by extension an overweight person in German, but it must have shed the pregnancy-related connotations at some point along the way.
That would make sense. Judging by the Middle English dictionary, the English word had belly-related connotations as well that were dropped at some point :P Interesting!
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This most recent conversation made me really curious about the origins of the word "womb," so I looked up the etymology really quickly (https://www.etymonline.com/word/womb#etymonline_v_10827). JoB: is "womb" commonly used in German? Because the English word came from Proto-Germanic, although the source I use also says that there was an Old Norse word for "womb," which this thread indicates didn't really make its way to modern conversational language.
Please note the change of meaning implied by the page you link to: While the non-English precursors refer to the belly as a whole, English started to shift it until today, "womb" exclusively refers to the uterus.
German has its own term for the uterus, "Gebärmutter", but using it to refer to an unborn's whereabouts its very uncommon AFAICT. The standard wording is that a woman has a "Baby im Bauch", i.e., the belly. The (rather old-fashioned by now) "Wamme" and (still current) "Wampe" likewise refer to the belly as a whole.
FWIW, apart from the cannibalistic option, German would allow a baby to figuratively "lie heavily in my stomach" if its existence - still to be born or not - presents seemingly insurmountable problems of some kind.
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Interesting. The usage of 'mother' specifically for the organ we would call 'womb' persisted in English at least until the seventeenth century. Several English herbals and medical texts of around that time contain phrases like 'oppression or diseases of the mother' for what we would call 'gynæcological problems'. Authors such as Parkinson, Culpeper and Gerard spring to mind.
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Please note the change of meaning implied by the page you link to: While the non-English precursors refer to the belly as a whole, English started to shift it until today, "womb" exclusively refers to the uterus.
German has its own term for the uterus, "Gebärmutter", but using it to refer to an unborn's whereabouts its very uncommon AFAICT. The standard wording is that a woman has a "Baby im Bauch", i.e., the belly. The (rather old-fashioned by now) "Wamme" and (still current) "Wampe" likewise refer to the belly as a whole.
FWIW, apart from the cannibalistic option, German would allow a baby to figuratively "lie heavily in my stomach" if its existence - still to be born or not - presents seemingly insurmountable problems of some kind.
Right, I somehow missed the difference in meaning in the original link and only noticed it when I went to look up the Middle English word Gonna go ahead and use sleep deprivation as an excuse for sloppy reading comprehension. I guess the general consensus across the languages mentioned so far in this conversation (except for Finnish maybe?) is that belly = casual conversation, and womb = more formal/old-fashioned.
Interesting. The usage of 'mother' specifically for the organ we would call 'womb' persisted in English at least until the seventeenth century. Several English herbals and medical texts of around that time contain phrases like 'oppression or diseases of the mother' for what we would call 'gynæcological problems'. Authors such as Parkinson, Culpeper and Gerard spring to mind.
That's good to know! Using "mother" makes a weird amount of sense.
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In Dutch we also say 'baarmoeder', similar to German 'Gebärmutter'.
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*slides into a 4-years-dead post because I can't keep my mouth shut even on the internet*
I would like to add for consideration the story of my sign language classmate who moved his hands down instead of up and told us all about the nude (he meant "event") his friend was hosting.
Not quite as bad, since he used the word in its adjective form... but still, I have never seen anyone turn red as quickly as this fellow did when he found out what he had actually said.
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On the one hand, this thread has been lying dormant for several months again, on the other hand, it's still one of the most current ones in the language board, so...
My favourite example in German:
Mädchen - Girl
Madchen - Diminutive form of maggot, possibly an especially small or cute maggot
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Thread necromancy is fine, with examples like this! XD
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I know I´m at it again with the sort-of-necromancy, but at least I´m doing it in a relatively recently used thread.
So as a very enthusiastic minnion who wants to understand the runos and just really likes how the spelling looks, I started practicing Finnish (hence change in description :))). And I ran into a problem yesterday that sort of fits this threads Topic:
How is "Good evening" in Finnish spelled? My learning-app says "Hyvää iltää", but my phone´s language-setting insists on "Hyvää iltaa", and claims to not know "iltää". I wouldn´t put it past either of the programs to be wrong about it, and I don´t want to say something drastically different to what I thought it ment, should the spelling change the meaning.
So is there any actual Finnish-speaking person here who could help me with that?
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Iltaa is correct. A and ä are two different sounds altogether. Since in Finnish there is basically one sound to one letter, when you know Finnish you can write any word you hear pronounced. And vice versa of course, if you see something witten, you know how to say it.
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Thank you! ;D
The thing is I never actually heard it spoken, or just by a computer voice that was in the program. And I heard how this voice butchered the german translations, so I didn´t trust it too far with the Finnish pronounciation either.
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Minna suggested the precursor to this site https://ttsdemo.com/ (https://ttsdemo.com/) someplace on the Redtail's Dream website. Maybe it'd be helpful? She said that Mikko had a good accent for the aRtD characters.
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Yes, that is very good! The intonation is weird in longer sentences, but the pronunciation of each word is very good! The male voices Mikko and Marko are better than the women.
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Minna suggested the precursor to this site https://ttsdemo.com/ (https://ttsdemo.com/) someplace on the Redtail's Dream website. Maybe it'd be helpful? She said that Mikko had a good accent for the aRtD characters.
Woah, I had no idea something like that existed. Thanks for the recommendation!
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Yep, thank you Vulpes! I keep losing that link, and again didn’t have it. Mabby I should put a bookmark on it?
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No problem, and thanks for confirming the pronunciation thing, Jitter. I mostly use it to check individual words anyway!
Hm, now that I'm on actual vacation (as opposed to the vacations I normally end up taking where I might as well still be working) maybe I should go back to trying to learn Finnish! I kind of lost steam, what with having to figure out emergency remote teaching - exhausting - and having my sabbatical plans scuppered - disappointing. No trip to Finland (or anywhere else I'd been planning) so I lost enthusiasm... but I was enjoying it, so I should get going on it again. Maybe next sabbatical I can travel!
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Yep, thank you Vulpes! I keep losing that link, and again didn’t have it. Mabby I should put a bookmark on it?
My list of bookmarks on dicitionaries and all sorts of things has been rapidly increasing ever since I started following SSSS, so here´s to one more :'D
No problem, and thanks for confirming the pronunciation thing, Jitter. I mostly use it to check individual words anyway!
Hm, now that I'm on actual vacation (as opposed to the vacations I normally end up taking where I might as well still be working) maybe I should go back to trying to learn Finnish! I kind of lost steam, what with having to figure out emergency remote teaching - exhausting - and having my sabbatical plans scuppered - disappointing. No trip to Finland (or anywhere else I'd been planning) so I lost enthusiasm... but I was enjoying it, so I should get going on it again. Maybe next sabbatical I can travel!
Yeah, hope dies last! My family was also planning a short trip to Finland around witsun that got cancelled. Funnily enough that´s what actually brought me to start learning Finnish. If I can´t go there, at least I can do something.
Are you a teacher? If so, my sympathies! That entire home-schooling-thing was a gigantic chaos, it must have been a massive amount of work for you.
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Yeah, hope dies last! My family was also planning a short trip to Finland around witsun that got cancelled. Funnily enough that´s what actually brought me to start learning Finnish. If I can´t go there, at least I can do something.
Are you a teacher? If so, my sympathies! That entire home-schooling-thing was a gigantic chaos, it must have been a massive amount of work for you.
So a cancelled trip got you learning Finnish? Complete opposite here, although I was planning to be in Finland for a month or two, so learning a little before going did have a purpose - as a result, cancelling the trip made it harder to motivate myself to study. Not to mention how distracted I've been with the remote working thing.
I'm a university professor, so I got off lightly. The winter uni semester ended in mid-April, but schools just wrapped up recently. I had two weeks of emergency remote teaching and then exams. Since then it's just been adjusting to virtual meetings (so many meetings!) and dealing with a grad student thesis via email; my research kind of got parked for a bit. My cousin teaches grade 5, and was struggling to keep her weaker students with fewer home supports on track. At least I'm dealing with pretty independent young adults.
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Well, I'm not sure if this is the right place, so if not please tell me and I will remove or post it in a more appropriate thread.
Today XKCD published this lovely "episode" about the true word for "bear". I believe it will be of interest (and it's fun!) :)
https://xkcd.com/2381/ (https://xkcd.com/2381/)
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Well, I'm not sure if this is the right place, so if not please tell me and I will remove or post it in a more appropriate thread.
Today XKCD published this lovely "episode" about the true word for "bear". I believe it will be of interest (and it's fun!) :)
https://xkcd.com/2381/ (https://xkcd.com/2381/)
Oh wow that is so cool! Thanks for sharing!!!
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A-a-and since I started to dig into ugorian mythology...
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Not properly linguistics, but a funny way of comparing what different languages sound like. Here’s a video including clips in multiple languages from when Frodo puts on the One Ring and hears Sauron’s voice.
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No Finnish or Scandinavian languages, as we use subtitles rather than dubbing except for children’s programs and movies. I assume it’s the same for the Scandinavians, at least back when we used to buy (or rent!) dvd’s, the one sold in Finland also had subs in all Scandinavian languages.
I loke subtitles way better than dubbing but this video has a couple of examples of the by far worst solution too! A few of these are like read aloud subtitles where the English original sound plays in the background and then someone just translates in monotonous voice. It’s utterly ridiculous even in normal speech scenes, but here especially it just destroys the scene. Is anyone here (and still around) from somewhere that you are used to this way of providing translation?
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I loke subtitles way better than dubbing but this video has a couple of examples of the by far worst solution too! A few of these are like read aloud subtitles where the English original sound plays in the background and then someone just translates in monotonous voice. It’s utterly ridiculous even in normal speech scenes, but here especially it just destroys the scene.
In [former] Soviet Union [and its neighbors], apparatchik voice scarier than Sauron? :3
Is anyone here (and still around) from somewhere that you are used to this way of providing translation?
Not here ... gods, video snippets of politicians' speeches shown in the day's TV news here get a more empathic German voiceover!
My biggest pet peeve are bad translations, however. Worst offender (so far ...) being a sci-fi flick where they translated the punchline of "I'm like a graveyard ... I take anybody" literally. (Pro tip: There's not the faintest allusion to whatever "body" in the German version of "anybody" ("jede(n)"). And literally saying "jeden Körper" pretty much focuses the topic on corpses, rather than suggesting "yeah, OK, I'll team up with you" like in that scene.)
What I find interesting in the comparison video is that apparently not even all the dubbers had a "background noises" track to combine with the dubbing, though you would supposedly be able to pass that one to all dubbers alike. And ... is the Tamil (IIRC) version actually putting an entirely out-of-character background music "under" the dubbing?!?
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I thought the Tamil version was handled like a Tamil movie, so yeah, music welling underneath. I'm vaguely surprised it didn't circle back to being a full on musical like Tolkien (more-or-less) wrote it. I'd get out the popcorn for the all-singing all-dancing Tamil version of Tom Bombadil, in a heartbeat!
The partial overlay in the Ukrainian version used the underlying English to make it sound eerily like Sauron was talking a bit in tongues, and kind of fitting, I thought. Perhaps in another scene (eg Pippin asking about second breakfast) the effect would have been more annoying. But JoB is correct that the more monotonous dub style was very off-putting.
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I'm vaguely surprised it didn't circle back to being a full on musical like Tolkien (more-or-less) wrote it. I'd get out the popcorn for the all-singing all-dancing Tamil version of Tom Bombadil, in a heartbeat!
[semi-watched the re-airing of the Five Armies on TV last week]
[imagines The Battle happening in chorus line style]
[... not that the first moves of the elven troops were that far from it ...]