I would want to join a silmarillion rereading event. But I have no useful Idea how to organzie this.
A little note: if you’re reading the Silmarillion for the first time be prepared to not understand what in the world is going on.But it is still a book you can enjoy without understandig it. And as far as I can say even when rereading it multiple times, I always discover some nice details I did not notice or understand in the previous readings.
So, it's September (here in Europe at least) and our quest deep into the history of Arda shall begin!I approve of this schedule, although in the future, I would suggest adjusting the number of chapters per week according to their length. Some of the later chapters get pretty long, while others are only a couple of pages in length.
As discussed, we'll do it in week-long chunks. This is the discussion schedule - you can of course read faster (or slower) but discussion of each section and the work up to that section shall begin on Monday of each week.
Schedule: Read by / discussion starts
Ainulindalë - 6 September
Valaquenta - 13 September
Quenta Silmarillion:
Chapters 1&2 - 20 September
Chapters 3&4 - 27 September
and so on. We can adjust the length of the reading chunk as we go along, this seems like a very relaxed pace but let's at least start slow.
The whole 'creative struggle' bit at the beginning makes me (as a creator) feel some sympathy for Melkor. Sure, he's a bit of a diva, but he's the only one trying to be Creative on a large scale, and I have to give him props for that.
And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not it's uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful. which he himself hath not imagined.’
...for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice, even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment but is not made thereby.
Starting with the first word feels like a quite natural singers/poets creation. But Tolkien startet with a complete complex song with 3 quite different movements. Maybe the difference between the two methods is that in Tolkiens way to do it the whole history of the world is already determined.
Doesn't he even say that Melkor's whole 'rebellion' is part of his design?
So, yes, some of the most wonderful parts of the design could not be created without the discord of Melkor, and, yes, even that discord has it's source in Iluvatar.
Still finding Iluvatar a bit pompous and annoying... this will be a recurring theme for me. I always like the middle-managers of the Elves better than their leaders. Ulmo is pretty cool, though.
BTW, check out that bit at the end, about gender identity among the Ainur:
I feel the ending could well be interpreted to mean that Melkor's actions in trying to destroy everything the valar created may have an effect on this. That his destruction added an element of the unexpected, again appearing as destruction that also creates? So that while the World came into being based on the Song, the cycle of creation and destruction perhaps changed it so that it doesn't have to follow the Song exactly?This is an idea I like. Because it would open a way for the humans to find their own path between creation and destruction. Basically creating their own song.
Yeah I noticed that and it rubs me the wrong way a bit. Ok written SO LONG ago (I mean by JRR, not the Second Age or whatever, but still) and therefore understandable but why would a non-corporeal Power need a gender?That ist a point that puzzles me. But I am a weirdo I don't understand the relevance of gender differences for real people so I thought I was the only one puzzled by this.
Yeah so, any thoughts?Definitely male in the Polish translation.
I have a question. I Ilúvatar male or female? I’m reading in Finnish, and we have only one word for both he and she.
I assume it’s male, but I’ve always considered her female. In Finnish the suffix -tar usually means a female form, so for example in Lalli’s moon spell Kuutar means basically Mistress Moon (kuu = moon + tar). So while Ilúvatar is not Finnish, it carries a strong indication of a female person for me.
The whole 'creative struggle' bit at the beginning makes me (as a creator) feel some sympathy for Melkor. Sure, he's a bit of a diva, but he's the only one trying to be Creative on a large scale, and I have to give him props for that. (Also the whole music-battle, with the different pieces described, is a little 'Devil went down to Georgia', but with the person opposing the Devil being all-powerful, which makes much less fair.)
I feel completely the same about Melkor. He wants to create his own original creations I can feek this. And he does not only destroy he does add new things to the world like the snowflakes. And as his Brothers and Sisters Melkor is a Part of Ilúvatars thoughts. At least from my point of view this is an accurate psychological description. The part of my mind that makes me to try to improve and acquire new skill is the same part that wants to burn all of my works because they are not good enough.I never thought about it this way, but yeah, and once we get into Quenta Silmarillion, you'll see just how much Melkor got screwed over in the grand scheme of things.
Doesn't he even say that Melkor's whole 'rebellion' is part of his design?
Oh yes! Trololoo, I'm just letting you "rebel" :DThat part is irritating. Ilúvatar is practically challenging Melkor to rebel and even rubs the futility of it in his face.
BTW, check out that bit at the end, about gender identity among the Ainur:
Yeah I noticed that and it rubs me the wrong way a bit. Ok written SO LONG ago (I mean by JRR, not the Second Age or whatever, but still) and therefore understandable but why would a non-corporeal Power need a gender?
That ist a point that puzzles me. But I am a weirdo I don't understand the relevance of gender differences for real people so I thought I was the only one puzzled by this.
I guess many people (including both Tolkien, and the hypothetical loremasters who wrote the Silm in theory) are uncomfortable with beings of unclear gender. (I don't get it either, of course.) I think I will end up pointing out other strange (to me) takes on gender throughout. I do think it's interesting that he definitely sees it as a function of the soul, not the flesh, though.It is certainly strange. Then again, it was written a century ago.
That part is irritating. Ilúvatar is practically challenging Melkor to rebel and even rubs the futility of it in his face.
As an interaction between independent individuals this is completely strange. But Melkor is one of Ilúvatars thoughts and part of his personality. And from this perspective it is at least for me not strange. I do not know how common this is, but it is very much how my mind works.
That’s a very interesting question, Jitter, I was actually thinking that it’s not that uncommon. In the Bible Satan is exactly the fallen one, who dragged a few other (i think they were angels) beings to the dark side, and keeps creating problems in the world. This part is actually very similar to the story of the Bible, which a lot of the Silmarillion is, sometimes it amazes me. It’s covered up by all the events so well that it’s often hard to see the parallel, but when you do, it seems really grand.And here I thought this was really obvious...
And here I thought this was really obvious...This scene is obvious, you're right. I was talking about some other things, further into the story. Some of them are covered really well.
This is a surprising as in the same tales the evil side tends to be approximately evenly matched with the good, or, quite often, clearly stronger.If good and evil are near to evenly matched there is the potential for a good ans complex story. If one side is much more powerful it will be a quick win and end of the story.
Also there seems to be many ingenious ways of being evil, while the good guys often are fairly similar to each other. So, is the fallen one MUCH more influential than the others? Is evil a contagious disease with higher infectiousness than good? Is there any hope for any of the worlds in the long run? Is Jitter making any sense?The good guys are in my opinion incorporation the rules and principles of the world. So they have to be similar. All the contradicting principles are incorporated by the fallen one. Wich in my opinion is a good metaphor for living in a society. There is a set of rules and as long as you follow them you are one of the good guys. But it seems impossible for Humans to live by just following the rules they tend to break them at least from time to time, sometimes even for good reasons. I think this is why so many people are telling this sort of storys because too much rulebreaking lets a society collapse and there is no good way to eliminate it at all.
If good and evil are near to evenly matched there is the potential for a good ans complex story. If one side is much more powerful it will be a quick win and end of the story.Or a lot of convoluted Deus Ex Machina plot nonsense.
The good guys are in my opinion incorporation the rules and principles of the world. So they have to be similar. All the contradicting principles are incorporated by the fallen one. Wich in my opinion is a good metaphor for living in a society. There is a set of rules and as long as you follow them you are one of the good guys. But it seems impossible for Humans to live by just following the rules they tend to break them at least from time to time, sometimes even for good reasons. I think this is why so many people are telling this sort of storys because too much rulebreaking lets a society collapse and there is no good way to eliminate it at all.Spoken like a true Lawful Good character. ;)
As an interaction between independent individuals this is completely strange. But Melkor is one of Ilúvatars thoughts and part of his personality. And from this perspective it is at least for me not strange. I do not know how common this is, but it is very much how my mind works.I never said that it doesn't make sense, only that it's irritating. While it's true that Melkor is ultimately an aspect of Eru and as such, it's impossible for him to truly outplay his creator, Ilúvatar taunting him about it makes the benevolent creator of the world look like a jerk.
If good and evil are near to evenly matched there is the potential for a good ans complex story. If one side is much more powerful it will be a quick win and end of the story.
But it seems impossible for Humans to live by just following the rules they tend to break them at least from time to time, sometimes even for good reasons. I think this is why so many people are telling this sort of storys because too much rulebreaking lets a society collapse and there is no good way to eliminate it at all.
I never said that it doesn't make sense, only that it's irritating. While it's true that Melkor is ultimately an aspect of Eru and as such, it's impossible for him to truly outplay his creator, Ilúvatar taunting him about it makes the benevolent creator of the world look like a jerk.
Spoken like a true Lawful Good character. ;)Let's say halfway lawful. A truly lawful one would not say that humans can not live without breaking the law from time to time. And good? It is possible to make really evil laws and the statement would still be true.
I never said that it doesn't make sense, only that it's irritating. While it's true that Melkor is ultimately an aspect of Eru and as such, it's impossible for him to truly outplay his creator, Ilúvatar taunting him about it makes the benevolent creator of the world look like a jerk.Makes him somehow realistic for me. He knows he has a chaotic (self)destructive side and he has to deal with it somehow. Methods to do so may vary I am not a psychologist.
Let's say halfway lawful. A truly lawful one would not say that humans can not live without breaking the law from time to time. And good? It is possible to make really evil laws and the statement would still be true.No, that's just common sense.
Makes him somehow realistic for me. He knows he has a chaotic (self)destructive side and he has to deal with it somehow. Methods to do so may vary I am not a psychologist.I don't think provoking your destructive side to rebel against you is a good way of handling it in any circumstance, but to each their own, I guess.
I don't think provoking your destructive side to rebel against you is a good way of handling it in any circumstance, but to each their own, I guess.How else would you get it to work?
* Some of the Valar are siblings. How?Because. Technically they should all be brothers and sisters, being all born from Ilúvatar's thoughts. Maybe Eru imagined them as such?
I'm not at home today, or tomorrow, and I don't want to comment using just my memory, so I'll have to wait until thursday to reread that chapter and be able to say more.It's alright, we'll be waiting for you!
Hugs!
Yeah, given the importance of music and poetry in Tolkien’s world, starting with the very music of creation, it is a surprise there is no god of music.
I am a bit confused by the seven FATHERS of the Dwarves, however.This is hilarious. Thank you.Spoiler: show
Aulë creates the dwarves, Ilúvatar: Eh, that's fine.
My favorite part of those two chapters were the lamps. Something that existed and passed away before any mortal being could witness it, feels very mythical.
Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief. For they say that Aule the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Iluvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aule and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle. They say also that the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves return to live again in their own kin and to bear once more their ancient names: of whom Durin was the most renowned in after ages, father of that kindred most friendly to the Elves, whose mansions were at Khazad-dum.
From tomorrow, chapters 3 and 4.The elves journey to Valinor!
Do you still like the pace? 5 + 6 have about the same page count, as do 7+8, but then 9 would be on its own. Does this work?It's fine for me.
Also, I feel more sympathetic than I perhaps should towards all the more chaotic subgroups of Elves who kept pausing whenever they saw something pretty, or wandering off, and forming subgroups which were later given less flattering names.I feel sympathy for them too. Pretty things here compared to some sort of better place far away, I think I would have stayed for a while. Evene if the things in Valinor are better the pretty things right now are still pretty. And elves do not run out of time they can just go later.
This is something I was thinking a lot about. Do elves have a different concept of later? Because if a human says I will do it later you would expect something like later the same day or in the next few days. But if two elves talk both of them thousands of years old, if one of them says later could it mean something like next century?That would make sense. Life is probably a lot less hectic for an elf than for a human.
Is anyone still reading?Yes but I am some chapters ahead. Makes it hard to discuss without spoilers.
Enter Fëanor, and many things with him. I find the eldar have too many children! If they don’t die, and everyone has three, four or seven children, there’s going to be elves everywhere! Perhaps it’s only their high and mighty who do this, but still.Even if it is just one kid per couple every 1000 years exponential growth would kick in.
Also women exist to be wives again. Shees. I know, written ages ago, but it still bothers me.Me too this it shows a mindset that in my opinon caused many bad things to individuals and society in general.
Yes but I am some chapters ahead. Makes it hard to discuss without spoilers.
I haven't seen it mentioned here yet, so I have to throw in a reccomendation of 'Nightfall in Middle-Earth' by Blind Guardian to anyone who likes rock or metal. What more could you ask for than an entire album based on The Silmarillion? :3It's pretty great. One of their best albums, if not the best. I've been listening to it more lately.
Ooh, interesting thread! I may need to catch up with the reading before making any contributions, I read The Silmarillion once but it's been a while :) I haven't seen it mentioned here yet, so I have to throw in a reccomendation of 'Nightfall in Middle-Earth' by Blind Guardian to anyone who likes rock or metal. What more could you ask for than an entire album based on The Silmarillion? Sorry if I'm interrupting, I'll come back more on topic after I've read back through up to this point :3
Practical question. In the beginning of the chapter it says something like (remember I have a translation) “and the valar were sitting in shadow, for it was night”, which is of course the case with the Trees just destroyed. But, when the noldor attack the teleri at the harbor to get the ships, it says ”swords were drawn at dawn”. What dawn? Everything was in darkness at this time, no?I believe it's called "plot holes".
For the same reason, how come they could see the dangerous ice in the Helcaraxë? It specifically says that the cold fog was not penetrated by stars. Elven eyes or not, how far can they possibly see in those conditions?
Also I had completely forgotten that Fëanor had the ships torched when Fingolfin’s people were still in the West. He’s even worse than I remembered.Yeah, Fëanor went off the deep end pretty fast.
I think it was not one single decision. There were many actions together that made things go the wrong direction.
I believe this is a good moment to ask the question that's been on my mind for a while now: what exactly did Fëanor do wrong? I mean, he did plenty of wrong obviously, but which one of his decisions was the one that tipped the scales? I don't have a definite answer myself yet, but I'd like to hear what you think.
I think it was not one single decision. There were many actions together that made things go the wrong direction.But surely there must have been that one step too far, right? The point of no return?
Why does Thingol get praised as the great and magnificent Hidden King who keeps his people protected, when it’s actually Melian’s magic that does the trick?I'd like to give you some rational and logical reason, but honestly, it's probably because of sexism.
Regarding Thingol, yes, sexism. But also, there is a bit of a tendency to describe several of the Elvish rulers as the wisest and tallest. I remember Turgon in particular. (I do not judge his wisdom highly, myself.)
Spoiler: show
Of course, 15 is actually VERY INTERESTING so surely Jitter would have mentioned many bits from it. We are about to enter a whole sequence of chapters that I, for one, enjoy!Oh yes, next week's chapters are very interesting indeed.
Oh yes, next week's chapters are very interesting indeed.
I also have a very specific headcanon (https://archiveofourown.org/works/1577822) I like, that Galadriel didn't sit around twiddling her thumbs during the First Age, but established her own Hidden Kingdom which was actually a proper secret. (Unlike the Hidden City of Gondolin, which was clearly common gossip.)That's a pretty neat idea.
[...] that she was wholly willing, but then got bored, which seems in character for her. [...]That's how I read it. Eol clearly wasn't the most pleasant person around, though.
And the Greek Tragedy/dark saga feel of the Maeglin chapter. All these people, acting according to their natures, bringing about a very dark conclusion...Maeglin wasn't as much of an a-hole as I remembered. He was still kind of an a-hole, though. I agree with the Greek tragedy comparison, it's very apt.
Hmm. Now did Quenya manage to stick around as the language of scholars when people weren't allowed to speak it? Were there no Telerin/Sindarin scholars?This is one of the things that could be interpreted in many ways. But all interpretations that come to my mind are at least a little strange in the context of the story.
I want my elves to be good and kind, not just noble. So, I was quite shaken reading this as a teenager. I’ve been low key thinking that maybe I was just too young and therefore didn’t understand it enough to appreciate it, but no. It really is that everything is terrible!In this part of a story I think tolkien was inspired by greek mythology and there are depressing standards how women are treated.
In this part of a story I think tolkien was inspired by greek mythology and there are depressing standards how women are treated.
Yeah, and surprising, considering who Caranthir is.
It’s nice to notice a fleeting mention of Caranthir being nice to the humans who passed in his lands!
I also note that humans took to speaking elven languages, I assume sindarin. This seems a bit surprising, it would make more sense to me that it’s easy for the elves to learn human languages if they want, but learning the finesse of elvish would be beyond most people’s short lifetimes. It doesn’t even say that theirs would be a simpler version!That's a weird assumption. Just because elves are long-lived doesn't mean their language has to be unnecessarily complicated.
Probably not very surprisingly, I also like Haleth. Sadly, it wasn’t possible to have a career and a family, of course! But at least she doesn’t get scorned for it, it’s only mentioned she remained unwed.Maybe she just didn't find anyone suitable for her.
Fingolfin is also a proper elf lord when he storms to the gates of Angband, despite the fact it’s the end of him (or, perhaps, even more so because of it?).Ah, yes, the most badass creature in the history of Middle-Earth. Here's a song about it:
Sory, I’m still terribly lagging! The last I’ve read is Beren and Luthien, which has some proper elf activity again, but is also quite depressing.Don't worry, I'm behind as well. I've only finished chapter 20 today, and only because it was short.
I’m (kind of) glad we are doing this together because I don’t think I would finish it if we weren’t.