Post by: wavewright62 on March 19, 2021, 09:39:41 PM
Warning
Lovely People contains very strong Christian proselytizing elements while the thread contains personal experiences with toxic Christianity which may be distressing to some.
Lovely People contains very strong Christian proselytizing elements while the thread contains personal experiences with toxic Christianity which may be distressing to some.
Sharing this link that I'm told is from Minna's instagram, for the bunny comic she's been developing over the past several months.
Lovely People (http://www.hummingfluff.com/lovelypeoplecomic.html)
Edit: that is the complete comic, and ends with Minna's commentary on its inspiration and development.
Post by: Buteo on March 19, 2021, 11:23:13 PM
Ooookay...
Best wishes to our Minna, now and always!
Post by: Groupoid on March 20, 2021, 02:24:37 AM
Edit: I wrote the above after reading the first few pages. Now I finished it. I didn't expect the direction it took. I'll comment on that another time.
Overall it was a lovely read, sometimes uncomfortable for me, lots of fun pictures and a nice script. And the topics are imho very relevant, though opinions may differ on some.
Post by: Maglor on March 20, 2021, 06:24:34 AM
Post by: moredhel on March 20, 2021, 07:38:49 AM
But as always brilliant in characterdesign and drawing.
Post by: Superdark33 on March 20, 2021, 08:25:37 AM
Holy persecution complex, batman!
Post by: Grade E cat on March 20, 2021, 01:07:47 PM
Post by: Bunnies amongst blossoms on March 20, 2021, 06:33:51 PM
Not all allegories have to be subtle but the Christian stuff was really on the nose and it didn't sit with me (the phone thing at the end felt really Boomer to me) (but then again I probably have different beliefs to Minna)
it's a shame because I agree on certain things like how corporations are having an increasing influence on stuff but then there was just so much I couldn't mesh with
The art was really cute at least, I like bunnies (but that sort of added to the disappointment because I got all hyped for a bunny comic from Minna)
My friend (an ex-Christian Fundamentalist, so probably a little biased) also wasn't fond of it but in Minna's streams/Tumblr/Instagram, I've only seen positive reactions... maybe I'm missing something?
Post by: Vulpes on March 20, 2021, 06:41:28 PM
Cute bunnies, anyway. I quite agree on the horror of social credit systems and the evil of consumerism, the rest... especially the author commentary... hum. Processing...
Post by: Lallicat on March 20, 2021, 06:56:17 PM
"Nobody will be around anymore to tell you about how you sin against God, to repent and humbly turn to Christ for forgiveness and salvation from the judgement that comes at the end of everyone's lives. That would be offensive, hurtful and harmful, and thus not allowed!"
You are absolutely allowed to have your own opinions, and you may disagree with someone, but you can't be offensive. Other people's lives are not yours to police, that is their business, not yours. Some people have different beliefs than you, and that's just something you need to respect! You can't go around telling people that they are sinners and going to hell just because they are different than you or because they have different beliefs. Outright hate is different than a civilized discussion. But I may have missed the point completely, or be seeing through my own biased lenses. What are your thoughts on this?
(I hope I don't end up sparking a fire, but as someone who isn't Christian, I would love to hear different viewpoints to make sure I see the full picture.)
Post by: Bunnies amongst blossoms on March 20, 2021, 07:31:18 PM
"If you one day find yourself in that future utopia, where your purpose of life is consuming product and entertainment or pursuing vain goals of "bettering yourself", and nobody is allowed to say or write anything "harmful" anymore , remember this: your problem is your sin against God. But He is loving and merciful, and is still gathering his lost sheep, humble yourself and repent."
the part about harmful stuff is giving me serious Boomer comedian vibes (y'know the ones who go on their netflix specials to complain about cancel culture?) Not to say CC is entirely made up, just this boomer-y version has some... inconsistencies with reality
Especially because it makes me think Minna is still reeling from... The Emil incident from a few years ago (I want to clarify she shouldn't have received threats but that did warrant some criticism in my opinion, and I have a Finnish mutual, they said the original line would still have been considered an offensive joke in Finland, if more tolerated, so it wasn't just a translation oops-y) not to reignite old discourse though, considering how recent her conversion is there's been plenty of time for her to change since that comic and I don't like trying to psychoanalyse people I don't know.
In her stream tonight, Minna says she's actually read the Bible (over the course of three months) so she's not making up her beliefs but I've also seen some Christians says that the bible isn't against self improvement...
Unfortunately I can't say one way or the other because I'm not Christian in any form (unless you count Christmas and singing songs about the Lord in Primary school assemblies)
But also she's got a study bible she plans to read so maybe her views will change? She claims to be a "recent convert and very pumped up"
Post by: Superdark33 on March 20, 2021, 08:01:35 PM
Post by: Gwenno on March 20, 2021, 08:02:55 PM
It also didn't sit well with me that there were such parallels with social media 'cancel culture' (that bird app must have represented twitter, right?), as, for the last few years, many of the people I've seen complaining about that, and the fact that they aren't allowed to say what they want, haven't so much been complaining about government censorship and surveillance, as they have been that they aren't allowed to say racist, homophobic etc. things without consequences anymore. Government censorship and surveillance is a very serious problem in many parts of the world and absolutely needs to be talked about, but it is not the same thing as losing individual followers because you said something offensive. Dunno, I guess combining them this way felt to me like trying to make getting 'cancelled' as much of an issue as actual authoritarian governments controlling their citizens. This may not be what Minna was going for, and I agree with Bunnies that the Emil incident probably influenced her feelings on cancel culture, but it still felt very uncomfortable to read. Anyway, I might be reading into this too much, but I am bone tired of telling people not to insult my friends and family (as well as all POC and LGBT+ people obvz) only to have them complain about how attacked they are, and reading this is just making me more tired.
Post by: lwise on March 20, 2021, 10:07:44 PM
According to the Chinese government's 2015 Plan for Implementation, the Social Credit System is due to be fully implemented by 2020. Once implemented the system will manage the rewards, or punishments, of citizens on the basis of their economic and personal behavior. Some types of punishments for poor social credit include: flight ban, exclusion from private schools, slow internet connection, exclusion from high prestige work, exclusion from hotels, and registration on a public blacklist. While some rewards for good social credit include discounts on energy bills, being able to rent bikes and hotel hotels without payment of a deposit, and better interest rates at banks.
That's exactly the sort of thing the comic depicts. Does it use a Twitter-analogue? Well, yes. Easily recognizable to the reader, that's all.
Post by: wavewright62 on March 20, 2021, 11:18:29 PM
Spoiler: salt • show
Post by: Annuil on March 20, 2021, 11:50:42 PM
Never mind, I’m just too excited even though I see people not liking it... well, I need to read it myself ;)
I will post something here once I do that :reynir:
Post by: Keep Looking on March 21, 2021, 12:44:21 AM
Like, I think it's a healthy thing to identify the flaws in your culture, and think about how you can live out your beliefs and love others within the context that you're in without forfeiting the things you stand for, but the idea that modern culture and technology is always evil or out to get you just isn't healthy. Then again, as others here have said, this attitude does seem to link in to Minna's overly defensive attitude towards criticism, as seen in the Emil/China incident back in Adventure 1.
Post by: thorny on March 21, 2021, 01:47:05 AM
What, I wonder, is Minna going to do with all her pagan characters in SSSS?
I do really like this community. And I do really like the comic -- or at least I have been, who knows where it's going now. But I don't know that I want to hang around with Minna any longer.
Post by: thorny on March 21, 2021, 01:51:44 AM
But it isn't even much of an exaggeration of China's Social Credit System.
The problem isn't with the depiction of the Social Credit System (though conflating it with having to show proof of not being infected in order to get on a crowded plane is conspiracy theory territory). It's with positing the only possible other choice as the sort of Christianity which claims that Christianity is the only moral possibility.
Post by: JoB on March 21, 2021, 03:55:37 AM
Not to come across as too negative, but I really didn't like this comic a lot.I'm still trying to pinpoint what the exact message Minna wanted to send with that is. I see a number of possibilities for the time being, and yes, some of those brush me in a very wrong way ...
Not all allegories have to be subtle but the Christian stuff was really on the nose and it didn't sit with me
the author's note didn't sit well with me, especially this sentence.As Bunnies already pointed out, that's Minnas prediction for what it'll be like in a world that has fully gone "we at Alizongle and World Council do not want you to point out flaws in our society, or its individual members unless we reviewed and acknowledged them as a Bad Person™".
but I've also seen some Christians says that the bible isn't against self improvement...A religion that opposes "self improvement" but simultaneously wants people to convert to it because that's "better" for you would be a joke. However, Christians have had a time where their definition of "self improvement" boiled down to "this world is a lost cause anyway, you need to focus on your afterlife", which would invalidate all attempts at "self improvement" in a secular sense. As far as I know, that strict "vale of tears" interpretation is absent from all major versions of Christianism today.
By the way, that interpretation does have a historic connection to the "light at the end of the tunnel" symbolism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascent_of_the_Blessed), so I am wondering what might have given rise to the half-overgrown ventilation shafts at the end of the comic. Certainly Minna doesn't mean to imply that one can physically walk away from a pervasive control freak society to a Shangri La that the Big Bad cannot possibly follow you to ...
actually it depicts an "if this goes on" dystopia, so it is naturally an exaggeration. But it isn't even much of an exaggeration of China's Social Credit System. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System .+1 to that. And I'd add that if left to their own devices, the big data miners of the West would establish a system that's not very far from it, either. They wouldn't claim to be running a proper society or nation, just an ever-tighter ship on their company and its customers, but that's not much of a difference if you look at a de facto monopoly.
What, I wonder, is Minna going to do with all her pagan characters in SSSS?She already had a Danish Lutheran pastor perform an exorcism that their own efforts pretty much pale against ...
The problem isn't with the depiction of the Social Credit System (though conflating it with having to show proof of not being infected in order to get on a crowded plane is conspiracy theory territory). It's with positing the only possible other choice as the sort of Christianity which claims that Christianity is the only moral possibility.That's one of the troubling possibilities I mentioned above. In the comic, The Holy Bible (1.0) seems to have appeared out of nowhere in people's bookcases (physical and virtual); no indication of ancestors passing it on as a heirloom, preachers (or the Gideons) handing out copies, discussions of how (a-bit-less-than-)true it is to the original divine intent (apart from the one toot where a bunny opposed 2.0 with the argument that the Word of God ought to be immutable), all those opportunities where in the real world, people get told that the official gospel trumps their own attempts at interpretation. The Bible, at least when someone holds it up ready-made to the crowd in RL like Minna does with this comic and the closing remarks, is very much not a living antithesis to "we at Alizongle tell you what a good person should be thinking".
Post by: Superdark33 on March 21, 2021, 04:10:35 AM
The persecution complex comes from making the dichotomy where you either serve God (and thus are automatically good and correct and pure), or serve the evil bad shallow fake unpure iphone china amazon.
No room for anything else, no other options.
People disagreeing with her on any subject are basically Jesus Haters who are Evil.
Yes Minna. It IS offensive to go around telling people theyre going to hell for living their life in this Society.
Complaining about toxic positivity not lallowing people to hear dissent and the smothering herself with loving comments.
Post by: LilG on March 21, 2021, 04:14:04 AM
She already had a Danish Lutheran pastor perform an exorcism that their own efforts pretty much pale against ...
To address this:
During this week’s stream she said that the pastor Anne stuff was done when she was still an atheist. It was just another mythological religion to her at the time she wrote it, nothing more.
She’s been a devout Christian only for a year and a half - two years, from what I heard her also say during the stream, which still places her conversion a while after the conclusion of the first adventure
Post by: JoB on March 21, 2021, 04:30:04 AM
To address this:I suspected that much, seeing that she probably wouldn't have put a member of the Danish folkekirken (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Denmark) as a representative of her own Christian belief, but if she wants to reshape SSSS to match her new conviction, having the team discover similar remnants of Christianism elsewhere which then proceed to cleanse the world - Known as well as Silent - once and for all would be what I'd expect to happen.
During this week’s stream she said that the pastor Anne stuff was done when she was still an atheist. It was just another mythological religion to her at the time she wrote it, nothing more.
Post by: Grade E cat on March 21, 2021, 04:52:55 AM
I'd say the story worked for me up to the point when it started clearly promoting Christianity as the only right way and scoffing at the idea of adapting it to the times. I'm saying that as an agnostic who's still treating Christianity as the "default" religion on some level because of the environment she lives in. On the other hand, whether I agree with the politics of a story usually factors quite little in my enjoyment, so the comic still rates as readable in my book.
Post by: Róisín on March 21, 2021, 04:54:13 AM
That system of forcible conversion didn’t work too well in the long term for the Inquisition, and hopefully will not work in the modern world, where there are at least some laws that address freedom of religion. I really think that Minna is too civilised a person to be vicious about this, and I hope that her conversion does not spark acrimony among the fans. Let us leave Minna to explore her new faith in peace, and I am curious to see if and how her work is affected.
Post by: Kis on March 21, 2021, 06:57:30 AM
I just really hope Minna won't channel these, um, notions into SSSS. Of course everyone has the right to have their own opinions and beliefs, but I agree that quite a lot of Minna's statements are, well.. yeah. O_o
Post by: Lenny on March 21, 2021, 07:04:17 AM
This comic... reminded me of all the dusty books on the shelf in my Christian primary school, the almost abandoned children's Sunday school rooms in various churches I went to, and the books old women donated to my mother for us children to read.
AKA, let's take a common trope and Christianize it, and ignore any other viewpoint other than Christian. Even as a small child that felt laughable and I mostly read them as a thing to laugh at a bit while enjoying the few good points hidden beneath it, that I later discovered were explored far better in other literature.
This comic isn't real. It doesn't explore anything new. It tries to evangelize by hitting you on top of the head with a book (protip: telling people they're damned by a god they don't believe in because they're inherently bad/selfish doesn't really work - even as a Christian that drives me away), and from reading the author's notes is originating from a distrust in COVID regulations as well as her own experience of being called out online, which sits with me even less well. It has a few good, interesting points, and I can see people reading it without much issue, looking past the evangelizing and limited viewpoint like I did with those musty old Christian stories as a child. But it has a naive view of Christianity, a naive view of cancel culture, and it takes no interesting direction with any of the tropes it uses. It doesn't even explore why the faith in Christianity is worth keeping, other than kinda equating it with critique on the system as a whole. And it doesn't explore any of the potential damage Christianity can do, which is so important when so many people both inside and outside of it have been damaged by it. You can't just hand-wave the hurt away and claim to be a victim only.
And simultaneously, along with the author's notes, it feels incredibly judgemental and isolationist. Very "I am saying that I'm not smart and not an authority on this, but I'm correct anyway and judging you". It's merging Christianity and a personal bugbear.
I dunno. If you want to read a good comic that explores religion, go read something like Suihira: The City of Water (https://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/suihira-the-city-of-water/list?title_no=39385&page=1), or Daughter of the Lilies (https://www.daughterofthelilies.com/). This one rubs me the wrong way completely.
It's also probably going to be the last time I read a comic by Minna, unless it's obvious to me that she's grown somewhat. Due to my personal history, I get affected badly by stuff like this. It's like reading a story as an abuse survivor that deals with an abusive relationship written by someone who's never been in one, and who hasn't talked to anyone who has, and is trying to sell the idea that all relationships are always good - and therefore, my experience is invalid. She is entitled to her own journey, and I hope she does well on it and grows as a person, but where she is right now is not somewhere I can join her.
Post by: Bunnies amongst blossoms on March 21, 2021, 07:25:37 AM
She also says she was entirely atheist when she wrote the pastor Anne arc and was treating Christianity as any other mythology, so if anything it's unlikely we'll be seeing a Pastor Anne 2: the Christening any time soon.
That being said, she seemed dismissive (or at least ignorant) of the idea that any significant group of people genuinely believed in Nordic (especially Finnish) pagan beliefs because she thought they were quite unrealistic stories.
She went as far as to compare the temple of Asas in Iceland to Jedi churches in Australia (as in just a bunch of people in a culture hanging out together under the guise of a religion they don't believe in)
I want to stress I'm not an expert/part of these places, but I've heard other people say that whilst small, there are actually people who legitimately practice these pagan religions seriously, but also for all I know it could be literally 5 people in the Finnish wilderness somewhere, I certainly hadn't heard of them before the stream.
Post by: Bunnies amongst blossoms on March 21, 2021, 07:35:17 AM
In terms of good Christian comic recommendations, I can't vouch for it personally, but I'm in a server with someone who really likes this graphic novel called "Judas" by Jeff Loveness and Jakub Rebelka (I think it's Christian from how they've described it and apparently it's got really good art)
Post by: Keep Looking on March 21, 2021, 07:50:56 AM
Also, I want to say that I really admire your choice to reconcile with Christianity despite everything that happened to you - that's not a place I've reached myself, and I don't know if it's a place I'll ever reach, but it's something that a part of me definitely aches for. I dunno. It's complicated.
Post by: Róisín on March 21, 2021, 08:05:24 AM
I have been fortunate that my experiences with Christianity have been nowhere near as bad as yours, but I have known many people whose experiences have been as bad as yours or maybe worse, including children who have suffered both physical and sexual abuse at the hands of Christian parents or authority figures, while said parents, priests and the like presented their abuses as a necessary part of asserting their patriarchal authority. On the other hand I have known Christians whose emphasis was on serving their God and caring for their fellow man, and who, when they made converts, made them through kindness, the depth and example of their own faith, and of their service to their fellow humans and willingness to listen and discuss their beliefs rather than by pontificating their One True Way.
And in answer to the comment about minority faiths: there are many kinds of Pagans in the world, some who just never went away from back in the old times, some who have rediscovered the old faiths and found that this spirituality answers their own (the collective term for those tends to be Neopagans), some who have come at pagan belief from a philosophical viewpoint, and some who have lived a Pagan life without knowing that there was a word for it. Remember that originally the word ‘pagan’ came from the same word as the English ‘peasant’ and the Italian ‘paysan’ or ‘paisan’, and the French ‘pays’ as in ‘vin de pays’; words meaning ‘of or from the country’, making the distinction between ‘pagani’ and ‘urbani’, country folk and city folk. Pagans were the people with a direct connection to the land. While we are certainly a minority, we are not just a small number of loons in a forest somewhere. Perhaps a little research is in order? Also, Jedi church in Australia? I live here and had not heard of that, but then I am in the country and it may be a city thing? Puzzled!
I am more impressed by the Christianity of the New Testament than that of the Old, the New Testament being, if I understand correctly, a revelation and reformation brought by the Christ himself and promulgated by his direct disciples. For myself, my own experience of a Christian stepmother being certain she could convert the largely Pagan family into which she had married once she told us the One True Way was distasteful, unpleasant and embarrassing, but all parties did survive and eventually achieved a workable compromise. She lived to a remarkable old age, and grew to be somebody we respected and whom some of us both liked and loved.
Post by: Groupoid on March 21, 2021, 08:40:42 AM
If in the comic the bible would be substituted with something other, like Kant’s „Beantwortung der Frage: Was ist Aufklärung?“ or something like “Fahrenheit 451” or Orwell’s books (I don’t know examples that I think really fit), the plot would still work. We still would have a story about caring for the people you love (I very much liked the white business hare trying to understand his wife by reading about what’s important to her), and how a social credit system creates a ton of social pressure.
I wonder what community was created by the people that fled, because they surely aren’t all christian. Or even, if there’s a place the can flee to and they aren’t just killed by the government, to help keep up the façade.
Minna’s comment has some very off-putting undertones. I don’t like how she makes unconstrained statements and think such statements pretty much only lead to harm. I mean that she just forces the reader to believe that her god is real, everyone should repent etc. Pretty much the quotes Lallicat (https://ssssforum.com/index.php?topic=1169.msg179057#msg179057) and Bunnies amongst blossoms (https://ssssforum.com/index.php?topic=1169.msg179059#msg179059) already discussed.
Post by: Mirasol on March 21, 2021, 09:18:58 AM
I agree, plotwise and characterwise it wasn´t really a bad comic. I liked that all the characters genuinly cared about each other. There´s also quite a few stories featuring a system like this. (I thought of "the Circle". One of its key-sentences, "Sharing is Caring" was used in Minna´s comic too, though not sure whether deliberatly as a reference to this book.) It is a system that is sadly reality in a part of our world, and it´s not wrong to adress it. But I too had quite a problem with the implications that Christianity is the only right way of salvation and the entire end-card, really.
Interesting idea. From my point of view, religious faith is a private matter between the individual person/soul and their god or gods, and not really my business except insofar as it directly affects my interaction with that person. I am happy in my own faith, and not concerned about what other people believe so long as they are courteous and do not try to forcibly convert me ‘for my own good’. I promise not to plant trees in their cathedrals, and hope to receive the same courtesy.
That system of forcible conversion didn’t work too well in the long term for the Inquisition, and hopefully will not work in the modern world, where there are at least some laws that address freedom of religion. I really think that Minna is too civilised a person to be vicious about this, and I hope that her conversion does not spark acrimony among the fans. Let us leave Minna to explore her new faith in peace, and I am curious to see if and how her work is affected.
I have a similar approach to it as you do Róisín. It´s a personal matter. I am a Christian (and luckily never had any really negative experiences with it, I´m really sorry for those of you who have!), but "lovely people" did give me "Jesus is the only way to god, stupid, I don´t need to see other religions as valid"-vibes, especially in the Bible 2.0-segment, which really bothered me. Continuing to read from then on just made me more and more uncompfortable. And the end-card then destroyed any room left for a more positive interpretation. Like Lenny and Keep Looking already pointed out, I also don´t enjoy getting the religious message whacked in my face, especially when it´s one that seemingly automatically dooms everyone with different beliefs, which is simply rude and offensive. And it´s not like not doing that would somehow mean you can´t live out your faith "correctly" anymore. just that you don´t need to put your nose into everyone elses. Religious freedom is a human right for a good reason.
I was bothered by the "not being allowed to say anything "harmful""-bit too. In my opinion it´s great our current society makes efforts to change our past harmful-behaviors, also with offensive jokes and so on. The idea isn´t to "restrict" us, but to make it possiblle to coexist peacefully and equal.
So yeah, basically I agree with most of the points you already made here.
The end-card also kind of entered conspiracy-theory-territory for me, with the suspection that immunity-passes would be possibly used for other things than health in the future. (The best part is, doesn´t SSSS include immunity in their passports? And clearly didn´t spiral into a social-credit-system?)
Honestly, I´m still not absolutely sure how to feel about this and what to do now, but yeah.
I also hope SSSS won´t be affected by this...
Post by: lwise on March 21, 2021, 09:53:34 AM
Well, yeah, but in SSSS they are dealing with a disease that is lethal to every non-immune who gets it, if they don't turn into a ravening monster that tries to kill everyone around them. Covid-19 isn't that. Ebola isn't even that, lethal as it is. SSSS is a bit different situation.
And clearly didn´t spiral into a social-credit-system?
For at least a generation they lived on the brink of extinction (famines killed half the population of Iceland, which was the least impacted by the Rash). When a large part of your population is fighting monsters just to keep you from being exterminated, big government policing of everyone's behavior is likely not a high priority, although outside of Iceland, most people live in small towns or villages, and there would be social pressure to be "good".
Post by: Vulpes on March 21, 2021, 09:58:06 AM
I don't subscribe to the old notion that for social peace you should never discuss money, sex, or religion; you can talk about anything, so long as you do it with an open mind and a willingness to shut up if someone says they're unhappy with the conversation. But in Minna's comments I see a very closed mind - it's her way or the highway. It reminds me of the neighbour kid when I was a pre-schooler. He had a slightly odd interpretation of whatever flavour of religion his family followed, and told me that Jesus was going to flood the world and only he and his best friend (who wasn't me, I was just the kid next door and thus convenient) were going to survive. This upset me - I tended to believe whatever I was told at that age, and he was a couple years older and therefore An Authority - and I tearfully asked my mother if it was true. She went ballistic, which was impressive as she was one of the most calm and patient people I can think of. She stomped next door and gave the kid's mum an earful, told her that her son had better keep his hateful ideas to himself. Reading Minna's comments, I hear echoes of the neighbour boy.
This all makes me a little sad. I don't need to agree with or like an author to appreciate their work, but like many here I really hope that these ideas won't seep into SSSS. I also note that she's dropping CoH, which makes me wonder if she will also abandon SSSS if she finds another way to keep the lights on and food on the table. I also feel a little like this was a "bait-and-switch"; you see cute bunnies and figure it's some lightness to balance the horror elements of SSSS. Grade E Cat, you saw the clues and were braced for it - well done.
I'll keep following SSSS, but only as long as I can set aside the author's personal beliefs and focus on an interesting story, well told. I hope that her current preachiness is in part due to her recent conversion, she will moderate her views, and that SSSS won't become a vehicle for evangelizing.
Post by: Grade E cat on March 21, 2021, 10:28:32 AM
Post by: Yuuago on March 21, 2021, 11:02:34 AM
I was bothered by the "not being allowed to say anything "harmful""-bit too. In my opinion it´s great our current society makes efforts to change our past harmful-behaviors, also with offensive jokes and so on. The idea isn´t to "restrict" us, but to make it possiblle to coexist peacefully and equal.
The "not allowed to say anything 'harmful'" bit really stuck out to me too. It illustrates a problem that I unfortunately encounter a lot in offline life: conflating authoritarian restrictions with ordinary social response.
Being unable to legally express yourself is one thing. It's another thing entirely when people (your friends, your family, or the audience for your creative work) hear what you say, and think that what you say is unreasonable or ignorant or offensive in some way, and tell you that. They're well within their rights to do that, and as well as saying "If you don't stop doing X/change Y thing, I don't want to read your work/hang out with you/etc".
It's an important distinction. And while the on-panel material discusses government censorship, her endnote discussion conflates it with social response in a way that I find very distasteful.
Post by: Superdark33 on March 21, 2021, 11:12:42 AM
The entire way the rash works in SSSS or that it originated in immigrants that arrived to spain or that the only people who survived it are traditional rural folk with cities being destroyed (Specifically Tampere getting mentioned as one being burnt down to the ground), the way the society works in lovely people and its values being stated as in opposition to christianity...
All written by the same person with the same views.
Post by: lwise on March 21, 2021, 11:28:59 AM
Being unable to legally express yourself is one thing. It's another thing entirely when people (your friends, your family, or the audience for your creative work) hear what you say, and think that what you say is unreasonable or ignorant or offensive in some way, and tell you that. They're well within their rights to do that, and as well as saying "If you don't stop doing X/change Y thing, I don't want to read your work/hang out with you/etc".
It's an important distinction. And while the on-panel material discusses government censorship, her endnote discussion conflates it with social response in a way that I find very distasteful.
But being unable to legally express yourself is exactly what she was talking about in that passage.
Quote
If you one day find yourself in that future utopia ...
The future "utopia" is the "if this goes on" dystopia where the government listens to your every word and punishes you for wrong-think.
I note that in the comic no one is punished for any "harmful" speech except against the World Council. Even when Lavender decides to tank her credit score, she says nothing offensive against any person or group, except the World Council. When Peony snaps, she is unpersoned because she criticized the World Council. As for the Bible-reading, in recent totalitarian countries, reading the Bible is or was a subversive act. See China today or the USSR back in the day. In fact, reading the Bible for yourself was a big deal when the printing press was introduced, because it undermined the power of the clergy.
Post by: Yuuago on March 21, 2021, 11:32:18 AM
But being unable to legally express yourself is exactly what she was talking about in that passage.
There is also this:
Quote
Nobody will be around anymore to tell you about how you sin against God, to repent and humbly turn to Christ for forgiveness and salvation from the judgement that comes at the end of everyone's lives. That would be offensive, hurtful and harmful, and thus not allowed!
Take that as you like, but there is no charitable way I can read that.
Post by: lwise on March 21, 2021, 11:56:23 AM
QuoteNobody will be around anymore to tell you about how you sin against God, to repent and humbly turn to Christ for forgiveness and salvation from the judgement that comes at the end of everyone's lives. That would be offensive, hurtful and harmful, and thus not allowed!
Take that as you like, but there is no charitable way I can read that.
But isn't that exactly what people are saying in this thread? That Minna should not say that we are sinners and should repent, and so on, because it's hurtful and offensive?
I am not a believer, but I have friends and family who are, and I believe that I understand some of how they see things (not all -- I don't really understand faith). They see everyone -- you, me, themselves -- as sinners in grave danger. It's kind of as if they are walking in the fog on what they know to be a crumbling cliff edge, and they see other people running and dancing and generally having no idea how much danger they're in. So they feel a need -- a real need just because they're good people -- to warn people. To try to get them to slow down, to watch their feet, to stay back from the edge even if they can't see it.
Okay, I'm not a believer and neither are, I think, most people commenting here. But because I do believe in religious freedom, I don't think that Minna should be condemned for warning people to stay away from the danger which she sincerely perceives, even if we don't perceive it as she does.
Post by: Yuuago on March 21, 2021, 12:14:29 PM
Yes, many people here are saying that Sundberg should not say those things.
This is a social response. Not an authoritative response. Nobody here can force her not to say those things. Saying "What you say is rude and offensive and if this is how you feel then I don't want to read your comic any more" is not literally repressing her from saying anything.
She can believe whatever she pleases, but that doesn't mean people can't also respond to what she's saying.
Post by: Grade E cat on March 21, 2021, 12:34:13 PM
I am not a believer, but I have friends and family who are, and I believe that I understand some of how they see things (not all -- I don't really understand faith). They see everyone -- you, me, themselves -- as sinners in grave danger. It's kind of as if they are walking in the fog on what they know to be a crumbling cliff edge, and they see other people running and dancing and generally having no idea how much danger they're in. So they feel a need -- a real need just because they're good people -- to warn people. To try to get them to slow down, to watch their feet, to stay back from the edge even if they can't see it.
Okay, I'm not a believer and neither are, I think, most people commenting here. But because I do believe in religious freedom, I don't think that Minna should be condemned for warning people to stay away from the danger which she sincerely perceives, even if we don't perceive it as she does.
Wanting to protect people from danger, does, indeed, come from a good place.
However, things are much more complicated when the protector is the only one perceiving the danger. Just to give an example, many abusive situations basically masquerade as the abuser wanting to protect the victim of a danger that may actually exist, exist but be greatly exaggerated or not exist at all. If you don't have much life experience (which can honestly happen regardless of one's age depending on the social environment), it can be near-impossible to tell between legitimate danger you're just not noticing and a danger that's just plain being made up by someone else with the sole pupose of gaining some control on you. (As one may guess, many conspiracy theories rely on the fact that the second possibility isn't always completely absent) If someone has been in a relationship in which they were being controlled by those means, they may get jittery about people they meet later using a variant of the "the world is a dangerous place, I'll protect you from it" discourse, even if the person is doing it from a genuinely kinhearted place and the danger is sincerely perceived. From my point of view, a lot of behavior that is actually harmful to its target is currently being sold as "things [insert quality here] people do/say", and because of it, the knee-jerk reaction to a negative response is assuming that the target is the one not responding properly.
Post by: Róisín on March 21, 2021, 12:41:20 PM
I’m sure that this is a matter where it is hard or impossible to arrive at an answer that suits everyone involved. Hence the importance of courtesy, patience and sincere discussion of the topic in any resolution. And GradeECat, you make very good points, because so much fundamentalist dominance is masked as genuine concern that it is easy to see what may be genuine concern as something nastier.
Post by: thorny on March 21, 2021, 12:52:19 PM
I'm still trying to pinpoint what the exact message Minna wanted to send with that is.
She tells you straight out in the text at the end of the comic.
She already had a Danish Lutheran pastor perform an exorcism that their own efforts pretty much pale against ...
The way I read that (and the way Minna may well have meant it at the time) was that the pastor was able to show those particular souls the way home because they were Christian souls. Onni couldn't help them because he didn't know anything about where they needed to go. Pastor Anne likewise couldn't have helped pagan souls go where they needed to go.
There's a panel in which it's clear that Anne isn't going to make any attempt to convert Onni and Reynir. She says she's forgotten what she was supposed to do about that. Clearly converting others wasn't an essential part of her Christian faith, as she must still have all the essential parts of that faith in order to be able to resist the mental effects of trollification and to help the souls of those who were given the serum.
Minna may well not have thought any of that through, of course.
The Bible, at least when someone holds it up ready-made to the crowd in RL like Minna does with this comic and the closing remarks, is very much not a living antithesis to "we at Alizongle tell you what a good person should be thinking".
Exactly. It's only 'we who are holding this Bible will tell you what a good person should be thinking!' That isn't any different.
-- OK, apologies [ETA: this was in advance, and see note at beginning of next post] for multiposting, but I don't see any other way to do it on these boards; I'm only seeing the option to "insert quote" for the most recent few posts, and I want to respond to some in the middle.
Post by: lwise on March 21, 2021, 12:55:57 PM
I think it's possible that we're interpreting "not allowed" differently.
I think that's true. Minna said if you someday find yourself in such a "utopia", people may not be legally allowed to speak of Christianity, not that that is true now. Plainly it is not, or this site would have been shut down. Totalitarian governments don't seem to like Christianity (see China and USSR), and so if a government sets up such a social-credit-system, it is not unreasonable to suppose that such a government -- for practical purposes totalitarian, whatever it calls itself -- would legally silence Christians.
But I also don’t think she is entitled to tell others what to believe ...
She is entitled on her own site, which this is. Whether people accept it -- and clearly many do not -- is up to them.
Post by: moredhel on March 21, 2021, 01:29:00 PM
Totalitarian governments don't seem to like Christianity (see China and USSR)That was not true in every case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francoist_Spain#Roman_Catholicism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francoist_Spain#Roman_Catholicism) were very catholic governments.
Post by: Yuuago on March 21, 2021, 01:34:20 PM
I think that's true. Minna said if you someday find yourself in such a "utopia", people may not be legally allowed to speak of Christianity, not that that is true now.
I think that's where we're getting hung up. You're talking about the content of the comic. I am not. That is not the issue here. (I agree that totalitarianism is bad. I hope I did not give the impression that I think it is a good thing.)
What I am saying: If she actually thinks that we are all sinners who should humbly turn ourselves to Christ, as she states in the endnotes, then that is indeed hurtful and offensive to many of her fans/former fans. She's entitled to think that, and her audience is entitled to be repulsed by her views and say "you shouldn't say things like that".
Post by: thorny on March 21, 2021, 01:35:30 PM
All of that not to mention the "World Concuil that controlls everything and everyone and hates christians" being a very old antisemitic trope, and the mockery of "inclusivity" with the segment explaining "Bible 2", especially the bit with mocking gender neutrality on there.
The persecution complex comes from making the dichotomy where you either serve God (and thus are automatically good and correct and pure), or serve the evil bad shallow fake unpure iphone china amazon.
No room for anything else, no other options.
People disagreeing with her on any subject are basically Jesus Haters who are Evil.
Yes Minna. It IS offensive to go around telling people theyre going to hell for living their life in this Society.
This. Very much this.
And that's true whatever society we're talking about, if you're telling them not only that there's something wrong with that society, but that you have the Only Possible Moral Option.
She’s been a devout Christian only for a year and a half - two years, from what I heard her also say during the stream, which still places her conversion a while after the conclusion of the first adventure
According to the text at the bottom of the page, a lot less than that. About a year for some sort of Christianity, but only a few months for the current version:
Quote
A little over a year ago I started feeling a pull to belive in God, Jesus, and I hestitantly started calling myself a Christian. But really I wasn't, I didn't even know what Christians believe. [ . . .] \ and then, in late autumn of 2020, repentance and forgiveness throught his son Jesus Christ.
I I hope that her conversion does not spark acrimony among the fans. Let us leave Minna to explore her new faith in peace
She doesn't seem willing to leave others to explore their faiths, new or otherwise.
It's hard not to feel some acrimony when being attacked.
I've got no problem whatsoever with Christians who don't do that. I've also known some truly excellent people who are Christians. They just don't have an exclusive hold on being excellent people.
I wonder what community was created by the people that fled, because they surely aren’t all christian.
I suspect that in Minna's head they are indeed all Christian, or else will shortly become so. Because that's the only alternative she's presenting. Worship the Corporation, or worship the Jesus: she's not seeing anything else.
Yes, many people here are saying that Sundberg should not say those things.
This is a social response. Not an authoritative response. Nobody here can force her not to say those things. Saying "What you say is rude and offensive and if this is how you feel then I don't want to read your comic any more" is not literally repressing her from saying anything.
This.
She should be legally allowed to say that I'm a terrible sinner and am going to go to Hell. But I should be in no way required to stand there and listen to it. And people are allowed to respond, even if it's to say that no, she's the one who's being a terrible sinner. Why should it be OK for her to say we're wrong but not OK for anyone to say she's wrong?
I suspect that I'm going to hang on to the end of this particular story arc, out of curiosity, but staying out of the undoubtedly-censored Discus; drop the comic thereafter, even if Minna doesn't; not read anything else she produces; but possibly pop in here once in a while to see how people I've come to care about are doing.
if a government sets up such a social-credit-system, it is not unreasonable to suppose that such a government -- for practical purposes totalitarian, whatever it calls itself -- would legally silence Christians.
And a whole lot of other people, of other religions and atheist. Totalitarians don't only want to silence Christians. Sometimes, of course, as Iwise points out, they claim to be Christians.
Post by: Superdark33 on March 21, 2021, 02:03:44 PM
And a whole lot of other people, of other religions and atheist. Totalitarians don't only want to silence Christians. Sometimes, of course, as Iwise points out, they claim to be Christians.
Its always extra rich to me to see the flavors of christianity that pretty much ruled the world for the last few hundrad years complain about being "Persecuted", writing stories about how Being A Christian Is Forbidden and give as examples the facts that they cant scream at people that they are inferior anymore, while i dont need to bring up much to talk about what my people gone through to overshadow that by a large margain.
What they describe as oppression basically amounts to complaining they cant oppress me anymore.
Post by: JoB on March 21, 2021, 02:07:54 PM
She tells you straight out in the text at the end of the comic.That text is prefixed with the words
Quote
Thanks for reading my comic to the end! Hopefully you got something out of it. I wrote some paragraphs about my motivations behind making this comic, you can read them below if you're interested, but it's not necessary.It then describes how she found herself swept away with her religious epiphany, and goes on to theorize how we're headed for an Alizonciety because "we" welcome it as an utopia and fail to see the sinfulness of all human life. Technically she's not even trying to proselytize anyone with that (remember what I wrote about the former Christian "this world is a lost cause, anyway" stance?), and since I neither believe us (Westerners) to be on that steep a descent nor am anywhere near welcoming it if we turn out to be, I'm not reading anything on the "you have been messaged subliminally" scale, either. Somewhat talked down to, sure, but that's nothing I'm not able to just shrug off. Especially when I strongly suspect that the other guy's aiming way too high with his prophecy.
-- OK, apologies for multiposting, but I don't see any other way to do it on these boards; I'm only seeing the option to "insert quote" for the most recent few posts, and I want to respond to some in the middle.Are you on a phone, or a PC? If the latter, you can open the "Quote" link above every post you want to address in a new window/tab and copy-paste all the text snippets into a single post-to-be editing form.
I suspect that in Minna's head they are indeed all Christian, or else will shortly become so. Because that's the only alternative she's presenting.Considering the penultimate, black and white panel where we're suddenly looking up a hill with a radiant cross on it, while the bunnies are forging ahead on a path through a somewhat more lush wilderness in the adjacent panels above and below, that's what I feel being suggested, too.
Post by: lwise on March 21, 2021, 02:20:31 PM
... I'm not reading anything on the "you have been messaged subliminally" scale, either. Somewhat talked down to, sure, but that's nothing I'm not able to just shrug off.
That's pretty much my reaction. Growing up I basically despised Christians because of the way I was treated. Maybe I hang out with nicer people these days, but the Christians I know include my best friends and other people that I genuinely respect. It's a little disconcerting for me when someone starts talking heart-felt about their beliefs, as Minna did, but I look at it as an aspect of their life that I don't want to explore, withdraw a little until they stop, and I just go on. They are not the abusive people that I had the misfortune to know.
Post by: moredhel on March 21, 2021, 03:12:02 PM
I suspect that in Minna's head they are indeed all Christian, or else will shortly become so. Because that's the only alternative she's presenting. Worship the Corporation, or worship the Jesus: she's not seeing anything else.
I am not sure if it is about presenting alternatives. It could be the other way around.
Speculation:
Minna found a Religios praxis that makes her happy. Although I think Christianity is a way to see the world which gives me a whole range of uncomfortable and fearful feelings, many people are happy with it. If I assume Minna is happy with her christian faith, and it is something important for her, it is not unusual she wants to talk about it. As anybody can see in the forum people want to talk of their Moments of happiness.
As a webcomic author she made a Comic about it. Maybe she wantet just to say: "I found a religion that makes me feel nice and the normal day to day problems feel less relevant now." That would make a not very interesting comic because of a lack of story. So what to do if you want to make it more interesting? Exaggerate the day to day problems until a story emerges.
So maybe she did not want to tell us believe or go to hell, but just I found religion and it gives me the confidence to happily go to wherever the future takes me. That would fit the end of the comic the bunnies go confidently to wherever, the point is they do not go directly to heaven, they go to an unknown future. So no magical total salvation, just bunnies doing what they think is the best thing to do. We do not know if they are sucessfull, we do not know if they survive. We saw no salvation or something.
I do prefer the interpretation, that minna just wanted to tell everyone that she feels happy ond confident and it feels easier for her to get things done.
Post by: viola on March 21, 2021, 03:16:53 PM
She is entitled on her own site, which this is. Whether people accept it -- and clearly many do not -- is up to them.
Just for quick clarification, Minna doesn't actually own this site. The forum is independent, started, owned, hosted, and run by volunteers. She links us to her website, but we don't get any money or perks or anything from her, and she has no moderation or control over how we run the site.
Post by: thorny on March 21, 2021, 03:48:37 PM
That text is prefixed with the words [ . . ]Technically[/i] she's not even trying to proselytize anyone with that [ . . . ] Somewhat talked down to, sure, but that's nothing I'm not able to just shrug off.
And it ends with these words:
Quote
remember this: your problem is your sin against God. But He is loving and merciful, and is still gathering his lost sheep, humble yourself and repent.
Some of us, I'm sure, find this sort of thing easier to shrug off than others. Maybe we've been reading different chunks of history.
Are you on a phone, or a PC? If the latter, you can open the "Quote" link above every post you want to address in a new window/tab and copy-paste all the text snippets into a single post-to-be editing form.
Yup, that'll work too. Thanks. It's actually easier for me to copy over into a text document, though; same amount of copy-pasting (except for once at the end to get it back into a reply window) and I can see a lot more text at the same time.
Post by: Róisín on March 21, 2021, 04:41:20 PM
A friend who occasionally reads the comic was also horrified. He is an elderly man of the Kurnai people of Victoria, and his mother was a survivor of the Stolen Generations. That is, an Aboriginal woman who as a child was taken from her family, forcibly converted and for practical purposes enslaved to a white Christian family. That happened more than most people know about, but the historical records still exist for many of the cases, though there were many more instances where it happened unofficially, and the survivors of those actions are still trying to find their surviving families, if any. He recognises that rhetoric about forcing people for their own good, as do I, and hopes that the events that shattered his own family do not happen again.
Sadly, many of these ‘oppressed’ Christians simply want to regain the right to oppress the rest of us. ‘For our own good’, you know. Minna has every right to become a convert to Christianity, and to tell us about it, but no right to expect us to join her.
Post by: thorny on March 21, 2021, 05:03:45 PM
How do the Jews and Muslims in the Forum feel about this?
My heritage is Jewish, though I don't practice. That may well have something to do with my reactions (given various places in this thread, as I expect Róisín already noticed.)
Post by: MollyVampiric on March 21, 2021, 07:03:20 PM
Post by: JoB on March 21, 2021, 07:44:02 PM
And it ends with these words:"All humans are born in sin, a debt that by far the most of them can never get rid of, but God loves them nonetheless" is pretty much standard belief of Christians, usually including their own selves with those humans. It's what prompted the Christian God to sacrifice His own son to atone for said sins, so, quite the central and indispensible motif. Are we still talking about Minna's particular points of view here?Quoteremember this: your problem is your sin against God. But He is loving and merciful, and is still gathering his lost sheep, humble yourself and repent.Some of us, I'm sure, find this sort of thing easier to shrug off than others. Maybe we've been reading different chunks of history.
Post by: moredhel on March 21, 2021, 07:52:45 PM
Post by: Vulpes on March 21, 2021, 07:53:47 PM
If you have a public platform, yes you can say what you want, but you should also consider the consequences. I teach evolution sometimes, and I make a point to acknowledge religious beliefs and explain how they are outside the scope of the scientific method. I fear that my friend would say that those beliefs are stupid and wrong and only Darwin got it right - which is basically Fundamentalist Darwinism and just as bad as any other rigid belief system. Lest anyone say this is self-censorship, beyond the initial acknowledgement of beliefs I simply cover evolution the way I want to, with wonder and enthusiasm.
It does no good to attack people's beliefs, they just get their backs up - as demonstrated by this discussion! If I felt that her message was, "Christianity can help you through difficult times, it has helped me," or somesuch, fine. But the message that I got was that anyone who doesn't believe that Jesus will save them is doomed, and that includes YOU - imagine an accusatory finger poking out the screen. And as I mentioned before, it feels very much like a bait-and-switch; this much-anticipated feel-good cute bunny comic has just pounded me over the head with a bible. So I'm startled and offended, just as I would be if I went into the local grocery store and the manager suddenly came over and gave me a hellfire and brimstone sermon.
Enough rambling on from me - thanks everyone for the very civil and thoughtful discussion.
Post by: thorny on March 21, 2021, 08:21:40 PM
Suppose that Minna had done almost the same comic, but instead of choosing the passage about Jesus being the only way as the one to stress, had chosen something else -- maybe the bit about (paraphrasing) 'if you saw even the least of these hungry, and didn't feed them, that's the same as doing that to God'? She'd already made quite a deal in the comic of people who lost points not being able to get food, and of others being supposed to stay away from them and let them starve. That section would have fit nicely.
And suppose that at the end, instead of what she did say about (paraphrasing again, but it's really the only way I can read it) 'I'm safe now but if the rest of you have any problems it's your own fault for not believing that Jesus is God! and that's the only possible thing anyone can do to fix it!'; if instead of that she'd said something like 'I've been really distressed for quite a while, and then I became a Christian, and now I feel so much better and also I feel like I'm a much better person. Try letting Jesus into your heart, that can do the same for you!'
-- I'd have no problem at all with the second version. (I would if she kept following me down the street bugging me about it, but not for saying it in her own comic.) Do you see the difference?
-- I had another thought when writing that, and went back and looked at what Minna said at the end of the strip. And she doesn't say a word about having become a better person -- more compassionate, more merciful, or anything of the sort -- in fact, she says that doing good is useless, no amount of doing good could make her righteous. And she doesn't say she feels called upon to do good anyway. She seems only interested in the fact that she thinks her religion will make her, personally, spiritually safe.
JoB, I'm entirely aware that it's a common Christian belief that believing that Jesus of Nazareth is God is the only way to rid oneself of some sort of original sin; though I don't think even all Christians believe in original sin, or that nobody of other religions or none could possibly be righteous. But there's a whole lot of stuff in the Bible, much of it contradictory (including in the specifically Christian testaments), and not all Christians emphasize, or even follow, the same things -- let alone feel called upon to lecture the rest of us about it.
Post by: Annuil on March 21, 2021, 09:07:44 PM
I am a Christian and I indeed liked her idea, I liked that she so fearlessly decided to share it. I am pretty sure she knew what she was doing and that people may not like it.
It really may seem a little hard for non-Christians. Yes, there is no other way, believe in God or play for the Council like a marionette. Yes she says WE all are sinners, she says it for those who share her beliefs, because they will understand. By the time you get to that part of the comic you should have realized that it’s a story about Christianity. If you do not agree with what Christians believe or if you consider yourself of a different religion, than why does it even bother you? Why do you pay so much attention to things that you think aren’t true? It should not be the case if you are so sure of your own belief, you will just ignore it, because that’s not about you, it’s about people of that other religion.
Minna is not pushing her religion into her other comics. Her side-comic was just an idea that she wanted the world to see and so she let it come to life. She did nothing wrong with her desire to share that she learned something new. It’s just her way of expressing herself.
I do not think that this little comic is a reason to dislike Minna or stop being a fan of her works. One work is different from another. You may not like one work of an artist but you may love another one for all eternity. If Minna openly proclaimed that Muslims or Jews or atheists were lost souls and that they must change their minds, that would have been a subject to consider. Until that moment, if it ever comes to be, I will not agree to blame her.
Post by: Róisín on March 21, 2021, 09:29:09 PM
Christianity of the more fundamentalist kind unfortunately can encourage this sort of behaviour, which in its turn enables vile politics, racial and social oppression, the Crusades, the Stolen Generations and much of the rationale behind the slavery that has created many of the racial and social problems of modern America. Have you read any of the sermons of the time fulminating about how they are saving the inferior souls of the Sons of Ham from their brutish darkness by bringing them to a civilised Christian country where they can be converted and can purge their sins with honest labour? I have, and I regard that stuff with the same revulsion as I do any theology that considers one group, race or religion within humanity to have souls of higher or lower value than the souls of any other part of humanity. Pardon the rant, but this is an issue that grides me, and I am doubly appalled to find it arising here where I had felt safe and accepted.
We should also remember that what we have now as the Bible is a very heavily edited and amended work, and that the faith now contains many aspects that were not original. Consider the depredations of the Councils of Nicaea and the Council of Whitby, leading to such things as the loss of female clergy, the requirement for monkish celibacy, and huge financial gains for the church establishment at the expense of their believers. I wonder what the Christ would think of it all?
Post by: thorny on March 21, 2021, 09:51:49 PM
Yes, there is no other way, believe in God or play for the Council like a marionette.
Seriously? All non-Christians have to let their friends starve to death in the street, and couldn't possibly do anything about it unless they converted?
I vehemently disagree with that.
If you do not agree with what Christians believe or if you consider yourself of a different religion, than why does it even bother you? Why do you pay so much attention to things that you think aren’t true?
Why does it bother me? Because historically people have killed and tortured other people over religion. Frequently. And recently. In some places right now. Do I think Minna's consciously calling for that to happen? No, but the attitude she's espousing is what leads to it.
Why do I pay attention to things I think aren't true? Sometimes, as above, because I think they're dangerous. And any time, including when they're not dangerous, because I think it's really interesting how other people think. And because a lot of good people think some things that I think aren't true, but I want to pay attention to the people.
If Minna openly proclaimed that Muslims or Jews or atheists were lost souls and that they must change their minds, that would have been a subject to consider.
She did. Just because she didn't specifically use the words "Muslims" or "Jews" or "atheists" doesn't mean that that isn't what she's saying. She's just including everybody else along with us.
Post by: phyrestorm999 on March 21, 2021, 10:23:43 PM
And then there's the author's note.
Yikes.
Others have already done an excellent job of explaining what's wrong there, so I'm not going to get into it right now.
Minna, like everyone else, has every right to practice her religion, believe whatever she wants, and even use her website to insult those of us who don't share her beliefs. What she doesn't have a right to is our attention or our money. Personally, that load of cross-encrusted nastiness left such a bad taste in my mouth that I've gone off SSSS for the moment. I imagine I'll get over it enough to return sooner or later, but it will be with my ad blocker reactivated.
Dear Jesus, protect me from your followers.
Post by: Kitty on March 21, 2021, 10:45:45 PM
so uh, i am an unbaptized atheist living in an extremely catholic country who, as a kid, didnt go to religion class and don't go to church at all
and while i didnt really have any horrible terrible experiences like some people mentioned in this thread already, i did get a fair share of really mean people in my life, both from my then-peers as kids and adults, and thats not nice. its not nice to hear a 10yo classmate asking me if i know im going to hell and other mean stuff.
and this comic made me sad and hurt bc it felt a bit like that.
THAT BEING SAID
the comic itself is beautifully drawn, and i really liked some scenes from it, like that influencer bunny yelling at posers.
message got really scrambled tho, it felt as if it's saying 'this authoritative government system is extremely bad and doesnt let you question anything and you are either good or not a person, so you must listen to this authoritative system that doesnt let you question anything for you salvation'.
THAT THAT BEING SAID
i feel like year 2020 was extremely bad for everyone's mental health. and i dont think minna really went out that much before, so this made her extra cooped up, and all this bad situation gave rise to a bad feeling: fear.
and add to that additional fearmongering from bad people, like that guy that put a covid test into coca cola, and you get a recipe for a really bad thing happening to a person's mind.
minna is probably not really feeling well, and thats understandable.
she found solace in faith, and thats also good and im very happy for her.
i hope she will feel better soon, and i hope she will manage to understand that the message she tried to send was made with good intentions, but wasnt really... good.
i dont think shes a bad person or wanted to be mean to people. its just that the religion she chose is like that sometimes: you are either saved from your sins, or you are bad and go to hell.
and i dont think its a nice thing to say to people who arent doing anything bad except not believing in the same thing you do, or hold them responsible for sins you think everybody did :(
ALSO equating social credits system to a passport that checks if you're carrying the pandemic virus is a yikes my dudes. actual yikes. not comparable at all.
confirms my scared and not feeling well idea above.
I hope she feels better soon.
Post by: Annuil on March 21, 2021, 11:08:33 PM
Seriously? All non-Christians have to let their friends starve to death in the street, and couldn't possibly do anything about it unless they converted?I did not say that. And I do not get your point here. You see, in that comic there are many aspects of life that can be thought of. Minna did a great job pulling up ideas that we can think over, however she did not give solutions to some social problems. She focused on one side of the issue - religion, a certain religion, Christianity in this particular piece. Maybe there were some other ways people could have helped others but it seems like the governmental structure in that utopia is not allowing "good" citizens help "bad" citizens and that can happen easily and it is happening in our world, in a way. Not many people go out to help those suffering on the streets.
Why does it bother me? Because historically people have killed and tortured other people over religion. Frequently. And recently. In some places right now. Do I think Minna's consciously calling for that to happen? No, but the attitude she's espousing is what leads to it.I totally agree with you, people did and do murder on the basis of religious principles. And yes, that should not take place. On the other hand, as I said before, I do not believe Minna made her comic to call anyone to do anything. She simply stated what she believes as the right thing. Indeed it is interesting to know what other people think, but it should not cause arguing in a hard way, as it feels like we are doing now.
Why do I pay attention to things I think aren't true? Sometimes, as above, because I think they're dangerous. And any time, including when they're not dangerous, because I think it's really interesting how other people think. And because a lot of good people think some things that I think aren't true, but I want to pay attention to the people.
She did. Just because she didn't specifically use the words "Muslims" or "Jews" or "atheists" doesn't mean that that isn't what she's saying. She's just including everybody else along with us.That is the statement of faith, not an insult. For a Christian calling people to God is a great part of life, so to proclaim about one's faith it has to do something about calling others to repent. That is a healthy religious activity. One cannot speak about a religious topic, talk about their own faith and not try to convert someone. It is true for almost every religion. Others who are reading/listening must understand that.
I repeat, calling others to a certain faith is natural for every religion and should not be taken as an offense.
Post by: thorny on March 22, 2021, 12:14:22 AM
I did not say that.
What you said was:there is no other way, believe in God or play for the Council like a marionette.
How else is it possible to interpret that? The Council in the comic was requiring people to let their friends starve in the street if the friends' points dropped too low.One cannot speak about a religious topic, talk about their own faith and not try to convert someone. It is true for almost every religion. [ . . . ]
I repeat, calling others to a certain faith is natural for every religion
That is simply not true. Your religious education is lacking.
And there are plenty of people even among Christians who are quite capable of speaking about religious topics and talking about their own faith without overtly insisting that everyone else ought to convert.
Post by: yung_chrysanthemum on March 22, 2021, 12:31:47 AM
Post by: Azukidere on March 22, 2021, 12:41:59 AM
That is the statement of faith, not an insult. For a Christian calling people to God is a great part of life, so to proclaim about one's faith it has to do something about calling others to repent. That is a healthy religious activity. One cannot speak about a religious topic, talk about their own faith and not try to convert someone. It is true for almost every religion. Others who are reading/listening must understand that.
I repeat, calling others to a certain faith is natural for every religion and should not be taken as an offense.
Ok so this was supposed to be more clinical but I kind of went off but yanno what I’m a gay asian living in a post-Trump presently-COVID-19 America, I feel like I get to mouth off here, most of this is responding to this quote but ngl a lot of this is coming from my frustration with how minna engages with sensitive topics in general (terribly, it’s terribly):
I get that proselytizing can be natural for some sects, but this isn’t just espousing the virtues of Christianity, it’s insulting other ways of life as manufactured and manipulated, and painting a narrative of Christian persecution where none exists in real life.
It’s one thing to tell me that Christianity is cool and I should worship god, it’s another to paint inclusivity and updated thoughts on edicts displaced by thousands of years as government propaganda. If people were still espousing the same beliefs and same interpretations of the Bible they had even just a hundred years ago I’d be lying in a ditch somewhere. It’s the queer people like me, and the BIPOC, and the various marginalized groups who in historical terms only recently obtained de jure equality, who get blamed for the corruption of the institution of marriage, of society, of Christianity just not being the norm anymore. It’s rich to hear another story about Christian persecution vilifying inclusivity or cultural evolution when I open Twitter and see people from my ethnic community shot because a bat was sick in our homeland, or think about how the queer community doesn’t have many elders or grandparents because the government made the conscious decision to let us die.
Whether Minna consciously understood what she wrote or not, this is an offense to me. It’s an offense to take the stance of a group with a long history of enacting oppression, point to me, and say that the beliefs I espouse are what’s wrong with society, because it’s something that my people and many peoples have heard for years and years and years.
Talk about the power of god all you want, sing a thousand and one hymns, (they are admittedly beautiful) but don’t cry victim and point fingers and expect people to be ok.
Post by: Dilandu on March 22, 2021, 01:35:03 AM
Post by: Dilandu on March 22, 2021, 01:39:12 AM
How else is it possible to interpret that? The Council in the comic was requiring people to let their friends starve in the street if the friends' points dropped too low.
The problem is, that its essentially what all religions done in past (and some doing even now).
Post by: Buteo on March 22, 2021, 01:44:58 AM
My problem with the major proselytising monotheisms is their insistence that there is no other way but theirs. How one path could possibly carry all the various people, and peoples, is quite an absurd notion. (There I am, thinking in loaded emotional terms again; I was trying to keep it rational.)
I am sorry for Minna, and hope she can grow past this phase of initial, rather blind enthusiasm, and wind up in a more mature frame of mind.
At the same time, can anyone here tell me how to go through and save every page of Stand Still Stay Silent, including the comments sections, so that I don't lose this story that I love, and this community that I value above any other that I belong to? I'm terrified that Minna will decide that she is required to make her living some other way, and turn iconoclast on us.
Post by: Dilandu on March 22, 2021, 01:55:11 AM
It is such a pleasure to see articulate, intelligent people discussing this very difficult topic. I have seen my own reactions to the religious element, of the comic and Minna's afterword, well expressed: The dismay over the One True Path message.
My problem with the major proselytising monotheisms is their insistence that there is no other way but theirs. How one path could possibly carry all the various people, and peoples, is quite an absurd notion. (There I am, thinking in loaded emotional terms again; I was trying to keep it rational.)
I am sorry for Minna, and hope she can grow past this phase of initial, rather blind enthusiasm, and wind up in a more mature frame of mind.
At the same time, can anyone here tell me how to go through and save every page of Stand Still Stay Silent, including the comments sections, so that I don't lose this story that I love, and this community that I value above any other that I belong to? I'm terrified that Minna will decide that she is required to make her living some other way, and turn iconoclast on us.
Exactly. Without that passage, the whole thing would not raise that much controversy, because it would be "material vs spiritual" message. But specifying the spiritual part, turned ut dangerously close to outright propaganda.
Post by: Róisín on March 22, 2021, 01:57:56 AM
And forced conversion, a thing that happened to some of my ancestors, as it did to the parents of people I know and in the case of some older people I know, to them, we regard as being right up there with slavery and forced marriage. Look up the Stolen Generations as applied to the Aboriginal peoples of Australia. Just no.
We are allowed to share. You may notice liturgical poems I have made on the Mini Chapel thread. They are clearly labelled as what they are, and you are free to read or skip them as you please. And I will happily listen to a friend who is a songwriter and has made a number of hymns for her Christian community, because it gives me an insight into her and her folk, and I believe that it is important to learn to understand people whose beliefs are different from your own. But no, not all of us are obliged to convert other people.
Buteo, you make good points. And as for saving the comic I think that if you buy a copy as an ebook from the store it can’t be taken from you once you have paid for it? Star bought me a copy, he said it is considerably cheaper than the paper book and I can read it when I will. Anyone else know other methods? I am not very skilled at internet stuff.
Post by: Tarnagh on March 22, 2021, 02:05:28 AM
Quote
I am sorry for Minna, and hope she can grow past this phase of initial, rather blind enthusiasm, and wind up in a more mature frame of mind.I think this is a good summation for what's happening here. Every new convert to *any* faith is very much over the top about it. Hopefully that is all this is.
That said, I escaped Christianity in my early 20s and a lot of what she said in her commentary at the end of the comic brought back all the panic fear of those times. This wasn't an "echo" of things I remember being said, some of what she said is very close to verbatim what was shoved down my throat back then. It's frightening. Reading that comic and the commentary at the end has brought back a lot of things I thought were gone. It's been decades. I'm realizing tonight that they're not gone and reading all that ripped a dried blood encrusted bandage off a scabbed over sucking chest wound.
I genuinely hope Minna either returns to a more stable frame of mind or settles down into a more mature perspective on her faith.
I hope she's all right. When people are feeling alone and vulnerable is when religious predators are known to sink their claws into them. I desperately hope that isn't what's happened here.
Post by: Róisín on March 22, 2021, 02:54:02 AM
And I once knew somebody who was this kind of religious predator. I didn’t like him but we sometimes had to work together (we worked for the same research project at the time) and I always found him creepy. He never tried it on me even though I was at the time a young widow with children, because I was not vulnerable in that way and I knew my own mind. But he did entrap some other people I knew, several of whom came to bad ends. At present he is in prison for putting some of his younger, prettier victims out to prostitution, and for torturing people, but he will eventually be released. While in prison he has started a new pseudoChristian cult over the Internet, mostly based in Africa and of course painting himself as a poor persecuted victim, so he will have a fortune and a whole lot of new supporters when he comes out.
I hope Minna has not been sucked into something like that. I think and hope that she has too much sense, and I believe that she has a supportive family. Good luck to her.
Post by: JoB on March 22, 2021, 02:58:42 AM
How else is it possible to interpret that? The Council in the comic was requiring people to let their friends starve in the street if the friends' points dropped too low.And suchlike actions and convictions of the "Alizongle/WC system" is what Minna depicts as, and Christians should (and, I hope, would) call, despisable. Though I have to agree with Dilandu that she hasn't specifically put that label on the very methods ... yet?
At the same time, can anyone here tell me how to go through and save every page of Stand Still Stay Silent, including the comments sections, so that I don't lose this story that I love, and this community that I value above any other that I belong to? I'm terrified that Minna will decide that she is required to make her living some other way, and turn iconoclast on us.For the comic itself, there are the options of printed books, their electronic versions, or running a "crawler" or "spider" against the website (sorry, can't be more specific without knowing what kind of computing platform you have available ... and maybe not even then).
With the Disqus part being an insert from a different website, and subject to a "click here to load more" mechanism, I doubt that such software will automagically catch and record that, though.
I think this is a good summation for what's happening here. Every new convert to *any* faith is very much over the top about it. Hopefully that is all this is.
Spoiler: show
Can't really comment on that, but I am quite certain that even if so, it's a process that will usually take years ...
Post by: Keep Looking on March 22, 2021, 03:25:36 AM
I'm not a Christian anymore, but I've grown up in a very Christian family, and as a preacher's kid I know my fair share of theology. Christianity is a very large and diverse religion with many different interpretations taken of it, but Annuil is right in that in the branch of Christianity I grew up in, and presumably in what Minna has turned to, it is only through faith in Jesus's death and resurrection that you can be saved and brought into God's kingdom - because every person sins and God is perfect, nobody is good enough for God, and thus only through trusting in Jesus's redemptive act of sacrifice (taking our punishment onto himself on the cross) can you be saved. Yes, this condemns everyone from any other religion. Personally, that's something I take issue with, and is one of the big reasons I left the religion - I don't believe it is fair, or just, to condemn people to hell for something in their nature that they cannot change. However, when you are looking at Minna's beliefs and the doctrine of many sects of Christianity, this is an aspect of theology that you cannot ignore. There is also the belief that scripture - the Bible - is inspired by God, and thus every book in the Bible is there because of God's will, not human decision or weird historical shenanigans (again, something I personally cannot bring myself to believe).
With this in mind, the extremely evangelistic outlook that many Christians such as Minna take starts to make sense - if everybody who doesn't put their faith in Jesus is condemned, then logically it follows that you should try and convert as many people as you can. I can understand why Minna wrote what she did in her comic, because it's shockingly similar to much of the other Christian media of questionable quality that I was fed as a child, and in many aspects it's similar to the beliefs of my family and the beliefs I myself once held.
However, even taking all this into account, if you look at the comic from an evangelistic perspective it is still fundamentally flawed. As I said earlier, it doesn't provide any good reasoning as to why Christianity is a religion you should follow - if you don't already at least nominally believe in the Christian God, then why should you care about the message Minna puts across? It's the evangelistic equivalent of whacking a starving man in the face with a sack of potatoes instead of feeding them an actual meal.
In addition, it neglects what I think are some of the most important parts of Christian doctrine - the commitment towards loving others in your society, regardless of their beliefs. Jesus didn't detach himself from the 'evils of our society. He ate with 'sinful' tax collectors and prostitutes, and acted with compassion and empathy towards marginalized people. Sitting slightly ironically beside the doctrine of original sin is the conviction within Christian theology that Jesus's sacrifice on the cross was the ultimate act of love for humanity, and the way which Christians are supposed to share Christ's message isn't by whacking people with badly paraphrased theology, it's by showing Christ's love to the people around them. The Christians I know who have done truly good things in the world have done it in the name of Christ's love. This comic is not showing love to anyone. The idea that in order to follow Christ you must detach yourself completely from the 'evil' modern culture is what leads to cult-like sects that genuinely harm the people within them - I've talked to people whose sects of Christianity treated everything about modern culture as evil, and it really, really messed them up. It certainly doesn't drive people to show love and compassion to those around them.
I also very much agree with Róisín and Azuki - fundamentalist Christianity and its extremely evangelistic attitudes have caused genuine damage to a large number of minority groups on its outside, as well as (within some sects) the people on the inside as well. I believe that people have the right to hold to whatever faith they want, but when your religion dictates that all other faiths lead to damnation, it's very easy to fall into the idea that all other cultures are inherently inferior to yours. There is a long history of Christians forcibly shoving their religion onto people from other cultures, and often forcibly shoving their entire culture along with it. I completely respect people's free choice to convert to another religion, including Christianity, but yeah. Attitudes like the ones Minna seems to be promoting have caused a lot of damage. Additionally, there are several parts in her dialogue that seem critical of modern culture becoming more inclusive of people of different beliefs, which is a yikes from me. Her story displays a pretty large persecution complex - the idea that because society is able to be critical of your religion, and other religions exist in the same space, that means you're being persecuted, which fosters an us/them dichotomy as people who hold that religion see outsiders as the enemy, and also trivializes the experiences of people who actually experience religious persecution.
As for me personally, I have to face with the fact that in less than a year's time, when I graduate high school and turn 18, I'm going to tell my parents that I'm both queer and no longer Christian, essentially damning myself to hell in their eyes (I really, really don't want to join the Christian uni groups. Attending our church makes me feel sick. And the longer I hide things, the harder it's gonna be to build the relationships back). It's gonna devastate them. I'm gonna have one hell of a summer.
Post by: Róisín on March 22, 2021, 04:37:23 AM
I find it alarming how much of the rhetoric of fundamentalism is drawn from the Old Testament, since the Christ himself said that his intention was to bring a new revelation, and the emphasis of his teaching seems to have been on how humans should treat other humans, and on the love of god rather than the fire and brimstone style of the Old Testament. The Christ did not lack courage or manliness - he must have been pretty tough to be a carpenter in those days, not to mention being able to win the allegiance of a bunch of Galilaean fishermen to his cause and to whip the moneylenders out of the temple. And the leadup to his death and the death itself, while knowing and understanding exactly what was coming, demonstrates a degree of determination and courage that I find praiseworthy. He would be a god worth following, even if he is not my god.
But his life demonstrates that he also did not lack love, human decency, kindness and compassion, and this tends to vanish from the practise of old testament fundamentalism. Which is a pity, because the inhumanity of their faith disgusts and alienates people who might otherwise make good Christians. I don’t think the Christ would recognise what his new revelation of love and mercy has become in the hands of the unjust and unmerciful. It is sad.
Post by: kit_r_writing on March 22, 2021, 05:08:06 AM
Post by: Superdark33 on March 22, 2021, 05:14:21 AM
Theres plenty of info in her comics and things she outright stated in the streams that show her entirely selfish and misanthropic worldviews, that center her as the smartest and most capable, cities as horrid hives of deranged and 'crazy' people, discounts the expiriences of anyone who lives a life separate from hers, treats any media as disposable crap unless she already grew up on it...
Its not that much of a change for her.
Post by: Marvin on March 22, 2021, 08:36:34 AM
As for "Lovely People" itself. It was good. If the afterword had pointed out the irony, instead of not realizing it, it would have been really amazing!
Post by: Dilandu on March 22, 2021, 09:27:28 AM
I'm curious, how the irony of condemning a "social score" system while advoacting a religious system, with the same basic premise: "Here are the arbitrary values to uphold, or you will be judged!"
Yep, which essentially make the whole message fairly hypocritical. And I agree, that its afterworld which essentially ruined all effect from the comics. Without it, it would be quite good tale. With it... blatant and hypocritical religious propaganda.
Post by: Ragnarok on March 22, 2021, 09:28:43 AM
Minna's dead.
The body's still breathing, but what's running it is now the parasitic memeplex that categorizes fundamentalist Christianity. That's what happens to 'born again' Christians like this who talk about how everyone is a sinner and how they personally deserve no mercy. It's the same toxic brand of Christianity that infests much of the US.
The entire comic is borne out of that Christianity's need to invent persecution of itself. The entire spiel about how cancel culture is evil, the shrieking about a NWO, it's all borne out of the need to invent a boogeyman.
I give it a week before this forum is flooded with equally obnoxious fundamentalists, because Minna's rung the metaphorical dinner bell.
Post by: thorny on March 22, 2021, 11:24:22 AM
The problem is, that its essentially what all religions done in past (and some doing even now).
Nope.
There have been and still are plenty of religions that hold that they're the right ones for their people, but that other people have their own beliefs. Some make conversion difficult, even for those who want to do so without having been proselytized to. Some hold ceremonies forbidden to outsiders, and provide no method of conversion other than, perhaps, full adoption into the group, which is not a thing they push members of other groups to do.
I give it a week before this forum is flooded with equally obnoxious fundamentalists, because Minna's rung the metaphorical dinner bell.
This forum is under the control of its own moderators, and can be protected. That may well be what happens to the Discus discussion, though; which is why I'm going to quit reading it. (If instead there's a lively genuine discussion of this mess going on over there, somebody tell me quick so I can go look before Minna deletes it.)
I'm curious, how the irony of condemning a "social score" system while advoacting a religious system, with the same basic premise: "Here are the arbitrary values to uphold, or you will be judged!"
As for "Lovely People" itself. It was good. If the afterword had pointed out the irony, instead of not realizing it, it would have been really amazing!
This. Very much this. Especially that last line!
(I think Lovely People itself was kind of overbearing and simplistic, myself; but an afterword of that sort would have redeemed that also.)
And suchlike actions and convictions of the "Alizongle/WC system" is what Minna depicts as, and Christians should (and, I hope, would) call, despisable.
Yes, I agree with that; and I agree that the Alizongle system as depicted is despisable. What I'm objecting to is claims, by Minna and one poster here, that it's the only possible other choice to Christianity.
I genuinely hope Minna either returns to a more stable frame of mind or settles down into a more mature perspective on her faith.
I hope she's all right. When people are feeling alone and vulnerable is when religious predators are known to sink their claws into them. I desperately hope that isn't what's happened here.
Agreeing with this.
I understand that it's fairly standard Christian theology to say that all humans are worthless sinners who can only be saved by God, and that this can amount to a way of expressing the undeniable truth that we're all tiny in comparison to the universe, and/or can be useful to reduce the expressions of egotism in people inclined too far in the other direction. But I am very bothered by the combination of her saying she had been in extreme distress for some time and her saying that she's utterly worthless and can never be otherwise. It reads to me as if she's been groomed by an abuser.
Buteo, you make good points. And as for saving the comic I think that if you buy a copy as an ebook from the store it can’t be taken from you once you have paid for it? Star bought me a copy, he said it is considerably cheaper than the paper book and I can read it when I will. Anyone else know other methods? I am not very skilled at internet stuff.
It's possible that Buteo wants to save for personal use what's already been read, but not to give more money to Minna; which is what buying either hardcopies or ebooks would do. If she gets a spike in sales from people afraid she'll destroy the books online, I suspect she'd be likely to misinterpret that as support for what she's now doing.
Post by: Kis on March 22, 2021, 11:44:07 AM
Post by: Songbird on March 22, 2021, 12:01:56 PM
It's not like I'm entirely surprised. I'm stunned by the religious elements, that I didn't see coming, but I can't say the self-righteous ostracism bent did. I suspected as much already given how some elements were presented in the start of the comic and a comment by the author herself some months ago stating something along the "yet I don't antagonize the majority of you, who don't follow my beliefs" lines, it's just I hoped I was wrong. I don't see the point of rehashing what was expressed in a much more thoughtful manner by you already, suffice to say that this comic didn't sit well with me.
I'm also alarmed by the amount of self-condemnation and hatred expressed in those end notes though. I get a sense of someone who feels lost, who perhaps felt unmoored and vulnerable already before COVID hit the world, who looked at herself and didn't like what she saw. The newfound religion is a safe harbor in the midst of a frightening world. She sounds as someone very hard on herself, and this might also be why she feels so comfortable on being so hard on us as well, telling what's "our problems are" and everything else? If she can bear this pain and shame we surely should be able as well? She has no doubts she's right, after all.
I wonder if she gets the chance not being Minna Sundberg The Author very often. I mean... To make it as an artist you have to make yourself vulnerable. You're expected to use your name to both to retain control over your creation in a medium where it's so easy for someone else to take your hard work and make a buck out of it when you're barely making ends meet, and to build a relationship of trust with your audience. Some people relish in it, in getting known and recognized. The issue is when you don't. People will find you, people will follow you in the truest sense of the word. They'll keep their eyes on you and get very vocal about what you should or not do. Whether you asked for it is of little consequence. You stop being perceived as a person when you become an icon. It's incredibly arrogant of me to make such assumptions about someone who no matter for how long I've been reading I fundamentally do not know, but this is my own experience as an artist in the age of the internet and the only POV I know. You live by the unspoken rule of appearing to always be well and strong and successful all while being terrorized by the constant idea of somehow fumbling it and jeopardizing your livelihood. It could be a change of style, something you say, your very identity. It could be you need a break but you know you can't because a cornerstone of your success is being consistent. It stops being about just doing art and hoping people enjoy it and becomes about needing people to enjoy it because this is what you know to do, this is what you've been doing for years and the alternative is worse. In the midst of all this you also feel an ass—shouldn't you be grateful for your success?! What you're so upset about? You've got a roof, food on your plate, all result of your hard work. You just need to keep doing it! ...but if you fumble it, will enough people stay around? What if you want to change the direction of the story, or you don't but your long planned big twist is badly received? The stake of failure is high and there are countless ways to fail. It's frightening and just thinking of it feels horrible, as if you're using people. The strong link between your name and your work—the very same thing that helps you to be successful—increases the scrutiny and potential ways to lose your means of survival. It leaves very little shade in which to rest and just be a person. It should increase the support received too but when you're someone very private even those friendly eyes are a source of great discomfort, and if you're the kind of person who is already harsh on yourself, well... All you're left is with a long list of everything that's wrong with you, true or not, and the sensation you're being pushed and squeezed from all sides.
So while I intensely disliked that comic the way it was presented, disagreeing with the sentiment and the conclusions she came to, I emphasize with the feeling of being under bone-crushing pressure. I'm concerned. I hope she has somewhere to turn where she doesn't have to carry the responsibility of being the author and artist and the stakes attached to it, people who genuinely care for her, a place disinvested from what she can do for them and their cause. I hope she can find it in her to forgive herself for her less perfect edges, and that she can find ways to grow and enjoy her newfound religion that don't involve using it as a sacred unquestionable shield from everything that hurts her.
Post by: Ragnarok on March 22, 2021, 12:09:45 PM
It's not like I'm entirely surprised. I'm stunned by the religious elements, that I didn't see coming, but I can't say the self-righteous ostracism bent did. I suspected as much already given how some elements were presented in the start of the comic and a comment by the author herself some months ago stating something along the "yet I don't antagonize the majority of you, who don't follow my beliefs" lines, it's just I hoped I was wrong. I don't see the point of rehashing what was expressed in a much more thoughtful manner by you already, suffice to say that this comic didn't sit well with me.
I'm also alarmed by the amount of self-condemnation and hatred expressed in those end notes though. I get a sense of someone who feels lost, who perhaps felt unmoored and vulnerable already before COVID hit the world, who looked at herself and didn't like what she saw. The newfound religion is a safe harbor in the midst of a frightening world. She sounds as someone very hard on herself, and this might also be why she feels so comfortable on being so hard on us as well, telling what's "our problems are" and everything else? If she can bear this pain and shame we surely should be able as well? She has no doubts she's right, after all.
I'm more than a little worried that Minna's been recruited into a cult of sorts. The whole self-hatred thing is a big one for the nuttier sects.
Post by: Kis on March 22, 2021, 12:29:02 PM
"I just want to give you some perspective into "all this".
Minna was born into a Finnish Christian family where she was raised to honor that ”All human beings are born equal and they must be guaranteed the same rights and freedoms without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status”
As her father I can firmly state that already as a young girl she cemented these values into her heart and her way of living. I’m convinced that she has not dropped any of these values just because she again identify her self as a Christian. If she has, I will be deeply disappointed.
I was talking to her earlier this morning, she told me that she is reading your comments and she will not close down the discussion. She respects you all and your right to free speach. However, if she finds the strengtht the Bunny Comic will have it's own place by tomorrow.
On a personal note. No matter who you are, Be nice to each and other!
BR Jouni Sundberg"
Post by: Marvin on March 22, 2021, 12:35:40 PM
...
If she has, I will be deeply disappointed.
...
Oh, wow.. Strong stuff...
Post by: thorny on March 22, 2021, 12:44:43 PM
Some of more recent discussions have become quite heated, but overall I think you won't regret checking on it, there are lots of interesting stances and arguments and most people are trying to keep it civil.
Wow. There really is a vehement discussion going on over there; and, at least so far, it seems to be staying up. Hope that continues; but, despite claims in one of the more recent posts, I'm not counting on it.
Going to take me a while to read it. I gather Minna herself has not responded?
You live by the unspoken rule of appearing to always be well and strong and successful all while being terrorized by the constant idea of somehow fumbling it and jeopardizing your livelihood. It could be a change of style, something you say, your very identity. It could be you need a break but you know you can't because a cornerstone of your success is being consistent.
I do wonder about possible sleep deprivation. Minna produces pages that look, at least to me, like each page must take an astonishing amount of work -- and for a while she was doing so five days a week, seemed to feel bad about dropping that to four, and continued producing at least two and some of the time three while simultaneously doing another major project on which she was doing multiple pages weekly. Most comics sites, including ones with less detail, don't seem to update that often.
Post by: Kis on March 22, 2021, 01:34:35 PM
I gather Minna herself has not responded?
She did not, as of yet. In my opinion, it is safe to say that she will give some kind of response when she posts the next page.
...even though I was (maybe still am) dumbfounded by her words and find it hard to support her new belief if phrased in such a way, I really hope she is okay mentally and physically, this whole cult talk got me extremely worried.
Post by: Danieleon on March 22, 2021, 01:57:40 PM
After reading many of your thougths I get why Minna's final words in her epilogue may come as preachy to say the least and offensive at worst to some of the people who has had the misfortune of getting the short straw from previous interactions with Christians.
But I'd like to add my cinco pesos to the argument and say that I don't think her words come from ill feelings towards non-christians but out of the wish that others can experiment the good that she found in her faith. After all Christianity is not a "folk" centered religion but a "catholic" one (as in universal, not the denomination) and evangelization is an important tenent of the New Testament, with Jesus often calling His followers to go out and tell people about his message.
As for the quality of SSSS concerns, I don't think it will be deeply affected by her religious views just like Tolkien's work didn't got deeply changed just because he became Catholic.
Post by: Shakkiz the Red on March 22, 2021, 04:30:21 PM
For those getting their feathers ruffled over the message of Lovely People, I appreciate where some of you are coming from, but I also don't think Minna's beliefs will bleed over into SSSS.
Your own worldview, both religious and secular, is no necessary limit on your creative endeavors, J. R. R. Tolkien is a good example. I, a Christian, am excited to see other potential expressions of the supernatural as the story continues, a story setting with multiple pantheons of gods coexisting is fascinating.
Post by: wavewright62 on March 22, 2021, 04:46:40 PM
The Forum has guidelines about shutting down hate speech and guiding contentious topics away. But, I feel that open discussion is valuable, and I am in no hurry to shut it down. I am active in a few of the fandom spaces, and have seen the furore raging these past few days (has it really only been since Saturday? seems longer).
(https://36.media.tumblr.com/78d33d47ecbb6b1002744ca136f24010/tumblr_inline_nlguawfNN91r2g2kx_500.png)
I think it's healthy, SO LONG AS we don't degenerate into personal attacks.
(http://orig01.deviantart.net/4495/f/2015/222/1/7/lacking_a_response_by_monsteara-d9547cf.jpg)
Most of the discussion here, while passionate, has been insightful and civil, and even among those of you for whom English is not your first language. Wow! Another reason to enjoy the community we have here.
Some of your posts could be seen as personal attacks upon Minna and upon each other. Also, wow, because you know better. Keep it civil, keep it kind, please and thank you.
Post by: Superdark33 on March 22, 2021, 06:05:07 PM
After all Christianity is not a "folk" centered religion but a "catholic" one (as in universal, not the denomination) and evangelization is an important tenent of the New Testament, with Jesus often calling His followers to go out and tell people about his message.
If you cant see why enforcing one's beliefs on others (even without the genocidal cruelity of how its been done in the past, in christianity's case) is not only harmful but extremely insulting, and that excusing it as "just part of her beliefs" is not a good arguement at all, i dont know what to tell you.
Orginized religions can be good.... to the people it chooses to benefits.
There are still countless of victims being silenced or pushed in the grinder in the name of Belief, you dont even have to be an outgroup to end up being chewed and spat out by whatever system is in there.
Whats good in Rome might not be good in Dublin, for one.
Post by: Ragnarok on March 22, 2021, 06:15:27 PM
Wonderful to see my expectations are being lived down to.
Post by: Tarnagh on March 22, 2021, 06:17:06 PM
(Edit: Ninja'd by Ragnarok. Which is an amusing sentence to type. :) )
Post by: Vulpes on March 22, 2021, 06:21:45 PM
Post by: PyroDesu on March 22, 2021, 06:33:04 PM
Those notes are even more worrying.
I dearly hope Sundberg Sr. (if that was, in fact, her father) takes my request in mind and talks with Minna not (just) about the comments or the comic, but about her. I fear the possibility that she's fallen into a dangerous practice and he would be the best positioned to pull her out if she has.
If it doesn't force a wedge between them first.
Post by: zxs on March 22, 2021, 06:40:43 PM
I'm going to ignore all that text below the comic for now.
Interesting take on a social credit system, with very cute bunnies! I think the story can be generalized to any sort of group that might be persecuted under such a system, whether that be because of your religion, race, gender identity, or anything else. Let's look at the reasons why each of our main bunnies decide to venture into the unknown.
Peppermint's score was reduced because of her child Lavender. Lavender tries to give food to a bunny with such a low score, they're not recognized at all. Peppermint chides Lavender for attempting to interact at all with someone with such a low score. Later, when Lavender gets her own score, she tanks it, partially to prove a point to her mother (that simply having a low score shouldn't be a reason to exile someone). Peppermint rightfully chooses her family over her score.
Marigold's story is obviously where the bulk of the attention has been so far, but like I said her story could be analogous to a lot more than just religion. The social credit system tends to erase any sort of lifestyle that doesn't exactly match up with the prevailing culture. Sound familiar?
Lastly, Peony, after abandoning her real friends, discovers that her Tooter friends are fake and quick to denounce/abandon her. In our world today, this is how social media works. Things you do are taken out of context and you're represented wholly by 280 characters you write. Social media has a lot of power in our world, both good and bad, and I think it's good to have stories that include the bad side.
As you can see, there's a lot to take away from Lovely People aside from the fairly heavy-handed proselytization. Now, do I think that Minna wrote Marigold's story to represent any abstract nonconformist lifestyle? Reading the text at the end, probably not; it gives off strong "Christian persecution complex" vibes. But that doesn't mean that we can't look at the story and reflect on all of the other good parts of it.
Post by: thorny on March 22, 2021, 07:47:50 PM
Those notes are even more worrying.
Yeah.
I had some faint hope that maybe she'd read them, think about them, and post some sort of apology and/or at least an attempt at innocuous explanation to those who were insulted and hurt by the endtext.
But no, all we get is what amounts to 'of course I'm right and you'd all agree with me if you were thinking correctly'. People called out to her, all over that Discus thread, in genuine and serious pain, and she can't or won't hear them.
Maybe her family can get through to her, with what reads to me like their non-toxic version of Christianity; but we sure can't. I wish them luck. They may well not have any.
Post by: Sc0ut on March 22, 2021, 07:48:54 PM
(And if I were to get into more detail here: no mention of the vast positive uses of social media, which has helped people maintain some sense of connection to others especially now that we're all distancing, which has even before helped neurodivergents and people with certain disabilities make and keep friends easier than we can irl, and has ironically even helped with resisting oppressive governments... no, it's all painted with a single brush, all bad, all shallow, all connected to consumerism and everything that is bad in the world.
No explanation for why consumerism is bad for that matter, until we get to the end of the comic - in the real world, this is because it poses a big threat to the environment and forces people to work in poor conditions to mass produce items, but Minna has no concerns about that ofc.
And if someone really wants to make an interesting commentary on the social credit system, they could, for instance, explore the differences between the government taking away your UBI because of "bad behaviour" and the government never giving anyone an UBI in the first place and allowing people to die avoidable deaths just because they weren't born in lucky enough circumstances to make it in life... and see the two may not be as different, in some cases... but again, this comic is not concerned with real world issues at all. This is the real reason it's a bad comic imo, not the religious themes, but the failure to provide accurate and relevant commentary on reality, instead staying at a level where the story only nods towards hot topic issues like "consumerism am I right", and cruises on the readers' existing preconceived notions without saying anything really original or thought out about them, and painting some of the most misguided stereotypes as truth, such as the one about social media being only or mainly about faking)
The proselytizing is downright offensive though, especially for those of us who have or still are suffering because of people who insist on following their own brand of religion too closely. *They* are the ones currently trying to make laws to limit others' rights in Europe, where Minna lives, and not the other way around. To write a story where hardcore Christians are the oppressed ones is in my opinion cruel and grotesque, given the current real world context.
I find the insistence of some that we must find something positive in the comic offensive as well. Nah, personally I hated it and I think there's nothing wrong with saying this. This doesn't mean I will attack Minna or her remaining/new fans. I'm sharing my 2c, especially for those who might feel their pain is not seen, then move on with my life. The fact that Minna consistently extends zero compassion to those who might be harmed by what she does (even when she anticipates them being hurt), has cemented the decision that I'm not interested in what she has to say art-wise anymore. Someone who despises most people as well as herself (as I understand from the afterword), and instead of taking steps towards understanding other people and bettering herself, just climbs on an easy, accessible high horse, is not someone I want contributing to my world view. I'd fallen out with ssss anyway, partway because of unaddressed issues with it and partway due to the glacial pacing. I got into ssss at a point when pretty art, an interesting premise and some queerbaiting were enough to hold my interest, but they are not anymore and the comic is not delivering anything I'm interested in except maybe in the most minute quantities (seeing beasts being hunted, tortured and die gruesome deaths over dozens of pages just isn't my thing and has been actively putting me off even when I was more interested in the comic, and it's been a long time since we've had anything else).
Phew, sorry for the detour to ssss. My life is richer for the people I met here and all the discussions (including controversial ones!) that I've got to be part of or only read, and which helped cement how I feel about some things and who I am, and for that part I am grateful. I wish you all the best and I may still pop around to see what people are up to (maybe even enjoying your fan creations, which have always been a huge part of the fandom for me, in the latter part taking precedence over the comic itself), but as far as my interest for Minna's art is concerned, Lovely People was just the final definitive nail in its coffin.
Post by: thorny on March 22, 2021, 07:50:36 PM
The social credit system tends to erase any sort of lifestyle that doesn't exactly match up with the prevailing culture. Sound familiar?
Yup. It sounds exactly like 'there is only one true religion and way of living, and everyone must conform to it.'
Post by: Tarnagh on March 22, 2021, 08:26:35 PM
Yup. It sounds exactly like 'there is only one true religion and way of living, and everyone must conform to it.'"If you don't, you're a non-person living in sin and destined for Hell. It's all your fault. You could have made better choices! You could have chosen the Proper Path!"
I've been trying to explain to my husband why I've been so down today. Dealing with a lot of old scars and still processing it all, I guess.
Post by: Crumpite on March 22, 2021, 09:09:05 PM
It's good to get confirmation once in a while when things bother you...
The posts here have been wonderful and lifted my spirits a bit.
I'm doing a bit of preemptive grieving about our group here I guess, as I've seen several other groups destroyed by this type of thing.
This group is the only social life I have and I'll be really sad if I loose it !
I don't have anything to add that hasn't already been said.
I'll continue to follow SSSS till the end, but won't follow anything religious from Minna.
Butter Good !
Post by: Tarnagh on March 22, 2021, 09:25:32 PM
This group is the only social life I have and I'll be really sad if I loose it !Butter Good, Crumpite. :)
I'll continue to follow SSSS till the end, but won't follow anything religious from Minna.
Butter Good !
I agree about not following anything religious.
I'd forgotten about these forums until they got mentioned in yesterday's comments although it seems I registered already at some point in the past. I genuinely love reading comments (and poems!) from the Commentariat. Since this forum is unaffiliated with Minna already, maybe it could be a new home for The Group At Large?
Post by: Crumpite on March 22, 2021, 09:49:06 PM
I like the comment section because you can reply to posts instead of just adding on to the end like we do here, but this will serve if need be.
This is a trifle premature but it would be good to get a discussion started.
This is too good of a group to loose !
The Group at Large Chowder and Dream Duck Society 😀
Post by: moredhel on March 22, 2021, 09:57:24 PM
"If you don't, you're a non-person living in sin and destined for Hell.
That is the point where discussions lead to exactly nowhere good. Because christians believes this. I believe my bisexual life without any organized religion (but not without believing some things) is quite fine. And there is no way to find any compromise. The believers really just want the best for you when they say your complete life is wrong. But nobody wants to hear that following their own nature/heart/soul/spirit/whatever in the direction best for yourself is wrong/sin/evil.
We will see what effect Minna's faith has on her work. That is in my oppinon the most important question here. But we can only find out by waiting.
Post by: thorny on March 22, 2021, 10:06:15 PM
Since this forum is unaffiliated with Minna already, maybe it could be a new home for The Group At Large?
Maybe it can also continue to be a home for those of us who've been here, even if we quit reading the comic.
I like the comment section because you can reply to posts instead of just adding on to the end like we do here, but this will serve if need be.
Do you mean because a reply on Discus can be inserted into the thread at that point, even if the thread's a lot of posts further on?
I only lurked on the Discus discussions; but I always found that confusing; I never knew whether new posts had shown up or not, or where to look for them if they had. I find it easier to keep track of what people are replying to by having them quote the relevant bits at the top of what they're posting. You can get back to the quoted post if you want by clicking on its header.
Post by: Tarnagh on March 22, 2021, 11:00:12 PM
We will see what effect Minna's faith has on her work. That is in my oppinon the most important question here. But we can only find out by waiting.
Quote from: Minna's comment on today's comic
IN CLONCLUSION: it's okay to be upset with me, no bad feelings, SSSS will continue as normal until its end, and then I'll see where God takes me for the next project. See you on Thursday for the next page, we're getting close to the end of this chapter.I have a feeling it's going to be more of the same theme as "Lovely People" once SSSS is done. You're right, though, we can only find out by waiting.
Maybe it can also continue to be a home for those of us who've been here, even if we quit reading the comic.I hope so! The Commentariat is one of the kindest places on the internet! I've had more to say in the last 24 hours here than I think I've said in pretty much the entire time I've been reading the comic. :( I always read people's comments even if I don't feel like I've usually got much to contribute. It's a wonderful group of people and I'd like to remain a part of that (even if it's a small part), if I could.
Post by: gjuerne on March 22, 2021, 11:06:53 PM
Thank you, community members, for the thoughtful and passionate discussion here. I have dearly loved the international community and the intelligent discussions as well as the poetry, pun cascades, and silliness that happen in the comment section.
I’ve seen troubled people succumb to rather toxic brands of Christianity promulgated by certain groups; I hope Minna has not mixed herself up with folks like that. I too hope that comment by Minna’s dad was the real deal, she’ll need supportive family.
Post by: PyroDesu on March 23, 2021, 01:02:42 AM
We will see what effect Minna's faith has on her work. That is in my oppinon the most important question here. But we can only find out by waiting.
I mean, it's caused her to stop work on CoH (a SSSS spinoff game she'd been working on for 3-4 years now), and SSSS is stopping as soon as she wraps up the current storyline.
So there's a couple of major effects it's having.
And I don't have much hope for future works, given what she said.
Post by: Suominoita on March 23, 2021, 02:38:05 AM
There are some very Finnish connections that popped out to me. One has to do with using religious' dogma as basis for any sort of discrimination in a TV-interview and/or trying to do politics with that.
Another is a novel series Sammon Vartijat by Timo Parvela I was reminded of when they discarded the cellphones. It's basically an adventure story about Finnish Mythology.
Post by: Róisín on March 23, 2021, 03:39:25 AM
And Crumpite, I meant to say: don’t give up on us! We would hate to lose your wit and insight.
Post by: Marvin on March 23, 2021, 03:50:51 AM
Quote
If that technocracy is to come it will come, be it in 5 years or 50, and it will be in accordance with God's plan. For me personally I wont be harmed by it, because God already had mercy on me and pulled me to him last year. My soul is safe, no matter what's to come.
Oh doi.... If that bit was under Lovely People I overlooked it yesterday. But this is really dark. It's almost like she snapped and some fundamentalist cult took her soul. It's sad.
And the new comments with new SSSS page are even more worrying. "No I'm not hurt, I feel only compassion" and so on... Blinded by the light, really...
I really hoped this was a fluke and somhow she'd come out and state something like: "Ha! Gotcha! I hope you all got the bitter irony of leaving the technolized religion of the social credit system, just to enter another oppressive system in the veil of a deeper moral truth"
To be clear, she can believe whatever she wants, but for me personally it is utterly sad. She created this beautiful spiritual and (despite all the bad things happening) hopeful world of SSSS based on ancient mythology. And yet, she fell for some bullshit oppressive dogma thats in no way different than the "evil system" her bunnies fled.
shit...
Post by: Raaffiie on March 23, 2021, 06:15:05 AM
If I might make a suggestion, and if people are comfortable with it, why don't you make a subreddit for this group? That would allow you to keep the structure of the comment section, where people can make posts and reply to each other in threads in the comments. Of course it's just one of many options, but my personal experience with Reddit has been quite positive for smaller communities like these.
Post by: Superdark33 on March 23, 2021, 06:31:41 AM
Post by: Raaffiie on March 23, 2021, 07:38:14 AM
There already is a subreddit, but it is not a confortable format for a lot of people and also the site is trash in general so not a lot of people are on it
Yeah, I certainly get that sentiment as well, especially given the nature of this community. I never really visit the front page of Reddit either, though I do find the subreddit structure quite handy. Still, it might be nice to consider a forum structure that's a bit less linear and is more suited to one-on-one conversation.
Post by: Annuil on March 23, 2021, 08:22:19 AM
However, I will argue no more. Minna said it. In her notes on the latest page update she said it perfectly. She earned my greatest respect by being so strong and so confident in her faith. I feel safe for her.
It is great to see that we can just come here and share our thoughts and have such an argument like one we have here. It is also great to see that it keeps being civil. There were a few words that made me feel pretty much insulted as a follower of certain beliefs but that is normal for an argument of this sort.
Also, all the newbies, welcome to the forum! It would be fun to see you all in the Introduction thread on General Discussion board! :tuuri:
Post by: Superdark33 on March 23, 2021, 09:33:15 AM
Post by: TheOneThatGotAway on March 23, 2021, 09:52:27 AM
BUT
I can't live with the whole Black/White set-up, no middle-ground possible. I can't live with the "people like us have a Pathtm when we get kicked out of society". I can't live with the imagined persecution, when characters live in a society where they're actively persecuting others, even children, for not "groupthinking" up until it suddenly hits THEM. I can't STAND people who throw aside all critical thinking when it behooves (bepaws?) them.
I worry for Minna. Like others, I'm afraid she's heading towards the deep end and she just took off her floaties because "God is with her". In my book, you can have faith in whatever religion you want, you can write your own stories about it, you can publish those, you can try to persuade me you're right and I'm wrong,... but you can't do that if you're not willing to engage in discussions about it where I can tell you YOU are wrong, and what YOU are saying is toxic and hurting a lot of people.
Also, the whole thing about seeing ghosts of a social credit system behind the EU trying to facilitate the free travel of all Europeans in the aftermath of a horrendous pandemic? Get out of here. That's some conspiracy theory BS.
I'm sorry, I just expected more from Minna. Now I'm just wondering what her real thoughts would be when confronted with the Chinese practices against the Uyghurs. Or what she feels about many, many of her readers not being able to go to heaven?
Caveat, I'm a bit emotional rn: Raised christian, but never really a believer, currently pretty atheist. At the same time, right now, my decently religious grand-mother is having heartsurgery, and I don't know if I should burn a candle for her, say a prayer to a god I don't believe in, or in case things go south, either hope that there IS an afterlife and she was good enough, or believe there is nothing but the memories we would keep of her.
BTW: first time here on the forum, you all sound like very nice, articulate, smart people.
Post by: Kitty on March 23, 2021, 10:20:21 AM
I feel safe for her.
idk man, setting aside the way feelings of other people were hurt with what she said (and she legit said a mean thing and hurt people, myself included tbh), it seems she has very bad opinion of herself at the moment, and she didn't do anything that would be worthy of calling herself a terrible bad sinner. she's just not one. she draws comics and earns money for a living like a normal person, declaring herself bad is just
not true.
and it's a toxic mindset to have. you're allowed to be happy. you're allowed to be proud of making art as good as minna's. calling yourself bad for being happy just tells me she's really not feeling well.
plus, what she said about the passports and social credits and touched upon medications... it's objectively incorrect.
i hope her family manages to reach out to her. in time, they might get through.
religion in itself is not a bad thing, but the worries people have is that this particular way of thinking she seems to have adopted is unhealthy for her, and hurtful to others. yknow.
Post by: PyroDesu on March 23, 2021, 10:44:39 AM
Calling yourself bad for being happy just tells me she's really not feeling well.
This, combined with brushing off all duly deserved criticism, and worse, genuine concern, as people with hate in their hearts.
Nobody who is concerned about another's well-being like this is anything at all resembling hateful. But those who would seek to isolate a person from their support would tell them it is, because it means they disagree with the beliefs that are being pushed.
Add in the NWO conspiracy stuff, the way a lot of comments from "long time readers but not commenters" came in not only with vapid support for such and her new hardline outlook, but also towards the end to attack anyone who criticized it or expressed concern...
Post by: Dilandu on March 23, 2021, 10:47:08 AM
BTW: first time here on the forum, you all sound like very nice, articulate, smart people.
Thanks!
Post by: thorny on March 23, 2021, 10:56:28 AM
If I might make a suggestion, and if people are comfortable with it, why don't you make a subreddit for this group? That would allow you to keep the structure of the comment section
When the snopes boards died, some of the survivors came over to a reddit. It never worked anywhere as well as the message board format, and while it's theoretically still alive, has had no posts at all for a month, and only a couple per month for some time before that.
If this board is entirely independent, and enough people want to keep it going, perhaps it could just change its name, and we could seek out other comics for discussion.
Post by: Crumpite on March 23, 2021, 11:18:33 AM
As much as I dislike Disqus, its format makes it easier to browse its contents and interject comments where you want too.
Róisín,
Don't worry about me leaving this group !
There are too many folks here that I consider friends 😀
I'm just bringing up contingency plans in case Minna turns SSSS into a right wing Christian conspiracy haven.
I've seen it happen before...
She's a grown adult and can make her own decisions about her life but I still grieve a bit and feel sorry for her.
That's the problem with old age, you've seen it all before but no one listens because you're just a doddering old fool 😀
Oh, and thanks for the compliment 😉
Post by: Selena on March 23, 2021, 11:27:14 AM
The irony of this is she's doing exactly what the comic and her words warn against.
You aren't "in" the social group then you are an un-person.
Not a christian that holds god and jesus above all? You're an un-person.
f.uck you too.
Not gonna support a fanatic that thinks I shouldn't exist just because I'm not christian.
Thought you were better than this. Guess I was wrong.
Post by: Marvin on March 23, 2021, 12:01:06 PM
Quote
I'm in no way affiliated with the forum, it's all fan-operated, and I don't visit there, so whatever the mods decide to allow is up to them, I don't mind.
So F.U. Fans and your forum?
Post by: Dilandu on March 23, 2021, 12:14:04 PM
Great way to tell your non-christian followers a huge "f.uck you" Minna. Bravo.
The irony of this is she's doing exactly what the comic and her words warn against.
You aren't "in" the social group then you are an un-person.
Not a christian that holds god and jesus above all? You're an un-person.
f.uck you too.
Not gonna support a fanatic that thinks I shouldn't exist just because I'm not christian.
Thought you were better than this. Guess I was wrong.
Sigh. And this only after one new member complimented the forum for civil, cultured atmosphere...
Could you please express your dissatisfaction in CIVIL way? Without insults?
Post by: Superdark33 on March 23, 2021, 12:18:44 PM
Sigh. And this only after one new member complimented the forum for civil, cultured atmosphere...
Could you please express your dissatisfaction in CIVIL way? Without insults?
the comic, the afterword, and the comments that followed it all show with no doubt that offense was fully meant to anyone who doesnt agree with the author, can you blame anyone for taking that offense?
Post by: viola on March 23, 2021, 12:33:26 PM
If you disagree with someone or agree with someone, explain why in a respectful tone. This lets us learn from each other. We're not all going to agree, and we're not going to be able to change everyone's minds. If you are feeling frustrated, then please step back and take some time away from this discussion.
If there is a post that you suspect is breaking the forum rules or is problematic, please report it rather than engaging. We have moderators for this very reason.
Post by: Maglor on March 23, 2021, 12:35:54 PM
What happened? Did Mina said smth wrong?
Post by: viola on March 23, 2021, 12:42:44 PM
Ok, I'm a bit buffled by all of this. Plus a bit of a slowpoke.
What happened? Did Mina said smth wrong?
Minna made a new mini comic which is linked in the first post of this thread. After the comic she details her reasons for making the comic and discusses her recent conversion to Christianity. The comments under the SSSS comic have been shut down and removed for the time being, and she has directed people here. You can read her post on the most recent page of the comic. She has also indicated that she is no longer going to make the City of Hunger video game.
Post by: moredhel on March 23, 2021, 01:23:43 PM
Guess I was wrong.
We all are wrong from time to time but in this case we can not be sure now. People can change their minds. People can be in an extremist mood and say or write things that are inappropriate.
I would recommend just to keep calm and patient. We will see then if it was an singular event than I would ignore it. If the future tone and content in Minnas publications is like the bunny comic, I will no longer consume it.
But at this point I think there is hope.
Post by: blabo on March 23, 2021, 01:24:14 PM
The comments under the SSSS comic have been shut down and removed for the time being, and she has directed people here.
I jump in to report that the thread under page 409 is actually still open and the conversation is ongoing. It became sort of a flame war between Christians who acritically profess themselves happy and proud of Minna's new comic (in a rather smug "and if you're not Christian why should you feel attacked in the first place" kind of way), and atheists trying to logically prove the non-existence of God as if this was the point in question.
Post by: thorny on March 23, 2021, 01:28:21 PM
As much as I dislike Disqus, its format makes it easier to browse its contents and interject comments where you want too.
Mileage varies.
Discus does make it easy to interject comments next to the particular post you want to reply to, even many hours later when the thread has long since moved on,. However, for me, that function makes it very difficult for me to browse contents, because I never know whether additional posts have appeared in sections of the thread I thought I'd already read.
Minna made a new mini comic which is linked in the first post of this thread. After the comic she details her reasons for making the comic and discusses her recent conversion to Christianity. The comments under the SSSS comic have been shut down and removed for the time being, and she has directed people here. You can read her post on the most recent page of the comic. She has also indicated that she is no longer going to make the City of Hunger video game.
Current page has comments shut down; but page 409 of the comic is still or again open for comments and is up to over 1500 as of my making this post. I don't know whether some of them have been removed.
This thread may well be easier to deal with. The problem many are having is not that she's converted to Christianity; but I won't go into everything all over again in this post.
Post by: moredhel on March 23, 2021, 01:30:15 PM
It became sort of a flame war between Christians who acritically profess themselves happy and proud of Minna's new comic (in a rather smug "and if you're not Christian why should you feel attacked in the first place" kind of way), and atheists trying to logically prove the non-existence of God as if this was the point in question.
That is exactly the sort of discussion in which everybody gets hurt. This is so sad.
Post by: orangewolf on March 23, 2021, 01:32:09 PM
I'm a former Christian and live in the US, so I can't help but view her "author's notes" at the bottom through the lens of someone very familiar with the evangelical "persecution" culture. This comic reminds me of the chick tracts (wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_tract)) I was cajoled (read: forced) into handing out as a teenager and of the world view pushed by LaHaye and Jenkins' Left Behind series with the pastiche of cute bunnies to make it palatable or endearing.
I think the thing that bothers me the most is that she went out of her went to create a clearly fantasy world but used the actual Bible. That alone says everything that this comic is trying to say. There is no subtlety in the message. It's not "social credit is bad" or "cancel culture run amok will ruin our lives" it's literally just "everyone hates Christians even though they are right and follow the one true god and are the only way to avoid hell".
Just... the part with the tweets talking about "the kind of people" that read the Bible and "what type of thinking" it can lead to... I just can't handle it. It's too on the nose about how modern day evangelicals in 1st-world countries with religious freedom think about how they are "unjustly" treated by "the mainstream".
The way she talks about how she "was" when she was atheist is also very telling. She says that she was obsessed with being superior others, and I can't tell that anything has changed from notes. Instead of feeling like she is better than others because she is smarter, she now feels better than others because she has moral superiority. I don't know anything about the author or her past, but this is how it all comes across to me from reading the comic and the notes that followed.
Post by: mate888 on March 23, 2021, 01:55:42 PM
lol
Post by: Ragnarok on March 23, 2021, 02:03:14 PM
Ok, I'm a bit buffled by all of this. Plus a bit of a slowpoke.
What happened? Did Mina said smth wrong?
The author's note at the end of the bunny comic, and, hell, the themes pushed by the comic, are very closely reminiscent of a particularly toxic breed of evangelical Christianity that is basically akin to an abusive cult. Minna then poured gasoline on the fire by posting a 'it's okay if you don't like this, I didn't know any better before I was saved so I have pity for you poor worthless sinners' in response to a large portion of the commentariat going 'hold the duck up this sounds like a cult, are you okay'.
Post by: MissMew on March 23, 2021, 02:51:31 PM
And then I read Lovely People and it triggered a really bad anxiety attack.
I grew up in an extremely abusive evangelical christian environment and that wording Minna uses about how were all such horrible sinners and only the grace of god can save us but we don't deserve love or anything good... yeah. There's some really bad memories in there.
I feel conflicted now. Like I should have a thicker skin and not let the author's private beliefs bother me when they don't have anything to do with the comic that I like. But on the other hand I just, feel like I can't trust the author anymore. I feel like I can't actually trust that she's not going to take a hard turn into crazy town and I'm going to pop in to see a new page and just be triggered again.
I'm probably not making a lot of sense. I'm mostly just writing this in an attempt to get it out of my head.
Post by: yung_chrysanthemum on March 23, 2021, 02:57:15 PM
I also wasn't aware that she intended to end SSSS after this arc -- it's vaguely implied by her comment on the latest page, but there's ambiguity.
Did she announce all this on a stream? Or can I just not read :V
Other people have already expressed my unease with the comic more articulately than I ever could. I didn't necessarily have any issue with the comic itself (though in retrospect the "Bible 2.0" interview is problematic), but the afterword was very jarring. I tend to just mentally disengage when I see content like that (but of course I wanted to come here and see the discussion...), because I guess I just subconsciously view it as toxic / unhealthy. I already know I need work, you don't need to tell ME to repent :)
But on the other hand I just, feel like I can't trust the author anymore. I feel like I can't actually trust that she's not going to take a hard turn into crazy town and I'm going to pop in to see a new page and just be triggered again.
I'm probably not making a lot of sense. I'm mostly just writing this in an attempt to get it out of my head.
I can definitely empathize with this. I think a lot of us have the same fear/concern.
Post by: Vulpes on March 23, 2021, 03:03:24 PM
Post by: mate888 on March 23, 2021, 03:05:09 PM
truly a horrible dystopia
(https://i.imgur.com/OTNs0Et.png)
also, does CoH being cancelled have anything to do with this comic? i thought it was just canned because minna isnt interested in vidya anymore
Post by: Lallicat on March 23, 2021, 03:06:38 PM
So, like a few people on here, I mostly just read SSSS and occasionally lurked in the comments.
And then I read Lovely People and it triggered a really bad anxiety attack.
Oh no, I hope you're okay now!
Post by: PyroDesu on March 23, 2021, 03:22:26 PM
also, does CoH being cancelled have anything to do with this comic? i thought it was just canned because minna isnt interested in vidya anymore
Not explicitly, but:
Among other statements in today's stream, Minna confirmed that she is abandoning work on the City of Hunger game.
Reasons given included her decision to give up playing video games herself, using her time for 'something more productive', and no longer having a goal of making money from sale of the completed game.
Most probable cause for all reasons given: the same thing that caused her to make Lovely People as it is, her turning to a seemingly highly-toxic and self-destructive faith. One that would encourage her to stop "sinful" hobbies like playing (and making) videogames, and treating her wanting to be able to support herself with it as avarice.
Post by: Maglor on March 23, 2021, 03:25:12 PM
But I still can't understand all the hype. Minna is not a crusader, she can't (and won't) ram into your place, yelling "DEUS VULT". Her oppinion is absolutely harmless for you, even if you disagree with this.
One can't simply mix her art and her believes. Plus:
There's that wery interesting indangered specie, a magical unicorn she used to make this comic. It's called freedom of speech. Don't you have anything else to do but being offended?
Post by: Vulpes on March 23, 2021, 03:35:12 PM
Post by: Maglor on March 23, 2021, 03:37:56 PM
But get offended by this? It's kinda... it's a low style maybe?
Post by: PyroDesu on March 23, 2021, 03:39:49 PM
Heh. Ok. That's kinda rude. I guess she either in this neophite rush, or just trolls us. And as far as I can tell, that's not how Christianity works.
But I still can't understand all the hype. Minna is not a crusader, she can't (and won't) ram into your place, yelling "DEUS VULT". Her oppinion is absolutely harmless for you, even if you disagree with this.
One can't simply mix her art and her believes. Plus:
There's that wery interesting indangered specie, a magical unicorn she used to make this comic. It's called freedom of speech. Don't you have anything else to do but being offended?
1: We're worried about her. She has a fanbase that cares about her well-being, and we're concerned. That's the major part of the "hype".
2: Her opinion, as expressed so far, is a horrifically toxic one that is dredging up significant trauma to a number of people. That's not "absolutely harmless".
3: She's the one explicitly mixing her art and her beliefs by making her art about her beliefs (even if she closes out SSSS as intended when she wrote this part, the fact is it's heavily implied it's over when this part is finished and any new work is going to be religious-themed).
4: Funny thing, we have freedom of speech too. Also, freedom of speech is not freedom from social consequences of your beliefs.
Post by: Maglor on March 23, 2021, 03:52:36 PM
Her opinion, as expressed so far, is a horrifically toxic one that is dredging up significant trauma to a number of people. That's not "absolutely harmless".
Didn't know, someone can be traumatized because someone else called him a sinner. It's not a sarcasm, I'm actually surprised by this vulnerability.
Post by: thorny on March 23, 2021, 03:53:04 PM
There's that wery interesting indangered specie, a magical unicorn she used to make this comic. It's called freedom of speech. Don't you have anything else to do but being offended?
There's that very interesting thing called freedom of speech. And the interesting thing about it is, people who are made angry and/or hurt by what someone said are allowed to use it too.
But get offended by this? It's kinda... it's a low style maybe?
By being told that there's only One Right Way to exist, and we're not doing it?
Plus which, a lot of us can't do it. So people are being told they're Wrong in their essence. To say nobody should get "offended" by that is to say that nobody should ever get offended about anything.
ETA: And "offended" hardly seems the right word for it, anyway. Some people have expressed worry about Minna. Some people have expressed serious pain. Some have expressed both in the same post. "Offended" is when you think your neighbor deliberately pretended not to see you in the supermarket.
Post by: Kitty on March 23, 2021, 03:58:40 PM
People are free to tell, they're offended, if they're offended.
But get offended by this? It's kinda... it's a low style maybe?
it's not only about it being offensive (which it is), it's also about triggering actual trauma many people suffered through by repeating what was in many cases said by the abuser.
it's sometimes hard for people who haven't been in such a situation to empathize, which is understandable, but maybe try and understand how some people might be traumatized by bad stuff that seems small and irrelevant to you.
it's not her religion being attacked here, we worry for her well-being (especially those that have been in such a situation and know how it goes) and we don't like the way she declared everyone and herself a sinner and a bad person. this isn't a healthy way of thinking, and it's mean to everybody that was going about their day for one moment and suddenly got whacked with an YOU ARE ALL EVIL AND ONLY SOME DESERVE SALVATION message.
Post by: Kitty on March 23, 2021, 04:02:20 PM
Didn't know, someone can be traumatized because someone else called him a sinner. It's not a sarcasm, I'm actually surprised by this vulnerability.
it's not just being called a sinner
it was in no way this extreme for me and it wasn't coming from my family, but for some people it was, so try and think at it this way: being told you're worthless and evil and bad, all day, every day, constantly, whether or not you believe. the only way for salvation is god, and you don't deserve it because you're so bad and horrible.
and it's even worse if you don't believe, because then you're also willingly bad and horrible, and people look at you condescendingly because you literally refuse the one correct thing there is in life.
it eats away your self esteem, self worth and positive image of yourself. literal poison for your mind.
Post by: PyroDesu on March 23, 2021, 04:03:10 PM
Didn't know, someone can be traumatized because someone else called him a sinner. It's not a sarcasm, I'm actually surprised by this vulnerability.
Growing up in an abusive environment is a major trauma. And unfortunately many, many abusive situations use religion as part of the abuse - justifying it, trapping the victim in it, perpetuating it...
Post by: Crumpite on March 23, 2021, 04:05:47 PM
Think about it: why are you offended about us being offended ?
By your logic you're as bad as us 😀
Part of this may be a cultural thing, here in the US toxic Christianity is rampant and folks are more sensitized to it and its signs.
Post by: Maglor on March 23, 2021, 04:09:25 PM
Post by: mate888 on March 23, 2021, 04:10:32 PM
i think a very big part of the negative reactions from this come frome experiences with the good old crazy american evangelicals that were so popular back in the 70s through 90s, and it led people who had bad experiences with those cults to associate specific parts of just normal christian teachings with those cults, but honestly from the perspective of a non-american from a place where those sorts of sects are more uncommon (and usually rather hostile to catholics so they rarely get much spotlight) i dont really see anything of what minna wrote in the comic as a red herring for one of those cults, the comic itself imo reads more like babylon bee than like a chick tract (which i heard some people copare this to, so i was a little bit disappointed when the comic didnt have an evil pope bunny for me to laugh at), and the beliefs and ideas expressed in the afterword didnt (at least to me) seem in any way harmful or toxic or something that could be in any way associated in any way with the crazy evangelicals people think minna turned to. to me, it seemed more that something a catholic or a lutheran would say rather than someone from, say, the westboro baptist church, and honestly i think the core message there that might have alarmed people could have been the implied proselitism part where she talked about spreading Christ's words but proselitism is also a very big part of the doctrine of 99,9999999999% of christian branches so its not really fair to associate that with radical cults, and honestly her finding a spirituality, even if you disagree with it or even if you dont respect that at all shouldnt worry you about ssss's future, since from what she said she began feeling a pull towards christianity in august last year and fully converted around november last year, so she has put out quite a lot of pages after her conversion and the story hasnt yet taken a considerable turn (which is again another way of telling she probably isnt from an american-style radical sect since the big focus she puts on pagan scandinavian folklore would probably be seen as evil to those people, considering they thought tolkien (also known as the most catholic guy on england since thomas moore) was satanic for taking inspiration from norse mythology for his books), so really, even if you cant like the author anymore i wouldn't worry about ssss being changed by this
as an aside and since i already committed to not using caps this is going to be very hard to read i'm sorry, i do think there's a decent message to take from the comic even if you're not christian or religious at all, since the central theme here is about freedom of expression and the people or groups of people that think they have the moral authority to curtail it for the masses' own good, more of a "dont play god" message than anything, and frankly could work (tho in my biased opinion not quite as well) if the bible in that comic was switched for the rigveda, the quran, thus spoke zarathustra, etc
so uh yea rant over
tl;dr: i liked the comic but if u didnt its ok dont worry about it
Post by: Dilandu on March 23, 2021, 04:11:03 PM
the comic, the afterword, and the comments that followed it all show with no doubt that offense was fully meant to anyone who doesnt agree with the author, can you blame anyone for taking that offense?
I have no problem with anyone taking that offense, but why couldn't we stay civil?
Post by: mate888 on March 23, 2021, 04:16:02 PM
why couldn't we stay civil?tbf we are in the internet, i'm suprised it wasn't less civil
Post by: Ragnarok on March 23, 2021, 04:20:39 PM
ok so extremely unpopular opinion but uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh i liked the comic
i think a very big part of the negative reactions from this come frome experiences with the good old crazy american evangelicals that were so popular back in the 70s through 90s
Who are popular now. And exist worldwide. Maybe look up what's happening in Eastern Europe rn?
Post by: Dilandu on March 23, 2021, 04:23:33 PM
Maglor, I think a lot of people are feeling blind-sided - they were expecting a light comic involving cute bunnies, about who-knows-what, the link appears with no description, they click it, and... well, I know as I read along I got increasingly uncomfortable, and reading her notes I became outright alarmed. I'm concerned for Minna - she seems to be in the grips of terrible self-loathing which can't be healthy - and I can understand how some people who had really bad experiences at the hands of similar religions would be quite upset. Yes, freedom of speech allows her to say these things, but it also allows everyone who is offended to say so, and why. It's the last part that I feel is getting short shrift in the p409 comments section (I gave up on it quite some time ago) but is being eloquently expressed by many here. I don't see anyone saying she should remove the comic, merely expressing their distaste and distress. And doing so helps some people process it.
Well, for me it was quite good all until the afterword. I realized, of course, the Christian messages into the comics, but I have no problems with it, and in the comics itself they were reasonably in place in "material vs spiritual" message. And... then I hit afterword, and everything kinda turned upside down. The afterword essentially turned the whole comics into blatant Christian propaganda of the most annoying kind.
The irony is, that without afterword, comics itself would probably leave only positive feelings, and quite possible even positive feelings toward Christianity. But afterword only managed to get everyone either (rightfully) insulted, or annoyed, worried for Minna's situation - and most clearly NOT positive toward Christianity in any way.
Essentially it was a perfect example how good intentions provide Hell with rather neat road system.
Post by: orangewolf on March 23, 2021, 04:26:33 PM
She can put whatever she wants to out on the internet, I don't think anyone is trying to stop her. But when you consume media that someone created and grow to have expectations about the content of it, I think it's fair to say that a major departure from it can be pretty shocking. I wasn't really prepared for what I read, and now I have to deal with the emotions it caused. Now I have to start wondering whether or not I will continue reading SSSS and should continue referring the comic to others.
As for being traumatized, I'm gay and grew up in a southern baptist household that went to church regularly. Aside from every adult in my life telling me I had to follow the Bible and accept Jesus as my personal savior or I would go to hell, I also literally lived in fear from the age of 10-14 of being kicked out of my house if my parents found out I was gay and repressed pretty hard until I started going to a public school and was able to come out and be supported by friends. Even after that I didn't tell my parents til I was in my 20's and living in another state.
I don't have a problem with religion in general, and know plenty of fine Christians, but the content of the comic, the words she used, and the things she wrote after are what made me associate it with "the bad side" of Christianity. What she wrote was not just sharing her faith, it was fearmongering and judgement. You can say that she is still new to her faith, but according to someone claiming to be her father, she was raised in a Christian home and she herself said she has been a practicing Christian again for 1.5-2 years. There's not really an excuse of ignorance or "new convert" over-eagerness for the way she is coming across. Not to mention she worked on this comic over multiple months and had plenty of time to think about it.
Post by: Dilandu on March 23, 2021, 04:28:16 PM
ok so extremely unpopular opinion but uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh i liked the comic
It's not an unpopular opinion; essentially many of Minions liked the comics. It was Minna's afterword, that created the whole mess.
Post by: Crumpite on March 23, 2021, 04:37:01 PM
Myself, I didn't care for the comic itself, though the art was wonderful, the message was crudely put.
This is a matter of taste I know and it's easy to accept others opinions about it.
The afterword though - ugh...
Post by: Maglor on March 23, 2021, 04:39:28 PM
Well, I don't want to judge her beliefs. I just hope it won't have to much impact on SSSS.
Post by: mate888 on March 23, 2021, 04:44:19 PM
Who are popular now. And exist worldwide. Maybe look up what's happening in Eastern Europe rn?i mean in this forum bro
It's not an unpopular opinion; essentially many of Minions liked the comics. It was Minna's afterword, that created the whole mess.well if you read later into the post you'll see i also said i personally didn't see anything bad with the afterword, most likely because i didn't see it from an american perspective since i dont have one and i dont think the finnish author of the comic has either
Post by: moredhel on March 23, 2021, 04:50:12 PM
.
One can't simply mix her art and her believes.
I have to admit I am not an expert for art, but I am sure that art always is, in some way expressing the personality and beliefs of its creator. And religion is improtant to people, so a change in an important part of her life can have effects on her art.
So besides the worries about her well being, there are worries she could go boticelli an throw her most 'sinful' works into the fire.
Post by: mate888 on March 23, 2021, 04:52:31 PM
I have to admit I am not an expert for art, but I am sure that art always is, in some way expressing the personality and beliefs of its creator. And religion is improtant to people, so a change in an important part of her life can have effects on her art.
So besides the worries about her well being, there are worries she could go boticelli an throw her most 'sinful' works into the fire.
Quote from: Minna today
THIRD: for those worried that I'll have a breakdown and nuke SSSS from orbit or change it in any way: no, don't worry. I'm finishing the story arc the way I've written it when I was an atheist, I'm sailing this ship neatly into its destination bay without crashing it into the dock if you will. And I'm not going to be putting political or other commentary on this website like i haven't before, so those of you who wish to just see how SSSS ends and then be done with me can do so in peace. In the meantime I'm going to be studying some theology and build up a good understanding to go on for my next project after SSSS has ended.I'd say so far we don't really have much reason to worry about that.
Post by: Dilandu on March 23, 2021, 04:53:11 PM
i mean in this forum browell if you read later into the post you'll see i also said i personally didn't see anything bad with the afterword, most likely because i didn't see it from an american perspective since i dont have one and i dont think the finnish author of the comic has either
I'm Russian. Personally, I see a big problem with afterword, being preachy to the point of being extremely annoying & essentially claiming for Minna the right to judge other peoples according to her subjective views.
Post by: mate888 on March 23, 2021, 04:57:17 PM
I'm Russian. Personally, I see a big problem with afterword, being preachy to the point of being extremely annoying & essentially claiming for Minna the right to judge other peoples according to her subjective views.I'm with you on the preachy part but I didn't see Minna being really judgemental to anyone other than herself there.
Post by: orangewolf on March 23, 2021, 04:59:40 PM
I'm with you on the preachy part but I didn't see Minna being really judgemental to anyone other than herself there.
"In conclusion: If you one day find yourself in that future utopia, where your purpose of life is consuming product and entertainment or pursuing vain goals of "bettering yourself", and nobody is allowed to say or write anything "harmful" anymore , remember this: your problem is your sin against God. But He is loving and merciful, and is still gathering his lost sheep, humble yourself and repent."
This feels pretty judgmental to me.
Post by: Dilandu on March 23, 2021, 05:08:12 PM
"In conclusion: If you one day find yourself in that future utopia, where your purpose of life is consuming product and entertainment or pursuing vain goals of "bettering yourself", and nobody is allowed to say or write anything "harmful" anymore , remember this: your problem is your sin against God. But He is loving and merciful, and is still gathering his lost sheep, humble yourself and repent."
This feels pretty judgmental to me.
For me too. The message is extremely blunt, and did not leave much space for interpretation.
Post by: Kis on March 23, 2021, 05:41:23 PM
well if you read later into the post you'll see i also said i personally didn't see anything bad with the afterword, most likely because i didn't see it from an american perspective since i dont have one and i dont think the finnish author of the comic has either
It's not necessary to be American or have trauma associated with some branches of Christianity to feel that at least some parts of Minna's afterword are toxic, mean, preachy, etc. If you don't understand what specifically can be seen as harmful, feel free to read (or reread) the posts here. It's okay if these things don't trigger you, but you must remember that for some people this problem is bigger than just cults.
As for proselytism: I have seen quite a few comments stating that from a Christian perspective (don't know if it's true for all Christians, most probably not) preaching and conversion can be considered an act of kindness. While I do have some issues with this statement, I respect the right to share one's faith, even in these forms. However, don't you think it should be consensual and respectful? For me and for many others it sure wasn't consensual, we were caught off-guard as there was no warning and no premise for Minna's speech. And as an atheist with depression who was forced to, as Minna had put it, 'seek something stronger', read 'self-help books' and try to vainly 'better' myself, I do not feel respected in the slightest.
Post by: tzelly on March 23, 2021, 06:58:20 PM
That being said, I'm very worried for Minna. To go from atheist to evangelical at what seems like a drop of a hat is alarming. Whats happening in her home life that caused this, I wander. I wish them the best, and I hope they get the help they need... but if things continue in this direction, I fear the worst.
Post by: Tarnagh on March 23, 2021, 07:23:03 PM
crazy american evangelicals that were so popular back in the 70s through 90sYou may not have noticed, but they didn't disappear in the '90s and they've been actively crawling out of the woodwork into our legislative bodies. This has been ongoing but it's become blatant since about 2015 not just in the US but everywhere these wackadoos have a presence, globally. They're frightening to anyone who grew up in the system of abuse they promote as being "godly." Kids who grow up in that toxic environment have self esteem issues at best and have killed themselves at worst because of the physical and mental torture they've endured.
And now, Minna broadsides us all with parroting that? Absolutely yes, we're worried about her because some of us know the signs of hyper-religious cults when we see them.
This reaction is visceral, for myself and a lot of other people here, apparently. There's nothing about "being offended" to this. It's about feeling that panic, fear, and anxiety as if we're about to get beaten for our failures™. Again.
This isn't about "being offended." At all.
Post by: Dan_Urios on March 23, 2021, 07:54:11 PM
I skimmed through the first 7 pages of this thread before replying (sorry for not reading it all with attention, all this gave me a headache so I'll try to be as brief as I can) so I hope I am not repeating anything anyone said before me.
As some of you may know I'm primarily a fanartist, so I haven't really gotten into any of these discussions before, but I think I need to share my fears.
The thing is, I haven't read the bunny comic; I plan to, but I'm still preparing myself for what's to come judging by your comments.
I apologize again if I'm all over the place while I gather my thoughts.
I feel selfish.
As a shipper I had my hopes up when the whole Emil and Lalli lost in the Silent World happened, I have done cosplay of them with a friend of mine, RPed them... and I was kinda hesitant to give those hopes up whenever Minna didn't specifically deny these "rumours". Adventure 2 arrived and that deep relationship seemed to vanish. Kinda raised an eyebrow, but didn't think much of it. Waited until it came back but insted Reynir was shoved in between.
This is, again, just me being me. Didn't say much in the comments to not look like a crazy shipper to you guys.
What I'm trying to say, I guess, is that this was a safe environment. I'm a trans bisexual ace person, and I was able to feel excited about the slight possibility of my gay ship becoming canon because I felt safe here. Everyone was always so cool and open, this has always been a very inclusive community and I love every second of my time whenever a new page is posted and I can read you guys. You are funny and super cool and talented.
I, as many of you before me, also started learning Finnish indirectly because of this comic. Of SSSS, I mean.
I'm sorry for being so disorganized here.
I don't want this to end.
Today I found myself planning the gifts for my friend's birthday, and the last two year's presents I have given him were the first two SSSS tomes. And I didn't want him to know I was organizing his birthday but I asked him "do you still want the third tome?".
He told me "Not yet. Wait until you see if she turns out to be anti-LGBT".
I spent countless hours dreaming about characters made by someone that may despise everything her own community represents.
I'm sorry, again, if my arguments don't hold the scrutiny. I understand you've build a solid discussion thread here and you can, EASILY, destroy me haha
For a second I wanted to leave this very beloved fandom and this very beloved comic behind.
Post by: Lenny on March 23, 2021, 07:58:27 PM
i mean in this forum bro
I won't mention which churches because it'll be too identifying. But they are both mainstream, neither are cults or evangelical, and it wasn't in the US. From 2000 until 2015. The first one had pedophilia going on, to the point where my parents went to the police at the first sign of anything remotely suspect, and we never ever had anyone from church babysit any of us. They also used housing, jobs, and visas as leverage to keep people in line, and had "spiritual camps" that essentially just used people for free labour. The second one misappropriated funds, didn't pay fulltime wages for fulltime work, had some truly awful things going on in its retirement home (but that's par for the course for many retirement homes, sadly), and tried to blackmail my family by telling us that we had to pay our entire mortgage back in full at once.
I take issue with the idea that Christianity is only good, and that people that have problems with it are wrong to have those problems, or must be overreacting. Telling people that the only way to save your soul is to accept the God in whose name you were kicked out of your home at 15, in whose name all your grandmother's savings were leeched, and in whose name your mother was prevented from divorcing her abusive, cheating husband doesn't go over well. Those aren't hypothetical, those are things my friends went through. Again, none of those happened in the US, and they weren't cults. I am still a Christian, and finally found an accepting place in the Anglican church, but ... yeah. People suck, and churches are a prime location for abusing and manipulating the vulnerable. The first church I mentioned used the idea that we as sinners are imperfect and can only find solace in God and the church as a way to control people, not to help learn and grow. (The second mostly used that as a way to get older people to donate inheritance money). The comic and afterword paint a very isolated view, peppered with things I recognise as warnings and conspiracies, and the note on the page is extremely dismissive. From a PR perspective it's not the worst way to handle things, and it's good to see she's not getting worked up or emotional, but it invalidates any other interpretation other than her own. I don't buy the idea that Minna from 5 years ago said and thought the same things as someone who left the Mormon church, watched their family get consumed by conspiracy theories pushed by their church environment, or someone who had to come out as GRSM in a conservative Christian environment.
Also (even) more personally the dogma that medication or psychiatric help is a sign of weakness and you should rely on God instead has seriously damaged my family. That one is particularly worrying, because whether on purpose or not, it ends up taking advantage of mental weaknesses and illnesses, and prevents people from getting the help they need. Worse, it usually tells people that it's their fault when inevitably it doesn't get better. If you need a prosthetic leg a relationship with God won't help you walk, and the same goes for mental illnesses and disabilities.
...you can't convert people by just telling them do this or else you're damned. That pushes people away, hard, and brings up some awful memories for many. At the very least you owe someone the courtesy of allowing room for their experiences to exist, and that didn't happen here for a lot of people. This was more along the lines of those tracts that seem like a dollar bill until you look closer. Maybe nice if you already agree with the message, but disappointing and a bit disrespectful otherwise, especially if you needed the money. And right now is a time where people need positivity. Dunno about everyone else and your COVID situations, but I've essentially been locked up for a year with a few respites *sighs*
I get that for a lot of people who read it there isn't much of a problem, if any. You can like it. I probably would have 15 years ago, too - it has some sweet characters (white bunny husband and teen bun especially, for me) and cute art and is far from the worst Christian story I've read. But combined with author's comments and notes it's not friendly to people outside that bubble, and seems to have been designed that way on purpose. And, well, SSSS attracts all walks of life, and isn't really where people would be looking for a fundamentalist Christian story.
I dunno. It sucks and it's tiring. I've relived a few things I was taking my time working through, that I didn't want to spend time on right now.
Post by: JoB on March 23, 2021, 08:43:04 PM
I jump in to report that the thread under page 409 is actually still open and the conversation is ongoing. It became sort of a flame war between Christians who acritically profess themselves happy and proud of Minna's new comic (in a rather smug "and if you're not Christian why should you feel attacked in the first place" kind of way), and atheists trying to logically prove the non-existence of God as if this was the point in question.And by now, we have "discussion" of the political figureheads being nothing short of either saint or satan. Ah, the irony: Politics talk, officially banned in the comments section by Minna for being too inflammatory, now pouring in as a mere side dish of the hotpot she stirred up herself.
reading through this and realizing shrek is probably censored in this universeDonkeys mate can match the fire-and-brimstone athletics, though ...
truly a horrible dystopia
(https://i.imgur.com/OTNs0Et.png)
Post by: phocena on March 23, 2021, 09:25:46 PM
If it makes anyone feel any better (not by much), I don't think Minna intended this comic as a way to convert other people. It feels more like someone venting after everything she felt attacked or threatened by. I'm a longish time Asian American reader and I remember feeling bad about how Minna handled the Emil incident. I was discomforted by Minna's response on the Black Live's Matter protests. In both of these events it wasn't what she initially said that bothered me, but her ambivalent/defensive response. How liberating would it be for everyone to just be wrong, and she could join a join a sheltered community away from everything that has criticized her. I'm not a Christian, but perhaps her decision to convert is informed by this past worldview.
I really hope Minna's dad's comment about inclusivity rings true. It definitely feels like she has internalized a lot of harmful messages but does not intend to directly insinuate e.g. that other religions are going hell. Unfortunately that's why discrimination is so hard to stop, many wouldn't personally attack someone but implicitly do so, then get defensive when confronted. Make no mistake I am angry about Minna's lack of understanding.
I will keep following Minna in case I was too generous and it takes a turn for the worse.
Post by: Sc0ut on March 24, 2021, 03:58:55 AM
I spent countless hours dreaming about characters made by someone that may despise everything her own community represents.
For whatever's worth, there are a lot of us who feel the same in the fandom - people that were attracted by the queerbaiting (I can now confidently call it that since I have zero hope of any sort of queer relationship happening in the comic now) and who still love the characters but have gone disinterested in the comic and/or put off by Minna's viewpoints on various things. There is and probably always will be a community on tumblr that understands and accepts this, where you can enjoy the characters and ships without it being implied that you also support Minna's takes. I know this doesn't make everything alright but I hope it's a small comfort at least. I'm in the same boat as you.
Post by: Pessi on March 24, 2021, 05:03:08 AM
i mean in this forum browell if you read later into the post you'll see i also said i personally didn't see anything bad with the afterword, most likely because i didn't see it from an american perspective since i dont have one and i dont think the finnish author of the comic has either
I am a Finn. I grew up in a very moderately Christian family, was baptised and confirmated as a member of the Finnish Lutheran Congregation and had a steady Christian faith until my late teens when I had amassed enough factual knowledge about the history of Christianity and the Bible to make it impossible for me to take the Christian "truth" for granted any more.
Never was I spoken to by anyone from the congregation like Minna speaks to us all through her comic and especially through it's afterword. The core message of our Lutheran church is not condemnation, it's not making people feel they are bad and worthless and can only find salvation through rolling humbly in dust begging for forgiveness, it's not blaming their sins for the things that are wrong in our world. Our church preaches God's love, it preaches we are all accepted and welcome as we are. It's main message is that all sins have already been forgiven, all we need to do is believe it.
Minna sounds like she has ended up in one of our fundamentalist revival sects. They often use that kind of doomsday language, see everyone outside their own small circle as doomed to perdition, despise the modern world around them for it's temptations and are often even in all their professed self-condemnation and humbleness smugly sure that they at least are among the saved souls unlike the sorrowless sinners around them.
This self-righteous fundamentalism is what I find offending about Minna's message. The comic itself is just naïve and illogical, it merely made me roll my eyes for its clumsy Sunday school tones. But combined with the afterword - and the fact there was nothing to warn about extremely preachy content beforehand - it made me feel the same kind of shock and disgust as when years ago, in my early teens, some random woman came to me on a train station eagerly urging me to find true Christian faith and come with her to her sect's shrine.
Add to this the fact that in Finland faith is a very private thing. Not religion, but the actual, personal faith. If you suddenly start talking about it in public and even pushing it to other people it's almost the same thing as if you'd dropped your trousers in the middle of a street and started pushing your genitals at passersby. It won't make anyone sympathetic to you and your cause, it just makes people really uncomfortable and embarrased for you.
Post by: Marvin on March 24, 2021, 07:37:45 AM
i do think there's a decent message to take from the comic even if you're not christian or religious at all, since the central theme here is about freedom of expression and the people or groups of people that think they have the moral authority to curtail it for the masses' own good
And you really don't see the bitter irony of replacing one oppressive system with another? Amazing.
P.S. A lot, maybe most, liked the comic in itself, but were quite shocked by the dogma (and the irony) that followed...
Post by: PyroDesu on March 24, 2021, 08:09:34 AM
I am a Finn.
...
Minna sounds like she has ended up in one of our fundamentalist revival sects. They often use that kind of doomsday language, see everyone outside their own small circle as doomed to perdition, despise the modern world around them for it's temptations and are often even in all their professed self-condemnation and humbleness smugly sure that they at least are among the saved souls unlike the sorrowless sinners around them.
Thank you for confirming that no, those of us who are not Finnish are not seeing the boogeyman of our own countries' fundamentalist Christian sects in Minna's words and actions, as has been claimed quite a bit.
On the other hand, it makes me even more worried for her, knowing that it is a distinct possibility.
Post by: Maglor on March 24, 2021, 08:30:01 AM
If so, Minna's "coming out" is indeed worrying.
Post by: Dan_Urios on March 24, 2021, 09:01:23 AM
reading through this and realizing shrek is probably censored in this universe
truly a horrible dystopia
(https://i.imgur.com/OTNs0Et.png)
also, does CoH being cancelled have anything to do with this comic? i thought it was just canned because minna isnt interested in vidya anymore
Wait, where is this from?
Post by: orangewolf on March 24, 2021, 09:35:18 AM
Wait, where is this from?
Story of Balaam. It's somewhere the first five books. IIRC god lets the donkey talk to tell off Balaam.
Post by: Vulpes on March 24, 2021, 09:47:57 AM
Wait, where is this from?
If you meant the image itself, and not the reference to the talking donkey (thanks orangewolf, I was wondering about its biblical origin!), then it's from the bunny comic itself.
Post by: danckert on March 24, 2021, 09:55:39 AM
I just necromanced my old account from 2015ish, so I'm both new here and not. Hi! I just read this whole thread, and like many others I feel a need to pour my thoughts out there. (I'm no good at using few words, sorry about the massive blocks of text!)
First of all, I too think the comic itself was fine. Hamfisted, unelegant, but fine. Then came the last page, and the author's note and it all went wild - the things I had thought odd suddenly made sense. Her notes are steeped in classic toxic evangelical thinking, which fits with the demonization of regular leftists views in the Bible 2.0 interview, the christian persecution complex and hating on things like yoga in the comic.
Some seem to think that Christians of this type only exist in the USA, as a Norwegian I can debunk that. Evangelical churches in America started sending their priests to travel the Scandinavian countries and build new evangelical societies more than a hundred years ago, and never stopped, still sending priests and believers back and forth. We have many "free churches", big and small, many of whom act in a way not far from what one sees in cults. I've lost several friends to them :( These grow in numbers as our lutheran church grows more accepting and lose their flocks. And they all seem to have a hotline to the worst Trumpist megachurch madness in the US.
I'm wondering if Minna has been drawn into a real life evangelical church, or fallen down the rabbit hole online? I may be projecting, but to me she always seemed dangerously depressed. No life, no sleep hygiene, living with family and doing nothing other than making (great) art, she seemed so vulnerable! Just pressuring herself on (and I sadly doubt the fandom pedestal she was put on helped). The terrible self-loathing fits, I've rarely met a depressed creative who didn't struggle with that. And that made her ripe for picking for predators. Some churches, much like some predatory men, seem able to smell insecurity, depression and and self-hate on people. They tailor their approach to that person and make it seem they have whatever the person needs and longs for - purpose, love, affection, a fitting narrative, being told they were right... To Minna they offered a coping strategy: yes, you are terrible, but everyone is terrible and God loves you! That's gonna be HARD to leave.
I wasn't aware of the Emil incident (and still don't know what she's said of BLM?) so I looked into it and WOW. O_o I find this worse than the bible thumping, how did the fandom recover? Every Asian kid in the west has had to hear that phrase. I asked a Finnish friend and they said it's widespread there, as it is in Norway. But her handling of it was REALLY bad. She could have simply said she was sorry for hurting people. This especially stuck with me:
Quote
There's simply too much that's considered offensive in some anglophone countries that I'm not aware of, and it's not a minefield that I'm keen on navigating, nor am I interested in the dumbing down that results from having to walk on eggshells around every single joke or avoiding jokes all together.
That doesn't bode well for how she'll handle criticism of the Zealot Bunniez. I guess we'll have to wait and see... Even if she finishes the story arc in a good way, we'll never have the additional story arcs that could have been. And as neither straight nor cis I won't be able to get the same reading experience, knowing that the author likely wants me and those like me to repent and abstain or burn in hell. :-\
Post by: Karaboudjan on March 24, 2021, 10:20:20 AM
Post by: Songbird on March 24, 2021, 10:24:25 AM
Thank you for confirming that no, those of us who are not Finnish are not seeing the boogeyman of our own countries' fundamentalist Christian sects in Minna's words and actions, as has been claimed quite a bit.
To be honest the fundamentalism wasn't the issue for me. Fundamentalism is an issue, make no mistake, but by the time that work got to it it had long lost me along the slumbering anvilicious descent that the story was, culminating in—
"...your problem is..."
No. Nope, no, nej, não, hard no. I don't care or condemn you, internet stranger, for finding the truth of your life, but do not presume to know anything about me. People who do know me, who I hold closely and dearly do not get the right to lord me over; to have someone who isn't even aware of my existence to loudly decry They Know Best and that includes knowing exactly what my failures are and what I have to do with my life is absurd. A lot of lines are being crossed way too fast right there.
One thing is to state what worked for you, another is to put it in a way this is the only—and right—way. There's an important distinction to be made here. That I hold someone's storytelling and artistic skills in the highest regard doesn't give them the permission to suddenly cross these boundaries. It's a betrayal of trust.
And the comments by supporters jumping out of woodwork didn't make it any better. Sure, I am wrong in failing to disentangle my reactions to the work and afterword and to those people's words, but there is a connection here. When fans explained the lack of any foreword about the content of the comic hurt and blindsided them these people said "That's the point.". According to them their faith asked them to try to draw in as many unknowingly people and attempt to convert them for their own good, with the unstated implication of this being because those of their faith know better.
In the next page/her maybe-father's comments they established she's aware of what was said by her audience. Thus not adjusting the comic presentation is deliberate. I can't help but feel there's a high possibility those new supporters are right about this, that this was the point. The point was leading people blindly in and crossing those boundaries, the point was to use our trust in her as an author and person to do something against out will. I do not like this at all.
Post by: Yuuago on March 24, 2021, 10:25:03 AM
I wasn't aware of the Emil incident (and still don't know what she's said of BLM?) so I looked into it and WOW. O_o I find this worse than the bible thumping, how did the fandom recover?
To put it simply, it didn’t.
A lot of people either left or drastically scaled back involvement in the fandom, including some of the most prolific fanwork creators. There were so many bad feelings all around, and both the level of fandom activity and the overall vibe were not the same after that.
This latest thing with the bunny comic is part of a long downward slide - the fact that it happened is not surprising, only the exact flavour of it.
Post by: Lueley on March 24, 2021, 10:29:50 AM
Was it a great story? No. Did it offend me? Also no.
As for the author's notes- I didn't get the impression she was being hateful. I've experienced hate-rambles from Christians first hand, and it's not really like that. She just seems very wrapped up in her new faith. The pandemic has driven us all to spend a lot of time in our own heads, thinking and sometimes overthinking. She's committed wholeheartedly to her newfound religion, and I can't blame her. Whether she eases up as her priorities rebalance, or goes fundie, I don't think any of us can tell.
I don't think it poses a risk to SSSS, she's generally a good writer (she does make her mistakes, but every artist does) and I don't think she'd change the storyline to fit her new religion. So it just seems best to leave her to it, since Lovely People was a one off and I don't think she's going to be making any conversion attempts. We've known for a long time that Minna's political views aren't really in line with the general fandom's. I hope I'm not being naive.
I'm really not shocked by her apparent anti-tech/anti-consumerist/primitivist tendencies. They say the artist can always be found reflected in their art, and we're talking about a woman who's spent nearly a decade writing a post-apocalyptic most-tech-has-been-destroyed "the vikings are back" webcomic. And there's nothing wrong with that. (How this makes the bunny comic anti-China I don't really understand).
What this means for Emil/Lalli fans like myself, well... I made my peace a long time ago that it probably wouldn't be made canon, and it doesn't have to be for us to keep enjoying it.
Anyway that's just my take.
Post by: blabo on March 24, 2021, 11:10:28 AM
To me the infuriating part of this whole debacle was not the "sinner" thing in the afterword, nor the fierce proselytism.
I'm willing to forgive even the most heavily loaded sentences as, say, clumsy use of English as a bridge language (I'm certainly in no position to cast any stone, but it clearly does not read as an essay written by a native speaker). While the message in itself is very clear, I can very well give the benefit of the doubt on the wording. For example, the very controversial line <<your problem is...>> (mentioned here just a few posts ago) was possibly intended in the sentence as
"if you feel like you're lacking purpose in life, turn to God"
rather than
"I know for certain that you DO have a problem".
Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe BOTH. Quantum physics. (https://www.gocomics.com/bad-machinery/2018/05/24)
To comment another point that came up in these pages and on disqus: honestly I can't completely relate to the apprehension towards Minna's conversion, her professed (and allegedly toxic?) self-loathing, and such. I think that most of us don't know Minna personally, we don't know which kind of person she is other than what she shares with us (what if she's *gasp* really evil? :P ), and I don't find it so fundamentally wrong to take a U-turn at some point in your life, take notice of the flaws in your behaviour and try and do better. And yes, if you do that in accordance with some religion, then the concepts of "flaw" and "sin" might overlap.
But more importantly- I don't... care that much?
I hope it's not impolite to say!
My appreciation of her work and her dedication has very little to do with my appreciation of her as a person (I don't know her!), or my interest in what she feels, other than the basic human empathy: it's good to know she's doing fine, it's sad to know she's not. Everything else (she sounds like she got caught up in ... / her words reveal that ... / I hope her family does ...) feels to me like an intrusion on something that is really, really not my business, and the fact that Minna made something public about herself does not grant me permission to speculate on this or other aspects of her private life.
Maybe this is a cultural thing.
This feeling is reciprocated in that Minna basically told us "feel free to go somewhere else to complain": how we feel is not her business and, as shocking as it can be, she's not there to please her fans. (A commendable philosophy for an artist imho)
In this sense, I don't need to identify with her, or even take interest in her system of beliefs in general, in order to enjoy her work.
A "Christian" story, published just in time for Easter, starring the most literal Easter bunnies you'll ever find, telling about the Passion of Jesus, the Denial of Peter and his Repentance, with a technocratic sauce on top...
... all of this is something I would personally not choose to read, but could enjoy for what it is. (After all, the art is stunning.)
I do understand that some people might feel betrayed about the sudden revelation in the afterword. Now the seal is broken, and we know that Minna - to a certain extent, at least - adheres to a system of values that systematically contributes to the oppression of minorities. Hence I understand the "I can't believe Minna hates me" reactions, although I must say that I personally find them a bit excessive (albeit legitimate): I think it's a mistake, in general, to assume that the creators of content we appreciate also share our same values, and if this issue is so central to me and the way I enjoy works of art, then *I* should do the homework in advance and do the relevant vetting on the artist. Of course I don't mean to dismiss people's trauma; I just think that one shouldn't unilaterally declare a place as a safe space, without knowing it is, and with little to do to make it as such (I'm explicitly setting apart the fan community from the artist here: we can be in control of what we write and how we interact with our peers, but we are not the ink in Minna's pen).
On the covid19-passport thing I really think we need to sort the wheat from the chaff; I actually believe that Minna touches a very interesting point when she states that people are collectively willing to tolerate more when in fear or in a time of emergency. This conversation does not intrinsically belong to conspiracy theorists and their environments; for example, as workers [European PoV here] we should not be forced to hear sentences like "what do you complain about?! you're lucky to even have a job during these times!" if we call out our employers on their shortcomings, infringements, mistreatment or exploitation (mind: I've heard these things being said). And when it comes to travelling [also: European PoV here; at some point in recent history we collectively decided that internal borders were not as much of a thing here as elsewhere], I could definitely agree with the point made e.g. in this article (https://www.bt.no/btmeninger/debatt/i/eKdlJQ/jeg-har-mistet-tilliten-til-staten-norge) (which unfortunately now seems to be placed behind a paywall! But maybe it's just because I've exceeded the maximum number of free articles) commenting on Norway's policy of shutting its borders close to an unprecedented extent, which people this affects the most, and how this creates a dangerous precedent for right-wing parties and how the local population basically did not bat an eye.
Of course, this has nothing to do with Christians being denied freedom of speech.
So, all the above is stuff that I'd put in my personal "it's not my thing" box.
If you found a religion, that's (of course!) fine by me. Whatever floats your boat.
If you want to enthusiastically talk about the good thing that you found in it, be my guest!
If you want to turn a blind eye to the past and very much present wrongdoings perpetrated under the banner of Christianity against minority groups and individuals... that's also ok-ish maybe? I'd argue you're not the first person who chooses to live in this way their own belonging to a Church or a religion.
That being said--
To me the disconcerting part was really the persecution complex emerging from both the comic and the afterword (<<and nobody is allowed to say or write anything "harmful" anymore>>), and the bit about Bible 2.0, the mockery about political correctness, gender-neutral language, <<And that's valid, sis!>>, and such, which felt really like a slap in the face.
And this was a premeditated slap. Because Minna had been going on about this side-project for months, and had never once mentioned what it was about. So it is clear that she intended to shock us. This makes me a bit unsympathetic towards those users on disqus who've been sending messages of "support" after the backlash, as to me it is evident that she knew very well what she was doing. And indeed, in a profoundly honest way, that's what she tells us:
Quote
for those of you who were worried that I'm upset or hurt by any things that have been said: don't be! I can't be upset, [...] So don't worry. I'm even surprised how non-hurt I feel, [...]
From a very personal perspective I need to report that I'm not welcome in the community I grew up in - a countryside village where one's social life completely revolves around the Default Religion - because I'm married to a person of the "wrong" gender. So while the "it's ok you're just a sinner" rethoric is something I can laugh about (and I'm sure not everybody can), the idea that, Anno 2021, Christians sit at the persecuted side of the table and they live under the looming threat of being violently silenced by the knights of political correctness is... well... just wrong, in any possible way. It might not hurt, but it does really feel like an insult. We didn't need this.
But I also see how confusing this outrage might look to some of those who profess themselves Christians. The sad truth is that Christianity often says A but it either lets itself be weaponized by people who say B, or hide under a broader, edulcorated, more digestible meaning of A while hiding its more violent traits. I couldn't possibly count the times I heard about tolerance (https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/taller) in church as a child-- which is ironic considering how it all ended for me.
At any rate, the massive divergence between opinions feels somehow like the most natural resolution of a story which presents a very blunt dichotomy "us good, incorruptible, persecuted, real, lovely" vs. "them bad, dishonest, malevolent, fake, unpleasant". The discriminating factor is dictated by religious dogma? Can't expect any less than fireworks.
At the same time I wonder whether the reactions would have been just as polarized, and whether all these (Christian) people on disqus saying stuff like "it's not a personal attack, why do you feel attacked" would have thought otherwise, had Minna disclosed that she converted to a religion that is less practiced in the countries where she's most read - say, Islam.
Post by: Dilandu on March 24, 2021, 12:21:35 PM
To put it simply, it didn’t.
A lot of people either left or drastically scaled back involvement in the fandom, including some of the most prolific fanwork creators. There were so many bad feelings all around, and both the level of fandom activity and the overall vibe were not the same after that.
This latest thing with the bunny comic is part of a long downward slide - the fact that it happened is not surprising, only the exact flavour of it.
Fortunately, I came long after the Emil crisis...
Post by: Maglor on March 24, 2021, 12:25:15 PM
Post by: Dalahästen on March 24, 2021, 12:26:41 PM
As many, I am usually a "silent reader". I know Minna technically owes us nothing, but can't help to join the bandwagon of people who are worried her current work in SSSS has a ton of content that orthodox religious people would view as herectic. I have seen artists completely wipe their work off public domain after being advised by a priest or pastor that their work was deemed "wrong" in the eyes of the faith -- such as the game Memohuntress, which was a masterpiece in both visuals and soundtrack and that no longer exists by legal means due to the conversion of its creator.
A pity. I still treasure my signed physical copies but... will I be partaking in future crowdfundings? That will greatly depend on how she deals with this backlash.
Post by: houstinhobby on March 24, 2021, 01:16:00 PM
I'm a long term reader of the comic and supporter via the kickstarters. I love Minna's style of work and I love post apocalyptic everything.
This comic was ridiculously in tune with what is happening in China right now with the rollout of their social credit system. It was wonderful to see someone in the West notice what is happening there and create so passionately about it.
Thank you Minna. This was amazing.
Post by: Dilandu on March 24, 2021, 01:21:40 PM
What's the Emil crisis?
If I understood correctly (it was long before I started to read SSSS), it was related to page 549 of the first adventure:
(http://www.sssscomic.com/comicpages/549.jpg)
In the initial version, Emil used not the "kung fu", but a word, which apparently is derogatory slur toward Asians (I do not know for sure, since such slang obviously is not used in Russia). A lot of peoples took offense, to which Minna apparently reacted badly, and many minnions left the fandom. In the end, the phrase was replaced with "kung fu".
*edited by mod-Gwenno to remove slur in question (it's quite an unpleasant one, and I don't want our Asian Minnions to stumble upon it without expecting)
Post by: Rowan on March 24, 2021, 01:56:00 PM
* Minna identifies as Christian, but doesn't provide the sect. Considering there's absolutely no universality between sects, this is really confusing. Where I'm from, 'Christian' ranges from people in denim robes feeding the homeless, to people who handle venomous snakes while speaking glossolalia. It's really disingenuous to just say 'Christian', Are you christian in the same way that the people who believe owning slaves remains god's will are christian? Are you christian in the way that people who believe in having sex with your clergy are christian? Are you christian in the same way that people who belive that the core theology of their religion changes from issue to issue of their magazine are christian? The lack of definition is -really- confusing.
* The bunnies read the bible and are unsettled when it's shifted to version 2.0. Which version were the bunnies reading? That text has as many variations as there are sects. Which books are included in the bunny bible? How many versions were there before? What changed?
* What is the point of reading the bible? Why is it important to any of them? How does it inform their behavior or actions? I'm not seeing a connection between the reading and the importance.
* The bible passages refereced in Lovely People seem to only work if you're heavily invested in the faith already. Trying to present christianity with shibboleths doesn't seem like it's very useful to present an apologetic. Lovely people, for its condemnation of society, seems dependent on society already having a more than working knowledge of the faith. Much like a Jack Chick tract, the target audience seems less outsiders, than crafting a 'no true scotsman' fallacy for anyone other than Minna who might present as chrisitian.
* Why do the bunnies flee the society? Where do they go? The only reason that Christianity permeated europe wasn't the exiles, but the incorporation of Christianity into the Roman middle class, and its spread across the empire. It looks like the Christian bunnies seem to have no obligation to help the 'un-people' or those suffering from the system. This seems to refute so much of Gospel and post-gospel writing. How is this reconciled? Even at their most 'holy', these bunnies are only concerned for themselves, and their immediate families. So, going back to my initial point....What sect believes this? And why isn't that sect addressed and examined?
Post by: Dilandu on March 24, 2021, 02:47:05 PM
* Why do the bunnies flee the society? Where do they go? The only reason that Christianity permeated europe wasn't the exiles, but the incorporation of Christianity into the Roman middle class, and its spread across the empire. It looks like the Christian bunnies seem to have no obligation to help the 'un-people' or those suffering from the system. This seems to refute so much of Gospel and post-gospel writing. How is this reconciled? Even at their most 'holy', these bunnies are only concerned for themselves, and their immediate families. So, going back to my initial point....What sect believes this? And why isn't that sect addressed and examined?
Well, the sinister idea would be to have the World Council to covertly establish some sort of "hidden village" to where the dissidents fled. Supporting a small number of dissidents is not actually a noticeable strain on the productive consumerist society; on the other hands, non-conformists are self-excluded from society and would not attempt to do something more dangerous (like staging a revolution or organizing a terrorist underground).
Post by: Sc0ut on March 24, 2021, 02:53:34 PM
* What is the point of reading the bible? Why is it important to any of them? How does it inform their behavior or actions? I'm not seeing a connection between the reading and the importance.
This is a really good comment imo. As someone born into the Christian Orthodox faith (now an atheist), what struck me both about the comic and about Minna's message was how her flavour of Christianity doesn't seem to put any emphasis whatsoever on good behaviour, however they might choose to define it. In fact, for certain readings of her afterword, it seems that she/they might even see the attempt to treat people better as vain and futile "self-improvement" (which she very clearly states she looks down upon). So her faith allows her to a) not feel bad about any flaws she identifies in her, since everyone else is "sinful" anyway b) not feel the need to improve on them because the only act that really matters is accepting god's forgiveness, and she's done that already c) still feel superior to a vast majority of people purely due to her being a "true believer", unlike them, without lifting a finger or changing much of her lifestyle really and d) allow her to feel oppressed, if she so chooses, by the fact that society doesn't follow the same moral code. I may be wrong about all this and/or she may change her approach as she refines her thoughts about her faith, but this is where I feel she is right now (and the invulnerability to criticism she claims on her formal announcement for the bunny comic supports this). It looks like she adopted all of the worse things from Christianity without retaining almost any good ones. I can't say I have as much experience with fundamentalist groups like other people who have commented, but even so it's obvious to me that this is a mindset that allows people to harm others or just generally be terrible in the name of their religion. I am.... put off to say the least.
Post by: Rowan on March 24, 2021, 03:04:24 PM
Well, the sinister idea would be to have the World Council to covertly establish some sort of "hidden village" to where the dissidents fled. Supporting a small number of dissidents is not actually a noticeable strain on the productive consumerist society; on the other hands, non-conformists are self-excluded from society and would not attempt to do something more dangerous (like staging a revolution or organizing a terrorist underground).
That's a thought. Especially since again it ensures that the dissident bunnies don't actually -help- anyone. If this theology is consistent, it's not unlike the social app. Since the christian bunnies don't get any 'points' for providing aid, they choose not to do it. Because the last thing Christ would ever do is help the least of mankind. Again, I'm -dying- to find out which sect this is, which sect it split from, which bible is the 'acceptable' version, which books are in the acceptable version, and if it's hebrew/greek to finnish, latin to finnish, english to finnish, or some other game of linguistic telephone.
All I know so far is:
- The sect believes in the same ZOG conspiracy theory that's gone on since the 1700's
- The sect has a vaguely lutheran bent
- The sect uses 'Christian' and 'Bible' as terms that require no further explanation
- The sect is a -huge- believer in the 'no true scotsman' fallacy.
- The sect believes only in testimoy as a christian identifier rather than action, which at the very least shows which chapters and books of the Bible they choose to ignore.
- The sect believes isolation is preferrable to care, compassion, and change.
Post by: Rowan on March 24, 2021, 03:10:43 PM
This is a really good comment imo. As someone born into the Christian Orthodox faith (now an atheist), what struck me both about the comic and about Minna's message was how her flavour of Christianity doesn't seem to put any emphasis whatsoever on good behaviour, however they might choose to define it.
None of James' writings seem to be part of the sect's bible.
Quote
In fact, for certain readings of her afterword, it seems that she/they might even see the attempt to treat people better as vain and futile "self-improvement" (which she very clearly states she looks down upon).
Testimony only. Faith and love are not dynamic. You have to declare your faith, find means to use media to project your testimony, but acting with love and care is vanity.
Quote
I am.... put off to say the least.
But the bunnies are -soooooo- cute!
Post by: Dilandu on March 24, 2021, 03:27:54 PM
That's a thought. Especially since again it ensures that the dissident bunnies don't actually -help- anyone. If this theology is consistent, it's not unlike the social app. Since the christian bunnies don't get any 'points' for providing aid, they choose not to do it. Because the last thing Christ would ever do is help the least of mankind. Again, I'm -dying- to find out which sect this is, which sect it split from, which bible is the 'acceptable' version, which books are in the acceptable version, and if it's hebrew/greek to finnish, latin to finnish, english to finnish, or some other game of linguistic telephone.
All I know so far is:
- The sect believes in the same ZOG conspiracy theory that's gone on since the 1700's
- The sect has a vaguely lutheran bent
- The sect uses 'Christian' and 'Bible' as terms that require no further explanation
- The sect is a -huge- believer in the 'no true scotsman' fallacy.
- The sect believes only in testimoy as a christian identifier rather than action, which at the very least shows which chapters and books of the Bible they choose to ignore.
- The sect believes isolation is preferrable to care, compassion, and change.
Yep. And allowing them to self-remove from society, State essentially get rid of potentially dangerous dissidents (who otherwise may start to make bombs & Molotov cocktails), without the need to resort to outright repressions. Imprisoning dissidents, exiling them, or just killing always cause uneasiness in society. But if dissidents are essentially exiling themselves, without any outright repressive actions from the government? Essentially they would just brand themselves as bunch of self-centered weirdos, who cared only about their "righteousness".
So yes, it's a very efficient way to vent out dissent. All the State essentially need, is to anonymously provide dissidents with small amount of vital supplies, so they would not attempt to go back.
Post by: Dilandu on March 24, 2021, 03:29:58 PM
This is a really good comment imo. As someone born into the Christian Orthodox faith (now an atheist), what struck me both about the comic and about Minna's message was how her flavour of Christianity doesn't seem to put any emphasis whatsoever on good behaviour, however they might choose to define it. In fact, for certain readings of her afterword, it seems that she/they might even see the attempt to treat people better as vain and futile "self-improvement" (which she very clearly states she looks down upon). So her faith allows her to a) not feel bad about any flaws she identifies in her, since everyone else is "sinful" anyway b) not feel the need to improve on them because the only act that really matters is accepting god's forgiveness, and she's done that already c) still feel superior to a vast majority of people purely due to her being a "true believer", unlike them, without lifting a finger or changing much of her lifestyle really and d) allow her to feel oppressed, if she so chooses, by the fact that society doesn't follow the same moral code. I may be wrong about all this and/or she may change her approach as she refines her thoughts about her faith, but this is where I feel she is right now (and the invulnerability to criticism she claims on her formal announcement for the bunny comic supports this). It looks like she adopted all of the worse things from Christianity without retaining almost any good ones. I can't say I have as much experience with fundamentalist groups like other people who have commented, but even so it's obvious to me that this is a mindset that allows people to harm others or just generally be terrible in the name of their religion. I am.... put off to say the least.
Quite... accurate analysis, I must say. Which made it especially worrisome...
Post by: Sc0ut on March 24, 2021, 03:30:34 PM
But the bunnies are -soooooo- cute!
Yes gotta love how the pretty art and semi-famous author force people to pay attention to, and say nice things about, a pamphlet that they wouldn't give the time of day otherwise.
Post by: Dilandu on March 24, 2021, 03:36:45 PM
But the bunnies are -soooooo- cute!
Well, not for Australian, who wage unrestricted biological warfare against their rabbit population (with strains of lethal pathogens produced in laboratories and mass-released on regular basic) since XIX century... ;)
Post by: Rowan on March 24, 2021, 03:48:10 PM
So yes, it's a very efficient way to vent out dissent. All the State essentially need, is to anonymously provide dissidents with small amount of vital supplies, so they would not attempt to go back.
It's hard being an American and reading 'SOCIAL MEDIA TOOK MY UBI AWAY!!!! >_<', and realizing that the exiled bunnies still have more rights and privileges than anyone I know.
Post by: PyroDesu on March 24, 2021, 03:48:59 PM
None of James' writings seem to be part of the sect's bible.
Testimony only. Faith and love are not dynamic. You have to declare your faith, find means to use media to project your testimony, but acting with love and care is vanity.
Oh, I think we're missing more than just James, if I recall correctly.
Matthew is, at the very least, mutilated. Because between Matthew 6(:5) and Matthew 25(:31-46), that second statement should be reversed - declaration of faith and testimony is a private matter, and works of mercy paramount.
Post by: Rowan on March 24, 2021, 03:54:50 PM
Oh, I think we're missing more than just James, if I recall correctly.
Matthew is, at the very least, mutilated. Because between Matthew 6(:5) and Matthew 25(:31-46), that second statement should be reversed - declaration of faith and testimony is a private matter, and works of mercy paramount.
My heart <3 THANK YOU.
Post by: Songbird on March 24, 2021, 04:15:38 PM
Yep. And allowing them to self-remove from society, State essentially get rid of potentially dangerous dissidents (who otherwise may start to make bombs & Molotov cocktails), without the need to resort to outright repressions. Imprisoning dissidents, exiling them, or just killing always cause uneasiness in society. But if dissidents are essentially exiling themselves, without any outright repressive actions from the government? Essentially they would just brand themselves as bunch of self-centered weirdos, who cared only about their "righteousness".
So yes, it's a very efficient way to vent out dissent. All the State essentially need, is to anonymously provide dissidents with small amount of vital supplies, so they would not attempt to go back.
Now, that's a story I'd like to read. I can think of many occasions in which allowing self-exile has happened in the past but the premise of a government that not only purposely guides but aides the opposition towards this goal is intriguing.
Post by: Rowan on March 24, 2021, 04:24:31 PM
Now, that's a story I'd like to read. I can think of many occasions in which allowing self-exile has happened in the past but the premise of a government that not only purposely guides but aides the opposition towards this goal is intriguing.
Plymouth Colony, North America.
Liberia, Africa.
Pretty sure there are others, but those two popped up in my historical brain.
Post by: Songbird on March 24, 2021, 04:42:13 PM
Plymouth Colony, North America.
Liberia, Africa.
Pretty sure there are others, but those two popped up in my historical brain.
This is different. A bit closer to Liberia or the current practice of states in US of busing the homeless to different parts of the country, but still different.
I don't know if I'll be able to accurately express this, but it's the stealth aide detail. The people leaving are none wiser of both the ultimate goal of the government (make them leave) or the help in achieving this they received. They believe it's their own idea and merit. They're also technically not at the bottom of the society, though they're fleeing to avoid this loss of status. How a government would even justify this for the circle of people in power, or their absence to the society in general, or ensure they wouldn't return; what's the impact of these people in the outside world—is it empty? If yes, why? If not how will things unfold (likely bad if history is any indication)?
Post by: PyroDesu on March 24, 2021, 05:38:41 PM
My heart <3 THANK YOU.
I may no longer believe, but I was raised in the Methodist church, and actually still attend services on occasion for my grandparents' sake (besides, some of the liturgy is fascinating even from an atheist perspective).
John Wesley was apparently fond of the Gospel of Matthew. Show the world the way of God by doing good works in His name, not by spitting fire and brimstone. Sure, it's still evangelical, but I think it's a much more tolerable form.
Post by: thorny on March 24, 2021, 05:45:59 PM
Didn't know, someone can be traumatized because someone else called him a sinner. It's not a sarcasm, I'm actually surprised by this vulnerability.
i think the core message there that might have alarmed people could have been the implied proselitism part where she talked about spreading Christ's words but proselitism is also a very big part of the doctrine of 99,9999999999% of christian branches so its not really fair to associate that with radical cults
Coming back to this -- I do think there's a difference in perceived meaning of the same words going on here.
I think a lot of Christians who are used to hearing 'we are all sinners' in non-toxic churches read that as 'nobody's perfect, but that's OK because Jesus will forgive you'; and also assume that accepting Jesus as God is something that anybody can do, plus maybe that everyone will get another chance to do so at or even right after the last minute, plus I think in some churches that maybe Jesus will forgive you anyway.
While a lot of the rest of us are hearing 'you deserve to burn in Hell forever and also to have whatever troubles you have while alive in this world, because there is something essentially Wrong about you, and you aren't doing something to fix it which is in fact impossible to do.'
Some Christian congregations really do preach that eternal torture; others seem to find some way out of it. Minna reads a great deal as if whatever she's converted to is likely to be of the first sort.
To start off with: people can't just decide to believe something. I can't just decide to believe, at least without massive injury to my brain, that there are no cats that are expecting me to feed them and will be seriously upset if I don't, or that it doesn't matter how upset they are. (Fill in young children, if you've got any, instead of cats, and try it.) And I am no more capable of believing that Jesus of Nazareth was and is the one and only God of the Universe than I am of believing that Arthur of Britain is. Or that my brother-in-law is. I could lie to humans about it, sure, and start going to church. But if the God they believe in is real: that God would know I was lying, and would presumably punish me just the same. (And lying to humans wouldn't even get humans off my back, since there must be hundreds of different Christian and Muslim and for those born Jewish even a few Jewish sects that are all telling me I must follow their particular version or be doomed. Reducing that number by one wouldn't remove the problem.)
So what I'm being told to do, in order to stay out of Hell or even according to Minna (and, over human history, quite a lot of people with more power than Minna) to have a half way decent life right here, is to do something flat out impossible.
And that's for those of us who are cis hetero! but just aren't Christian, and don't have some other inwoven religious identity. For those who are not, whether or not they're Christian in a denomination (they exist) which accepts this: they're being told by those religious people who don't accept it that the very essence of their being is an abomination to the entire universe; that they are indeed, existentially and inescapably, Wrong. Not wrong like parking in the wrong place and you get a ticket. Not wrong like being bad at math, or even not studying, and failing the test and having to repeat a grade, or not get the job you wanted. Not wrong like well, nobody's perfect. Wrong like being rejected by the universe, and deserving to be tortured for all eternity. For not being somebody that you find it impossible to be.
For some who are of other religions, the religion may be interwoven with daily life, sense of place, sense of self in such a way as to give the same reaction. Religion may not be separable from their sense of who they are. And no, that doesn't mean they automatically think the same way as Minna's thinking, just filling in something else in the place of "Jesus": lots of people don't think that everyone has to be the same person, or to be a member of their religious group, however strongly they feel that they have to be part of it.
as an aside and since i already committed to not using caps this is going to be very hard to read i'm sorry,
I don't know why you're committed to not using caps; but as you're apparently not committed to not using either punctuation or paragraph breaks I'd strongly recommend using a great deal more of both of them.
i think a very big part of the negative reactions from this come frome experiences with the good old crazy american evangelicals that were so popular back in the 70s through 90s,
As others have said; they haven't gone away. Not only have they not gone away, they've had, or been used to have, major and IMO strongly negative effect on our politics, which includes plenty of attempts (some of them successful) at imposing viewpoints of one particular branch of Christianity on the supposedly secular society as a whole.
And others have pointed out that this isn't only a USA problem.
so she has put out quite a lot of pages after her conversion and the story hasnt yet taken a considerable turn ([ . . .] so really, even if you cant like the author anymore i wouldn't worry about ssss being changed by this
It's hard to tell, as we don't know what either the overall arc or the details of the story would have been if she'd written it without this influence. The fact that she hasn't had everybody in the comic convert to Christianity or be destroyed for not doing so doesn't mean that there haven't been any changes; and as I doubt she had every detail written out in advance, there may be important changes in detail even if the overall arc remains the same.
But in any case -- she's now apparently going to end SSSS once she gets to a stopping point in this particular story; and she apparently originally intended to continue it for some significant number of additional stories. I'd call that quite a large change.
i do think there's a decent message to take from the comic even if you're not christian or religious at all, since the central theme here is about freedom of expression and the people or groups of people that think they have the moral authority to curtail it for the masses' own good, more of a "dont play god" message than anything, and frankly could work (tho in my biased opinion not quite as well) if the bible in that comic was switched for the rigveda, the quran, thus spoke zarathustra, etc
It's kind of hard to take that message when the specific Bible passage that the characters object to having changed is the one that says Jesus is the only way to salvation; and when her afterword says the same thing.
Yes, she could have written the comic you're describing; and could have done so with only a few changes from what she actually published. But what she published isn't the one you're trying to see there.
I have no problem with anyone taking that offense, but why couldn't we stay civil?
I think nearly everyone here has done so.
As a shipper I had my hopes up when the whole Emil and Lalli lost in the Silent World happened, I have done cosplay of them with a friend of mine, RPed them... and I was kinda hesitant to give those hopes up whenever Minna didn't specifically deny these "rumours". Adventure 2 arrived and that deep relationship seemed to vanish. Kinda raised an eyebrow, but didn't think much of it. Waited until it came back but insted Reynir was shoved in between.
[ . . . ]
I spent countless hours dreaming about characters made by someone that may despise everything her own community represents.
I'm sorry, again, if my arguments don't hold the scrutiny. I understand you've build a solid discussion thread here and you can, EASILY, destroy me haha
For a second I wanted to leave this very beloved fandom and this very beloved comic behind.
Please don't be afraid to raise your voice here.
I think you've made an important point, and an interesting connection. I don't know whether Minna's actually changed what she originally intended to do with relationships among the characters; but she may well have made such changes while still saying she's not going to change the overall story arc; she may just have convinced herself that they weren't an important part of the story. This is just a supposition, as we've got no way to tell; but I wouldn't be at all surprised if she's doing things differently in portions of the comic that weren't already plotted out in detail, quite possibly without ever thinking of this as changing the comic.
I remember feeling bad about how Minna handled the Emil incident. I was discomforted by Minna's response on the Black Live's Matter protests. In both of these events it wasn't what she initially said that bothered me, but her ambivalent/defensive response. How liberating would it be for everyone to just be wrong, and she could join a join a sheltered community away from everything that has criticized her.
I must have managed to miss the BLM response. I agree with you about the Emil incident. Minna seemed incapable of just saying 'Whoops, sorry, I was wrong, I apologize and I'll change it!'; instead we got this entire defensive reaction in which she changed it, hid the evidence, and deleted a lot of the comments -- and then announced that she wouldn't include in SSSS anything at all involving anybody other than white Scandinavians (not in those words, but that was the sense) because if she did people might accuse her of getting something wrong.
I hoped she'd grow out of it. Instead, she seems to have gone further into it. Now it's 'nothing you say can affect me because I'm sure I'm Right.'
And I wonder whether she was drawn in to where she is now because whoever she's been talking with about it saw that response to the Emil incident, and saw someone with a significant following and major talent who could be pulled into a group who would tell her 'of course you were right about that joke, nobody should ever have criticized you for that' - -
This comic was ridiculously in tune with what is happening in China right now with the rollout of their social credit system. It was wonderful to see someone in the West notice what is happening there and create so passionately about it.
If she'd stayed with a critique of the social credit system in China, I might well have spent a chunk of the time I've spent posting in this thread with investigating what I could find out about that; and we might well have been having a lively discussion about it on these boards.
But framing it as 'the only possible alternative to everyone praising the Consumerist State is for everyone to praise Jesus of Nazareth instead' pretty massively diminishes the impact of anything she might have been saying about specific things going on in China.
Well, the sinister idea would be to have the World Council to covertly establish some sort of "hidden village" to where the dissidents fled. Supporting a small number of dissidents is not actually a noticeable strain on the productive consumerist society; on the other hands, non-conformists are self-excluded from society and would not attempt to do something more dangerous (like staging a revolution or organizing a terrorist underground).
The really sinister idea would be to have the World Council occasionally kill everybody in that village off, re-seeding it with a few of its inner circle (assured, truly or falsely, that they'd survive and be rewarded) to welcome the next batch of dissidents until enough of them built up to be worth also finishing off. That wouldn't disturb the main society, because they wouldn't know anything about it; and it would remove any chance of a genuine reform movement developing and being brought back to the Council's people. Not to mention limiting any need for supplies.
Obviously, that's not what Minna intends to happen to her True Believers. But if I were running from that sort of society, I wouldn't stay too long where the Convenient Map had led me, if I went there at all.
Post by: yung_chrysanthemum on March 24, 2021, 08:20:22 PM
But in any case -- she's now apparently going to end SSSS once she gets to a stopping point in this particular story; and she apparently originally intended to continue it for some significant number of additional stories. I'd call that quite a large change.
Do we actually know that this is the case, or are we just "reading between the lines" on her last post?
Such a shame if that's the case. This current arc is clearly going to close out the Hotakainen story, but not offer much closure on the world itself. The big unknown of what the Y90 people are going to do with the Y0 cure left unexplored forever :(
Post by: thorny on March 24, 2021, 09:39:29 PM
Do we actually know that this is the case, or are we just "reading between the lines" on her last post?
I find it hard to read anything else into these portions of her note on the page 410:
Quote
I'm sailing this ship neatly into its destination bay without crashing it into the dock if you will.
[. . . ] SSSS will continue as normal until its end, and then I'll see where God takes me for the next project.
And I'm pretty sure someone at some point in this thread or in the page 409 comments has referred to something she said elsewhere, but I no longer remember where that was.
But I really can't see her waiting for multiple years for the next project, which would certainly be needed if she did several more story arcs in a similar fashion to the previous ones. Adventure 1 ran for nearly 5 years (date on the first strip is November 11, 2013; on the last, October 8 2018). Adventure 2 is currently at about 2 1/2 years (date on the first strip is October 14, 2018). I really don't see her waiting even another 2 1/2 years for her "next project"; let alone then doing multiple further adventures. I think this one is going to be wound up a lot faster than that, and there won't be any more.
Post by: catbirds on March 24, 2021, 11:03:25 PM
Adventure 2 is currently at about 2 1/2 years (date on the first strip is October 14, 2018). I really don't see her waiting even another 2 1/2 years for her "next project"; let alone then doing multiple further adventures. I think this one is going to be wound up a lot faster than that, and there won't be any more.
She mentioned during a stream that a big part of the reason why the first adventure was longer was because there was a lot of setup for the plot. Since the second adventure is more direct to the action, I think she mentioned something about it only being approximately three books long instead. That means we have around a year to a year and a half left of SSSS (approximately 800-900 pages total?).
Unless she'll shorten it, which would still be kind of sad but not unforeseen. I know I wouldn't have any interest in whatever she writes next, but that's just how it is. That being said, I'm glad she wrote the entire bunny comic out as quickly as she did. The alternative would have been an incredibly drawn-out comic that didn't reveal the message that I disagreed with until a year or so of slow burn.
Post by: Keeper on March 24, 2021, 11:48:38 PM
I grew up Catholic, and much of my family is still Catholic, as is a close friend of mine, and I can't imagine any of them agreeing with the idea of all humans being irredeemable sinners who don't deserve mercy. Inherently flawed, yes. Original sin, yes. But it seems to me that Minna doesn't fully understand the faith herself yet, and her first interpretation of it is unfortunately one of the most harmful variations. I do worry for her mental health, as "nothing we do can make up for our inherent sinfulness" does not engender good thoughts about anyone, including oneself.
One of the things that struck me about the comic was the bit where the content warnings for the Bible are listed, including
- Harmful messages
- Causes feelings of guilt
- Sexism, racism, etc
From there they get more vague and clearly less serious, but these are all actually valid complaints one can make about the Bible. It does promote inequality between sexes. It does suggest people of certain heritages are better than others ("chosen people" themes). And there is plenty that would make one feel like a hopeless sinner with no chance of redemption ("easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle..." can you tell I went to Catholic school?).
The fact that Minna seems to be suggesting that none of these grievances are valid, and even goes so far as to mock them is what really hurts and worries me here.
Minna did say in her notes on the SSSS page that she intends to study theology more, so maybe she will learn more nuance, but knowing what I do about religious education materials for Christianity... well, there's nothing I can do about that. Good luck to her.
Post by: FreshTakoyaki on March 25, 2021, 12:18:30 AM
If she'd stayed with a critique of the social credit system in China, I might well have spent a chunk of the time I've spent posting in this thread with investigating what I could find out about that; and we might well have been having a lively discussion about it on these boards.
But framing it as 'the only possible alternative to everyone praising the Consumerist State is for everyone to praise Jesus of Nazareth instead' pretty massively diminishes the impact of anything she might have been saying about specific things going on in China.
I haven't seen many commenters from China here, but as a foreigner who speaks fluent Mandarin, lives in China, and has lived here and worked with Alibaba, I thought I'd chime in a bit.
First, definitely do look into the actual realities of the Social Credit system. The media often does a very poor job on reporting on issues here, for a variety of issues, the the Social Credit system is probably one of the mostly widely misunderstood.
Second, reading it really didn't come across as an actual critique of the system, but rather a 1984-esque exploration of how things could potentially evolve. Needless to say it's nothing like that, but who knows if the future could see expansions like that? There's lots of pilots going on in cities across China, some related to pandemic-era proliferation of health apps. Most are actually broadly supported, since they're seen to punish behaviors that are unacceptable but not illegal (blasting music in trains and subways and public stations and causing a nuisance; not illegal, but being banned from using those services for it actually makes quite a bit of sense to some people). There's also the potential abuses of the system, with politically troublesome people potentially being subject to similar restrictions; even if those systems aren't in place, it's easy to imagine a system like the one Minna created. Not remotely what's going on currently, but a fun imagining of a potential dystopia.
Side note: I'm surprised she went with Alizongle instead of Amazongle or Amababa. Ali is far less powerful than Amazon, and the Chinese government has actually made a big show of forcing them to abandon a lot of plans (see the Ant Finance IPO fiasco). That kind of commercial power would never be tolerated here; JD, Pinduoduo, and others compete against Ali, and all are subordinate to the whims of government.
Third, a lot of it really seemed more an indictment of the Twittersphere, outrage culture, and how fickle online "friends" are, and how they will abandon you for pretty much any reason. Those parts hit a lot closer to home; rather than a fantastic imagining of a possible worst-case scenario future, that is already here and a lived reality for many. The virtue signaling, in-groups, purity tests... this is not a Twitter thing, but a universal social media thing. It's kind of too bad she was so focused on the persecution complex and Christian threads, some really good critiques of that got lost along the way.
Post by: Pessi on March 25, 2021, 03:03:28 AM
From what I've read here, Christian sects is a thing in Finland, right?
Aren't there Christian sects everywhere? The bible is a really illogical and internally contradictory bunch of different books, it's very easy to create almost any kind of interpretation based on it and then start preaching it as God's Only Truth.
As far as I remember (it's been a long while since I've actually studied anything theology related) even within the Finnish Lutheran Church there are five revivalist movements - and of course their subsects - in addition to the "ordinary" Lutherans. These range from the kind that just have some of their own little things like a special songbook to the kind of hardcore versions where dancing, tv, make up, premarital sex (or even kissing before you are at least engaged), contraceptives, abortion, divorce and LGBTQ+ people are all abominations and doing or being one of these will mean you will be formally judged and ordered to repent if not outright thrown out of the whole community and even your own family. Our Lutheran church has "high ceiling and wide walls" meaning it accepts a very varied bunch of believers as long as they hold onto the same core belief: humans are sinners and can only attain salvation through God's grace.
Then there is of course a wide and varied assortment of more or less Christian denominations, sects and other groups outside the Lutheran church. "Becoming a Christian" can mean almost anything in Finland just like anywhere else in the world.
Post by: Sc0ut on March 25, 2021, 03:41:43 AM
___________
*No I am not saying brown bunnies are a real equivalent of putting human characters that are not white in her comics but like... I just couldn't help but notice this detail
Post by: Crumpite on March 25, 2021, 04:11:47 AM
And pretty funny 😄
Post by: JoB on March 25, 2021, 04:23:51 AM
The really sinister idea would be to have the World Council occasionally kill everybody in that village off, re-seeding it with a few of its inner circle (assured, truly or falsely, that they'd survive and be rewarded) to welcome the next batch of dissidents until enough of them built up to be worth also finishing off.In that case, there would be no point in having an actual village at all, just a killbox sufficiently far away that the main part of the society will never get to know about it. But having the water supply spiked with contraceptives "just to limit the resources needed to run this" would be a definite possibility. "Hey, we're still not killing anyone outright!"
I grew up Catholic [...] and I can't imagine any of them agreeing with the idea of all humans being irredeemable sinners who don't deserve mercy. Inherently flawed, yes. Original sin, yes. But it seems to me that Minna doesn't fully understand the faith herself yetThat is, of course, assuming that the faith she found agrees with that POV; Catholicism has a wee bit of history (warning, sarcasm) of other Christian streams finding it schism-worthy.
For what it's worth, two tenets that my (Catholic) religion teachers were rather adamant about are (paraphrased)
Quote
Do not ask God to fix things for you that you can at least try to fix yourself, as that is to put God to the test, and thus a sinand
Quote
Do not expect God to [generally] counteract evil that has been brought on by the actions of humans, for that would force Him to nullify the gift of free will He gave to us- and installing an Alizongle system unto a society is quite clearly something that humans do, and can quite likely prevent as well.
Spoiler: show
Minna did say in her notes on the SSSS page that she intends to study theology more, so maybe she will learn more nuance, but knowing what I do about religious education materials for Christianity... well, there's nothing I can do about that. Good luck to her.The academic interpretation of "to study" implies that the student locates relevant sources himself, at least potentially including all POV on the matter. I'm not sure that, once people are using the term as in "[Holy Scripture of your choice] studies", it still has the same connotation to them.
Side note: I'm surprised she went with Alizongle instead of Amazongle or Amababa. [...]Am I overly paranoid to assume that "Alizongle" is a conflation of Alibaba, Amazon, and Google, plus a pervasive bird avatar and "toots" to refer to Twitter, "Buuber" for Uber, etc.?
Third, a lot of it really seemed more an indictment of the Twittersphere [...]
Which would suggest that "World Council" might not be chosen at random, either ...
what struck me both about the comic and about Minna's message was how her flavour of Christianity doesn't seem to put any emphasis whatsoever on good behaviour, however they might choose to define it. In fact, for certain readings of her afterword, it seems that she/they might even see the attempt to treat people better as vain and futile "self-improvement" (which she very clearly states she looks down upon). So her faith allows her to a) not feel bad about any flaws she identifies in her, since everyone else is "sinful" anyway b) not feel the need to improve on them because the only act that really matters is accepting god's forgiveness, and she's done that alreadyIt is a train of thoughts in a number of Christian faiths that because your possibilities pale in comparison to God's, thinking that you can do something about worldly problems other than praying for God to get His hands dirty on it is overestimating your power, hence (vain) pride, hence a sin. (If not, even worse, trying to better it goes straight against God's plans, for it is written that this world will and shall perish in full accordance to His will.)
... of course, I could raise the question "what was that about 'God's gift of free will' again?" here as well ...
Post by: Wolfdogamer on March 25, 2021, 06:34:08 AM
I honestly don't know what to think of the author's note, it made me feel a bit sh*t. I currently live in a fundamentalist church (that isn't very accepting of certain things) so anything and everything Christian I tend to ignore or shy away from...It's too much bother and I would rather just not associate myself with it, it's never really helped me.
Nevertheless, I still like SSSS and will continue to read it, depending on whatever Minna does/says in the future.
Post by: fervious on March 25, 2021, 06:38:47 AM
I'm little annoyed that a cute little comic didn't really warn me before doing the spiel, but I totally get the fear of social credit systems. I've read full length online comics based off the struggles of characters within the constraints of social credit system, and it absolutely a near-if-not dystopian idea by how easily it can manipulate and abuse people. However, I read comics about this topic without the religious commentary and presentation of religious persecution.
Just remember that no matter what, that if you are a Christian and you write only about being persecuted for that, many people will not receive that well. People who are LGBT+ are going to openly have distaste for this, because of gay conversion camps who abuse people, not to mention being outcast or judged differently by many churches (and their own families/friends) because of traits they, the oppressed, cannot control. For example, often being told they must repent for being gay, when that is how they are born. Your "religious persecution" is not equivalent to those who are often disenfranchised, abused, and outcast by Christian members of society.
The Christian in this story is:
- Told they are part of a radical group and generalized as stereotype.
- Told that even mentioning they believe in Jesus is wrong and deducts points
- That writings that praise their beliefs are bad
- That putting their belief out there means they will be judged
Really, it is all to easy to flip the script. Simply flip it as follows.
The gay person ins this story is:
- Told they are part of a radical group (non-believers, anti-theist, and apostate) and generalized as a stereotype.
- Told that even mentioning that they do not believe in Jesus is wrong and deducts points
- That writings about self-acceptance and love while being gay are bad
- That writing about how they are gay is bad.
The thing here is that belief is a choice, and being gay is not. Complaining about being oppressed for your faith while there are whole-ass groups of people being abused in conversion camps is tone-deaf and thusly will open yourself up to criticism. Minna could have easily included one of the "best friends" being an genuinely-oppressed group (I was waiting for it while reading), but did not. Maybe the kid instead of hating the system could've been trans, and abused/deducted credits for that. The main character could've recognized that, found it wrong, and sympathized with the family, validated the kid and the mom by choosing what is right by her faith (accepting others), and rejecting the concept of a system that oppressed the disenfranchised entirely.
In short: this comic could've easily been spun as a cute Christian comic about recognizing a system that oppresses many, and being a good ally to those people while also finding your faiths attacked. Instead, it ignored those who are significantly more oppressed and often directly oppressed and abused by Christians. How sad and tone deaf.
Post by: pinkysaxton on March 25, 2021, 06:50:07 AM
What I'd really like to express is gratitude for the conversation itself. I could just say thanks to those who agree and validate my feelings. But even those in the minority have made remarks that spurred my own thoughts – that I then saw mirrored in others. So thank you all for the discourse. And thanks to the mods for keeping up with the comments.
My boyfriend noticed the other night that I was very down. It was partly the afterword, but it was mostly this unrecognized feeling that I had no one to talk to about it. No one would get it. I'd have to explain it all, then complain, then hope for validation from someone who wasn't there for it. That's what you've given me. I feel validated. But I also feel like I don't need some person to agree with everything I think all the time. As a community, you've given me a chance to process everything. You've echoed hopes that someone I care for hasn't changed. But you've also bluntly stated that those whispers I've been shutting out were true. That this isn't a change, at all. Not truly. And all those who disagree with me have made me think, "Am I just faking hindsight?" so that I can reexamine my views and come back with a firm, "No! I am certain."
Thank you for being what I needed, saying what I needed to hear, and having the same insights I did. I'm past denial and into, "Well, we saw this coming." And it's been a better ride for this forum. The peace is flowing in. Because even though this is just the beliefs of some author online who will never meet me, it hurt to be looked down upon and then later dismissed. It hurt to have concern met with, "I'm surprised by how little I care," and not, "Your worries are misplaced, but I know they come from a place of compassion." And that hurt is fading, now that I've had a thorough chance to work through my feelings, through the tactful and precise comments made here.
Post by: Pessi on March 25, 2021, 07:04:30 AM
I guess I'm just used to the whole, "saying/doing good things doesn't get you to God" thing from being raised my Mormons and Baptists (I know, weird combination. Trust me, the conflict between sides was SO passive aggressive). It isn't anything new from believers of God, so I've come to expect it from anyone who is Christian.
I remember being taught that Luther said how "good deeds don't make a good person, but a good person makes good deeds". This may well have been a simplified way to present this theme to kids since I couldn't find such quote with a quick Google search. However I found a few pages about what the protestant reformers actually thought about good deeds in relation to faith. They seem to have been rather unified in the opinion that doing good to your neighbor doesn't give you any advantage on the path to salvation. However if you have true faith you will want to serve God, and the only way a human being can do that is by serving their neighbor. So if you have faith in God, you will want to serve Him, and so you will naturally start doing good to other people. In Bible this is expressed by Jesus in Mathew 25 when he says "Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me".
This ties up quite nicely with what we were taught about the essence of sin on one of the pre-confirmation lessons: sin is synonymous to contravening God, and contravening God is synonymous to harming your neighbor, be in in thoughts, words or deeds.
Post by: danckert on March 25, 2021, 07:15:02 AM
I don't think I've seen anyone mention this before but I find it really funny that in the Jesus segment, every bunny is brown, except Jesus who is white... I'm afraid we might have gotten our diversity representation in the worst way possible :'D *
Oh no, you're right! lolsob
I've been thinking of the small lash-out against medicine, paraphrased: "getting something stronger from your doctor" and wether Minna was on meds (depression, social anxiety) and has stopped. But now I'm just imagining scenarios based on what I've seen before. I wish I knew what group she's found (or if she's just getting the crazy cool-aid mix on the internet).
Post by: Maple on March 25, 2021, 07:40:57 AM
In short: this comic could've easily been spun as a cute Christian comic about recognizing a system that oppresses many, and being a good ally to those people while also finding your faiths attacked. Instead, it ignored those who are significantly more oppressed and often directly oppressed and abused Christians. How sad and tone deaf.
This is a problem I have found in a lot of Christian media (and I was raised in a Catholic home until 13, and continued to be influenced by extended family until 18, so that was a LOT of time to consume Christian media). Rarely does it ever go the "These people are oppressed, we should be good Christians and help those who are oppressed" way. It almost always writes the story in such a way that it's the Christian characters who are the oppressed ones, and if they happen to help other people along the way of helping themselves then awesome, but their goal isn't to help everyone. It's to help themselves.
Lovely People isn't as bad as some other pieces I have seen (believe me when I say there is a LOT of garbage Christian media out there), but that same message still rings through it. "I didn't understand the oppression until I personally was oppressed, and then I had to do something about it." It reminds me of...I'm hesitant to say 'selfishness' here because I don't think it's done maliciously (by Minna in this comic, or by Christians in general), but that's what it really feels like to me. Selfishness. There is this sense of selfishness, this idea of "oh now that I am the oppressed one I understand, and we need to change things now", it permeates through most Christian media. It's like the only feelings that matter are Christian feelings, and anyone else who gets hurt is merely a plot device or background setting for the Christian characters' own suffering. (See: the bunny that the daughter tried to give food to, and how we never saw her again after that.)
This is part of what made me uncomfortable about the comic. That attitude- that only Christians and their suffering matters, everyone else is just background decoration to use as needed- is so, so common. Especially in America, where I'm from. And seeing it again in this comic just reminded me of all the reasons I personally became an Atheist.
Post by: Superdark33 on March 25, 2021, 07:49:57 AM
I don't think I've seen anyone mention this before but I find it really funny that in the Jesus segment, every bunny is brown, except Jesus who is white... I'm afraid we might have gotten our diversity representation in the worst way possible :'D *
___________
*No I am not saying brown bunnies are a real equivalent of putting human characters that are not white in her comics but like... I just couldn't help but notice this detail
Not only that! The blue tint and lighting on that imagine spot is a very weird choice considering the area looks like
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Mountofolivespanoramic.jpg/600px-Mountofolivespanoramic.jpg)
Jesus is not the only one who got whitewashed/northeuropewashed
Post by: Sc0ut on March 25, 2021, 08:02:01 AM
Not only that! The blue tint and lighting on that imagine spot is a very weird choice considering the area looks like
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Mountofolivespanoramic.jpg/600px-Mountofolivespanoramic.jpg)
Jesus is not the only one who got whitewashed/northeuropewashed
It feels a bit cursed to defend anything in this comic but I'm pretty sure the blue tint is because the scene is happening at night. After all, roosters sing at dawn and all.
Minna could have easily included one of the "best friends" being an genuinely-oppressed group (I was waiting for it while reading), but did not. Maybe the kid instead of hating the system could've been trans, and abused/deducted credits for that. The main character could've recognized that, found it wrong, and sympathized with the family, validated the kid and the mom by choosing what is right by her faith (accepting others), and rejecting the concept of a system that oppressed the disenfranchised entirely.
In short: this comic could've easily been spun as a cute Christian comic about recognizing a system that oppresses many, and being a good ally to those people while also finding your faiths attacked. Instead, it ignored those who are significantly more oppressed and often directly oppressed and abused Christians. How sad and tone deaf.
It's generous of you to allow the possibility that the way the story is written might be just oversight or clumsy writing. Meanwhile I'm sure Minna specifically did *not* want to include groups like the lgbtq, racialised people, or anyone who is nowadays seen as defended by "political correctness" in the persecuted group. The comic and afterword are full of little details that show what she thinks about the fact that these days one is forced to consider different perspectives than their own when speaking publicly. See for instance the content warnings on the bible - basically she condemns labeling a book that really does contain sexist messages "sexist". Anything that Alizongle does in the comic, we're meant to see as bad and to be avoided. So, it is implicitly but clearly stated that Minna does not care about inclusivity and this comic is specifically and only about the persecution of a particular hardcore brand of Christians imo. (Keep in mind that it's not even about the persecution of all Christians... on the talk show we see that Alizongle approves of Christians who accept other spiritual paths as valid too, but Minna wants you to see that as not good enough and oppressive).
Post by: thegreyarea on March 25, 2021, 08:16:10 AM
Minna did a beautiful and funny comic with a relevant social critic.
The dangers of excessive consumerism, many times involving superfluous things, the extreme overvaluation of the self, the deepening of the social divide between "VIPs" and the rest, the use of automated systems to limit free-thinking outside the "safe boundaries", turning everyone in a tool for governmental control...
All that is serious and can become worse if left untamed. So denouncing it is important.
Also, the persecution of minorities (religious, ethnic, cultural, etc...) is a sad reality. And discrimination against Christians is a reality in some places.
(One should add that this persecution isn't limited to Christians. Other faiths, cultures, sexual orientations, etc... suffer too. Basically anything that doesn't adhere or goes against the official way. And also that along History (and today) the "official" way often mixed with a particular religion, each seeking its own advantages. We know that too many times the alleged worry over people's souls and their salvation was (and is) just a cover up for acquiring power and money).
So, "Lovely People" could have been not only a beautiful work of art but also an interesting metaphor for all those important issues that should be adressed. But that last page and Minna's afterwords created a level of discomfort and noise that eclipsed everything else.
While Minna's desire to shout out to the World her newfound faith is understandable (even if a bit childish), the way she did it, using the kind of speech we immediately associate with the worst "flavours" of Christianity, isn't.
I don't think she meant to do any harm, on the contrary, she clearly sees herself as a person with many flaws (who isn't?) that found a new, comfortable place, and wants to show that path to everybody else.
I wasn't expecting that (and I believe few were). I saw the bible references and thought "ok, she's focusing this on the Bible but we could imagine here the Quran or other relevant book"... But then came that final page (if only she stopped on the penultimate one, and skipped the afterwords).
She gave no warning about it. And for many, as shown in the comments, this is as very sensitive topic. Many still feel, and are indeed, oppressed and damaged by Christians.
(not to mention a long story of abuses and terrible actions).
To make things worst came that final conspiracy theory part that obviously has no basis at all...
(As someone said "anyone that believes in conspiracy theories never acted as a project manager trying to make (just) 10 people do their part in a coordinated way while keeping silent about it").
Each alone would be very bad. Together they made the comic a mess. Gone is the opportunity to tackle those relevant issues.
final note:
I grew a Catholic, so Minna's words didn't hurt me immediately, they felt just... uncomfortable, and wrong. The Catholic faith where I grew tempered these "Old Testament" views with an emphasis on each one's ability to become a better person. The Original Sin and Hell in the scriptures were just metaphors.
I remember one priest saying "The only hell is closing yourself and living without love".
I hope Minna finds, by herself or with the help of more mature and moderate minds, a better path.
Post by: TheOneThatGotAway on March 25, 2021, 08:38:29 AM
Also, shun the non-believer! Peony was just "lying" about her beliefs, but secretly she was a "good person" all along, now that she has to run away? Shun, shun, shun the non-believer!
Post by: Maglor on March 25, 2021, 08:45:10 AM
Ok, so the comic came out allright, and then the afterword made a tonn of noise. Someone's offended, someone's not, but everyone is in it. Minna have a long career in media by now, so I think she knows how things work.
What if she made her afterword intendebly offensive (though it's still just a bit rude for me, but that's just a difference in our standards of offensiveness, I guess) to make people pay attention to her message? To make them talk about it, think about it, start a discussion?
To think about it, a lot of Romans and Pharisees probably found Jesus'es preaching offensive, but that's exactly what made him popular.
Post by: fervious on March 25, 2021, 08:47:44 AM
It's generous of you to allow the possibility that the way the story is written might be just oversight or clumsy writing. Meanwhile I'm sure Minna specifically did *not* want to include groups like the lgbtq, racialised people, or anyone who is nowadays seen as defended by "political correctness" in the persecuted group. The comic and afterword are full of little details that show what she thinks about the fact that these days one is forced to consider different perspectives than their own when speaking publicly. See for instance the content warnings on the bible - basically she condemns labeling a book that really does contain sexist messages "sexist". Anything that Alizongle does in the comic, we're meant to see as bad and to be avoided. So, it is implicitly but clearly stated that Minna does not care about inclusivity and this comic is specifically and only about the persecution of a particular hardcore brand of Christians imo.
Most Christians I've met do mean well, so I'm always willing to give more benefit of doubt. But I was raised by Christians, so obviously they cared about me and my well-being. Mostly.
Anyways, ignorance is bred from not being exposed the oppressed and their struggles. In many ways I'm still ignorant of the struggles of those with less money, of different races, cultures, and immigration status here in the United States; acknowledging that and trying to learn, sympathize, and not invalidate those groups is what doesn't make me a "bad person". It might very well be that Minna is not exposed to these elements very much in her region. I grew up in Memphis, which is a very "charged" area. By this, I mean that it isn't always about race but more about social economic class (things I was taught such as, "it's okay to be black, but we pity the poor, and you cannot act like the poor,").
This idea of current-day social economic and cultural classism be a very abstract to people from societies where wealth is distributed much more evenly. To them, the idea of class is tied to medieval books about peasants, churches, and kings. Not current-day society where-in there are people are judged for speaking inner-city style because it's "ghetto" and "makes them low class".
I hope this explains a little where I come from. I came from a white family of decent wealth; I was not allowed to have city dialect ("ghetto"), we were not friends with black families unless they acted "non-ghetto" (and praised the Lord). Speaking "proper English" was pushed, however improper English was accepted (ie, phrases like, ain't, thingmabob, etc) until it was associated with the poor. It was really enlightening to realize this about my upbringing and reject it. I get along with my peers much better.
Anyways, maybe I just have a little too much faith in the good side of people. ;)
Post by: Alkia on March 25, 2021, 08:50:42 AM
And, echoing what pinkysaxton said: this thread has been really good to read, it's lovely with what intelligence and (mostly) politeness everyone has talked about this sensitive topic and it's definitely helped me process things! Thank you!!
My thoughts are this:
Religious media makes me uncomfortable for a number of reasons: Christianity's historic justification of homophobia, transphobia, racism, xenophobia and overall hatred with religion; it’s habit of trying to convert others (even if that comes out of a genuinely well-intentioned place); merely the fact that I'm not religious; the fact that I'm bisexual and a lot of branches of Christianity see that as a sin; and more, are all factors. I'm not saying that Minna is doing any of these things, and I know a lot of Christian people who are anything but (they are some of the most loving, respectful people I know) but based on what I saw of the comic and that afterword, she does seem to have gone towards a rather toxic strain of Christianity.
I won't be following any later projects of hers, but I don't see a problem with continuing to read and buy SSSS because I trust her words that it won't be influenced too much by her new religion and I do think it's possible to enjoy exceptional art and storytelling even if I disagree with the author. I guess overall I'm not offended or annoyed at the "preachiness" of the comic and the afterword, just very surprised and kind of disappointed-- I respect her decision to use her skills to make religious art, but I feel like such a huge talent could be much better used in more original projects like ARtD and SSSS.
I totally understand those who were offended and hurt by it though, seeing how that kind of preaching was often used in abusive ways (and, as others have said, that's another thing that rubs me the wrong way; her refusal to acknowledge any valid hurt she caused, either here and now or with the Emil incident). That being said, as others have also mentioned, this has been a tough mental health year for everyone, and maybe this is just her way of dealing with it. I feel like I don't want to speculate further without knowing more of the story (what things could have happened in her life that she hasn't shared?), so in short:
though I disagree with it, I respect her choice and I really really hope she's okay. I'm also definitely going to stay around the Forum too because this Fandom has had such a good impact on my life and I've come to care about a lot of people here (and I'm also going to keep making fan art because, as I said, I believe it's possible to enjoy art even if I disagree with the author :-)).
Some other little things that I wasn't sure how to slot in:
- I agree with people who are sad/disappointed by the queerbaiting, as an Emilalli shipper myself at least fan works can be made (and hey who knows, maybe something will still happen before the end of SSSS! I doubt it but there's always hope!! Minna's dad's comment, if that really was her dad, did reassure me a little)
- The lack of a trigger warning, or any sort of note that might tell people of the very christian and sensitive nature of the afterword (though, as others have said, I don't think the comic or afterword was meant to be hurtful)
Sorry for the very long length and all the repetitions of what many previous have more eloquently said
Post by: fervious on March 25, 2021, 08:58:25 AM
"Lovely People" could have been not only a beautiful work of art but also an interesting metaphor for all those important issues that should be adressed. But that last page and Minna's afterwords created a level of discomfort and noise that eclipsed everything else.
Faith is a choice, even Christians will tell you this.
Being oppressed is not a choice for many oppressed groups and individuals; that is the problem. Minna is using a the viewpoint of someone of faith (faith is a choice). This doesn't translate over to someone with no choice (of race, LGBT+, culture, economic class, etc)
Choice is important here because choice is weaponized in dangerous, seriously damaging modern day conversion camps in different variations (ie. "being gay is a choice, you must discontinue and be forgiven"). This is even the policy of many seemingly-accepting churches (ie. many will say they accept those whom are gay, but they really want you to come to Church so they can tell you to make the "choice to not be gay").
Post by: Sc0ut on March 25, 2021, 09:38:40 AM
Anyways, ignorance is bred from not being exposed the oppressed and their struggles. In many ways I'm still ignorant of the struggles of those with less money, of different races, cultures, and immigration status here in the United States; acknowledging that and trying to learn, sympathize, and not invalidate those groups is what doesn't make me a "bad person". It might very well be that Minna is not exposed to these elements very much in her region.
Oof.. I can see you mean well but I think people cut her too much slack for not being American. Race and other minority issues exist everywhere in the world. There are plenty of different ethnicities in Finland, some of them with a long history of being there, others shorter, but they visibly exist (I've visited there and I saw). Besides, the internet is an invaluable teaching tool for all of us regardless of our upbringing, if we choose to use it. I was born in Eastern Europe and have lived here all my life; English is not my native language, and I'm not that well traveled. Still, because I spend a lot of time online and have international friends, I am informed on a variety of issues that pertain to groups that I've had little to no personal experience with, and viewpoints and cultural trends that come from outside of my country; I accept, at the very least, that I don't know everything and I'm open to being told I made a mistake or need to educate myself more (for instance I am also white and grew up with frankly very racist ideas but learned to start deconstructing them as an adult, when I was exposed to writings by people affected by racism). This is a bare minimum of decency that Minna doesn't have, as we saw in the slur incident, and it can't be blamed on her culture, since most Finns I know do not have this issue (sorry if this sounds rude to say, but well, it's true imo). Sometimes, if it walks like a bigot and it quacks like a bigot...
Post by: Yuuago on March 25, 2021, 10:15:46 AM
Anyways, ignorance is bred from not being exposed the oppressed and their struggles. In many ways I'm still ignorant of the struggles of those with less money, of different races, cultures, and immigration status here in the United States; acknowledging that and trying to learn, sympathize, and not invalidate those groups is what doesn't make me a "bad person". It might very well be that Minna is not exposed to these elements very much in her region. I grew up in Memphis, which is a very "charged" area. By this, I mean that it isn't always about race but more about social economic class (things I was taught such as, "it's okay to be black, but we pity the poor, and you cannot act like the poor,").
This idea of current-day social economic and cultural classism be a very abstract to people from societies where wealth is distributed much more evenly. To them, the idea of class is tied to medieval books about peasants, churches, and kings. Not current-day society where-in there are people are judged for speaking inner-city style because it's "ghetto" and "makes them low class".
I can tell you mean well but the things you wrote are tone deaf. Maybe I misunderstood what you meant?
Issues of race, class, wealth distribution etc look different in Finland than they do in the USA, but this doesn’t mean that these problems do not exist or that the problem of class inequality is something of the Middle Ages (?!!!)
Nor is the issue of class being linked to dialect/language unknown there either.
I assure you, Sundberg’s issues are not because she hasn’t been exposed to these problems in their international context - there are plenty in her home country.
Post by: Jerry B. on March 25, 2021, 10:39:55 AM
Seems to me a pretty straightforward criticism of the Social Credit system that is used in China and elsewhere, and that the Christians as the oppressed minority could just as well been any other group that doesn't espouse the government's desires, be they Communists, Libertarians, people of other religious faiths, etc.
Post by: Maple on March 25, 2021, 10:57:46 AM
Somehow, I get the feeling that people are reading a lot more into this story than is there.
Seems to me a pretty straightforward criticism of the Social Credit system that is used in China and elsewhere, and that the Christians as the oppressed minority could just as well been any other group that doesn't espouse the government's desires, be they Communists, Libertarians, people of other religious faiths, etc.
Her author's notes confirm that the way people are reading it is possibly true though. Just the comic on its own would be a touch tone-deaf but not really problematic. But in the context of the author's notes, it looks very much like Minna is saying "Christians are the real oppressed group" when that just isn't true in the majority of the world.
Post by: Róisín on March 25, 2021, 11:33:43 AM
James 2:14-26. ‘Faith without works is dead’.
Matthew 25: 14-30 and Luke 19:11-27: the parable of the Talents or Minæ. One of the parables of the Christ, and probably one of the origins of our modern use of the word ‘talent’ as meaning an innate gift or skill rather than as a unit of currency or measurement.
Consider these.
Post by: thegreyarea on March 25, 2021, 11:35:49 AM
Faith is a choice, even Christians will tell you this.I agree with you on the weaponization and misunderstanding of choice, and how that can be used as an oppressive tool.
But Faith, for those that truly believe in it, is not a choice, is indissociable from their identity. Countless people have been killed along History because they had the wrong Faith. Some chose to pretend embracing another faith to escape. Many chose to stand by their faith and perish.
And that's when they had the chance to choose (Jews on WW II weren't given any choice. Once identified as Jew there was no way out).
Therefore I don't see any problem in using Faith as a cause for exclusion and oppression in a story. (and political options would work the same way, they're also a choice, as practicing magic would be, etc...)
The problem is how the author does it. In this case Minna's afterwords, together with that last page, gave the story a different meaning, one of religious proselytism.
Suddenly the story was no longer about a group that faces exclusion due to their legitimate options (keeping their Faith, whatever it is) to become specifically a piece of Christian propaganda, and one written in a blunt way that represents not only the author personal options about her own life but also her worldview, even implying that we, readers, should follow that particular Faith if we want to be saved.
Minna, from what we have seen, should be smart enough to know better. People don't like to get pushed. Even if she wanted to pass that message (because she ultimately believes in it) she could have done it in a more subtle way. I can only see what she did as influenced by the enthusiasm with her new Faith, as she wrote "...there's still time to sound the message of salvation".
Please note that I'm not advocating her options. I don't like what she did, and to me it ruined what could have been a great work. I'm just trying to analyze all this with a cool head.
Her author's notes confirm that the way people are reading it is possibly true though. Just the comic on its own would be a touch tone-deaf but not really problematic. But in the context of the author's notes, it looks very much like Minna is saying "Christians are the real oppressed group" when that just isn't true in the majority of the world.I don't get that exact meaning. She pictures Christians as an oppressed group, and doesn't point others, that's true, but she doesn't claim they are "the real oppressed group". She surely knows that Christians are not oppressed in Finland. (Unless she see her particular sect as oppressed. That's a possibility...)
Post by: orangewolf on March 25, 2021, 11:40:21 AM
Her author's notes confirm that the way people are reading it is possibly true though. Just the comic on its own would be a touch tone-deaf but not really problematic. But in the context of the author's notes, it looks very much like Minna is saying "Christians are the real oppressed group" when that just isn't true in the majority of the world.
I agree, her afterword makes what she was trying to say very clear. As I said before, she could have "made up" a religion to put as a placeholder in the story to act as a metaphor for all religions. However, she decided to use the literal Bible in her fantasy world. She is saying that Christians are the real persecuted class.
Post by: Maglor on March 25, 2021, 11:43:32 AM
She is saying that Christians are the real persecuted class.
Could it be a reference to a Biblical times, where early Christians were actually persecuted?
Post by: Maple on March 25, 2021, 12:07:11 PM
Could it be a reference to a Biblical times, where early Christians were actually persecuted?
But she didn't show that. She showed a modern understanding of Christianity.
Post by: hollow on March 25, 2021, 12:27:05 PM
Like many others in this thread, I am a long time reader but new to the forum. I just finished reading this whole thread and most of what I feel has already been expressed. I feel pretty alienated by Minna's words and concerned for her mental well being. However, I really hope that her faith can sustain and comfort her in this incredibly challenging time. I'd rather she have these beliefs and a reason to live than.... well I won't say it here.
Disregarding any of the religious ideas in the comic, I was disappointed with it. I've come to expect a level of emotional depth and subtlety in Minna's storytelling. Lovely People felt like a simplistic and occasionally condescending handling of some very important issues. The bunnies behave in very simplistic, disingenuous ways, such as the teacher and her behavior towards her students. From the very first panel, with its entirely unsubtle introduction, I felt as though the comic was not as great as it could be. It almost felt like a comic for very young readers. However, the strong, punishing words of the ending do not seem suitable for young readers at all.
Minna did, however, knock it out of the park with the art. Very very well done. The art almost makes it up for me. But not enough.
Post by: tzelly on March 25, 2021, 12:48:22 PM
There is this sense of selfishness, this idea of "oh now that I am the oppressed one I understand, and we need to change things now", it permeates through most Christian media. It's like the only feelings that matter are Christian feelings, and anyone else who gets hurt is merely a plot device or background setting for the Christian characters' own suffering. (See: the bunny that the daughter tried to give food to, and how we never saw her again after that.)
This is part of what made me uncomfortable about the comic. That attitude- that only Christians and their suffering matters, everyone else is just background decoration to use as needed- is so, so common. Especially in America, where I'm from. And seeing it again in this comic just reminded me of all the reasons I personally became an Atheist.
This, I've been having that moment replay in my head over and over in my head and the moment of the teacher bunny screaming about not talking to non people after violently kicking at the beggar bunny. (dont remember any of their names and at this point dont care to) This is the moment I started hating the characters. Its that selfishness that some people are worthy of respect or basic human rights, and the "others" are un-people trash that should just starve cause they should have "known better". Cause they are not the "true believers". Made me sick and so angry.
Not to mention that heel turn right by the end with "oh no, MY baby!! :C " like its different now, now that its personal. Dude, it dont have to be personal for you to see a problem in a system, you self centered twat.
Its stuff like this and many other reasons that I turned away from my family's faith many years ago.
Post by: Maple on March 25, 2021, 12:54:17 PM
This, I've been having that moment replay in my head over and over in my head and the moment of the teacher bunny screaming about not talking to non people after violently kicking at the beggar bunny. (dont remember any of their names and at this point dont care to) This is the moment I started hating the characters. Its that selfishness that some people are worthy of respect or basic human rights, and the "others" are un-people trash that should just starve cause they should have "known better". Cause they are not the "true believers". Made me sick and so angry.
Not to mention that heel turn right by the end with "oh no, MY baby!! :C " like its different now, now that its personal. Dude, it dont have to be personal for you to see a problem in a system, you self centered twat.
Its stuff like this and many other reasons that I turned away from my family's faith many years ago.
It would have made for a more powerful storytelling moment- AND a more powerful Christian storytelling moment- if the beggar bunny had been where the teacher bunny had started to question the system. It's easy to overlook suffering you hear about but don't see on your own. But seeing a bunny unable to get food when they are not a rotten person, that would have been a more powerful world-shattering moment for teacher bunny. Maybe not enough to make her give up the system, having her daughter be the moment she gives up on the government is okay. But she could have started questioning it when she saw the beggar bunny. That is more in line with Christianity, and would have made for a stronger story.
Post by: Junkt69 on March 25, 2021, 01:24:33 PM
Post by: Tarnagh on March 25, 2021, 01:31:20 PM
You know, reading the last post, I've had an interesting idea.I considered this as well. Not just to get people talking about it but to get a good chunk of her current readership upset by it. Minna's well aware that quite a lot of her current readers are not Christians, are LGBTQ+, are members of minority populations, or in some way "othered" by the mainstream societies in which they live.
Ok, so the comic came out allright, and then the afterword made a tonn of noise. Someone's offended, someone's not, but everyone is in it. Minna have a long career in media by now, so I think she knows how things work.
What if she made her afterword intendebly offensive (though it's still just a bit rude for me, but that's just a difference in our standards of offensiveness, I guess) to make people pay attention to her message? To make them talk about it, think about it, start a discussion?
To think about it, a lot of Romans and Pharisees probably found Jesus'es preaching offensive, but that's exactly what made him popular.
Here's my cynical take on it: She expected this backlash. She wanted it. Remember, according to her own notes WE are the bad guys here. The irredeemable sinners.
In this context, it's us who represent Alizongle. If we are turning away from her, "casting her out" then she must be doing something right. She can hold this up as "proof" that The World™ rejects "The Truth" of Jesus, that she and people like her ARE being persecuted for their faith in the sense that their faith alone causes others to shun her.
This is great marketing for the new direction she's taking. There's no such thing as bad publicity, right? She is already building a new base of Jesus Minnions. We can see their comments defending her under comic 409. I'm sure they will carry her forward into her new Christian endeavors and will have no problem telling her how right she was to abandon her godless prior works and the fanbase that went with them.
But she could have started questioning it when she saw the beggar bunny. That is more in line with Christianity, and would have made for a stronger story.It's more in line with Christianity as it reads on paper, but time and again it is proven by these people that nothing is a problem no matter who is being hurt ... until it impacts them personally in some way. The beggar bunny was a stranger and she's clearly not reading enough of her Bible if she doesn't know Matthew 25:31-46 and the story of how you treat "the least of these." Maybe she felt bad enough about the beggar bunny to pray about her (off panel, of course), because that's literally the least anyone can do for anyone else and still feel smugly sure that you've done something to help them. No, it wasn't until it was her own daughter that it was a problem. Too bad Minna misses the part where the beloved church members will turn away and shun you if you can't get your problem kid back in line. Either get them in line or disown them. That's a pretty solid recurrent "Christian" theme based on my own experiences and what I've seen happen to others.
Post by: Dilandu on March 25, 2021, 01:37:47 PM
So as I've been reading through this thread I keep seeing some mention to something everyone refers to as the "Emil incident," but I have no idea what that is. Would someone be nice enough to point me in the right direction so that I can figure out what this is? I started reading this comic forever ago and once I got caught up to the most recent page (at least the most recent page at the time) I ended up forgetting about it and I'm just now coming back to reading this comic again. I started reading the bunny comic, and I'm not done yet and will reserve judgement for when I finish, but I came over here to see what everyone thought of it. Anyways, everyone's mentioning something to do with Emil and I kind of want to know what exactly happened so that I can make an informed decision. So can anybody help?
The Emil incident refer to this page, 549 of Adventure I:
(http://www.sssscomic.com/comicpages/549.jpg)
Apparently (I wasn't in SSSS community yet, so I wasn't witnesses), initially Emil used not a "kung fu", but another word, which is considered rude racial slur toward Asians. This caused major backlash. Minna (as far as I know, again) handled the situation... not well, which led for a large number of Minnions leaving the fandom.
Post by: tzelly on March 25, 2021, 01:43:39 PM
It would have made for a more powerful storytelling moment- AND a more powerful Christian storytelling moment- if the beggar bunny had been where the teacher bunny had started to question the system. It's easy to overlook suffering you hear about but don't see on your own. But seeing a bunny unable to get food when they are not a rotten person, that would have been a more powerful world-shattering moment for teacher bunny. Maybe not enough to make her give up the system, having her daughter be the moment she gives up on the government is okay. But she could have started questioning it when she saw the beggar bunny. That is more in line with Christianity, and would have made for a stronger story.
Absolutely, that would have fixed some of the problems with the story flow and make a clearer message. And also actually giving the teacher bunny some time to think about what it means to disobey. It really seems like the story was a first draft and rushed rushed rushed. As a whole it needed a few more re-writes and editing.
Maybe in addition, stretch out the Insta bunny's isolation after banning her friends, show the life getting sucked out of her. Like still reviewing products and just showing no interest on here face. Her points trickling to nothing and showing that even if you comply its going to eventually turn into a lose lose situation. Rather then exploding in rage and showing her bunny butt to the world.
And there really isnt a story for the good wife bunny that I can remember, she was mostly pointless except to show Christian oppression, oh and finding the map for the other bunnies to escape. Could literally cut her out and give that task to anyone else and the story would not have changed much.
Wow, I really dislike all these characters... not a one is likeable. except for the teacher bunny's elder daughter, she is ok..
Post by: sacredgrove on March 25, 2021, 02:01:45 PM
So, backstory, I suppose: I've been following Minna's stuff since the early chapters of A Redtail's Dream. It quickly became one of my all-time favorite comics; the art, story, and characters were phenomenal and lovable, even when they were jerks. Of course I'd follow her into SSSS, too.
I've always really enjoyed how religion/folktales/mythos/etc played a role in her work; never too imposing or in-your-face, but never looked down upon as silly nonsense. I actually loved the way Anne was handled since it was neither spoken of as some kind of "true belief" system but rather as the answer for those lost souls specifically. I feel like religion either gets depicted with a heavy hand or as the butt of a joke, so it was nice. I used to be one of Those Atheists who hated on religion as a teenager. Nowadays, I've grown into someone who can respect and enjoy the differences in beliefs, and where I can learn more I happily will!
When Minna first announced this comic, I was really excited! I loved all her previous projects, and even have a copy of A Redtail's Dream in hardcover. I figured it would be either a cutesy break from her usual more serious tones or a cutesy style for a darker story. Either way, I was following the progress with bated breath.
And then it was released.
If I'd known from the beginning what, "Lovely People," was going to be about, I wouldn't have read it. Not even out of curiosity. But there was no warning, no label about what I was about to read. She'd turned off comments so I couldn't even get a glimpse from other readers.
When I finished it, I sat there staring at the afterword for ten minutes. I have no words to describe the sheer hollowness of that moment, nor the overwhelming sense of distress that came after.
Like many others here I, too, was a victim of the Christian faith. I don't want to talk about my experience. It was bad. I doubt I'll ever be able to escape it, really, so I try with all my heart to focus on the positives in life. So hearing one of my all-time favorite creators say that...I couldn't even process it. This was her message to everyone? I thought I was reading too much into it. Surely it was me in the wrong here? But after re-reading it multiple times to glean what the "proper" meaning might've been...I came to the same conclusion.
I feel like I was spat upon.
This wasn't a small, "ugh, not this again," feeling. I've been upset for days now. I innocently walked into a comic and relived so much past trauma I swear I feel it physically. I heard the countless voices in my past screaming scripture and repentance at me. It's so deeply unsettling that in a space where I felt comfortable and accepted that I would be violated so thoroughly by radical religious doctrine. It has been beaten into me time and time again to the point where stewing too long in it wears down my mental health. Here, once again, I had to face it. With no warning.
I decided to keep trying to read SSSS despite how horrible I felt looking at it. Didn't really go well, honestly. That joy I used to feel when reading a new page isn't there anymore. I've never been on this forum before this moment but decided to click into it after noticing comments were still disabled. Hey, who knows, maybe reading another person's opinion would help me sort myself out, y'know?
Anyway: I read all seventeen pages of this thread.
It was so cathartic. At times it felt as though, despite not being part of the conversation, I was being welcomed into a comfort group. Just knowing I'm not alone in feeling this hurt has helped me so much. I don't have other people to talk to about this. There was so much to unpack all by myself that the sheer weight of it all made me double over.
From the bottom of my heart: thank you. I don't feel so alone anymore.
Post by: Maglor on March 25, 2021, 02:08:38 PM
Wow, looks like I'm not the only one to join just for the sake of commenting on this mini comic. Hello!
It seems to me that you're not. Since Minna's Christian bomb lovely people are multiplying here like bunnys...
I'm growing certain with a thought that it was made for hype. The purpose of a hype in unknown, but the outcome is obvious.
Post by: Dan_Urios on March 25, 2021, 02:32:04 PM
I read it thoroughly without missing a single word. So please let me be a little mean.
Stand Still Stay Silent is a good comic. It has pacing and it knows how to tell a story.
Lovely People is laughable. It lacks subtlety and goes as far as explicitly pointing at that "atheist" society and accusing it of doing things Christianism is very known for. It contradicts itself constantly, too.
Lovely People is a comic worth skipping, and I'm not talking about religion here. Although if we were, no piece of media should exist only sustaining itself on a single message. Lovely People is nothing without its half-assed religious messages and it has very probably made me lose faith (hah) in Minna as an author. This looks like a first-timer comic.
I needed to vent. Thank you.
Post by: JoB on March 25, 2021, 03:09:39 PM
- The lack of a trigger warning, or any sort of note that might tell people of the very christian and sensitive nature of the afterword (though, as others have said, I don't think the comic or afterword was meant to be hurtful)Something I realized just today:
There have been numerous requests by people feeling hurt by the "no faith but mine" part that Minna adds a trigger warning for that. (Which she still ignores, page 411 still announces "the mysterious bunny comic" with no more indication of Christian content than one protagonist being "a Christian homemaker".)
I don't remember seeing even one of the Christians who deplore the persecution of their faith in the comments ask for a trigger warning; after all, the comic also depicts such persecution, though not as its culmination point.
Wonder what that's trying to tell me ...
Post by: Sc0ut on March 25, 2021, 03:24:34 PM
Something I realized just today:
There have been numerous requests by people feeling hurt by the "no faith but mine" part that Minna adds a trigger warning for that. (Which she still ignores, page 411 still announces "the mysterious bunny comic" with no more indication of Christian content than one protagonist being "a Christian homemaker".)
I don't remember seeing even one of the Christians who deplore the persecution of their faith in the comments ask for a trigger warning; after all, the comic also depicts such persecution, though not as its culmination point.
Wonder what that's trying to tell me ...
I think it just shows which group has, and which group doesn't have, direct experience with being marginalised. For some their persecution is a theoretical possibility, for others a lived reality that got to traumatise them already.
Anyway: I read all seventeen pages of this thread.
It was so cathartic. At times it felt as though, despite not being part of the conversation, I was being welcomed into a comfort group. Just knowing I'm not alone in feeling this hurt has helped me so much. I don't have other people to talk to about this. There was so much to unpack all by myself that the sheer weight of it all made me double over.
From the bottom of my heart: thank you. I don't feel so alone anymore.
Hey, I'm really sorry the comic affected you so much, but I'm glad the thread helped. You are seen, and definitely not alone in how you feel.
I considered this as well. Not just to get people talking about it but to get a good chunk of her current readership upset by it. Minna's well aware that quite a lot of her current readers are not Christians, are LGBTQ+, are members of minority populations, or in some way "othered" by the mainstream societies in which they live.
Here's my cynical take on it: She expected this backlash. She wanted it. Remember, according to her own notes WE are the bad guys here. The irredeemable sinners.
In this context, it's us who represent Alizongle. If we are turning away from her, "casting her out" then she must be doing something right. She can hold this up as "proof" that The World™ rejects "The Truth" of Jesus, that she and people like her ARE being persecuted for their faith in the sense that their faith alone causes others to shun her.
This is great marketing for the new direction she's taking. There's no such thing as bad publicity, right? She is already building a new base of Jesus Minnions. We can see their comments defending her under comic 409. I'm sure they will carry her forward into her new Christian endeavors and will have no problem telling her how right she was to abandon her godless prior works and the fanbase that went with them.
Yup. I think page 409 has the most comments a SSSS page's ever had at this point (and consequently, a lot of views and possibly ad revenue). This is not even a creative way to get popularity, plenty of people put out content that toes the limit of "too offensive" and benefit from the backlash, which naturally also attracts people who fight against the backlash because "freedom of speech". I don't know if Minna banked on it being a net positive for her, or whether she figured it was worth losing a portion of her old viewers (while gaining others, maybe even a bit fewer) as long as she gets the satisfaction of flipping off at length those of us who criticised her for the slur and lack of diversity. And before anyone accuses me I'm too harsh, she literally said her heart is full of spite herself.
Anyway that's why I've stopped engaging with the conversation on disqus and I only hang out here for now.
Post by: Dilandu on March 25, 2021, 03:46:36 PM
It was so cathartic. At times it felt as though, despite not being part of the conversation, I was being welcomed into a comfort group. Just knowing I'm not alone in feeling this hurt has helped me so much. I don't have other people to talk to about this. There was so much to unpack all by myself that the sheer weight of it all made me double over.
From the bottom of my heart: thank you. I don't feel so alone anymore.
*Mental hugs from Mother Russia* You are most clearly not alone.
Post by: Tarnagh on March 25, 2021, 03:52:12 PM
Like many others here I, too, was a victim of the Christian faith. I don't want to talk about my experience. It was bad. I doubt I'll ever be able to escape it, really, so I try with all my heart to focus on the positives in life. So hearing one of my all-time favorite creators say that...I couldn't even process it. This was her message to everyone? I thought I was reading too much into it. Surely it was me in the wrong here? But after re-reading it multiple times to glean what the "proper" meaning might've been...I came to the same conclusion.I'm sorry that happened to you. It shouldn't happen to anyone. You are definitely not alone! <3
I feel like I was spat upon.
This wasn't a small, "ugh, not this again," feeling. I've been upset for days now. I innocently walked into a comic and relived so much past trauma I swear I feel it physically. I heard the countless voices in my past screaming scripture and repentance at me. It's so deeply unsettling that in a space where I felt comfortable and accepted that I would be violated so thoroughly by radical religious doctrine. It has been beaten into me time and time again to the point where stewing too long in it wears down my mental health. Here, once again, I had to face it. With no warning.
...
From the bottom of my heart: thank you. I don't feel so alone anymore.
I decided to keep trying to read SSSS despite how horrible I felt looking at it. Didn't really go well, honestly. That joy I used to feel when reading a new page isn't there anymore. I've never been on this forum before this moment but decided to click into it after noticing comments were still disabled. Hey, who knows, maybe reading another person's opinion would help me sort myself out, y'know?And thank YOU for pinpointing a feeling I've been trying to define since All This™ started! There was an unspoken trust in Minna and her work that I find I don't have any more. SSSS has become just another comic (albeit still a beautifully drawn and so far still well written comic). I follow a lot of comics. This one is the only one I have ever dropped Significant Money on just so I could have hard copies of the book versions. This is the only comic I've ever blathered on about to friends and family about how great it is and how they should read it, too.
I can't say I would invest that kind of emotional effort into promoting this comic any more, knowing what's likely to happen. I would be betraying the trust of people who respect me, if I were to shove them into a situation that would also hurt them.
I find myself still very sad about this but thank you for helping me define exactly why I'm still feeling this way. Now I can work on sorting it out properly. :)
Post by: thorny on March 25, 2021, 04:00:31 PM
In that case, there would be no point in having an actual village at all, just a killbox sufficiently far away that the main part of the society will never get to know about it.
The point would be that for some time dissidents and potential dissidents would be getting messages from their actual friends, saying 'come on in the showers are fine.' This would probably make it easier to get people into the kill box.
Could it be a reference to a Biblical times, where early Christians were actually persecuted?
In a comic depicting a society full of modern tech, where the repression works through their phones?
Faith is a choice, even Christians will tell you this.
Some of them will tell you being gay and/or trans is a choice, too. See below.
But Faith, for those that truly believe in it, is not a choice, is indissociable from their identity.
Entirely true.
But also, in the other direction (as I've said in the thread before, but it's a long thread; I'll quote a bit below): believing is also not a choice for those who don't believe. It isn't possible to just make oneself believe something that to the nonbeliever is obviously not true.
Practice is a choice, yes. The nonbeliever can show up in church and mouth the words; the believer can not show up and/or hide or not perform rituals out of fear or embarrassment or even inconvenience. But that's only a change in outward behavior, not in belief.
What I said before:
people can't just decide to believe something. I can't just decide to believe, at least without massive injury to my brain, that there are no cats that are expecting me to feed them and will be seriously upset if I don't, or that it doesn't matter how upset they are. (Fill in young children, if you've got any, instead of cats, and try it.) And I am no more capable of believing that Jesus of Nazareth was and is the one and only God of the Universe than I am of believing that Arthur of Britain is. Or that my brother-in-law is.
In this case Minna's afterwords, together with that last page, gave the story a different meaning, one of religious proselytism.
It's not just the last page and the afterword. I saw the story clearly heading in that direction when the change in version 2 of the Bible that Minna chooses to stress is the bit about Jesus being the only way to salvation.
Minna, from what we have seen, should be smart enough to know better. People don't like to get pushed.
Some humans, however, like to see other people get pushed. That afterword was clearly not intended to appeal to the portion of her audience who are being insulted and/or injured by it. It's intended to appeal to those who want those "others" to be repelled.
Whether that's a conscious decision on Minna's part, or whether it's an unconscious defensive maneuver, or whether it's been fed to her by people trying to isolate her from other opinions, I don't know.
Oof.. I can see you mean well but I think people cut her too much slack for not being American. Race and other minority issues exist everywhere in the world. There are plenty of different ethnicities in Finland, some of them with a long history of being there, others shorter, but they visibly exist (I've visited there and I saw). Besides, the internet is an invaluable teaching tool for all of us regardless of our upbringing, if we choose to use it.
Thanks for the perspective. And very good points.
Anyways, ignorance is bred from not being exposed the oppressed and their struggles.
Unfortunately, not always true. Slaveholders, for instance, must have been very much exposed to those they were oppressing and their struggles. Many of them managed nevertheless to remain ignorant of the humanity of those they were oppressing.
And in almost all cases, when women are oppressed, there are women living intimately with the oppressors.
Minna have a long career in media by now, so I think she knows how things work.
What if she made her afterword intendebly offensive (though it's still just a bit rude for me, but that's just a difference in our standards of offensiveness, I guess) to make people pay attention to her message? To make them talk about it, think about it, start a discussion?
That really doesn't work. What it's made nearly everyone do is divert from any discussion of the credit system to instead discuss the offensiveness, or claims of the lack of it.
If I'd known from the beginning what, "Lovely People," was going to be about, I wouldn't have read it. Not even out of curiosity. But there was no warning, no label about what I was about to read. She'd turned off comments so I couldn't even get a glimpse from other readers.
[ . . . ] I innocently walked into a comic and relived so much past trauma I swear I feel it physically. I heard the countless voices in my past screaming scripture and repentance at me. It's so deeply unsettling that in a space where I felt comfortable and accepted that I would be violated so thoroughly by radical religious doctrine. It has been beaten into me time and time again to the point where stewing too long in it wears down my mental health. Here, once again, I had to face it. With no warning.
And she's been told of this reaction, repeatedly, in the Discus discussion that she states she's been reading. And the comic's still being promoted on later pages, still with no warning, no label, no comments to allow other readers to post a heads-up.
Either she's lying about having read the Discus comments, or this is entirely deliberate.
sacredgrove, you are most definitely not the one who is in the wrong here. Welcome, and may this place continue to provide shelter.
Post by: Maglor on March 25, 2021, 04:11:31 PM
That really doesn't work. What it's made nearly everyone do is divert from any discussion of the credit system to instead discuss the offensiveness, or claims of the lack of it.But you're here. Discussing. Not the credit system, but cannons of this kind are never too precise. We're all here discussing what's exactly offensive about this comic, which is connected to a religion. And once are butts cease to burn, somene might even start a dicsussion about credit system.
Post by: CherryShrimp on March 25, 2021, 05:24:12 PM
There's been a lot of discussion of personal experiences, religious views, Minna's true intentions, etc. From what I've read, I think most of us would be happy and respectful that Minna had found a faith that was bringing her meaning and that she was exploring it through her writing -- except that she blindsided people with what feels like a personal attack on their beliefs. And I've re-read that bunny comic enough times to feel confident that the text provides evidence that this was meant to shock.
As someone with an MFA in Fine Art who is looking to make a career switch to the animation industry, I can tell you that blind-siding the people who have been financially supporting your career/ability to make your own art would be seen as deeply unprofessional. I've attended CTNX and LightBox for the chance to learn directly from the pros in the animation industry. And one of the first lessons from the pros is what constitutes as professional conduct -- they do not hire new recruits who cannot meet this requirement.
I hope that Minna earns a second chance after things cool down (key word earns). But I'm seeing enough people who have been deeply hurt by the handling of this incident that I wanted to let you guys know how this looks through a professional lens. This isn't an issue of freedom of expression, religion or censuring. This is a breach of professional behavior.
Post by: thorny on March 25, 2021, 05:40:45 PM
But you're here. Discussing. Not the credit system, but cannons of this kind are never too precise. We're all here discussing what's exactly offensive about this comic, which is connected to a religion. And once are butts cease to burn, somene might even start a dicsussion about credit system.
I at least am no longer interested in anything Minna has to say about a social credit system. I might be interested in what someone else has to say about it, sure; but it's clear to me that anything she has to say is going to be seen through a distorted lens, so I'm going to discount it.
ETA: even if what she was trying to do was to get people to pay attention to social credit systems, it's not true that whacking them upside the head with a board is a reasonable way to go about it. It's not only that they're far more likely to focus on the board than on whatever else you were trying to say. It's also that you've got no business whacking people with boards.
Post by: Maglor on March 25, 2021, 05:49:40 PM
Hey, I just don't like to think, that my favorite author just went coo-coo for no reason.
Post by: tzelly on March 25, 2021, 05:57:23 PM
I at least am no longer interested in anything Minna has to say about a social credit system. I might be interested in what someone else has to say about it, sure; but it's clear to me that anything she has to say is going to be seen through a distorted lens, so I'm going to discount it.
Any point she might have had is lost, with the bad writing that only got worse in the later part of the comic, makes her point completely buried under bible quotes. I didn't even know the social credit system was even a thing, and was very interested to learn more. So its a real missed/batched opportunity and her attitude of "haters gata hate" with silencing the comments on her main comic shows how little respect she has for her audience now.
Post by: Songbird on March 25, 2021, 06:01:21 PM
But I'm seeing enough people who have been deeply hurt by the handling of this incident that I wanted to let you guys know how this looks through a professional lens. This isn't an issue of freedom of expression, religion or censuring. This is a breach of professional behavior.
There are way too many things I dislike about it and this one of them. She misused our trust in her as an author here. The choice to keep the exact nature of the comic under wraps even after learning it distressed so many is a deliberate one; Misleading your audience about the themes contained in a work is a big no-no in writing as well.
Like it or not when you tell a story you're building a relationship with your audience. It doesn't need to be close, all you need is trust. That's the foundation of it, so to toss it away on purpose is... uh...
Post by: Maple on March 25, 2021, 06:52:40 PM
There are way too many things I dislike about it and this one of them. She misused our trust in her as an author here. The choice to keep the exact nature of the comic under wraps even after learning it distressed so many is a deliberate one; Misleading your audience about the themes contained in a work is a big no-no in writing as well.
Like it or not when you tell a story you're building a relationship with your audience. It doesn't need to be close, all you need is trust. That's the foundation of it, so to toss it away on purpose is... uh...
The part that's most upsetting is that Minna is likely going to take any criticism she gets as "Oh they're against Christianity, I don't have to listen to them" and ignore any honest, helpful crit she gets.
I really think the majority of people here would not be upset at the thought of a Christian bunny comic, provided that it is 1: well-written and thoughtful, like the rest of her work, and 2: clearly labeled as being a Christian bunny comic. Most of the crit she has gotten has been on one of those two points. But she seems hell bent on not admitting she made any mistakes and instead othering those who criticize her work, regardless of their intentions.
And I really think she will feel that hurt in the future, with whatever project she has next. Because like you said, she burned everyone's good faith in her, and I expect them to leave once SSSS is over (like I plan on doing, I won't be reading whatever else she makes after SSSS).
Post by: Tarnagh on March 25, 2021, 07:13:15 PM
The part that's most upsetting is that Minna is likely going to take any criticism she gets as "Oh they're against Christianity, I don't have to listen to them" and ignore any honest, helpful crit she gets.Exactly this. I've already said that this upset we're experiencing is being completely ignored by her, witnessed by her comment about how "un-hurt" SHE feels by our criticism while completely ignoring the hurt she's caused others, choosing to interpret it as "anger" rather than honestly looking at the real reasons this is legitimately hurtful to quite a few members of her audience.
I really think the majority of people here would not be upset at the thought of a Christian bunny comic, provided that it is 1: well-written and thoughtful, like the rest of her work, and 2: clearly labeled as being a Christian bunny comic. Most of the crit she has gotten has been on one of those two points. But she seems hell bent on not admitting she made any mistakes and instead othering those who criticize her work, regardless of their intentions.
And I really think she will feel that hurt in the future, with whatever project she has next. Because like you said, she burned everyone's good faith in her, and I expect them to leave once SSSS is over (like I plan on doing, I won't be reading whatever else she makes after SSSS).
I've also already noticed that there are an interesting number of new commenters on page 409 that are fully supporting the new direction of her work, and I have commented already (but I think it bears repeating) that those people are her new target audience and they'll be more than happy to reinforce her decision to leave her past, "sinful" works (and the fanbase that went with them) behind in favor of these new followers like themselves. And the irony of that will be completely lost on all of them.
Post by: pinkysaxton on March 25, 2021, 09:23:44 PM
… those people are her new target audience and they'll be more than happy to reinforce her decision to leave her past, "sinful" works (and the fanbase that went with them) behind in favor of these new followers like themselves. And the irony of that will be completely lost on all of them.
This has been alluded to before (at least as a possible, "Look at the irony of this comic I wrote!") but do those who leave the fandom and her comments section do so as the protagonists of her comic? We see the lack of critical thinking and compassion, and the black-and-white all-or-nothing cognitive distortion she's promoting. She's already flippantly told people to come to the forum (which, to be honest, is what brought me here). Are we the bunnies leaving to look for something else? Instead of leaving Society for Freedom, are we choosing to remove ourselves (either before or after SSSS completes) from an outlet of superiority and intolerance? She clearly doesn't care if we go – just as her World Council let the bunnies walk away. I don't believe that she is using some sort of experiment to promote the irony of a rushed comic. But all she's done is placed herself in the spot of World Council, then berated us for not seeing things another way. You can't set up a dichotomy like that, then badger people for being wrong. But it sounds like the idea that she might lure us with honey is against her beliefs. At that point I have to wonder, was the intention to send us away? Only those 'strong' enough to accept blunt judgement and impressionistic comments will stick around her New Comic Order in the comments.
I guess this sounds really melodramatic now, but seriously – where do we go from here?
Post by: Tarnagh on March 25, 2021, 10:09:47 PM
This has been alluded to before (at least as a possible, "Look at the irony of this comic I wrote!") but do those who leave the fandom and her comments section do so as the protagonists of her comic? We see the lack of critical thinking and compassion, and the black-and-white all-or-nothing cognitive distortion she's promoting. She's already flippantly told people to come to the forum (which, to be honest, is what brought me here). Are we the bunnies leaving to look for something else? Instead of leaving Society for Freedom, are we choosing to remove ourselves (either before or after SSSS completes) from an outlet of superiority and intolerance? She clearly doesn't care if we go – just as her World Council let the bunnies walk away. I don't believe that she is using some sort of experiment to promote the irony of a rushed comic. But all she's done is placed herself in the spot of World Council, then berated us for not seeing things another way. You can't set up a dichotomy like that, then badger people for being wrong. But it sounds like the idea that she might lure us with honey is against her beliefs. At that point I have to wonder, was the intention to send us away? Only those 'strong' enough to accept blunt judgement and impressionistic comments will stick around her New Comic Order in the comments.
I guess this sounds really melodramatic now, but seriously – where do we go from here?
Maybe I'm indulging myself in some kind of Sunk Cost Fallacy, but I will stay to see SSSS to its end. Whatever that end may be.
I will, despite everything, give her new comic a try but I go into saying that with a HUGE caveat of "I don't expect much of it, and if it's anything like the bunny comic I'm out immediately."
I've been "witnessed" to enough in my life, thanks all the same.
I think it will be VERY interesting to see how the comments section on Disqus goes once they're reopened after the chapter break. I fully expect the new Jesus Minnions to completely take over our beloved Commentariat. I doubt I'll have much to say over there once the comments are open again. I'd love to be wrong on all that, though.
In the meantime, and going forward even after SSSS ends - all the cool people are HERE. And now, so are we. :) Having just started to get settled in to this place, I hope not to have to leave any time soon.
Post by: Maple on March 25, 2021, 11:22:33 PM
I think it will be VERY interesting to see how the comments section on Disqus goes once they're reopened after the chapter break. I fully expect the new Jesus Minnions to completely take over our beloved Commentariat. I doubt I'll have much to say over there once the comments are open again. I'd love to be wrong on all that, though.
What are they even going to say though? SSSS has always been pretty secular. Surely after the drama around the bunny comic dies down the new readers won't have much of a reason to stay around? (besides if they like SSSS for what it is now, which might happen, but I have my doubts about extremely religious/fundie people enjoying SSSS.)
Post by: FreshTakoyaki on March 25, 2021, 11:25:59 PM
Am I overly paranoid to assume that "Alizongle" is a conflation of Alibaba, Amazon, and Google, plus a pervasive bird avatar and "toots" to refer to Twitter, "Buuber" for Uber, etc.?
Which would suggest that "World Council" might not be chosen at random, either ...
You are not paranoid, just more perceptive than I was. It seems absurdly obvious now that you point it out.
The commentary really was disappointing, though. Especially coming from the Jewish tradition, where questioning everything and having your own opinion is fundamental to understanding. Even my Orthodox Rabbi freely admitted that most of his congregation were atheists or agnostics, and that believing without question or believing you alone understood god's truth and the path to god was narcissistic at best; how could any one person claim to understand that, or judge others for their interpretation or rejection?
There was a story he shared about a Hasidic Rabbi: A student asked why God would create atheists, and lead people to reject him. Did God not want all people to be in awe of him?
The Rabbi responded that atheists taught us about performing moral acts without promise of reward. They act with true compassion when they help others. When an atheist does charity, visits a sick person, and so on, they aren't doing so because of God or a moral commandment. With no belief in God, all acts are based on an inner sense of morality. They do not pray for God to help others, they take the responsibility on their own shoulders.
Just a fun story, but the contrast with the idea and hubris that one person somehow has realized and understood that eternal plan of god and their way is the correct way and all the rest of humanity will burn in Hell for not following their version... I think Alizongle's the good guy in her bunny story, promoting a much healthier form of Christianity than the original misogynistic collection of bronze and iron-age mythological stories and books that the original version is. And the version promoted in the author's commentary is just downright scary. It also shows just how much of a persecution complex she has now, and attacking her or her faith would just make her retrench even further. Given how full of contradictions and logically inconsistent it is, with time and some actual study and thought, she should be in a much better place. I went to a Jesuit university (Georgetown), and as the priests there loved to say, the best way to make an atheist or agnostic out of a Christian is to force them to study the Bible and think about it.
Still, I'm glad she's still writing SSSS, and hopefully it won't be rushed or changed too much by her new perspective. Religious authors can write astoundingly good fantasy, and explore questions of faith and spirituality within them. If the bunny comic is indicative of the direction of her future direction, I'll definitely leave her to it, the fundamentalist Christian world is a large and loyal audience. Hopefully she'll eventually come to her senses, or if not, hopefully her faith will be a source of comfort and stability for her personally, and not a source of hatred and judgement for others.
Post by: Pessi on March 26, 2021, 02:32:32 AM
Oof.. I can see you mean well but I think people cut her too much slack for not being American. Race and other minority issues exist everywhere in the world. There are plenty of different ethnicities in Finland, some of them with a long history of being there, others shorter, but they visibly exist (I've visited there and I saw).
Based on actual research Finland is one of the most racist countries in the EU. We have a whole political party that seems to exist mainly to blame immigration and refugees for everything that is wrong in the society while also hankering after an imagined "good old times Finland" where everyone was white, straight and Christian and lived by very conservative ideals all through their lives - and this party has a very steady following of about 20 %. We also still haven't ratified ILO 169 which would give our Sámi minority at least basic rights as the indigenous people they are instead of having to live in constant fear for their traditional culture and livelihoods being wiped out. Our Róma minority has traditionally been shunned, and it's not going much better for those of our new minority groups that are visibly different than the old native population.
Minna, from what we have seen, should be smart enough to know better. People don't like to get pushed. Even if she wanted to pass that message (because she ultimately believes in it) she could have done it in a more subtle way. I can only see what she did as influenced by the enthusiasm with her new Faith
I've been wondering if it is all her own doing instead of influenced by her new religious group. After all some sects use "missionary work" as a way to deeper indoctrinate their own members. Especially new recruits are encouraged or even plainly ordered to do everything they can to convert all their friends and family members and everyone else they happen to meet. This is not done primarily to gain more converts since most people of course find it repulsive to be force-fed religion and refuse to even listen. This is done to give the new recruits the feeling that they are disliked, scorned, shunned and rejected for their new-found faith by almost everyone and the only people who love, understand, respect and support them are those within their own new religious circle. This is a very effective way to make people gradually cut most of their their non-religious social contacts and start living for their religious community alone.
Post by: Dilandu on March 26, 2021, 03:18:49 AM
Based on actual research Finland is one of the most racist countries in the EU. We have a whole political party that seems to exist mainly to blame immigration and refugees for everything that is wrong in the society while also hankering after an imagined "good old times Finland" where everyone was white, straight and Christian and lived by very conservative ideals all through their lives - and this party has a very steady following of about 20 %. We also still haven't ratified ILO 169 which would give our Sámi minority at least basic rights as the indigenous people they are instead of having to live in constant fear for their traditional culture and livelihoods being wiped out. Our Róma minority has traditionally been shunned, and it's not going much better for those of our new minority groups that are visibly different than the old native population.
Well, i dunno about modern Finland, but Finnish treatment of Soviet prisoners of war and civilians in continuation war was... exemplary BAD. Worse than Nazi, in many cases; much more casual sadism and brutality. And, while Germany was de-nazified after war , as well as many of its European allies (Romania, Hungary, ect.), Finland was not.
Of course, main reason was, that Finland managed to get out of the war rather lightly. Finland weren't occuped; its government and military weren't dismantled. While Stalin usually wasn't the men who let those who wronged him get away lightly, Finland managed to suggest something he could not refuse: to get rid of German troops in Finland themselves. Stalin, the greatest pragmatic, recognized the advantages of being able to immediately shift hundreds of thousands Soviet soldiers from Finnish to German front, and agreed to let Finland to be as it was (and not to press much about war crimes)
So Finland was not subjected to the same ideological cleansing after war as other Axis nations. The unpleasant pages of history were just ignored, pretended not to exist. Which probably contributed at least a bit to the situation you described.
Post by: Sc0ut on March 26, 2021, 03:30:48 AM
Based on actual research Finland is one of the most racist countries in the EU. We have a whole political party that seems to exist mainly to blame immigration and refugees for everything that is wrong in the society while also hankering after an imagined "good old times Finland" where everyone was white, straight and Christian and lived by very conservative ideals all through their lives - and this party has a very steady following of about 20 %. We also still haven't ratified ILO 169 which would give our Sámi minority at least basic rights as the indigenous people they are instead of having to live in constant fear for their traditional culture and livelihoods being wiped out. Our Róma minority has traditionally been shunned, and it's not going much better for those of our new minority groups that are visibly different than the old native population.
This is very similar to what is happening in my part of Eastern Europe actually (and all over Europe there's been a resurgence of far right groups that scapegoat minorities and foreigners for everything and peddle the same myth of the "golden age" when all people who lived there were uniform and everything was fine). My point isn't that everyone in Finland is not racist, but that if you open your eyes to the reality around you and choose to educate yourself, it is possible, despite counter ideas floating around in the culture. If it was possible for other Finns of ages similar to Minna's (and not to mention for Eastern Europeans like me whose formal education in this respect is frankly worse) it's possible for her as well.
And, while Germany was de-nazified after war , as well as many of its European allies (Romania, Hungary, ect.), Finland was not.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by de-nazified but I assure you that people who still push for similar ideas and policies definitely still exist in this part of Europe and have some of the population's support, unfortunately. But we're getting a little off topic and I personally would rather not extra emotionally hurtful content in a thread that hopefully provides people with a bit of relief.
Post by: Pessi on March 26, 2021, 04:39:48 AM
Well, i dunno about modern Finland, but Finnish treatment of Soviet prisoners of war and civilians in continuation war was... exemplary BAD.
Well, Finnish prisoners taken by the Soviets were not much better off, and Soviet partisan troops alone made 45 separate attacks into Finnish civilian settlements ravishing and murdering everyone they could get their hands on. War tends to bring out the ugliest sides of human nature.
Quote
And, while Germany was de-nazified after war , as well as many of its European allies (Romania, Hungary, ect.), Finland was not.
Though in reality allied with Nazi germany, Finland declared before the war, during it and after it that we had our own separate war with the Soviet Union and didn't have anything to do with the ambitious invasion plans of Germany. The "getting rid of Nazis" was not a piece of cake either: it boiled down into the War of Lappland in which the retreating German troops burned everything in their wake. The whole town of Rovaniemi for example was burned to the ground.
Quote
The unpleasant pages of history were just ignored, pretended not to exist.
For a long time, yes, partly because good relations with the Soviet Union were essential for Finland. Nowadays more and more actual research is being done and truths found out from behind the official legend of "a small but brave and purehearted nation fighting against an unholy, gigantic oppressor to save it's sacred independence" - which isn't totally false either though gravely exaggerated.
Sorry for the offtopic content, just felt I needed to clarify some things. I won't say anything else about Finnish warhistory or politics in this topic after this.
Post by: Dilandu on March 26, 2021, 04:50:41 AM
Sorry for the offtopic content, just felt I needed to clarify some things. I won't say anything else about Finnish warhistory or politics in this topic after this.
Agreed, lets stop the off-topic. Sorry for raising it at all; as amateur military historian I sometimes tend to drift here.
Post by: thegreyarea on March 26, 2021, 06:26:57 AM
...Just wanted to say that I liked your comment very much, and also the story, that I also heard from a catholic priest once.
The commentary really was disappointing, though. Especially coming from the Jewish tradition, where questioning everything and having your own opinion is fundamental to understanding. Even my Orthodox Rabbi freely admitted that most of his congregation were atheists or agnostics, and that believing without question or believing you alone understood god's truth and the path to god was narcissistic at best; how could any one person claim to understand that, or judge others for their interpretation or rejection?
There was a story he shared about a Hasidic Rabbi: A student asked why God would create atheists, and lead people to reject him. Did God not want all people to be in awe of him?
The Rabbi responded that atheists taught us about performing moral acts without promise of reward. They act with true compassion when they help others. When an atheist does charity, visits a sick person, and so on, they aren't doing so because of God or a moral commandment. With no belief in God, all acts are based on an inner sense of morality. They do not pray for God to help others, they take the responsibility on their own shoulders.
...
Based on actual research Finland is one of the most racist countries in the EU. We have a whole political party that seems to exist mainly to blame immigration and refugees for everything that is wrong in the society while also hankering after an imagined "good old times Finland" where everyone was white, straight and Christian and lived by very conservative ideals all through their lives - and this party has a very steady following of about 20 %. We also still haven't ratified ILO 169 which would give our Sámi minority at least basic rights as the indigenous people they are instead of having to live in constant fear for their traditional culture and livelihoods being wiped out. Our Róma minority has traditionally been shunned, and it's not going much better for those of our new minority groups that are visibly different than the old native population.Actually I had no idea about that. We on the southern side of Europe tend to imagine Finland as an almost perfectly balanced society where the main problem is the lack of sunlight... So thanks for the info. I have to study that more in the future.
I've been wondering if it is all her own doing instead of influenced by her new religious group. After all some sects use "missionary work" as a way to deeper indoctrinate their own members. Especially new recruits are encouraged or even plainly ordered to do everything they can to convert all their friends and family members and everyone else they happen to meet. This is not done primarily to gain more converts since most people of course find it repulsive to be force-fed religion and refuse to even listen. This is done to give the new recruits the feeling that they are disliked, scorned, shunned and rejected for their new-found faith by almost everyone and the only people who love, understand, respect and support them are those within their own new religious circle. This is a very effective way to make people gradually cut most of their their non-religious social contacts and start living for their religious community alone.This is an unpleasant possibility that sadly may very well be the truth in her case, while I hope not.
Post by: Mirasol on March 26, 2021, 12:44:34 PM
Something I realized just today:
There have been numerous requests by people feeling hurt by the "no faith but mine" part that Minna adds a trigger warning for that. (Which she still ignores, page 411 still announces "the mysterious bunny comic" with no more indication of Christian content than one protagonist being "a Christian homemaker".)
I don't remember seeing even one of the Christians who deplore the persecution of their faith in the comments ask for a trigger warning; after all, the comic also depicts such persecution, though not as its culmination point.
Wonder what that's trying to tell me ...
On the topic of trigger-warnings. I do think that one would be very appropriate for this story, reading here how many people were hurt by its message and/or facing things that caused them trauma with no warning. I hope Minna adds one eventually, though I kinda doubt it...
But I would suggest implementing a warning on the first post in this thread too, in case someone stumbles across the bunny-comic on the forum first before the SSSS-website. Then at least we could avoid such situations coming from here.
Post by: Jitter on March 26, 2021, 02:31:11 PM
Post by: Engelszorn on March 26, 2021, 04:24:21 PM
I see the Bunny comic perhaps as a critique of people who dismiss believers. I think she was certain that a lot of fans would be drop her once she made her conversion known and the exact extent of her belief and this could very well be why she thinks christians are oppressed. I know that certain groups of christianity truly believe they are oppressed, but it was a thought that crossed my mind and I just had to add it here. I mean, I can pretend and acknowledge that I'm responsible for my feelings and I can't put the blame on Minna - trying to act like her epilogue did not have an affect on me just isn't happening. I also would want her to acknowldge that this isn't just a comic about some random characters but that it does comes with some harsh words concerning religion as well.
My impression of the comic is: great art - I really wish she would put as much effort into SSSS (again?), great characters and great paneling, but it falls short on almost every other aspect, including the religious message. The bunnies not helping suffering bunnies was what got me the most. I grew up in a rather religious region in germany and while neither my family nor myself are religiously inclined, the christian message was drilled into us from a very early age, help the poor and the suffering. It was just so central to the belief that I can't think of a good or even acceptable reason why Minna's bunnies acted the way she made them.
In my long years online as an artist or simple spectator this will be something I'll not forget, that's for sure and I've been privy to some strange shenanigans! Will I read Minna's new work if it's based around her interpretation of christianity - no. I was planning to put SSSS on hold, simply because there are a few issues with adventure 2 that I didn't like, now that she has announced a chapter break she beat me to it. Currently I am not really looking forward to the new chapter, so I'll pick it up at a later date.
Post by: Gwenno on March 26, 2021, 04:50:52 PM
On the topic of trigger-warnings. I do think that one would be very appropriate for this story, reading here how many people were hurt by its message and/or facing things that caused them trauma with no warning. I hope Minna adds one eventually, though I kinda doubt it...
But I would suggest implementing a warning on the first post in this thread too, in case someone stumbles across the bunny-comic on the forum first before the SSSS-website. Then at least we could avoid such situations coming from here.
I strongly agree with Mirasol! @wavewright62 if you please could add it a warning or content description!
That's a very good point, thank you for pointing it out. I've added a quick warning at the start of the thread for now but might make it more comprehensive later on.
Post by: wavewright62 on March 26, 2021, 05:02:44 PM
I strongly agree with Mirasol! @wavewright62 if you please could add it a warning or content description!
Whoops, looks like Gwenno beat me to it.
I admit that when I came in here a week ago (only a week, really??) I was a stunned mullet. I'd managed to find the comic after querying one of my mutuals who was live-blogging ectstatically about it all morning on tumblr (I guess the GOD IS GOOOODDDD!!!!! tags shoulda been a tip-off). I hadn't received a Hummingfluff email, there was no indication otherwise. And then I read it, and my reaction was a *ahem* lot less ecstatic.
I felt I had to post the link for the benefit of everybody who'd been hanging on tenterhooks waiting for it, but couldn't find anything else to say, so I created the thread and went to go have my own crisis. I admit it didn't occur to me to post a trigger warning. My apologies.
I'm glad this thread has served as a lightning rod for folks wanting to express their feelings about the comic, and gosh, I'm heartened by the response. Not so much that people are leaving the fandom (because I won't lie, I mourn each and every one), but because so many of you have used this opportunity to sort out and express vital emotions in engaging ways.
Me, I'm just about ready to start making jokes again. I'm one of those for whom snark is my coping strategy.
(https://imgur.com/JC3rvSU.png)
Post by: thorny on March 26, 2021, 05:07:25 PM
That's a very good point, thank you for pointing it out. I've added a quick warning at the start of the thread for now but might make it more comprehensive later on.
I think the warning is a good idea; but I'd recommend rephrasing it, for two reasons:
one, the problem isn't just that it's Christian. I don't think anybody's upset simply because Minna's declared herself a Christian (and, Engelszorn, I don't think you meant this but I also don't think anybody's said they would leave the comic solely for that reason.) The problem is what kind of Christian, and that she's saying everyone else must become Christian also. Maybe something like 'contains very strong Christian proselytizing elements'?
and two: people have posted in this thread -- and they were very much right to do so -- descriptions of their own negative experiences and damage done to them by this sort of Christianity. I repeat: I think and feel that they were very much right to do so. However, some others who have also had such experiences might be upset by coming across these descriptions if not warned. I'm not sure how to word this; maybe someone who has had to deal with this personally could make a suggestion?
wavewright62, re the joke: I laughed!
Post by: Tarnagh on March 26, 2021, 05:38:18 PM
I think the warning is a good idea; but I'd recommend rephrasing it, for two reasons:For my part, I can say it isn't even what kind of Christian she's chosen to be. I could deal with that as long as she was capable of leaving it out of her current work with SSSS - as unlikely as that might be. It's the absolute, unapologetic disregard for how she's genuinely hurt people while simultaneously making it all about herself:
one, the problem isn't just that it's Christian. I don't think anybody's upset simply because Minna's declared herself a Christian (and, Engelszorn, I don't think you meant this but I also don't think anybody's said they would leave the comic solely for that reason.) The problem is what kind of Christian, and that she's saying everyone else must become Christian also. Maybe something like 'contains very strong Christian proselytizing elements'?
and two: people have posted in this thread -- and they were very much right to do so -- descriptions of their own negative experiences and damage done to them by this sort of Christianity. I repeat: I think and feel that they were very much right to do so. However, some others who have also had such experiences might be upset by coming across these descriptions if not warned. I'm not sure how to word this; maybe someone who has had to deal with this personally could make a suggestion?
wavewright62, re the joke: I laughed!
Quote from: Minna, in comments on comic 410
So don't worry. I'm even surprised how non-hurt I feel, ...
As one of the people who has dealt with this, I'm trying to think myself of how that warning could be worded. Perhaps something like "Content warning for those who have been hurt by toxic Christianity?" While also letting them know that this thread is a safe place for them to try and sort out their own feelings on the matter, if they choose to read it.
And I laughed as well, wavewright62. :)
Post by: Gwenno on March 26, 2021, 05:50:47 PM
Quote
Lovely People contains very strong Christian proselytizing elements while the thread contains personal experiences with toxic Christianity which may be distressing to some.
My own experiences with both keeping a Christian faith, and encountering toxic Christianity, are much milder than many noted within this thread, so if there is anything missing, or anything that could be phrased better there's no problem adapting it until it's fit for purpose :)
Post by: Tarnagh on March 26, 2021, 05:56:48 PM
Quote
Lovely People contains very strong Christian proselytizing elements while the thread contains personal experiences with toxic Christianity which may be distressing to some.
Sums it up nicely, Gwenno! Thank you! <3
Post by: Miragia on March 26, 2021, 10:30:09 PM
Matthew 5:11-12
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven.
I will not pray for you unless you ask me to. Instead I will pray for everyone who has insulted you, persecuted you, and falsely said all kinds of evil things against you because of my Lord Jesus Christ, because they need it (and hopefully don't have any complaints about being prayed for).
Before I finished reading this thread I was about to write much longer, but I realize there is too much I don't know. I enjoyed Lovely People, in particular the part about Peter and forgiveness, because I have been there myself once. I was focused on that part, and even if the afterword may have been a bit harsh, it did not resonate with me as having any ill intent. But maybe I also need to take a good look at myself. It's not like my God needs me to defend him, anyway. Especially not against wounded people crying out in pain. Thank you, everyone sharing your experiences, for helping me see a little clearer.
Post by: PyroDesu on March 26, 2021, 10:52:08 PM
But maybe I also need to take a good look at myself. It's not like my God needs me to defend him, anyway. Especially not against wounded people crying out in pain. Thank you, everyone sharing your experiences, for helping me see a little clearer.
A very, very hard one.
Because you just repeated one of Minna's major errors.
Matthew 5:11-12 is not "don't worry about My people persecuting you, I still love you."
The ninth beatitude is addressed to the disciples. Not non-believers. It's almost certainly based on Isaiah 51:7, "Listen to me, you who know righteousness, you people who have my teaching in your hearts; do not fear the reproach of others, and do not be dismayed when they revile you."
Both are statements essentially saying, "you're going to be persecuted for believing in Me. Even by some who claim to speak in My name. But you know My truth and I love you more than them".
I get you almost certainly mean well, but quoting the bible, especially passages that are in context, defensive of the faithful, at people who have been harmed by this is so incredibly insensitive.
Post by: Kevin_Redcrow on March 26, 2021, 11:08:45 PM
All I can do now is share my personal sadness and disillusion.
I did not see this coming.
I had made assumptions about Ms. Sundeberg based at the content of RTD and SSSS. I did not look at her social media, other than a couple of youtube videos.
The imagination, skillful story telling, humor, character portrayal, and delightful artwork blew me away.
Above all, I loved the pan-spirituality in the story, a possibility which resonates with me. I enjoyed how the main characters expressed different aspects of spiritual belief in real-life kind of ways:
• Lalli stubbornly performs rites when he sees fit; such as the prayer for moonlight in the train station and the vigil for Tuuri as she passed into the Afterlife
• Reynir’s bashful prayer for guidance to find his path and talents
• Sigrun’s half-serious declaration that she does not deserve Valhalla because of her imagined failure as a leader
• Emil’s dawning realization that there might be more to life than seeking luxury
• Pastor Anne who is kindly and non-judgmental with the two Heathen boys who’ve blundered into her domain, and stays behind in this world to help those who need it
This just does not seem to be the product of a mind which would embrace a rigid fundamentalist view where there is no room for questioning or speculation.
Someone said here that the effect of this affair turned SSSS from something very special to ‘just another webcomic’. That’s what it feels like to me right now.
In the end, it is what it is. If Minna finds peace and happiness embracing this world-view, I can accept that. Somehow she’ll have to live with the contradictions and horrifying implications of that dogma.
I couldn’t.
Post by: Maple on March 26, 2021, 11:38:49 PM
Hello. I'm another one who never commented before, even if I sometimes read a few comments on the comic. This time, I came here to read them because I want to understand. Maybe I never will, since I have never had to live in fear. I hope that I can be forgiven for that. Still, I am sorry for all the pain and suffering that has been inflicted in the name of my faith. I have one thing to share with all of you who have been hurt:
Matthew 5:11-12
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven.
I will not pray for you unless you ask me to. Instead I will pray for everyone who has insulted you, persecuted you, and falsely said all kinds of evil things against you because of my Lord Jesus Christ, because they need it (and hopefully don't have any complaints about being prayed for).
Before I finished reading this thread I was about to write much longer, but I realize there is too much I don't know. I enjoyed Lovely People, in particular the part about Peter and forgiveness, because I have been there myself once. I was focused on that part, and even if the afterword may have been a bit harsh, it did not resonate with me as having any ill intent. But maybe I also need to take a good look at myself. It's not like my God needs me to defend him, anyway. Especially not against wounded people crying out in pain. Thank you, everyone sharing your experiences, for helping me see a little clearer.
I know you mean well, I can see it in your words. You wouldn't have typed what you typed if you didn't mean well.
But what you said here is exactly the kind of behavior that everyone is saying isn't helpful. The inability to see the world outside of their own personal experiences is a chronic problem in Christianity, and it's why I agree that you need to take a good look at yourself and what you say to others.
Bible quotes and parables are not comforting to people who do not believe in religion. They are not comforting to people who have been hurt by other bible quotes and parables. They are not comforting to people who follow entirely different religious texts. And when someone says a bible quote to a person who belongs to one of these groups, they're being short-sighted and not actually helpful.
For a comparison: one common way to deal with a breakup is for a close friend to bring over ice cream so that the two friends can feast on comfort food while the dumped person cries it out and the friend goes "there there, it's okay." But what if your friend is lactose intolerant? What if your friend is diabetic? What if your friend just plain doesn't like ice cream and prefers salty foods?
What you're doing here is the equivalent of bringing your diabetic friend a half-gallon of chocolate ice cream and saying "Go to town! This is what cheers me up." You have good intentions, but the circumstances of the situation make your helpful offer into something not helpful at all.
(And once again, this isn't a slight against you or your religion. I can tell you're trying to help. But I just thought a gentle explanation of why what you had to say isn't really that helpful at all may assist you in understanding the situation a bit better.)
Post by: Miragia on March 27, 2021, 02:22:50 AM
A very, very hard one.
Because you just repeated one of Minna's major errors.
Matthew 5:11-12 is not "don't worry about My people persecuting you, I still love you."
The ninth beatitude is addressed to the disciples. Not non-believers. It's almost certainly based on Isaiah 51:7, "Listen to me, you who know righteousness, you people who have my teaching in your hearts; do not fear the reproach of others, and do not be dismayed when they revile you."
Both are statements essentially saying, "you're going to be persecuted for believing in Me. Even by some who claim to speak in My name. But you know My truth and I love you more than them".
I get you almost certainly mean well, but quoting the bible, especially passages that are in context, defensive of the faithful, at people who have been harmed by this is so incredibly insensitive.
PyroDesu, you are right, it is addressed to the disciples. But does that necessarily mean it applies only to them? They were the ones who were there to listen, but persecuting non-believers in the name of Christ is just as wrong as persecuting believers in his name. Simple as that. I can only speak from my own faith, and I do believe that God loves non-believers too. If he did not, how could Christianity even exist as more than the tiny Jewish sect it started out as? I won't ask you or anyone to agree with me; I am well aware that I am a bit of an extremist when it comes to forgiveness. I'll go so far as to say that I believe that God loves even serpents and fallen angels. I'm not under any delusion that I'm better than a serpent myself, so why should I think that God loves non-believers less than me? Sorry for being insensitive, nonetheless. I certainly did not mean to be, but I am still inexperienced in these matters. So again, I'm sorry.
...Curious that I somehow got you to preach how I should interpret the Bible, though. I get that you feel insulted, but assuming that I don't know my own faith is a little rude, too. Not hard to forgive, but just saying. I don't agree with your interpretation, and you don't have to agree with mine, but Christian or non-believer, life becomes easier for everyone if you don't assume the worst of others. But you were trying, too, so thank you.
I know you mean well, I can see it in your words. You wouldn't have typed what you typed if you didn't mean well.
But what you said here is exactly the kind of behavior that everyone is saying isn't helpful. The inability to see the world outside of their own personal experiences is a chronic problem in Christianity, and it's why I agree that you need to take a good look at yourself and what you say to others.
Bible quotes and parables are not comforting to people who do not believe in religion. They are not comforting to people who have been hurt by other bible quotes and parables. They are not comforting to people who follow entirely different religious texts. And when someone says a bible quote to a person who belongs to one of these groups, they're being short-sighted and not actually helpful.
For a comparison: one common way to deal with a breakup is for a close friend to bring over ice cream so that the two friends can feast on comfort food while the dumped person cries it out and the friend goes "there there, it's okay." But what if your friend is lactose intolerant? What if your friend is diabetic? What if your friend just plain doesn't like ice cream and prefers salty foods?
What you're doing here is the equivalent of bringing your diabetic friend a half-gallon of chocolate ice cream and saying "Go to town! This is what cheers me up." You have good intentions, but the circumstances of the situation make your helpful offer into something not helpful at all.
(And once again, this isn't a slight against you or your religion. I can tell you're trying to help. But I just thought a gentle explanation of why what you had to say isn't really that helpful at all may assist you in understanding the situation a bit better.)
And to Maple, thank you. That is a helpful way to explain it, and now I have learned that there are those who are insulted even by Bible quotes intended to help. However, let me also inform you that I do have a friend who had very bad experiences with Christianity and left it because of that, but still enjoys reading the Bible with me. Usually she's even the one asking me to read it with her, although she remains a non-believer. That is the personal experience I based what I said on. Still, I am sorry that I wasn't helpful this time.
Post by: pinkysaxton on March 27, 2021, 03:05:54 AM
For example, I've never taken offense at the black-and-white, "This is THE WAY. You'll burn in a fiery lake if you disagree." Maybe it's the normalization from my Methodist/Lutheran upbringing, but that sort of dichotomy of religion still makes sense to me. That being said, it definitely didn't surprise me that others were very upset by it. I didn't have that reaction myself, but can see how it's justified. Even if they didn't grow up with that trauma, it's a normal response. It's not that I'm so super smart and enlightened and can see past the nasty feelings. It's merely that words affect people in different ways. Many of those ways are correct, even as they're opposites.
And I think what's been said is that comfort is the same way. Even if you didn't anticipate the negative response to a comfort you chose, an empathetic response is not one that sounds defensive, or an apology that sounds hollow (again – whether you meant it to be so or not), or an explanation that someone else finds it comforting. I think the ice cream analogy explained that well. You don't tell your friend, "Well my other friend likes ice cream when she gets dumped." You show compassion, because the assumption is that's where you were coming from in the first place. You asked for understanding, then attempted to correct those who offered it to you. If those comments weren't right, then what's there to even understand? It sounds as if you wanted a new perspective, but didn't like it when it came along. What perspective would you be comfortable accepting with grace?
And really what we expect from Minna – from artists in general, given their line of work – is a healthy dose of empathy. This isn't the first time she's approached an offended audience with a closed heart and mind. And while she's promised not to change SSSS, we've seen that the quality already has. And that, based on her past remarks, maybe it should. Because, "The wrong people are complaining about what I did" isn't something we want to hear again. But she's made it clear this will be her habit.
Post by: tzelly on March 27, 2021, 05:00:07 AM
And to Maple, thank you. That is a helpful way to explain it, and now I have learned that there are those who are insulted even by Bible quotes intended to help. However, let me also inform you that I do have a friend who had very bad experiences with Christianity and left it because of that, but still enjoys reading the Bible with me. Usually she's even the one asking me to read it with her, although she remains a non-believer. That is the personal experience I based what I said on. Still, I am sorry that I wasn't helpful this time.
Your own personal experience, or that of a friend of yours, dont mean anything to the experience of others. Just because she is ok with bible quotes or stories, dosnt mean others would be ok with it. Part of the issue, for me at least, is the lack of consent. When I read that comic, I didnt consent to religious idealism. If I wanted to read something like that, I would look for it on my own. I didnt need it to pop up unexpected when my defense was down. Not from an artist and author that is known to cover pagan mythology and stories. Your friend has asked you to read and talk about the bible. We did not.
Post by: Sc0ut on March 27, 2021, 06:26:57 AM
Matthew 5:11-12
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven.
First of all, I want to thank you for being open to hearing people with different opinions and life experiences, that's such an important and kind thing. I hope you also don't let the criticism of the method you chose to show your compassion discourage you. To me, it sounds like you're pretty young and not used to interacting with a lot of people outside your faith (sorry if I'm wrong in these assumptions). For someone who only ever sees the bible discussed as a text of wisdom and comfort in their daily life, it can be a sharp adjustment to understand that others have very different reactions to it, and I'm not surprised that your first reaction is defensive. I do appreciate your good intentions.
I do however want to get you to look at the specific quote you chose and see how it's probably one of the worst possible choices, even if no bible quote is great in this situation. When I became an atheist, for me this was one of the most painful quotes to hear, because it turns me, a non-believer who has objected to parts of the Christian faith, into an instrument by which Christians can know they're on the right path: "oh, I'm being insulted because of God! That means I'm doing it right, it's right there in the bible!" It's incredibly dehumanizing. My voice doesn't matter, my arguments are not to be addressed, they are only the "insults" that show Christians they're doing it right. (This is, by the way, a problem that applies to Minna's approach as well.)
You say that your interpretation is that it's just as bad to persecute non-believers for their lack of faith. However, if you look at the quote again, Christians are comforted with the promise of heaven. But most of us non-Christians don't believe in heaven, many of us believe there is nothing after death. The present life is all we have, so when *we* are are put down for what we believe, or don't believe, or who we are, we don't have any happier afterlife to look forward to. You can't overlook that when quoting this kind of thing. So maybe, if you really want to still quote the bible at non-believers in other situations, make an effort to see how the quote sounds from the perspective of someone who doesn't believe in life after death or in a force that rights all wrongs before you do. It could spare you a lot of awkwardness.
Anyway, I really hope you're not discouraged from continuing to engage with the conversation and from trying to better understand non Christian points of view. After all, all of us live in this wide world and we're better of when we learn to coexist.
Post by: Sherval on March 27, 2021, 07:06:39 AM
Hello! I’m yet another first-time visitor on these boards. I’ve seldomly commented on the comic itself, usually cracking a random joke about something. Since Minna insists keeping the disqus comments closed for now, I decided to post here instead of adding yet another comment to the bloated page 409 section.
I’ve been following Minna’s work for a very long time now. Way longer than the majority of her current fanbase, since most folks discovered her either through Redtail’s dream or SSSS. But before those, in the early 2000s, Minna used to have another art site called “Umbren metsä” (literally “Umbre’s forest”) named thus after Umbreon, which was her favourite Pokemon at the time. Some of you might remember that her Deviantart nick also used to be “shadowumbre” before she changed it.
Over at Umbren metsä, she would post both comic pages and fantasy art, usually depicting either anthro or dragony creatures. Some of her earliest works over at Deviantart were also posted in Umbren metsä… but it looks like she’s now purged quite a few them from DA (including one dragon picture, that she drew solely with her non-dominant hand AND had received a daily deviation award). The artist comments and the comic were written in Finnish. IIRC, only some of them had English translations available. I do remember tho, that when she tried to reboot her ongoing anthro comic at the time, she included the option to read it in English… but eventually, she dropped that comic too. Both of those comics – the original and its reboot- featured anthropomorphic, bunny-like characters with long ears and long tails. They went searching for some random McGuffin and one of the main cast members was called Penta. IIRC, she was the straight (wo)man in a group of comical idiots, the voice of reason.
That’s about all I can remember from those days. Chances are, Minna might’ve mentioned these things in her art streams etc. (which I’ve visited only once). Anyhow, I was very disappointed when she left even the second comic unfinished and, even worse, purged Umbren metsä from the face of the internet! So when she announced that she’d be making a new long webcomic, Redtail’s dream, I was quite skeptical that she’d be determined enough to finish it either. Thankfully, she was, and she’s been finishing her comic projects properly ever since.
I read Redtail in its entirety. I skipped the long prologue of SSSS, because I found it too slow paced, but I’ve read everything afterwards. I saw the infamous Emil’s Asian slur-scene in its original form before Minna edited it. My first reaction to it was “Wait, that’s an actual slur? Not something Minna just came up on her own?” Indeed, seeing the comment section and paying a quick visit to Wikipedia, I quickly found out WHY people were so hurt by it.
Did Minna deserve actual death threats over an offensive slur? Absolutely not! But I could sympathize with those who explained how and why that term hurt them. Especially if they did so calmly and rationally (instead of foaming at the mouth and spitting vitriol like some did). And there were so many reasonable comments like that!
But instead of properly apologizing, Minna just huffed and announced that she wouldn’t make such cultural references outside of Nordic countries anymore. That reaction left somewhat bitter taste in my mouth. I’m a native Finn myself, so I wasn’t personally offended by that slur… but seeing an artist I’d admired for so long (and who I knew to be a few years older than myself) act so petty, heck, downright childish, was quite disappointing. Some folks have theorized Minna’s reaction was partially caused by those toxic, outright violent verbal threats she received. That she was so distressed by them and in return, refused to apologize to anyone. To “cave in” to their demands.
And while that may have played a part in it, what I saw was a grown adult incapable of understanding that she’d done something bad. Or alternatively; being incapable of admitting it publicly, eating the humble pie instead of stubbornly clinging to their pride. She could’ve just apologized, all the while pointing out that she did so because of the calm, rational comments explaining what she’d done wrong, not the ones that verbally abused her in return. That way she could’ve apologized, but also defended herself, reminding people that proper (n)etiquette goes both ways.
Part 1/2
Post by: Sherval on March 27, 2021, 07:09:17 AM
So yeah, back then I foresaw that should Minna say something insensitive again, chances were her reaction to the scorn she’d cause would be just as unapologetic as before. And unfortunately, I was right. Never would’ve expected it to be about religion though, due to her previous, longstanding atheist views. Or rather, starting to preach about Christianity, of all things, rather than dissing religions as an atheist.
Disqus user Tapir (http://disq.us/p/2fvbnc3 (http://disq.us/p/2fvbnc3)) made a good post about how most Lutheran Christians usually are in Finland. I’m definitely one of those “Christian through culture only” folks. Nowadays, I identify myself as agnostic, choosing to focus on the world as my senses perceive it, instead of arguing over deities or their prophets. Overall, my family was never very religious and the Lutheran customs I went through, both in private life and in school, never caused me any damage… unless you count getting bored out of my skull during church visits every December and May, before getting to enjoy my school vacation.
So again, even though I wasn’t personally offended by the comic (eyerolling as it was on the whole), I can definitely see WHY it insults people, even triggers harmful memories for some. I outright laughed at the last page and especially the afterword for how preachy, contemptuous, and smug it was. Certainly not the reaction Minna was aiming for, I’d wager.
…Scratch that, there was one thing that DID offend me; the part about “vanity” of pursuing self-improvement, mentioned in the afterword. Because self-improvement is exactly what I’m currently trying to accomplish, as my loneliness and constantly eroding self-worth push me towards a high-functioning depression everyday (if I’m not already there as I type this). Of course, whether Minna meant “vain” as in merely “futile” or outright “arrogant” makes a difference. In case of former, it paints her as quite the defeatist, in addition with those self-deprecating comments she said about herself. In case of latter, it makes her, ironically, very arrogant indeed, as well as a hypocrite, because she clearly wishes to be “better” now through her own faith. I suspect that in this case, she meant BOTH interpretations of that word.
A part of me almost wants to pity her; it’s clear that she’s had her own self-doubts for a very long time now. I’ve wondered, for years really, whether or not she has any social connections outside of her family and her online fanbase anymore? And if not, whether she even wants any? She works so hard, creates such detailed, full coloured pages and uploads 4 times a week, whereas other professional web comic artists usually squeeze in just 1, maybe 2 at best. That kind of dedication doesn’t seem to leave much room for socializing… I wonder, does she ever feel lonely? Has her way of life cut her off completely from IRL friendships? Because one can absolutely feel lonely without friends, even if they regularly spend time with their family and/or partner.
2020 was a tough year for everyone. I for one learned that just about all my IRL “friendships” are 100% one-sided, always based solely on my initiation. My messages, phone calls and invitations to go somewhere (had suspected it for a few years already, but that year cemented the fact). Quite the heartbreaking revelation, especially at a time when everything shuts down and you can’t go anywhere to distract yourself from your loneliness… So I can’t help but wonder, did Minna have a similar epiphany about the state of her friendships during that year? In addition to those things she mentioned in the afterword, I mean? Because 2020 was a very crappy year to acknowledge that either A) you don’t have any friends or B) the bonds you have with them are all one-sided. I might be entirely wrong to even suggest this… but regardless, she still picked Christianity to fill whatever void there’s been growing inside of her.
Minna becoming a born-again Christian isn’t the problem. It’s the way she goes about it. Once again, just because something isn’t or hasn’t been offensive to her (i.e. Christianity), she doesn’t care how preaching about it could offend anyone else. If she wants to roll in her own pity and self-hatred (all the while glamorizing it in the light of her newfound faith), that’s her choice. But to tell everyone that their “problem” is their lack of faith in what SHE believes, now that, is just BS. And that’s why, I can’t really bring myself to pity her self-esteem issues, despite having a boatload of them myself.
Hopefully, she can eventually find balance between her faith and those issues, all the while learning to be more considerate towards others who don’t share her faith. But based on her past actions, I highly doubt it’s gonna happen, at least anytime soon. It’s Minnaway or the highway. The least she could’ve done, as many have already pointed out, was to PROPERLY mention the Christian theme in the comic’s synopsis before posting any links to it. Merely stating that one of the main characters is “a Christian homemaker” is still very vague. Had she included a proper description AND left out that condescending afterword, the bunny droppings wouldn’t have hit the fan like this.
Despite following her work on regular basis for years now, I am by no means the most dedicated fan of Minna’s. I think I once paid the total of 1 $ for a set of wallpapers and that’s it. I’ve never made any fanart or followed her art streams properly either (sans that one time). Even so, I do think it’s a shame, the way she boasts her new faith and what it’ll do to her comics from now on. Suffice to say, I will probably jump the ship after SSSS is finished. Because I’ve no intention of seeing more preachy, downright insulting Christian propaganda anymore.
I may have gotten off easy, being only a “casual” fan. But I can only imagine how bad this is for those who were, understandably, insulted or even triggered by the (not so) Lovely people. Who have closely followed Minna’s work and loved it much more dearly than I ever did, funded kickstarters, bought her merch, made fan content etc. To think that even now, she can’t bring herself to CARE why a great portion of her fanbase is in such an uproar, is pretty depressing. Depressing, but also unsurprising.
Post by: Miragia on March 27, 2021, 08:39:07 AM
I think a lot of what the complaints against Minna's response to our response boils down to an empathy gap. You shouldn't have to go through an experience (or have a friend respond in the exact same way) to be able to anticipate that something said may not go over well.
For example, I've never taken offense at the black-and-white, "This is THE WAY. You'll burn in a fiery lake if you disagree." Maybe it's the normalization from my Methodist/Lutheran upbringing, but that sort of dichotomy of religion still makes sense to me. That being said, it definitely didn't surprise me that others were very upset by it. I didn't have that reaction myself, but can see how it's justified. Even if they didn't grow up with that trauma, it's a normal response. It's not that I'm so super smart and enlightened and can see past the nasty feelings. It's merely that words affect people in different ways. Many of those ways are correct, even as they're opposites.
And I think what's been said is that comfort is the same way. Even if you didn't anticipate the negative response to a comfort you chose, an empathetic response is not one that sounds defensive, or an apology that sounds hollow (again – whether you meant it to be so or not), or an explanation that someone else finds it comforting. I think the ice cream analogy explained that well. You don't tell your friend, "Well my other friend likes ice cream when she gets dumped." You show compassion, because the assumption is that's where you were coming from in the first place. You asked for understanding, then attempted to correct those who offered it to you. If those comments weren't right, then what's there to even understand? It sounds as if you wanted a new perspective, but didn't like it when it came along. What perspective would you be comfortable accepting with grace?
And really what we expect from Minna – from artists in general, given their line of work – is a healthy dose of empathy. This isn't the first time she's approached an offended audience with a closed heart and mind. And while she's promised not to change SSSS, we've seen that the quality already has. And that, based on her past remarks, maybe it should. Because, "The wrong people are complaining about what I did" isn't something we want to hear again. But she's made it clear this will be her habit.
Your own personal experience, or that of a friend of yours, dont mean anything to the experience of others. Just because she is ok with bible quotes or stories, dosnt mean others would be ok with it. Part of the issue, for me at least, is the lack of consent. When I read that comic, I didnt consent to religious idealism. If I wanted to read something like that, I would look for it on my own. I didnt need it to pop up unexpected when my defense was down. Not from an artist and author that is known to cover pagan mythology and stories. Your friend has asked you to read and talk about the bible. We did not.
To pinkysaxton and tzelly: Okay, I can accept that perspective. I kind of already did, but I guess I tried too hard to explain myself. I pointed out what I saw as misunderstandings, but please don't think that I disliked the perspectives offered. Or yours, even if I'm kind of repeating my mistake here. It is true that I lack empathy. I'm working on it, but it never came natural to me (not kidding that I am no better than a serpent at this). I was trying to say that I didn't have the ability to anticipate that sort of thing, not that others should have to like Bible quotes just because my friend does. tzelly is right too, I really should know better than to preach without being asked to, and I am a bit disappointed in myself for that. I tried to help in the way I knew, failed spectacularly, and I'm sorry. I really didn't want to hurt anyone, and I won't be throwing any more Bible quotes in here. I'm afraid that's the best I can do before asking: what kind of apology would be comforting to you?
First of all, I want to thank you for being open to hearing people with different opinions and life experiences, that's such an important and kind thing. I hope you also don't let the criticism of the method you chose to show your compassion discourage you. To me, it sounds like you're pretty young and not used to interacting with a lot of people outside your faith (sorry if I'm wrong in these assumptions). For someone who only ever sees the bible discussed as a text of wisdom and comfort in their daily life, it can be a sharp adjustment to understand that others have very different reactions to it, and I'm not surprised that your first reaction is defensive. I do appreciate your good intentions.
I do however want to get you to look at the specific quote you chose and see how it's probably one of the worst possible choices, even if no bible quote is great in this situation. When I became an atheist, for me this was one of the most painful quotes to hear, because it turns me, a non-believer who has objected to parts of the Christian faith, into an instrument by which Christians can know they're on the right path: "oh, I'm being insulted because of God! That means I'm doing it right, it's right there in the bible!" It's incredibly dehumanizing. My voice doesn't matter, my arguments are not to be addressed, they are only the "insults" that show Christians they're doing it right. (This is, by the way, a problem that applies to Minna's approach as well.)
You say that your interpretation is that it's just as bad to persecute non-believers for their lack of faith. However, if you look at the quote again, Christians are comforted with the promise of heaven. But most of us non-Christians don't believe in heaven, many of us believe there is nothing after death. The present life is all we have, so when *we* are are put down for what we believe, or don't believe, or who we are, we don't have any happier afterlife to look forward to. You can't overlook that when quoting this kind of thing. So maybe, if you really want to still quote the bible at non-believers in other situations, make an effort to see how the quote sounds from the perspective of someone who doesn't believe in life after death or in a force that rights all wrongs before you do. It could spare you a lot of awkwardness.
Anyway, I really hope you're not discouraged from continuing to engage with the conversation and from trying to better understand non Christian points of view. After all, all of us live in this wide world and we're better of when we learn to coexist.
To Sc0ut: Thank you for your kind words. You're allowed to think that I'm young if you want to~ I kind of live under a rock, and I'm not used to interacting with people in general, so you're not too far off. I don't attend church though, and I kind of lack even other Christians to discuss the Bible with. I've had my dose of people saying that I'm not Christian enough and trying to convert me, but after six years they ran out of sermons and gave up (The serpent in me is still laughing about that, I'm sorry, I just can't help myself). Although I am fortunate enough to also have other Christians around me who don't demand as much patience, I can't really talk with them either since my views tend to overwhelm them. But even if I don't talk a lot with other Christians about faith, you are correct that I do see the the Bible as a text of wisdom and comfort in my daily life. I also see it as a dangerous book that is best read together with God (again, I'm disappointed in myself for not knowing better in this setting), and I won't claim to have decoded it all.
I was nearly about to say earlier that it may even be worse when non-believers are persecuted, for the reason you explained much better than I would have, but I was a little worried that it would be rude of me to make assumptions about other people's non-beliefs. So I do understand what you are saying, though I failed to make the connection in my initial post. I don't tend to see criticism as a sign that I'm doing something right (that's just weird), or that quote as an excuse to dismiss anyone's opinions, so the thought just didn't strike me that it would be viewed that way. Sorry, and thank you for explaining so well why it didn't sit right with you.
Post by: Hedge on March 27, 2021, 11:07:37 AM
I'm genuinely concerned about her mental state because this sounds like someone at a low point who's been recruited by a Christian fundamentalist cult.
The final passage is very much the school of "wow lol my self esteem is low because I'm actually the worst and I should give up all to the wonder and glory of God" which, look I'm not Christian nor have I ever been, I'm only marginally culturally Christian really, but this type of theology always rubs me the wrong way. The teaching that you are fundamentally terrible is bad and I've a visceral reaction to the scraping, servile attitude some forms of Christianity profess/demand where you're meant to be unendingly, sycophantically grateful for a "gift" you never asked for which incurred a debt you can never repay.
And then, though it got progressively more and more unhinged as it went on, right into American Fundie Persecution Fantasy town, the End Thoughts go straight off the deep end with a running jump. Like I don't even know where to start with explaining that a top down point system of Virtue as defined by an entity detached from the people, where your access to human rights is dependent on adherence to company lines that sees defectors dragged off to reeducation camps for not paying appropriate lip service to the ruling elite is not even vaguely the same as a system saying you have to be vaccinated against a deadly pandemic disease to travel so as not to spread the deadly pandemic disease more. The right wing talking points ("Oh but what if the government decided to take your universal basic income away?" that's not how universal basic income works, it's universal), the weird "not like other girls" feel to a bunch of it, like she and her co-religionist are the only one insightful and special enough to be disillusioned with Capitalism...the irony of railing against the idea of some external system of moral points while also talking about how you must perform the correct rites to be free of sin.
The whole thing feels like she was one or two bad youtube suggestions away from having this end with the bunnies going off to rescue the mole children from the adrenochrome mines and walking to freedom having decided to accept the negative point score from continuing to read Q-drops.
Post by: thorny on March 27, 2021, 11:11:12 AM
maybe I also need to take a good look at myself. It's not like my God needs me to defend him, anyway. Especially not against wounded people crying out in pain. Thank you, everyone sharing your experiences, for helping me see a little clearer.
Let me say, first of all, that if we'd heard this from Minna I think a lot of us would be feeling a lot better about this mess. Or at least a lot better about Minna.
let me also inform you that I do have a friend who had very bad experiences with Christianity and left it because of that, but still enjoys reading the Bible with me. Usually she's even the one asking me to read it with her, although she remains a non-believer. That is the personal experience I based what I said on. Still, I am sorry that I wasn't helpful this time.
But let me then say: your friend, like you, apparently grew up with Christianity, and retains at least some of what I'd call the back-of-the-head assumptions of Christianity: among them that the Bible, and the Christian testaments in particular, are a source of, as you say [in a later post], wisdom and comfort.
But to a lot of other people -- it's just another book. (As far as the Christian testaments are concerned, this includes Jews; even devout Jews.)
And to yet other people, that Bible is a cudgel they've been repeatedly hit over the head with. And to make it worse, the people who were doing the cudgelling may well have defended themselves against criticism of the damage they were doing by citing the very verse that you seemed to think would comfort those who were beaten with it.
Does that help to see the problem?
Please do keep trying.
Post by: Haiz on March 27, 2021, 11:26:24 AM
i fell in love with ssss as a comic early 2015, and engaged with the community An Normal Amount (i'm still #4 on the top posters board i see), and took my distance for many of the same reasons as others did (discomfort with the Incident, burnt out from putting so many of my eggs in this basket, a need to flourish elsewhere). i think i've grown & changed as a person and artist since then, and my relationship with ssss has fluctuated a lot - i can never seem to just put it down. last year, seeing how norway and the other nordic countries handled the pandemic gave me a hunger to revisit the comic for some comforting familiarity, like yes, i am aware of its flaws and i am aware of my discomfort with many of the elements, but i am reminded of what i loved about it, too. it's the joy of seeing a sprawling story represent my culture (albeit limited in many ways), the characters and their relationships with one another, the language barriers, their relationships with religion. i don't think i've ever read it so much for the Story and whatever Points it's tried to make, as much for the exploration of the world and how it's inspired me.
now then.
when i decided to reread the comic in 2020, i decided it was for me, on my terms. i was going to have to trust my critical reading skills and my ability to enjoy whatever this comic gave me the first time i read it five years before regardless of my issues and my history with the community. and like, it worked. i fell a little bit in love again, even if apprehensively so. i even got inspired to draw some art again, and this time i did it because i wanted to, not because i felt obliged to, or wanted to please someone else. i could have been happy in that space of carving out my own terms. but the world keeps turning and i don't live in a vacuum and neither does anyone else. i was lucky that i got some heads-up about some Odd Vibes when minna announced her minicomic and the way she announced it, and even more warnings about what the comic was about when it was unleashed upon the world. i was not completely blindsided, but... how do you say it? i had no expectations and i was still let down.
as a dystopia story, it reads as a very shallow one. it BARELY scratches the surface of what an "everyone sit down and play nice" social media corporate dystopia can be. none of this commentary is new or groundbreaking in any way - brave new world was published 90 years ago, was it not? yes, yes, it makes 'Some Good Points', i'm on twitter too, i'm familiar with how the deeply cynical ways social media platforms operate. i'm also familiar with how pretty much every person on twitter critiques social media, influencer/celebrity culture, capitalism, and corporations. i've seen 15 year olds write indepth critique of the current capitalist hellscape. i'm also currently seeing a lot of artists and musicians i respected sell their souls to dabble in cryptocurrency because hey burning down the planet is fine as long as you get paid enough, so yes, i AM aware of where this timeline is going. so are a lot of people! maybe it's just the sphere i am in, but the dystopia presented in the comic doesn't make me say "hmmm really makes you think" but rather "way ahead of you".
it's like... trying to make a very political comic but removing any trace of politics. trying to make a story about oppression without wanting to understand the dynamics behind an oppressive society. the Dystopian Society tells you to not question it, don't think about the people it's hurting, and the conclusion of the story is to... escape it the moment you are inconvenienced, no questions asked? sure. WHY NOT. SATISFYING CONCLUSION ACHIEVED???? i can only agree with everyone else who talked about how the story could've been improved by making the bunnies start to question their society a bit more, give them some more time to dig a little bit deeper. question authority, think critically. but it does not feel like that's the story that minna wanted to tell, to be honest. it seems more like the story here "society bad because it makes you forego the bible, the ONLY thing that matters in your life. we have all strayed from the Tru Path". whoof.
like... it's not that i absolutely cannot imagine a society where christians are persecuted? my mother grew up in soviet czechoslovakia, which WAS a totalitarian regime that DID censor certain media. if i remember correctly, she told me my grandparents got married in a church - for political reasons, as an act of protest. doing things like this could cause 'nudges' such as demotion at work, or no longer being able to attend a certain university. this is just my memory of things i was told when i asked my mom about attending a revolution, so i apologize if i am mixing up facts and hearsay. but it's deeply tonedeaf to go "imagine a world that's gone so awry that people are punished for their FAITH!" as if it's not a reality for many, many religious people already, especially muslims and jewish people... again, i might be wrong here, but it seems to me that these persecutions are rooted in many lines and intersections of oppression and history, not just "grrr they believe in god and that's stupid". there's a machinery of politics driving these engines. it does not exist in a vacuum, and lovely people does not even dip its toe into that pool. there's this disconnect between an absolutely made-up world where everyone is a cute bunny living separate from our messy human world, and the religion VERY EXPLICITLY being christianity. CAN you put christianity in such a vacuum?
i'm an agnostic raised by atheists, and my relationship to christianity and other religions is mostly academic. i haven't had many experiences with it, neither good nor bad, and i sincerely enjoy media that explores these topics. i mean, my favourite band is the oh hellos, who have recently released a series of EPs that are explicitly exploring their relationship to their faith and growing up in the american south. a lot of it flies over my head due to my religious iliteracy, but my point is that if the bunny comic had like, actually explored what that christian faith means in a consumerist world, what real kindness looks like in a world of shallow niceties, that could've made for a more interesting story - but i'm starting to think it's very generous of me to assume minna wanted to tell a solid dystopia story with themes that work and not just.. promote an agenda.
so uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh that afterword, huh. it was really alarming to read, as someone whose personal experiences with organized religion has been very mild and chill. the only time someone has told me, an openly trans and queer person, i'm going to hell was some guy who didn't like that i was wearing a hoodie on norway's constitution day. i can't say i care for it.
gods know i've spent way too much time of my life thinking about what minna's intentions and experiences might or might not be beyond what she's written, so i'm not going to do that, especially when many others have gone into it much better than i could have. i DO respect her decisions to end the comic whenever she wants to end it (it's probably a mercy at this point), not wanting to work on certain projects anymore, and locking a comment section when she needs to. everyone has a right to decide what to put their energy and time towards. (i also DO find it funny how she's locked down her comment sections after releasing a comic about a social media dystopia that's so sinister for restricting speech... imagine being moderated...)
but here's what i returned to the forum to say. here are some things i personally deeply believe in:
being a human person is a difficult and messy thing to be. we are always learning, growing, and changing. we cannot know what we don't know, we can always make an effort to learn. punishing yourself for not growing fast enough is never going to enhance that growth. sending yourself into a spiral of guilt and self-loathing serves nobody (except maybe whoever is trying to take advantage of you), and especially not yourself. by failing you learn to fail better next time. and there should be a next time! i believe in forgiveness and i believe in keeping your boundaries. being kind and understanding of yourself makes it easier to be kinder and more understanding towards others. i believe in allowing yourself to feel anger, as well every other 'bad' emotion, to follow the threads and see where they go. i believe every single person is worthy of human rights and dignity and respect, no matter how much i might despise someone - and sometimes that respect means to draw a boundary or cut ties with them, because i'm worthy of it too. i believe in asking and listening and expanding your understanding of the vast human experience. i believe in thinking critically and questioning institutions and traditions and trends around us. i believe in acting with compassion beyond just saying words about it. i believe in creating solid communities. i believe in embracing the flawed and brittle existence i have in this life on this earth, and acknowledge that i am part of world that is happening as i speak.
that's all i think :V
Post by: thorny on March 27, 2021, 12:12:56 PM
-- okay, you don't know me, by the time I started posting on these boards you were already gone, or about to be gone. But I'd been lurking for a while, and I went back and read old posts on some subjects. And I thought you were a great poster, and wished I hadn't missed you.
And you have just made another great post. Thanks.
[slinks away blushing without asking for an autograph . . . ]
Post by: Hedge on March 27, 2021, 12:56:18 PM
as a dystopia story, it reads as a very shallow one. it BARELY scratches the surface of what an "everyone sit down and play nice" social media corporate dystopia can be. none of this commentary is new or groundbreaking in any way - brave new world was published 90 years ago, was it not? yes, yes, it makes 'Some Good Points', i'm on twitter too, i'm familiar with how the deeply cynical ways social media platforms operate. i'm also familiar with how pretty much every person on twitter critiques social media, influencer/celebrity culture, capitalism, and corporations. i've seen 15 year olds write indepth critique of the current capitalist hellscape. i'm also currently seeing a lot of artists and musicians i respected sell their souls to dabble in cryptocurrency because hey burning down the planet is fine as long as you get paid enough, so yes, i AM aware of where this timeline is going. so are a lot of people! maybe it's just the sphere i am in, but the dystopia presented in the comic doesn't make me say "hmmm really makes you think" but rather "way ahead of you".
100%. "Mass consumerism is bad" is not some astounding and bold new take, almost this exact story has been done before by Black Mirror (and also to a lesser extent by every hacky technophobe cartoonist who thinks mobile phones are evil).
Quote
it's like... trying to make a very political comic but removing any trace of politics. trying to make a story about oppression without wanting to understand the dynamics behind an oppressive society. the Dystopian Society tells you to not question it, don't think about the people it's hurting, and the conclusion of the story is to... escape it the moment you are inconvenienced, no questions asked? sure. WHY NOT. SATISFYING CONCLUSION ACHIEVED???? i can only agree with everyone else who talked about how the story could've been improved by making the bunnies start to question their society a bit more, give them some more time to dig a little bit deeper. question authority, think critically. but it does not feel like that's the story that minna wanted to tell, to be honest. it seems more like the story here "society bad because it makes you forego the bible, the ONLY thing that matters in your life. we have all strayed from the Tru Path". whoof.
Again, this. It sets itself up like it's going to be about the horrors and evil of a totalitarian institution dictating who is and isn't a moral person that all must submit to totally, and then skids sideways into "the moral of the story is that it was the wrong 'totalitarian institution dictating who is and isn't a moral person that all must submit to totally' in charge". An absolutely wild take.
I think we're meant to side with the main characters but honestly they come across terribly. I can understand the whole thing of being ignorant in a system while it's not negatively affecting you but like, they learnt absolutely nothing it seems, they seemed to show not one single second of introspection about the rest of the system apart from how it affected them personally on that one particular point. They seem to implicitly agree that everyone else who got low scores probably still deserved it or something...
Quote
christian persecution stuff
There are places where Christians are persecuted now, the Soviet Union took a firmly anti-religion stance and harshly suppressed religions including Christianity but like, this doesn't read like that this reads like American Protestant religions persecution fantasies from people who think there's a war on Christmas.
Quote
so uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh that afterword, huh. it was really alarming to read, as someone whose personal experiences with organized religion has been very mild and chill. the only time someone has told me, an openly trans and queer person, i'm going to hell was some guy who didn't like that i was wearing a hoodie on norway's constitution day. i can't say i care for it.
gods know i've spent way too much time of my life thinking about what minna's intentions and experiences might or might not be beyond what she's written, so i'm not going to do that, especially when many others have gone into it much better than i could have. i DO respect her decisions to end the comic whenever she wants to end it (it's probably a mercy at this point), not wanting to work on certain projects anymore, and locking a comment section when she needs to. everyone has a right to decide what to put their energy and time towards. (i also DO find it funny how she's locked down her comment sections after releasing a comic about a social media dystopia that's so sinister for restricting speech... imagine being moderated...)
The afterword was where it went from hacky to actually concerning and conspiracy-theory-ish. But you're right there's a certain amusing irony to turning off
Quote
but here's what i returned to the forum to say. here are some things i personally deeply believe in:
being a human person is a difficult and messy thing to be. we are always learning, growing, and changing. we cannot know what we don't know, we can always make an effort to learn. punishing yourself for not growing fast enough is never going to enhance that growth. sending yourself into a spiral of guilt and self-loathing serves nobody (except maybe whoever is trying to take advantage of you), and especially not yourself. by failing you learn to fail better next time. and there should be a next time! i believe in forgiveness and i believe in keeping your boundaries. being kind and understanding of yourself makes it easier to be kinder and more understanding towards others. i believe in allowing yourself to feel anger, as well every other 'bad' emotion, to follow the threads and see where they go. i believe every single person is worthy of human rights and dignity and respect, no matter how much i might despise someone - and sometimes that respect means to draw a boundary or cut ties with them, because i'm worthy of it too. i believe in asking and listening and expanding your understanding of the vast human experience. i believe in thinking critically and questioning institutions and traditions and trends around us. i believe in acting with compassion beyond just saying words about it. i believe in creating solid communities. i believe in embracing the flawed and brittle existence i have in this life on this earth, and acknowledge that i am part of world that is happening as i speak.
that's all i think :V
some good thoughts, take +23 points.
Post by: Vulpes on March 27, 2021, 01:03:32 PM
HAIZ!!
-- okay, you don't know me, by the time I started posting on these boards you were already gone, or about to be gone. But I'd been lurking for a while, and I went back and read old posts on some subjects. And I thought you were a great poster, and wished I hadn't missed you.
And you have just made another great post. Thanks.
[slinks away blushing without asking for an autograph . . . ]
What thorny said! :))
Post by: nance on March 27, 2021, 01:35:48 PM
Heyo peeps and squeaks of this forum
I’ve never been part of the community here besides a few glances at some pages (ngl it's kinda confusing for me to navigate) but I’ve come here searching for other opinions on the Lovely People. I’ve seen a lot of opinion and good discussion on this, from both Christians and former Christians alike, which is why I feel educated enough to give my 2 cents.
First of all, I’m writing about this from the perspective of a first-generation Chinese immigrant living in Australia. I moved here at the age of 9 and am now 19 so my view doesn’t accurately show the belief of what someone who lived their entire life in china is, or even someone who moved in their adulthood (i consider my beliefs a bit more Australian/western than Chinese at this point).
Secondly, I’m an agonist with a mixture of Buddhist and Chinese traditional religion (eg Taoism) beliefs (i believe the existence of gods and higher power to be unknowable, they might exist, they might not, science neither proves nor disproves but I still believe in Buddhist doctrines if not for the message they hold then the spirituality of it). I was raised in my early childhood by my hardcore Buddhist grandma who took me to temples so much that those trips weighed in my mind the same as my art, piano, ballet and calligraphy lessons (not all at once, I started calligraphy after dropping ballet). Literally, last time I went back a few years ago my grandma took me on a 7-day prayer marathon in the dead of winter at a temple after hiring about 10 monks to our house a few nights prior for a ceremony to appease our ancestors, it’s a bit extra. So I’m not speaking from the perspective of an atheist but I’m not Christian either.
Third of all, I’m queer, I’m a pan-romantic ace who has recently gone on a trip of gender searching. I luckily grew up in an environment where I was never exposed to LGBTQ+ content until my teenagehood where I was then able to form my own opinions without bias. Though through some prodding of my family, found out half my family is hugely homophobic and the other half being ‘i don’t despise it but it's weird don’t you think?’ This is why I don’t plan to come out to them until I find someone or I move out because I am ready to cut ties (I’m studying an art major in an Asian family, I’ve already done some shit that they disagree with).
Now that I’ve made myself clear where my angles from, I’m going to start with the whole Christian thing. I think it's quite wonderful that Minna found faith in something after troubling times, faith and religion of any form can be a most important crux to those going through turmoil, an anchor during a storm, a method to help alleviate stress and increase confidence. But the way she has gone to show her new beliefs is not good. I wasn’t personally hurt by the comic, in fact, I was quite enjoying it (good art and fun characters) until of course the Christian part where I started to feel a bit uncomfortable. I’ve seen Christianity as a big and prominent part of many tv shows, books, movies and media as a whole, it wasn’t anything new and didn’t have anything to do with me so I just swallowed and moved on. Then I reached the afterword, where I proceeded to become even more unsettled and uncomfortable.
The afterword felt direct, alienating and ‘my way or go to hell’. I won’t touch on the more Christian side as that has already been heavily touched but I’ll give my view as a marginalized individual, it made me feel incredibly overlooked and personally attacked (fancy that, feel like opposites). The only people I currently know that are Buddhist are my family, no one else, there are 10 temples in my city nicknamed the city of churches (one across my primary school, one further up the road, my gym was literally in a former church). I’m not even a hardcore Buddhist, I’m not vegetarian for one and don’t recite scriptures daily but I felt alienated. Minna made it feel like the only faith that exists, not even viable to not be sinful in her eyes or anything is Christianity.
It was like she didn’t acknowledge the existence of any other religion than Christianity, a religion that 33% of the world practices. Excluding basically the other 67% as either non-existent or sinners. And to further that, push her religion, her beliefs onto (unsuspecting) others in such a ham-fisted manner. You can share your religion, your experiences with your religion, even suggest your religion as a possible solution to others. That’s all fine, but to so forcefully shove it down other’s throat shows little to no regard for other’s beliefs and feelings, it felt very tone-deaf.
You don’t know what I need, you don’t know what I practise, you don’t know my history nor my present. YOU DON’T KNOW ME. So don’t dare tell me that I will go to hell for my ‘sins’ unless I repent to an entity I don’t and never will believe in no matter how kind your intentions might be.
I live in a conservative household with those who share different political beliefs and might kick me out if they knew about my sexuality in a world where Asian hate crime is on the rise, don’t tell me all those problems will magically go away just because I convert. Don’t tell me the fear I feel that people will leave me once I start sharing my culture because the government ducking sucks is going to go away because the almighty robe-wearing dude in the sky hears my prayers. Don’t dare tell me, that ‘you’re sinful’ to a person in such a ducking bad mind space that casual thoughts of death cross their mind every other week, all because I don’t believe in YOUR god.
I already feel slightly ignored when people say ‘God will bless you' or ‘you’re going to heaven’ by those who wanted to show appreciation due to the assumption of my beliefs but I can accept those as just that, good-natured comments by those who will remedy their statement if I ever bring it up. And this is all that times 100 but goes down about as well as cyanide.
Another point, fine disregard beliefs but, do you not notice the toxic ness associated with the type of Christianity you’re preaching? The whole persecution of gays and how many people have been kicked out by their OWN parents? Conversion camps that still exist in certain places in the world? Condemning others based on their identity, something they can’t ducking change in the name of god? The death of so many who don’t hold the same belief? The criminalising and further destruction of any religion that is not Christianity? So many pagan and other small religions, the witch hunts, the crusades. Christianity like all other religion has a rocky and turbulent history (and a very controversial present), do you not understand the ramification and subtext readers are going to see?? I don’t know what’s better, Minna being ignorant of these/brainwashed by a cult (in which case I feel sympathy and hope that she’d realise and get the duck out) or that she knows and woefully ignores it to push this toxic Christian agenda.
About the social credit system, it's a nifty idea. It’s interesting and shows the possibility of a future that goes full totalitarian. Media consumption is already modelled and used in a way to sway opinions (hiding or manipulating information) and this is a scenario where the governments take that and go extreme. What is a world where its people are so dictated by a system that can destroy their life in an instant if their opinion does not fit within the ‘standard’ like?
Now how that fits with China is interesting. The People’s Republic of China has a turbulent history from its inception due to the authoritative nature of its government. The persuasion of people giving up the metal utensils in their kitchen to make bullets to compete with the west by promising 3 a day meals from canteens and then contributing to the great Chinese famine that lasted at least 3 years and is attributed by many as one of the greatest famine in history and the greatest man-made disaster with a death count anywhere from 15 to 55 million. Where rice, WHITE RICE was a scarcity to be savoured. A period of time where sharing ‘radical’ beliefs or working certain jobs (including teachers)/connected with certain people could get you sent to re-education camps and put you to labour without hope on when you might ever see your family again if they didn’t get sent there with you. These are just old events, many of which the government hides to maintain a good image and avoid criticism of themself. Not that it matters because people already fear certain fate if they speak out within or outside the country, from fines, getting arrests or even blacklisted.
I feel, that the story and the world it presents (in the context of critiquing China) don’t actively explore these problems any more than at a surface level. It doesn’t even show or discuss the upside of the social credit system other than getting stuff and going fancier places. The credit system is also in place to condemn bad behaviour such as blasting music on trains, jaywalking and stealing. The condemning of different ideology is a major part of it, but it's not the whole of it. Besides, the idea of a credit system is not a Chinese one but a global one at large. Applying for a loan and the bank look at your social situation and background history to determine what you can apply for and how much money you can get, studying hard to get a high ATAR or GPA or any other score because higher education’s won't even look at you otherwise (volunteering just to look more appealing). The difference between these and a credit system china would implement is that banks and school scores all have a higher entity to report to, that can make sure they don’t go power crazy whilst the ccp answer to nobody with the sole power of the lives of over a billion people and has a history of human right violation.
Another point for me, regarding the story itself, is that the ending feels unrealistic. I understand the idea of escape when your current life is on the line but no escape from society is that easy, especially from an authoritarian government that can track your every move. The choice to escape also came a bit too abrupt, did they not have more to leave behind like extended family. Not everybody has the means to just escape an upsetting situation without any repercussion, without leaving something they don’t want to leave behind. Not only that but why do they not try to change things first? Protests, commentary, it may seem impossible but don’t any of them want to change the society they were born into and lived their whole lives better than just up and abandon it? Even spreading the map so that others can leave too if they want would be better than just nothing. This is not completely impossible either, after animal crossing new horizons was banned in China due to its use in online Hong Kong protests, people began selling it under pseudonyms of bass fishing 3000 and other names. When certain words and topics got censored on beidou and weibou, people started using slang so these topics can still be discussed. In one case people got so upset by the decision to censor LGBTQ+ related topics that they revolted and the decision had to be overturned. There are so many things other than running, isn’t it a Christian thing to ‘love thy neighbour’? why wouldn’t you try to help before crossing it off as a lost cause?
(I realise the points made in this paragraph are honestly really nitpicky and nonsensical and I hope the overall points are understandable)
All in all, this makes me upset. I’ll follow SSSS to its conclusion (too invested to just drop it) but I’m out unless something drastic changes.
Post by: Haiz on March 27, 2021, 01:39:46 PM
Hedge we are absolutely Vibing. thank you for the 23 points, it is a good number. there's also a lot of other replies in this thread that bring up so many good and interesting points (i've been following this thread ever since it started, despite not having looked at the forum for Actual Years before now) and it heartens me to see an actual discussion about Many Vulnerable Topics.
i planned to disappear into the aether again, but i actually wanted to plug a video i really like. there are a lot of really good and thoughtful video essays around the topic of 'cancel culture', being a creator online, and representation in your storytelling, ESPECIALLY after what went down with a certain j k rowling last year (a situation that somewhat mirrors this one. a creator of something that means a lot to a lot of people, uses her platform to publish a manifesto under the guise of concern that actively harms a lot of her audience, where almost any backlash towards it gets framed as harassment regardless of severity... i'm sure she's been snapped up by a cult-like community during a moment of vulnerability, but that doesn't mean what she's doing isn't deeply harmful to a community that is ALSO very vulnerable) -
anyway there is a talk by leighton gray titled "how indies can cope with being terminally online" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuZcdhXS770&t=1s) which i really like. i especially like that it taught me what 'context collapse' is, something that has been really useful to me.
i also wanted to dig up ab excerpt from brave new world that have stayed with me ever since i read the book, but ALL of the excerpts seem relevant... maybe i should just reread brave new world actually
Post by: pinkysaxton on March 27, 2021, 01:54:07 PM
I really didn't want to hurt anyone, and I won't be throwing any more Bible quotes in here. I'm afraid that's the best I can do before asking: what kind of apology would be comforting to you?
Honestly, this is the perfect start. I won't offer an answer, as my upset and offense was about the polarizing attitude Minna displayed and how her toxic message disturbed my reading patterns. But asking people what you can do for them shows compassion and a willingness to try something new. We all want people to 'just know' what's right (especially if we've spent a lot of time with someone, as you have with your friend who asks for Bible quotes), but we may still choose the wrong comfort. My boyfriend and I have been friends for over a decade, and sometimes he just plops down next to me on the couch and asks, "What can I do to help you feel less bad right now?"
So thanks for the question. I think people who were truly hurt may come back to it and give you an answer.
Post by: pinkysaxton on March 27, 2021, 02:26:35 PM
but my point is that if the bunny comic had like, actually explored what that christian faith means in a consumerist world, what real kindness looks like in a world of shallow niceties, that could've made for a more interesting story
This!! If she had used faith as a way of showing how it compelled people toward true kindness, I would have been very pleased. (Although I am somewhat smug about the previous posting, concerning the Rabbi, atheists, and kindness for kindness's sake.) I joined Instagram a few years ago after getting burned out on Tumblr, and my biggest frustration is how fake the niceness is. How performative people are. My boyfriend and I have cut a lot of friends off these last couple years (Yes, we are both lonely, but we realized we were just as lonely before.) because their friendships were just acts. They said what they were supposed to, but never followed it up with actions. We tried using social media during the pandemic to grow friends, and were met mostly with people who only wanted to talk when they were bored, lonely, self-pitying, and not in the mood for reciprocation. And we discovered that they never really left this state of mind.
How completely refreshing it would have been to take a (better-developed) world of constant performance and show people ignoring the points and showing true kindness. Even being persecuted and de-pointed because it made others uncomfortable to have that honesty reflect their fakeness. I see this comic as a lower form of the first Snot Girl volume – lesser panelling, pacing, and satire. I think that choosing a generic 'faith' and using it to show motivation for genuine compassion would have been well-received. Not only by the current fanbase, but by new readers who happen to be Christian. No, many of the new commenters on page 409 wouldn't have stuck with it. But you can still grow an audience with this message.
But, as I've said before, it sounds like being kind because it's the right thing to do it too far into 'self-improvement', even if it's not then used to show off to your followers.
Post by: Mélusine on March 27, 2021, 02:28:24 PM
Post by: Miragia on March 27, 2021, 03:13:30 PM
I keep thinking this thread has died down, and then I take another look at it the next morning (my time) and there's another two pages. I suspect this has to do with time zones.
Let me say, first of all, that if we'd heard this from Minna I think a lot of us would be feeling a lot better about this mess. Or at least a lot better about Minna.
But let me then say: your friend, like you, apparently grew up with Christianity, and retains at least some of what I'd call the back-of-the-head assumptions of Christianity: among them that the Bible, and the Christian testaments in particular, are a source of, as you say [in a later post], wisdom and comfort.
But to a lot of other people -- it's just another book. (As far as the Christian testaments are concerned, this includes Jews; even devout Jews.)
And to yet other people, that Bible is a cudgel they've been repeatedly hit over the head with. And to make it worse, the people who were doing the cudgelling may well have defended themselves against criticism of the damage they were doing by citing the very verse that you seemed to think would comfort those who were beaten with it.
Does that help to see the problem?
Please do keep trying.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts too. Yes, it does help. I understand that I made a mistake, and I'm sorry. That was a little rude to my friend, though. I know you mean well, but please take care not to repeat my mistake by making assumptions about people you know nothing about?
Honestly, this is the perfect start. I won't offer an answer, as my upset and offense was about the polarizing attitude Minna displayed and how her toxic message disturbed my reading patterns. But asking people what you can do for them shows compassion and a willingness to try something new. We all want people to 'just know' what's right (especially if we've spent a lot of time with someone, as you have with your friend who asks for Bible quotes), but we may still choose the wrong comfort. My boyfriend and I have been friends for over a decade, and sometimes he just plops down next to me on the couch and asks, "What can I do to help you feel less bad right now?"
So thanks for the question. I think people who were truly hurt may come back to it and give you an answer.
Um, okay. Thank you for the advice and for being patient with me. Glad to hear that you have a thoughtful boyfriend. ^^
Post by: Pessi on March 27, 2021, 03:52:06 PM
I don't think I've seen anyone mention this before but I find it really funny that in the Jesus segment, every bunny is brown, except Jesus who is white... I'm afraid we might have gotten our diversity representation in the worst way possible :'D *
In hindsight I think this segment illuminates very well what kind of Christ Minna actually has found. Gone is the humble carpenter, living and teaching among his peers. Minna's Christ is immaculately pure, shiny and well groomed, totally different from his followers by his immensely more noble looks, and extremely arrogant, condensending and judgemental by his carriage, facial expressions and whole mien.
Post by: thorny on March 27, 2021, 06:29:46 PM
Thank you for sharing your thoughts too. Yes, it does help. I understand that I made a mistake, and I'm sorry. That was a little rude to my friend, though. I know you mean well, but please take care not to repeat my mistake by making assumptions about people you know nothing about?
OK. On re-reading I see that I said your friend shared your assumptions, when what I meant to say was that your friend apparently still assumes this is true about the bible for themselves; I didn't mean to assume that they think the same way as you appeared to be thinking otherwise, and that they thought that it would be so for others.
Post by: Sc0ut on March 27, 2021, 06:54:49 PM
In hindsight I think this segment illuminates very well what kind of Christ Minna actually has found. Gone is the humble carpenter, living and teaching among his peers. Minna's Christ is immaculately pure, shiny and well groomed, totally different from his followers by his immensely more noble looks, and extremely arrogant, condensending and judgemental by his carriage, facial expressions and whole mien.
Well yeah. God is perfect and pure, people are sinful and icky, she said it herself. It's gonna be fun when she gets to the part about Jesus being both God and human in her theological studies :D Seems like nobody has spoiled that part for her yet.
Post by: tzelly on March 27, 2021, 08:23:47 PM
Well yeah. God is perfect and pure, people are sinful and icky, she said it herself. It's gonna be fun when she gets to the part about Jesus being both God and human in her theological studies :D Seems like nobody has spoiled that part for her yet.
I wander how long, if ever, it will take for her to realize how little she seems to understand about the theology she is preaching.
There is an analogy to knowledge I heard years ago that I think about regularly. Knowledge is like a circle, the area on the inside the circle is what you know and the diameter of the circle is what you dont know. At first it seems what you dont know is very little, a small diameter, so you think "oh wow, look at all I know! I must know close to everything!" So you learn more about what you dont know, increasing the area of the circle. Keep this up and slowly watch the diameter also increase, realizing over time you can never know everything. Only that you become more aware how little you truly know.
Post by: Tarnagh on March 27, 2021, 08:42:07 PM
I wander how long, if ever, it will take for her to realize how little she seems to understand about the theology she is preaching."The more I learn the more I learn there is to learn." - Me, but probably paraphrasing someone else that I've forgotten.
There is an analogy to knowledge I heard years ago that I think about regularly. Knowledge is like a circle, the area on the inside the circle is what you know and the diameter of the circle is what you dont know. At first it seems what you dont know is very little, a small diameter, so you think "oh wow, look at all I know! I must know close to everything!" So you learn more about what you dont know, increasing the area of the circle. Keep this up and slowly watch the diameter also increase, realizing over time you can never know everything. Only that you become more aware how little you truly know.
Or as one of my uncles used to say, "The less someone knows, the more they're gonna be sure they know everything."
And goodness yes there's so much to learn for any serious student of theology. The more I learned about religions in general (not via higher education, just personal curiosity and reading stuff), the less sense any of it made and I didn't even get that deeply into the weeds of it.
Post by: fyrekitty7 on March 27, 2021, 08:53:18 PM
Why isn't an artist allowed to express herself honestly anymore? Why is it such a problem to write anything even slightly controversial or challenging to the status quo? And if you do then be prepared for everyone to turn on you and twist and misconstrue all your words and actions against you. This mentality is going to be the downfall of us all, if people can't handle cartoon bunny 1984-lite without getting riled up and denouncing the author because you can't handle anything outside your group's way of thinking. Talk about intolerant...
Post by: fyrekitty7 on March 27, 2021, 09:04:53 PM
Post by: Yuuago on March 27, 2021, 09:11:36 PM
Post by: Sc0ut on March 27, 2021, 09:13:56 PM
This story is so much less provocative and controversial than, say 1984 or Animal Farm. Of course I'm sure you'd all like to see those books burned for being too bad and mean, or paranoid or whatever.
:'D:'D:'D Ok so are you 14, are you a troll or are you Minna?
Seriously now, we've been having over 20 pages of pretty nuanced and civil discussion of what various people do and don't like about the comic. Feel free to read it before casting stones, if you're so interested in why people are upset. But for starters I'm ready to bet you real money that nobody in this thread wants Orwell's books burned, that's hilarious. And absolutely nobody is pro threats and violence towards artists, that's not funny and just honestly rude of you to assume before reading any of our comments.
Post by: tzelly on March 27, 2021, 09:21:10 PM
I also think it's interesting how it's okay to mock Minna because she's Christian now, isn't that the very definition of intolerance? What if she were part of pretty much any other religion, saying anything remotely as mean or intolerant could probably be labeled as "hate speech".
You misunderstood the point of this conversation.
It is not to mock Minna for her new found belief, it is to help one another to express the hurt we felt from her disregard for how such a heavy handed religious message could be taken.
You may not be aware of it, but alot of people have been hurt in the name of religion, especially in (but not limited to) christianity. We are here for the fact that we were fans of Minna's work. And she kept the nature of the bunny comic a secret and alot of people were blindsided by it.
There is alot of well worded analysis and evaluation of what happend in this thread. I recommend taking some time to read it a bit more before making assumptions about other people's motives.
Post by: Mélusine on March 27, 2021, 09:22:18 PM
But for starters I'm ready to bet you real money that nobody in this thread wants Orwell's books burned, that's hilarious. And absolutely nobody is pro threats and violence towards artists, that's not funny and just honestly rude of you to assume before reading any of our comments.I came late in this thread and won't re-do everything, everyone explained, everyone has valuable reasons for her/his/their/... opinion, but I totally agree with what you wrote here Sc0ut.
Post by: Jellyfish on March 27, 2021, 09:26:12 PM
Spoiler: show
Post by: fyrekitty7 on March 27, 2021, 09:39:59 PM
:'D:'D:'D Ok so are you 14, are you a troll or are you Minna?
Seriously now, we've been having over 20 pages of pretty nuanced and civil discussion of what various people do and don't like about the comic. Feel free to read it before casting stones, if you're so interested in why people are upset. But for starters I'm ready to bet you real money that nobody in this thread wants Orwell's books burned, that's hilarious. And absolutely nobody is pro threats and violence towards artists, that's not funny and just honestly rude of you to assume before reading any of our comments.
I'm not saying people are threatening her. I'm saying we live in a world where that's an okay thing for people to do. And of course I read the comments, that's why I posted this. I simply didn't read all of them, just a random sampling of pages to find an average tone. Or am I expected to read an entire 20+ page thread back to back before commenting on a general atmosphere that's pretty immediately obvious? I'll admit my response was more on the severe side, but I'm tired of how quickly people turn on one another and throw people under the bus for not conforming. It's also interesting how I'm overreacting, but the backlash isn't overreacting at all, even a tiny bit, over a cutesy bunny story?
To me it almost seems like a lot of the people commenting didn't even read the story, and are just using it as an excuse to talk about how bad and intolerant they think Christianity is. I'm aware of the flaws of Christianity, but it's a big, big religion with a lot of very different groups within containing different sets of values, it's not a black and white matter of "Christian means Conservative cult mentality overly zealous weirdo". I didn't see intolerant messages in her story, it was pretty much just the classic dystopia formula but with a Christian theme mixed in. The main christian element in it was just people reading the bible, and not being able to, how is that offensive or indicative of super zealous conservative Christian behavior? Were the christian bunnies suppressing anyone, or in any way doing anything deemed offensive other than reading a book? I just find it really Ironic that a story about people being rejected from society just for reading the bible, is offending people because it has Christian themes and causing them to be "disappointed" in Minna. Well, I guess her score is gonna go down a big chunk from this story.
Post by: catbirds on March 27, 2021, 09:41:00 PM
Anyway, any dissenting responses to her comic are going to be ignored now, just as a heads-up. Minna's stated on her twitch stream today that she has no intention of tagging it or giving a warning or even accurate description of it in the comic summary, and her youtube video said something along the lines of "it's having the effect that I was hoping it would have," so whoever it was who brought up the possibility that this reaction was what she was hoping would happen... I guess you've won the world's worst lottery?
Post by: tzelly on March 27, 2021, 09:44:30 PM
WARNING: This post contains political opinions. If you don't want to be exposed to that, feel free to move along. I won't be hurt.Spoiler: show
Very well said, and thanks you for adding a warning.
If the anger is getting too much, you can try yelling into a pillow. Helps me when I get way too frustrated to form proper sentences.
Post by: catbirds on March 27, 2021, 09:46:25 PM
I didn't see intolerant messages in her story, it was pretty much just the classic dystopia formula but with a Christian theme mixed in. The main christian point in it was just people reading the bible, how is that so offensive? Were the christian bunnies suppressing anyone, or in any way doing anything deemed offensive other than reading a book? I just find it really Ironic that a story about people being rejected from society just for reading the bible, is offending people because it has Christian themes and causing them to be "disappointed" in Minna. Well, I guess her score is gonna go down a big chunk from this story.
No, the comic is about Christian bunnies being persecuted for being Christian, which does not happen in most western countries. Also, the comic goes out of its way to mock the use of inclusive pronouns and content warning labels, which is basically common courtesy on the internet now. If she wanted to make a story about a marginalized group being persecuted, then she should have written a story about a marginalized group being persecuted and done the necessary research. It's not impossible to write a rich story about another culture. For example, Coco was written by someone who just did research on Mexican culture. Minna just chose not to do that, and that's on her.
Post by: Róisín on March 27, 2021, 09:58:23 PM
To further complicate my viewpoint, I was homeschooled, largely by some of the older adults of my family, until my teens, in a multilingual, multifaith environment with access to a large and multilingual, many generations deep family library, (the internet was not yet invented) as well as access to the family farm and several different wild environments. As an older child I moved, with a small part of my family, from Europe to a farm in country Victoria, Australia. My mother had died when I was a small child, in a tuberculosis epidemic, and for much of my childhood I was lucky to see my father at intervals of several months, if even that often, because he was, like my grandfather, an army field medic. Then he was on active duty overseas, then a prisoner of war who suffered badly from the experience, after which my older brother and I, as well as several older relatives cared for him as we could in between his frequent hospital stays. I also began at that point in my life to attend a formal state school, and then to win scholarships to university, which my family could not otherwise have afforded. I did what nowadays would be called STEM subjects, while working several part time jobs to help support my family. I was in my teens when my dad remarried to a cousin of my late mother who was a Christian, and a widow with one child.
So I set myself to learn all I could about Christianity so as to be able to have a civilised dialogue on the subject with her, (being curious about everything) and hopefully not to give offence to her. My brother and I had not expected her assumption that once we were shown the One True Way we would of course convert instantly, nor the tactless, heavy handed and downright rude proselytising that we suffered, but we coped and in the end settled down to a civilised and mutually respectful family arrangement in which all parties came eventually to respect one another. I grew to respect her, and was grieved by her death.
Anyway, I grew up. Married. My first husband was a Pagan like myself though of a different kind. We gave the kids their own choice, having both understood early in our lives that religious faith was a matter between the individual soul and its god or gods, and both felt that this relationship was nobody else’s business unless it led to actions that intruded on other people.
I was widowed young, years later married an Anglican Christian, and am still happily married. Both of us retain our own faiths. He used to proselytise when he was young, but outgrew the tendency, and his proselytising probably did more good than harm, because it took the form of bearing witness and doing good. He and a group of his Young Anglican friends used to do what they called Beach Missions, where they would join the families and most particularly the surfers at seaside campgrounds and just be Christians. This suited Star, as he was a keen scuba diver and underwater photographer and was quite ready to share these skills with other people. They would have their Christian symbols around their camp, and the usual tracts and bibles, and would happily talk about their faith with anyone who wanted to, while they handed out water and sunscreen, and the members of their group who had training in those areas volunteered as surf lifesavers, first aiders, or did shark watch. I consider that a reasonable way to go about things, agreeing that ‘faith without works is dead’, and that loving and caring for one’s fellow man is a part of the Christian contract, at least the version of it inspired by the Christ.
There are a few other things I would like to talk about, but this is turning into a wall of text, so more later.
Post by: Tarnagh on March 27, 2021, 10:00:27 PM
:'D:'D:'D Ok so are you 14, are you a troll or are you Minna?100% all of this. On balance, after the last few comments, I'm settling on "troll." I award them one (1) response before relegating them to the oblivion folder:
Seriously now, we've been having over 20 pages of pretty nuanced and civil discussion of what various people do and don't like about the comic. Feel free to read it before casting stones, if you're so interested in why people are upset. But for starters I'm ready to bet you real money that nobody in this thread wants Orwell's books burned, that's hilarious. And absolutely nobody is pro threats and violence towards artists, that's not funny and just honestly rude of you to assume before reading any of our comments.
Spoiler: show
her youtube video said something along the lines of "it's having the effect that I was hoping it would have," so whoever it was who brought up the possibility that this reaction was what she was hoping would happen... I guess you've won the world's worst lottery?That'd have been me, I'm afraid. I'm used to being a Cassandra, and I know how the fundie mind works, sadly. I expected no less.
Post by: tzelly on March 27, 2021, 10:04:18 PM
People need trigger warnings for such things now? A cute bunny dystopia story with no violence or severe conflict, just a bible and black mirror themes, that's some very scarring stuff.
Well, if bunnies need content warnings then it is indeed worthy of being mocked. As far as the pronoun thing, it must have been subtle and in the background as I didn't notice anything like that.
First of all. We dont expect you to read everything if you dont want to. But I dout you've read anything people are saying at this point. Feels like skimming for key words to attack and make up the rest due to pre-affirmed assumption you came into the room with.
Trigger warnings are important, why? A person who was heavily traumatized by domestic violence could have a PTSD episode from content that is too close to what they experienced. A trigger warning is in place so they can decide if such content is too much for them and they can avoid it. Same applies to other forms of trauma.
Are you willing to be open minded to other people's experiences could be different then your own? Or is this insensitive behavior going to continue?
Post by: catbirds on March 27, 2021, 10:06:14 PM
People need trigger warnings for such things now? A cute bunny dystopia story with no violence or severe conflict, just a bible and black mirror themes, that's some very scarring stuff.
Like many people said earlier in the thread, the comic itself was just... not very good by many people's standards. If you found it compelling, that's your own opinion. No one has to find a good story good or a bad story bad, they're pretty subjective. The problem was that the afterword reminded people of traumatic experiences with Christianity (verbatim, apparently), and they got blindsided by it because the bunny comic was, as you said, a cute bunny dystopia story.
I feel like the best thing the fandom can do is let people know about that through this thread, hence the warning at the start.
Well, if bunnies need content warnings then it is indeed worthy of being mocked. As far as the pronoun thing, it must have been subtle and in the background as I didn't notice anything like that.
The bunnies themselves were not traumatizing for people. The pronoun thing is also very subtle, but it's mostly based on page 39 I think. The bottom panel mocked inclusive language that changed whatever the original text was to "Father/Mother/Universe," which seems to many people to be about how many texts went from using exclusively he or she to using he/she/they. You can take of it what you will, but when some people see things like this, it reminds them of when they were mocked for using pronouns which more accurately reflect their gender identity.
Post by: Yuuago on March 27, 2021, 10:10:17 PM
Trigger warnings are important, why? A person who was heavily traumatized by domestic violence could have a PTSD episode from content that is too close to what they experienced. A trigger warning is in place so they can decide if such content is too much for them and they can avoid it. Same applies to other forms of trauma.
Personally, I'm a fan of full and accurate description/summary of contents in general - knowing what a work is about can be pretty useful when deciding whether or not to read something even when triggers aren't a factor.
Post by: tzelly on March 27, 2021, 10:14:47 PM
Personally, I'm a fan of full and accurate description/summary of contents in general - knowing what a work is about can be pretty useful when deciding whether or not to read something even when triggers aren't a factor.
Absolutely, I read alot of Audio books, and I always read the summary to see if its something I am interested in at the time. Its very important to include an accurate one for any story, comic, etc.
Post by: moredhel on March 27, 2021, 10:36:33 PM
Why isn't an artist allowed to express herself honestly anymore? Why is it such a problem to write anything even slightly controversial or challenging to the status quo?
It is allowed to express feelings honestly. If you express someting controversial, other people are allowed to express honestly their feelings of not liking it. That a significant propotion of the audience does not like it, is pretty much part of the deifinition of controversial.
Nobody did try to not allow anything here. I did not read that somebody wanted to sue someone or bring someone to jail. Nobody was threatened in any way. Everybody discussed in a civilized way and that is fine.
Post by: Kevin_Redcrow on March 27, 2021, 10:59:10 PM
. He and a group of his Young Anglican friends used to do what they called Beach Missions, where they would join the families and most particularly the surfers at seaside campgrounds and just be Christians. This suited Star, as he was a keen scuba diver and underwater photographer and was quite ready to share these skills with other people. They would have their Christian symbols around their camp, and the usual tracts and bibles, and would happily talk about their faith with anyone who wanted to, while they handed out water and sunscreen, and the members of their group who had training in those areas volunteered as surf lifesavers, first aiders, or did shark watch.
I've just learned something new. Seriously, I had no idea that Anglicans evangelized.
Here in the United Snakes the Anglican Church is known the Episcopal Church. I once knew a man who'd grown up in an abusive family of a non-christian faith. He became a rabid atheist until he got into a recovery program. At some point he attended an Episcopal Sunday Service out of curioslity where, he said years later, he had a "White Light" experience.
I don't know if he continued to attend, but he did call that church "Catholicism without the guilt".
Post by: Róisín on March 27, 2021, 11:41:19 PM
Anglicans, in my small experience, are usually not the people banging on your door and shoving tracts into your hands, or the ones bailing you up in the street, in the library or at some public event, sometimes with a literal megaphone as well as a metaphorical one, and telling you that you are damned to hell by original sin and only total and unquestioning submission to their version of their god will save your innately sinful soul. But I can only speak from my own experience. Do we have any Anglicans here who can clarify?
Post by: pinkysaxton on March 28, 2021, 12:47:18 AM
Anyway, any dissenting responses to her comic are going to be ignored now, just as a heads-up. Minna's stated on her twitch stream today that she has no intention of tagging it or giving a warning or even accurate description of it in the comic summary, and her youtube video said something along the lines of "it's having the effect that I was hoping it would have," so whoever it was who brought up the possibility that this reaction was what she was hoping would happen... I guess you've won the world's worst lottery?
I've been searching for updates on CoH (to confirm that Minna's lost interest) and found a previous transcript of her live chats. (Posted October 19, 2018) At one point she's asked about internet drama. While she said she tries to stay out of it, because it's too much effort to get worked up about, Minna is very clear and repetitive that she likes watching the drama. In the context, it sounds like she'd rather be further back, and thinks the people who are in it cause it for the fame. But I think her comment about the comic having the right effect could be a decision to start some drama, then watch with "her bowl of popcorn" as she said years ago.
We've hashed out her narcissistic response of, "Don't worry, I'm not upset by your concerns." Now I'm quite certain that this sudden drop without any real teaser of the comic subject might not just be to lull people into reading it. (Or pushing us away, as it was hypothesized early.) We were told the day of/after the drop that she was reading all the comments. And now we see how Insta and Twitter are praising her and that the newest comments on 409 are generally defensive of her choices. It looks to me like a piece of why she released Lovely People and responded to the criticism this way is likely that she wanted that extra icing on the cake of internet drama surrounding her – without being an active player in the turmoil. Everyone else is stirring it up for her.
Post by: Engelszorn on March 28, 2021, 01:15:44 AM
I've been searching for updates on CoH (to confirm that Minna's lost interest) and found a previous transcript of her live chats. (Posted October 19, 2018) At one point she's asked about internet drama. While she said she tries to stay out of it, because it's too much effort to get worked up about, Minna is very clear and repetitive that she likes watching the drama. In the context, it sounds like she'd rather be further back, and thinks the people who are in it cause it for the fame. But I think her comment about the comic having the right effect could be a decision to start some drama, then watch with "her bowl of popcorn" as she said years ago.
We've hashed out her narcissistic response of, "Don't worry, I'm not upset by your concerns." Now I'm quite certain that this sudden drop without any real teaser of the comic subject might not just be to lull people into reading it. (Or pushing us away, as it was hypothesized early.) We were told the day of/after the drop that she was reading all the comments. And now we see how Insta and Twitter are praising her and that the newest comments on 409 are generally defensive of her choices. It looks to me like a piece of why she released Lovely People and responded to the criticism this way is likely that she wanted that extra icing on the cake of internet drama surrounding her – without being an active player in the turmoil. Everyone else is stirring it up for her.
I stayed away from her newest video because I had a hunch I would not like her reaction towards the discussion it has caused - nor would I like to hear her clarify her intention behind it. Causing drama for her own entertainment is not a a great character-trait to have. It's manipulative as f***. I don't know her personally, which makes me feel icky speculating about her character, so I'll just say to each and everyone who expected something different from her as a human being and by extension her comic(s): don't confuse being friendly with being a friend and an ally. I'm pretty sure that I don't need to "preach" that to people from groups that have been marginalized because of their appearance and sexual orientation and thus always are on their toes.. but I guess that is exactly what's happened. People felt safe enough to create a space around that fandom because they met like-minded people. Minna, just like with the drama-watching, had nothing to do with that.
Post by: Tarnagh on March 28, 2021, 01:42:48 AM
I've been searching for updates on CoH (to confirm that Minna's lost interest) and found a previous transcript of her live chats. (Posted October 19, 2018) At one point she's asked about internet drama. While she said she tries to stay out of it, because it's too much effort to get worked up about, Minna is very clear and repetitive that she likes watching the drama. In the context, it sounds like she'd rather be further back, and thinks the people who are in it cause it for the fame. But I think her comment about the comic having the right effect could be a decision to start some drama, then watch with "her bowl of popcorn" as she said years ago.I honestly think it goes beyond this. There's no such thing as bad publicity, after all.
We've hashed out her narcissistic response of, "Don't worry, I'm not upset by your concerns." Now I'm quite certain that this sudden drop without any real teaser of the comic subject might not just be to lull people into reading it. (Or pushing us away, as it was hypothesized early.) We were told the day of/after the drop that she was reading all the comments. And now we see how Insta and Twitter are praising her and that the newest comments on 409 are generally defensive of her choices. It looks to me like a piece of why she released Lovely People and responded to the criticism this way is likely that she wanted that extra icing on the cake of internet drama surrounding her – without being an active player in the turmoil. Everyone else is stirring it up for her.
Moderately harsh viewpoint on where this ends up. Spoilered for anyone who doesn't want to deal with a mini-rant.
Spoiler: show
Post by: wavewright62 on March 28, 2021, 03:34:36 AM
*mod hat firmly ON*
I need to remind you to please keep the discussion civil. We have had many of you come out of the woodwork for a place to sort out your own thoughts and feelings about 'Lovely People', and posted some really insightful dialogue and essays.
We've had some back and forth on dogma, scripture, fandom drama, storytelling, and personal experiences, and I applaud the grace of those who have listened and learnt something via the dialogue.
Armchair diagnoses of mental illness and psychological issues in others, are deeply offensive and not acceptable. (In this context, 'crazy', 'narcissistic', 'manipulative', and the like) This is especially true in light of the spaces we maintain to enable people to talk about their own struggles with mental health and personal crises, in a supportive and non-judgemental environment.
Belittling our younger members (what are you, 14?) is not acceptable. (11yo girls are the most justice-minded people on the planet, change my mind.) Please keep in mind that not all of us possess good grammar, compelling essay skills, and/or command of English. Naivete is also not a sackable offense.
If someone's comments are aggressive or confrontational, it doesn't give you licence to reply in kind. Consider professional sport, where 'but they started it' doesn't save you from a trip to the penalty box.
Shouting others down by simply repeating your statements is not acceptable (granted, not a lot of that at this point, but after a week it's a danger).
*mod hat off*
I quite like spoiler approach as recently demonstrated by Tarnagh and Jellyfish. This does allow for a bit of a rant under a suitable warning, 'yelling into a pillow' in the apt phrase. (Posting content warnings on statements is, shall I say, a key take-home from this week.) Keep it classy, stay within the Forum quidelines, and you're good to go. That doesn't mean tit-for-tat and insults will be acceptable under the spoilers.
Post by: Róisín on March 28, 2021, 03:52:26 AM
Wavewright, glad you feel you can moderate this discussion. Thanks for that.
Post by: Tarnagh on March 28, 2021, 04:11:27 AM
Tarnagh, pretty much that. And that quote from Henley’s ‘Invictus’ below your post.....that is a poem I love. And it chimes in with my own Pagan viewpoint that every individual needs to take responsibility for their own judgements and their actions based on those judgements. You can’t just ‘cast your burdens on the lord and bear a song away’, while leaving behind the scorched earth ruins caused by your previous actions, and taking no responsibility for any of it.Invictus is my favorite poem, hands down. With everything life has thrown at me, it's pretty much the underpinning of whatever you'd want to call the ideology by which I live my life. I don't have a name for it. "Atheist," I suppose. The whole "don't be a dick" thing I've mentioned of course, but ultimately no matter what, personal responsibility is paramount. I am responsible for what I do, how I act, how I treat others. I'm answerable only to myself for that. I try not to let myself down too often. :)
Wavewright, glad you feel you can moderate this discussion. Thanks for that.
One of the first belief systems I turned to after I left Christianity was Wicca. I still keep a shadow of The Rule of Three with me. I call it "The Law of Karmic Returns." Or, as Newton put it, "For every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction."
ETA: One of the things that I've kept from That Time in My Life was something - ironically enough - that I heard a pastor tell us in chapel one day. The gist of it was that "Christian" means "Christ-like." That is, living our lives to the best of our ability the way Christ lived his. In the sense of *that* definition, I'm still a "Christian" because I've cared for the sick, I've helped the poor, I feed everyone ... my children are in their 30s now but when they were growing up, I just did a head count to see how many of their friends I was feeding that night. "Seventeen? Okay so that's THREE boxes of pasta ..." The few that are still living this this area still call me "Mum." I guess the difference is that I do these things because I grok that they're just the right thing to do, not out of hope for any eternal reward or fear of any eternal damnation.
Post by: Róisín on March 28, 2021, 04:26:18 AM
But yeah, I do think taking personal responsibility for your actions and their consequences is a biggie.
Post by: Engelszorn on March 28, 2021, 04:29:57 AM
Post by: Tarnagh on March 28, 2021, 04:32:46 AM
Boddhisatva?Obviously not a Buddhist, but I've heard that term before from somewhere in my travels. I just looked it up (you did spell it correctly :) ) -
Boddhisatva: (in Mahayana Buddhism) a person who is able to reach nirvana but delays doing so out of compassion in order to save suffering beings.
I don't know if I'm as enlightened as all that, but compassion and empathy certainly drive me. I've been through Rather A Lot over the years, and I can relate on a personal level to people who are struggling in various ways because of that.
And yes. Personal responsibility. Always.
Post by: Sc0ut on March 28, 2021, 05:06:31 AM
Belittling our younger members (what are you, 14?) is not acceptable.
Feel like I need to clarify this since I'm the one quoted. My intent was not to belittle younger members, though I understand why it reads like that. In fact, maybe you remember (or can check back) earlier yesterday I had responded to another member who seemed young to me with entirely different wording, because their own approach was different.
My experience is that when someone enters a space that was civil with obviously inflammatory behaviour and a mod is not around to immediately step in, the best response is to make a short comment that clearly describes their behaviour as inacceptable, so as to prevent people wasting too much time on long, good faith answers that try to argue with the troll (which is exactly what they want, and will often derail the discussion by focusing everyone's attention on them). That was the context in which I used that phrase. Offering another possibility to just "this sounds like trollish behaviour to me" was an attempt to be generous and provide them with an out in case they really did not mean to offend. And well, to me commenting without quite literally reading the room first, letting emotions run amok, and feeling smart and special for having the most predictable opinion is in fact consistent with the behaviour of some (though certainly not all) young teens online. For the record, I have had the experience of responding in good faith to what immediately looked like trollish behaviour in this community way back, because I was trying to follow community standards closely, and that lead to pages and pages of well meaning people trying to nicely explain things to a troll and getting angrier and angrier because of being constantly miscontrued, until a mod belatedly understood what was going on and intervened, so I for one am not doing that again - if I see behaviour that looks trollish, I'm calling it out, even if I remain open to the possibility that I'm misinterpreting it.
That being said, I do value the younger members of fandom spaces, I know they don't all behave like this (and even if they do it's not even that big of a deal, until they attack others like fyrekitty did) and in the light of that I will try to express what I mean in a different way, if something similar happens again, and I appreciate the mod note.
Post by: fyrekitty7 on March 28, 2021, 05:47:06 AM
It's interesting that it is seemingly offensive for me to be defending Minna on a forum dedicated to her work, but it's okay for others to essentially mock, demean, and insult her, looking for the worst possible interpretation of what she's said. Seeing how offended people are at the bunny story it's not unexpected, it's sad to see though.
Post by: JoB on March 28, 2021, 07:05:41 AM
The teaching that you are fundamentally terrible is badI agree that it can easily get grating, but the fact is that even if you were to remove all religions from the face of Earth, that concept would still be very much alive and well. Look at ecological footprint, look at what modern psychology (and criminology) has found out about the base instincts in every human being, look at pretty much every philosopher telling people they ought to change, look at the parents pondering whether they should send their kid to a Better School™ and trying to match the effect on the kid's later income to the expense. "You start out negative [to everyone else] and need to improve, pronto" all around, and not all of them are just ideological make-believe.
i DO respect her decisions to end the comic whenever she wants to end it (it's probably a mercy at this point), not wanting to work on certain projects anymoreIndeed, us disagreeing as much as we may want with what Minna wants to focus on instead does not make us a iota more entitled to see her continue doing SSSS than we were before.
Also, I've been wondering what continuing SSSS might do to Minna, assuming that we're reading her right as saying "I'm continuing this for y'all but my heart isn't it anymore". It threatens to paint her memory of SSSS as a time where she was lugging a ball and chain along, preventing her from doing what she wanted, and such a memory might cause her not to want to come back to it even if she turns away from her current path later on. A year-or-so of "meh, for old times' sake" in return for slamming the door eternally shut behind her, is that the deal we want ... ?
(Of course, right now, we probably couldn't get the message of "it's OK, don't bother" across to Minna if we tried, so it's an academic question for now ...)
It's gonna be fun when she gets to the part about Jesus being both God and human in her theological studies :D Seems like nobody has spoiled that part for her yet.God sent Jesus to reshape the world, which obviously needed someone to get His hands dirty, but for a divine and eternal end; I don't think that that will cause a double-take.
Missing the entire new-testamentarian vibe of God, Jesus, and their plan loving the whole of humanity and giving them all more and more chances to redeem themselves before Armageddon hits, rather than Just Getting Over With It™, is much more of a biggie IMHO.
This story is so much less provocative and controversial than, say 1984 or Animal Farm. Of course I'm sure you'd all like to see those books burned for being too bad and mean, or paranoid or whatever.I work in German IT with all its privacy protection laws and *I* whack people with a figurative 1984 when they're not paranoid enough to see the point of such protection. Try again.
But I think her comment about the comic having the right effect could be a decision to start some drama, then watch with "her bowl of popcorn" as she said years ago.Hm. At the same time, when it comes to contact with actual humans, Minna tries to avoid it if at all possible - like, back when setting up in Mora, getting anxious about the technician coming to connect her land line, or about visiting the woman who'd be her accountant. I'm under the impression that making the conclusion you propose would be even worse news, as in a total mental one-eighty, or complete dehumanization of "net people" ...
It looks to me like a piece of why she released Lovely People and responded to the criticism this way is likely that she wanted that extra icing on the cake of internet drama surrounding her – without being an active player in the turmoil. Everyone else is stirring it up for her.
Post by: Sc0ut on March 28, 2021, 07:29:56 AM
Also, I've been wondering what continuing SSSS might do to Minna, assuming that we're reading her right as saying "I'm continuing this for y'all but my heart isn't it anymore". It threatens to paint her memory of SSSS as a time where she was lugging a ball and chain along, preventing her from doing what she wanted, and such a memory might cause her not to want to come back to it even if she turns away from her current path later on.
This is a good point. I for one would prefer if SSSS were left on a hiatus indefinitely at the nearest non-cliffhanger point, with the possibility of Minna returning to it when and if she genuinely wants to draw it again, rather than her trudging through making hundreds of pages that *she* doesn't enjoy and her new found audience might not either, at a time when she has alienated a large part of her traditional following to varying degrees. As disappointed as I am in her recent behaviour, there's a small part of me that hopes she will change her world view again, this time for the better (by which I don't necessarily mean I dream of her becoming an atheist again, just maybe adopting a more moderate and tolerant understanding of Christianity, the one she mocked in her new comic, that is).
Post by: Dilandu on March 28, 2021, 07:40:25 AM
Armchair diagnoses of mental illness and psychological issues in others, are deeply offensive and not acceptable. (In this context, 'crazy', 'narcissistic', 'manipulative', and the like)
As old Russian proverb states, "every groundhog which eat a bit of grain, claimed himself to be agronomist")
Post by: Róisín on March 28, 2021, 07:45:25 AM
But I certainly encountered enough people being objectionable because they had no custom and usage that required them to treat people decently. Yet by having civil and patient interactions with them, and by gently and repeatedly explaining what was the nature of our custom and usage here, at least some of them turned into pillars of the Forum and the Commentariat. And several of them explained that the reason that they had initially behaved so badly was because they had thought that that was the norm for the whole Internet, because it had been so in the sections that they had previously frequented.
When I first joined, my beloved said to me that I had ‘lucked into the deep end of the Internet’ with these sites. I think, at the time, he was right, and I really hope that we may eventually return to being one of the more civilised and considerate sites on the internet. Good manners, courtesy and consideration for others are not things which I consider signs of weakness and of being easy to exploit, but rather indications that we are in a good place to have informative and interesting discussions. Long may we continue so!
(By the way, for anyone who is interested, I spoke to Star on the phone tonight, and things continue to slowly improve for him. And I have a lift to the hospital tomorrow to visit him, which saves me a painful hour-long walk, and lets me bring him more clean clothes and library books and some of Dusty’s apples ( most of my apple crop failed this year, but Dusty’s place is more sheltered than is ours. So all good!)
Post by: Gwenno on March 28, 2021, 08:36:28 AM
You all are missing my point completely....
While you are free to your own interpretation, I'd strongly encourage you to have a closer look through the thread so far in more detail before settling on this conclusion. Yes, I know it's a long read by now, but if this is really that important to you, it will probably be worth your while.
The points that you are making have not only been addressed, but they have been discussed in great detail multiple times, and it is no Minnion's responsibility to use up their time and emotional energy to respond if you are unwilling to do the same.
For other Minnions, please be aware that fyrekitty's posts are moderated as a precautionary measure and they may be some time in replying if there isn't a mod online to approve them (and their posts may be 'hidden' behind newer ones if the thread has been busy). I am hoping that this discussion can continue in good faith and have been thoroughly impressed by the behaviour displayed here so far, but we are a small moderating team and can't keep an eye on the thread and forum 24/7, unfortunately. If you suspect bad intent, please report the post to alert us, and we'll do our best to help.
Post by: Miragia on March 28, 2021, 08:40:25 AM
The bunnies themselves were not traumatizing for people. The pronoun thing is also very subtle, but it's mostly based on page 39 I think. The bottom panel mocked inclusive language that changed whatever the original text was to "Father/Mother/Universe," which seems to many people to be about how many texts went from using exclusively he or she to using he/she/they. You can take of it what you will, but when some people see things like this, it reminds them of when they were mocked for using pronouns which more accurately reflect their gender identity.
Perhaps someone would like to explain this one to me next? ^^
It has me a little confused. As a Christian I am not upset by the Father/Mother/Universe thing because I in any way want to make anyone feel excluded from Christianity (and I really don't think most Christians would want such a thing) or mocked for being who they are (okay, apparently many Christians are guilty of that one, which is very, very sad). But Jesus chose to use "Father". Why is it so hard for people who have struggled for their own right to the pronouns they prefer to respect God's decision to what he prefers?
Sc0ut, I have found that responding with courtesy and patience, at least in the initial stages of the conversation, or until the person proves beyond doubt that they are just being a dick to sow discord, is the best policy.
Also, Róisín, I find your approach commendable. ^^
Post by: JoB on March 28, 2021, 08:52:44 AM
For other Minnions, please be aware that fyrekitty's posts are moderated as a precautionary measure and they may be some time in replying if there isn't a mod online to approve them (and their posts may be 'hidden' behind newer ones if the thread has been busy).Out of interest, do you mean that when such a post is eventually released, it will not mark the thread as having new content, and if it has other new content, clicking the "new" button will not take us to that "oldest seemingly-new post"?
I'm a bit confused because that's not what I remember from the occasions when posts or threads were moved after the fact, at least ...
Post by: thorny on March 28, 2021, 09:02:58 AM
You all are missing my point completely, and missing the irony of this very situation.
Speaking of irony --
fyrekitty7, attacking the thread and the group as a whole with blanket and inaccurate accusations is obviously getting you nowhere. Go back and read the thread -- yes, all 20 pages. (It's still a whole lot shorter than the Bible, no?) If you find, anywhere in there, a specific post saying that Minna (or for that matter Orwell) should not be allowed to publish; or a specific post saying that nobody ought to be Christian; or a specific post that matches anything else in your descriptions of this thread as a whole -- then quote that post (accurately, please; you can trim it, but not in a way that changes the sense), and respond to that post. I don't think you're going to find anything such, or at most an isolated sentence or two somewhere in those 20 pages; but as you think you can, then go find it, and show us the evidence.
In the process of doing that reading, please consider the possibility that you might learn something.
I for one would prefer if SSSS were left on a hiatus indefinitely at the nearest non-cliffhanger point, with the possibility of Minna returning to it when and if she genuinely wants to draw it again, rather than her trudging through making hundreds of pages that *she* doesn't enjoy and her new found audience might not either
Agreeing with this. This adventure of SSSS on its original track, judging by the first adventure, would probably have run at least another year and more likely two. That seems to me an extraordinary length of time to keep putting that amount of energy into a work if she's no longer interested in it. I think it would be better if she brings it to a point at which we find out what happens to Grandma and who survives immediately after that, and end it there at least for now. If she has to leave the survivors sitting around a fire out in the wilderness -- so be it.
(By the way, for anyone who is interested, I spoke to Star on the phone tonight, and things continue to slowly improve for him. And I have a lift to the hospital tomorrow to visit him, which saves me a painful hour-long walk, and lets me bring him more clean clothes and library books and some of Dusty’s apples ( most of my apple crop failed this year, but Dusty’s place is more sheltered than is ours. So all good!)
I am so very glad to see this!
Post by: Jellyfish on March 28, 2021, 10:30:43 AM
Post by: catbirds on March 28, 2021, 10:37:37 AM
As a Christian I am not upset by the Father/Mother/Universe thing because I in any way want to make anyone feel excluded from Christianity (and I really don't think most Christians would want such a thing) or mocked for being who they are (okay, apparently many Christians are guilty of that one, which is very, very sad). But Jesus chose to use "Father". Why is it so hard for people who have struggled for their own right to the pronouns they prefer to respect God's decision to what he prefers?
Oh, I think we may have a bit of a misunderstanding here. Minna changed the text in the bible in the context of her comic from "father" I presume to "father/mother/universe," which is not a direct jab at God or Jesus, just a jab at when a lot of texts (NOT the bible, the bible just happens to be the only book mentioned in the bunny comic) went from using exclusively EITHER he or she to using inclusive pronouns like he/she/they. Now most people can just use "they" in speech, so the he/she/they part is not totally accurate.
I don't think anyone actually cares to revise the bible to the point where "Father" is actually changed to "Father/Mother/Universe," the bunny comic itself was just a hypothetical situation. I've read parts of the bible and I have always liked learning about history, so I value its many testaments as they are despite not really having a faith. But I am talking about how the way Minna chose to alter it in her comic is a jab at inclusive pronoun use.
Overall, this is a relatively small part of the text that I did not think many people would discuss, considering the other, bigger problems people have pointed out. I still hope my explanation helps.
Post by: Gwenno on March 28, 2021, 12:05:04 PM
Out of interest, do you mean that when such a post is eventually released, it will not mark the thread as having new content, and if it has other new content, clicking the "new" button will not take us to that "oldest seemingly-new post"?
I'm a bit confused because that's not what I remember from the occasions when posts or threads were moved after the fact, at least ...
This is slightly different to moving posts. The posts by a moderated member are still present within the thread, but they aren't visible to anyone other than mods until we either approve or reject them. Once they are approved, they are visible to everyone, located at the time when the post was originally made (possibly *before* other posts which have been made since that time), rather than at the time it was approved. As for whether you will receive a notification to say there is new content, I'm not entirely sure and will need to check.
Thorny - just be kind and you should be fine :) We want to keep this thread open as a place for people to express both their well thought out opinions, but also their hurt, their anger and their confusion, both at the comic itself and at the response to it (or their enjoyment of the comic, that's a valid response too). Disagreements are going to happen, as are posts that push against our worldviews and make us uncomfortable, but so long as the discussion remains understanding and civil there's no problem!
Miragia - I appreciate you coming on this thread and giving your perspective as a Christian, as I'm sure it can't be an easy thing to read through so much content where the faith that brought you comfort has caused harm to others. I have huge respect for people who are willing to admit they were wrong and try to understand and grow from the experience (one of the reasons why I'm so disappointed in Minna tbh). Please continue to talk with us :) I've been a bit worried that the content of this thread as a whole might make our Christian Minnions feel unwelcome or defensive, but this forum is for them as well, and the many posts by Christians on this thread have given me a much better understanding of the message as they read it, and as Minna (possibly) intended, which is something I would have had difficulty with by myself.
Post by: blabo on March 28, 2021, 12:07:39 PM
Overall, this is a relatively small part of the text that I did not think many people would discuss, considering the other, bigger problems people have pointed out.
I would argue that this is actually pretty central. The criticism directed at inclusiveness and political correctness is perhaps even more explicit than the one directed at consumerism. PC and inclusive language - viewed as "fake", forced by the authority, and in opposition to being true to oneself and one's own beliefs - are actually used as a trigger to the turning point in the plot. They are portrayed as the threat to Christianity / the Bible.
Post by: Hedge on March 28, 2021, 12:17:36 PM
I agree that it can easily get grating, but the fact is that even if you were to remove all religions from the face of Earth, that concept would still be very much alive and well. Look at ecological footprint, look at what modern psychology (and criminology) has found out about the base instincts in every human being, look at pretty much every philosopher telling people they ought to change, look at the parents pondering whether they should send their kid to a Better School™ and trying to match the effect on the kid's later income to the expense. "You start out negative [to everyone else] and need to improve, pronto" all around, and not all of them are just ideological make-believe.
Hah, absolutely. It's definitely not just limited to religion in general or Christianity in particular, but I think there's certain flavours of/approaches to it that are more...prevalent in some systems. Spoiler content: mild mental health stuff, Calvinism, Conservative Christianity & The Discourse (social and environmental justice) rambling
Spoiler: show
Quote
Also, I've been wondering what continuing SSSS might do to Minna, assuming that we're reading her right as saying "I'm continuing this for y'all but my heart isn't it anymore". It threatens to paint her memory of SSSS as a time where she was lugging a ball and chain along, preventing her from doing what she wanted, and such a memory might cause her not to want to come back to it even if she turns away from her current path later on. A year-or-so of "meh, for old times' sake" in return for slamming the door eternally shut behind her, is that the deal we want ... ?
(Of course, right now, we probably couldn't get the message of "it's OK, don't bother" across to Minna if we tried, so it's an academic question for now ...)
God sent Jesus to reshape the world, which obviously needed someone to get His hands dirty, but for a divine and eternal end; I don't think that that will cause a double-take.
Also this, we all hate the dreaded "indefinite hiatus" when a webcomic creator loses their joy for a project but like, webcomics are a lot of work and I don't want people to be doing it out of obligation when once it was a labour of love. This comic has brought us all a lot of joy for a long time and I'd hate to see her leaving it behind with bitterness.
Post by: Sc0ut on March 28, 2021, 12:31:19 PM
I would argue that this is actually pretty central. The criticism directed at inclusiveness and political correctness is perhaps even more explicit than the one directed at consumerism. PC and inclusive language - viewed as "fake", forced by the authority, and in opposition to being true to oneself and one's own beliefs - are actually used as a trigger to the turning point in the plot. They are portrayed as the threat to Christianity / the Bible.
Agreed. The consumerism criticism is actually very weak, it almost seems to me that it's a bait to get people to nod along and let their guard down for what follows. Despite taking so much space in the comic (and in some of the readers' takeaway from it) we don't see any punishment whatsoever for bunnies who don't engage in endorsed influencer-style consumerism - they just don't get the extra points, but none are deducted from them either for not buying enough or for being friends with other people who are not enthusiastic consumers.
On the other hand, not updating your Bible, reading the original version and even being friends with other bunnies who do despite not reading it yourself, all decrease your score, and severely so, as we've seen. The World Council explicitly cares way more about controlling bunnies' religion than their consuming habits.
Post by: thorny on March 28, 2021, 12:47:13 PM
there's a difference between "we should try to be better people than we are"/"we all have an instinct for cruelty that we must be aware of" and "we must try to be better because we're all objectively and automatically terrible/unclean/impure/trash people".
And also a very large difference between "we all have negative tendencies as well as positive ones; we need to be aware of the negative ones and should try to encourage the positive ones" and "we are all utterly and irredeemably worthless and there's no sense in trying to be any better."
while they've changed the views they were raised with on what specific details make someone a good or bad person, they still (understandably) tend to approach it through the same mental framework:
Yup; what I call "back-of-the-head assumptions."
We've all got them. And they are very hard to see -- until one sees them, at which point they may suddenly look glaring.
I've found at least some of mine; hauled out into the light where the entire mind can look at them I agree with some of them but have done my best to get rid of others. I do wonder what might still be in there that I haven't seen yet.
Post by: Maple on March 28, 2021, 12:51:47 PM
On the other hand, not updating your Bible, reading the original version and even being friends with other bunnies who do despite not reading it yourself, all decrease your score, and severely so, as we've seen. The World Council explicitly cares way more about controlling bunnies' religion than their consuming habits.
Also, all of that needs to be seen through the lens of "this is in here for a reason." This isn't a real-life event where things just happen, and after the fact you can go "that's weird how that ended up!" This is a work of fiction, and each word and each panel was created by Minna. If it wasn't important to the story, then it wouldn't be in the comic.
I know some people are trying not to make assumptions about Minna, and I respect that. But I still have to ask the question: Why was this in the comic? Why did this corrupt government- which is 100% fictional and made for the purpose of the story, so every action they take was written on purpose- decide to target Christians explicitly and to such lengths? What narrative purpose does it serve?
The answers I'm coming up with on my own aren't that hopeful either.
Post by: catbirds on March 28, 2021, 01:39:28 PM
I know some people are trying not to make assumptions about Minna, and I respect that. But I still have to ask the question: Why was this in the comic? Why did this corrupt government- which is 100% fictional and made for the purpose of the story, so every action they take was written on purpose- decide to target Christians explicitly and to such lengths? What narrative purpose does it serve?
The answers I'm coming up with on my own aren't that hopeful either.
Spoiler: more rambling? • show
Post by: Kevin_Redcrow on March 28, 2021, 01:44:28 PM
I based my opinion on the content of her creative works, introductory comments on each new comic page, and a paltry two videos she posted, Hence the opening statement in my first-ever posting on this thread and in this forum: I did not see this coming
To those of you who feel that Minna is being attacked: This may very well be the case of a few people here. But the motivation for this is likely not a blind act of prejudice, but from a deep sense of loss. At least, this is the basis of my disappointment and disillusionment. A true attack would be from a random troll from outside of the fandom.
A few pages back I saw a very raw, angry attack apparently addressed to Ms Sundberg directly. I agree with the Moderator's reply about keeping things civil in this Forum(and his "sigh" gave me a chuckle). And I want to commend the moderators for allowing that one post to stand. I can relate to the raw internal reaction this poster must have been feeling. There was a time in my younger days when that would have been my own reaction.
In the end, I hope for an outcome which will at least partly gratify all of us: Ms. Sundberg, her social-media followers, and the fans of SSSS. Barring that, I hope to find acceptance of what ever the outcome is.
Post by: pinkysaxton on March 28, 2021, 01:46:24 PM
This is a good point. I for one would prefer if SSSS were left on a hiatus indefinitely at the nearest non-cliffhanger point, with the possibility of Minna returning to it when and if she genuinely wants to draw it again, rather than her trudging through making hundreds of pages that *she* doesn't enjoy and her new found audience might not either, at a time when she has alienated a large part of her traditional following to varying degrees. As disappointed as I am in her recent behaviour, there's a small part of me that hopes she will change her world view again, this time for the better (by which I don't necessarily mean I dream of her becoming an atheist again, just maybe adopting a more moderate and tolerant understanding of Christianity, the one she mocked in her new comic, that is).
I think it was lucky that Minna had to take a few extra weeks to finish the comic, because this prompt chapter break will hopefully help her that figure out. I know she said she'll continue with it, (to the end of this book instead of the adventure maybe?) but once she gets inspiration for her next story she may decide to funnel her energy elsewhere. And I think once 409 dies down and her audience decreases (either back to where is was without the newbies or with less of the old crowd), she may feel less of that burden to complete the story arc.
And who knows, if this is a temporary thing and she reels back on the fundamentalism, she may be glad to have cut it off early and give her a chance come back to it later. Without feeling the need to redo some of the panels.
Post by: SkyWhalePod on March 28, 2021, 02:05:45 PM
I don't have a lot to say about the comic's themes that hasn't already been said, so I'll try not to write a wall about them. I think I fall into the same camp as most of the people here: religious faith can be a wonderful thing, self-deprecating faith and evangelism is alarming and can be harmful, the sci-fi aspects of the comic are interesting and could be expanded upon. That's an extremely truncated, dry synopsis, but it's good enough.
In keeping with recent practice, I'm putting my gratitude/long story below the spoiler cut:
Spoiler: show
ETA: Kevin_Redcrow and Gwenno beat me to the humanist punch and I totally agree with you guys :P
Post by: hollow on March 28, 2021, 02:51:26 PM
It brings up an interesting question for me, one that I don't think we can answer because, again, we don't know Minna: did her conversion occur in response to these dystopian trends she saw arising in the world, and that's why the story goes the way it goes? Or did she start writing the story first with a different vision for the conclusion, become convinced of her own sinfulness, and then tug the story sideways? That stream-of-consciousness feeling I get from the whole thing suggests a lack of beginning-to-end planning, which means that this comic might be an interesting artifact preserving the process of Minna's conversion to Christianity. . . .
I was wondering about some of these questions myself! As you say there's a total limit on speculation. In the end there are some things we can't and won't know about Minna's life. However, the story (Lovely People) feels almost split into two. There's a story about the dangers of the internet age and then there's a story about Christian faith and persecution. The two have connections between them (surveillance dystopia can lead to persecution of Christians) but on the whole they feel separate. It makes me wonder if Minna started writing a story about the social credit system (as she explains in the end notes) and then suddenly converted in the middle, leading her to retroactively add in all the Christian subplot and add the end text that seems so disconnected from the rest of the story.
I have read the entire thread as of now, and as many others have said, thank you moderators! This whole thread has been cathartic. I feel like I've lost a story and an artist who I greatly admired, yet gained access to a wonderful community of thoughtful people.
Post by: Sc0ut on March 28, 2021, 03:07:49 PM
Spoiler: show
Post by: Raaffiie on March 28, 2021, 03:18:09 PM
Gleaning some random data from pages 23-25 of this topic, I am becoming aware of the frustration that none of us can fully know why this happened. We each base our opinion of Ms. Sundberg on the particular combination of her postings, content of her creative works, and audio commentary of her videos. And allow me to add: things said by each of us in the fandom.
I based my opinion on the content of her creative works, introductory comments on each new comic page, and a paltry two videos she posted, Hence the opening statement in my first-ever posting on this thread and in this forum: I did not see this coming
Thank you for putting that feeling into words. I've mostly been staying out of the discussion, as I don't think I have much to add, and Minna's words didn't hurt me personally as they did some others. But even so, there is that feeling of loss.
Personally, I don't really believe the art can be separated from the artist; it's just that a given work only shows a very limited part of an artist's personality. I cannot claim to really know Minna, but through her work I had the very minimum of ideas of what she was like, through her sense of humour and how she used different cultures in her writing. At the same time she made it no secret that she was quite isolated, and I often disagreed with the way that she handled things. Still, I'm having a lot of difficulty connecting the dots.
Contrasting her recent behaviour with her earlier writing, on the CoH blog for instance, I can't help but feel that she's ended up in a very dark place mentally, particularly since the pandemic really took hold. But at the same time, I feel that it's massively presumptuous of me to speculate like that about someone I only know of in a very limited capacity. Going back in the SSSS archive and further back to aRTD, I keep wondering when she started thinking like this, or if this was always a part of her. It's not just that I strongly disagree with Minna - if it was only that, I could just distance myself from her work, even though that would still sting a bit. As is, I just don't know how to place it.
Post by: Miragia on March 28, 2021, 03:44:28 PM
Oh, I think we may have a bit of a misunderstanding here. Minna changed the text in the bible in the context of her comic from "father" I presume to "father/mother/universe," which is not a direct jab at God or Jesus, just a jab at when a lot of texts (NOT the bible, the bible just happens to be the only book mentioned in the bunny comic) went from using exclusively EITHER he or she to using inclusive pronouns like he/she/they. Now most people can just use "they" in speech, so the he/she/they part is not totally accurate.
I don't think anyone actually cares to revise the bible to the point where "Father" is actually changed to "Father/Mother/Universe," the bunny comic itself was just a hypothetical situation. I've read parts of the bible and I have always liked learning about history, so I value its many testaments as they are despite not really having a faith. But I am talking about how the way Minna chose to alter it in her comic is a jab at inclusive pronoun use.
Overall, this is a relatively small part of the text that I did not think many people would discuss, considering the other, bigger problems people have pointed out. I still hope my explanation helps.
I agree that we may have a misunderstanding, but I suspect it might be on both sides of this one. Even if I don't talk to a lot of other Christians and thus have never seen it in person, I do occasionally look at a Christian news site along with the more secular one I usually follow. While the Bible wasn't directly involved, this is a topic I have seen under debate there, some advocating that it is more inclusive to refer to God as female/insert-other-term, while others disagree. So that conflict likely isn't something that Minna just made up out of the blue, and chances are she wasn't aiming a jab at inclusivity as a whole with it, but rather at those who speak of inclusivity while behaving like hypocrites.
As an aside not directly related to the comic, but perhaps still of interest... As for whether anyone cares to revise the Bible, it's being done right now in several places in the world. Though of course not with the goal to change the message, but rather to make it clearer to readers as understanding of ancient languages and cultures have improved, while modern languages have evolved. One of those places is the country I live in, and one of the goals with the new translation is actually to make it more inclusive. However, that is as far as the original text allows, and where the original uses a specific type of pronoun, it will remain. The new translation will not auto-slap male pronouns where the original does not have them, though. This I see as a good change, and I don't think the majority of Christians here would be opposed to it either seeing as lots of various churches are involved in this process and have already given the okay for it to be done. Of course I can't speak for translations in other places that I know little about, but still. Things are changing.
Miragia - I appreciate you coming on this thread and giving your perspective as a Christian, as I'm sure it can't be an easy thing to read through so much content where the faith that brought you comfort has caused harm to others. I have huge respect for people who are willing to admit they were wrong and try to understand and grow from the experience (one of the reasons why I'm so disappointed in Minna tbh). Please continue to talk with us :) I've been a bit worried that the content of this thread as a whole might make our Christian Minnions feel unwelcome or defensive, but this forum is for them as well, and the many posts by Christians on this thread have given me a much better understanding of the message as they read it, and as Minna (possibly) intended, which is something I would have had difficulty with by myself.
Thank you, Gwenno! You're right that it's not an easy read. But I don't think it should be. The pain reading it causes me is nothing compared to the pain of the people writing, after all.
Warning, I'm about to speak of theology.
Spoiler: show
I'll admit I've had the urge to just drop all this a few times, but I'd attribute that more to being about 100% introvert than to my faith. But it wouldn't have been fair to leave when I got people hurt and was asked to stay rather than to go. Anyway, it makes me happy if I can contribute to other people understanding better, too. ^^
Post by: hollow on March 28, 2021, 04:18:28 PM
Contrasting her recent behaviour with her earlier writing, on the CoH blog for instance, I can't help but feel that she's ended up in a very dark place mentally, particularly since the pandemic really took hold.
Despite recognizing that there's a limit to speculation, I went off the deep end a bit in the post below.
Spoiler: show
Post by: SkyWhalePod on March 28, 2021, 04:40:25 PM
Sc0ut, I totally agree that Minna seems like the kind of person who thinks things through, and that the comic contains more than just an exploration of personal values -- there's definitely intentional criticism of political correctness in it as well. Adding two cents to two cents:
Spoiler: show
Post by: catbirds on March 28, 2021, 04:45:40 PM
So that conflict likely isn't something that Minna just made up out of the blue, and chances are she wasn't aiming a jab at inclusivity as a whole with it, but rather at those who speak of inclusivity while behaving like hypocrites.
Alright, I think this is a good possibility to consider. As we know now, though, it's hard to speculate accurately on exactly what the author knew or did not know, what was an accident or what was deliberate in a story. It's good to hear about the possibility that maybe she does not hate inclusive language and that this might be an actual thing going on in Christian social spheres. In the context you mentioned, it seems Christians are considering it to help themselves through navigating faith, which is different from another group exerting pressure for change in a religion.
As for changing it to be a more accurate translation, that's a more literary topic. If our understanding of ancient language has improved, then I think it makes sense to rethink the translation you have. Obviously, old versions have had a significant effect on the world, but people can choose to study the new one if it resonates with them? I'm curious as to how they plan on making it more inclusive, though. Is it more accurate to translate the bible more inclusively? Would it just be better for followers of Christianity to do so?
Sorry if some of the phrasing is different from what would be an acceptable way to talk about religion, I've had few chances to do so in the past.
Spoiler: on a more negative note, also warning for mention of racism • show
Quote from under spoiler, sorry-
COVID has been really hard on everyone. But as several people pointed out earlier, it seems like Minna has been very isolated for a very long time.
Spoiler: show
Post by: Kevin_Redcrow on March 28, 2021, 04:53:57 PM
Oh man. The sheer volume of amazing discussion in this thread is overwhelming. I really wanted to process it into a whole and find some conclusive balance, so last night I sat down to try to write a summary post condensing all of the big ideas into sort of a opinion-free cheat sheet for anybody who is also feeling overwhelmed. . . . Turns out there's just too much. :P
In keeping with recent practice, I'm putting my gratitude/long story below the spoiler cut:
Well spoken, Good Human!
A side note: I had the same experience with being overwhelmed (it was a mere 16 pages when I attempted my first post). My first 2 post attempts failed, which frustrated me because I poured my heart and soul into them. Then I found that the Quick Post option did what I wanted anyway.
Post by: SkyWhalePod on March 28, 2021, 05:07:21 PM
(This post brought to you by the Quick Post option :D )
Post by: SkyWhalePod on March 28, 2021, 06:18:17 PM
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/956736534 (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/956736534)
Her tone is less intolerant and self-abusive than the afterword of Lovely People comes across.
Re, punishing herself: "Don't worry, I don't exactly have a lack of self-confidence or any of those things. Low self-esteem is never an issue I have had."
Re, being a smug atheist when she was younger: "[Back then] I had no respect for anyone who had not arrived at the same conclusion as I had. That's the thing -- I, I'm not being like, oh, I was such a butthead because I didn't believe in God. That's not a choice you can make. If you don't believe, you don't believe. Like, for a while I really wanted to believe in something, it's just, you can't do it if you don't, well, [something sort of incoherent that might be "believe in that form of God"]. And I could not obviously force myself to do it, and I know nobody else can just conjure belief out of nothing."
I know that there are a number of issues that Lovely People raises beyond Minna's relationship with her faith and with people not of her faith, but if you've read my handful of posts today, you know I'm always looking for something human to connect to, to help me make sense of what's going on. So it sounds like at least the part about calling everybody sinners in the afterword isn't quite reflective of what Minna really believes.
Post by: Gwenno on March 28, 2021, 06:19:23 PM
Ah gosh, hollow just posted a comment sort of following the same line of thinking I'm edging around. I'm pretty sure a moderator warned us against speculating about somebody's mental state a little bit ago. Sorry, guys! I'm just trying to imagine myself in Minna's shoes. I don't want to see her turned into a dart board.
Thank you for being self-aware while posting :) Don't worry, I wouldn't consider what has been written so far as part of this discussion as harmful, and I understand that it isn't really possible for many to separate Minna and her thoughts and intentions from her work. Please be mindful, however, about making assumptions about Minna's mental health when discussing this topic. The discussion is okay so far, but I'm about to go to bed and just want to make sure that it continues to be thoughtful and without reverting to "armchair diagnoses" (Wave described the far better than I could)
Armchair diagnoses of mental illness and psychological issues in others, are deeply offensive and not acceptable. (In this context, 'crazy', 'narcissistic', 'manipulative', and the like) This is especially true in light of the spaces we maintain to enable people to talk about their own struggles with mental health and personal crises, in a supportive and non-judgemental environment.
Post by: pinkysaxton on March 28, 2021, 07:03:33 PM
*That makes even more interesting the point that Miragia just brought up, about Christians being open to pronoun modifications being made in certain revisions of the Bible. From what I understand, even within the Christian community there's debate about what counts as 'truly Christian' -- I know some of my loved ones struggle with that, and it seems like in this bunny comic, claims are being made about what does and doesn't count as being 'truly Christian'.
I remember struggling with this back in my Lutheran school (before my Methodist church started considering even allowing same-sex marriage by the pastor). We were taking our final for Confirmation class, and I had learned that being a true Christian meant a) accepting the Lord as your Saviour (and therefor believing in his existance), b) repenting your sins, and c) offering your life (and deeds) to him. This was made specifically about Jesus, but I understood from my grandmother's Unitarian church that leaving it open-ended allowed other groups of protestants to be included. I turned in the test, with that final question written. The teacher (a soon-to-be vicar in the church we were based at) handed it back after looking through it. He said my last answer was wrong.
Now, I had a Methodist church AND Tim LaHaye behind me. So I was confused. We went back-and-forth a bit, and eventually he handed me the paper of another student (who happened to be the Republican governor's daughter). Her answer was a) read your Bible every day, b) go to church every Sunday, and C) try to be a good person. At the time I was so surprised, that I told him maybe she was Catholic. (We had a VERY heavy-handed dose of Catholics suck at the school, in the actual curriculum.) I told him he could fail me if he wanted, but my answer was right. And I lost points on it.
My mom always said Christians argue about the little things, but I can see even in Minna's comment that she thought she was a Christian but really wasn't that she's been through this struggle herself. This has been a large issue surrounding Christianity. Does changing pronouns change the message? Does allowing women to be pastors change the gender roles God assigned? We can go around for days, as people have. That's what makes the echo chamber of sticking to your own fellowship so refreshing. You don't have anyone telling you how lost you are for trying to update or hold onto an old narritive.
Post by: Miragia on March 28, 2021, 07:08:32 PM
Alright, I think this is a good possibility to consider. As we know now, though, it's hard to speculate accurately on exactly what the author knew or did not know, what was an accident or what was deliberate in a story. It's good to hear about the possibility that maybe she does not hate inclusive language and that this might be an actual thing going on in Christian social spheres. In the context you mentioned, it seems Christians are considering it to help themselves through navigating faith, which is different from another group exerting pressure for change in a religion.
As for changing it to be a more accurate translation, that's a more literary topic. If our understanding of ancient language has improved, then I think it makes sense to rethink the translation you have. Obviously, old versions have had a significant effect on the world, but people can choose to study the new one if it resonates with them? I'm curious as to how they plan on making it more inclusive, though. Is it more accurate to translate the bible more inclusively? Would it just be better for followers of Christianity to do so?
Sorry if some of the phrasing is different from what would be an acceptable way to talk about religion, I've had few chances to do so in the past.Spoiler: on a more negative note, also warning for mention of racism • show
Yeah, of course I can't tell for sure what Minna's intent was or if the topic is being debated where she is or whether or not she ran into it somewhere else. But the possibility exists, and that's how I interpreted it reading the comic, anyhow.
As for whether it is more accurate to translate the Bible more inclusively, well, as far as past translations have just defaulted to male pronouns without reflecting over it, even when the original text did not specify gender, yes, it is more accurate to stick with the original, isn't it? As said though, where the original text does use a male pronoun, it will remain as such in the translation. Jesus is still a he, but some people in his parables might not necessarily be men, for example. Whether or not it's better, well, personally I think accuracy is a good thing, and chances are everyone behind the new translation does too. Of course some people are going to complain about it as with anything, but old versions will still exist for those who want to be traditional, and for young people it may be easier to understand what they're reading if the text isn't full of outdated words. And indeed, where ancient languages and cultures are concerned, I'd say understanding is better than ignorance. And no worries, I don't find anything you said to be upsetting. ^^
I wasn't around for any of those events, so I can't say anything about them. People being rude and dismissive like you describe is not okay though. I won't pass any judgement on Minna since I don't know enough, nor is it my place to judge anyone, but like you I hope that she will eventually find the words to heal what has been broken.
Shout out to Miragia, I'm super glad you're here. As somebody with a totally secular upbringing, it's helpful for me to see how people of certain faiths receive and understand their own text/language, compared to people like me who aren't of that faith. Really interesting point you brought up about multiple interpretations of inclusivity criticism. Thanks for continuing to stick with us and offer your perspective!
(This post brought to you by the Quick Post option :D )
Thank you, SkyWhalePod! I'm very happy that there are people here willing to see other perspectives. ^^
Post by: thorny on March 28, 2021, 08:24:50 PM
[ . . . ] While the Bible wasn't directly involved, this is a topic I have seen under debate there, some advocating that it is more inclusive to refer to God as female/insert-other-term, while others disagree. So that conflict likely isn't something that Minna just made up out of the blue, and chances are she wasn't aiming a jab at inclusivity as a whole with it, but rather at those who speak of inclusivity while behaving like hypocrites.
As an aside not directly related to the comic, but perhaps still of interest... As for whether anyone cares to revise the Bible, it's being done right now in several places in the world. Though of course not with the goal to change the message, but rather to make it clearer to readers as understanding of ancient languages and cultures have improved, while modern languages have evolved. One of those places is the country I live in, and one of the goals with the new translation is actually to make it more inclusive. However, that is as far as the original text allows, and where the original uses a specific type of pronoun, it will remain. The new translation will not auto-slap male pronouns where the original does not have them, though. This I see as a good change, and I don't think the majority of Christians here would be opposed to it either seeing as lots of various churches are involved in this process and have already given the okay for it to be done. [ . . . ]
That's interesting; thanks for bringing that into the discussion.
Minna in the comic depicts the language change as being imposed by the secular society, though. Plus which -- wherever she thinks it's coming from, she's clearly against it. I can see being against it while having no animus against such changes in secular use if the argument is that the original used the masculine; but I have some trouble imagining being against it even when there's clear evidence that it's a better translation, without having any such animus against the inclusivity in general.
Do you know what reasons are given by those objecting to the changes? (I'm not asking about arguing over whether the translation's actually better in a specific passage, I'm sure that's bound to happen; but about those objecting to the entire idea.)
I'll admit I've had the urge to just drop all this a few times, but I'd attribute that more to being about 100% introvert than to my faith. But it wouldn't have been fair to leave when I got people hurt and was asked to stay rather than to go. Anyway, it makes me happy if I can contribute to other people understanding better, too.
Please do stay if you've got the time; I think your perspective is valuable here.
Spoiler: on a more negative note, also warning for mention of racism • show
Maybe I should leave that spoiled and reply under a spoiler as well:
Spoiler: show
If anybody is interested in hearing Minna talk a little more about her perspective on her current faith, you should check out the Twitch stream she did last week -- it's going to expire in a week or so, just as a warning:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/956736534 (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/956736534)
Her tone is less intolerant and self-abusive than the afterword of Lovely People comes across.
Re, punishing herself: "Don't worry, I don't exactly have a lack of self-confidence or any of those things. Low self-esteem is never an issue I have had."
Re, being a smug atheist when she was younger: "[Back then] I had no respect for anyone who had not arrived at the same conclusion as I had. That's the thing -- I, I'm not being like, oh, I was such a butthead because I didn't believe in God. That's not a choice you can make. If you don't believe, you don't believe. Like, for a while I really wanted to believe in something, it's just, you can't do it if you don't, well, [something sort of incoherent that might be "believe in that form of God"]. And I could not obviously force myself to do it, and I know nobody else can just conjure belief out of nothing."
I know that there are a number of issues that Lovely People raises beyond Minna's relationship with her faith and with people not of her faith, but if you've read my handful of posts today, you know I'm always looking for something human to connect to, to help me make sense of what's going on. So it sounds like at least the part about calling everybody sinners in the afterword isn't quite reflective of what Minna really believes.
I'm not going to try to watch her videos; even if they'll play on this very slow connection.
But if she didn't believe it, why did she say it?
And why did she then refuse to engage with any of the people hurt by it, and in that refusal show "no respect for anyone who had not arrived at the same conclusion as I had"? I have trouble getting that to match with 'I didn't mean it that way!' You might still close the comments; but wouldn't you say 'I didn't mean it that way' first?
If she's doing all of this because she believes it -- I don't like that, but I've got sympathy for her. If she's doing it despite not believing it because -- what? why would you do that if you didn't believe it? just to stir things up, or to make more money from a different audience, or why? I can't think of any reason for doing this, other than believing it, that isn't much worse.
-- she might, I suppose, believe that only believers in her particular God will be saved from damnation, but that it's not possible to believe in God unless God decides to allow you to, and therefore that the damned just can't do anything about being damned. I think I may have run into that as a theology somewhere.
Post by: PyroDesu on March 28, 2021, 08:39:50 PM
I stand by the feeling that coming in with chapter and verse as you did was a bit insensitive, and I think you've realized that too, but I was insensitive as well in my response.
Frankly, I think your beliefs, as you've expressed them in more detail, fit well with how I was taught a Christian should act - I've mentioned it before, I was raised in a Methodist church (and they liked Matthew's gospel). Pinky summed it up fairly well, I think.
Nothing really to contribute to the conversation, just thought I should put this out there.
-- she might, I suppose, believe that only believers in her particular God will be saved from damnation, but that it's not possible to believe in God unless God decides to allow you to, and therefore that the damned just can't do anything about being damned. I think I may have run into that as a theology somewhere.
Calvinists, I think.
Post by: Speck on March 28, 2021, 09:17:16 PM
Fascinating to read everyone’s comments! I’m impressed with the thoughtfulness.
A note re: inclusive Bible translations, and why this might be an issue for Minna. Inclusive translations have been around for a very long time - see for example the New Revised Standard Version, where inclusivity for people is the major difference from the Revised Standard Version. But there are also inclusive for God translations, too - and those have been in development for quite some time. They already existed (albeit uncommon) when I was doing my seminary training in the ‘90s. (yes - I trained as a Lutheran pastor and served churches for a while). Being Lutheran, I also knew people in the Finnish Lutheran diaspora in Canada - and this was a hot topic and a culture war issue. There are a lot of varieties of Lutheran (indeed, of any denomination) and the conservatives hated that the more liberal folks actually cared about inclusivity. If there are any Finnish Lutherans in Finland around, I’d be curious on their take!
I’d also suggest that the “World Council” in the comic may be a reference to the World Council of Churches, which emphasizes ecumenism and has also been viscerally hated by conservatives. And yes, conservatives for quite some time have had all sorts of nasty speculations about the WCC being some form of apocalyptic end-times organization, mark of the beast, yadda yadda yadda.
Anyways, I’m grieving the harm done to this lovely community and the reopened wounds that this has had on so many readers. I’m grateful to the mods for this operating this forum!
Post by: thorny on March 28, 2021, 09:39:59 PM
I’d also suggest that the “World Council” in the comic may be a reference to the World Council of Churches
That is a possibility I never would have thought of! Thanks for bringing it to the thread.
Post by: Miragia on March 28, 2021, 10:12:47 PM
That's interesting; thanks for bringing that into the discussion.
Minna in the comic depicts the language change as being imposed by the secular society, though. Plus which -- wherever she thinks it's coming from, she's clearly against it. I can see being against it while having no animus against such changes in secular use if the argument is that the original used the masculine; but I have some trouble imagining being against it even when there's clear evidence that it's a better translation, without having any such animus against the inclusivity in general.
Do you know what reasons are given by those objecting to the changes? (I'm not asking about arguing over whether the translation's actually better in a specific passage, I'm sure that's bound to happen; but about those objecting to the entire idea.)
Um, maybe I'm a little confused about what you're asking here, but using anything but the masculine when referring to God is not done in the original text as far as I know, at least when it's the Father or Jesus. The Holy Spirit on the other hand is sometimes referred to as female. (Not first-hand experience though, since I can't read ancient Hebrew or Greek.)
As for what reasons are given, well, I had to do some digging since that debate happened nearly a year ago, and I wasn't paying more than casual attention back then. The only one that stuck with me is the one I already gave in an earlier post:
- Since God chose to use the male pronouns about himself, why is that not good enough for the people advocating inclusivity?
That aside though, some other reasons I'm finding digging through this are...
- God does not need more names.
- God as a mother is incomprehensible, and being incomprehensible will turn away more people than it attracts.
- Trying to adapt God to suit individual tastes is the same as building a new Tower of Babel.
- Changing how God is referred to creates a dangerous alternate image of God.
- The people advocating this also advocate ideas that go against the core message of Christianity.
- The moralizing tone and tendencies of these people and how they attack everyone who does not agree with their opinions is a problem.
- Bonking each other in the head with human-created ideological slegdehammers distracts from the main message.
Mind that since this was a debate on the opinions page of a news site, not nearly as many voices made themselves heard as on this forum, and it's possible that these reasons are just individual opinions rather than something many people would agree with (I have no idea).
While we're on the topic of the bible itself, I should apologize, @Miragia. I was too harsh when you came into the discussion. Perhaps I'm too accustomed to seeing people quote-mining the bible - and to be fair, it's a collection of works by many people, translated through several languages by again, many people, and thus in my opinion, fairly susceptible to such quote-mining. It galls me when people do that - it's not even my religion anymore, but sometimes it feels as if I do know their holy book better than them because of the way things get taken out of context and twisted. Perhaps I'm a little touchy about Matthew in particular, too.
I stand by the feeling that coming in with chapter and verse as you did was a bit insensitive, and I think you've realized that too, but I was insensitive as well in my response.
Frankly, I think your beliefs, as you've expressed them in more detail, fit well with how I was taught a Christian should act - I've mentioned it before, I was raised in a Methodist church (and they liked Matthew's gospel). Pinky summed it up fairly well, I think.
Nothing really to contribute to the conversation, just thought I should put this out there.
PyroDesu, it's alright, you were already forgiven. ^^ Thanks though, and sorry for being insensitive as well. I do understand what you mean, those people who thought I wasn't Christian enough sure liked to cherry pick Bible quotes and twist them to suit their point regardless of context. It does get annoying. After all, if you take a text out of its context you're left with a con.
Post by: Speck on March 28, 2021, 10:44:02 PM
Um, maybe I'm a little confused about what you're asking here, but using anything but the masculine when referring to God is not done in the original text as far as I know, at least when it's the Father or Jesus. The Holy Spirit on the other hand is sometimes referred to as female. (Not first-hand experience though, since I can't read ancient Hebrew or Greek.)
Pneuma in the greek is a feminine noun - but note that may not convey much (das Mädchen - the girl - is neuter in German). However there is a lot of feminine imagery for the divine in both the Older and Newer testaments. G_d is also plural, and without gender, and... there’s a lot more diversity than we often acknowledge.
And I’ve heard the same arguments as you, Miragia, against inclusivity.
Post by: moredhel on March 28, 2021, 10:49:45 PM
- Changing how God is referred to creates a dangerous alternate image of God.Are you sure about that? Does this not fit in the general tendency of growing abstraction of god? What I want to say, a long Time ago, people used Gods name what they don't do much now they say just god or our father. There are rules against making pictures of god. Most christians do not follow this rule and there are clever artguments for doing so but it is in the book and jews and muslims do so. Before was a rule against it the people would have made pictures of god. So over time no pictures no name, god became more and more abstract. So if the idea of god is male is given up it would fit in this tendency. So it would not create a new image but would make the image of god more abstract.
I have had a talk about this topic with someone (if relevant a muslim) who had a clever explanation for this tendency. He said humans are not able to completely understand god. So for a start people thought of god like a human nur much more powerful. But the millenia of study and clever people thinking about it and some hints by the prophets, led to a still incomplete, but better understanding of god. So we do no longer need a picture or a name.
Post by: Tarnagh on March 28, 2021, 10:56:01 PM
1. Um, maybe I'm a little confused about what you're asking here, but using anything but the masculine when referring to God is not done in the original text as far as I know1. One of the first Names of God used in the Old Testament translates as "Elohim," and is the masculine plural form of the singular female "Eloha." It's been a VERY long time since I studied these things, but there's some evidence in the original texts to indicate that at some point prior to the time these things were written and codified the Hebrew deity was likely female. I know this is anecdotal and I'm not about to "Source: Dude, Trust Me" on this, so please do feel free to take that information with a grain of salt if you like. I do remember that being a thing though. Unfortunately, it's been more than 30 years since I had access to the original study books and can't for the life of me remember the names of them now.
<snipped for brevity>
2. After all, if you take a text out of its context you're left with a con.
2. I absolutely LOVE that! <3 I've never heard that before but it's so incredibly true!
Post by: Miragia on March 28, 2021, 11:03:55 PM
Are you sure about that?
If you're asking me, that one's not an opinion of mine. I was just digging up arguments that were used by people in an old debate, as requested.
Post by: Róisín on March 28, 2021, 11:55:25 PM
And the bible has been repeatedly not just translated but has had its contents revised/updated/ edited to fit with current politics a number of times. Consider the various committees that have worked on these changes. You might find the deliberations of the various Councils of Nicaea interesting. The Synod of Whitby was especially nasty, involving as it did a lot of financial and political skulduggery to ensure the outcomes. And the systematic destruction of the Celtic Christian church by a series of popes.
I don’t want to even start on such subjects as the French Crusade, in which another pope instigated a full-on military Crusade such as had been rolled out in the ‘Holy Land’, across France and adjoining territory against a marginally different flavour of Catholics. Or the pernicious doctrine of ‘Terra Nullius’. All of these acts and more were justified citing versions of the bible edited to justify such acts for advantage, land and profit. Look it up if you are curious, perhaps?
Anyway, I have to go and get some work done. I will look in later.
Post by: tzelly on March 29, 2021, 12:22:16 AM
Um, maybe I'm a little confused about what you're asking here, but using anything but the masculine when referring to God is not done in the original text as far as I know, at least when it's the Father or Jesus. The Holy Spirit on the other hand is sometimes referred to as female. (Not first-hand experience though, since I can't read ancient Hebrew or Greek.)
As for what reasons are given, well, I had to do some digging since that debate happened nearly a year ago, and I wasn't paying more than casual attention back then. The only one that stuck with me is the one I already gave in an earlier post:
- Since God chose to use the male pronouns about himself, why is that not good enough for the people advocating inclusivity?
That aside though, some other reasons I'm finding digging through this are...
- God does not need more names.
- God as a mother is incomprehensible, and being incomprehensible will turn away more people than it attracts.
- Trying to adapt God to suit individual tastes is the same as building a new Tower of Babel.
- Changing how God is referred to creates a dangerous alternate image of God.
- The people advocating this also advocate ideas that go against the core message of Christianity.
- The moralizing tone and tendencies of these people and how they attack everyone who does not agree with their opinions is a problem.
- Bonking each other in the head with human-created ideological slegdehammers distracts from the main message.
Oh, I can answer some of this from the perspective of a former Jew that used to know modern Hebrew.
This is all I know on the subject from how it was presented to me so I could be wrong on some details.
Spoiler: show
Post by: wavewright62 on March 29, 2021, 01:59:23 AM
(https://40.media.tumblr.com/26116e163d0adc6689b7fe071abcf6ed/tumblr_inline_nqyojcGVzL1r2g2kx_540.png)
Thank you all for taking our continued conversation to heart.
(https://41.media.tumblr.com/b621a2a1c4da7edb976691b287250138/tumblr_inline_nq7nu15q1z1r2g2kx_540.png)
Post by: Pessi on March 29, 2021, 06:49:45 AM
Being Lutheran, I also knew people in the Finnish Lutheran diaspora in Canada - and this was a hot topic and a culture war issue. There are a lot of varieties of Lutheran (indeed, of any denomination) and the conservatives hated that the more liberal folks actually cared about inclusivity. If there are any Finnish Lutherans in Finland around, I’d be curious on their take!
In Finnish language there are no separate pronouns for "she" and "he", we only have the neutral "hän" which is used for everyone. I've not heard of any new translation centering on inclusivity, but I know every new translation that gets made in collaboration with the Finnish Lutheran church aims at being both as correct and faithful to the original text and as easy to understand as possible. There will anyway probably always be great controversy when a so called holy text is altered. I remember being against our current version of the Bible myself when it was formalized in the 90's simply because I was so used to the "old world" vibes of the previous one with all it's squiggly, poetic 30's language. The new one with it's plain and everyday language felt like all magic had faded away.
Since I've long ago ceased to be an actual believer (though I still retain my membership in the congregation to be able to vote for the "Come All" movement in every Parish election) I've not followed this field much, but it seems we got a new translation of the New Testament just last autumn. The main difference of "UT2020" compared with the older translations is that it has been made exclusively for mobile platforms, the length of the sentences and the general structure of the language designed so that the text is easy to read from a small screen. It won't be circulated in printed form at all, and it also isn't meant to replace the 1992 translation but to act as it's companion.
Post by: Umbral Reaver on March 29, 2021, 07:38:49 AM
I personally have a traumatic history with the very same kind of Christianity espoused in this comic, particularly on the topic of gender.
Post by: Miragia on March 29, 2021, 09:05:34 AM
- Since God chose to use the male pronouns about himself, why is that not good enough for the people advocating inclusivity?
- God does not need more names.
- God as a mother is incomprehensible, and being incomprehensible will turn away more people than it attracts.
- Trying to adapt God to suit individual tastes is the same as building a new Tower of Babel.
- Changing how God is referred to creates a dangerous alternate image of God.
- The people advocating this also advocate ideas that go against the core message of Christianity.
- The moralizing tone and tendencies of these people and how they attack everyone who does not agree with their opinions is a problem.
- Bonking each other in the head with human-created ideological slegdehammers distracts from the main message.
...To be clear, here are my personal views on those reasons, since I'd rather not people assume I stand behind all of that.
- Jesus chose to use "Father". If the male pronouns are good enough for God, then it's good enough for me.
- That God does not need more names is kind of silly? Sure, he does not need them. Humans are the ones who do. So let humans use whichever name they feel is most respectful.
- No, it's not incomprehensible. Bad excuse.
- Adapting God to suit individual tastes... Well, I don't think that's a good thing in as far as it's the wishful thinking of humans, since it is incredibly easy to fool oneself in that way. But God doesn't teach everyone in the same way, so he's actually adapting himself to reach individuals, too. The goal remains the same though, and he has said that one day he will explain himself clearly, so I think it's best to retain some open-mindedness for that day.
- As many people have already pointed out, God already has thousands of names. Goes to show how difficult it is to describe him, but who was it that tasked humans to name things, again...?
- I am not for abandoning Jesus or the core message in any way or form regardless of what God is called.
- Any group that grows huge enough is bound to have some less civil people. That goes for Christians, atheists, feminists, sport fans, insert-other-group, and yes, it even applies to the groups that feel hurt by Christianity. Like many have already said, the tone maintained in this place is impressive. It would not be impressive if it was like this everywhere, though.
- Bonking each other on the head is a distracting thing, yes.
Putting the reasons I don't agree with myself up here may nonetheless have been a little unfair of me, since there may be no one here to defend or explain those views. Please keep that in mind.
Pneuma in the greek is a feminine noun - but note that may not convey much (das Mädchen - the girl - is neuter in German). However there is a lot of feminine imagery for the divine in both the Older and Newer testaments. G_d is also plural, and without gender, and... there’s a lot more diversity than we often acknowledge.
And I’ve heard the same arguments as you, Miragia, against inclusivity.
1. One of the first Names of God used in the Old Testament translates as "Elohim," and is the masculine plural form of the singular female "Eloha." It's been a VERY long time since I studied these things, but there's some evidence in the original texts to indicate that at some point prior to the time these things were written and codified the Hebrew deity was likely female. I know this is anecdotal and I'm not about to "Source: Dude, Trust Me" on this, so please do feel free to take that information with a grain of salt if you like. I do remember that being a thing though. Unfortunately, it's been more than 30 years since I had access to the original study books and can't for the life of me remember the names of them now.
Oh, I can answer some of this from the perspective of a former Jew that used to know modern Hebrew.
This is all I know on the subject from how it was presented to me so I could be wrong on some details.Spoiler: show
Thank you for your interesting knowledge and perspectives, Speck, Tarnagh and tzelly. ^^ I'm not going to speculate too much about things I have no education in, though personally I don't think God is either male or female. He's just playing by our rules and referring to himself as male since humans tend to think in those terms, and making clear to us whether he's male or female or both or neither really isn't a priority to him when we're living on borrowed time.
Spoiler: show
Post by: thorny on March 29, 2021, 09:43:22 AM
1. One of the first Names of God used in the Old Testament translates as "Elohim," and is the masculine plural form of the singular female "Eloha." It's been a VERY long time since I studied these things, but there's some evidence in the original texts to indicate that at some point prior to the time these things were written and codified the Hebrew deity was likely female.
Or was both female and male, possibly in two persons; with Elohim being the plural used for both together.
There's also apparently an instance in which Moses addresses God using a female pronoun; and there may be other cases. I don't myself have any Hebrew, or Greek, or Aramaic, or anything else relevant; and can't really speak further to this.
And I really don't understand the Christian trinity. But if they're all actually one God and not three, then if one of them is considered female, wouldn't that have to mean that God is both male and female? Or, possibly, neither or something else altogether; but using human languages with dualistic pronouns because that's what was around at the time.
-- Miragia, for what it's worth, I took your answer to me as paraphrasing others' opinions (as I'd asked for), not as being your own opinions. And again, thanks for answering.
Post by: Superdark33 on March 29, 2021, 09:46:27 AM
Alright, I think this is a good possibility to consider. As we know now, though, it's hard to speculate accurately on exactly what the author knew or did not know, what was an accident or what was deliberate in a story. It's good to hear about the possibility that maybe she does not hate inclusive language and that this might be an actual thing going on in Christian social spheres. In the context you mentioned, it seems Christians are considering it to help themselves through navigating faith, which is different from another group exerting pressure for change in a religion.
Im sorry but i cabt be this charitable.
It is an extremely common tactic for demonization of inclusion/progress to say "i dont refer to the actual inclusive language or people affected, im refering to the bad hypocrites who are bad and hypocrite", people who do exist in tiny quantities (and are even platformed and empowered by the same people who hate progress or inclusivity but thats another topic).
Then they proceed to paint literally ANYONE who speaks out with the brush of "bad hypocrite" no matter what, any singke attempt at inclusivity is being scrutinized as one of The Bad Ones and then whatever new name they invent for The Bad Ones this time stops being a veil to hide behind and starts being a slur to cudgel at people.
I dont give people who deny my humanity the benefit of the doubt.
Post by: catbirds on March 29, 2021, 11:21:04 AM
I dont give people who deny my humanity the benefit of the doubt.
Unfortunately that is also the conclusion I reached at the end of my post. There were way too many people who fit in the category you described defending her actions in her twitch chat last Saturday by saying people should not have been so "offended." And many of these people have been hanging around in the chat for years, from what I remember.
I did go back and check out what happened in the "Emil incident" and I found, to my dismay, quite a few people who defended the use of the slur. I guess others may have given her the benefit of the doubt way back when, but had I been around to see it unfold, the amount of red flags that I saw would have been enough to make me run for the hills. It felt like what you'd described was already under development by then, and the bunny comic felt like what you described in the second paragraph.
Spoiler: show
Post by: Speck on March 29, 2021, 11:40:18 AM
And I really don't understand the Christian trinity. But if they're all actually one God and not three, then if one of them is considered female, wouldn't that have to mean that God is both male and female? Or, possibly, neither or something else altogether; but using human languages with dualistic pronouns because that's what was around at the time.
Spoiler: show
Post by: thorny on March 29, 2021, 12:33:30 PM
[spoiler]theology stuff
In response to concern about whether people who've had to deal with toxic versions might not want a Christian theology debate here: Yes -- maybe this is also a bit of a hijack, as the discussion's in danger of moving away from perspectives on what Minna may have meant. So although I've been contributing to it I'll try to stop doing that here.
Post by: celsient on March 29, 2021, 05:03:04 PM
i agree with so many of the points brought up here but a detail i want to talk further about is the whole "father/mother/universe" thing. while a lot of Lovely People was very weird and a little gross for me, this pushed it further into the abyss. i've seen a little bit of talk about it but i think i have some more to bring to the table.
i'm a nonbinary person living in a country where transphobia is rampant and acknowledgement of trans (particularly nonbinary) people is delivered in snark on genitalia, the "number of genders", or similar topics. "father/mother/universe" seems like exactly that kind of snark; the same kind of comedy (dare i call it such a thing) that birthed the "attack helicopter" jokes of yesteryear. "man/woman/attack helicopter/train/pikachu", you know it.
it creates a ridiculous strawman of what "those kooky transes" want, assembled for the purpose of tearing apart and "proving us wrong". they present these "new genders" as something to include in a similar way to how man/woman have been included in modern western history instead of abolising the gendered nature of things and using an all-inclusive term.
(for me personally, i find gender categories as a whole rather silly and prefer to think about my gender as purely an individual identity thing, no one else having the same gender as me; though i understand that for many gender categories are important and that's fine too. it's all a matter of individual preference as long as you're not hurting anyone)
blaming it all on "social justice" and "political correctness" is exactly the kind of defense transphobes pull up whenever they spout transphobic rubbish. they're not transphobes, they're simply protecting everyone from these ridiculous ideas implimented into society by a grand authoritarian power; a world council, if you will.
while i'm certainly not saying minna is transphobic (at least not intentionally), through "father/mother/universe" she's perpetuating the same strawman arguments that transphobes do. she can turn to christ as much as she likes and that's completely acceptable, but you shouldn't just give up on being nice to people in our current realm of existence because of the promise of salvation afterwards.
Post by: esedege on March 29, 2021, 08:30:37 PM
I’ve been reading this thread since its inception, even before I read Lovely People (I was out for a week and came back in time for p412).
I’d like to add my point of view about the whole ordeal, as a Spaniard who’s grown up in a somewhat rural environment, where Catholicism is the root for lots of social norms.
Details about my relation with that religion in the spoiler below. TL;DR As a gay man living in Spain, I’m very wary of anything that, as the “summary” for Lovely People, mentions religion without any apparent need to do so.
Spoiler: show
In short, Lovely People felt tiresome and intellectually insulting for me.
I knew what was awaiting me when I picked it up. Maybe it’s because I’ve grown accustomed to peer pressure into believing in god where I live, but Minna’s afterword wouldn’t be out of place here where I live: people who use their god as a shield and a weapon at the same time.
Lovely People presents a false dichotomy in such a bland way that it not only falls flat but also detracts from what could have been a positive message about religion. Religion as a strength, as a safety net, as a community of peers an likeminded individuals eager to help each other during hard times. (I don’t think religion is needed for that as much as basic civic responsibility, but I respect those who disagree.)
Instead, what we get is half-baked, where religious people don’t care about non followers, eager to throw technology away as if it was inherently evil (Does Minna know that whatever money she’s got from her work has come directly or indirectly through tech?) and served through a crude bait-and-switch, as some of you have already stated.
Her reaction to the backlash makes me think that she was perfectly aware of the pain she was gonna inflict. As days pass, I’ve gone from “I’ll keep reading SSSS until she finishes it unless it all goes south” to “I don’t think she’s gonna continue it after this break, unless she wants more money from us who she disrespects” to “I’m starting to feel as trapped as I felt at the end of that toxic relationship I’m not sure I’ve completely healed from.” So right now I’m not sure if I want to keep reading, feeling that both characters and I are her hostages and she seems fond of it.
Oh, and BTW, the dismissive tone she uses to explain the abandonment of CoH is also quite gratuitous.
Quote
I've decided to stop wasting my time playing videogames, and the same goes for making them.
For me that sentence’s structure makes it all inconsiderate even when I take into account that Spanish is quite more frank and direct than English, so we usually sound brassy, harsh and even ill-mannered when speaking through direct translation, and I am ready to accept it also happened here. There’s intention in it.
i agree with so many of the points brought up here but a detail i want to talk further about is the whole "father/mother/universe" thing. […]
i'm a nonbinary person living in a country where transphobia is rampant and acknowledgement of trans (particularly nonbinary) people is delivered in snark on genitalia, the "number of genders", or similar topics. "father/mother/universe" seems like exactly that kind of snark; the same kind of comedy (dare i call it such a thing) that birthed the "attack helicopter" jokes of yesteryear. "man/woman/attack helicopter/train/pikachu", you know it.
I feel you, but I think this was intended more as a jab at those religions that consider the Universe as a divine force itself (religion is not a theme I’m versed in, so I won’t say any example)
Post by: Pessi on March 30, 2021, 02:30:53 AM
I feel you, but I think this was intended more as a jab at those religions that consider the Universe as a divine force itself (religion is not a theme I’m versed in, so I won’t say any example)
I thought this too, but then again I'm a straight cis woman so as hard as I try I'm probably very much tone deaf when it comes to jabs at trans people. Whether or not Minna meant it as such it obviously reads as such by many people who have already been hurt by that kind of thing way too many times.
The thought of a "world soul", anima mundi or psychè kósmou or whatever it has been called in different cultures, is older than Christianity. It's come up again and again in different religions and philosophies through ages. I for one find the thought of a spiritual connection between all living things and the planet they inhabit, a vital force connecting everything, more logical than any petty parochial religion claiming that only those who adhere to it's dogma can attain a connection to a god. But I can see how the rather indeterminate thought of an anima mundi can be appalling for someone who wants clear rules from their religion, and by her posts Minna is at the moment in a state where clear rules and strict guidelines to salvation are a priority.
Spoiler: Theological content • show
Post by: JoB on March 30, 2021, 02:44:54 AM
(*) Read, when I keep the page open and click on any "new reply/replies" markers popping up, I see entire branches of the Disqussion collapse away, more often than not taking the exact comment(s) I wanted to read with it. Just happens (for me?) whenever the comments section goes noticeably beyond its usual size. Makes me wonder how fractured the communication must be on those websites where current pages garner tens of thousands of comments ...
But I can see how the rather indeterminate thought of an anima mundi can be appalling for someone who wants clear rules from their religionIf we're talking about a single "world soul", i.e., pantheism, that should actually further the clarity of the rulings, as there's only a single (and hopefully coherent) source for them - same basic setting as in modern monotheistic religions, in a sense. Now animism, OTOH, where there's a different ruler with own rules (and grudges) just a couple steps away ...
Post by: Sc0ut on March 30, 2021, 02:51:19 AM
Spoiler: offtopic theology • show
Post by: catbirds on March 30, 2021, 03:01:20 AM
I feel you, but I think this was intended more as a jab at those religions that consider the Universe as a divine force itself (religion is not a theme I’m versed in, so I won’t say any example)
Hello another new person, esedege! It's still good to hear people sharing their personal experiences, and my condolences that the bunny comic had that effect on Yet Another Person :(
Anyway, even if this were a jab at other religions (keyword: jab), that's just another reason people should be offended by p. 39, so it's a bit of a dead end no matter which interpretation you choose. To me, it reads as making fun of people who have a slightly different view on gender. To you, it reads as making fun of people who have a slightly (or drastically) different view on faith. Neither of these is better than the other because at the end of the day, it's made fun of some group of people at their expense. And I feel like that's what I've run into with interpreting the rest of the comic, that no matter how generous an interpretation I give, all the logic about why the world she made is the bad one we should avoid ends up either falling apart because it misses the point, or being flat-out discriminatory (or at the very least ignorant) to people actually struggling for their right to identify as who they are.
Post by: wavewright62 on March 30, 2021, 04:09:34 AM
One of my most significant concerns is that with the derisive dig at gender inclusivity in the Bible in her comic, what she thinks of people in real life that do not abide by gender norms. :(
One of the things that made so many people fall in love with these SSSS characters was that they do not conform to the gender norms. Most newbies misgender them, in fact. Sigrun is the military leader (as are both her parents, and her great-grandma was a crack shot with a rifle), Mikkel does the household chores, Tuuri was the mechanic as well as the scholar. The men of Reynir's line are bestowed with a gift usually only for women. The Swedish military guards on the dangerous train run are of mixed gender, as are the Sentinels of Saimaa in Finland. The Icelandic sea captain had a suspiciously good-looking male crew, all wearing the product of her busy knitting needles.
Their body types were also atypical - rangy Sigrun (the fandom went bananas the first time anyone could see that she even *had* boobs, about 5 chapters in), *ahem* solid Mikkel, androgynous Reynir, short Emil and his magical long pageboy, tiny 'twig' Lalli, even shorter dumpling Tuuri with cropped hair, round-faced Onni (although now more gaunt, allowing the cheekbones to show through).
Their sexuality is generally unknown. These pages give very little canon clue about that, and Minna has stated that it's a comic about friendship. She has also stated that she's not fussed about fans' ships of her character, we're free to imagine what we like. (And we do, if the tags in AO3 and other media are any clue.) Similarly, none of her characters seem to have a sense of themselves outside the binary; that's been for the fandom to bestow on them. (See above)
I think that it's less about inclusivity and more about her own preferences. She "had an idea for the character that became Sigrun" - and all the concept art shows her looking competent and androgynous. A keen consumer of video games and various comics in her younger days, the fact that her heroines are not busty or flirtatious nor her heroes muscular and posing has got to be deliberate.
Or at least, it was. The extra art of a feminine-looking Sigrun sitting in her flowery sundress eating ice cream alongside Mikkel, while the Reynir and Emil played beach soccer was a nice change, but I can see it as a harbinger of the more feminine Sigrun of Adv. 2. The City of Hunger characterisations may also have been a tip-off - Onni had pretty darn buffed arms for a blimmin' cyborg, and Reynir cut his hair short. (At least Emil wasn't taller.)
Evolving the characters further *toward* a more heteronormative design is as good a clue as we're probably going to get about her changing attitudes.
Post by: Pessi on March 30, 2021, 05:33:27 AM
If we're talking about a single "world soul", i.e., pantheism, that should actually further the clarity of the rulings, as there's only a single (and hopefully coherent) source for them - same basic setting as in modern monotheistic religions, in a sense.
The idea of anima mundi is not that there is some kind of one great consciousness outside ourselves that controls the world and can give us rules about how to live and how to get in contact with it. The idea is rather that the anima mundi is made of us all, that the connections between all living things on this planet form it's "soul". I got first acquainted with this idea in one of it's forms when we were going through Hinduism in secondary school and came to the idea of brahman and atman, but this has been a recurring theme around the world throughout ages. Nowadays this kind of thinking is often applied to the whole universe. It's however difficult to build clear rules for a religion when the "great transcendental being" comprises everyone and everything around you. Therefore this kind of thinking hardly pleases anyone who wants the security of clear rules.
Post by: JoB on March 30, 2021, 06:38:18 AM
Spoiler: offtopic theology • show
Spoiler: but ... • show
It's however difficult to build clear rules for a religion when the "great transcendental being" comprises everyone and everything around you... including all their individual opinions, you mean, since those have to somehow enter and find representation in the thoughts of the overall entity? I'm tempted to point at my aside about "hopefully coherent" here ... :3
Post by: esedege on March 30, 2021, 06:54:40 AM
I thought this too, but then again I'm a straight cis woman so as hard as I try I'm probably very much tone deaf when it comes to jabs at trans people. Whether or not Minna meant it as such it obviously reads as such by many people who have already been hurt by that kind of thing way too many times.
As Pessi says, catbirds, this is also a possibility I have to consider, and it could even that Minna covered both aspects at the same time intentionally. I said that because of the 'father/mother' part, and would have agreed with you in a heartbeat if 'man/woman' were used, but I won't argue about it.
Looks to me like the discussion in the comments of page 409 has died down by now, if only for technical reasons(*). Or is that just my browser (fiery vulpine riding a penguin) acting up?
For me (a compass in a Californian coastal region :'D ) it's gone from 2219 to 2240 comments during my sleep, if I'm not mistaken. I haven't tried to expand it tho, as it's gone to the wrong places (i.e., zealot atheists vs zealot believers, personal attacks…).
Their sexuality is generally unknown. These pages give very little canon clue about that, and Minna has stated that it's a comic about friendship. She has also stated that she's not fussed about fans' ships of her character, we're free to imagine what we like. (And we do, if the tags in AO3 and other media are any clue.) Similarly, none of her characters seem to have a sense of themselves outside the binary; that's been for the fandom to bestow on them. (See above)
I agree we tend to project our preferences upon the characters we read about and learn to care, primarily to flesh them out and make us feel they are akin to us; the contrary happens for those characters we despise, as we probably don't want to have anything to do with them. But those are her characters, and SSSS is her story, so she's free to kill them all first thing in the new chapter by an extraterrestrial UFO if so she desires, and end SSSS there and then. But then her work would lack consistency and narrative intention and roundness.
That's in fact what happens in LP. There, as someone (edit: it was Rowan) stated here pages ago, we're informed the Bible is important, but we're never told why.
* What is the point of reading the bible? Why is it important to any of them? How does it inform their behavior or actions? I'm not seeing a connection between the reading and the importance.
You could swap it for The Little Prince, or a massively played video game, or any other thing capable of being tampered with at a distance. But she relegates the Bible so much it is in fact what's called a McGuffin, a simple kicker for the plot to happen. That's why I say it all falls flat. She could have shown us what she sees as its intrinsic value, and make it work with to the rest of the plot. However, by making it a McGuffin, it stands out as something worth defending by the Christian bunny, but without values attached for us to adhere/consider. So we flesh that Bible out with whatever we associate it with. And there are lots of people that, like me, do not have any positive value to link to it.
She presents Christianity as persecuted, which is not new for me (+1 in tiresomeness) and a blatant lie where I live (read if you so wish the spoiler in my previous post reply). I'm not saying it's not persecuted anywhere in the world because we as a species can be utterly pieces of bull… droppings, and I'm not all-knowing. But there's nothing about that where she lives nor where I do nor in the main places the language LP is written in is used, so if she wanted to make a point about China (as some defenders claim) she should have make it clear –with a couple of signals in Chinese at the starting splash page I could have taken all that differently–. But then there's the afterword, linking it to some obscure almighty group of people that want to shepherd us, starting with that vaccine pass. And she's oblivious to the irony this last sentence can be applied by many to the Bible she's defending, even more so, as I said above, because she left the Bible 'impersonation' completely hollow for us to fill.
It has been also said here this change she's shown us has been brewing for a long time, and I agree, but I wasn't able to recognise it in time. I distinctly remember that the line about illegal refugees arriving to Spain (A1, p14) being the spark for the rash didn't set well with me*. How can you be an 'illegal' refugee? You can either cross the border illegally (which makes you an illegal immigrant) or ask for refuge in another country (which makes you a 'legal' refugee), at least in Spanish terminology. So I decided she may just have been unfortunate with her English wording and kept on, ignoring that flag. I haven't discovered the comic by the time the Emil incident happened, and I surely don't want to dig around now what she thinks of BLM.
* And it carries with it a lot of narrative problems we have to overlook for it to work. Being more virulent in hot climates, shouldn't the rash have ravaged at least the equatorial part of Africa? No in-universe word on that, nor about any other place in the world? So Spain is the door for doom to enter Europe, which is an isolate region apart from that, via 'illegal refugees?' (This is not a complaint for what's presented as much as it is a complaint about how it's presented.)
Moving forward, if she continues with SSSS (I wouldn't be surprised if otherwise), it's stated to be on April the 19th. I wonder what her gain is with all this:
- LP is not for sale as of today, nor is any LP merchandise.
- Next chapter is kinda far away in the future by Internet standards, so I don't think most of her new *Ahem* fanbase is gonna be around by then. It could have stayed if the backlash was still ongoing, but it has kinda died out. I don't think there's been enough 'damsel-in-distress' time for her to capitalise on it in the long term.
- There are long-time followers that have probably abandoned SSSS and Minna's work altogether, and some of us are doubting if it isn't the only correct way for us to proceed.
Edited to add credit to Rowan.
Post by: Tarnagh on March 30, 2021, 07:28:41 AM
With tongue firmly in cheek, I would like to direct you to the Star Wars movies. ;)Spoiler: but ... • show
Post by: thorny on March 30, 2021, 11:14:43 AM
One of the things that made so many people fall in love with these SSSS characters was that they do not conform to the gender norms. Most newbies misgender them, in fact. Sigrun is the military leader (as are both her parents, and her great-grandma was a crack shot with a rifle), Mikkel does the household chores, Tuuri was the mechanic as well as the scholar. The men of Reynir's line are bestowed with a gift usually only for women. The Swedish military guards on the dangerous train run are of mixed gender, as are the Sentinels of Saimaa in Finland. The Icelandic sea captain had a suspiciously good-looking male crew, all wearing the product of her busy knitting needles.
Their body types were also atypical - rangy Sigrun (the fandom went bananas the first time anyone could see that she even *had* boobs, about 5 chapters in), *ahem* solid Mikkel, androgynous Reynir, short Emil and his magical long pageboy, tiny 'twig' Lalli, even shorter dumpling Tuuri with cropped hair, round-faced Onni (although now more gaunt, allowing the cheekbones to show through).
Their sexuality is generally unknown. These pages give very little canon clue about that, and Minna has stated that it's a comic about friendship.
[ . . . ] the fact that her heroines are not busty or flirtatious nor her heroes muscular and posing
[jumps up and down shouting Yes! Yes! Yes!]
What brought me into this comic in the first place, and is to a large extent what's kept me here (well, besides the Cats) is this depiction of a group of people of at least two genders working and travelling together on a project with no sign whatsoever either that their genders matter, or that they or anyone else in the society thinks this is at all unusual.
That is how much of my life has actually worked -- with the exception of that last bit; I'm always aware of the ways in which this actual society thinks that is Weird.
And then in addition, none of the characters are drawn with those stereotypically and exaggerated Very Male and Very Female bodies that almost all other comics choose. (I mean, I love Girl Genius, and to a large extent they meet that first test, but the bodies ay yi yi! They lampshade it some, but nevertheless.) Minna's human characters are, or at least have been, drawn shaped the way people are actually shaped.
If she's converted to something that goes in for rigid gender roles, my guess is that most of this is going to go away in her future work. If the something is also prudish, characters probably won't become drawn in sexualized fashion; but they may well be both drawn and plotted so that their gender Matters. And it was so nice to read something in which it doesn't.
But those are her characters, and SSSS is her story, so she's free to kill them all first thing in the new chapter by an extraterrestrial UFO if so she desires, and end SSSS there and then. But then her work would lack consistency and narrative intention and roundness.
Exactly true. She's free to do that, both in practice as being in control of the story, and in morals as being the creator of the story. But it would be terrible artistry.
Just as she's free to turn all her female characters into Homemakers and all her male characters into Heads of Household if she wants. But that's not going to produce anything that I'm going to want to read. (Yes, I'm aware that there are some who prefer to read that sort of thing.)
in LP. There, as someone (edit: it was Rowan) stated here pages ago, we're informed the Bible is important, but we're never told why.
[ . . . ] She could have shown us what she sees as its intrinsic value, and make it work with to the rest of the plot. However, by making it a McGuffin, it stands out as something worth defending by the Christian bunny, but without values attached for us to adhere/consider. So we flesh that Bible out with whatever we associate it with.
Maybe it's my own associations coming in, but I think she tells us pretty clearly what the value attached to it is that she wants us to consider. It's 'there is only One True Way and anybody who doesn't take it is Doomed'.
(I don't think that's anywhere near the only message that can be taken from the Bible, and I know that not everyone who follows the Bible even finds that message in it. But it appears to be the message that Minna has taken.)
I distinctly remember that the line about illegal refugees arriving to Spain (A1, p14) being the spark for the rash didn't set well with me
I managed to gloss over that one partly because it was one throwaway line, and partly because as that was shown as part of people's massive confusion in those last couple of weeks of the old world, it wasn't even clear to me whether that was what was actually supposed to have happened, or whether she was depicting people who had no idea what was going on some of whom were blaming it on refugees without evidence.
I was more bothered by the racist-joke incident (seems a bit unfair to blame it on Emil, who himself would only have been horrendously but justifiably ignorant); but I was hoping that that was just ignorance on Minna's part combined with easily hurt feelings possibly due at least in part to her being a fairly young person who might not have been hit with that sort of pushback before. It's becoming clearer and clearer that instead of thinking it over given time and opening up she's just doubling down harder into insularity.
Post by: JoB on March 30, 2021, 12:15:58 PM
(Edit: Ayup, it's absent in another browser tab I have still open, though the text-only title had already been replaced with the dark-blue title image there.)
Post by: catbirds on March 30, 2021, 12:22:52 PM
If she's converted to something that goes in for rigid gender roles, my guess is that most of this is going to go away in her future work. If the something is also prudish, characters probably won't become drawn in sexualized fashion; but they may well be both drawn and plotted so that their gender Matters. And it was so nice to read something in which it doesn't.
What's worth pointing out, I think, is that the three main characters of the bunny comic are pretty much parodies of current stereotypes for women. The overly bubbly internet influencer, the "christian homemaker," and I guess the elementary school teacher (in my time in elementary school, I only knew of three permanent male teachers) all fit into those pesky gender roles. Their families (except the influencer) all have a similarly traditional structure, and it seemed like escaping society was partially for the purpose of maintaining those roles as a mother/wife, to maintain the family structure they had. At least for the Christian homemaker and the elementary school teacher, anyway.
To me, it's not so much a matter of whether or not they actually end up breaking out of those roles. It's more that the author chose to assign them to these characters. There isn't any criticism of these roles, either. Sure, Violet doesn't fit exactly with "traditional feminine disposition," but she still goes through a phase that a lot of girls (including myself) go through at some point. I think she still ends up wearing makeup or something? I can't remember, and I've skimmed the comic enough that I'm not too keen on going back to check. As for the husband of the homemaker (peony?), I find it totally unrealistic to have him be a detached salaryman one day and a caring husband the next (at least that's the impression I got). It's still quite… interesting that Minna has decided to include the bible and gender roles in her comic about little bunnies or something.
I know of a number of shows and stories that do make great critiques of the horrors of gender roles, and the bunny comic is about the farthest you can get from them.
I'm not sure if Minna's conversion has anything to do with it though, but I guess it's a well-known thing that people get dressed in their "sunday best" to go to church, and those often involve dresses? (can you tell I have never been to mass/church ever in my life? Yeah.)
I think that it's less about inclusivity and more about her own preferences. She "had an idea for the character that became Sigrun" - and all the concept art shows her looking competent and androgynous. A keen consumer of video games and various comics in her younger days, the fact that her heroines are not busty or flirtatious nor her heroes muscular and posing has got to be deliberate.
Or at least, it was. The extra art of a feminine-looking Sigrun sitting in her flowery sundress eating ice cream alongside Mikkel, while the Reynir and Emil played beach soccer was a nice change, but I can see it as a harbinger of the more feminine Sigrun of Adv. 2. The City of Hunger characterisations may also have been a tip-off - Onni had pretty darn buffed arms for a blimmin' cyborg, and Reynir cut his hair short. (At least Emil wasn't taller.)
I remember seeing her draw the drawings you've pointed out here. Back then, I thought it was about something along the lines of Sigrun and Mikkel taking on parental roles for the crew, so sitting back while they had fun. I guess I should have known that it seemed too much like Sigrun was fitting into a "motherly" role.
If I recall correctly, back in aRTD, there were a number of women who did not behave in traditionally "feminine" ways and were never depicted as such, and maybe even some of the men? Her art has been inching towards the other end of the sliding scale ever since. It was a gradual change, but compared to the bunny comic…
Post by: thorny on March 30, 2021, 12:46:51 PM
What's worth pointing out, I think, is that the three main characters of the bunny comic are pretty much parodies of current stereotypes for women. The overly bubbly internet influencer, the "christian homemaker," and I guess the elementary school teacher (in my time in elementary school, I only knew of three permanent male teachers) all fit into those pesky gender roles.
[ . . . ]
As for the husband of the homemaker (peony?), I find it totally unrealistic to have him be a detached salaryman one day and a caring husband the next (at least that's the impression I got).
[ . . . ]
I know of a number of shows and stories that do make great critiques of the horrors of gender roles, and the bunny comic is about the farthest you can get from them.
Yeah, I also noticed that all the main characters seem to have stereotypical gender roles.
It's not, for me, that any one of them does; any individual may actually fit in those roles, and it would make no more sense to say that women can't be homemakers or giggly shopping influencers than to say that men can't be or that women can't be mechanics. But when all the characters who are shown to any extent are like that --
I actually found that part of the husband's behavior entirely realistic, given the assumption of gender roles which "Lovely People" does appear to make: that was basically what men were supposed to do, go out and be the breadwinners but also be caring about their families when they were home, though they probably wouldn't be home much and wouldn't be making the dinner or changing the diapers. What I found unrealistic was that apparently the wife was so religious that access to her preferred version of the Bible was essential to her, but the husband had never paid any attention at all to this before and had to read it on the way home from work because he had no idea what was in it.
[ETA: though that would seem to fit with the impression I get of some proselytising Christians, that they think the only reason people aren't Christians is that we've somehow managed to never have been exposed to Christianity (laughable, for nearly anybody in the USA and Europe and large parts of the rest of the world), and that if we'd just stand still while they tell us about it then of course we'd convert. Maybe they'd also think that a loving husband could live with a religious wife for years and not have any idea what she was on about.]
And yes, there's plenty of stuff that makes great critiques of the horrors of gender roles. But there isn't very much that just portrays a society without them, in a fashion that takes this as a matter of course. That's what pulled me into SSSS.
Post by: moredhel on March 30, 2021, 02:00:18 PM
... the wife was so religious that access to her preferred version of the Bible was essential to her, but the husband had never paid any attention at all to this before and had to read it on the way home from work because he had no idea what was in it.That was a rather funny part of the comic. What a long way he has when he can read the bible on it an can reach the new testament. I have read the bible it is a long book and parts of it are pretty hard to read.
Post by: esedege on March 30, 2021, 07:12:59 PM
[…]she's free to turn all her female characters into Homemakers and all her male characters into Heads of Household if she wants. But that's not going to produce anything that I'm going to want to read. (Yes, I'm aware that there are some who prefer to read that sort of thing.)
+1
Maybe it's my own associations coming in, but I think she tells us pretty clearly what the value attached to it is that she wants us to consider. It's 'there is only One True Way and anybody who doesn't take it is Doomed'.
(I don't think that's anywhere near the only message that can be taken from the Bible, and I know that not everyone who follows the Bible even finds that message in it. But it appears to be the message that Minna has taken.)
I agree too here, but what you say happens when you get to the afterword, not during the reading.
I’m not sure how to elaborate, I even lack the ability in Spanish to put into words this bitter aftertaste, this “how dare you play the victim” feeling. I would be horrified if Christians would be persecuted around me, but that could not be further from the truth.
During the reading, I would think it’s all a story about irony, out of the pan and into the fire kind of thing. And then you get to the very ending and the afterword and find out she’s not only dead serious, but she’s judging you for not following her god exactly the same way she does.
Even if it didn’t come out of the blue, it all feels like a face-heel turn. We’ve been reading, cheering and supporting her during years, spreading knowledge… and she despises a lot of us. I even think now that that first image she showed us of LP (A2, p369) was deliberately appealing to our emotions to make us get into it unquestioningly. Coming back to said page has make me realize there’s a “soul” in there “praying on it”, which makes all this even more funnily painful. She also says that
Quote
This is a story idea I got a couple years ago or so
So maybe when it was a draft it was not such a hateful pamphlet, as some suggested earlier. Anyway, she’s played lots of us like a
I managed to gloss over that one partly because it was one throwaway line, and partly because as that was shown as part of people's massive confusion in those last couple of weeks of the old world, it wasn't even clear to me whether that was what was actually supposed to have happened, or whether she was depicting people who had no idea what was going on some of whom were blaming it on refugees without evidence.
I was more bothered by the racist-joke incident (seems a bit unfair to blame it on Emil, who himself would only have been horrendously but justifiably ignorant); but I was hoping that that was just ignorance on Minna's part combined with easily hurt feelings possibly due at least in part to her being a fairly young person who might not have been hit with that sort of pushback before. It's becoming clearer and clearer that instead of thinking it over given time and opening up she's just doubling down harder into insularity.
The refugees part is said as fact by the newsreader, who even knows they where eleven people. Don’t worry though, I consciously opted for glossing over it.
As a person who changes his mind when proven wrong*, apologizes when an apology is due* and tries not to antagonize if not needed, I’m almost glad I missed the Emil incident (no blame on him but in who puts the words in his mouth) because I could enjoy years of SSSS being none the wiser. Not glad that it happened, of course, nor about her reaction.
*Not 100% of the times, but I work hard on it.
Post by: Vulpes on March 30, 2021, 07:28:00 PM
One of the things that made so many people fall in love with these SSSS characters was that they do not conform to the gender norms. Most newbies misgender them, in fact.
[jumps up and down shouting Yes! Yes! Yes!]
[also jumps up and down shouting Yes! Yes! Yes!]
I don't remember when I discovered SSSS, but at some point on Hiveworks I was clicking random links and dropped into the middle of this startling world where people who looked like... well, people, were going about doing interesting things in mixed-gender groups, and nobody seemed to find it the least bit odd. It was quite refreshing. Like you, thorny, this has been my experience for the most part (with some really aggravating exceptions) so it was nice seeing it in a webcomic.
wave, I'm glad you mentioned Sigrun coming off as more feminine in Adv 2, I thought maybe I was imagining it. I also think Mikkel seems more traditionally manly, too. I've been pushing those impressions away, telling myself I'm just seeing things, but perhaps I'm not. I've not been following CoH other than to glance at some art, so it's interesting to hear that also is drifting into more heteronormative territory.
Of course it can be a mistake to go back, after learning something new about someone, and look for "signs" in their earlier work. But it's hard for me to ignore the fact that I've had some niggling concerns for the past year or two, that something seemed "off". The whole LP thing has been gutting, but I think that it would have been so much worse had I not had some back-of-the-mind doubts.
Post by: Róisín on March 31, 2021, 02:57:20 AM
And what was possibly even harder was getting the idea accepted that it was possible to do both at the same time. When I first married it was very difficult to get my bosses to understand that I was not about to quit doing science just because I had married. I was just glad that I was not in one of the fields where a woman had to resign when she married. It doesn’t seem to me that having a partner and children unfits a woman for other work, but back then it often happened that women could choose a career or marriage, not both, but that often seemed to be the case. I am very glad that I was able to survive that mess with both children and a career.
Post by: thegreyarea on April 01, 2021, 09:35:28 AM
I already read and posted at this thread, and there's a lot of interesting thoughts on it. I'm glad that we managed to keep the discussion civil and sure that it was important for everybody, allowing us to leave this situation better informed.
For keeping things running as smoothly as possible in this delicate moment I'd like to thank our moderators, Wave and Gweeno*, for what must have been a stressing task.
* don't know if there was anyone else involved.
A few extra thoughts on the topic, skip if already tired of this discussion:
Spoiler: show
Post by: JoB on April 01, 2021, 09:57:13 AM
Spoiler: show
Spoiler: show
Post by: thegreyarea on April 01, 2021, 10:17:15 AM
Spoiler: show
Spoiler: show
Post by: Jitter on April 01, 2021, 10:42:05 AM
TL;DR: I didn't like LP; I remain hopeful Minna is not in a cult; I'm mad at her for omitting any sort of warning
I'm in agreement with those of you who didn't find the story very interesting even notwithstanding the bible-thumping. The same ideas have been presented with more nuance and ingenuity by many authors and medias. Including some where I wouldn't expect them to outdo Minna in storytelling!
Like mostly everyone, I was surprised and alarmed by Minna's afterword. Some of you are very concerned for her, and certainly the way she writes her message brings into mind very conservative evangelical sects. I'm however willing to give it the benefit of a doubt and consider it's a possibility it is not that drastic. I have several reasons.
Firstly, Minna is Finnish and is writing in her third language, so it's possible not quite everything comes across exactly how she means it. It is easier for a non-native speaker (or writer, as is the case here) to miss some connotations that are glaringly obvious for other readers. Especially if the said speaker is specifically determined to put their words exactly how they want and not consider what it will look like to anyone else. This is also what her father mentions in Disqus.
I think Pessi has been commenting about Finnish Lutheranism here. The idea that everyone is a sinner and is not by their own virtue worth of god's love is a key point in the teaching, but this is not such a bad thing as it seems. Because the other and inseparable part of it is that everyone has been forgiven and are loved anyway. So that part of her comments could be consistent with finding (back?) to the mainstream Finnish Lutheranism. Her father hasn't specified their denomination at the time Minna was a child, but I think it probably was Lutheranism because that's the "baseline" hereabouts. A very large part of Finns are Lutheran, although many (most) are so culturally only.
There are several sects or revivalist movements (herätysliike) within the Lutheran church that have varying degree of differences in their interpretation of Christianity and customs. Some of them are very much stricter than the mainstream church and are e.g. strongly against modern media, prohibit contraception etc. while others are quite progressive. They all stress the living faith, having the faith as an everyday part of your life and not something you may think about at Christmas and Easter (as most Finnish so called Lutherans do). The main point, already made by Luther himself, is that everyone is saved only by god's mercy and through Jesus' sacrifice. The way I have been taught does however go on to say good deeds are not enough to get a person a pass to heaven, but good needs are the Christian way to live nevertheless (obviously the definition of good deeds varies widely). So, the way how the characters don't seem to care about anyone else but themselves is at odds with this kind of teaching.
Furthermore, in the stream last week she said she's not doing anything special for Easter. As far as I'm aware, Easter is the most important Christian celebration and it certainly is so for the Lutheran church, and even more for the Eastern Orthodox (the other main church here). So, had she been drawn into a very strict sect, one would expect something to happen at Easter, maybe just some prayer marathon over Zoom in the circumstances, but something. Not just a long weekend.
Fourthly (?? is it fourth?) her father (yes I'm willing to believe it is indeed her father) has been commenting on Disqus (ok so I have followed a bit, but only a little!) that he's in contact with Minna and there is no indication of her getting trapped by a cult. If she were, she probably wouldn't go out and directly say it to her family at first, but it's encouraging that they think she's all right.
So, because of the above reasons I remain hopeful that the faith she has found is a bit more moderate than the initial impression many of us, me included, got. I don't know if this it the case, but to me it seems still possible.
Independent of the exact nature of the church, congregation, sect, movement or cult she has found, springing the religious content upon us like that and hiding into the guise of the "oh sweet bunny comic" is still offensive. She did know it will cause a big reaction, and some (many) won't like it. She wanted to make it a surprise and that way force-feed it to us. It's within the realm of possibility she didn't realize beforehand just how damaging it would be to many people hurt by Christianism (that is luckily quite rare here although far from non-existent), but at least after she was told about the damage and she still refused to put in a content description is in my opinion cruel (in addition to being simply rude). While she has every right to say, write and draw whatever she wants, it was a betrayal of trust to fool us into it.
Many people in Disqus, and some here as well as in the stream are puzzled about why Christian content could require a content or trigger warning. I think this is partially because those people cannot understand how such content can be bad. This looks to me like inability or strong unwillingness to try see things from another's perspective. Some people seem to think it shows strength of character, I might call it lack of empathy.
Another thing in it seems to be that many people are in principle opposed to trigger warnings. Minna certainly is one of these people. In the stream we suggested again (not initiated by me but I supported) that a description should be added, but Minna was adamant. She said she'll never ever put any trigger warnings into her work. This is very unfortunate and certainly doesn't help rebuild the trust she broke. In the stream she also made a totally stupid strawman argument against trigger warnings.
So, while I felt merely puzzled and tricked, and wasn't personally actually hurt, I am angry at her stunt. I would not have been happy to read it if I had been warned (I would have read it nevertheless), but even I felt bad when it happened this way.
I also hope she will keep making SSSS until the proper end of A2. And based on what she said in the stream, it seems that's her plan, at least the current one. As for her next project, she has an idea "that will make many people happy" but she will still need to develop it for a long time. So I'm going to hang on, unless there are dramatic changes in the spirit of SSSS, and even after I stop reading that whether because it ends or because it goes sour, I will most certainly hang out here in the Forum :) Let's keep the community alive!
Post by: thorny on April 01, 2021, 12:13:46 PM
[spoiler]
By the way, Minna announced that she'll post the upcoming chapter's cover page on Mon 5th. That is a notable Christian holiday
Seems to depend on which Christians. Around here, at least, while a few groups (notably Amish) do indeed celebrate the Monday, for most Christians Monday seems to be back to business as usual.
(If she's not celebrating Easter at all, as Jitter thinks, that does seem odd to me; again, around here, even Christians who don't celebrate much of anything else do tend to celebrate Easter.)
I notice that this discussion is winding down, which I think is largely a good thing. I have been following the thread (Disqus comments I dropped several days ago) and most of my thoughts have been presented very well here!
Yes; I nearly posted some more a day or so ago but decided I'd be coming too close to repeating myself. But today's posts do seem to address some different, or at least new information on or only partially dealt with, topics.
The following contains some description of Finnish Lutheran Christian belief as I have understood it having been raised in a nominally Lutheran although very secular family, and attended Religious Studies for Lutherans in school. This does not correspond with my personal faith, but my faith is not the issue here anyways :)
Thanks for including that.
Minna was adamant. She said she'll never ever put any trigger warnings into her work. This is very unfortunate and certainly doesn't help rebuild the trust she broke. In the stream she also made a totally stupid strawman argument against trigger warnings.
I wonder what she'd think if someone put, say, graphic sexual content into a work with no warning?
People who get annoyed about "trigger warnings" often seem to assume that those will be given for kinds of content they're used to being able to avoid; they just don't think of them as "trigger warnings" in those cases.
even after I stop reading that whether because it ends or because it goes sour, I will most certainly hang out here in the Forum :) Let's keep the community alive!
Yes, I also hope this forum continues; even if it moves on entirely from Minna's works, leaving those discussions eventually available but archived. If that happens I expect it would need a name change.
Post by: SkyWhalePod on April 01, 2021, 12:58:25 PM
Jitter, thanks a ton for the cultural insight! I definitely feel like this whole LP situation has been part painful clash of perspectives, part misunderstanding due to a communications breakdown. If the conversation was two-way, maybe we would understand a little better what Minna means by the religious language she's used. Unfortunately, this is very much a one-way conversation and it seems like it will stay that way.
Honestly, most of the threads I've engaged with here have very little to do with SSSS, and they're doing very well, so I don't think we'll have a problem keeping the community alive :D
Post by: Jitter on April 01, 2021, 01:03:05 PM
Seems to depend on which Christians. Around here, at least, while a few groups (notably Amish) do indeed celebrate the Monday, for most Christians Monday seems to be back to business as usual.
(If she's not celebrating Easter at all, as Jitter thinks, that does seem odd to me; again, around here, even Christians who don't celebrate much of anything else do tend to celebrate Easter.)
Yeah, I mentioned it because it struck me as odd that she wouldn’t do anything special. Here both the Friday and Monday are public holidays, the main celebration day is Sunday. There are certain foods etc associated with Easter, and very many if not most Finnish families do “observe” it somehow, although again largely as a secular holiday.
I wonder what she'd think if someone put, say, graphic sexual content into a work with no warning?
People who get annoyed about "trigger warnings" often seem to assume that those will be given for kinds of content they're used to being able to avoid; they just don't think of them as "trigger warnings" in those cases.
Someone (not Minna) actually said in the stream that people just need to take responsibility for what they read. This was an argument against trigger warnings. I tried to ask how exactly that can be done when you are deliberately kept in the dark, but it didn’t become anything further.
I also came up with an analogy for this. Maybe it’s a bit late but I’ll put it here anyways. Assume you have a friend or an acquaintance that makes juices of the fruits if their own garden. From time to time you visit this person, and they offer the juice to you, and you know it’s good and refreshing. Then one day, after you have had a glass or two, you realize there is alcohol in the juice. Your friend says “Oh yes, I put in some vodka. I think it’s good for you, you are too stressed, I put it in because it helps you relax”. You did not plan to drink (maybe you never do) and feel unhappy about this, but they just say it’s not illegal to give drinks to people. It’s not illegal (you are an adult in this story) and they actually had your best interest in mind, so they did the right thing? It was good they didn’t tell you, as you may have said no to the drink despite it being good for you? Everything is good, right? You are just upset over nothing.
Post by: thegreyarea on April 01, 2021, 01:15:46 PM
...Jitter, your TL;DR sums quite well my opinions*. And thanks for all the info.
TL;DR: I didn't like LP; I remain hopeful Minna is not in a cult; I'm mad at her for omitting any sort of warning
...
I also hope she will keep making SSSS until the proper end of A2. And based on what she said in the stream, it seems that's her plan, at least the current one. As for her next project, she has an idea "that will make many people happy" but she will still need to develop it for a long time. So I'm going to hang on, unless there are dramatic changes in the spirit of SSSS, and even after I stop reading that whether because it ends or because it goes sour, I will most certainly hang out here in the Forum :) Let's keep the community alive!
I'm very curious about this "idea" of hers, and particularly about which people fits in that "happy" group. Us, her usual fans? Or some new "friends"? I guess we will have to wait...
As you can imagine I'm very happy that you will stay! :)
And for you, Thorny! :) You may also be right about the name part, but I believe we're still some time away from that decision.
And for you too, SkyWhalePod! :)
Oh, and about your analogy, Jitter, we could add "what if you have a medical condition that makes alcohol very bad to your health?" or "what if you are an former alcoholic that is slowly recovering?" That last one comes closer to those who had bad experiences related with the Christian Faith. And all the options are very bad.
* Even if I like the comic graphic art, that is very well done. And yes, I tend to compartimentalize a lot.
Post by: Songbird on April 01, 2021, 01:53:49 PM
This community seems to be one of those hidden oasis you sometimes stumble upon in the vast wilderness of the internet full of thoughtful, caring people. That's rare. And as far as I can tell a big center of gravity of the forums is lies in storytelling, art, and languages, with a dash of roleplaying; all things I cherish and don't get enough of.
Is that odd to say I'm looking forward to see the post-SSSS era? There's always the danger of this fizzling out, but there's the chance of it becoming something else. I'm curious about what it'll be—and I must admit that after this incident hanging around makes me uncomfortable.
Post by: SkyWhalePod on April 01, 2021, 01:56:43 PM
I also came up with an analogy for this. Maybe it’s a bit late but I’ll put it here anyways. Assume you have a friend or an acquaintance that makes juices of the fruits if their own garden. From time to time you visit this person, and they offer the juice to you, and you know it’s good and refreshing. Then one day, after you have had a glass or two, you realize there is alcohol in the juice. Your friend says “Oh yes, I put in some vodka. I think it’s good for you, you are too stressed, I put it in because it helps you relax”. You did not plan to drink (maybe you never do) and feel unhappy about this, but they just say it’s not illegal to give drinks to people. It’s not illegal (you are an adult in this story) and they actually had your best interest in mind, so they did the right thing? It was good they didn’t tell you, as you may have said no to the drink despite it being good for you? Everything is good, right? You are just upset over nothing.
While I like the analogy, I can see somebody on the pro-LP side of this conversation not being convinced by it. I've been playing a little game with myself lately: what sort of hurt can somebody do to another person that the first person feels warrants an apology, and what sort of hurt might that first person consider undeserving of apology?
It seems like everyone can agree that we should respect people's physical health and their choices regarding that. If we physically hurt someone, or feed them something they can't/are opposed to consuming, we apologize. I think that's universally considered good behavior. This may be in part because we don't have total control over our bodies -- we don't heal fast, we can't dispel unwanted food or drink from our bodies short of sticking our fingers down our throats, which in itself is an unpleasant experience. If we had Wolverine-levels of superhealing abilities (you know, before he got poisoned by all that adamantium in his bones) or could become transparent to the stuff we don't want to consume so that it easily falls out of us, would committing a physical faux pas be deserving of an apology then? I think maybe it would, but it might be more akin to forgetting to hand somebody a plate during a meal, or accidentally standing in someone's way at the grocery store. More like, "Oh, sorry, I inconvenienced you but we can sort everything out easily and now it's fine." But with physical health.
Emotions and mental states are a lot murkier, and that's the stuff that entertainment/literature/et cetera affect. How much control does each of us have over the things we feel and our mental health? I don't think everybody agrees on that, and that's the problem. Some of us are deeply affected by the comments that other people make (for example, when somebody says "calm down" jokingly, it really sets me off because my most recent romantic partner was the kind of person who would say that when they didn't think the other person's seriousness was worth paying attention to). Others of us are less deeply affected by those same comments. How can you tell when someone else's strong feelings are warranted, if you've never felt them yourself? How can you tell whether somebody is managing their hurt as much as they can, or playing the victim? The Internet makes it really hard to tell sometimes. So I think in response to your analogy, somebody might say, "Feelings aren't the same as physical health. You can control your own mind, so do it."
Interestingly, I think almost everybody can agree that if somebody dies, you don't say bad things about them to their living loved ones, and you don't make jokes about death while they're grieving. Grief after/during loss is a feeling everybody knows that they should respect. Maybe because it's a feeling everybody can understand, and knows that it can't be willed away. Taking other kinds of emotional pain seriously can be more difficult if you don't understand them -- all you can do is trust that the other person is being honest about it. Here, on this forum, I think we trust people when they talk about pain we haven't personally experienced or witnessed -- we trust that their feelings aren't will-away-able, the pain is real, and as deserving of an apology as physical pain. Elsewhere, people don't trust that those feelings aren't will-away-able, and might be afraid that taking the trust leap would mean being taken advantage of by somebody playing the victim.
That's how I see it, anyway. The idea that the "get over it" people think that intense feelings can/should be controlled/suppressed isn't a new one. I'm not sure that the orange-juice-to-screwdriver analogy would really work on somebody who isn't already open to it? Maybe that wasn't the point of your analogy in the first place, Jitter, I'm not sure who your intended audience was with that. Either way I think it brings up an interesting point about what we expect from people re: regulation of their own emotions.
Post by: JoB on April 01, 2021, 02:06:19 PM
But do you really have public, for-everybody, restrictions in Germany?Yes. The details vary from state to state, but the basic concept of "stille Feiertage" where everybody has to respect the Christian wish for, well, solemnity spans the entire nation. The pinnacle is the (in)famous "Tanzverbot (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanzverbot)" on Good Friday (i.e., tomorrow).
Spoiler: details, details ... • show
psst... why do we keep talking under spoilers?Dunno, you started putting spoilers on the side topic ... ;)
Another thing in it seems to be that many people are in principle opposed to trigger warnings. Minna certainly is one of these people. In the stream we suggested again (not initiated by me but I supported) that a description should be added, but Minna was adamant. She said she'll never ever put any trigger warnings into her work.I guess we can all predict how that'll go in the long run: She'll find that she did nonetheless, because people will start to take her name on it as a trigger warning.
Is that odd to say I'm looking forward to see the post-SSSS era? There's always the danger of this fizzling out, but there's the chance of it becoming something else. I'm curious about what it'll beWelcome to The Pundemonium. >:D
Post by: Vulpes on April 01, 2021, 02:11:18 PM
To be honest, considering some trigger warnings I have encountered, I'm not sure how someone who needs such warnings can deal with many ordinary news stories. But I do think that it's reasonable to expect an accurate description of a course, or a work. The description of SSSS includes "some horror, monsters and magic" so someone encountering it for the first time is forewarned and can decide for themselves whether this is something that they are interested in reading. Similarly, the syllabus for the invertebrate biology course I teach mentions spiders. Arachnophobes still take the course, but they are braced for that section.
I don't think that the description of LP is particularly accurate, and I do think that you have to consider the context of the works that we know Minna from. I don't think that what should've been provided would be a trigger warning, exactly, more of a heads up that this is a departure from what we're used to. Jitter's analogy is an excellent one - if my friend who reliably gave me fruit juice suddenly handed me a screwdriver without telling me what it was, I would be annoyed, regardless of how much I might enjoy screwdrivers. There are a few things that it is (at best) rude to do people without warning - give them alcohol, show them a nude artwork, and I would argue that proseletyzing is also one. Especially if it's coming from someone who, in your experience, does not proseletyze.
Post by: Sc0ut on April 01, 2021, 02:34:06 PM
To be honest, considering some trigger warnings I have encountered, I'm not sure how someone who needs such warnings can deal with many ordinary news stories.
Plenty of people stay away from the news because it tends to be so negative, regardless if they're aware of having any triggers or not.
My understanding of triggers is that they're a courtesy, a way to make a space more accessible to people with trauma or other kinds of mental suffering. In the same way that maybe an old person with limited mobility can climb a set of stairs, but they will have an easier time if the stairs have a railing. And if the "railing" is as easy to install as writing a few words, it's kind of a jerk move not to, right?
I feel like trigger warnings, and the people who push for them, are often misrepresented through claims that people will always avoid engaging with content with trigger warnings. That's not true - like you mentioned about arachnophobes, they are just better prepared to deal with that content. For instance, I myself don't have any triggers, but as someone who's generally empathetic and rattled by a lot of descriptions of suffering and unfairness, I really appreciate content warnings when they exist because they help me know whether I'm in an appropriate mental state to read that content, or if I might want to save it for another time.
Post by: Jitter on April 01, 2021, 02:40:55 PM
If people did understand, and if mental ailments and divergences would be taken as seriously as physical ones, the world would definitely be a better place! For everyone, I dare suggest.
Post by: Yuuago on April 01, 2021, 02:58:56 PM
Plenty of people stay away from the news because it tends to be so negative, regardless if they're aware of having any triggers or not.
My understanding of triggers is that they're a courtesy, a way to make a space more accessible to people with trauma or other kinds of mental suffering. (....)
I feel like trigger warnings, and the people who push for them, are often misrepresented through claims that people will always avoid engaging with content with trigger warnings. That's not true - like you mentioned about arachnophobes, they are just better prepared to deal with that content.
Yes, this.
To bring up another example from a class, when I was in university, I took a class where we discussed the Black Plague. One of the presentation slides had photographs of plague infection, and before going to that slide, the prof gave us a heads up about the content before proceeding. That is in fact a trigger warning, even if this was before the term was in use. And it was useful even for people without ptsd because we could prepare ourselves for the (gross) visual first.
Which is why I prefer to think of this as describing content than as trigger warnings per se.
As for re: news... Vulpes: the answer is, like Scout suggested, the news is avoided, or people carefully curate where they get it. Or they do things like turn off images before reading news.
In my case, I’m more likely to experience problems when walking down the street than browsing anything on the internet, because my triggers are audio and scent-based. Not everyone experiences this stuff in the same way.
Post by: tzelly on April 01, 2021, 03:15:57 PM
Sometimes I just skip the description if its an author I trust cause I want to go in blind (or my adhd kicks in and I just don't want to read a small text wall when reading a comic) and let the story speak for itself. Trigger warnings get my attention far better and make me take a moment to consider what I'm about to read.
I read a lot of news, but I am not always mentally capable to handle it and avoid it for a time. Sometimes I'm into disturbing content, other times I would feel physically sick just from a glance.
Sometimes I want to read something that challenges my beliefs, other times its too painful and will spin me into a depression episode (like LP did for about a week). Even if you don't need them, others might. Even if its just a warning cause its "one thing too many" kinda day.
Post by: thorny on April 01, 2021, 05:09:31 PM
Here both the Friday and Monday are public holidays
Yes. The details vary from state to state, but the basic concept of "stille Feiertage" where everybody has to respect the Christian wish for, well, solemnity spans the entire nation. [ . . . ]
Literally "interdiction to dance", actually a ban on public events ranging from "dancing/music and sports" to "OK, we'll allow gastronomy, for one, but no music playing there!"
Thanks, both of you.
Much as I often think the USA is so imbued with Christianity that many people don't even notice that it is, a ban on anybody dancing in public in an entire state because Christians (or anybody else) wanted to be solemn on that day wouldn't wash. And neither Good Friday nor Easter Monday are public holidays. Easter isn't either; but I suspect that's because it always falls on a Sunday, and here "public holiday" means only that government offices and jobs are closed down, which they are anyway on Sundays. Christmas is our only legal holiday that's explicitly based on a religious celebration, but I think that if Easter changed days of the week it probably would have been also.
[ETA: Of course Sunday closures are also originally religious; but they're pretty much down to optional except for government offices, and most people are in favor of The Weekend theoretically off work for secular reasons, though fewer and fewer people actually get that.)
I am here because of SSSS yet I'm not here for SSSS.
This community seems to be one of those hidden oasis you sometimes stumble upon in the vast wilderness of the internet full of thoughtful, caring people. That's rare. And as far as I can tell a big center of gravity of the forums is lies in storytelling, art, and languages, with a dash of roleplaying; all things I cherish and don't get enough of.
Is that odd to say I'm looking forward to see the post-SSSS era? There's always the danger of this fizzling out, but there's the chance of it becoming something else. I'm curious about what it'll be—and I must admit that after this incident hanging around makes me uncomfortable.
I also post on the Straight Dope boards. Recently, there was a thread on those boards asking what other surviving message boards people thought were worth going to. And I thought immediately of this forum; but I thought, also, that I wasn't sure I wanted to recommend a board that in its origins and title was focussed on a particular comic and on its author, when that author has been behaving in a fashion that would cause controversy over there also. (Warning: if you go look at Straight Dope, for reasons utterly unclear to me a significant number of people over there seem to find it important to be able to swear, including sometimes in thread titles. Also there is sometimes quite a bit of controversy.) I almost wound up posting to recommend this forum but with a warning about the comic, but while I was trying to think about wording it the thread dropped out of current use and at least so far I haven't resurrected it.
It seems like everyone can agree that we should respect people's physical health and their choices regarding that. If we physically hurt someone, or feed them something they can't/are opposed to consuming, we apologize. I think that's universally considered good behavior.
I wish that it were. But there very unfortunately are people who will feed hidden meat to vegetarians, or hidden ingredients to people who are avoiding them for health reasons, on the grounds that they think the people doing the avoiding shouldn't be doing that.
Someone (not Minna) actually said in the stream that people just need to take responsibility for what they read. This was an argument against trigger warnings.
As you say: that's an argument for warnings, not against them; because it's not possible to take responsibility if you've got no idea what's in there.
Quite a lot of the people sneering at content warnings are the same people who were arguing vehemently for warnings (if not outright prohibitions) on movies, magazines, etc. with sexual content; or even with non-sexual human nudity.
I also came up with an analogy for this.
I think that alcohol analogy is actually a pretty good analogy, and will point out another way that it works, in addition to what's already been pointed out: Some people avoid alcohol for religious reasons, even if it wouldn't do them physically any harm.
To be honest, considering some trigger warnings I have encountered, I'm not sure how someone who needs such warnings can deal with many ordinary news stories. B
Some people can't deal with ordinary news stories. (I'm not sure any of us could deal with some of them and still function, except by having a sort of shunt in our brains that takes the edge off.)
But I also think that a lot of the problem may be in how people understand the phrasing "trigger warnings", which seems to generally be the term used by people objecting to them, though people using them often (not always) seem to use "content warnings" instead. I think that some see/hear the phrase "trigger warnings" and think 'people are saying that if they ever happen to read/see this they'll be thrown entirely for a loop and may be seriously long-term injured!' and while yes, for a relatively small number this can be true, for a much larger number of people the usefulness of the warning is not so they can be permanently protected from whatever's being described, but so that they can choose whether to deal with it at that particular moment and/or in that particular format. Expecting to see arachnids in a biology course with that on the syllabus is one thing; going to have lunch with somebody you think is a friend and finding them all over the tablecloth would be something else entirely. It might well be worth it to you overall to take the biology course, even if you never want to have lunch with that person again.
I guess we can all predict how that'll go in the long run: She'll find that she did nonetheless, because people will start to take her name on it as a trigger warning.
That's a very good point.
Post by: Draco Probabilisticus on April 01, 2021, 05:47:02 PM
On that note, hi.
As for the comic itself, I have to admit I couldn't be bothered to read through all of it. There's just... nothing to it, no new ideas, it is indeed just an episode of Black Mirror with a religious flavour additive. But the afterword... ooh boy. I never really had much personal experience with religion, but it seems to me that nearly anybody, regardless of their religious views, would feel very concerned after reading what Minna wrote. If not for themselves, then at least for her. Her attitude is just plain unhealthy, such levels of self-condemnation over simply being human never lead to anything good. I can only hope she has someone by her side to help her climb out of this mindset.
Post by: Jitter on April 01, 2021, 05:56:35 PM
Much as I often think the USA is so imbued with Christianity that many people don't even notice that it is, a ban on anybody dancing in public in an entire state because Christians (or anybody else) wanted to be solemn on that day wouldn't wash.
Finland used to have similar restrictions, restaurants, bars, movies and everything considered “fun” was closed on Good Friday. The Finnish term is Long Friday, maybe it felt longer with all the Solemn everywhere :) Nowadays public offices, schools etc are closed but stores, bars etc can be open. Shops tend ro have shorter hours than a normal Friday, and many small specialty shops are closed. Also Alko, the state-owned liquor store (yes, anything stronger than beer is sold exclusively by Alko, and in restaurants for consumption in the premises) is closed on Good Friday as well as Easter Monday (and all Sundays).
I think that alcohol analogy is actually a pretty good analogy, and will point out another way that it works, in addition to what's already been pointed out: Some people avoid alcohol for religious reasons, even if it wouldn't do them physically any harm.
Another thing that crossed my mind at some point. This bothers me a lot, I seem to have given it a lot of thought. “This” here being inability to understand what and why is a trigger or content warning.
Post by: Draco Probabilisticus on April 01, 2021, 05:58:10 PM
And I really don't understand the Christian trinity.
Well, the entire religion broke in half over the Trinity question at one point, so I think it's fair to say nobody really understands it.
Post by: moredhel on April 01, 2021, 06:21:45 PM
This community seems to be one of those hidden oasis you sometimes stumble upon in the vast wilderness of the internet full of thoughtful, caring people. That's rare. And as far as I can tell a big center of gravity of the forums is lies in storytelling, art, and languages, with a dash of roleplaying; all things I cherish and don't get enough of.
Yes this little internet lehto is an extraordinary place. In the internet's constant battle and yelling, Its chaos and looking for the maximum allowed insult there is this place. Where the talk is civilized and respectful. I felt accepted immediately. I truly feel like a safe zone citizen here. At this special place, nobody seems to think different oppinions should be corrected immediately. Here every different voice enrichens the choir.
And creativity and inspiration are here in an ammount and quality I do not know the correct superlative for describing it.
Post by: Vulpes on April 01, 2021, 08:43:40 PM
Post by: SkyWhalePod on April 01, 2021, 08:48:04 PM
Yes this little internet lehto is an extraordinary place. In the internet's constant battle and yelling, Its chaos and looking for the maximum allowed insult there is this place. Where the talk is civilized and respectful. I felt accepted immediately. I truly feel like a safe zone citizen here. At this special place, nobody seems to think different oppinions should be corrected immediately. Here every different voice enrichens the choir.
And creativity and inspiration are here in an ammount and quality I do not know the correct superlative for describing it.
Totally agree, I've only been here a week (?!) and I feel completely welcome, it's incredible. I probably would never have posted even as much as I have already if everyone wasn't so considerate. Very grateful to everyone here.
Also as an aside: Jitter, I'm just now watching the vod from Minna's latest Twitch stream and seeing the conversation you and a few others tried to have there re: an accurate description of LP. Boy, that could have gone better. It's true that if one is expected to be responsible for what one reads, one should at least be able to see what's on the tin, so to speak. I was covering my face and "oh no"ing the minute you said that it was wrong to misrepresent LP in its own description because I knew that Minna's response wouldn't be charitable, and it wasn't. I've never felt so tense and stressed during one of her art streams before -- simultaneously wanting her to address the multifaceted concerns people had about the comic, and not wanting her to address them because it probably wasn't going to be open-minded. Thanks for at least trying to represent the portion of Minna's audience that is really uncomfortable right now, and doing it in a calm way.
Yes, the world would be a much better place if we took each other's pain seriously, physical and mental. :)
Post by: JoB on April 02, 2021, 03:22:42 AM
[...] Good Friday. The Finnish term is Long Friday, maybe it felt longer with all the Solemn everywhere :)The names of those holidays and the etymology thereof are a science unto itself (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday#Etymology), and no, the variant "Long Friday" did not need any Finnish midnight sun to come into existence. :P
(FWIW, Germany follows (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesetzliche_Feiertage_in_Deutschland#%C3%9Cbersicht_aller_gesetzlichen_Feiertage) the model of making Easter Fri+Mon national public holidays and Sat+Sun "just a normal weekend", only with the "silent holiday" extra rules for Fri and two states making Sun an official public holiday on top.)
I suppose my problem is what thorny describes, interpreting "trigger" as something deeply harmful rather than something that it would be nice to be braced for. I'm all for giving people the ability to prepare themselves for something they may find unpleasant - when I cover parasites in lecture I try to remember it's coming up and let people know!I'm of mixed opinions about that. If I were aiming strictly for a description of (out of average) content, without using a (subjective, of course) concept of what might or mightn't actually "trigger" someone, I'd have to mention stuff down to "I do references (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_sink), as well as run-on sentences and nouns" ...
Spoiler: show
Yuuago, that must be quite challenging, reacting strongly to scents and sounds. I find certain smells quite evocative, but fortunately they only evoke good memories. I had a student who couldn't deal with the smell of vinegar (a side-effect of chemotherapy), which must have complicated his life.Being the evolutionarily oldest senses, olfaction and (to a lesser extent) hearing use nerves going straight to the deeper layers of our brains, and are thus much more likely to trigger emotions, which also tend to inhabit a more central abode than the neocortex.
Post by: Umbral Reaver on April 02, 2021, 05:41:47 AM
Post by: Jerry B. on April 02, 2021, 07:53:49 AM
Post by: Sc0ut on April 02, 2021, 09:13:39 AM
Took me long enough to realize that "Alizongle" in the story is actually Ali Baba, the Chinese e-commerce group.
Someone said earlier in the thread that it's probably a combo of Ali Baba, Amazon and Google, and I agree.
Post by: Superdark33 on April 02, 2021, 11:56:00 AM
I didnt really comment on it when it happened, but im not really keen on the parasocial discussions on the well-being of Minna, its a bit iffy to speculate on a person's personal life like that.
Post by: Sc0ut on April 02, 2021, 02:14:47 PM
I didnt really comment on it when it happened, but im not really keen on the parasocial discussions on the well-being of Minna, its a bit iffy to speculate on a person's personal life like that.
Is it really parasocial? In my understanding the key component of a parasocial relationship is the imagined reciprocity. I didn't get the feeling that any of us who discussed the place Minna might be at feel that she's our personal friend or cares about us (I can only speak for myself for sure, and I certainly don't believe that). I personally don't even claim to care about her beyond a very general "I'd rather everyone was doing well", I never was into that overprotective approach some people had towards her in earlier days of fandom.
I don't like going too wild with speculating about people's personal lives and intentions either (whether they're famous or not), but I think some amount of "what the hell happened here, and how might I prevent being blindsided again if it happens with other authors/people I know" is inevitable when someone you know about displays such a big, sudden shift in personal values. Part of trying to understand something is talking about it imo.
Post by: catbirds on April 02, 2021, 03:59:51 PM
I don't like going too wild with speculating about people's personal lives and intentions either (whether they're famous or not), but I think some amount of "what the hell happened here, and how might I prevent being blindsided again if it happens with other authors/people I know" is inevitable when someone you know about displays such a big, sudden shift in personal values. Part of trying to understand something is talking about it imo.
It did get out of hand a few pages ago, at which point I think Wave decided to put a stop to it because it was getting close to armchair diagnoses. However, thoughts about how this comic might have happened, especially those that consider past events, seem pretty helpful.
As someone who almost always had Minna's stream in the background (but not anymore from now on, I think), I felt that at one point a few months ago it became obvious that this was what the "bunny comic" would be about. My big "oh no"/"oh [expletive]" moment was when I saw the words "SOCIAL CREDIT SYSTEM" tacked on the blackboard in a drawing she was working on, either in a stream or in a video. I still cut her a bit of slack by waving it off as "well maybe it'll be handled well" (considering that I enjoyed her previous stories), though clearly that did not end up being the case. I'm not sure if anyone's out there still archiving streams, but if anyone has several hours of time to burn, you can go back and check.
Post by: Maple on April 02, 2021, 08:57:26 PM
I think the talk about "Well real life doesn't warn for content, so I'm not going to warn for my comic" is disingenuous because it misses the entire point: that this is a comic to be read for fun.
Yes, of course real life isn't going to have content warnings before something horrible happens. Tragedy happens with no warning whatsoever sometimes. But a comic isn't real life. Reading a comic is an activity people do for fun. And when people go looking for something to do for fun, they're going to read reviews and summaries to find something they personally want to do.
Here is an example of what I mean: I don't like spiders. I REALLY don't like spiders. In real life if I see a spider I have to call in someone else to take the spider out of my room and move it outside. Or if it's in a public space I quickly move away from it. So when I'm looking for something to do in my free time, I still don't want to see spiders. So if I see a warning of "hey, this page here has lots of pictures of cute little jumping spiders" I say "awesome, good for you, enjoy those pictures. I'm going to go somewhere else, thank you." I don't expect people to jump in and tell me "hey Maple there's a spider in your bedroom", because that's not realistic. But if people post pictures of spiders all over a web page without at least going "there be spiders here" then I get annoyed, because I don't want to spend what little free time I have looking at spiders! I want to do something else!
That's a bit simplistic of an answer, but it's the idea. Entertainment comes with content warnings all the time so people can make a personal judgement of if they want to consume that entertainment. Movie ratings, series summaries, book reviews, that sort of thing. Content warnings are everywhere in entertainment, because entertainment is supposed to be fun and making informed choices on entertainment is important to having that fun.
I just think it misses the mark to go "Real life doesn't have content warnings", because that's not the point. You don't see people saying "Real life doesn't come with ratings, so let's remove ratings from movies."
Post by: Tarnagh on April 02, 2021, 09:15:08 PM
I just think it misses the mark to go "Real life doesn't have content warnings", because that's not the point. You don't see people saying "Real life doesn't come with ratings, so let's remove ratings from movies."I 100% agree with this. Entertainment contains content warnings for a reason. Parents may not want to let their children watch something violent or with strong sexual overtones. Or maybe, they don't want to see it themselves. Regardless, entertainment forms of all types contain content warnings so people can choose for themselves whether or not they want to consume that content. Webcomics are another form of entertainment. We know SSSS is a horror comic and we can expect there will be times that we will see icky things. We choose to read it knowing full well that these scenes are going to happen. Some of webcomics have "mature" themes and people read those knowing what they're getting into.
Not providing a content warning (or at least a brief synopsis of themes) is pretty much asking for it in terms of some people getting upset over content they wanted no part of reading.
My two cents, anyhow.
Post by: Róisín on April 02, 2021, 11:44:35 PM
That kind of warning is simply basic courtesy among people interacting. But the problem with films, webcomics or the internet is that something disgusting, horrifying or just plain scary can suddenly be right in front of you with zero warning. Not even in terms of ‘trigger warnings’, but also in terms of things you might not want your virgin fifteen year old child to see or hear, or your Afghanistan-veteran brother or your holocaust-survivor greataunt to suddenly be confronted with. Hence things like ratings and content warnings on films or books, or indeed like having a mature board here on the Forum for such things as art, discussions and stories with adult themes of sex or really extreme horror. It might be useful, for instance, to have a warning about proselytising a One True Way in the author’s notes to the bunny comic?
Post by: Tarnagh on April 03, 2021, 12:29:45 AM
And my husband has in the past requested that my medical relatives not spend the whole dinner party discussing what he labels as ‘purulent pustules we have known’.I absolutely love your husband's description of that kind of medical shop-talk! :))
That kind of warning is simply basic courtesy among people interacting.
It might be useful, for instance, to have a warning about proselytising a One True Way in the author’s notes to the bunny comic?
And yes, basic courtesy. Common politeness.
It would have been incredibly useful, and this entire debacle could have been avoided completely.
Post by: JoB on April 03, 2021, 02:11:23 AM
I think the talk about "Well real life doesn't warn for content, so I'm not going to warn for my comic" is disingenuous because it misses the entire point: that this is a comic to be read for fun.It misses the point of people wanting to read comics etc. as something outside their "real life" in the first place.
(I'd call that "escapism" if it weren't commonly understood as referring only to a small part of works and people.)
So when I'm looking for something to do in my free time, I still don't want to see spiders. [...] But if people post pictures of spiders all over a web page without at least going "there be spiders here" then I get annoyed, because I don't want to spend what little free time I have looking at spiders! I want to do something else![goes to hide the spider-shaped wine gums sitting on the kitchen counter]
Spoiler: details • show
Post by: Grade E cat on April 03, 2021, 02:51:13 AM
I'm aware there some people out there who will be given such an explanation and still not "get it", Minna may very well be one of them, and several people may have already tried that on her for all I know. But personally, having content warnings explained to me like Maple just did would have made it much easier for me to "get it" than simply being told something along the lines of "please add a warning, there are people who don't like seeing such things in what they read without warning". The room for interpreting the latter when its intended meaning isn't already known is surprisingly big, and I can personally see how someone can get the idea that "real life has no warnings" is a valid counter-argument to it.
Post by: wavewright62 on April 03, 2021, 05:34:12 AM
And my husband has in the past requested that my medical relatives not spend the whole dinner party discussing what he labels as ‘purulent pustules we have known’.
That.
That. Is well worth the price of admission.
(http://i.imgur.com/q3NfqD0.png)
Post by: JoB on April 03, 2021, 07:31:12 AM
That.One has to admit, though, that treating those is a form of expressive art.
That. Is well worth the price of admission.
Post by: Vulpes on April 03, 2021, 09:20:21 AM
It's still a minefield in academia, though - probably due to a lack of understanding and poor communication on both sides. Academics really, really don't like being told what to do (academic freedom, and all that), and I think that the students pushing for such warnings tend to be a bit over-zealous. I've seen a lot of outright demands for trigger warnings, along the lines of "You have to include trigger warnings because I don't want to deal with uncomfortable topic X at all." That is guaranteed to annoy an academic - they've carefully chosen a set of topics to cover for a reason, and because learning often happens at the edge of the comfort zone, they may be pushing those boundaries on purpose. They interpret such demands as "I don't want to learn," or worse, "I know better than you what I need to learn." Academics care deeply about learning, and usually have pretty big egos, so that's bound to get their backs up! And once someone is irritated, they stop listening. If those vocal students asking for trigger warnings would phrase it as several have done in this thread, e.g. "Please let us know when we'll be discussing an uncomfortable topic ahead of time so that we can be ready for it," I think most profs would be happy to do so. But there would still be those who would say, "Look, the topic of the course by necessity includes uncomfortable stuff, just come to class braced for it, for goodness sake!"
And my husband has in the past requested that my medical relatives not spend the whole dinner party discussing what he labels as ‘purulent pustules we have known’.
:)) Weirdly, I'm with your husband on this one. Dinner conversation around here may frequently revolve around a variety of biological topics, but usually not human disease in graphic detail. Usually... :'D
Post by: Sc0ut on April 03, 2021, 11:49:12 AM
Post by: thorny on April 03, 2021, 12:25:07 PM
It's useful to keep in mind that while this thread has steered towards discussing the utility of content warnings in general, for people who don't get triggered per se, people whose brains relive traumatic memories after a trigger do still exist and that's an overwhelmingly bad experience and a recognized mental health issue.
Yes -- I'm sorry if my discussion of considering the 'content warning' aspect of this seemed to gloss over that part. There are indeed some people for whom 'trigger' is more accurate and no amount of bracing oneself in advance is going to make the problem go away.
Am I correct in guessing that needing to deal with such things may well include not being able to take some courses, or take up some lines of work, in general -- as, say, a person with a height phobia would probably not take a job involving repairing roofs or building skyscrapers, the one with arachnophobia shouldn't go into a line of work involving scouting farm fields for pests and beneficials, or even take the training for such work? The person afraid of heights might occasionally still need to fly, which would be a different sort of problem; but the equivalent with reading a comic (or other form of artwork) would be, don't read that sort of comic. I can imagine situations in which not being able to fly might really mess one's life up otherwise, or even mess up somebody else's life; but it's really hard to imagine a situation in which not reading a comic would do so.
In the academic situation it does seem to me that some people are imagining -- and, people being people, have maybe even run into -- cases in which students determined to take entomology courses want to be guaranteed that they'll never see cockroaches, or students determined to take history courses don't want to deal with descriptions of racism, and so on. There do seem to be some people who want to take biology without having to be exposed to any mention of evolution. But the Lovely People case doesn't seem to me to be at all equivalent to that; and a good deal of what I've seen discussed or complained about in the context of academia doesn't seem to be either.
Post by: Sc0ut on April 03, 2021, 01:08:29 PM
Am I correct in guessing that needing to deal with such things may well include not being able to take some courses, or take up some lines of work, in general -- as, say, a person with a height phobia would probably not take a job involving repairing roofs or building skyscrapers, the one with arachnophobia shouldn't go into a line of work involving scouting farm fields for pests and beneficials, or even take the training for such work?
I don't know. This is not for me to guess since I don't experience this condition myself nor do I know anyone who does (that I'm aware of), I've just read about it. I've learned to be cautious about making these kind of "common sense" assumptions about life situations I don't experience myself after learning that, for instance, it was quite common during the age of sail for sailors to not know how to swim (and in some parts of the world it still is), or that there are people who are journalists despite being blind or nonverbal, which to me would seem like impossible hurdles in such a profession - but apparently are not. I think in certain cases, the event that generated the trigger might also generate the motivation for the person to get their education, such as an abuse survivor wanting to become a social worker or psychologist to help others in their shoes. This, of course, means they must engage with difficult content, but they would probably still appreciate the heads-up rather than it being sprung on them.
Post by: Jitter on April 03, 2021, 04:02:30 PM
So, I’m trypophobic (this is the term I recommend you to not google). Trypophobia is the phobia of holes or more precisely of clusters of holes. Some sufferers get it from very many things and patterns, while for others it’s just certain kind of holes or pictures of them. Many get a bad reaction from viewing a stack of straight pipes from the end do that they see into many of pipes at once, and/or honeycombs. For me it’s only some organic kinds, and geometric or regular holes don’t do anything.
Interestingly enough, the existence of this phobia was not known of until well into the 2000’s when people happened to discuss it over the internet and discovered they are not the only one who gets this weird reaction. Unfortunately nowadays it’s hard to learn anything about it because many sites seem to consider it amusing to adorn pages telling about it with pictures that cause it to maximum amount of people.
It sounds ridiculous. I find it ridiculous, stupid, idiotic! I can extremely easily see how it seems like a made up thing, if you don’t have it. Yet I can’t help it. My son also has it. My husband was sure I had told my son about it and therefore “made” him get it, but I hadn’t! The intensity varies, sometimes he gets uneasy if there is e.g. foam in his drink or food, although mostly that kind of thing is ok. In my own case, if I get properly triggered, I’m a lot more sensitive for a couple of weeks.
I had followed a popular science page on Facebook and one day they put up a post about it. The preview picture of that post was of the thing that is best known to cause the reaction in many trypophobics. So, I had the picture thrown in front of my eyes and what has been seen cannot be unseen. So I got an... attack? Reaction? That was strong uneasiness and disgust but still manageable. I was stupid enough to think the damage was done so I can read the article. Not true. They had managed to come up with something A LOT worse (by photo manipulation, while the original well-known trigger was a photo of a natural thing). I had basically a panic attack, and went into a state where I was on the edge of a panic attack for hours. I couldn’t sleep for several nights, I needed to scratch incessantly, to put it shortly was awful. I get mild reactions now writing about it (which I why I can’t mention what the thing was).
I had had a respect for trigger warnings before, but had I not, this experience definitely taught me what it means to get triggered. For other people and other phobias or trauma it can of course be a lot worse. So, what am I trying to say? Firstly, a thing that seems trivial or impossible as a trigger to you may be serious for someone. The brain is WEIRD. Secondly, there is no way anything can include the warnings for everything that may trigger someone, because there is just no way to know. Even the person getting triggered maybe doesn’t know in advance. So you can’t be perfect. However you can and should try!
So what can we do? Firstly, try and be predictable. There can be monsters in your horror comic, however don’t put monsters into the Highschool Musical (without warning that is). Secondly, try and give a general idea of the content up front. Thirdly, if someone tells you what triggers them, please respect that. It doesn’t mean you can’t include / present / show etc that thing, but give the person the choice about whether they can take it or not. The warning is specifically meant as a tool to be able to cover the subject or issue in a way that is safe for everyone, and not as a label of “you should not be dealing with this thing because it may trigger someone”.
Furthermore, do not use a known trigger for “fun” like many of the articles about trypophobia do. That is ducking rude.
As with anything, there probably are people who try to use a concept for their own advantage, or otherwise misuse it. Such as some students demanding that an issue is not covered in a course because they don’t like it, but call it getting triggered to make it sound serious. The fact that such people exist, doesn’t render the concept and the need for the warnings null and void. Also it doesn’t give people (in this case, the professors) a free pass to ignore legitimate needs of warnings.
Oh and on the subject of “real life doesn’t have trigger warnings”. Indeed. I think this is a reason for the warnings p, not against them. People are already forced to deal with their issues in situations where it’s impossible to get the warning (such as encountering a spider in nature, or driving past a stack of pipes). They already have to strain themselves with the phobia/ trauma / issue. Why should you force them to strain even more?
Post by: thorny on April 03, 2021, 04:21:27 PM
Second: in addition to being glad to get information, I think that this (quoted below) is in particular a really good point.
Oh and on the subject of “real life doesn’t have trigger warnings”. Indeed. I think this is a reason for the warnings p, not against them. People are already forced to deal with their issues in situations where it’s impossible to get the warning (such as encountering a spider in nature, or driving past a stack of pipes). They already have to strain themselves with the phobia/ trauma / issue. Why should you force them to strain even more?
Post by: Sc0ut on April 03, 2021, 04:58:08 PM
Post by: Vulpes on April 03, 2021, 05:47:50 PM
I suspect that the trigger warning requests that academics grouse about are the manipulative ones, the people (unfortunately) trying to game the system. The term "trigger warning" has sort of become triggering to academics! That's a joke, but only partly - bad faith requests have turned it into a bad word in academia, to the detriment of those with real issues. If someone asks for a sensible accomodation, for a legitimate reason, I'd be surprised if they were turned down - indeed, I imagine this happens all the time, and I don't hear about it because people only complain about the outrageous ones.
I won't further hijack this thread, only say that the objections to unnecessary trigger warnings stem not so much from ego as from a concern for the academic integrity of a course, which the student making the request probably doesn't understand, precisely because they are a student, i.e. they haven't immersed themselves in the field. A biology course without evolution has lost all meaning; an American history course without mention of slavery is useless.
Jitter, I've heard of your phobia, and it did strike me as cruel that every website that described it had prominent photos of triggering objects. Thank-you for taking on the mental work of describing it, I hope it only caused you transitory discomfort! In the last decade or so, I suddenly developed a totally irrational fear of heights, only on man-made structures. It's stupid and frustrating, so I know what you mean about the helplessness of not being able to control your response.
Post by: Sc0ut on April 03, 2021, 06:43:55 PM
As for the ego aspect, you brought it up yourself.
Post by: PyroDesu on April 03, 2021, 07:06:09 PM
I'm fairly certain it's not requests for content warnings that are the problem per se, so much as (the possibility of) such warnings being used as the basis for unreasonable requests to modify the curriculum for an individual.
Accommodations are all well and good, but they must be reasonable. In my experience as a student who's used the services of my university's disability office, there's a not insignificant amount of discussion that goes on between the coordinators, student, and professor to find reasonable accommodations, but none have involved alteration to the basic course material. The closest I've personally encountered was a professor willing to modify the terms of presentations - such that they were given to him only, instead of in front of a class - to accommodate severe social anxiety.
It should also be noted that often disability services will coordinate with the counseling services on such matters - especially if there is not a pre-existing diagnosis.
Post by: Haiz on April 03, 2021, 08:35:57 PM
content warnings are a very cool and multifaceted topic.
i have Triggers. some of them cause awful intrusive thoughts that are really hard to get rid of and make my body feel unsafe to inhabit. some remind me of recently acquired trauma and cause me to spiral or feel ill. none of these effects will like, put me out of commission or anything, but it's deeply unpleasant and can really distract me from Enjoying a thing or Working on something. it feels like a brain allergy. like, sure, i CAN drink this allegorical milk, but my allegorical guts WILL hate me for it.
many people have allergies and dietary needs and food in stores have to have ingredient lists on packages. in norway it's also required to inform about allergens on foods in cafés, etc. GOOD AND USEFUL THING FOR MANY!!
(i will say though, that while i don't personally have any direct allergies, im super sensitive to spicy food. i want to say i REALLY appreciate it when spicy food is marked as spicy. i seem to have a curse that no matter how much i try to purposefully avoid spicy food, if there's unmarked spicy food i will somehow pick that food. sometimes people will say, oh that's not very spicy to me, but MY taste buds have already been scorched to oblivion. thanks!)
my triggers are sometimes vague, uncommon, or overly specific. i don't usually expect warnings for those, and will often put in some effort to ask friends who have watched/read things if they think i could handle it. i often have friends message me like "hey, the next episode of Thing You Watch has an instance of Thing You Don't Handle Well and i wanted to let you know" and it always helps me so much to just have that heads up. i don't require my friends to do this or expect them to do this work for me, but it's very nice to have that support network. there's also sites like 'does the dog die' that is documenting various triggers in movies so that people have ways of checking beforehand if they need to.
i'm also getting pretty experienced at realizing when i need to put a series down because it just feels too bad for my brain. sometimes i can get back to it later, and sometimes i can't.
one of the more common triggers i have is gory stuff. how well i handle it varies. SSSS is fine to me, but i also know what to expect from it. taking an online course about driving and suddenly being confronted with pictures of a lifeless hand lying in a pool of blood... less great.
so i studied art history. at my university in norway, there were NO discussions about trigger warnings or any kind of accommodations, or at least not at the faculty i was at. i still very clearly remember a lecture from a class on political caricature art where there were many many powerpoint slides with artworks of beheadings and depictions of cannibalism. no warnings. no way to know this was going to happen that day. NOT A GOOD TIME FOR HAIZ. thank you french revolution propaganda i would very much rather not!!!
conversely, i also studied a semester in canada. the archaeology 101 prof gave us heads up before showing us slides with bog mummies in them. just a little "this might be gross to look at, so if you need to look away, do it now". it was that easy!!!!!
i think a lot can be said for common courtesy, and also creating a space for accomodation and letting students tell you privately if they have any particular triggers. of course there are some that cannot be avoided, but there are ways to communicate and find workarounds.
another thing i want to bring up is like... if you go to ao3 and find works labeled "creator chose not to use content warnings" or go to a tumblr blog that says "nothing on this blog will be tagged" in its bio, those in themself are a form of trigger warnings. that's a way of letting you know to proceed with caution if at all. it's still useful! it's not always accessible for someone to tag every trigger, or sometimes the themes of a story will be too vague to pin down with the big warnings. it still gives me a way to take responsibility for my own media consumption. other things i've seen are like "click here for a list of triggers in this media i made", so that people who don't want spoilers and don't fear no triggers can move bravely on, and people like me who gotta take care of their squishy brains can arm ourselves.
for lovely people... i want to say that i'm very glad that you've put such a succinct warning at the beginning of this thread. i think that's a very cool and nice solution. i'm also very thankful to my friend who gave me a heads up about the self-flagellation and underhanded digs at personal interpretations of faith.
minna's stance on TWs doesn't surprise me in the least, especially not when her perception of them is, like... the unfortunately not uncommon idea that Trigger Warnings Means Thing Bad. of course someone thinking that won't want to label their own works with it. more than that, it doesn't feel like someone who wrote That Ending or That Afterword would WANT to give a heads up about it. of course i wish she would write a more detailed description about what we can actually expect from this deceptively cutesywutesy comic about soft little bunnies, but i'm again... dissappointed but not surprised. SHRUGS
as a person i believe it can be incredibly important to tell all kinds of stories, including those about difficult and unpleasant topics that can be hard to read. but i also think it's exceedingly important to have boundaries and communication. it's important to have agency and choice. instead of saying the building will never ever burn down, it's important to have a good protocol in case it does. i will enter this building knowing it can be on fire, but i have seen the fire escapes and know where to go if i need them. is this metaphor making any sense it's 2am over here
Post by: Yuuago on April 03, 2021, 10:31:24 PM
for lovely people... (...) minna's stance on TWs doesn't surprise me in the least, especially not when her perception of them is, like... the unfortunately not uncommon idea that Trigger Warnings Means Thing Bad. of course someone thinking that won't want to label their own works with it. more than that, it doesn't feel like someone who wrote That Ending or That Afterword would WANT to give a heads up about it. of course i wish she would write a more detailed description about what we can actually expect from this deceptively cutesywutesy comic about soft little bunnies, but i'm again... dissappointed but not surprised. SHRUGS
I think you hit the nail on the head with that (re: the lack of heads up is deliberate.)
I was thinking today about this - I found myself wondering, if I were the author, and I wanted to describe it in a more detailed way (not even necessarily addressing the issue of warnings), what would I add to the description? Found myself kind of stumped, because my general feelings about the story and the endnotes were pretty negative.
The best I could come up with was to use something like the current description, but also add that it's a religious comic about people finding inspiration from Christianity to get out of a difficult situation.
But that doesn't describe it very well, and it doesn't deal with the matter of the author's notes at the end. I have a lot of difficulty imagining how someone who wrote and felt those notes might describe them even if they wanted to.
How would you all have described it? In this imaginary situation where you were the author and were providing a more detailed description than what's already there, that is.
Post by: catbirds on April 03, 2021, 11:06:15 PM
I was thinking today about this - I found myself wondering, if I were the author, and I wanted to describe it in a more detailed way (not even necessarily addressing the issue of warnings), what would I add to the description? Found myself kind of stumped, because my general feelings about the story and the endnotes were pretty negative.
...
How would you all have described it? In this imaginary situation where you were the author and were providing a more detailed description than what's already there, that is.
The length of the end notes on the bunny comic is actually a pretty rare thing... That meaning, rarely do we get something that so explicitly states the (already quite hamfisted) themes of the actual comic. Pretty much every motivation she consciously acknowledged was listed on there, and any unconscious biases were pretty easily extracted from the dialogue. However, as pretty much everyone blindsided by the comic thought, the summary of the comic that is given to the reader before going to the webpage is pretty abysmal.
Just going off two books I have next to me, it's usually good to mention the cause of the central conflict, or the central conflict itself. So, basically, the best way would be to replace the "until they run into trouble..." part with "until Lavender's wayward daughter turns on society, Marigold's Bible is censored, and Peony's friendship grows strained. Where will they go now to protect what's precious to them?" They all have to leave for their own reasons, but I think this thread fixated a bit on the bible because it caused the most problems with readers. And this way, people pretty much know everything that could trigger them or cause unease. "Trouble" seems too vague, but I feel like at this point I'm starting to sound like an elementary school teacher myself :P Why do I feel like I'm marking someone's comic summary?
Oh, oops, also at the beginning of the summary, many books describe the setting. E.g. the copy of Howl's Moving Castle I have right now says it's set in "the land of Ingary, where seven-league boots and cloaks of invisibility really exist." From this, you gather that it's a fantasy setting with magic. For the bunny comic, since it doesn't really have a name for its setting, I guess you could say "in this world ruled by the great, almighty corporation Alizongle, you can get anything you want, if you are a good bunny who obeys the World Council." Now readers will go in knowing you're probably going to criticize these companies in this fictional society where they're held up like gods and are the moral judges of the world (which is a big part of their role). "Social Credit System" pretty much exclusively brings up images of, well, a social credit system. You don't know what the author will say about it unless you're in her mind somehow :(
Anyway, perhaps we could attach a more detailed summary to the beginning of the thread in case anyone wishes to delve into the story? I mean, we already know Minna herself isn't planning on doing anything else with it.
Post by: Sc0ut on April 04, 2021, 03:29:51 AM
@Sc0ut
I'm fairly certain it's not requests for content warnings that are the problem per se, so much as (the possibility of) such warnings being used as the basis for unreasonable requests to modify the curriculum for an individual.
But we've already covered the fact that for the most part, needing a content warning does not mean the person refuses to engage with the content when it comes to education (though they might when it comes to entertainment) - they just want to be forewarned, so for instance they don't read difficult material when they're already having a terrible day but when they're feeling more on top of their emotions - or to look away when a certain image is shown (that they, again, can look up on their own later if necessary). I am concerned that even in a space where a lot of people explain what content warnings do for them, in obviously good faith, these nebulous examples of extreme bad faith behaviour keep getting brought up. Is it really that common? Does it happen ever? Because all of you who discuss the evil students who want to change curriculums do so from an abstract perspective rather than describing actual happenings you witnessed. So are we discussing a real issue or a theoretical possibility, or maybe one or two isolate examples that are blown out of proportion?
Sorry to keep insisting about this seemingly offtopic point, but to me the default suspicion, if not derision, that some people seem to have towards requests for content warnings feels very relevant in the discussion about the comic - since Minna is clearly one of those people, and it has come up in the comic. For me it's very unpleasant to see her assumptions of bad faith repeated here as well, after so many people took the time to explain the importance of content descriptions to them.
How would you all have described it? In this imaginary situation where you were the author and were providing a more detailed description than what's already there, that is.
I think it's a pointless exercise - the whole point of the comic imo is to shock and upset, and an accurate description would prevent a lot of that. The people I've known whose view on faith and the world was similar to Minna's current one took the outrage they caused others as proof that the world is hopelessly sinful, since the mere word of god offends people, and thought it's a positive to cause these reactions since they may lead someone to be "saved" after all. I think in Minna's case this is also spiced with a desire to have a dig at "politically correct" people who have been "mean" to her about the slur or about representation in the comic, which again is hard to do if the same people will not read the comic because they've had proper warnings ;)
Post by: catbirds on April 04, 2021, 04:20:51 AM
I think it's a pointless exercise - the whole point of the comic imo is to shock and upset, and an accurate description would prevent a lot of that. The people I've known whose view on faith and the world was similar to Minna's current one took the outrage they caused others as proof that the world is hopelessly sinful, since the mere word of god offends people, and thought it's a positive to cause these reactions since they may lead someone to be "saved" after all. I think in Minna's case this is also spiced with a desire to have a dig at "politically correct" people who have been "mean" to her about the slur or about representation in the comic, which again is hard to do if the same people will not read the comic because they've had proper warnings ;)
This is a good point, in which case I think we'd need a much longer warning list at the beginning of this thread. Within the comic, we already have people mocking inclusive pronoun use (albeit with different words), a pretty poor appropriation of real-world discrimination or oppression (the whole "drones coming to take you away to some facility" thing), ALMOST all of the comic's themes (technology as an absolute evil, driving yourself away to some secluded society being the only solution, etc…) and the list goes on. I've been negatively affected by a lot of these ideas before (actually it's an ongoing thing because I can't change some parts of me), so seeing them play out totally seriously while I was reading it was pretty… blehhhh
It's not a trigger list, but a near-comprehensive list of harmful ideas/stereotypes. I'm not sure if there's any way to broadcast to future comic readers that this is what the comic contains, though. Many people came here only AFTER they'd fallen into the trap of an innocent bunny comic, so listing warnings here is a good idea but difficult to put in practice. Plus, I saw it mere hours after it came out, at which point the most vocal minority (or majority?) had already somehow flooded the comment sections with praise. Can't help much there :(
Is it possible that we'll even have to put a warning list for Minna's content and other online presence at this point, too? Her streams also frequently have discussions reflecting these ideas, which I got blindsided by while working on calculus homework or something, so going on her profiles has made me uneasy as of late. Her videos, too, though to a lesser degree because they're somewhat edited. You know how it is, harmful beliefs don't just disappear once the creator turns off her drawing tablet.
(Note: I do think the current warning is good for people who found the comic through the forum, that I will not deny. I only wish we could have nipped it at the bud or something to that effect)
Fortunately, I doubt that this comic will become some classic, dearly beloved children's book. The initial shock did hurt people, but if it gets out into the world (e.g. store shelves), I think people will realize that these ideas are… not it.
Post by: Sc0ut on April 04, 2021, 04:52:40 AM
(Note: I do think the current warning is good for people who found the comic through the forum, that I will not deny. I only wish we could have nipped it at the bud or something to that effect)
Well, to be fair, when you google the comic, the first link you get at the moment is its tvtropes page, where the heavy-handed religious themes are discussed relatively early on. It still won't help the people who click through to it from SSSS but it's about as much as someone who isn't the author can do about it.
Speaking of "what can someone who isn't the author can do"... I wonder if Hiveworks have any rules about their authors using their webcomics to proselitise, or whether they're thinking of adding one now.
Post by: Róisín on April 04, 2021, 05:52:25 AM
For 40 plus years I was, among other things, a lecturer in botany. My particular area was largely field botany. And I did encounter a number of cases where students would request me to take anything that touched on the ‘heretical and false theory of evolution’ out of my lectures because it offended them and ‘after all it is only a theory and not the Proven Word of the Lord’. Fortunately my Dean was on my side in wishing to retain the science in my subject. I would probably have retained it anyway, even if it cost me my job, but fortunately I was able to continue talking about how one plant family might evolve into another.
Post by: Sc0ut on April 04, 2021, 06:11:04 AM
Quite apart from those who think that the ex-soldier with PTSD asking for warnings about gratuitous violence or the rape survivor requesting warnings for extreme sexual violence are just being precious snowflakes, I have encountered in the real world a few nasty examples.
For 40 plus years I was, among other things, a lecturer in botany. My particular area was largely field botany. And I did encounter a number of cases where students would request me to take anything that touched on the ‘heretical and false theory of evolution’ out of my lectures because it offended them and ‘after all it is only a theory and not the Proven Word of the Lord’. Fortunately my Dean was on my side in wishing to retain the science in my subject. I would probably have retained it anyway, even if it cost me my job, but fortunately I was able to continue talking about how one plant family might evolve into another.
I'm afraid I don't really see the connection to the discussion about content warnings, though - we're now outside the realm of "involuntary physical reactions to certain types of content" and in the realm of moral objections to the course material. I think conflating the two only helps to muddy the discussion - and this is in fact one of the tactics used by people who discredit the need for content warnings. They are imo two very different topics that should be treated separately.
Post by: Maglor on April 04, 2021, 06:29:25 AM
Post by: Róisín on April 04, 2021, 06:32:10 AM
Post by: Sc0ut on April 04, 2021, 06:58:52 AM
Jitter, trypophobia actually have a pretty solid reason. It's just a genetic memory of our specie, warning us about bees. Back in a days bees were a huge problem, and so everything that looks like a bee hive still looks dangerous to a lot of us.
Funny enough, for me honeycombs are some of the few organic clusters of holes that don't trigger my trypophobia - precisely because they're so geometrical that they almost look manmade, and the holes not being circular also helps. Though maybe having positive associations and familiarity with bees from childhood also influences it (my grandpa used to keep bees for a while and he let me get very involved in it). Some wasp nests do mildly trigger it however, probably because they are not built on frames like honeycombs and are more irregular. There are however many other natural things that are not bee-related at all that give me a much worse reaction.
Post by: JoB on April 04, 2021, 08:53:41 AM
I wonder if Hiveworks have any rules about their authors using their webcomics to proselitise, or whether they're thinking of adding one now.I'd be surprised if Hiveworks' terms and conditions would allow them to outright tell authors to do something or not, short of the limits of U.S. legalese, of course.
I'm willing to bet that they have a couple words or two about how to (rather not) alienate the readership-slash-future-merch-buyers, nonetheless ...
Post by: Vulpes on April 04, 2021, 09:24:43 AM
They are indeed two different topics, but often the people who pull the kind of stunt I was talking about present their objection as being hurt/offended/even physically distressed by being confronted with what I would think of as basic scientific facts. But I do understand what you mean, and I do understand the difference between that type, whom I regard as acting in bad faith to get their way, and for example the people who have survived horrors and don’t want to look at the things they survived again if they have a choice in the matter.
@Sc0ut, I think Róisín has explained the problem way better than I've managed. These are two different things, but they get conflated, to the detriment of all. PyroDesu also points out the availability of accomodations services, who will, for free, help students navigate legitimate barriers. When a student comes to me with their sheet from the accomodations office, I work with them, no questions asked. But it's always in the context of helping the student meet the standard of the curriculum, not lowering the bar. The problems crop up outside this process.
Post by: thorny on April 04, 2021, 10:15:07 AM
Post by: Róisín on April 04, 2021, 10:33:08 AM
Post by: thorny on April 04, 2021, 11:34:41 AM
The people who don't want evolution taught in the particular courses they (or their children) are taking don't just want to avoid it for themselves. Their problem with it isn't that they know X happens but that (possibly, though not necessarily, because X has happened/frequently happens to them) they don't want to read/hear about it, either unexpectedly or in some cases not at all. The people objecting to teaching evolution generally seem to think that evolution doesn't happen; that it's Wrong and Should Not Be Taught At All.
That might throw some light on indignant reactions to people wanting content warning for proselytizing. They may not be perceiving 'you've got your religion and that's fine but I don't want you imposing it on me.' They may be reading/hearing 'your religion is Wrong and Should Not Be Taught At All.' Because that's what they mean when they object to reading/hearing something; so they can't imagine that others may mean something else by it.
Note the occasional person who came into this thread and, before I quit reading it and maybe after, the Discus thread saying 'but all religions teach that they've got The Only Right Way and think that everyone else should convert to it.' That isn't anywhere remotely near true -- but if that's the only framework somebody's got in their mind, that's the assumption they make.
(A further thought: Some other objections, of course, are to content that people think isn't true; objections to spreading clearly false conspiracy theories, for instance, and/or easily debunked 'news' items; or to, for instance, teaching that enslaved people were generally content or even better off being enslaved. But I don't think that's what's generally being discussed right now in terms of 'trigger/content warnings'.)
Post by: Tarnagh on April 04, 2021, 11:49:13 AM
I'm afraid I don't really see the connection to the discussion about content warnings, though - we're now outside the realm of "involuntary physical reactions to certain types of content" and in the realm of moral objections to the course material. I think conflating the two only helps to muddy the discussion - and this is in fact one of the tactics used by people who discredit the need for content warnings. They are imo two very different topics that should be treated separately.
They are indeed two different topics, but often the people who pull the kind of stunt I was talking about present their objection as being hurt/offended/even physically distressed by being confronted with what I would think of as basic scientific facts. But I do understand what you mean, and I do understand the difference between that type, whom I regard as acting in bad faith to get their way, and for example the people who have survived horrors and don’t want to look at the things they survived again if they have a choice in the matter.
I see these as being two sides of the same coin (for lack of a better descriptor).
The same people who refuse to put content warnings on things like LP are (generally speaking) the same sort who have no problem trying to force their censure (because of their beliefs) on everyone else. Scientific facts are a "trigger" for them and they've got no problem trying (and sometimes succeeding) in silencing those voices not just for themselves but for everyone else around them. It absolutely IS a stunt, one designed to exert their own influence to "prove" that their willful ignorance is just as viable an option as science. This is one side of the coin, these attempts to silence sound logic and scientific progress, weaponizing the legitimate tools of "trigger" or "content" warnings.
The flip side of that coin is the fact that they consider their faith MORE viable than science, and anyone who would be hurt or "triggered" by something like LP and the commentary afterward are the people who need to hear the message the most, from the point of view of the faithful. "Does this message hurt you? GOOD! You wouldn't be so hurt if you'd submit yourself to the Lord and accept his teachings!"
Post by: thorny on April 04, 2021, 11:56:25 AM
the unfortunately not uncommon idea that Trigger Warnings Means Thing Bad
Coming back after a bit of re-reading to note that Haiz was ahead of me on this.
Post by: esedege on April 05, 2021, 08:56:13 AM
I like to read the webcomic Lore Olympus. It's a modern take on the Persephone & Hades relationship. It sometimes uses a foreword, a succinct warning in a 'be careful, hic sunt dracones' kind of way that goes straight to the point.
Spoiler: show
The other example is the anime Made in Abyss, based on a manga of the same name I didn't know existed. So there I was, watching what seemed to be a lovely girl that lives in a Ghibli-ish world, who goes on an adventure trying to decipher what's going on at the bottom of said abyss, accompanied by her friend, a cute robot boy.
Spoiler: show
So I think the author of Lore Olympus is in the right by putting those content warnings when needed even though the story flowed there naturally, and I think Made in Abyss would lose its impact by having one.
You could think that Made in Abyss and Lovely People are similar in a way, as both of them hide their true nature to shock their audiences, but at least trailers for MiA weren't misguiding (I don't watch trailers as they usually spoil the climax*), and its international certifications give straight away that something is amiss in that Arcadian world.
Spoiler: show
What did we get for LP beforehand? An almost throwaway mention of religion, as if a background filling/secondary theme (which even with my background I'm not against by default). People shocked and disgruntled by MiA (a friend of mine, for instance) had extra info available beforehand (certifications, trailers, spoiler-free reviews), LP had none. Even more so, LP cannot be considered in a vacuum, it is engrained in Minna's work –so much so as to be placed by her as an appendix to SSSS–, a work which had had nothing to do with LP themes till then. I've come to think LP does not need a content warning as much as it needs an honest summary, or at least that she had made extra content available that would give away its true intention even if subtly.
BTW, I am not –I AM NOT– comparing MiA and LP themes themselves, but their 'let's hide our real themes to shock' approach, trying to make sense of why LP feels so deceitful to the reader. In one case, I was blindsided because I wanted to, I chose to. And that's not LP.
———
* Edited out certain movie based on a certain book based on a certain author whom I’ve since found out is a homophobic pile of bull… droppings.
Post by: Raaffiie on April 05, 2021, 10:25:53 AM
Spoiler: show
Post by: thorny on April 05, 2021, 11:11:42 AM
What did we get for LP beforehand? An almost throwaway mention of religion, as if a background filling/secondary theme (which even with my background I'm not against by default).
For one thing, those who first came to it didn't get even that beforehand; that description didn't go up for, IIRC, a couple of days.
And even more to the point: not only is it an almost throwaway mention, but it's entirely misleading, because its mention that one lead character is Christian strongly implies that other lead characters aren't, and therefore implies that the comic's viewpoint characters are intentionally religiously diverse. There's no way that I, at least, would have taken the description Minna put up there as meaning 'this is a comic written solely from and about a Christian viewpoint'.
ETA: and, about the spoiler/warning business: yes, that's an issue, especially if warnings aren't done well. But just as an X-rating on a movie doesn't tell you who's going to have sex with whom or exactly how, a content warning doesn't have to give details about who dies, or who converts to what, or whichever. And people reading detective stories know just from the fact that they're in that genre that at least one person very likely dies in them; which doesn't, generally, seem to ruin the suspense -- sometimes it increases it.
I'm not sure that I do uphold the author's right to hit readers over the head hard with no warning, not even a genre warning. The strong implication of 'cute bunny comic' is 'this is suitable for anyone, including little kids and the easily bruised'. An intention to bruise people seems to me to require some level of consent -- you don't invite people to a sex party by telling them it's your six year old's birthday party, even if you do really think it would be good for them to loosen up.
I do rather like the suggestion made by somebody earlier in this thread, at least for online works: 'click here if you want to get content warnings'. People who really absolutely hate spoilers can just not click.
Post by: esedege on April 05, 2021, 06:14:36 PM
For one thing, those who first came to it didn't get even that beforehand; that description didn't go up for, IIRC, a couple of days.
And even more to the point: not only is it an almost throwaway mention, but it's entirely misleading, because its mention that one lead character is Christian strongly implies that other lead characters aren't, and therefore implies that the comic's viewpoint characters are intentionally religiously diverse. There's no way that I, at least, would have taken the description Minna put up there as meaning 'this is a comic written solely from and about a Christian viewpoint'.
Even worse >:( (as I said before, I came back after a week and found the aftermath of the LP debut, so I had guessed that description was attached to it from the start). And I agree with you that specifying a character is Christian means, by default, that the others aren't, so it carries an extra pinch of mischievousness. Then again, in my experience, when a real religion appears in a would-be fable, proselytism is just around the corner (I wouldn't have guessed it would be like that nor in a million years tho). "But maybe Minna is different, she's being kinda unique all along…"
Hi, Raaffiie, I'd like to comment on your off-topic spoiler, so here's mine. ;)
Spoiler: show
I do rather like the suggestion made by somebody earlier in this thread, at least for online works: 'click here if you want to get content warnings'. People who really absolutely hate spoilers can just not click.I must have missed that suggestion, because I totally endorse it (and, in general, the whole of your post too.)
Post by: Marvin on April 06, 2021, 05:18:49 AM
Funny enough, for me honeycombs are some of the few organic clusters of holes that don't trigger my trypophobia - precisely because they're so geometrical that they almost look manmade, and the holes not being circular also helps. Though maybe having positive associations and familiarity with bees from childhood also influences it (my grandpa used to keep bees for a while and he let me get very involved in it). Some wasp nests do mildly trigger it however, probably because they are not built on frames like honeycombs and are more irregular. There are however many other natural things that are not bee-related at all that give me a much worse reaction.
Hm, I always imagined that trypophobia has more to do with parasitic diseases. I'm not trypophobic myself, but there are example images the trigger a nauseating response, and the basic thought is: "EEEEW PARASITES!"
Post by: Sc0ut on April 06, 2021, 07:32:59 AM
Hm, I always imagined that trypophobia has more to do with parasitic diseases. I'm not trypophobic myself, but there are example images the trigger a nauseating response, and the basic thought is: "EEEEW PARASITES!"
That is my theory as well. I'll refrain from detailing for the sake of Jitter and also to let the thread stay on topic ;D
Post by: Maple on April 06, 2021, 07:58:27 AM
For one thing, those who first came to it didn't get even that beforehand; that description didn't go up for, IIRC, a couple of days.
And even more to the point: not only is it an almost throwaway mention, but it's entirely misleading, because its mention that one lead character is Christian strongly implies that other lead characters aren't, and therefore implies that the comic's viewpoint characters are intentionally religiously diverse. There's no way that I, at least, would have taken the description Minna put up there as meaning 'this is a comic written solely from and about a Christian viewpoint'.
ETA: and, about the spoiler/warning business: yes, that's an issue, especially if warnings aren't done well. But just as an X-rating on a movie doesn't tell you who's going to have sex with whom or exactly how, a content warning doesn't have to give details about who dies, or who converts to what, or whichever. And people reading detective stories know just from the fact that they're in that genre that at least one person very likely dies in them; which doesn't, generally, seem to ruin the suspense -- sometimes it increases it.
That's an interesting point too. By just posting the genre of the comic (Christian...something. Christian modern fiction with bunnies?) that in of itself would have been enough to tell those who don't want to read Christian stuff "hey, this is a Christian story." And that's a really basic thing! Like, usually the first descriptor you use for a story is its genre. "Harry Potter is a magical fantasy story set at a modern day boarding school for wizards and witches." "Star Wars is a science fiction series about a young man learning to become a skilled fighter so he can save the galaxy." That kind of thing. We don't even see those as content warnings, they're just a description of the story to help people find something they might like. Someone in to historical fiction isn't going to look at Star Wars and say "boy I want to watch that!"
Likewise, try this: "Lovely People is a Christian story about faith, love, and family bonds as three young women face the tough choice of 'follow the crowd' or 'stand up for what they believe in'." Boom, summary right there that doesn't spoil the story and still tells you what you need to know. People who don't want to read Christian stories know to avoid it, people who like Christian stories (or who like more personalized stories about individuals struggling to do what they feel is right) will know to dive right in and read it.
Leaving it out purely as a 'gotcha' to trick people into reading it is kind of rude. And I wish Minna would be more open to crit because I think she would benefit from reading this talk on nuance here.
Post by: Raaffiie on April 06, 2021, 09:07:21 AM
Spoiler: show
Post by: Haiz on April 06, 2021, 09:37:57 AM
I do rather like the suggestion made by somebody earlier in this thread, at least for online works: 'click here if you want to get content warnings'. People who really absolutely hate spoilers can just not click.t'was i! *does a hair flip*
as far as i can tell, it's already a pretty common thing to do, like gigi digi did for her comic "lady of the shard". i don't even read that much fanfic but i admire the content warning culture on ao3 - sometimes people will write "look at end notes for specific warnings" in the front notes of a chapter, in addition to all the tagging systems in place.
i also agree that vague warnings are often less than helpful, sometimes even misleading. the worst offender i can think of was a show that started with a very clear warning of "this episode portrays struggles with mental health" which, to me, can mean things like OCD symptoms, anxiety attacks, dissociation, and so on. turns out the episode portrayed a character committing suicide, which i did not see coming at ALL. it left me kinda dazed, like "oh so that's what they meant..."
it's okay to be specific, jeez!
(though i still think "this blog does not tag triggers" is a very fair thing to have on a personal tumblr blog, for example. if you're writing professional articles intended to be read by a wide audience, that's another thing.)
re: clarifying the genre of lovely people, i think that could help a lot, but i also think there's a disconnect here - namely that a lot of the contents that really upset people are things the author do not see as Upsetting Things. again, this could be my religious illiteracy and almost no experience with christian media, but i wouldn't have expected a christian story about standing for what you believe in to belittle my identity and throw me under the bus, y'know? it's like, trying to explain to a conservative transphobe why misgendering me is hurtful, but to them *i'm* acting hurtful for wanting them to restrict their precious freedom of speech. or asking a youtuber who posts a public meltdown to put in warnings with timestamps.
like... we are trying to figure out how a story that is actively mocking the concept of trigger warnings can be best labeled by the author who is doing the mocking. i think it's more fruitful to think of what the community can do to accomodate members, than trying to change the mind of someone who doesn't want to listen.
Post by: Raaffiie on April 06, 2021, 10:11:04 AM
Post by: Haiz on April 06, 2021, 10:26:15 AM
Haiz, you're absolutely right in that the discussions about content warnings/genre and trigger warnings are two different discussions, and that the discussion about trigger warnings in the community is the more relevant one here. I've added another spoiler to my post in order to keep the thread on-topic.
hey, i think it's a cool and useful discussion! i'm not trying to backseat mod anything. a lot of the discussions here cover topics like creator/audience relationships, portrayals of religion, seeking community and validation. it's why i keep coming back.
just wanted to throw in another two cents about remembering what is within our control and what isn't. take some stock of the boundaries present. it's interesting to see what we could've done if WE had been the ones to write lovely people, what would have been the most thoughtful and compassionate way to present this comic or its topics... but if we are already on that track of thinking, we wouldn't write lovely people at all.
Post by: Raaffiie on April 06, 2021, 10:37:59 AM
hey, i think it's a cool and useful discussion! i'm not trying to backseat mod anything. a lot of the discussions here cover topics like creator/audience relationships, portrayals of religion, seeking community and validation. it's why i keep coming back.
It's cool, I didn't feel like you were :). I think both discussions are worth having, but I also think it's important to keep one topic from eclipsing another, especially in a linear forum format like this.
EDIT: And to say one more thing about the topics at hand: I don't think an accurate genre description alone would have prevented people from being hurt by the comic, and it wouldn't change what the afterword conveyed. It would have shown good will, though, which I think gives some more insight into this whole mess of a situation. But yeah, in terms of actually accommodating future readers, I don't think there's much we can do except make an effort ourselves to make this forum a welcoming place.
Post by: Umbral Reaver on April 07, 2021, 09:07:23 AM
Such as:
(This work has content warnings - click here to view them)
And if you do, it opens a box with something like:
(Content warning for Politics, Religion - click here for detailed warnings)
As before, at any point you can skip to the work itself. But if you want, you can open up the second box for specifics.
Post by: viola on April 07, 2021, 11:01:08 AM
I think a method that would work (for anything, not just this), would be to have a couple of levels of content warnings that can be opened.
Such as:
(This work has content warnings - click here to view them)
And if you do, it opens a box with something like:
(Content warning for Politics, Religion - click here for detailed warnings)
As before, at any point you can skip to the work itself. But if you want, you can open up the second box for specifics.
Imdb has something like this. They have a "parents guide" section and you can see by section the content warnings, and then they have major spoilers hidden within that section, so you can futher choose to see those as well. It says "parents" but it works well for anyone. I've used it to check for horribly graphic injuries so I don't have to look when they happen.
They don't have a specific section for religion/politics but they do have "frightening and intense scenes" where they sometimes put contraversial stuff. It's not everything but it's pretty comprehensive and gets most of the big stuff.
Here is the page for Endgame if you want to check it out. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4154796/parentalguide?ref_=tt_stry_pg)
Post by: Umbral Reaver on April 07, 2021, 12:19:43 PM
Here is the page for Endgame if you want to check it out. (http://"https://m.imdb.com/title/tt4154796/parentalguide?ref_=m_tt_stry_pg")
Broken link. :(
Post by: Miragia on April 07, 2021, 12:43:02 PM
just wanted to throw in another two cents about remembering what is within our control and what isn't. take some stock of the boundaries present. it's interesting to see what we could've done if WE had been the ones to write lovely people, what would have been the most thoughtful and compassionate way to present this comic or its topics... but if we are already on that track of thinking, we wouldn't write lovely people at all.
Well, I'm finding the topic useful. Since I'm writing a story of my own that includes some Christian elements, it's nice to know various means by which people who don't enjoy that think hurtful situations can be avoided.
I am considering to ask for advice about other topics that are tricky to deal with, but this thread might not be the place for that... Still, can I ask if somewhere in this forum would be a good place to do so, or would bringing up difficult questions just make people upset...?
Unrelated rant about myself below, includes mention of God.
Spoiler: show
Post by: Haiz on April 07, 2021, 01:03:39 PM
Well, I'm finding the topic useful. Since I'm writing a story of my own that includes some Christian elements, it's nice to know various means by which people who don't enjoy that think hurtful situations can be avoided.Even if I don't plan on publishing it since I don't write for an audience as much as for the story's own sake, and this story and its characters don't care about being known. But just in case I ever change my mind and do let it out into the world,the perspectives given here are good knowledge to have. ^^
I am considering to ask for advice about other topics that are tricky to deal with, but this thread might not be the place for that... Still, can I ask if somewhere in this forum would be a good place to do so, or would bringing up difficult questions just make people upset...?
Unrelated rant about myself below, includes mention of God.Spoiler: show
what i meant by that quote you're quoting, is this: if you want to write a sincere story with christian themes that actually empower people, where you as an author actually care about your audience and their wellbeing, you would end up writing a different story than lovely people. you would probably write something less shallow than "phones bad god good" and probably wouldn't make fun of trigger warnings or people medicating for mental illnesses. at least i think so. i don't think stories with religious themes have to be like that.
i was genuinely surprised to find out brandon sanderson, author of the stormlight archive, was mormon - just from the way he writes people with many different approaches to religion and faith, even solid discussions about atheism. i love this series, and the religious diversity and focus is actually one of the reasons why. it feels real and refreshing and like an important part of the characters.
as a reply to the spoilered part:
Spoiler: show
Post by: JoB on April 07, 2021, 02:24:58 PM
Broken link. :(Unb0rken by guesswork (https://m.imdb.com/title/tt4154796/parentalguide?ref_=m_tt_stry_pg)
Post by: Umbral Reaver on April 07, 2021, 03:42:29 PM
Unb0rken by guesswork (https://m.imdb.com/title/tt4154796/parentalguide?ref_=m_tt_stry_pg)Thank you.
Post by: Miragia on April 07, 2021, 04:51:07 PM
what i meant by that quote you're quoting, is this: if you want to write a sincere story with christian themes that actually empower people, where you as an author actually care about your audience and their wellbeing, you would end up writing a different story than lovely people. you would probably write something less shallow than "phones bad god good" and probably wouldn't make fun of trigger warnings or people medicating for mental illnesses. at least i think so. i don't think stories with religious themes have to be like that.
i was genuinely surprised to find out brandon sanderson, author of the stormlight archive, was mormon - just from the way he writes people with many different approaches to religion and faith, even solid discussions about atheism. i love this series, and the religious diversity and focus is actually one of the reasons why. it feels real and refreshing and like an important part of the characters.
as a reply to the spoilered part:Spoiler: show
Ah, sorry. I know what you meant, just wanted to add that I think talking about how you would improve Lovely People, even if it is a moot point in itself, could still be useful. At least to me it is, since it brings up perspectives and solutions that are new to me. ^^
Writing a series with so many perspectives must have taken a tremendous amount of research and great insight into the human mind. That's really impressive~
Answer below to what looks like concerns about my mental health, contains lots of Christian thoughts.
Spoiler: show
Post by: viola on April 07, 2021, 05:23:44 PM
Broken link. :(
Unb0rken by guesswork (https://m.imdb.com/title/tt4154796/parentalguide?ref_=m_tt_stry_pg)
Sorry about that! And thanks @JoB! I fixed the link in my post too.
Post by: Haiz on April 07, 2021, 06:13:32 PM
Answer below to what looks like concerns about my mental health, contains lots of Christian thoughts.Spoiler: show
Spoiler: show
Post by: thorny on April 07, 2021, 06:20:14 PM
Spoiler: show
Very rapidly:
Not me, anyway. What I want the offender to feel is 'oh! now I understand! and you're right!'
Post by: Gwenno on April 07, 2021, 06:31:57 PM
I am considering to ask for advice about other topics that are tricky to deal with, but this thread might not be the place for that... Still, can I ask if somewhere in this forum would be a good place to do so, or would bringing up difficult questions just make people upset...?
I second Haiz' suggestion to try looking at the Comfort Corner (https://ssssforum.com/index.php?topic=384.0) or the Mini Chapel (https://ssssforum.com/index.php?topic=695.0). I'd also add, that if you are looking for something different, it is possible to Request a Topic (https://ssssforum.com/index.php?topic=1154.0) (if it is likely to be a difficult topic that needs some mod overview).
this is probably skirting the realm of off-topicity, but i DO feel like it's relevant to a lot of my feelings about the dreaded Afterword so i'm gonna treat myself to one more replySpoiler: show
You probably don't remember this, but way back when I joined the forum as a newbie artist, you told me off rather firmly for belittling myself and my work when presenting it in a similar way ;D (you have obviously grown as a person and broadened your experience and understanding in this time, as I can see from your message here, but there's a lot of the same feeling too). Anyway, it was the first time anyone had told me to Not Do That, and it did help me realise how toxic that mentality was and eventually put a stop to it, so many thanks :)) It might be slightly off-topic, but it's a very good message and deserves sharing.
Post by: ChascaKhuno on April 07, 2021, 07:21:34 PM
Now, after finally building up the courage and looking at the latest updates, as well as the comment section, I feel the same discomfort and it makes it very difficult to appreciate SSSS as I did before. Ironically, in her denouncement of cancel culture, Minna seems to have engaged in it herself by forcefully muting the criticism.
Lastly, as others have mentioned, I fear that she will fall into conspiracy territory. Sorry if this has already been discussed, I only read ~6 pages into the thread, but the combination of evangelicalism (promoting isolation from modern society) and fear-mongering over passports could easily lead Minna down the conspiracy nut rabbit hole.
Post by: ChascaKhuno on April 07, 2021, 07:27:38 PM
Post by: Miragia on April 08, 2021, 05:03:04 PM
this is probably skirting the realm of off-topicity, but i DO feel like it's relevant to a lot of my feelings about the dreaded Afterword so i'm gonna treat myself to one more replySpoiler: show
Hmm, you may be right. ^^' Sorry, I don't mean to lead things off-topic. I still want to answer those questions though... Um, guess I'll throw in a thought on the Afterword too?
So, something about the Afterword that saddens me is that it threw such harsh preaching at people indiscriminately. It seems important to Minna to point out that Christianity does include difficult topics such as sin and repentance. That's true. Hiding that would not be right, and although views may differ between Christians, talking about it is good. For those who are ready, or claim to be. It shouldn't be thrown in the face of people who are still budding their faith, people who are uncertain if they have a faith, or those don't have one at all. Faith has to be built on trust. And God knows trust is a plant that grows slowly. It can't be forced out of the ground like that.
Anyway... I'm very much impressed by your words. Even if we may not understand each other perfectly, I sense a lot of integrity behind them. I tried my best to explain, but I realize I'm threading on needles with this one... Actually I lost count of how many times I rewrote this trying to avoid potential misunderstandings, but in the end I guess there are no guarantees when we come from such different worlds. ^^'
Spoiler: show
Very rapidly:
Not me, anyway. What I want the offender to feel is 'oh! now I understand! and you're right!'
Oh. Well, in that case I'm happy I was wrong. ^^
Miragia (and anyone else interested) - If you would like to see an example of a Christian comic done well, please give Daughter of the Lillies (https://www.daughterofthelilies.com/) a read. It is a beautiful and engaging comic, covering themes of self-worth, love and redemption (amongst many other things), and was inspired by the author's Christian faith. She occasionally mentions how elements of Christianity influence her story below the page, but always gives you a bit of a warning first, and it never feels preachy (one example that stands out is page 613 (Chapter 6, Page 13) where a character who did a terrible thing in the past is struggling with whether they deserve forgiveness, and she explains below the page how the concept of Grace works in Christianity and why this is important to her). Another Christian-inspired comic done well is Sithrah (https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/sithrah/list?title_no=524&page=1). It is a little bit more heavy-handed with its message near the end, but not to the point of diminishing my enjoyment of it :) (I'd compare it to The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe, which is Very Christian, but still a Christmas favourite of mine every year). While my personal opinion is that Lovely People didn't manage this, it is very possible to create an enjoyable Christian-inspired comic that doesn't proselytize or belittle non-believers.
I second Haiz' suggestion to try looking at the Comfort Corner (https://ssssforum.com/index.php?topic=384.0) or the Mini Chapel (https://ssssforum.com/index.php?topic=695.0). I'd also add, that if you are looking for something different, it is possible to Request a Topic (https://ssssforum.com/index.php?topic=1154.0) (if it is likely to be a difficult topic that needs some mod overview).
Thank you for the suggestions! I might check them out~ For now I'll probably wait a bit with diving into more discussions, but it's nice to know that I could ask when I'm ready for it. ^^
Post by: Haiz on April 09, 2021, 07:28:03 AM
You probably don't remember this, but way back when I joined the forum as a newbie artist, you told me off rather firmly for belittling myself and my work when presenting it in a similar way ;D (you have obviously grown as a person and broadened your experience and understanding in this time, as I can see from your message here, but there's a lot of the same feeling too). Anyway, it was the first time anyone had told me to Not Do That, and it did help me realise how toxic that mentality was and eventually put a stop to it, so many thanks :)) It might be slightly off-topic, but it's a very good message and deserves sharing.
i don't remember this specific instance, but it sure sounds like me! it's honestly heartening to hear about. when i left i was kind of burned out and things were kind of uncomfortable and messy at the time, which has definitely affected how i have thought back on my time here - logging back in for the first time in so long has been a surprisingly positive experience. thank you for reminding me.
Miragia - we're probably just discussing semantics at this point. thank you for explaining your viewpoints a little deeper. you have something that is important to you and that works for you, and i really hope it lets you live your own life the best you can. i wish you well in dealing with challenges and injustices you may face.
not as a reply to anyone, and i apologize again if it's off topic again - i just fundamentally disagree with any life philosophy that largely deals in guilt and shame and encourages people to beat themselves up. it goes for religion, activism, art, any aspect of existing as a person. it's not that i want to dismiss anyone's very real emotions or struggles with self-worth, but i always feel like there's so many things around us that are already trying to push us down, to snap away any feelings we have that make us feel accomplished. even to the point where we ourselves feel obligated to berate ourselves, or as i often experience - if i don't berate myself, many people interpret it as gloating or putting myself up on a pedestal. sorry, but i refuse to hate myself. i just don't think it serves anyone.
on the same day minna published the first link to lovely people on instagram, i had posted a piece of art from my own story about my own characters. it's not a 'story' in the sense that i'm making a serialized version of it, just a collection of characters and a self-indulgent explorations of reclaiming your personhood and finding peace.
Spoiler: show
all just to say that i deeply disagree with the thesis of minna's comic & afterword, no matter how much i respect her making personal decisions for herself and her career.
Post by: Miragia on April 09, 2021, 08:15:11 AM
Miragia - we're probably just discussing semantics at this point. thank you for explaining your viewpoints a little deeper. you have something that is important to you and that works for you, and i really hope it lets you live your own life the best you can. i wish you well in dealing with challenges and injustices you may face.
not as a reply to anyone, and i apologize again if it's off topic again - i just fundamentally disagree with any life philosophy that largely deals in guilt and shame and encourages people to beat themselves up. it goes for religion, activism, art, any aspect of existing as a person. it's not that i want to dismiss anyone's very real emotions or struggles with self-worth, but i always feel like there's so many things around us that are already trying to push us down, to snap away any feelings we have that make us feel accomplished. even to the point where we ourselves feel obligated to berate ourselves, or as i often experience - if i don't berate myself, many people interpret it as gloating or putting myself up on a pedestal. sorry, but i refuse to hate myself. i just don't think it serves anyone.
on the same day minna published the first link to lovely people on instagram, i had posted a piece of art from my own story about my own characters. it's not a 'story' in the sense that i'm making a serialized version of it, just a collection of characters and a self-indulgent explorations of reclaiming your personhood and finding peace.Spoiler: show
all just to say that i deeply disagree with the thesis of minna's comic & afterword, no matter how much i respect her making personal decisions for herself and her career.
The same to you, Haiz. Also, that is a refreshing outlook on life~
Post by: Róisín on April 09, 2021, 11:44:55 AM
I feel that I have an obligation to myself, my family and folk, my gods and the world that gave me life to appreciate such skills as I have, put those skills to their best use, and develop them as I can - cultivate the field I have been given, I suppose. And if those skills can be used in ways that help my world, all the better!
Post by: Dainty Speedwalk on April 09, 2021, 01:46:49 PM
I have nothing against Christianity. Heck, I might even come back to it. But that note... kind of hurt to read. The whole ‘repent now or burn in hell’ thing, the belittling of other beliefs. The attitude of demeaning and belittling yourself in the name of ‘humility.’ It was so aggressive, and honestly? Scary. See, I used to be afraid of God. Like, the Bible uses the word ‘fear’ to mean a sort of awed respect pretty often. But that’s not what I mean. I was terrified of God. That I wasn’t a good enough Christian, that I wasn’t actually saved, that God was angry with me, and I would go to hell. I found it hard to love God, because that wrath felt like it hung over my head, made it feel like I had no other choice. I don’t want to believe in a God like that. That note reminded me of that fear, that horrible feeling that God was angry with me. It reminded me of how people use religion to oppress people, even though she didn’t say anything to that effect. Just... a lot of feelings, blargh. I respect that Minna found a faith, and am happy for her. It’s just that some of those beliefs are really intimidating to me, and from what I’ve gathered a lot of other people as well.
(Semi-related note, has Minna said her opinions on LGBT+ people? I know a lot of Christians are supportive, but this made me worry about that, too, though maybe irrationally.)
Post by: Umbral Reaver on April 09, 2021, 02:14:24 PM
(Semi-related note, has Minna said her opinions on LGBT+ people? I know a lot of Christians are supportive, but this made me worry about that, too, though maybe irrationally.)
I don't have high hopes. The comic itself makes demeaning jokes about gender neutrality in the context of the Bible v.2.
As an aside, the bibles commonly used today are more like... Bible v.20 or something. The Bible is not a static thing. It changed over and over again throughout the ages, by actions of the church to revise it, schisms, translations, retranslations, modernisations.
Did you know that the earliest known record of the Bible condemning homosexuality is a version printed in 1946?
Post by: Tarnagh on April 09, 2021, 07:38:44 PM
Did you know that the earliest known record of the Bible condemning homosexuality is a version printed in 1946?I did not and I would like to know more about this. I would have thought the 1611 KJV would have had that locked down.
Post by: Umbral Reaver on April 09, 2021, 09:16:43 PM
I did not and I would like to know more about this. I would have thought the 1611 KJV would have had that locked down.
First printed in the Revised Standard Version in 1946:
https://um-insight.net/perspectives/has-%E2%80%9Chomosexual%E2%80%9D-always-been-in-the-bible/
Post by: Hedge on April 10, 2021, 08:56:59 AM
Bringing this back to the 'content warning' idea for a moment. (And I will say, I prefer the name 'content warning' to 'trigger warning' because while all trigger warnings are content warnings, not all content warnings are trigger warnings. For example, movie ratings for 'sex' or 'extreme violence' are content warnings, but not trigger warnings.)
I think the talk about "Well real life doesn't warn for content, so I'm not going to warn for my comic" is disingenuous because it misses the entire point: that this is a comic to be read for fun.
Yes, of course real life isn't going to have content warnings before something horrible happens. Tragedy happens with no warning whatsoever sometimes. But a comic isn't real life. Reading a comic is an activity people do for fun. And when people go looking for something to do for fun, they're going to read reviews and summaries to find something they personally want to do.
Here is an example of what I mean: I don't like spiders. I REALLY don't like spiders. In real life if I see a spider I have to call in someone else to take the spider out of my room and move it outside. Or if it's in a public space I quickly move away from it. So when I'm looking for something to do in my free time, I still don't want to see spiders. So if I see a warning of "hey, this page here has lots of pictures of cute little jumping spiders" I say "awesome, good for you, enjoy those pictures. I'm going to go somewhere else, thank you." I don't expect people to jump in and tell me "hey Maple there's a spider in your bedroom", because that's not realistic. But if people post pictures of spiders all over a web page without at least going "there be spiders here" then I get annoyed, because I don't want to spend what little free time I have looking at spiders! I want to do something else!
That's a bit simplistic of an answer, but it's the idea. Entertainment comes with content warnings all the time so people can make a personal judgement of if they want to consume that entertainment. Movie ratings, series summaries, book reviews, that sort of thing. Content warnings are everywhere in entertainment, because entertainment is supposed to be fun and making informed choices on entertainment is important to having that fun.
I just think it misses the mark to go "Real life doesn't have content warnings", because that's not the point. You don't see people saying "Real life doesn't come with ratings, so let's remove ratings from movies."
Just popping back in to say the whole "well real life doesn't have content/trigger warnings" thing is just so bloody irritating because it feels like saying you can't guarantee you'll never be in a car crash so there's no point in driving carefully. Like the fact that you can't always avoid an unpleasant thing isn't a reason not to try and avoid it. Real life has unmarked cliffs but that's not a reason not to put safety warning signs in front of sharp drops. We can't control for every risk but that's not an argument for never trying, particularly when it comes to risks that are under your control.
Post by: Hedge on April 10, 2021, 09:18:04 AM
Funny enough, for me honeycombs are some of the few organic clusters of holes that don't trigger my trypophobia - precisely because they're so geometrical that they almost look manmade, and the holes not being circular also helps. Though maybe having positive associations and familiarity with bees from childhood also influences it (my grandpa used to keep bees for a while and he let me get very involved in it). Some wasp nests do mildly trigger it however, probably because they are not built on frames like honeycombs and are more irregular. There are however many other natural things that are not bee-related at all that give me a much worse reaction.
Yeah I don't think it's bees, our species has always duckin loved bees, early humans, modern hunter gatherers and also chimpanzees go to great lengths to raid wild hives. Honey and humans go together and honeycomb is far more likely to trigger a deep evolutionary yell of joy than disgust. I've always understood it to be like, parasites and disease, I find some images in that category physically uncomfortable to look at and we have a bunch of strong pre-programmed disgust reactions to signs of disease and parasitism.
Post by: Róisín on April 10, 2021, 01:18:56 PM
Post by: thorny on April 10, 2021, 02:51:43 PM
To add to what's been said: real life has lots of content warnings. "Danger, Hard Hat Area, Construction Zone". "Beware of Dog". "No Swimming, Storm Warning". "You Must Be This Tall To Go On This Ride." "Sharp Curve, 20MPH". "Wrong Way, Do Not Enter." "Not Potable Water." I could go on and on and on.
Post by: katiemeredith on April 13, 2021, 05:29:08 PM
After reading this post, I decided to read the author's notes for myself, and it appears that an update has been added:
Quote
*Update April 13th* I'm working on getting a printed version self published! I set up an email newsletter if you want to be updated on that, and to let you know when I start my next comic project: --- https://sssscomic.us20.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=8288b532152d0c2d4b9c5f8ea&id=d104f4c809 (https://sssscomic.us20.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=8288b532152d0c2d4b9c5f8ea&id=d104f4c809) *End update*
The link sends you to a website where you can put your email in and receive news about the upcoming printed version of "Lovely People" and news about her upcoming projects, that she describes as having a "strong Christian slant". She says "if you found 'Lovely People' offensive that one will probably be too". :o
I know that there was speculation as to how Minna's career would change as a result of this comic, so it seems as if she is taking things a bit more Christian-y from here on out (after SSSS).
Personally, it's kind of upsetting, as I really enjoy(ed?) her works up until now. I do agree with previous posters, I think that this work is a reduction/step back from her ability to treat characters as completely gender neutral, something that I rarely see in media. Maybe her "theological studies" will enable her to write nuanced stories about things in a way that does not punish the reader for holding a different spiritual belief.
As a side note, I also think that Minna's explanation for ending CoH was also...bad...and condescending.
Quote
...I'm going to spend my free time doing something more fruitful. It was a fun learning project, but I've decided to stop wasting my time playing video games, and the same goes for making them.I spend a solid amount of time playing video games and they're fun! And objectively not a waste of time! Maybe it's the language, but this was written in a way that implies that anyone who plays or makes games is wasting their time. If copyright/intellectual property wasn't a thing I'd wonder if she would release the code or art for people to mess with on here :/ .
Well...anyway, April Fool's has passed and I don't see this situation changing so drastically that it solves all of the problems created by this comic :-\. I wonder if Minna's sect views webcomics as Bad Media or literature? Probably the latter but...
Post by: thorny on April 13, 2021, 07:27:44 PM
She says "if you found 'Lovely People' offensive that one will probably be too".
That's a content warning of sorts, I suppose, for both 'Lovely People' and the upcoming work; though a pretty snippy one; and I gather it's not on the main comic page?
And I'm not at all sure that she understands that what people found offensive wasn't just that it's Christian.
Post by: catbirds on April 13, 2021, 08:00:07 PM
As a side note, I also think that Minna's explanation for ending CoH was also...bad...and condescending.
I spend a solid amount of time playing video games and they're fun! And objectively not a waste of time! Maybe it's the language, but this was written in a way that implies that anyone who plays or makes games is wasting their time. If copyright/intellectual property wasn't a thing I'd wonder if she would release the code or art for people to mess with on here :/ .
Oh, it seems a lot of people felt this way about the way she put an end to the CoH blog. I didn't check it beforehand because most indie games just aren't really my thing, even if it was for characters I had been attached to at some point :P (I actually thought it was just another one of those stream "slip-ups" where she exposes her horrific viewpoint about [marginalized community] when someone mentions [thing that is happening]... after this discussion and learning about everything that's happened even outside of the streams that I attended, I've more or less realized that there are lots more of those than I'd initially thought.)
It's weird because she does seem to have a conservative stance within the context of video games, if that's even possible. One of the "I liked older games because they were better" sorts of things, which I half agree with because of certain issues around video game archiving that have sprung up due to how ephemeral any game hosted on servers tended to be (see: that PS3 store shutdown thing that's been getting talked about a lot)
The thing is, the way people spend time varies so greatly that I'm sure everyone does something that most other people would scratch their heads at. It's one of those little "human" things that sometimes people appreciate. So I guess what I'm saying is that people are rightly upset at her for the lack of empathy in her statement, even if it is one of the less horrific opinions I've seen from her. It kind of makes me angry at people who said that the bunny comic demonstrated a profound understanding of human nature (these are real words I read) because it and, perhaps, the author clearly don't (sorry for the harsh phrasing).
(She said she'd release a story summary, something just to let us know what it was supposed to be about, by the way. I don't think she wants it complete, ever, though, and I'm pretty ready to accept that that's a mark of her "new" beliefs and part of the string of decisions that she's made.)
The conversation's taken a steep turn away from this and her initial actions to focus on her response to requests to slap on a trigger warning or a better summary, though, which is pretty appropriate considering that's what caused people to unwittingly read... whatever the bunny comic was
The link sends you to a website where you can put your email in and receive news about the upcoming printed version of "Lovely People" and news about her upcoming projects, that she describes as having a "strong Christian slant". She says "if you found 'Lovely People' offensive that one will probably be too". :o
I know that there was speculation as to how Minna's career would change as a result of this comic, so it seems as if she is taking things a bit more Christian-y from here on out (after SSSS).
...
Maybe her "theological studies" will enable her to write nuanced stories about things in a way that does not punish the reader for holding a different spiritual belief.
I'm also hoping, really hoping, that she'll get a more nuanced understanding of people once she writes her next story, but I'm fairly certain she's at least somewhat unchanged in her bigoted views and will continue to be (sorry if you hadn't known this in the past, I had to be spoonfed it too via a few tumblr posts and some google searching). Just... in the past, she viewed her work as mostly allegory-less and apolitical, but now that she's steering fully in the opposite direction... [scootches a bit away from her on the bench]
I'm talking mostly about myself now, but I also disappeared from this forum some time in the past and only just came back not too long ago, under a different account. Weirdly enough, almost like some stupid coincidence, I changed in the totally opposite direction of Minna in that period. I like myself a lot better and sorted out a lot of feelings, got more into video games I couldn't afford as a child... somehow got more honest with my high school friends... Seeing this all happen, I felt like this bunny comic could have turned out so much better somehow if the creator hadn't picked this particular brand of Christianity that demands self-pitying and self-loathing. But part of it has to be driven by your own desire for improvement and willingness to let go of reasons to hate yourself and scorn other people (or to accept that you can love and be loved. By humans, as strange as they are), which, judging by the afterword of the bunny comic, uh I think I can assume did not happen :(
Anyway, I think that got a bit too long and emotional there, oops :P
Post by: katiemeredith on April 13, 2021, 11:32:18 PM
So I guess what I'm saying is that people are rightly upset at her for the lack of empathy in her statement, even if it is one of the less horrific opinions I've seen from her. It kind of makes me angry at people who said that the bunny comic demonstrated a profound understanding of human nature (these are real words I read) because it and, perhaps, the author clearly don't.I think that a lot of the frustration aimed at Minna is justified because there is a clear route in which Minna would have been able to express her emotions and beliefs while also being considerate and less problematic. If she were to have given an appropriate content warning, and was more open minded/less condescending in her author note, the problem would not be so inflated. Instead of saying "video games are a waste of time", she could have simply stated that she was grateful for the experience, but making a game wasn't the best choice for her.
I'm also hoping, really hoping, that she'll get a more nuanced understanding of people once she writes her next story, but I'm fairly certain she's at least somewhat unchanged in her bigoted views and will continue to be (sorry if you hadn't known this in the past, I had to be spoonfed it too via a few tumblr posts and some google searching). Just... in the past, she viewed her work as mostly allegory-less and apolitical, but now that she's steering fully in the opposite direction... [scootches a bit away from her on the bench]I'm aware of the whole Emil situation and I know that she said something problematic about BLM but yeah, I don't believe that these views manifest overnight. Not so related, but Contrapoints has a video about J.K. Rowling's transphobia and gives phenomenal commentary about why people become/stay bigots. I think what Contra says in her video about the origins of bigotry can applied to every bigot ever: Bigotry is reactionary, and is a reaction to fear and uncomfortableness with change or a result of some personal experience. I'm not implying that Minna is a bigot, but many of the more Doomsday-ish Christian sects have a tendency to lean that way.
Weirdly enough, almost like some stupid coincidence, I changed in the totally opposite direction of Minna in that period.I remember in early high school I was totally on this r/Atheism "I am better than you" kick, like Minna described in her Author's note. Instead of channeling this attitude into religion, I took the political/science route, "If you didn't believe in science...then you must be stupid because science is undeniable and literally true soo...". And like...I was probably so annoying (luckily this phase lasted like...3 months). The only thing that made me realize how poor my attitude was was seeing how condescending other smart people were acting towards their "opposition". But to echo what you said, we've all been in spots where one may hold views that are close-minded, or act in an ailenting way, but it is up to us alone to find the desire to improve and grow. It's not that I don't want Minna to be told of her errors, but it does suck that she's making these mistakes and saying questionable things for a considerably large audience (and on the internet, too!).
...
Seeing this all happen, I felt like this bunny comic could have turned out so much better somehow if the creator hadn't picked this particular brand of Christianity that demands self-pitying and self-loathing.
I was raised Catholic, and my distancing from that was fairly boring and peaceful. However, I know a solid deal about Theology and am still in touch with the rhetoric used by problematic and non-problematic Christians alike. I think that the Technocracy Rabbits could have been about taking it upon yourself to overcome the temptations of technology to embrace family and faith. However, the way that Alizongle presents itself is meant to spark fear of the future, something that will cause some Christians to say "Yes!! Fear!! We're Winning With God!! Bad Technology" while everyone else kind of cringes. 'Tis my personal take, anyway.
It is just really sad to see someone that I've/we've looked up to as an artist change in a way that is distressing and damaging.
Post by: Maple on April 14, 2021, 07:59:07 AM
Well...anyway, April Fool's has passed and I don't see this situation changing so drastically that it solves all of the problems created by this comic :-\. I wonder if Minna's sect views webcomics as Bad Media or literature? Probably the latter but...
This is why I'm personally going through and saving all of the pages, just in case something happens. Because that's how it always goes in fundamentalist religions: the religion in question says X, Y, and Z are bad, and the new member stops doing X, Y, and Z. But then they say oh, W is bad as well. And then later V is bad too. And so on and so on until all that's left is religion-approved work, praying, and religious study. They trick people by not showing all of the limits at first, so the person in question gradually cuts away everything that they find enjoyable in their life, up until they have nothing left but fitting in with this new crowd.
For the record, I'm not saying this is going to happen for sure to Minna. I'm saying I grew up in America and I've seen this exact same story play out over and over and over again throughout my entire life, and when you've seen the same story happen a thousand times over you start to recognize the story beats.
Post by: SkyWhalePod on April 14, 2021, 04:21:15 PM
Minna released another vlog today and reiterated what katiemeredith pointed out, that her work from here on out will be Christian-themed, and that 'people who liked SSSS but not Lovely People probably wouldn't like her future work'. As thorny said, this suggests to me that she doesn't fully understand what bothered readers about Lovely People -- or that she does understand and intends to continue evangelizing.
Post by: JoB on April 14, 2021, 05:10:51 PM
I noticed that literally everything on the CoH blog is gone except for the post announcing that video games are a waste of timeHuh what?? I see the newest blog post (http://www.hummingfluff.com/?id=devlog&postin=38), which is exclusively about her changed priorities, and the same paragraph (including typos) inserted atop the previous one (http://www.hummingfluff.com/?id=devlog&postin=37), but the rest - up to and including el numero
Post by: pinkysaxton on April 18, 2021, 07:00:59 PM
Because that's how it always goes in fundamentalist religions: the religion in question says X, Y, and Z are bad, and the new member stops doing X, Y, and Z. But then they say oh, W is bad as well. And then later V is bad too. And so on and so on until all that's left is religion-approved work, praying, and religious study. They trick people by not showing all of the limits at first, so the person in question gradually cuts away everything that they find enjoyable in their life, up until they have nothing left but fitting in with this new crowd.
Off-topic but a good new read for those who are looking to fill a void:
Ella Minno Pea, by Mark Dunn, is a story that criticizes this tendency in religious oligarchies. In this case, they choose to remove letters from the alphabet (with some pretty harsh punishments to those who slip up). It's a (well-written) counterpoint to Lovely People and how a society would realistically move people to accept bad choices from a government.
At this point, any dismissive comment Minna makes about video games or whatever else just shows that she hasn't really changes since being a dismissive atheist. Ultimately, it feels like those handful of kids in high school who were always going on about how everything others liked just sucked. And everyone else just kind of rolled their eyes and knew it was silly of them and mostly performative and self-feeding. Only now she has a platform where others will stop and agree (and remind everyone to pray for us) instead of keep walking to the next class.
Post by: catbirds on April 19, 2021, 01:33:35 AM
Off-topic but a good new read for those who are looking to fill a void:
Ella Minno Pea, by Mark Dunn, is a story that criticizes this tendency in religious oligarchies. In this case, they choose to remove letters from the alphabet (with some pretty harsh punishments to those who slip up). It's a (well-written) counterpoint to Lovely People and how a society would realistically move people to accept bad choices from a government.
Oooh, actually, I searched that up and it seems like a cool read! Something that really gets your mind going (literally, it takes effort to read), although the loss of letters does seem like a pain if you have a reading disability. At least, according to this (does this count as a spoiler?):
Quote from: wikipedia
As letters disappear, the novel becomes more and more phonetically or creatively spelled, and requires more effort to interpret.
Hope someone out there's made an audiobook, if it even works in the format the book is in? I will read it immediately after the book I'm reading right now, thanks for the suggestion! (I really want to read more this summer)
I think there's a thread for books, if you have more suggestions like this!
I haven't been keeping up with this thread much otherwise, it's pretty much wearing my brain down needing to organize thoughts about these things, but I appreciate what discussion has happened :P
Post by: Pippagrey on April 19, 2021, 11:19:26 AM
I didn't even know she had expressed negative views of certain communities/people.
Thanks!
Post by: GlyphGraph on April 19, 2021, 11:37:47 AM
It's actually always amusing to come across the zeal of the fresh convert indulging in the weird oppressor-as-victim fetish that a certain subset of Christians really get into.
I'm actually generally good with putting religious themes in your work, writing about and from your religion, even some proselytizing.
The big problem with Lovely People, from my perspective, is pretty simple - she's built a massive, terrible dystopia, and then written a story that strongly implies the only flaw with it is that it's not (specific-subset-of-)Christian enough. After all, all the characters were fine with it prior to it messing with their own bible. The society only ever works out poorly for the Christians in it, even though there's clearly plenty of space for non-Christian suffering. The overall message doesn't some to be fear of or disgust with the existence of a social credit system so much as with fear that that the wrong people might be in charge of it.
Think of how simple, how easy it would have been for there to be a non-Christian (at the start) character introduced early on, who also suffered under the heavy hand of this dystopia, and the main characters recognized this, and reached out to them, and they left together and the character converted because Christianity offer an alternative, offered salvation from the evils of this society! How it would have demonstrated that the main characters embraced the Christian love for their fellow man (err... bunny) that Jesus did. And considering her own recent conversion, it would have been easy to write from experience!
What do we get instead? We get a society that has the "wrong christians" in charge pushing their own preferred interpretation of Christianity, and we get our victims - the traditionalist, insular group of bunnies who make no effort to welcome outsiders and even at the end of the story only seem to have concern for those within their tribe. The version of Christianity we get is... empty, vacuous, and the defining feature of it is willingness to read an old book without taking any of its actual lessons to heart as best I can tell.
Would any of the characters, for all their superior christian faith and morals, have had a single problem with this society if the bible they were familiar with had been superficially at the center of it instead? Obviously not! The story really drives home that they would have been very, very fine with a social credit system that rewarded traditional Christian behaviour, that their Christianity offers no actual moral advantage over their peers, and overall that these bunnies are not, at the heart of things, particularly good people - and that if you aren't already one of the righteous ones at the start of the story, you can be written off as unimportant.
So, yeah. Unlike other people it's not the overt proselytization I disliked, I didn't mind that part at all. It's that it's just so... limited. More than being an attempt to convert, or an attempt to exalt her Christian beliefs, or an attempt to spell out of the evils of an unchristian society... It feels like the author had a story to tell to try that was primarily about justifying her own feelings of being persecuted unfairly (I'm not sure Minna actually has been persecuted for anything, but that's what it feels like? There feels like a distinct undertone of "They're out to get me") and responding by talking about how she, and people like her, will escape from this unfair society to their own special place just for people like them and you can't stop them (also ignore the fact that people like her basically call the shots for not, the fact that someday they might not is the greatest conceivable injustice)!
It's very John Galt, in a way. Although with not quite as much smugness and ego.
As to the author's note, vaccine passports somehow leading to a social credit system, while completely ignoring how much traditional christian societies had social norms that mirrored the social credit system described in the story, is crazy in a way that is both hilarious and worrying in terms of her possibly slipping deep into conspiracy theorist territory at some point in the future. At the very least it sounds like she's probably antivax which is, well.. not good, obviously, for someone who wants to be a good Christian.
Post by: pinkysaxton on April 19, 2021, 01:53:19 PM
Oooh, actually, I searched that up and it seems like a cool read! Something that really gets your mind going (literally, it takes effort to read), although the loss of letters does seem like a pain if you have a reading disability.
Initially, they have to come up with synonyms for what they'd usually say. "Fare well" instead of "Goodbye." It's done through letters, so there isn't any third-person description (outside of where the letters where found, such as 'kitchen table'). Later on, they are allowed to use misspellings that sound similar (in writing only). That gets pretty difficult to read. But by then, the story is almost over. So depending on how much one struggles with it, it could be worth the attempt.
I agree with GlyphGraph about the lack of imagination of Minna's world building (especially when compared to how full and deep SSSS seemed during my first read through). We've been considering the idea that her theology research will broaden her mind a bit, and hopefully make her future Christian stories better, more relatable, and more palatable. But the fundamentalists I know are very limited in what they've read (and understand) and primarily read to memorize and repeat the convenient bits. (It's fun to get into a bible argument with someone whose doctrine is mainly secondary or culture-based – see the tattoo quoting anti-gay Leviticus.) But from her own comment that she's getting more into the theology, history, and orthodoxy, I really don't think that will happen. I think she'll further engrain herself into whatever she's received from her converters. We know she hates new interpretations and new revised printings. But who in her new circle will mention that the orthodox version was cut-and-pasted together by Constantine and his bishops? Nobody who hates sharing "Jesus loves you" over "You've sinned against God" will give any credence to the Heresy Gospels.
So I think anyone who signs up for her newsletter is in for some more worlds created without complexity or imagination. And, like Maple mentioned earlier, this isn't the end of what she'll have to give up. People are agreeing with her now, that webcomics are more productive and 'mature' than coding. But she gave up programming when she loved it. And I know a lot of people who think webcomics, comics, and graphic novels are all trash. So we might not even see her fully realize the next comic project. She may have to shift mediums to continue.
Post by: Sc0ut on April 19, 2021, 02:23:48 PM
Think of how simple, how easy it would have been for there to be a non-Christian (at the start) character introduced early on, who also suffered under the heavy hand of this dystopia, and the main characters recognized this, and reached out to them, and they left together and the character converted because Christianity offer an alternative, offered salvation from the evils of this society! How it would have demonstrated that the main characters embraced the Christian love for their fellow man (err... bunny) that Jesus did. And considering her own recent conversion, it would have been easy to write from experience!
Easy to write from experience... really doubt about that. Nothing in the comic or her afterword suggested to me that her conversion got her to feel more connected to, or caring towards, other people - least of all non-Christians - and she was an avowed recluse to begin with.
I saw snippets in the thread (as much as I've been able to read) about Minna's disparaging comments about certain communities, etc. Does anyone know particulars? (Like what comments she's made, what communities she's against)
I didn't even know she had expressed negative views of certain communities/people.
Thanks!
As far as I know, she hasn't expressed any negative views explicitly. We're mostly drawing conclusions from her reactions (or lack thereof) to various concerns that readers of SSSS have brought up - like her defensive and dismissive reaction to being called out on her choice to make a joke containing a racial slur in the comic. But personally I only used to follow the comic and her comments there, people who watch her streams might know more.
Post by: catbirds on April 19, 2021, 06:01:04 PM
I saw snippets in the thread (as much as I've been able to read) about Minna's disparaging comments about certain communities, etc. Does anyone know particulars? (Like what comments she's made, what communities she's against)
If you wish to find the specific moment, a recorded version of the stream can be found here (https://href.li/?https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/10fo_2xRnBqBZqA94E2Knu4FpiHUXN3kh). She starts saying the Things at 22:10 and it continues until somewhere around 30 minutes. It was also transcribed on a tumblr post, but I don't know if there's a problem with linking to someone else's tumblr post on this forum.
As for the comic slur, that was in 2016. Just google "SSSS Emil slur" or something and it'll probably direct you to a forum post around the time when people started discussing it. The page where it actually happened was page 549, and the dismissive comment was page 550. The slur was changed not long after it was posted, I think (I wasn't there when it happened), so you won't find any trace of it on the page itself, except maybe in the comment archive.
I hope it doesn't come off as digging up old wounds, but I feel like I've alluded to this enough times that I should probably take some responsibility and guide people to something showing exactly what happened.
Easy to write from experience... really doubt about that. Nothing in the comic or her afterword suggested to me that her conversion got her to feel more connected to, or caring towards, other people - least of all non-Christians - and she was an avowed recluse to begin with.
I mean, again, I don't want to try to pry too many details about her life out of whatever she's said, both because why would I want to read things she's written at this point and because I don't care about content creators 99% of the time, but it's not even clear if she's studying her faith with other people. Like, for all we know, her lifestyle may not have changed at all and she might not even attend church. Not to mention the "I'm not like the other Christians" attitude that the bunny comic puts forth. If someone can verify that the church just Doesn't Work That Way, though, that would make that possibility meaningless.
Post by: Superdark33 on April 19, 2021, 10:55:37 PM
If you wish to find the specific moment, a recorded version of the stream can be found here (https://href.li/?https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/10fo_2xRnBqBZqA94E2Knu4FpiHUXN3kh). She starts saying the Things at 22:10 and it continues until somewhere around 30 minutes. It was also transcribed on a tumblr post, but I don't know if there's a problem with linking to someone else's tumblr post on this forum.
Theres no rules about it but heres the post either way!
https://superdark33.tumblr.com/post/626897379697770496/superdark33-xollos-verdisketch (https://superdark33.tumblr.com/post/626897379697770496/superdark33-xollos-verdisketch)
Its got a transcript and all.
As far as logical explanations go, it seems to me much more likely that its her bigoted views that brought her to whatever branch of christianity shes part of rather than anything the other way around.
Post by: GMantis on April 20, 2021, 09:12:37 AM
Post by: Ragnarok on April 20, 2021, 09:28:15 AM
Theres no rules about it but heres the post either way!
https://superdark33.tumblr.com/post/626897379697770496/superdark33-xollos-verdisketch (https://superdark33.tumblr.com/post/626897379697770496/superdark33-xollos-verdisketch)
Its got a transcript and all.
As far as logical explanations go, it seems to me much more likely that its her bigoted views that brought her to whatever branch of christianity shes part of rather than anything the other way around.
'Cities make you mentally ill'.
...
Well, okay then.
Post by: Maple on April 20, 2021, 10:00:36 AM
What exactly is bigoted about criticizing protests that blatantly violated the Covid restrictions, as well as the hypocritical reaction of authorities and media to these protests? Or maybe it's the dislike of city life that is supposed to be bigoted?
Those specific things aren't bigoted, but they are often the end result of bigoted thinking.
Here is an example, courtesy of my own grandma:
Grandma: Maple, you should live in [small town] with the rest of the family. It's just not safe in [big city]!
Me: I've never felt unsafe living in [big city], what do you mean?
Grandma: You know how it is. Crime is higher in the city. It's so much safer here, and less crowded.
Me: I haven't had any problems with crime?
Grandma: Well, with THOSE PEOPLE around, there's always going to be crime.
Me: ...'those people'?
Yeah. It ended up being that my grandma is racist and thinks that any area with a large population of nonwhite people will have problems with crime, because 'those people' commit crimes all the time. So her initial statement of "it's not safe in a big city" seemed innocent, but there were bigoted reasons for why she thought big cities were not safe.
(I am not saying that Minna is racist. This is just how words that sound okay can sometimes be hiding more hurtful thoughts.)
Post by: Vulpes on April 20, 2021, 10:40:49 AM
Those specific things aren't bigoted, but they are often the end result of bigoted thinking.
Here is an example, courtesy of my own grandma:
Grandma: Maple, you should live in [small town] with the rest of the family. It's just not safe in [big city]!
Me: I've never felt unsafe living in [big city], what do you mean?
Grandma: You know how it is. Crime is higher in the city. It's so much safer here, and less crowded.
Me: I haven't had any problems with crime?
Grandma: Well, with THOSE PEOPLE around, there's always going to be crime.
Me: ...'those people'?
Yeah. It ended up being that my grandma is racist and thinks that any area with a large population of nonwhite people will have problems with crime, because 'those people' commit crimes all the time. So her initial statement of "it's not safe in a big city" seemed innocent, but there were bigoted reasons for why she thought big cities were not safe.
(I am not saying that Minna is racist. This is just how words that sound okay can sometimes be hiding more hurtful thoughts.)
And racism doesn't have to manifest itself in obviously negative ways - "positive" stereotypes are still damaging. It always made me wince that my parents both said (more than once), "Black people have such a great sense of rhythm." Okay, they meant it as a compliment (especially my mother, she had a BA in music), but it's still a stereotype. Just as damaging as "Chinese are so good at math" or "Girls are naturally quiet" or "Boys are naturally brave" or any number of other stereotypes. They put people in boxes. My parents thought they were showing how non-racist they were by mentioning a positive quality, but it meant that they were still putting all Black people in a box marked "great rhythm", which probably came marked with a bunch of other assumptions as well, some of them a lot less favourable.
I know that I absorbed a lot of their attitudes, communicated in various subtle ways, and have to work hard at identifying them when they bubble up. One of my red flags is when I find myself thinking that "category of persons X" has "good attribute Y". What else do I believe about "Those People"? Do I really believe the stereotype? Does it help me understand the particular instance of "category of persons X" that I'm dealing with?
Superdark, thanks for the links, I don't follow the streams and I find tumblr completely confusing (can you tell I'm not a millenial? ;) And there's another stereotype >:D) so I too was in the dark about the BLM business. It makes me sad (again) that she doesn't seem to get the point. I know that I have a lot of work to do on my own prejudices of various sorts, but I do hope that I listen better than she seems to.
Post by: Róisín on April 20, 2021, 12:42:46 PM
Post by: lallivaesterstroem on April 20, 2021, 03:01:27 PM
What prompted me to finally post is that I saw an ad for Lovely People today while looking through stories on Instagram. I put the screenshots in an imgur album here (https://imgur.com/a/3MeCxNN). You can also see the very short description Minna wrote for the comic (which has the same issue as the longer description on the site).
I don't know if she ever advertised her works before- at least not on Instagram/Facebook, it seems? If anyone wants to see for themselves: go to her Instagram profile, tap "About this account" and then "Active ads". Either way, I suppose I just wasn't expecting to see it. If anyone has any thoughts on this, please do weigh in. I am still trying to make sense of mine.
Spoiler: show
). What rubs me the wrong way is the same thing that many people took issue with in the original description, I suppose- no trigger warnings, this time not even a mention of Christianity, plus the phrasing "lovely soft dystopia". Unaware Instagram users who decide to click on it for the cute art won't know what hit them. I've also never seen any of her works advertised outside of comic-related websites (correct me if I'm wrong and she advertised on social media before!), so I can't help but wonder why she chose to put this specific comic out there. I was definitely leaning towards "the shock value is the point and she WANTS people to be bonked in the face with a bible" before, and now I'm almost certain of it.Post by: pinkysaxton on April 20, 2021, 04:58:35 PM
What prompted me to finally post is that I saw an ad for Lovely People today while looking through stories on Instagram. I put the screenshots in an imgur album here (https://imgur.com/a/3MeCxNN). You can also see the very short description Minna wrote for the comic (which has the same issue as the longer description on the site).
So what I'm seeing is that she hates social media (as she's mentioned on live streams) and wrote a comic partially bashing the way they advertise a better lifestyle, then posts her ads on the social media sites. Is she hoping to catch people using them, then convince them to delete their accounts? I can't say for sure whether she's ever advertised either (apart from the Hiveworks click-throughs), but it sounds like she's falling into what she was railing against in her new comic.
Usually, I'd be like, "Way to go! Get a larger audience!" But this seems like what she was preaching about before. Is the difference that she isn't an 'influencer' and the product is her own? How does one justify using more social media and advertising after telling others that is in fact the problem with our current society?
Post by: tzelly on April 20, 2021, 05:00:35 PM
What prompted me to finally post is that I saw an ad for Lovely People today while looking through stories on Instagram. I put the screenshots in an imgur album here (https://imgur.com/a/3MeCxNN). You can also see the very short description Minna wrote for the comic (which has the same issue as the longer description on the site).
I don't know if she ever advertised her works before- at least not on Instagram/Facebook, it seems? If anyone wants to see for themselves: go to her Instagram profile, tap "About this account" and then "Active ads". Either way, I suppose I just wasn't expecting to see it. If anyone has any thoughts on this, please do weigh in. I am still trying to make sense of mine.
I saw this this very ad on the book of faces the other day and nearly lost it. My way of handling it was reporting the ad as inappropriate for that's how I found the comic. Its seems to me like a wide net to trap more people into reading something they are not prepared for. This worries me. I also wander if this marketing is really her idea. for as you stated she has never done anything like this before as far as I know.
With my life getting kinda really stressful at the moment, I completely forgot I saw it until now, thanks for sharing!
Post by: Windfighter on April 20, 2021, 08:16:53 PM
Okay so here we go with the dump:
1) I was warned about the comic. I read a post that said it was chick tract and if you read it you had to be prepared. so uh... I had no idea what chick tract was so I thought it was a newfangled spelling of chick flick because the internet loves to make new spellings for stuff. I went in expecting fun adventures, Friendship is Magic, fashion and Boys are stupid and the meaning of life or something. It was not that.
(this is more my own fault than Minna's and considering my own inability to write summaries I can't fault her for the lack of it but ye, she's seriously lacking in that department for the bunny-comic and by now I'm 100% certain she's doing it on purpose)
2) The art felt less substantial than other art Minna has done???? I dunno I can't express it better. It felt so unreal and I just couldn't take it seriously
3) So I started the comic and the first page had me superwary because it made it seem like Minna was pro faceless entity watching your every move and judging you for what you do and who you interact with and who only supported you if you gave them your undying love and attention. I kept going because surely? she wouldn't? and some pages later there seemed like it would start actually talking about how that wasn't good.
but it didn't
and then it ended with a confirmation that a faceless entity watching your every move and judging you for what you do and who you interact with and who only supports you if you give them your undying love and attention was exactly what Minna was pro, it just was a different faceless entity
4) the afterword! Odin's beard, that was just *dies* And the author's note after that??? I mean ye I also post stupid shit on the internet but I don't have an audience of thousands of people and Minna need to understand that she IS actually one of those influencers already
5) not really about the comic and I don't know if I should rant about it here but i need to rant about it somewhere and since the post got quoted here: Minna's dad going "Minna is too smart to join a cult" just made me super worried about all of them because a) you don't join a cult, you join friends or family or likeminded people and b) if a cult HAS snatched her then they won't realize it because minna wouldn't fall for that so surely it's fine and it can't be a cult. Also it rubbed m the wrong way because c) there are smart people joining cults because, as already stated, you don't join a cult, you join a group of people (I saw a good post about this on tumblr a week or so ago)
6) Bible v2.0. I didn't knew if I should laugh or cry. I ended up deciding that I can't trust Minna about anything (not that I had much trust in her anyway after the shitstorm last year but that's offtopic)
7) after finishing the bunny comic my brain went "oh so this is why something's been feeling off about SSSS the last year and a half and might be why I started losing interest in it" so at least there's that. If you ask me what has been feeling off I wouldn't be able to explain it though :P
8 ) Teen-bunny is the only valid character in the comic and I am so disappointed that she was only used as a plotpoint to get schoolteacher to follow her christian friend so she could get converted. I also liked the Husband-bunny even though his only personality trait was Being a Husband but then he went and became christian just because he read the Banned Bible and I just "okay you just fell off the Valid Character-ladder". I don't mind christian characters and I don't mind christian themed stories but this wasn't just themed, this was preachment
It's been A While since I read the comic and I have absolutely No plans to read it again because it was just terrible so there's my rant done and over with because I can't remember anything more about it. It could probably maybe have been a good commentary about the social credit system and how having a faceless entity deciding over your fate is not a good thing and we need to be aware except for the fact that Minna seems to not care and not want to get educated enough on the subject to make an actual substantial point. "Abandon your faceless entity and follow mine instead because yours allow technology and that is Evil" is not as great a point as the comic seems to think it is.
Tunglr.hell also made me realize it's a pretty ableist view because A Lot of disabled people are dependant on technology for their day-to-day life and that is not something I had thought about myself so I want to thank tumblr for the way it keeps educating me on matters I don't know enough about. I also want to thank everyone here because if I hadn't found all of you and if I hadn't moved away from my family there's a very real possibility that I would have gone towards the same bigoted road Minna seems to have taken and I'm superglad I grew as a person (and continue growing still) enough to go in the other direction.
There was another PS I wanted to add here but I lost it and it's now 02:15 and my alarm goes of in <6 hours so I should definately flop into bed already :P Sorry for the rant and thanks for the thread, it has been superinteresting following it!
Post by: thorny on April 20, 2021, 11:32:45 PM
So I've been staying out of this whole thing because I do not have a way with words like the rest of you. I cannot express myself at all.
I got that far in your post and thought "I'm going to have to post and disagree with that."
And then I read the rest of your post and yup; I have to disagree with the bit that I quoted above. Thanks for the post -- and for bringing in both the point that yes smart people join cults, and also the point about technology and abledness; I don't think anyone in all of these pages had brought up either before.
Post by: Kevin_Redcrow on April 20, 2021, 11:49:05 PM
Quoting Windfighter: I read a post that said it was chick tract and if you read it you had to be prepared. so uh... I had no idea what chick tract was...
You may have already researched Chick tract, but I'll summarize it here for those interested: From the 1960's until ? Jack Chick was the creator of cartoon-style christian tracts. His christianity is definitely the hard-line and paranoid type: No salvation outside Jesus. Society, Government, Education, Popular Culture; all persecute christians and attempt to seduce people away from the Right Path.
I heard of one of Chick's tracts having the story of a sheriff holding a condemned robber and killer who found Jesus after he was captured and tried for his crimes. The sheriff is not a christian but is a moral man. The criminal is executed and goes to heaven. When the sheriff dies he goes to hell.
Quoting pinkysaxton:
I agree with GlyphGraph about the lack of imagination of Minna's world building (especially when compared to how full and deep SSSS seemed during my first read through). We've been considering the idea that her theology research will broaden her mind a bit, and hopefully make her future Christian stories better, more relatable, and more palatable. But the fundamentalists I know are very limited in what they've read (and understand) and primarily read to memorize and repeat the convenient bits. (It's fun to get into a bible argument with someone whose doctrine is mainly secondary or culture-based – see the tattoo quoting anti-gay Leviticus.) But from her own comment that she's getting more into the theology, history, and orthodoxy, I really don't think that will happen. I think she'll further engrain herself into whatever she's received from her converters. We know she hates new interpretations and new revised printings. But who in her new circle will mention that the orthodox version was cut-and-pasted together by Constantine and his bishops? Nobody who hates sharing "Jesus loves you" over "You've sinned against God" will give any credence to the Heresy Gospels.
I find "Jesus loves you" just another way of saying "You've sinned against God" They are both limiting concepts, not expanding ones.
Based on the fragmentary picture I have of Minna, I can see her going in one of two directions.
If she means by "theology" that she intends to approach the christian faith from a broad, scholarly fashion, then she may very well become more moderate in all her views. But from the tone and phrasing of the afterword of Lovely People, she may merely using the term "theology" to refer to an exclusive selection of christian materials which are crafted to support that brand of christianity she has chosen.
Based on her general comments she posted on SSSS updates, I see a reclusive person who isn't about to regularly attend a church in Real Time/Space. If she did, she might run screaming out of the church after the second or third service. Nothing beats Being There with people of any given belief, culture, or lifestyle to understand what is really going on.
At least, that's what I hope would happen. I still cannot wrap my mind around how someone who can create such a rich, imaginative, insightful story as SSSS can embrace such a narrow worldview.
I have to remember that people now spend a large proportion of their waking hours in cyberspace, just as you and I are at "this" very moment. If Minna exclusively associates with fundamentalists online, then yes, she may go deeper into the rabbit hole.
Or one day she might see or hear something that puts the lie to the toxic elements of this religion, and as abruptly renounce it as she renounced atheism.
Take this with a grain of salt. I haven't followed all the streams, read all of this forum, etc. I have tried to filter some essential notions of who Minna is and why this happened.
I will confess that my views are quite selfish, and that what anybody else chooses to do with their soul, mind, body, and heart is their business, not mine. I am still sad that this event pretty much spells the premature end of such a beautiful, unique saga that is SSSS.
Post by: catbirds on April 21, 2021, 01:41:46 AM
Based on her general comments she posted on SSSS updates, I see a reclusive person who isn't about to regularly attend a church in Real Time/Space. If she did, she might run screaming out of the church after the second or third service. Nothing beats Being There with people of any given belief, culture, or lifestyle to understand what is really going on.
At least, that's what I hope would happen. I still cannot wrap my mind around how someone who can create such a rich, imaginative, insightful story as SSSS can embrace such a narrow worldview.
...
I will confess that my views are quite selfish, and that what anybody else chooses to do with their soul, mind, body, and heart is their business, not mine. I am still sad that this event pretty much spells the premature end of such a beautiful, unique saga that is SSSS.
This isn't adding too much to the thread in itself, but let me put it this way.
What does the setting of a story mean to the author?
Most people on this forum probably considered it a neat little world with nature and magic, which is pretty normal stuff. To most people, it would seem benign, but if Minna has always hated city life and thought it rots your sanity or something, then SSSS becomes a setting where you don't have to deal with "those people," which definitely is not the same as what the audience has seen it as!! Not to mention that most elements of modern pop culture that made its way into cities first and has been greatly influenced by non-European cultures went poof in the setting. That's just the way that I've chosen to reason through this given my life experiences.
I once wrote a 10-page-long rant just to get my thoughts out about this thing, and while I think I did reach a little in that, this paragraph pretty much summarizes the reasoning I followed to figure out why SSSS is the way it is while the author is the way she is.
I don't want to reach too much again because I'm not familiar with religion outside of its influence on history, but I'm pretty sure most people have already said that she seems to see it as a way out of the "evil modern times" in the bunny comic. So... not a total 180, not that that's helpful considering the damage it's done already.
So I've been staying out of this whole thing because I do not have a way with words like the rest of you. I cannot express myself at all. I've been following the thread and nodding along with it a lot though because you manage to put words to stuff I picked up subconciously when I read the comic. So I'm just here to dump a few things because this thing has been on my mind since I read it and it's getting irritating :P
Windy, this dump was great. I mean, when this thread first started, people got reasonably emotional about this because an artist they loved turned into a bible thumper basically. I'm glad you gave yourself some time to think things out, and I hope everyone who came by since also got that time for their own thoughts.
Did we see the same post about cults, by any chance? The one I saw was about how the current state of the world made things pretty ideal for a cult boom.
Honestly, I also feel like something has been a bit off about SSSS. I've figured it out mostly, but it actually has a bit less to do with this whole thing than it does with the actual storytelling elements of SSSS. But that has little to do with this thread, so perhaps I'll save those thoughts for a rainy day ^-^
As for the art of the bunny comic and the story itself... well, it feels somehow... too clean? That's about the nicest way I can put it. It feels like discrimination written by someone who has never bothered to think about it until five minutes ago, or the feeling of hearing a rich friend gripe about not being able to go on vacation.
Post by: esedege on April 21, 2021, 07:46:26 AM
I've kept reading this thread, but I've decided not to keep reading SSSS. I still hurt a bit, and I've come to see it through a detox glass. Not sure brooding here is gonna help, tho, so let me say I'm glad to have found you all, even so late into this whole experience.
I've read here about Minna keeping Saami people, and other currently extant minorities in Nordic countries out of SSSS, Windfighter mentions ableism is present in LP, and catbirds does the same about non-European influences going poof by the time SSSS starts. Are we sure those are conscious decisions, and not simply bad writing? I mean, if I were to write a SSSS-esque story set in Spain (where I am from), I should immerse myself in the history and internal conflicts and peoples that inhabit this country. So I'd add Romani, people of Arab descent, maybe (I'd have to actually do the research for this one to take percentages into account) people of Subsaharan descent; depending on where the story is set inside Spain I'd need to keep in mind two to six languages (sadly not as closely related as Nor-Dan-Swe-Ice are) and a bunch of Spanish dialects for funsies… and that's only pertaining ethnicity and languages. Are we sure she did the research before starting SSSS –or LP–? Could it be that, as she has had to keep the story going we've become more aware of the limitations? Are we not reading some points in hindsight –including myself with that "illegal refugees" thing–? I'm genuinely asking because I've never watched her streamings nor followed her anywhere else but here, and maybe it's just a Critical Research Failure. If she's being always such a recluse, she may have developed a distaste for anything foreign to her small world, not even knowing the scope of it. Let me put this bluntly: do you consider her to be a learned person?
I think this is a perspective worth considering, although I'm not defending her: as of LP, she seems spiteful, full of hatred and self-righteousness, and maybe even pain, but as all that is wrongly directed at me –among lots of others– I'm not quite inclined to show much mercy or comprehension.
Back in track, and maybe as a personal conclusion, not doing the research is kinda one of the most "appreciated" characteristics of a bigot. Yea, I'm still hurt.
[Edited to ad an 'a' to Saami, just to be sure.]
Post by: Sc0ut on April 21, 2021, 09:00:01 AM
Are we sure those are conscious decisions, and not simply bad writing?
Her reaction to the criticism tells you if they're conscious decisions or something she accidentally overlooked. SSSS has been going on for years, people have been pointing out the lack of non-white characters in the setting for years. At no point has Minna responded with anything like "it was an oversight on my part, but I understand why it matters to some/ I'd do it differently if I had to do it again/ I will include non-white characters now because I want to correct my oversight". She did imply that PoC might have survived in other areas but never went as far as to explicitly state it. Just baiting, baiting, baiting, like with the queerness: write in such a way that both someone who wants a world without PoC and someone who doesn't can enjoy the story. It's one of the things that makes me the most wary about the comic and tbh a big reason why I've been distancing myself from it even before LP was published.
I also need to point out that the comic does not exist in a void. Europeans especially will be more aware about the fact that Norse mythology specifically, and European folklore more generally, have been coopted by far right groups, and online they are often used as signals for this type of views. As sad as it makes me to say it, having been a fan of these things, I am now automatically wary when a webcomic, band, blog or whatever is steeped too much into this culture without explicit signs that they welcome the categories of people that the far right hates.
Post by: Yuuago on April 21, 2021, 09:21:14 AM
I've read here about Minna keeping Sami people, and other currently extant minorities in Nordic countries out of SSSS, Windfighter mentions ableism is present in LP, and catbirds does the same about non-European influences going poof by the time SSSS starts. Are we sure those are conscious decisions, and not simply bad writing?
I can't speak to the rest, but. Regarding the Saami people. It isn't that she just didn't include any Saami people in the comic.
It's that the Saami languages are canonically listed as dead, and author's commentary (in response to a question about that) is that the Saami people "melted into the rest of the population".
When the real-world context is that these are people who have been subject to cultural genocide, and subject to attempts to forcibly "melt them into the population", this is... I'm not really sure how to describe it.
Like, there are ways to acknowledge them in the worldbuilding without actually writing any Saami characters, if it was a matter of her just not thinking she could do a good job or not wanting to cover that area. She did that with Estonians! Their language is listed as small but still living, and she's stated in response to questions that there are still populations of Estonians, though the known world populations don't currently live in Estonia. But in regards to the Saami, she point-blank said "These people are all gone".
Reading what she said made my hair stand on end. She might be a recluse, but I don't think this can be just brushed off as not knowing things.
Post by: Windfighter on April 21, 2021, 10:10:18 AM
....askkgjsf I got off-topic. Anyway I didn't mean to say that Minna purposely added "Technology is bad" as a way of saying "disabled people are bad", I just realized that that was A Thing that could be read into it and I needed to yell it somewhere :$
Post by: Raaffiie on April 21, 2021, 10:53:30 AM
If there's anything I'll be taking away from this situation, it's to be even more wary about the kind of things I'm willing to forgive from an author and how those things add up when you put them all together. I'll see if I keep hanging around the forum - I only just got here, and you guys are too nice a bunch to leave so soon. But otherwise, personally, I'm done with the whole thing.
Post by: LetsEatBees on April 21, 2021, 12:54:50 PM
I should mention upfront that I have not had traumatic experiences with religion. I have found most Christian media to be empty, fear mongering, condescending, or willfully ignorant, and yea, Lovely People pushed a lot of very annoying buttons.
In my opinion lovely People almost got me invested, I thought the dystopian social credit system was delivered in a good, creepy, way. What with how all-encompassing yet mundane way it's treated in universe.
Once the religious stuff started to take over the whole narrative my thoughts were thus:
"Say sike right now.."
The afterword was a special kind of "what" as said by someone earlier in the thread it sounded like disorganized stream-of- consciousness rant, personally while I thought Minna was just kind of conservative leaning recluse I never thought she was so bitter and judgy.
(was hoping she was just kind of boomer, basically) Also the part where one of the bunnies rants on the internet about her followers struck me as a bit too personal, it suggests that she really has not gotten over the whole "Emil" incident and at that point I just lol'd, she might be less nice than I thought she was.(seriously I was so confused for like weeks)
I've been anxious about how SSSS would end or degrade in quality since the announcement of the side comic, I’ve also been honest with myself about how no matter how it chose to end I probably would never be satisfied with it. But I kind of hoped there would be maybe a year or two more before that, but now it seems the worst case scenario has happened where the author touches’ the series and runs.
I have been trying to prepare myself to move on to something else ever since the end of adventure 1, but for whatever reason I just don't feel ready to let SSSS go. I'll be honest SSSS got me through some of the worst days of my life, and most fandoms/media I was in just sort of lost momentum or properly ended, can't say I’ve been in a situation where the author just kind of spat in my face. I feel stupid for feeling so attach to this comic, but I’ve really never found anything like it and it's not something I can really replace.
Post by: esedege on April 21, 2021, 02:20:20 PM
First of all, Windfighter, there's nothing you have to apologise for, I was the one unable to put two and two together (aka, your comment and her afterword despising medicine in general and medication in particular.) I'm truly sorry for any stress I may have caused you.
Secondly, thanks to Sc0ut for teaching me this.
Europeans especially will be more aware about the fact that Norse mythology specifically, and European folklore more generally, have been coopted by far right groups, and online they are often used as signals for this type of views.
It makes total sense for the far right to appropriate the folklore. However, I was totally unaware of that, as Spain lacks any sort of ancient folklore (as a whole, not sure if there are some traces of Celtic or Basque folklore in the North part). Our neofascism, for example, longs for Francoist dictatorship, i.e. National Catholicism. I'll be more vigilant in the future.
When the real-world context is that these are people who have been subject to cultural genocide, and subject to attempts to forcibly "melt them into the population", this is... I'm not really sure how to describe it.
Yeah, if she said that (and I'm using 'if' just to make the sentence flow, I have no reason to doubt it) that can only be read as 'I want to get rid of these people and there's no in-universe reason to do that, so this'll have to work' that could either mean bad writing (counter-argument taken by her keeping Estonians alive) or blatant racism. I have to admit to you, Yuuago, that I may have read back then it but my knowledge of the Saami people almost ends with me knowing about their existence, so even if I read it it would not have had an impact on me then. But that (lack of) reaction boils down to me being ignorant.
Her reaction to the criticism tells you if they're conscious decisions or something she accidentally overlooked. SSSS has been going on for years, people have been pointing out the lack of non-white characters in the setting for years. At no point has Minna responded with anything like "it was an oversight on my part, but I understand why it matters to some/ I'd do it differently if I had to do it again/ I will include non-white characters now because I want to correct my oversight". She did imply that PoC might have survived in other areas but never went as far as to explicitly state it. Just baiting, baiting, baiting, like with the queerness: write in such a way that both someone who wants a world without PoC and someone who doesn't can enjoy the story. It's one of the things that makes me the most wary about the comic and tbh a big reason why I've been distancing myself from it even before LP was published.
You've convinced me almost completely, though I can still see her making an unconscious mistake and doubling down on it instead of conceding. Self-righteousness doesn't come by accepting your mistakes and growing as a person, you know? You have to work hard for it ;)
I'm not a very sensitive person about these matters (I'm trying to improve tho), but reading your last sentences it's dawned on me that I have surely been cheated on in that regard more than once, even though I can only pinpoint Modern Family ('Yay, our gays are very gay! But they won't ever kiss onscreen till backlash comes haunting us!' being the main reason I distanced myself from it).
That 'You can project and hope, but I'll have none of those stinky things in my story' attitude kinda reminds me of some other author that keeps twisting her characters after the story has already ended just to appeal to minorities without having done a single thing for them where it matters (aka, in her books). But, alas, I'm not sure Minna will accept those anymore.
I'd like to link that last quote from Sc0ut with this one by Raaffiie to make a short off topic that I'll hide.
If there's anything I'll be taking away from this situation, it's to be even more wary about the kind of things I'm willing to forgive from an author and how those things add up when you put them all together. I'll see if I keep hanging around the forum - I only just got here, and you guys are too nice a bunch to leave so soon. But otherwise, personally, I'm done with the whole thing.
Spoiler: show
I just don't feel ready to let SSSS go. I'll be honest SSSS got me through some of the worst days of my life, and most fandoms/media I was in just sort of lost momentum or properly ended, can't say I’ve been in a situation where the author just kind of spat in my face. I feel stupid for feeling so attach to this comic, but I’ve really never found anything like it and it's not something I can really replace.
Hi, LetsEatBees! I agree with you as a whole, but wanted to highlight this you said about SSSS. I loved the art, and I invested so much in the characters, and I was eager to know more about the rash origin. Now I think that discovering that origin, as much as healing or reverting it, was completely out of the scope of SSSS. Even more so because Minna wrote herself into a corner: people in that world have accepted their destiny, there's no coordinated attempt to really improve. I'm not saying it could be easy living in that universe, but SSSS is completely defeatist in that regard, so in the long run I'm not sure if it could be nothing but episodic and samey.
———
Ok, the One Last Edit!
Raaffiie, this off-topic spoiler is just for you! I've been meaning to do it since ages ago!
Spoiler: show
Post by: Raaffiie on April 21, 2021, 04:47:49 PM
Spoiler: show
Post by: Vulpes on April 21, 2021, 06:46:25 PM
Europeans especially will be more aware about the fact that Norse mythology specifically, and European folklore more generally, have been coopted by far right groups, and online they are often used as signals for this type of views.
Thanks for that, Sc0ut - I suppose at some level I was aware of this, and really should have been properly clued in, so I'm glad you did clue me in! I will be appropriately wary from now on.
So I've been staying out of this whole thing because I do not have a way with words like the rest of you. I cannot express myself at all. I've been following the thread and nodding along with it a lot though because you manage to put words to stuff I picked up subconciously when I read the comic. So I'm just here to dump a few things because this thing has been on my mind since I read it and it's getting irritating :P
Windy!! I've missed your hilarious contributions to advent calendars and chapter breaks. And I agree with thorny, you certainly can express yourself, very eloquently and thoughtfully. Excellent dump, I hope it was cathartic.
I just read a bunch of comments here and I'm sorry, my eyes can't take scrolling back to see who said it, but someone used the phrase "last straw" in reference to LP and Minna's handling of the fallout. That's how I've been feeling about it.
When I first stumbled on SSSS, I was immediately captivated by the art, the story, the relatable characters... all of it. I was slightly annoyed when my SO immediately pointed out that it was "a white supremacist's dream" or something along those lines - annoyed precisely because I had noted the all-white cast and said to myself, "Well, the author probably doesn't feel comfortable writing non-white characters. Heck, I would feel uncomfortable writing a character from a different social stratum, so who am I to criticise?"
I caught up to The Emil Incident, and found that a bit of a head-scratcher, not having seen it in real time. But I chalked up her response to snippiness due to having got a ton of really unpleasant email. Not an excuse to be dismissive, but at least an explanation.
Then I kept hearing about other stuff in other places, but always second- third- or whatever-hand, with no easy way to confirm, so I suppose I stuck my metaphorical fingers in my ears and went lalala because I was enjoying the story.
When she announced the side-project, alarm bells went off - not for what happened, but it sounded like she'd lost interest in SSSS, even though she said she hadn't. I started bracing myself for a premature end to SSSS, but I was not prepared for LP and that screed that followed it.
Now that I think about it, LP and its fallout is less of a last straw as a last load of bricks - it was a lot to process. I guess it forced me to take my fingers out of my ears and stop saying lalala, as well.
The news that she's actively (and deceptively) advertising LP is yet another last straw - if there was any last lingering doubt that she was intentionally drawing people in to read LP, whether they'd be okay with its message or not, it's gone.
It's always disappointing when someone whose work you admire turns out to be less of a decent human than you assumed. But sometimes you can ignore that and still enjoy the work. But in this case her response has been terrible, not only has she revealed some pretty unpleasant character traits, she's also shown zero empathy to her long-time fans, or anyone else who took offense.
Eh, sorry, off on another gloomy meditation! I didn't think it possible to be so affected by something like this, but it's certainly made me think about a lot of stuff, regarding the comic and beyond.
Post by: Haiz on April 21, 2021, 06:48:02 PM
here are some things i have experienced:
- media letting me down and causing actual ramifications on my life or lives or others
- people telling me i cannot like a piece of media because They Heard It's Bad
- some people on social media turning against me to the point of creating a public callout and listing Reasons Why Haiz Is Bad
point one: i am always going to advocate for media striving for diversity, inclusivity, and compassionate portrayals thereof. i sincerely believe going the extra steps to be inclusive will pay off and at the very least, getting sensitivity readers should be a common practice. i will also cut indie creators more slack than giant corporations with huge teams and budgets. i know from firsthand experience that doing harmful representation doesn't happen in vacuum - there's a notorious episode of House MD that did an extremely poor job of portraying asexual people, at a time where asexual people had no representation anywhere in media, that directly affected how my own mother viewed asexuality. it directly impacted my life. i say this to make it clear that i don't ever want to handwave the importance of good representation.
i also really do believe ssss as a story would've been much better if it had made the smallest of efforts to include non-white people and saami people. i don't think a story can ride on Good Representation alone, but weaving in inclusivity into an already compelling story can only enhance it, i think. i also don't think it's possible to include every group or create a perfect representation of every group you DO include. i think every piece of media is flawed, just as every creator is flawed. i also think it can be very constructive and good to discuss and analyze these flaws and gaps in stories.
point two: the efforts of wanting Better Representation and More Diversity often comes with a backside of "these pieces of media are morally good and these pieces are morally bad". that's.... one heck of a conversation to have, so i'm not going to delve into it fully. a lot of conversations about flaws in media stop being constructive when they become a tug-of-war over whether or not reading a book or watching a tv series makes you a bad person. it also becomes real easy to create bad faith arguments over how this media or this creator are Bad Actually based on a limited pool of information, or worse, hearsay. again and again i have experienced people who have heard from someone who heard from someone who read a book i like that the book has a Bad Thing, and so they send me a message, did you know you just shared a piece of art from a Book that is Bad? and i always have to ask, what about the book is so bad, or answer, yes i have read the book and i am aware and critical of the bad thing in the book. it's not like i'm unwilling to have that conversation, but it's hard to have it when the other side, who has more often than not read the book, is just telling me to stop liking the book.
if this sounds like i should be able to relate to the story of lovely people, haha, just wait
point three: just as it's easy to make bad faith arguments about how this liking book actually makes you bad, it's easy to make anyone out to be bad if you really go in for it. and people do, constantly! just like some of the posts before this one discuss within spoilered parts. while it was not for reading Bad and Evil books, i too experienced people who decided (for petty vendetta reasons) that i was bad and people should actually be very wary of me and my Manipulative Charming Ways for.... reasons. you'll have to decide for yourself whether or not you trust me when i say i had not done anything actually wrong, but you'll probably believe it when i say it was a deeply upsetting and harrowing experience. not the reveal that these specific people hated my guts or anything, i knew that. but the fact that to some degree, it worked. a lot of people i thought trusted me, suddenly turned out to not trust me at all - or maybe they were on the fence but did not want to get punished for the crime of associating with me. fair enough! my friends really did go through some wingers for that, but that's another trauma for another time.
im trying to say two things here:
- it can be really really easy to twist a narrative around someone or something, especially online.
- you want to talk about how bad twitter is? i WILL tell you how bad twitter is. what i experienced and what i witness every day is hardly the tip of the iceberg of how upsetting twitter is. twitter is a wretched place that self-generates outrage for engagement as fuel. social media is a ruin og contextual collapse where anything that can be taken in bad faith, WILL be taken in bad faith. these places are intentionally designed to keep us trapped and manipulate our brain chemicals because of capitalistic cynicism. we're not equipped to handle this deluge of constant information.
by all accounts, i can sympathize with facing backlash online and disliking social media and what it does to people. i should relate to lovely people. i can see all the points it's trying to make, and i presume so does everyone else. i still think it's really flat and shallow and is written to push an agenda. i don't think throwing your phone off a bridge is the solution to the problems presented.
i don't think anyone can make a judgement whether or not minna had good or bad intentions in the past, or if the intentions were good ENOUGH if they so were, since good and bad are such arbitrary absolutes... but it's pretty well documented how her choices have dissappointed and hurt people, and i know we had at least one or two actual white supremacists trying to be slick and interact with the fandom/community back in the day, and that's Two Too Many.
i don't have a specific conclusion here or if i'm even bringing anything new and constructive to the table. i'm just really invested in these particular and complicated topics ya feel. either way i don't think anyone can say anything worse about minna than she said about herself in the afterword...
edit wait my conclusion is that it's okay to enjoy bad books if you want. you're probably not harming a community by reading bad books. but you gotta decide whether or not you're comfortable with monetarily supporting the author or if you should take a trip to the library.
Post by: Róisín on April 21, 2021, 11:10:37 PM
And it is sad to hear of your social media experiences, they sound awful. Be aware that some of us value you and your work, and the best advice I can give is to go on as bravely as you can, making use of the insights you have gained in your personal growth and in whatever making you choose to do in the future. Because I know you for a maker and a keeper, with a strong creative urge and a body of fine work to show for it. Courage and luck to you!
Post by: Superdark33 on April 22, 2021, 12:33:38 AM
When people like Minna do that with "does it jesus or not" regarding companies, governments or people, its how they always operated, its not a surprise, thats how this religious institution has been for all of its existence.
But when people On Line try to use this sort of thinking with unrelated issues that dont amount to "Jesus or not", it becomes jarring and weird, something is off and no one can pinpoint why because most of the people in the western world or influenced by it will treat this Moral Thinking as default withlut question.
Its one thing to see a work and comments from its creator and judge them to hold X or Y views, its a whole other to fabricate extrapolations aimed at reaching a conclusion you already had, as if just saying "i dont like it" wont cut it.
Minna's words and actions are well enough reason for me to see her as nothing but a paranoid bigot who refuses to accept anything that isnt shallow praise for doing what she wants.
Post by: Róisín on April 22, 2021, 02:58:17 AM
Post by: catbirds on April 22, 2021, 05:02:34 AM
Its one thing to see a work and comments from its creator and judge them to hold X or Y views, its a whole other to fabricate extrapolations aimed at reaching a conclusion you already had, as if just saying "i dont like it" wont cut it.
Minna's words and actions are well enough reason for me to see her as nothing but a paranoid bigot who refuses to accept anything that isnt shallow praise for doing what she wants.
Spoiler: very bitter feelings • show
Post by: Moose on April 22, 2021, 08:48:51 AM
Im brand new here, i realy wish i had found this place earlier, it seems like a place thats less toxic then many other places on the webb.
Lets see if i manage to put my words out right.
When i first found the comic ssss about two years ago i first was a bit causes, i did want to end up liking some right wing fantasy show as they missuse everything norse.
But it seems to be okej.
Along the time i read the comic there was some things that started to itch a bit in the back of my head.
The lack of diversity, the fact the virus came with refuges, The absens of saamipeople and that she wrote a comment stating her political stand probanly was far from The readers (i dont remember exact quote or pagenr)
After have read in this thread more things that i dont agree with the coomic lovely peope was like the last mail in The coffin.
She is an amazing artist, she can learn to portray poc People, black People, she could have used oversea livestock as a virushotspot for exampel.
And as for the saami, i mean Come on!
I did not know it was canon that the saamis had "melted in" with the rest.
As a saami that is just...i dont know how to even adress that!
Its what has been tried to do with my people for centuries, with vilonce, forse, with shaming and stealing and it still happens today. That some trolls would make us disapear is so unlikly im almost laghing.
I understand that dealing with minoritys, with other cultures one have to make sure to not appropriate but she could have just stated "still alive" or what ever.
And btw, we saamis would probably be asome trollhunters, the majority of (south)saami stores is us fooling an killing braineating, bloodsucking, childstealing trolls ;D
All this and then the LP story. Yeas the LP story.
As a saami i had my fear share of "Gods work"
A lot of The saami "religion" is eather gone or in hiding becous of The church demonitizing it, and even burning saamis defending it.
People have the right to there religion, but trying to force it on others, or shaming, beliving other belifes are wrong and bad is just sickening.
If nothing else turns up i will read the end of ssss but that it.
Right now im just glad i did not buy the books i intended to.
Even without the note in The end it was, in my opinion, bad. I found it lackning in The story, it missed the dept and the cute look is not my cup of tee.
I know one can only doo so mutch with short amont of pages but it felt like she rushed to produce this story, to get it out that the story was just a mishmash to get her point out.
I know some Will brush everything away, saying its not a big deal, or its overanalizing but i have learned to trust my instinct.
I read a red tails dream, it was beutiful but a bit to slow for my taste.
But a thing that stood out was all the fatjokes. Its not funny.
Well that was my toughts about all this. I hope you can overlook misspellings, english is not my first languegs and I try my best☺️
Post by: Sc0ut on April 22, 2021, 09:13:56 AM
Post by: Superdark33 on April 22, 2021, 10:23:27 AM
Spoiler: very bitter feelings • show
From the ever dark depths of my heart i really hope youll understand i mean this in the sincerest way possible when i tell you that i understand exactly how you feel and have seen many examples of what you describe here.
Post by: Opaque on April 22, 2021, 11:14:00 AM
I know some Will brush everything away, saying its not a big deal, or its overanalizing but i have learned to trust my instinct.Moose, it is a big deal. Sure, some people will brush it off but most of the people here won't. We like to listen and understand peoples feelings. Your concerns won't be brushed off as overanalyzing. Frankly, a lot of indigenous people would survive a troll infested world. They're really strong and wouldn't be pushovers when it comes to survival. These people try so hard to keep their culture and language alive despite others trying to force conformity. Instead of melting into the rest of the population shouldn't the difference between cultures be celebrated? But for some reason that's too much to ask.
Culture, language, religion are all beautiful.
The differences between them are beautiful.
Everyone getting a shot at killing a troll is beautiful.
Saying things like "melt into the culture " is not beautiful.
the fact the virus came with refugesIf only people knew how many illnesses were brought to other countries by white foreigners.
Post by: thorny on April 22, 2021, 12:13:34 PM
my conclusion is that it's okay to enjoy bad books if you want. you're probably not harming a community by reading bad books. but you gotta decide whether or not you're comfortable with monetarily supporting the author or if you should take a trip to the library.
Pretty much my conclusion also.
And, having said that: to anyone reading this thread who thinks this is a new thing or that 'cancel culture' is a leftwing thing (which is probably not Haiz): my personal first exposure (I'm sure it goes back a lot further) was somewhere around 1970, when my older sister told me I shouldn't buy anything by Joan Baez because my sister thought she was a traitor for her activities against the Vietnam / USA war.
I went right on listening to Baez (I was short on money to buy anything anyway), which was an easy decision because I disagreed with my sister about that war anyway. I've run into harder choices since. But I think that continuing to read/listen/etc. (if one chooses to do so) with an awareness of the problems, rather than by pretending they aren't there, is a crucial part of the decision.
'Cities make you mentally ill'.
...
Well, okay then.
I think that's a bad case of 'everybody is me'. Cities do put some people in a very unpleasant mental state. I'm one of them. Minna may well be another.
But that's not at all the same thing as 'Cities screw up everybody who lives in them.' Some people belong living in cities; it's good for them. Others of us don't; it's bad for us. Not everybody needs the same thing.
I've read here about Minna keeping Saami people, and other currently extant minorities in Nordic countries out of SSSS, Windfighter mentions ableism is present in LP, and catbirds does the same about non-European influences going poof by the time SSSS starts. Are we sure those are conscious decisions, and not simply bad writing? [ . . . ] Let me put this bluntly: do you consider her to be a learned person?
The more I read and the more I thought back to SSSS, the more uncomfortably aware I became of how much of Minna's choices and her comments in SSSS I had just brushed off in the past with 'well, she's a recluse, she probably doesn't know any better'
(was hoping she was just kind of boomer, basically)
And here am I, a boomer, who has been hoping Minna was just young and inexperienced, and might grow out of it!
My impression at first, which was during the Emil incident, was that she might be genuinely that clueless, and might have been genuinely taken aback by being attacked for something she had just plain never thought about; and that her choice of characters to depict might also be the same degree of ignorance. Even in the very diverse USA, it's still possible to grow up, in some places and some social circles, just back-of-the-head thinking that 'almost everybody is white' and to therefore, unthinkingly, put only white characters in one's own work.
But it's becoming clearer and clearer that she didn't just have an immediate reaction of 'I never thought about this before and I don't want to think about it now!' Whether or not she started there -- about which I have no idea -- what she's doing now is to determinedly refuse to leave that place of ignorance.
the Saami languages are canonically listed as dead, and author's commentary (in response to a question about that) is that the Saami people "melted into the rest of the population".
When the real-world context is that these are people who have been subject to cultural genocide, and subject to attempts to forcibly "melt them into the population"
Yeah. That is most definitely a problem.
this is what I mean when I said I'm bad at words! LP's technology is bad-message is mostly about twitter or whatever it was called in the comic and doesn't quite??? go as far as saying disabled people suck and it was probably not a consious decision of Minna to even imply that in the comic [ . . .] I didn't mean to say that Minna purposely added "Technology is bad" as a way of saying "disabled people are bad", I just realized that that was A Thing that could be read into it
That's how I, at any rate, took it: not that she necessarily did it on purpose, but that whether or not she meant it, it's in there.
I loved the art, and I invested so much in the characters, and I was eager to know more about the rash origin. Now I think that discovering that origin, as much as healing or reverting it, was completely out of the scope of SSSS. Even more so because Minna wrote herself into a corner
I have the impression that it isn't so much that she writes herself into corners, but that, despite the massive detail in the artwork and all those info pages, there are a lot of things that Minna just hasn't bothered to think through, and never wanted to be bothered to think through.
I doubt she ever worked out exactly what the rash is, or how it came into existence: she just worked out enough of it so she could set up the story. Note that when it serves the story she simply comes up with new kinds of trolls, even if they contradict things she's said about trolls before.
As a saami i had my fear share of "Gods work"
Can I just say that I think this one should win the Typo of the Year award?
Not as a criticism of your English, which is entirely understandable (and massively better than my any-other-language); but because justifiable fear does indeed have a great deal to do with it.
I know some Will brush everything away, saying its not a big deal
It most certainly is a big deal.
Post by: Haiz on April 22, 2021, 12:34:41 PM
second, just wanted to add to my previous post that ended up sounding really bitter about internet/social media - i don't want to come off like "internet bad because people were mean to me", and i think i got too sleepy to add every single thing i had initially planned to bring up. i don't think The Big Bad Social Media is what made people do what they did - a cousin of mine told me about the exact same thing happening to her friend more or less offline, through small town gossip. i also don't think a single person in this thread has said or implied "anyone who likes SSSS or LP is bad", and i don't want to make it seem like someone did.
Spoiler: very bitter feelings • show
i know this wasn't a direct reply to me but i hope it's okay if i... reply? elaborate on what i was trying to say earlier?
Spoiler: show
Post by: SkyWhalePod on April 22, 2021, 12:55:02 PM
Huh what?? I see the newest blog post (http://www.hummingfluff.com/?id=devlog&postin=38), which is exclusively about her changed priorities, and the same paragraph (including typos) inserted atop the previous one (http://www.hummingfluff.com/?id=devlog&postin=37), but the rest - up to and including el numerounozero (http://www.hummingfluff.com/?id=devlog&postin=0), the comments, and the prototype download - looks unchanged ...
Ohhhhh my bad, I just didn't understand how to navigate the site. I was looking for an archive of posts, I didn't see the "previous post" link (which in my defense is very nondescript). I take it back!
Post by: Opaque on April 22, 2021, 01:23:36 PM
so again, i dont have a specific conclusion. nobody is immune to propaganda, neither creators nor audience. i think the best we can do is open spaces for conversations and understanding of different viewpoints - and that requires participants to be open to it. not everyone will be. that said, i think this thread is a surprisingly great example of a space just like that.I love real debates and conversations that don't turn into a caps lock shouting match. Peoples view points may be vastly different from another or may be very similar. That's part of what makes life interesting. Explaining frustrations and concerns where people will read and not just dismiss it is what most comment sections sould aspire to be. But people get so caught up in how they think and feel that they will refuse to listen to anothers veiw. Luckily this is a good place full of caring and sympathetic people who are good listeners/readers.
Post by: esedege on April 22, 2021, 01:28:28 PM
I’ll try and thread the needle between Haiz and catbirds’ last spoilers because I think it’s a discussion worth having. I’m not daring taking it out of spoiler-zone though.
Spoiler: show
Post by: LetsEatBees on April 22, 2021, 01:33:39 PM
Quote
And here am I, a boomer, who has been hoping Minna was just young and inexperienced, and might grow out of it!Well to be fair thorny I've been told that boomer is more a state of mind than a matter of age. :))
Quote
despite the massive detail in the artwork and all those info pages, there are a lot of things that Minna just hasn't bothered to think through, and never wanted to be bothered to think through.
I remember reading somewhere that her thought process for coming up with the idea was “wouldn’t it be interesting if a zombie apocalypse happened where I’m from and culturally Nordic instead of American”, and just kind of built off that. It does make me think back to when I started noticing a narrative and thematic shallowness in SSSS, like there was nothing anything big or meaningful that these story elements are building up to, or if they are they were being saved for later adventures(not a good idea IMHO). It wasn’t a deal breaker for me and I kept following up to now basically, but it does kind of reinforce my opinion that she doesn’t write quite as well as she draws.
I hope this doesn’t sound mean but please let me know if it does. :(
(PS I was not around for the Emil incident, had to learn second hand and don't remember when or how)
Post by: thorny on April 22, 2021, 02:57:42 PM
I started noticing a narrative and thematic shallowness in SSSS, like there was nothing anything big or meaningful that these story elements are building up to, or if they are they were being saved for later adventures
Yes. And I'm not at all sure that later adventures wouldn't also have been mostly a matter of 'this would be a neat story to tell in this world' or at most 'better tie up this loose end.'
For a while I thought there might be a theme of 'miscommunication can cause serious problems, even among the well-intentioned'; but she didn't seem to be doing anything with that either; she's seemed to just think that it's funny when the crew doesn't understand each other, not to be pointing out that Tuuri died because of miscommunication or anything else of the sort -- I'm not sure that she thought of that as even having had anything to do with the same sort of miscommunication, as there wasn't a joke in it.
There isn't anything essentially wrong with just telling neat stories with no deeper theme; but it is going to leave some readers feeling that something's lacking. And it also leaves lots of room for unintentional themes, and/or casually assumed ones, to sneak in there.
Post by: Jitter on April 22, 2021, 06:26:34 PM
So, in hindsight, it should have been glaringly obvious* that the Sami were not forgotten, they had to have been left out on purpose. Whether the purpose was “I seriously don’t want any non-majority-Nordic people in my nice white world” or just “I can’t be bothered to learn anything about them” it is in any case bad, even if the first alternative is even worse than the second one.
* should have been obvious to me, as a Finn, and therefore knowing the geography, climate, population etc. factors as well as having a fairly good idea how much Minna likely knows about the Sami as a minimum from having been schooled in Finland.
The fat jokes bothered me too, and she’s also made some comments on the same vein in the streams. Even after I commented that “as a fat person I don’t like this turn of the conversation”. I chose to ignore but 😔
Isn’t it weird and actually wonderful that we have such a fandom here? Just to think what sort of crowd a fanbase for this work could have become. Actually now I wonder whether there is another fan group somewhere with the completely opposite ideas, celebrating SSSS (sheesh the acronym seems Very Unfortunate right at this moment) for its whiteness, not despite it. Shuddersome to think about it.
Haiz the entire conversation whether one can like a Problematic Work or a work by a Problematic Author is an important one to have. I for one think that yes, I am allowed to like Problematic Works but it’s important to be aware of the problematic issues. Sometimes the awareness sours the work, but that can’t be helped. However I still find myself blissfully ignoring Problematic Things to keep my enjoyment of something alive. Like I just have done with SSSS. I have to look hard upon myself. Not for loving SSSS, but for willfully looking the other way from too many things until now.
Post by: Haiz on April 22, 2021, 07:12:39 PM
Haiz the entire conversation whether one can like a Problematic Work or a work by a Problematic Author is an important one to have. I for one think that yes, I am allowed to like Problematic Works but it’s important to be aware of the problematic issues. Sometimes the awareness sours the work, but that can’t be helped. However I still find myself blissfully ignoring Problematic Things to keep my enjoyment of something alive. Like I just have done with SSSS. I have to look hard upon myself. Not for loving SSSS, but for willfully looking the other way from too many things until now.
yeah!! i think it's like... more important to build a working understanding of how racism and colonialism works irl, than to fall at the stake of whether or not reading a webcomic by in and of itself makes you racist, if it makes sense? cause media and creators are just parts of a larger reality. it's often easier and less scary to pick at stories we are told than to apply the same view upon everything else around us. the other way around as well, by acknowledging that I'm Starting To Think Maybe This Story Is Telling Me Something Rather Unfortunate.. you might slowly start to understand just how pervasive those threads are in our own cultures and surroundings. it's not JUST media is what i'm saying - it probably gets this treatment because it's easier to cast away a book than a family member, or an institution, or years and years of oppression...
Spoiler: show
Spoiler: show
Post by: Kevin_Redcrow on April 23, 2021, 12:13:02 AM
Her reaction to the criticism tells you if they're conscious decisions or something she accidentally overlooked. SSSS has been going on for years, people have been pointing out the lack of non-white characters in the setting for years. At no point has Minna responded with anything like "it was an oversight on my part, but I understand why it matters to some/ I'd do it differently if I had to do it again/ I will include non-white characters now because I want to correct my oversight". She did imply that PoC might have survived in other areas but never went as far as to explicitly state it. Just baiting, baiting, baiting, like with the queerness: write in such a way that both someone who wants a world without PoC and someone who doesn't can enjoy the story. It's one of the things that makes me the most wary about the comic and tbh a big reason why I've been distancing myself from it even before LP was published.
I also need to point out that the comic does not exist in a void. Europeans especially will be more aware about the fact that Norse mythology specifically, and European folklore more generally, have been coopted by far right groups, and online they are often used as signals for this type of views. As sad as it makes me to say it, having been a fan of these things, I am now automatically wary when a webcomic, band, blog or whatever is steeped too much into this culture without explicit signs that they welcome the categories of people that the far right hates.
Okay, now it makes sense that this person posting on page 566 of Adventure One was drawn to SSSS:
Quote
[alias name omitted] • 2 years agoWhen I first read this and the angry responses from other folks, I was smugly thinking that this guy thought he found an aryan homeland in SSSS, and Pastor Anne's appearance blew that out of the water. Looks like the joke is on me.
This page makes no sense. Women can't be priests, that's an utterly heretical notion.
Maybe that's why she's been cursed to roam the Earth
As far as the setting goes, I thought that the lack of people of color had more to do with Scandinavia being the last part of Earth supporting humans(and yes, I'm aware that there are African Muslims who have immigrated to the region); that the whiteness was merely incidental.
I got curious and looked up other posts by this guy, and one of those posts was blatently anti-Semetic.
That Norse Mythology has been co-opted by the racist far-right is sad. Not that I've adopted Thor, Odin, or Freya as my spiritual guides personally, it just sucks that when a group co-opts something it becomes indelibly theirs in the minds of the broader culture.
Here in the United Snakes, the far-right is rather fond of waving large amerikan flags. It seems to be a preemptive challenge: "My views are right because of Flag!" So now I can't look at an amerikan flag larger than one in a school classroom without thinking of a racist, imperialist, aristocratic, parasitic empire.
I thought the lack of even mild Boy Love/Girl Love/off-panel sexual behavior was due to the commonality of these in webcomics; that Minna wanted SSSS to be acceptable for All Ages. I thought the stated theme about SSSS being about Friendship, etc. etc. was just fine and even heartwarming.
Sure, I wouldn't mind if Sigrun and Mikkel made a lot of noise in the dark, thus preventing sleep for the rest of the crew(that would be a cute, if not trite gag in itself). Nor would I mind if Emil kept trying to hold Lalli's hand on the sly, or if Reynir went around being an indiscreet voyeur to all of this type of thing.
But I am cool with the idea of SSSS being about friendship and growing as a person.
Post by: catbirds on April 23, 2021, 12:14:09 AM
From the ever dark depths of my heart i really hope youll understand i mean this in the sincerest way possible when i tell you that i understand exactly how you feel and have seen many examples of what you describe here.
Uhffff... Well, thanks for understanding? I mean, I think I did get a bit ahead of myself last night, but thanks.
Moose, it is a big deal. Sure, some people will brush it off but most of the people here won't. We like to listen and understand peoples feelings. Your concerns won't be brushed off as overanalyzing. Frankly, a lot of indigenous people would survive a troll infested world. They're really strong and wouldn't be pushovers when it comes to survival. These people try so hard to keep their culture and language alive despite others trying to force conformity.
Yeah, I agree. Minna's body of work has spanned a period of time where (to my knowledge/experience) people went from brushing off analyses of works through a race/diversity lens as "overreacting" to realizing that there is a great amount of truth to them, and going over all this even in retrospect is vital especially because she is still producing art to this day. Her ignorance to the struggles and strength of indigenous people in a region where she lives herself and her refusal to learn or make an effort to include them just should not be accepted.
As a side note, I think the only piece of media that I've seen represent Saami people (at all...) has been that Christmas movie on Netflix from a few years ago (Klaus??), but it did seem to be a positive representation so that's something. At least, I thought it was a cute part of the movie.
And about the fat jokes in aRTD, they did make me uncomfortable, as well as the one instance of Hannu using the R slur (I think?). It might have been overlooked at the time of its publishing because aRTD is a pretty old webcomic at this point, and boy was that sort of thing everywhere on the internet back then :(
My impression at first, which was during the Emil incident, was that she might be genuinely that clueless, and might have been genuinely taken aback by being attacked for something she had just plain never thought about; and that her choice of characters to depict might also be the same degree of ignorance. Even in the very diverse USA, it's still possible to grow up, in some places and some social circles, just back-of-the-head thinking that 'almost everybody is white' and to therefore, unthinkingly, put only white characters in one's own work.
But it's becoming clearer and clearer that she didn't just have an immediate reaction of 'I never thought about this before and I don't want to think about it now!' Whether or not she started there -- about which I have no idea -- what she's doing now is to determinedly refuse to leave that place of ignorance.
On the topic of learning about representing a diverse set of people, just based on when Emil said [redacted], Minna seems to be a textbook case of the "I'm making an offensive joke about you to help you!" kind of person. Which is something that I've seen in a lot of white people in rural nordic areas, but also not something that's impossible to step out of even though I've yet to successfully pry anyone out of that mindset myself. I mean, she has said on stream that she enjoys South Park, which in my opinion has singlehandedly set back social justice in America and... Europe, apparently, by an entire decade (hyperbole, somewhat).
Which brings me to Haiz's reply
i know this wasn't a direct reply to me but i hope it's okay if i... reply? elaborate on what i was trying to say earlier?
Spoiler: looooooong reply • show
Esedege, I have no clue how to frame your reply in a quote, so I'll just go straight at it:
Spoiler: this is shorter • show
Isn’t it weird and actually wonderful that we have such a fandom here? Just to think what sort of crowd a fanbase for this work could have become. Actually now I wonder whether there is another fan group somewhere with the completely opposite ideas, celebrating SSSS (sheesh the acronym seems Very Unfortunate right at this moment) for its whiteness, not despite it. Shuddersome to think about it.
Yep, this is an utterly terrifying thought! Evil twin SSSS forum, may you never gain prominence.
Post by: Grade E cat on April 23, 2021, 06:13:22 AM
Esedege, I have no clue how to frame your reply in a quote, so I'll just go straight at it:Spoiler: this is shorter • show
As someone who still has great potential to be the person scratching their head, let me tell you this. Some people may not get it immediately, but will keep it in a corner of their heads. And after a few extra weeks, months or even years spent simply continuing to live their with what you told them in a coner of their head, they will finally understand what you meant. What you told them may serve as a base to build on or add to an already exisintg base, and while it's entirely your choice to share or not, whether you share or not may make a difference on the information they have on the subject. My current understanding of the situation of minorities I'm not part of is not built entirely off what I got from a single source or person. It's made out of like five to ten sources at least, and having only the information from any single one of them would have left me scratching my head.
Post by: Jitter on April 23, 2021, 07:04:30 AM
I treasure a memory of explaining herd immunity to an anti-vaxxer (this was long before the current pandemic) who was making some outrageous claims and getting thanked by a by-reader who said they had finally understood and see now why vaccines are important. Usually you don’t get the feedback, but in al, things (public) internet there are more readers than actively engage.
Post by: LetsEatBees on April 23, 2021, 07:50:12 AM
This doesn’t really change my rating for SSSS (5/10 – 6/10) but that just seems more like a condemnation of me for not being interested in better media cus that seems to be what I wind up obsessing over. On the plus side it’s opened my eyes to webcomics could be and vastly improved my opinion of them, whatever becomes my next big fixation is probably going to be another webcomic.
Sometimes I feel like a bad person for focusing on technical problems instead of problematic content, I feel that they are equally important or can drown out good or bad content if the problem is all encompassing enough.
For some background I used to into a particular anime (for a few years too long) that had the public perception of being “cringe” and mostly from the kind of people who bully people for liking anime anyway, but currently has the reputation of being problematic(and by extension, poison) by basically everyone. And I’m terrified to suggest I unironically liked it, it just reinforced the reasons why I don’t generally talk about media I like, joining the forum is this forum only time I broke that rule.
Again, this is all conjecture, I don’t want to ruin peoples’ day or anything, I’m really new to all of this. This whole event just affected me very deeply and I feel self-conscious about that, like it shouldn’t affect me but it does.
Post by: Grade E cat on April 23, 2021, 08:12:07 AM
To add on Cat’s commentary, in internet discussions there is always the collateral readership. So evwn if your explanation doesn’t make any difference to the person you are talking to, someone else just reading and not commenting may get something important out of it.
I treasure a memory of explaining herd immunity to an anti-vaxxer (this was long before the current pandemic) who was making some outrageous claims and getting thanked by a by-reader who said they had finally understood and see now why vaccines are important. Usually you don’t get the feedback, but in al, things (public) internet there are more readers than actively engage.
Good addition. Some of my current knowledge was picked up from collateral readership.
@LetsEatBees I personally believe that completely unproblematic works don't exist, and am lucky enough to be able to enjoy something all while being aware that some groups of people are being badly treated in it. However, upon enjoying such works, the are things I have gradually discovered to be important to remember :
1) Do not let that bad portrayal influence the sort of person you vote for.
2) Do not let it be the only piece of media depicting that group that you consume.
3) Do not let it influence how you treat a member of that group you run into or meet in real life or online.
4) If you would like to be allowed to like something without being bothered about it, other people should be allowed to not like or turn away from it without being bothered. I think the latter is doubly true if you know there is something problematic in the work, as there are people out there for which that element alone will be enough to make it unwatchable to them.
Post by: esedege on April 23, 2021, 08:31:01 AM
Spoiler: this is shorter • show
I subscribe totally what both Jitter and Grade E cat have added to the discussion regarding the first part of this spoiler. ^-^ As I said, now I'm conflicted just thinking about watching Silence of the Lambs, but I'm happy with it being like that.
I think that reaction you mention derives from the fact that you –sadly– live what they are criticising. I've found myself reacting the same way when somebody wanted to explain to me why 'I don't care that you love another man as long as whatever you do you do it in private' is homophobic to the core. But, in order for them to win other people over, people that are oblivious, they have to start at the basics. The most basic of basics. They have to educate people, so they cannot asume for their audience to have any literacy in the matters they talk about. As I said, I watched the trans and queer fights for equality and fair representation with sympathy but distance. I had no real nor substantiated opinion on the matter. If Contrapoints would have started criticising me for being none the wiser, or setting the starting point too far from me as an average guy, I would not have been able to relate to her. Of course that's familiar terrain for people already living those situations.
Spoiler: Steven Universe, some spoilers ahead • show
Spoiler: show
: blushes a bit :
Ok, maybe I'm not that aloof.
Sometimes I feel like a bad person for focusing on technical problems instead of problematic content, I feel that they are equally important or can drown out good or bad content if the problem is all encompassing enough.
I concur it's hard not to appreciate the technical marvels of problematic works, but it also feels wrong to do so.
Post by: Maple on April 23, 2021, 09:01:18 AM
Spoiler: show
I want to add a bit to this too. There's actually a video on youtube about this very idea of "do we still enjoy good content even if it's made by people who don't have good views?"
Spoiler: show
Post by: Grade E cat on April 23, 2021, 11:03:30 AM
Spoiler: show
Post by: Haiz on April 23, 2021, 11:44:03 AM
As a side note, I think the only piece of media that I've seen represent Saami people (at all...) has been that Christmas movie on Netflix from a few years ago (Klaus??), but it did seem to be a positive representation so that's something. At least, I thought it was a cute part of the movie.
And about the fat jokes in aRTD, they did make me uncomfortable, as well as the one instance of Hannu using the R slur (I think?). It might have been overlooked at the time of its publishing because aRTD is a pretty old webcomic at this point, and boy was that sort of thing everywhere on the internet back then :(
On the topic of learning about representing a diverse set of people, just based on when Emil said [redacted], Minna seems to be a textbook case of the "I'm making an offensive joke about you to help you!" kind of person. Which is something that I've seen in a lot of white people in rural nordic areas, but also not something that's impossible to step out of even though I've yet to successfully pry anyone out of that mindset myself. I mean, she has said on stream that she enjoys South Park, which in my opinion has singlehandedly set back social justice in America and... Europe, apparently, by an entire decade (hyperbole, somewhat).
Which brings me to Haiz's replySpoiler: looooooong reply • show
yes, Klaus is one of the very few medias outside of scandinavia that depicts saami people!! they got a young saami girl from tromsø who does not at all speak english to play márgu, which is honestly adorable and fantastic. disney's frozen and frozen 2 also KIND OF portray saami people, albeit under a different name. whether or not it's Good Representation is not up for me to decide and as far as i know, opinions among saami people differ because they're not a monolith and there's so little representation to choose from. REPRESENTATION IS A COMPLEX TOPIC
and yep, hannu does indeed say the R-slur. i reread the comic sometime last year, partially through the physical copy and partially through the online version, as was honestly shocked to not only see it on print, but that nobody had pointed it out in the comment section. WELP!
i don't think i have a lot of clever things to reply to your reply to me, i think we are very much in accordance and i'm just nodding along as i sip my tea.
i really relate to having a difficult relationship with SSSS - it feels like for years, my relationship with it has been facebook status 'it's complicated' as i've tried to reconnect to it, find the parts within it that were and still are important to me, parts that have brought me joy, only to get dissappointed by something in it or its creator afterwards. i think the thing that made it most difficult to enjoy SSSS fully, however, was how HARD it was to bring up these topics before. there would be a LOT of people VERY INTERESTED in shutting down the discussion, handwave all concerns away - actually my first interaction with a SSSS fan online was some guy on tumblr telling me not to worry about it. some other guy on this very forum declared his hate for me in the comfort corner just for bringing up that racism exists and affects everyone in the most lukewarm way i could have. i remember a 13 year old getting sent hate messages for drawing the ssss characters with different skin colors. i don't want to sound spiteful, but the fact that so many of these behaviours happened unchecked and made the fandom unsafe and unwelcoming for people of color is one of the main reasons i no longer felt good interacting with the community, and i'm a white person who was not directly affected by these things. i wish i had been a better ally. the fact that we are able to have these conversations again the way we are having them right now is a GREAT relief, even if circumstances are... kind of depressing. i know it's not a Solution. i know it doesn't make the comics better. but the conversations are happening and i am very glad for that.
To add on Cat’s commentary, in internet discussions there is always the collateral readership. So even if your explanation doesn’t make any difference to the person you are talking to, someone else just reading and not commenting may get something important out of it.
I treasure a memory of explaining herd immunity to an anti-vaxxer (this was long before the current pandemic) who was making some outrageous claims and getting thanked by a by-reader who said they had finally understood and see now why vaccines are important. Usually you don’t get the feedback, but in al, things (public) internet there are more readers than actively engage.
it's absolutely true!!! i too have gotten feedback from collateral readership, thanking me for explaining things even to a thankless participant. i think for a long time, that was one of the things that kept me speaking up and having difficult discussions. until i, uh, burnt out from extending too much good faith on people who were not giving me any back. it's both important to have discussions AND know when to take care of your own self and not to overextend yourself, because the internet is never going to run out of people with awful views and opinions. for all the arguments i've made just now on the Importance Of Having A Discussion, it's also important to remember there are people who will use your willingness to discuss as a weapon against you, to tire you out, to make you vulnerable. i also want to address that the "duty of discussion" often falls on marginalized groups who have to explain their point of view over and over again without compensation.
... all of this wasn't meant as a counteropinion, just an addition.
I want to add a bit to this too. There's actually a video on youtube about this very idea of "do we still enjoy good content even if it's made by people who don't have good views?"Spoiler: show
Spoiler: show
Post by: Vulpes on April 24, 2021, 09:11:11 AM
Post by: thegreyarea on April 24, 2021, 11:20:43 AM
Grade E cat, thanks for that video - the whole channel looks fascinating. As someone trying to navigate LGBTQ+ and race issues sensitively (from a very privileged cis gendered, hetero, white, middle class perspective) it looks like a great resource. That was a really thoughtful analysis, I look forward to looking at some more of the content from the channel. Also now I feel a bit better about my relationship with SSSS; seeing the LP link below the comic still grates, but I can avoid scrolling that far. ;)Seconding Vulpes in all the above, Grade E Cat!
(Including the perspective and the irritation with the LP link...)
Post by: groco on April 24, 2021, 02:13:12 PM
When I first read SSSS, I loved how unique it was. The nordic setting and mythology were great. In particular, I thought it was really cool for a Finn to write the world she did. Strong Finnish protagonists in a world where they’re allowed to return to their old gods and culture. It made me happy to see, and I thought maybe these were things Minna might wish to see in the real world as well.
With this recent news, and in looking back and closer at past things, and reading this forum...it’s so hypocritical.
How the Saami were erased and wiped out in the story, when the Nordic countries treat them and other groups like the Romani so horribly. Especially when in the story's universe, the Saami would have had a much higher chance of surviving, thriving, rather than being wiped out. To me, it’s like, you, Finnish Minna, in this universe, can spark new life to and give back the lost traditions of the Finnish, but the Saami aren’t allowed the same? Seriously? I think that’s one clear example of the kind of selfishness Minna possesses, and that she puts into her work. We’ve seen her apathy towards marginalized groups, but thinking about this, really, wow, is like framing it all and stepping back to look at the finished piece.
I thought it was neat of her to write about Finnish culture, in a world undoing the layers of forced assimilation to christian and scandavian culture, but now she’s apart of that oppressive christian culture, and now acts like it is the one being repressed. I am not at all saying converting to christianity is regressive. But reading the themes in SSSS, and then in LP, they clash. Maybe I am giving her too much credit as a Finn to see the truth and recall factual history more clearly than most.
And though she claims SSSS will continue as it was planned, these stark differences in ideologies and pathos make my hope wane, and at the very least, it completely sucks the soul out of SSSS.
I know I will not read any of her future work, and will not financially support her.
Something is very, very wrong with her, but she is sticking her fingers in her ears and barreling ahead with producing work that indoctrinates people into antisemitic, racist, xenophobic conspiracy theories in a “I’m so oppressed” christian echo chamber full of yes-men. So, my empathy wanes.
Post by: Jitter on April 24, 2021, 02:33:02 PM
Post by: Engelszorn on April 24, 2021, 05:12:55 PM
Post by: PyroDesu on April 24, 2021, 07:36:19 PM
Spoiler: show
My personal opinion regarding it: he completely missed the point of the reaction and critique.
The only part of substance that I can meaningfully respond to is that yes, "there should be tons of interesting stuff to discuss and speculate about [the two main characters who are NOT Christians'] background, education, support network, values, viewpoints, experience of reality etc." Which Minna seemed to deliberately exclude from the comic. In favor of the "Christian homemaker". The show is stolen in the comic itself, not the critique.
Even then, the vast majority of the reaction is to Minna's own writing in the author's notes.
Also, that Dalai Lama quote is very... ironic, considering Minna's actions and words.
Post by: ChascaKhuno on April 24, 2021, 08:49:13 PM
I might be reading too much into it, but these were my immediate thoughts on the matter.
Post by: Windfighter on April 24, 2021, 09:36:50 PM
Spoiler: enjoy • show
-----
And with that I'm gonna be dropping off to bed *flops*
Post by: thorny on April 24, 2021, 11:41:39 PM
Here in the United Snakes, the far-right is rather fond of waving large amerikan flags. It seems to be a preemptive challenge: "My views are right because of Flag!" So now I can't look at an amerikan flag larger than one in a school classroom without thinking of a racist, imperialist, aristocratic, parasitic empire.
Way back in the 1970's, I bought a small American flag to carry at protest marches. It's my flag and my country too; they are Not Allowed to claim it for a specific political position (especially not for positions I disagree with!)
I wore the poor thing out, between fall 2016 and the beginning of the covid shutdown. I'm gonna have to get another one.
As someone who still has great potential to be the person scratching their head, let me tell you this. Some people may not get it immediately, but will keep it in a corner of their heads. And after a few extra weeks, months or even years spent simply continuing to live their with what you told them in a coner of their head, they will finally understand what you meant. What you told them may serve as a base to build on or add to an already exisintg base, and while it's entirely your choice to share or not, whether you share or not may make a difference on the information they have on the subject. My current understanding of the situation of minorities I'm not part of is not built entirely off what I got from a single source or person. It's made out of like five to ten sources at least, and having only the information from any single one of them would have left me scratching my head.
To add on Cat’s commentary, in internet discussions there is always the collateral readership. So evwn if your explanation doesn’t make any difference to the person you are talking to, someone else just reading and not commenting may get something important out of it.
Both of the above.
Online, there are always more people reading/watching. And people do change their minds -- but very rarely all at once, and very rarely in public in the middle of a thread or in the middle of a conversation; even a private conversation. It's very often an accumulation of things over time that does it -- the back of the head is thinking things over while the front is still arguing its old position; then at some point, maybe in the middle of the night while the person's asleep, opinions shift.
This whole event just affected me very deeply and I feel self-conscious about that, like it shouldn’t affect me but it does.
Of course we're affected by stories. Telling stories is the thing that humans do. We create the world, in large part, out of the stories we tell each other (occasionally of course a cliff comes crashing down on people, no matter if their stories all said that cliffs don't do that. But the survivors will make a story out of that too --)
There is nothing that matters more to humans than the stories that we tell.
In case anyone’s interested, there’s another comment from Jojusu, who has identified himself as Minna’s father, in the Disqus comments under page 417.
That's an odd post. It seems to ignore entirely the fact that many of Minna's readers felt attacked by the comic and/or the author's text, and not to be addressing any point of the outrage and injury at all. And yes, PyroDesu's right -- it isn't the readers who are missing any perspective about the non-Christian characters; it's that Minna didn't put any of that in there.
And this snip, which I'm spoiling just because Windfighter did, is also very to the point:
Spoiler: enjoy • show
-- saying everybody must become Christian seems to me, also, a really, really odd way of defending Uighurs.
Post by: Róisín on April 25, 2021, 12:52:04 AM
Post by: Tarnagh on April 25, 2021, 12:56:03 AM
Also the part where one of the bunnies rants on the internet about her followers struck me as a bit too personal, it suggests that she really has not gotten over the whole "Emil" incident and at that point I just lol'd, she might be less nice than I thought she was.I've been away for about a week so I'm still catching up on my reading but I really wanted to comment on this before I go to bed.
I think that's perceptively spot-on. I also lol'd upon reading your comment, because this didn't occur to me at the time I read LP. But you're right. In hindsight, I can see that being a direct "FU" to her past (and future, at the time) critics.
Post by: steadfastjewel on April 25, 2021, 01:31:46 AM
Haven't been active on this forum in ages, but I wanted to log in and state how valuable I found this thread to be. I drifted away from Stand Still when the pandemic began to really sink in, both because the plague premise was not escapism anymore and because of the nebulous weird vibes mentioned earlier. I haven't contributed much to the fan community, only a handful of old fanarts, but this just feels so... personal. I don't mind my old works being on here, but it just feels very wrong to me that someone out there roaming the internet might see my drawing of Sigrun and get sucked down this increasingly bitter rabbit hole*
*ouch, pun
I will concur with some of the earlier posts that I was willing to gloss over some of Minna's dicier past comments with the old "oh, she doesn't know any better, she's European" argument, in years past. That was wrong. Reclusive or not, the internet makes research easy and refusing to learn from mistakes is not a good look. Thank you to superdark for posting the stream transcript, I had heard a vague allusion to "BLM comments", but the context was valuable, if disappointing.
The confrontational nature of this comic does feel extremely bait-y. I think earlier commenters hit the nail on the head, that no matter how people react to this, it fulfils a confirmation bias loop. If they love the Christian messaging, they're lovely people. If they're confused or upset, not to worry, they're just helpless sinners.
These past few months have raised up a lot of weird religious grief in me. The church I grew up in is dissolving, and my parent informed me that their sister organization has far less charitable views as regards queer folks (speaking of revelations that darken years of memories!) I lost a childhood friend to a very culty Christian group, a wound that was recently reopened by one of my remaining friends confessing how she was aggressively courted by the same group. I hope that whatever people Minna might fall in with, that they might act as a moderating influence, rather than a further radicalising one. I wouldn't blame her for snapping under the strain of the last year. But the utter confrontational nature of this has been very... unhappy-feeling, to me.
I apologize if I am centering my own emotions too much in this post. I feel like I have had a cold weight in my chest, these past few weeks, and to see so many of the old familiar faces and insightful newcomers talking through their same discomforts... It's like having a hand to hold, through all of the feelings. Thank you all, so much.
PS, if it is not too far off topic, I would like to mention another story a 'bit' like LP (or at least, what I think LP was...trying for?) That story is 'The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas', by Ursula K Le Guin. While it doesn't discuss technology, I think the questions it raises come across with infinitely more punch. And it's only 4 pages, to boot.
I'll link it, if the mods are all right with that?
Hard Content Warning Below-
Spoiler: show
https://learning.hccs.edu/faculty/emily.klotz/engl1302-6/readings/the-ones-who-walk-away-from-omelas-ursula-le-guin/view (https://learning.hccs.edu/faculty/emily.klotz/engl1302-6/readings/the-ones-who-walk-away-from-omelas-ursula-le-guin/view)
(Link from Houston Community College)
Post by: catbirds on April 25, 2021, 01:39:21 AM
I treasure a memory of explaining herd immunity to an anti-vaxxer (this was long before the current pandemic) who was making some outrageous claims and getting thanked by a by-reader who said they had finally understood and see now why vaccines are important. Usually you don’t get the feedback, but in al, things (public) internet there are more readers than actively engage.
This is somewhat encouraging to hear, especially in this late phase of the pandemic. A lot of videos out there explain the concept really well, but it is very unlikely that an anti-vaxxer will go out of their way to click on a video titled "HERD IMMUNITY AND VACCINES" or some such.
And on that same topic, perhaps there's a much larger portion of people who simply decided to put down their tablets/turn off their computers after they read the bunny comic because it took a LOT of energy for me to unpack all this when I first read it. At least, I saw firsthand what went down in the instagram comment section when it was first released and most of it was praise. And even I had to sit down and think about it for six hours before I could make like three incoherent tweets about it. It's weird thinking how far we've gotten in this discussion since then.
I think that reaction you mention derives from the fact that you –sadly– live what they are criticising. I've found myself reacting the same way when somebody wanted to explain to me why 'I don't care that you love another man as long as whatever you do you do it in private' is homophobic to the core. But, in order for them to win other people over, people that are oblivious, they have to start at the basics. The most basic of basics. They have to educate people, so they cannot asume for their audience to have any literacy in the matters they talk about.
Yeah, you got it down pretty much. Sometimes, like now, people who watch those videos end up with pretty meaningful understandings of the topics, too! Not flawless, perhaps, but a more sympathetic one coming from a video that was very well researched. I believe they even cite their sources for further reading, so while it shouldn't be your only source on these issues, it's a good place to start?
And I do think heteronormativity/outright homophobia is a half-decent analogue in discussions in internet communities where gender/sexuality is frequently discussed. It's still not perfect, but at least you've gotten somewhere from there.
Re: your small gush over SU, I'm very happy for the way they're portrayed in the cartoon. Far too many shows do the exact thing you've talked about, made out LGBTQ+ people to be the "weird" ones. Even ones for kids. I don't think I have a way to watch it at the moment, but I'll try to find one!
I don't have many things to add to this today, though! Words have flown from my brain, but thank you for understanding.
yes, Klaus is one of the very few medias outside of scandinavia that depicts saami people!! they got a young saami girl from tromsø who does not at all speak english to play márgu, which is honestly adorable and fantastic.
...
and yep, hannu does indeed say the R-slur. i reread the comic sometime last year, partially through the physical copy and partially through the online version, as was honestly shocked to not only see it on print, but that nobody had pointed it out in the comment section. WELP!
Yes!! I loved Márgu in the movie and the way they included the language barrier was great in my opinion. The fact that they had a saami person voice it is also very good, since animated films as a medium don't even require it.
As for the R slur business, and all the other potentially offensive jokes in aRTD, I don't think we have any ability to go back and change it now (and Minna isn't quite in the business of doing that kind of thing on her own, as we know), but it's good to go back and be able to see that it's not helpful to make such jokes. I read through the first few pages just now, and a fat joke is literally just there Immediately :(
i really relate to having a difficult relationship with SSSS - it feels like for years, my relationship with it has been facebook status 'it's complicated' as i've tried to reconnect to it, find the parts within it that were and still are important to me, parts that have brought me joy, only to get dissappointed by something in it or its creator afterwards. i think the thing that made it most difficult to enjoy SSSS fully, however, was how HARD it was to bring up these topics before.
Absolutely, I think most SSSS fans who've had conflicting or downright negative feelings about the bunny comic have gotten on board with this feeling now, even if they were pretty alright with SSSS prior to it. And missed the offensive things Minna has said. I wasn't there for incidents you mentioned (which is probably why I'm able to be here without much discomfort today), but this place feels like it's gotten significantly better. No, the comic itself is not going to suddenly become Diverse and Inclusive. In fact, we know now that it's about to reach its end because the creator has taken a sharp turn in the opposite direction. And yes, talking about this kind of thing is incredibly exhausting and it's unfortunate that a lot of people like you have become distant from the fandom because of how hard it is to bring up. A lot of people right now might also be feeling a similar kind of guilt, too. But like the example that Jitter brought up, these conversations might have a greater impact than you can see!
Urgh, I really don't have much to add, I just think it's good that there are people like you who've made active efforts to be empathetic, and if what drives others to do that is guilt for their past actions, then so be it. And I hope people like you do stay, somewhat, even if it is just for discussions about Hard Topics.
[REDACTED for privacy]
In response to the comment by the father of Minna:
1. Yes, Windy and Pyro are right, it misses the point.
2. The proof for this is that Minna's author's notes basically explained her entire reason/motive/reasoning behind the comic, and none of it mentions Uyghurs. The alternative explanation to this is that Minna is simply a bad writer who does not know how to write about social issues and, uh, human rights violations, but requiring Translators' Notes from her own father is another level of egregious.
3. Some Christians changing the bible to be slightly more inclusive is absolutely NOT acceptable as an analogy to this.
[REDACTED for privacy]
There are various ways to discuss whether the author's intent should be taken into account when analyzing a story, but in this case we got an entire essay discussing the author's intent, and it was Not to help the Uyghurs. To me, it would make more sense if an author, especially a white author in one of the places with the highest standard of living, who cared about this issue used their platform to fundraise or spread information about it. Think about how many people would have become aware of it if Minna's thousands of twitter followers were linked to an article about it! Also, she has a gigantic Instagram following that could learn a lot, too! But if the bunny comic were actually about the Uyghurs, then I think my glasses prescription must be pretty severely out of date.
Post by: Róisín on April 25, 2021, 03:34:39 AM
Post by: Haiz on April 25, 2021, 03:40:51 AM
... okay maybe *i'm* the one exaggerating comments now. i'll freely admit it, i'm just chasing that catharsis right now. i just wanted to talk about how bringing up "actually minna cares about the muslims that are being oppressed for their faith!" as some sort of gotcha isn't... very reassuring? if she is such a champion for freedom of faith and speech she can say so herself, or better yet, show so herself. 'cause as many have pointed out, LP really Does Not give that impression, nor has its creator said or done anything to give any other impression.
in danger of Engaging with a Disingenuous Comment: i read the comic, what, three times? (something something watching trainwrecks) and homemaker bunny is FINE. nobody has a problem with homemaker bunny. i have not seen anyone express their distaste for homemaker bunny. nobody is trying to erase homemaker bunny's christian narrative. nobody is citing homemaker bunny as the actual proselytizing element of the comic and You Know That. i WOULD discuss how teacher bunny is one of the most upsetting characters since she literally uncritically teaches kids propaganda about 'trash people' and how they deserve to be shunned, and there is no reflection on her part over how she has directly contributed to innocent bunnies getting punished by the evil government secret police - and hey, maybe we ARE supposed to read between the lines when she realizes "oh heck they labeled my daughter a trash person and i KNOW she is not a trash person!", but it also feels like that requires more intentional reading comprehension than... almost everything else in the comic (the alexa lookalike LITERALLY says 'i spy'. truly a masterstroke of subtle storytelling). i think this thread has discussed how the story as it is is not doing a good job of serving its own narrative multiple times - the story WOULD, in theory, benefit from another 70 pages where they can actually delve into a more nuanced and complex exploration of the Themes and Topics, but that is assuming LP wasn't hastily thrown together to slide a very specific agenda of remember to repent and convert xoxo under the door with the guise of ACTUALLY warning us about the dangers of totalitarian regimes and corporations controlling social media. there is no thematical cohesion between the story and that agenda. it's like putting a dagger inside a pillow and trying to convince everyone the pillow is 100% soft you guys. why are you upset about the soft pillow. would it be better if the pillow was BIGGER?? why aren't we discussing what REALLY matters here: pillow covers. everyone is making such a big stink about the dagger!! as if none of you have ever used knives!! the HIPOcRISY
yes i had about 4 hours of sleep tonight i hope i shan't regret any similes and exaggerations later
As for the R slur business, and all the other potentially offensive jokes in aRTD, I don't think we have any ability to go back and change it now (and Minna isn't quite in the business of doing that kind of thing on her own, as we know), but it's good to go back and be able to see that it's not helpful to make such jokes. I read through the first few pages just now, and a fat joke is literally just there Immediately :(sighs. yeah. it's dissappointing. i know commenting on it wouldn't have helped, probably not then and definitely not now - it's more just... looking around and trying to see if ANYONE is going to push back on it, and feeling a little dejected when people are just letting it slide, maybe even completely unnoticed. that's what's important to me about the discussions too - finding that you're not alone in feeling hurt or dissappointed by something, and the validation that not everything should be readily accepted.
... for all we know, maybe someone did comment and it got deleted. but considering this must've been several years ago, when saying the r slur was more "accepted", i think it's more likely nobody really cared.
PS, if it is not too far off topic, I would like to mention another story a 'bit' like LP (or at least, what I think LP was...trying for?) That story is 'The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas', by Ursula K Le Guin. While it doesn't discuss technology, I think the questions it raises come across with infinitely more punch. And it's only 4 pages, to boot.
I'll link it, if the mods are all right with that?
Hard Content Warning Below-Spoiler: show
https://learning.hccs.edu/faculty/emily.klotz/engl1302-6/readings/the-ones-who-walk-away-from-omelas-ursula-le-guin/view (https://learning.hccs.edu/faculty/emily.klotz/engl1302-6/readings/the-ones-who-walk-away-from-omelas-ursula-le-guin/view)
(Link from Houston Community College)
i had, by chance, read this story a couple weeks prior to all this and this story is SO GOOD. genuinely thought-provoking piece that doesn't talk down to its audience. thank u ursula k le guin for having been such a remarkable and thoughtful writer & person delving beyond the surface level of how the world spins and leaving us this legacy
Post by: PyroDesu on April 25, 2021, 04:47:03 AM
MAN that comment by Minna's Father (mumbles "if that's even your real name" under my breath as if I'm in a cartoon)
That's something I was concerned about when they first popped up in the comment section (I actually said as much when I replied to their comment under the comic where LP was released). It's easy to say you're something on the internet, but we don't have any actual proof that they're her father. Frankly, for all we know they could be Minna herself sockpuppeting.
I think, at least with the first time they popped up, we mostly took them at their word in the hope that we could convince a somewhat more rational person with close ties to Minna that, for me at least, there was reason to be concerned about Minna's apparently sudden (though not so much in hindsight) swerve into fundamentalism and other unsavory opinions.
But with this comment?
Honestly, it's basically a strawman argument. That's how hard it missed the point. It makes me concerned that even if it's from her dad, he might not exactly be the best person either, because there's no way for anyone who actually read the criticism to interpret it so incredibly wrongly by accident.
(Also, going to join the chorus praising The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas. Read it as part of my American Literature class a couple years ago and it's pretty much burned into my memory - Le Guin had a fantastic command of language to write something so impactful in so short a story. I'm not sure it's quite comparable to LP, but I think I can understand where that position is coming from.)
Post by: JoB on April 25, 2021, 06:06:31 AM
My personal opinion regarding it: he completely missed the point of the reaction and critique.I see that we're largely in agreement, so let me focus on the smaller part where I hold a different opinion. We¹ haven't been talking about Christian viewpoints because of The Christian Homemaker (whose name is Marigold, actually ... gotta make a list so as not to forget all the time). The Christian who stole the thunder of the LP characters is the one appearing on page 72 of the comic, as Minna apparently could not let the comic reach an end on its own terms before starting a P.S. and pointing out the RL events that prompted her to write it.²
The only part of substance that I can meaningfully respond to is that yes, "there should be tons of interesting stuff to discuss and speculate about [the two main characters who are NOT Christians'] background, education, support network, values, viewpoints, experience of reality etc." Which Minna seemed to deliberately exclude from the comic. In favor of the "Christian homemaker". The show is stolen in the comic itself, not the critique.
Even then, the vast majority of the reaction is to Minna's own writing in the author's notes.
Yes, there would be a lot to speculate on. From The Teacher (Peppermint) bringing three kids into exile with not a word about, much less communication with, their father(s?), to The Influencer (Peony) apparently having no relatives whatsoever that she might want to inform, to how much of a Christian Marigold actually is³, to what they all actually do expect to find (other than "what if it's a trap?") in that exile that nobody has any idea of beyond "here's a map, which we ultimately got from a Christian source (Cinnamon)". No, we¹ aren't doing that, yet. Because we¹ have it on good authority that the actual comic contents are supposed to pale against the RL issues the author brings up.
¹ To clarify, the "we" I'm using above is meant to mostly refer to those who've found LP by way of following SSSS and do not find LP to their liking; those who do did post comments on a number of details and theories around LP, but they're clearly not what Jouni described as "baffling lack of interest".
² Yes, the fact that Minna did that to LP is a major factor in my meeting her promise to see SSSS to a "proper" end more or less with "I'll believe that when I see it" so far.
³ After all, unlike the apostle Peter referenced in the story, Marigold did deny her Christian faith in a setting where she did not have to fear repercussions for doing so, while talking to her closest friends on page 40.
perhaps there's a much larger portion of people who simply decided to put down their tablets/turn off their computers after they read the bunny comic because it took a LOT of energy for me to unpack all this when I first read it. [...] And even I had to sit down and think about it for six hours before I could make like three incoherent tweets about it.If I remember correctly, there was not a single Disqus comment about LP before Minna herself linked to it on 22-Mar (https://www.sssscomic.com/comic2.php?page=409) apart from the one where Elaine linked to it on Instagram (http://sssscomic.com/comic2.php?page=408#comment-5310134197) two or three days prior. I knew we¹ were in for a ride when I found myself unable to, over the weekend, come up with any comment that I wouldn't had feared to start a flamefest right away ...
MAN that comment by Minna's Father (mumbles "if that's even your real name" under my breath as if i'm in a cartoon)Jouni and Minnas mom have occasionally appeared in the comments before, sans touchy topics, and back when I felt it necessary to pass along certain sensitive information to Minna in a way she would take note of (unlike her e-mail accounts at the time), Jouni and me communicated through what looked like a genuine, long-standing Facebook page of his. No guarantees, of course (and sorry, I'm not on Alizongle and have lost the URL and throwaway Facebook account immediately after), but they are IMHO likely to at least notice if this actually were an imposter.
Post by: Sc0ut on April 25, 2021, 07:28:12 AM
Post by: moredhel on April 25, 2021, 10:38:56 AM
2. The proof for this is that Minna's author's notes basically explained her entire reason/motive/reasoning behind the comic, and none of it mentions Uyghurs.If it was about Uyghurs, why christians? The logical choice in my opinion would have been muslim bunnys.
Post by: steadfastjewel on April 25, 2021, 10:51:03 AM
(Also, going to join the chorus praising The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas. Read it as part of my American Literature class a couple years ago and it's pretty much burned into my memory - Le Guin had a fantastic command of language to write something so impactful in so short a story. I'm not sure it's quite comparable to LP, but I think I can understand where that position is coming from.)
As concerns comparison, I mostly mentioned it because the superficial structure (a society centered on happiness and prosperity, pinned together by an ugly truth, featuring dissidents who can't abide by that bargain and leave to seek something else) is a biit LP-esque. An earlier comment mentioned LP would have more thematic strength if the homeless rabbit was the turning point for the character's emotional journey.
To be clear, I don't think there's any sort of honest consideration of this bunny society. Its a shallow Phone Bad type story with a fairly astounding lack of empathy. There's none of the moral dilemma that makes Omelas so disturbing. The people who leave, in that story, do so because they can't conceive of a way to save the child without damaging the city. In Lovely People, the presence of suffering is broached and then summarily ignored. They leave because "gee, this place is a bit unfulfilling, really. Guess we'll go live in the woods".
The primitivism...does seem to come around to a bit of a Christian viewpoint again. Now I'm thinking about the story of the Exodus, or all those other biblical stories about fleeing a wicked city. Man. The more I think about ways this reflects onto SSSS the more sad I feel. As someone who gets very sensorily overloaded in cities, I was primed and ready to be in the "aw yeah! Back to nature" camp, but it does all have that dull glow of Reject Modernity, Embrace Tradition*, doesn't it.
*a rather insidious internet meme favored by right-wingy and even white supremacist types. Hard emphasis on that im not lumping Minna in with these people (yet), but this new output steers that interpretation way more towards intentional text. :( I'm so glad that the forum seems generally devoid of such types, at least the uncloseted ones.
I'm not gonna comment on the Jouni thing, other than that I get the impulse to go on the defensive (especially for a loved one). But this is a pretty egregious thing to defend. Way to use the suffering of others as a shield against critique.
Post by: KElder on April 25, 2021, 10:57:19 AM
I read LP as soon as I saw it was posted. And I’ve spent the entire time since then trying to process, reading others’ comments voraciously and sometimes just trying to ignore it had been put into the world at all. I'm usually prepared for trauma-triggering media but I wasn’t expecting this one.
So many others have articulated better than I ever could the many personal levels that have been disturbed by reading that comic and the note afterwards. Also, Minna’s and her father’s subsequent commentaries. I have nothing substantive to add on those points.
At this time, I merely wish to say to everyone here that I am grateful to this community and the civility, camaraderie and creativity it engenders no matter the external forces that tempt derailment.
Post by: Keep Looking on April 25, 2021, 11:17:49 AM
If it was about Uyghurs, why christians? The logical choice in my opinion would have been muslim bunnys.
While Minna may have been alarmed by the persecution of the Uyghurs and that may have jolted her into thinking about religious persecution within her own context, Lovely People is fundamentally a story about Minna's own Christianity and the things she perceives to be a threat to it. It's not and never was a story about groups other than her own, even if things that have happened to other groups may have been a spark for the fear that drove her to write it the way she did. Like many here have said before me, Minna's father very much misses the point as to why people are angry about the story.
Also, for everybody reacting to Minna's father's comment right now, please remember that while you do absolutely have the right to be angry about Lovely People and the father's comment, this channel is for civil discussion and critique, not throwing jabs at Minna or her father or speculation about them. I don't think things are gonna devolve into that kind of thing, but just keep that in mind - even if people are espousing views that are objectionable or badly-thought-out, they are still people and I think that does give them the right to a certain level of respect, especially in a place like this where we've worked very hard to form a culture where people can have respectful discussions about really tricky and provocative topics such as these.
(also, I read 'Those who walk away from Omelas', and it was a very good story - I feel like I may have read it before, but it definitely sat with me.)
Post by: Superdark33 on April 25, 2021, 11:45:36 AM
From surface level racist drivel like the Emil Incident to conspiratorial "China is behind all the tech companies censorign my Freeze Peach on Twitter Dot Com".
Everything except admitting she was wrong, and shes been running backwards with it so much that she fell into evangalist christianity because its as racist and anti socialist as she is.
Post by: ChascaKhuno on April 25, 2021, 12:29:09 PM
Post by: catbirds on April 25, 2021, 04:53:37 PM
I will concur with some of the earlier posts that I was willing to gloss over some of Minna's dicier past comments with the old "oh, she doesn't know any better, she's European" argument, in years past. That was wrong. Reclusive or not, the internet makes research easy and refusing to learn from mistakes is not a good look.
This particular argument comes up a lot when European creators/influencers say some "dicey" things. For the benefit of future discussions, I encourage people to not give them the benefit of the doubt. There should be no excuse for not being able to move past racist, xenophobic, antisemetic, etc... beliefs, no matter where you're from. This is not even considering that racial/religious/ethnic minorities exist in almost every country. Just as a note moving forward, but I'm glad you've come to reevaluate your previous stance even if it is because of this... situation.
If I remember correctly, there was not a single Disqus comment about LP before Minna herself linked to it on 22-Mar (https://www.sssscomic.com/comic2.php?page=409) apart from the one where Elaine linked to it on Instagram (http://sssscomic.com/comic2.php?page=408#comment-5310134197) two or three days prior. I knew we¹ were in for a ride when I found myself unable to, over the weekend, come up with any comment that I wouldn't had feared to start a flamefest right away ...
A lot of the people who read the comic do keep up with it solely through the actual webcomic site, so I doubt that people would have come into the comments for the discussion had Minna not kept linking to it for several weeks. As they said, people like the comment section because it's generally a nice and pleasant place where there are even some creative people writing poetry and short stories to contribute.
Now, the link sits there mocking any reader who wants to participate in regular comment affairs, so I'm not sure why "keep it relevant to the comic (SSSS)" is such an absolute rule there.
Aside from that, the same speechlessness was what I felt for many reasons, mostly because I could not find much that was good about the comic to say. Constructive criticism usually does require pointing out strengths and weaknesses, but I couldn't find... any strengths except "art pretty," and even that was pretty shaky in my opinion.
Oh, wait, wow, it's been a whole month and then some since the comic was released!
and hey, maybe we ARE supposed to read between the lines when she realizes "oh heck they labeled my daughter a trash person and i KNOW she is not a trash person!", but it also feels like that requires more intentional reading comprehension than... almost everything else in the comic (the alexa lookalike LITERALLY says 'i spy'. truly a masterstroke of subtle storytelling). i think this thread has discussed how the story as it is is not doing a good job of serving its own narrative multiple times - the story WOULD, in theory, benefit from another 70 pages where they can actually delve into a more nuanced and complex exploration of the Themes and Topics, but that is assuming LP wasn't hastily thrown together to slide a very specific agenda of remember to repent and convert xoxo under the door with the guise of ACTUALLY warning us about the dangers of totalitarian regimes and corporations controlling social media. there is no thematical cohesion between the story and that agenda. it's like putting a dagger inside a pillow and trying to convince everyone the pillow is 100% soft you guys. why are you upset about the soft pillow. would it be better if the pillow was BIGGER?? why aren't we discussing what REALLY matters here: pillow covers. everyone is making such a big stink about the dagger!! as if none of you have ever used knives!! the HIPOcRISY
Yes, there would be a lot to speculate on. From The Teacher (Peppermint) bringing three kids into exile with not a word about, much less communication with, their father(s?), to The Influencer (Peony) apparently having no relatives whatsoever that she might want to inform, to how much of a Christian Marigold actually is³, to what they all actually do expect to find (other than "what if it's a trap?") in that exile that nobody has any idea of beyond "here's a map, which we ultimately got from a Christian source (Cinnamon)". No, we¹ aren't doing that, yet. Because we¹ have it on good authority that the actual comic contents are supposed to pale against the RL issues the author brings up.
Well, I guess now we can start pointing out how the actual story itself was pretty lacking. This was a major point of confusion for me because had any other author come around with this comic, most of us would probably have just slept on it or read it and then forgotten about it totally. The comic just isn't good enough to warrant a careful thematic analysis, in my opinion. Haiz, I know you wrote this in a haze, but you got down a lot of the problems with how carelessly the comic handles pretty serious issues. That's not even considering that the characters are pretty much cardboard cutouts of tropes. The Influencer, The Teacher who never thinks about her own actions, and the Christian Homemaker who is a Very Good Wife (did I forget to mention how Good a Wife she is?) have like... no depth, we don't get any insight into how they think and where they stand politically, and we just have to take for granted that they're Super Good Friends because they get together and eat every once in a while, which is what all Super Good Friends do!
So, yeah, they all really do exist for Minna's Very Specific Agenda.
Anyway, if there really is any criticism I have for the christian homemaker herself (and it's not even really about her), it's that the story is basically saying "your conservative christian friend is right! Listen to your local Conservative Christian Friend today!" And the last few panels, p. 70 ish I think, include Marigold saying "And now I'm going to tell you guys all about it and you won't be able to escape me." ("it" refers to Christianity or God's providence, I'm not sure, but it's related to Marigold's religion) AND Violet ended up being used as a vehicle for all this for the teacher bunny's family. But JoB, I agree, that's next to nothing compared to every other horrible thing the author has said and the conspiracy-theory-path she was on on the afterword.
Minna doesnt care about Uyghurs, she hates China and everything she thinks China represents.
From surface level racist drivel like the Emil Incident to conspiratorial "China is behind all the tech companies censorign my Freeze Peach on Twitter Dot Com".
"Freeze Peach" had me laughing for a bit. It's pretty funny.
"Minna doesn't care about Uyghurs" is significantly less funny, but I don't have a hard time believing it at all.
Post by: Tarnagh on April 25, 2021, 05:37:27 PM
An earlier comment mentioned LP would have more thematic strength if the homeless rabbit was the turning point for the character's emotional journey.In a way, it was. That was the turning point for the teenage bunny, before she turned 15 and got her own account. Mind you, I only read LP the one time but the teenager stuck out to me as the most compassionate person in the story in a way that didn't even involve religion. She seemed to be upset over the Homeless Bunny simply because she was a kind person. Generic Christian Housewife Bunny 14-B was fine with the system until it impacted her reading material. Teacher Bunny didn't care until her score was impacted because of her daughter. Influencer Bunny also didn't care until it impacted her because of her friends. All these "Lovely People" are incredibly shallow, and even if Minna had taken the time to give them more depth of character that wouldn't have changed who they were on a fundamental(ist) level.
It seemed to me like the only character in that story with any (nominal and probably unintentional) depth was the teenager. She was angry about how the homeless bunny was treated. If I remember correctly, it was at that point where she decided to tank her score once she had one, and so was the catalyst for almost everything that happened after.
Post by: Haiz on April 25, 2021, 06:50:15 PM
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/778359118397440050/836010597799821355/Screenshot_20210426_004709.jpg)
Post by: Tarnagh on April 25, 2021, 07:05:46 PM
That's amazing, Haiz! <3
Post by: Vulpes on April 25, 2021, 07:28:06 PM
Post by: KElder on April 25, 2021, 08:55:59 PM
Post by: Opaque on April 25, 2021, 09:12:29 PM
Post by: LetsEatBees on April 25, 2021, 10:17:12 PM
EDIT: Correction; the teenage bunny's name is Lavander, I apologize for the mistake :S
Post by: catbirds on April 25, 2021, 10:52:25 PM
I hope this is setup for the sequel when violet gets sick of commune life and returns to start a revolution.
Post by: Tarnagh on April 26, 2021, 12:13:56 AM
haha! Finally some recognition for the real protagonist!I'd (almost) pay money to see Violet say the equivalent of "I offer myself as Tribute!" ;D
I hope this is setup for the sequel when violet gets sick of commune life and returns to start a revolution.
As unlikely as that is, it's still a hilarious mental image, so thanks for that! :)
Post by: Róisín on April 26, 2021, 12:14:45 AM
Post by: Haiz on April 26, 2021, 07:27:42 AM
i've also seen people mention Husband Bunny (husbunny???) as another character that you don't Dislike, but unlike lavender feels so flat and hollow it doesn't feel right to count him. since we're talking about the plot again, i do in fact want to talk about Husband Bunny. WHAT'S HIS DEAL.
see, as a character he is introduced like:
- he is married to homemaker bunny
- he works for alizongle
- he seemingly holds no interests in his wife's hobbies, interests, hopes and dreams other than be a "sure, dear" sounding board for most of the time
in this essay i would like to propose that he could easily have been one of the most intruiging characters/story elements if he had been utilized well. LET ME EXPLAIN
when i read the comic for the first time, i was so certain there was going to be a 'twist' where it's found out he has an affair, or that marigold and her husband were in a loveless marriage and just keeping up appearances and are married because they're ticking off that life checklist, that he had been sipping that alizongle propaganda juice his entire life and was going to turn her in to the secret police, or even just a reveal that working for alizongle was a deeply harrowing and distressing experience and that he's been suffering this entire time and was just pretending Everything Is Fine while secretly harboring rebellious anti-alizongle thoughts.
JUST SOME OF THE MANY THOUGHTS I GOT FROM THE VIBES AND INCLUSION OF THESE PANELS:
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/778359118397440050/836196210133958673/unknown.png)
he looks distressed to be working for alizongle and in a real hurry to get to his job, overlayered with "see he's so happy to work for them :)"
FORESHADOWING????? alas no his relationship to his work is never touched upon in any way, ever. he does not even have an arc beyond supporting his wife's arc (oh MY a clever subversion of gender tropes! a win for feminism!!) he is still nothing but a sounding board that occasionally says something smart like "if it means something to you the points shouldn't matter" which is almost SUSPICIOUSLY REBELLIOUS considering alizongle's whole deal? and then the whole time he very suddenly decides to take an interest in his wife's passion The Bible after, presumably, years of marriage - so he can mansplain it back to her in her Moment Of Weakness. but even THAT seems to only be rebellious by accident, very "haha woops i accidentally listened to a heavily controversial book that my workplace specifically is censoring" instead of emphasizing the radical-ness of what he actually did.
HOW DOES HE FEEL ABOUT ALIZONGLE? IS HE ACTIVELY SUPPRESSING ALL THE PROPAGANDA HE IS PRESUMABLY BEING FED AT HIS JOB WHILE HIS OWN WIFE AND INFLUENCER BUNNY HAS NO DEFENSES FOR IT? WHAT EVEN IS HIS JOB?? IS HE CONTRIBUTING TO THE REIGN OF THE TOTALITARIAN CORPORATE REGIME?? WHAT IF HE'S OVERSEEING ALL THE PERSONAL DATA INFORMATION OR SOCIAL CREDIT ALGORITHMS?? IS HE JUST AN AIRHEAD FOLLOWING ORDERS??? all we get is "he's just a good man and husband" HE WORKS FOR ALIZONGLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HOW MUCH ARE WE SUPPOSED TO READ BETWEEN THE LINES HERE
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/022/524/tumblr_o16n2kBlpX1ta3qyvo1_1280.jpg)
*takes a few calming breaths*
anyway on a different topic. i want to share some tweets i saw on my timeline several weeks ago, while i was still deep in the Processing All This Information phase. i follow a lot of webcomic creators and it was very validating to see someone just... MENTION what had happened, and also it made me laugh out loud for like ten minutes straight.
i will give a CW for uhhh blasphemy? poking fun at the whole religious situation? feel free to suggest better wordings if you have them, i'm not posting it here to upset anyone, i just figure we could all use some levity
Spoiler: tweets by the creator of kill six billion demons • show
Post by: thegreyarea on April 26, 2021, 08:51:32 AM
What if we later find out that husbunny never worked for alizongle and it was all a cover for his work at the Thought Police? And while he felt a bit divided, and even decided to read the book his wife care so much about, deep inside he still believed in the World Council way of life? What if he's acting to gain the others' trust and just collect information before betraying their new comunity? This could have been a really interesting thing...
I'd (almost) pay money to see Violet say the equivalent of "I offer myself as Tribute!" ;DI'd (almost) die laughing if that happens! ;D
As unlikely as that is, it's still a hilarious mental image, so thanks for that! :)
Post by: Vulpes on April 26, 2021, 08:52:09 AM
I was so confused by him - total cardboard cutout. He seems utterly detatched - for pete's sake, his wife mentions her desire to have a baby and he basically says, "Yes dear." He looked as though he utterly loathed his job, comes home and collapses, but his wife is all "He loves his job!" Then when he's late, she worries that maybe he actually hated it and had gone berserk. WTF? Which is it? He just seemed to be a prop until he read the whole damn bible on the train... which bothered the heck out of me for technical reasons, why the hecking heck is he taking an all-night train home from WORK?? It makes. no. sense.
And thanks for pointing out the annoying mansplaining at her hour of need, I was probably just fuming and confused by that point and hadn't really figured out why that bit irritated me so much. Also, the bible is loooong, how did he remember just the right passage? I wish I had that kind of memory.
catbirds, I adore the idea of Violet/Lavender* coming back to start a revolution!
* Whichever it is... I think my brain just refused to take in any details in this mess of a comic.
Post by: Superdark33 on April 26, 2021, 09:16:25 AM
And the more you strip away, you basically end up with just..... Bnuy. Maybe in a solarpunk setting, despite that not truly gelling with an Authoritarian Corporatocracy thing, and by that point even the slightly tinily deeper characters are butterfly-effected out of it.
Post by: ChascaKhuno on April 26, 2021, 09:20:22 AM
Tempted to create "fanart" (if you can call it that) of Husbunny betraying everyone. Postapocalyptic/postrebellion AU lol.
Post by: catbirds on April 26, 2021, 12:06:41 PM
catbirds, I adore the idea of Violet/Lavender* coming back to start a revolution!
* Whichever it is... I think my brain just refused to take in any details in this mess of a comic.
Oh I also have no clue, don't worry. I refuse to revisit it (again) to find out, but I think it was something to do with the colour purple.
Haiz, you're doing way too much heavy lifting for the plot that Minna created here! (the plot itself was pretty bare-bones, let's be careful not to make it too good!)
To be fair, working an office job for a totalitarian government can mean anything from "I get coffee for people" to "I directly monitor and maintain indoctrination practices," so Husbunny could have easily become the disillusioned office worker trope that's been getting popular now that people are, well, disillusioned with office work. But I'll go with the "has technical expertise" choice to complement the extended bunny comic idea where Violet/Lavender go back to start a revolution and needs a tech guy.
Also, I did not realize the comic was actually being made fun of by other creators! I remember someone in the last twitch stream I checked in on saying that they "followed Minna after they found another webcomic artist making fun of her behind her back," but I couldn't find any actual evidence of that happening until now.
Post by: Haiz on April 26, 2021, 01:15:24 PM
Haiz, you're doing way too much heavy lifting for the plot that Minna created here! (the plot itself was pretty bare-bones, let's be careful not to make it too good!)hahahhahahaaa yeah i think i myself have said so in so many of my own posts here - there's no real point in trying to improve or analyse the story since it's so clearly created as a shabby veil to promote a specific agenda, and any attempt to make the story work or rewrite it to have any substance would just defeat its entire purpose. i think i said so in my very first post and here i am, picking apart whatever low expectations i already had for it. i'm not even trying to IMPROVE it, just expressing my frustration at just HOW flimsy the story is. (and how flimsy all of SSSS is ultimately proving to be, which is maybe the most painful thing to come to terms with, personally)
i'm just, y'know, t̴r̵y̸i̶n̵g̵ t̴̰͔̓ó̷̡̧̳͖̮̦̱͍̩̯̲̗̬̩̿͆́͆ͅ c̷͖͒̉͒͑̈́̏̑̽̎̌̊̓͘̕̚͘͝ô̶̪̻͑̆̎̆͆́̀̓̚p̶̬͔̳̮͍̮̝̹͖̰̩̝̗͊ḙ̶̡̢̰̭͖̫̐̈̀̐́̉̎̋̈́̾̕͜͜͝͝
this whole situation is so incredibly absurd to me, even one month later. i know the most self care thing is to just let it go, it's just a little comic, and i'm not even IN the ssss fandom/community anymore in any meaningful capacity, and haven't been for a while. but i USED to be and i used to make all this art and i used to get people interested in ssss and even for a single year, it was a central part of my life and interests. and all this is so similar to another thing i'm processing these days - there is a musician i used to really admire as a teen. she had this huge impact on me, my artistic direction, and how i viewed the world. at some point she published a book, which i at the time regarded highly and thought was very Good and Smart. but when i look back at it NOW, it's............ it's not very good. it's actually kind of bad. maybe it wouldn't have been such a terrible thing to publish a bad book - but this musician KEEPS making this book out to be her magnum opus, she has been centering all of her work around this book ever since, she wants to make a muSICAL based on this book... the story in the book is undermining her whole body of work. it's not as deep as she wants to think it is, and it's a pretty humbling experience to look back on all the things i thought were truly profound or meaningful, only to find that very little holds up under scrutiny anymore. editing the book to be technically better is not the solution either (especially since it has been edited multiple times for later editions. i'm tempted to sell my first edition hardcover copy for some ridiculous price on ebay after this.) - the whole foundation of what the book wants to be is flawed. how do you claim to be an advocate for people struggling with mental illness when your intended magnum opus shows an understanding of mental illnesses comparable to that of a c-list horror movie plot?
it's probably like that for me with lovely people, too. it's not a throwaway minicomic minna did just to mix up her creative output a little bit, which is extremely understandable when you work on a very longform story. there's so much emphasis on how she had this VERY IMPORTANT message that MUST be set into the world, and she keeps promoting it and linking to it and it's indicative of her future direction. she's allowed to do all this, she owes me nothing, she's doin it for free. but i AM going to harbor all this frustration at getting this story presented to me as this very smart and poignant social commentary, and i get THIS paltry meal? anything can be picked apart if i try hard enough, nitpicking things to pieces is a petty habit to have, but i appreciate above all else, sincerity. i don't appreciate having an agenda snuck into my meal. i don't appreciate being given a pillow with a dagger in it and told it's all soft and good like i'm the princess on the pea. i suppose i WILL appreciate the straightforwardness of her author's note, if nothing else. i appreciate it a lot more than disqus comments implying i'm not reading the comments right, i'm focusing on the wrong things, when it's like... any angle i can personally take to analyze this comic on its own merits just loops back into "this narrative doesn't hold up because everything is there just to serve the agenda and fixing the narrative would weaken the agenda"
I'LL LET GO. EVENTUALLY
in the meantime i will grapple with the letdowns and the fact that i maybe possibly created the first ever edit for lovely people. i dont want this legacy
Post by: Sc0ut on April 26, 2021, 02:05:12 PM
Some other headscratchers of my own where the characters' reaction to things seemed like it would turn out to be meaningful upon being re-examined, but it just never went anywhere:
- when Lavender's mom tells her that bad people get "reeducated" which is lovely and good, but then bursts into tears when Lavender tanks her score - so the reeducation was a lie, and not naivety! However no lessons are learned beyond "how it directly affects me and my family", and the hipocrisy is never addressed
- when homemaker bunny leaves her Bible to her low-score friend who borrowed it - is that meant to be read as a kind gesture, or as her first panic moment at the realisation that the book she likes is Dangerous? Again, never explained, never brought up again, even though it seems like it should be an important emotional bit in the story. But no, turns out that part is only there so homemaker can have the map.
- when husbunny is like "I noticed your score tanked, so I decided we should be in this together" to his wife, by which he meant he deliberately did something he knew would lower his score, thus complicating their shared situation further, I burst out laughing. I still am not sure what Minna meant by this. Is this her impression of romantic love? Of solidarity?? On my first read I decided he was just meant to be the least socially aware person ever and it would be relevant later on ... but no, this is again never addressed.
- influencer bunny's realisation that "maybe it wasn't okay to cut my friends out of my life" is triggered by literally nothing - in real life, I suppose it does happen that sometimes you just think things through and change your mind, but it does not make for convincing storytelling. She just did it because the plot needed to move on.
- how hollow and mostly fake most of the relationships depicted in the comic seem - not only that the three characters do nothing as "friends" except eat together, they also take jabs at each other and demonstrate not understanding each other's experience. Especially influencer bunny who complains that the mom is late due to picking up her children, and also her not being aware how her comments about spending affect her less affluent friends. What *exactly* does their friendship rely on?
- the married bunnies' marriage is basically a 50s movie stereotype, where they're just going through the motions with little awareness of each other's reality and zero chemistry between them whatsoever, with Minna apparently not realising how unsettling and anachronistic this comes off to a contemporary reader. I genuinely still am not sure how she thought it reads?? Is it meant to be funny? Relatable? "Christian"? What is it because I can't tell???
To me, maybe even more unsettling than the "repent or burn" message of the comic is the impression that it was made by someone who has no idea whatsoever of how human connections work, whether they're genuine or manipulative, online or offline, etc. Which.... you know, SSSS is not stellar at that either, but at least it has some good moments. LP however is full of cardboard cutouts instead of characters, and almost literally everything they do is jarring from an emotional perspective.
Post by: SkyWhalePod on April 26, 2021, 02:46:29 PM
I had no intention to defend Minna. I don't think I defended her, or did I. I'm getting confused here because so many commenters here is of that opinion. Anyway, I choosed to NOT comment on any person's personal reactions, because I'm not comfortable in net-discussions where people are participating via anonymous aliases. I find it extremely hard to separate a genuine writing from something is just trolling. I honestly thought I was just providing you people with useful information. Note: I did NOT say that the comic was ABOUT the UIGHURS. However, reading your comments here I understand that I failed completely in my attempt to..., well I don't know anymore what I tried to achieve by sticking my big nose where it doesn't belong. I deleted all that I had written and closed my Disqus account. I will not return to this forum anymore, so feel free to continue your discussions. Wishing you all the best. BR Jouni
Wow, @Jouni, hello! Through all of this I've been wishing I could sit down for coffee with you and ask you questions about what you've said and what you meant versus what we interpreted your comments to mean. I doubt you're reading this, but if you are, thanks for coming here and for trying to talk with us. It's been frustrating, not being able to talk to Minna directly about things, and some of the information you've provided has been interesting and sometimes illuminating. I understand completely your discomfort with online, anonymous discussions. It's difficult. This would all have been easier if we could sit down together and talk.
Post by: JoB on April 26, 2021, 03:19:33 PM
Spoiler: so naughty: show
for pete's sake, his wife mentions her desire to have a baby and he basically says, "Yes dear."Hint: Bunnies. >:D
Then when he's late, she worries that maybe he actually hated it and had gone berserk. WTF? Which is it?To be fair, it is pretty much canon that Alizongle employees occasionally and unexpectedly suffer from eruptive burnout. And some of the dissenting reactions to Bible 2.0 we see over Marigolds shoulder go in the direction of a sudden case of "enough!!", too ...
He just seemed to be a prop until he read the whole damn bible on the train... which bothered the heck out of me for technical reasons, why the hecking heck is he taking an all-night train home from WORK?? It makes. no. sense.You're assuming that he's working in the same office/building/city every day. His packing documents into his briefcase to haul along reminds me of my customer-visiting years ...
Post by: Maple on April 26, 2021, 03:42:02 PM
I had no intention to defend Minna. I don't think I defended her, or did I? I'm getting confused here because so many commenters here is of that opinion. Anyway, I choosed to NOT comment on any person's personal reactions, because I'm not comfortable in net-discussions where people are participating via anonymous aliases. I find it extremely hard to separate a genuine writing from something that is just trolling. I honestly thought I was just providing you people with useful information. Note: I did NOT say that the comic was ABOUT the UIGHURS. However, reading your comments here I understand that I failed completely in my attempt to..., well I don't know anymore what I tried to achieve by sticking my big nose where it doesn't belong. I deleted all that I had written and closed my Disqus account. I will not return to this forum anymore, so feel free to continue your discussions. Wishing you all the best. BR Jouni
I hope you do decide to come back, because this is an open discussion and your viewpoint is just as valid as anyone else's. Even if we don't agree, I personally don't want to silence you just because we disagree. And I'm sure others feel the same way too.
Post by: catbirds on April 26, 2021, 04:30:49 PM
hahahhahahaaa yeah i think i myself have said so in so many of my own posts here - there's no real point in trying to improve or analyse the story since it's so clearly created as a shabby veil to promote a specific agenda, and any attempt to make the story work or rewrite it to have any substance would just defeat its entire purpose. i think i said so in my very first post and here i am, picking apart whatever low expectations i already had for it. i'm not even trying to IMPROVE it, just expressing my frustration at just HOW flimsy the story is. (and how flimsy all of SSSS is ultimately proving to be, which is maybe the most painful thing to come to terms with, personally)
i'm just, y'know, t̴r̵y̸i̶n̵g̵ t̴̰͔̓ó̷̡̧̳͖̮̦̱͍̩̯̲̗̬̩̿͆́͆ͅ c̷͖͒̉͒͑̈́̏̑̽̎̌̊̓͘̕̚͘͝ô̶̪̻͑̆̎̆͆́̀̓̚p̶̬͔̳̮͍̮̝̹͖̰̩̝̗͊ḙ̶̡̢̰̭͖̫̐̈̀̐́̉̎̋̈́̾̕͜͜͝͝
Pffffbblrh it's okay, I totally get how you feel. I mean, I've never had this exact thing happen before whereas this could be your second or third time on this whole thing, but I have a friend who also managed to get a pretty large chunk of friends to buy/read SSSS and I uhhh I drew for it somewhat? It was pretty formative, even though I had, for some reason, very few problems letting it go. (Also apparently one of my friends showed one of her friends my art and that was what convinced them to read SSSS... I'm going to quietly head out of that room... wheeeew)
I do have a slight objection to the whole "she's allowed to do this because it's free" part, though. Yeah, she can put out works like this, but it overlaps somewhat with the idea that you can have free speech, but you're not free from criticism or backlash for what you say, especially if you've said [lists off all the Things Minna has Said]. She should be taking criticism and well-intentioned feedback into consideration instead of going forth with "yes I am right I am Better than the Rest." And if I were hurt by something someone said or promoted (in a setting where I could directly/physically reach them), I wouldn't have a problem with hissing at them like a bathed cat. However, seeing as she's not [grumbles] listening to anything people saygghhfrrrhhkdjf [end grumbles], making a bunch of derivative theories/edits that pretty much directly contradict her ideas is as cathartic as it gets.
I hope none of us go out of our way to rewrite the entire plot of LP because man is that thing deeply flawed, but picking at these few characters that were actually slightly? Interesting? sounds fun now that there's not much else we can do about what exists? Or maybe we can play a game of how badly can we interpret LP?
Lovely People is a webcomic about a teenage girl's bizarre plan to get her family to go on a camping trip.
Scout, I have nothing to add to your comment except that you perfectly described my problems with the portrayal of human (bunny) relationships in LP. Like, none of this seems like how a human would react to anything, and their speech peculiarities are entirely stereotypical.
Uhhh, also, welcome and goodbye, Jouni, I guess! A half-sorry for you getting embroiled in all this, and the confusion the internet has caused you. And if you do decide to return, I hope that you take some time to write out and articulate some thoughts that got misinterpreted or something. It is a rare and confusing thing to have family involved with things online.
You're assuming that he's working in the same office/building/city every day. His packing documents into his briefcase to haul along reminds me of my customer-visiting years ...
Customer-visiting!? Ah, he must be the one installing the government spy birds (p.60) everywhere.
Post by: Gwenno on April 26, 2021, 04:41:20 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/ON5bVtg.png)
This thread is talking about familiarity, but the same applies to well-meaning (or just emotional and honest) critique. Regardless of how good your point is, how gently phrased, or how close you feel to a person having reading their comments or consumed their work for years, having hundreds of people telling you that you did poorly is going to drain you. This goes for Minna, but also for Minnions who enjoyed LP, but now have 40+ pages of comments telling them that if they like this content, they are bad people. All of these individual posts perfectly civil, and making valid points about people's experiences and the context of the comic, but they can add up to a pretty negative message overall.
As for yourself Jouni, if you should return. I'm sorry that your message was misunderstood. There are many difficulties in trying to communicate in an online setting, and doubly so when many of the people commenting are doing so in their second or third languages and across different cultures. I, and many others I'm sure, appreciate your attempt to help us better understand Minna and her work.
Post by: Haiz on April 26, 2021, 05:01:12 PM
I do have a slight objection to the whole "she's allowed to do this because it's free" part, though.OH i simply meant it in a "i am not personally commissioning her to draw comics and have therefore no say in what kind of comics she makes or how she makes them" kind of way, not a "free speech means you can say and do whatever you want without consequence" way. (and yes, free speech does have to have limits as well, something something tolerance paradox)
Lovely People is a webcomic about a teenage girl's bizarre plan to get her family to go on a camping trip.SNRRRRRRRRRRK hahahahahaaaaa
Alrighty, we'd already removed one post with the K6BD tweets back when this thread was under 24/7 maintenance, as it did little beyond mock Minna and didn't contribute to the discussion, but I'll keep it there for now because I want to share the tweets following in context:
ah, i did not realize that! i hope me adding them Again does not come off as spiteful. thanks for leaving it up + adding the following tweets. parasocial relationships are one hell of a drug.
Quote
MINNA'S FATHER has LOGGED ON
alrighty, maybe this will finally be what gets me to leave again. there's a reason i've been keeping my thoughts on this comic under untagged readmores on tumblr and an independent forum not overseen by the comic creator herself, rather than the comment section or the email left under the bunny comic itself.
Post by: Gwenno on April 26, 2021, 05:08:49 PM
ah, i did not realize that! i hope me adding them Again does not come off as spiteful. thanks for leaving it up + adding the following tweets. parasocial relationships are one hell of a drug.
We took the post down pretty quickly so I don't think many people saw it (and contacted the poster to explain, of course). I don't think either of you meant it particularly maliciously, but this thread is such a fine line of letting people express themselves, but remaining civil and not falling into shouting and insults that we've had to be very careful.
Post by: Sc0ut on April 26, 2021, 05:10:32 PM
This thread is talking about familiarity, but the same applies to well-meaning (or just emotional and honest) critique. Regardless of how good your point is, how gently phrased, or how close you feel to a person having reading their comments or consumed their work for years, having hundreds of people telling you that you did poorly is going to drain you. This goes for Minna, but also for Minnions who enjoyed LP, but now have 40+ pages of comments telling them that if they like this content, they are bad people. All of these individual posts perfectly civil, and making valid points about people's experiences and the context of the comic, but they can add up to a pretty negative message overall.
Hm, sorry to say this, but personally I feel that this kind of moderation is why some of us felt it wasn't possible to talk about difficult but important issues in the forum previously. To me, this is too close to "be tolerant about intolerance" for comfort. Nobody here ever said that people who like LP are bad, and I don't appreciate this being claimed. I am aware they would not be having a good time reading this thread, but unless you are planning to get rid of all the previous 40 pages, what's done is done and I can't see what difference it makes, to them, what we write at this point - however for those of us who were rattled by the comic, the commiserating helps, as multiple people have said.
To be clear: in my case, I've been commenting here specifically because, as far as she said, Minna is not reading the forum. I'm sure that having this space to vent is keeping a lot of the criticism off disqus (and by extension, Minna's face). The complaints will likely spill elsewhere if you decide to put an end to it. Might want to keep that in mind. (Not from me, I'm hopefully almost done thinking about LP at this point)
Post by: thorny on April 26, 2021, 05:33:18 PM
Minnions who enjoyed LP, but now have 40+ pages of comments telling them that if they like this content, they are bad people.
???
I've seen 40 pages of comments most but not all of them saying that it's in one way or another a bad comic and a bad aftertext. I do not see 40 pages of comments saying that anyone who liked it is a bad person. Trying to explain to others why we see bad things in the comic is not the same thing. Concern that the comic may attract a readership some but not all of whom may be bad people is not the same thing.
Regardless of how good your point is, how gently phrased, or how close you feel to a person having reading their comments or consumed their work for years, having hundreds of people telling you that you did poorly is going to drain you. This goes for Minna, but also for Minnions who enjoyed LP, but now have 40+ pages of comments telling them that if they like this content, they are bad people. All of these individual posts perfectly civil, and making valid points about people's experiences and the context of the comic, but they can add up to a pretty negative message overall.
Which is a point. But what's the alternative? That people who are distressed should all suffer separately in silence?
alrighty, maybe this will finally be what gets me to leave again. there's a reason i've been keeping my thoughts on this comic under untagged readmores on tumblr and an independent forum not overseen by the comic creator herself, rather than the comment section or the email left under the bunny comic itself.
He's apparently gone again. Please don't you leave too!
Post by: catbirds on April 26, 2021, 05:48:09 PM
alrighty, maybe this will finally be what gets me to leave again. there's a reason i've been keeping my thoughts on this comic under untagged readmores on tumblr and an independent forum not overseen by the comic creator herself, rather than the comment section or the email left under the bunny comic itself.
Yep. I mean, I'm here because I enjoy the discussion in this community, but this thread was a useful place to sort out feelings exactly because comments were more organized than the comment section and because Minna herself did not read it. No one can change what LP has become/was all along. It's on the internet forever, or for as long as the internet lasts. And whatever effect it has or will have on the world can't be changed. This place was not officially associated with it. It's not that I am directly opposed to Minna's father saying his piece and perhaps contributing to this discussion because a lot of you guys seem to want to hear from him, but this thread does contain a lot of messy feelings and fear, anger, regret, people's pasts, all that stuff that people did not want affecting Minna but nevertheless needed to express.
Pulling out the parasocial relationship argument at this particular point is distasteful because this thread was a way to respect boundaries.
I'm also exhausted by both what LP has caused and what SSSS is becoming to me, this is the most active I've ever been in an internet discussion and the most I've gone into my own emotions in a while.
He's apparently gone again. Please don't you leave too!
The unfortunate part about this is that it seems he already read at least a good portion of the thread which people hoped would never reach him/Minna/the rest of the family. Welp, what can you do?
Post by: Haiz on April 26, 2021, 05:52:23 PM
Post by: Gwenno on April 26, 2021, 06:02:07 PM
Hm, sorry to say this, but personally I feel that this kind of moderation is why some of us felt it wasn't possible to talk about difficult but important issues in the forum previously. To me, this is too close to "be tolerant about intolerance" for comfort. Nobody here ever said that people who like LP are bad, and I don't appreciate this being claimed. I am aware they would not be having a good time reading this thread, but unless you are planning to get rid of all the previous 40 pages, what's done is done and I can't see what difference it makes, to them, what we write at this point - however for those of us who were rattled by the comic, the commiserating helps, as multiple people have said.
To be clear: in my case, I've been commenting here specifically because, as far as she said, Minna is not reading the forum. I'm sure that having this space to vent is keeping a lot of the criticism off disqus (and by extension, Minna's face). The complaints will likely spill elsewhere if you decide to put an end to it. Might want to keep that in mind. (Not from me, I'm hopefully almost done thinking about LP at this point)
???
I've seen 40 pages of comments most but not all of them saying that it's in one way or another a bad comic and a bad aftertext. I do not see 40 pages of comments saying that anyone who liked it is a bad person. Trying to explain to others why we see bad things in the comic is not the same thing. Concern that the comic may attract a readership some but not all of whom may be bad people is not the same thing.
Which is a point. But what's the alternative? That people who are distressed should all suffer separately in silence?
In case you are both worried, we have no intention of stopping the discussion, nor of moderating it more heavily than we already have unless it deteriorates significantly (which I hope won't happen). My post was intended mostly to highlight how a cumulative message can read very differently to a single message and to be mindful that this might be why others are getting more upset than you might consider appropriate for the content here. The "40+ pages of comments telling them that if they like this content, they are bad people", was a poor way of phrasing this exaggerated interpretation and I apologise. It was past my bedtime when I posted (and even later now). This thread has exhausted me this last month, as I'm sure it has for many other people, but I shall try to be more mindful in the future. Unlike those people who enjoyed LP, unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of stopping reading this thread, so it would be a good idea on my part not to start causing trouble I and the others have to moderate!
Post by: SkyWhalePod on April 26, 2021, 06:10:51 PM
Thank you for the work you do!
Post by: thorny on April 26, 2021, 07:15:04 PM
The unfortunate part about this is that it seems he already read at least a good portion of the thread which people hoped would never reach him/Minna/the rest of the family. Welp, what can you do?
True. However, if Haiz leaves now, that won't fix that.
[ETA: I note that so far, at least, instead of leaving they're providing excellent artwork commentary!]
In case you are both worried, we have no intention of stopping the discussion, nor of moderating it more heavily than we already have unless it deteriorates significantly (which I hope won't happen). My post was intended mostly to highlight how a cumulative message can read very differently to a single message and to be mindful that this might be why others are getting more upset than you might consider appropriate for the content here. The "40+ pages of comments telling them that if they like this content, they are bad people", was a poor way of phrasing this exaggerated interpretation and I apologise. It was past my bedtime when I posted (and even later now). This thread has exhausted me this last month, as I'm sure it has for many other people, but I shall try to be more mindful in the future. Unlike those people who enjoyed LP, unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of stopping reading this thread, so it would be a good idea on my part not to start causing trouble I and the others have to moderate!
Thank you, Gwenno; and thank you very much for your time.
Post by: Tarnagh on April 26, 2021, 07:21:16 PM
@Haiz Please don't leave! You're awesome! :) I love KSBD and I thought I was following Abbadon on Twitter but I definitely missed that. He's not wrong about the creator/fanbase relationship, unfortunately.
Kinda feel bad about Minna's dad dropping in pretty much just to say he was done with saying anything. :( His perspective would have been/is welcome, imo. That still crosses the "creator/fanbase" line in some next-level ways though. It's really a huge burden to put on the parent of the content creator.
Post by: SkyWhalePod on April 26, 2021, 07:59:30 PM
Kinda feel bad about Minna's dad dropping in pretty much just to say he was done with saying anything. :( His perspective would have been/is welcome, imo. That still crosses the "creator/fanbase" line in some next-level ways though. It's really a huge burden to put on the parent of the content creator.
I felt bad too, it was eating at me a little while I was making bread this afternoon. I had to stop multiple times in the middle of kneading to draft up a message to him, just to say that I wished he had felt more welcome to present his perspective and let us find common ground with each other. His position is difficult in a way none of ours is. If he's a man of his word and never comes back here, he won't read it, but I had to try.
(heh eating)
Post by: Róisín on April 26, 2021, 08:34:26 PM
Post by: Superdark33 on April 26, 2021, 11:51:25 PM
Call me "close minded" but i dont see any value in the perspective of anyone who still sees nothing wrong with all of it, even after all of this discussion.
Post by: thorny on April 26, 2021, 11:59:01 PM
I too will be sorry to lose Jouni. As you say, another perspective. And I also would have liked to talk to him in real life. But his call. Sad though.
I rather doubt the conversation would have gone anywhere useful.
I've tried several times to draft a reaction to his post here; but that also tends to go nowhere useful.
Post by: catbirds on April 27, 2021, 12:03:52 AM
True. However, if Haiz leaves now, that won't fix that.
[ETA: I note that so far, at least, instead of leaving they're providing excellent artwork commentary!]
LOL yes, it's an excellent drawing! The bunny comic, distilled to its simplest theme (minus christianity).
Kinda feel bad about Minna's dad dropping in pretty much just to say he was done with saying anything. :( His perspective would have been/is welcome, imo. That still crosses the "creator/fanbase" line in some next-level ways though. It's really a huge burden to put on the parent of the content creator.
On the one hand I feel like this should be something that the family resolves on their own time/in their own interactions, but on the other hand I feel kind of bad for him getting this confused. But yes, it absolutely does cross the creator/fanbase line, albeit in a roundabout way. If he did read the entire thread, though, I'd have hoped he learned something about others' perspectives, but I guess not. Ah. Well. I'll throw in the towel on that prospect for either of them.
Realistically speaking, him speaking directly with Minna will be much more helpful. Not in the getting her to change her views way at all, just in the getting a grasp on each other's situation kind of way. This has become a family issue of sorts, after all.
Post by: Tarnagh on April 27, 2021, 01:05:10 AM
Realistically speaking, him speaking directly with Minna will be much more helpful. Not in the getting her to change her views way at all, just in the getting a grasp on each other's situation kind of way. This has become a family issue of sorts, after all.I'm not sure it will be helpful, and that's the sad part.
If, after reading this thread, he still doesn't have any grasp of the problematic nature of LP and (more importantly), why people have reacted the way we have to the comic and even more so our reaction to Minna's writeup at the end ... I have to conclude that he sees nothing wrong with where she's at and is himself part of the problem. Which is a shame and I hope I'm wrong.
Honestly, even if he did understand - and maybe he does - what could he say to his daughter to get *her* to understand?
Regardless. It's not an "us" problem. It's a "them" problem and I suspect they don't see it as a problem.
All we can do is what we've done here - try to sort out our feelings and move on.
Post by: JoB on April 27, 2021, 01:54:51 AM
Regardless of how good your point is, how gently phrased, or how close you feel to a person having reading their comments or consumed their work for years, having hundreds of people telling you that you did poorly is going to drain you. This goes for Minna, but also for Minnions who enjoyed LP, but now have 40+ pages of comments telling them that if they like this content, they are bad people. All of these individual posts perfectly civil, and making valid points about people's experiences and the context of the comic, but they can add up to a pretty negative message overall.
My post was intended mostly to highlight how a cumulative message can read very differently to a single message and to be mindful that this might be why others are getting more upset than you might consider appropriate for the content here.Let me make a caricature of this argument (yes, caricatures are by definition exaggerated) to show you why I'm not readily accepting its inherent logic as valid:
Hmmm, I (creator) should try out this Interwebz thing.
Ooooh, a hundred times as many people patting me on the back! I'm famous now!
Umh, wait, there's a hundred times as many people pecking on me now, too.
Bad people! Leave my corner of the Interwebz!
Yes, I'm aware that communicating in the Internet is not always just a ceteris paribus hundredfold of your RL social circle, that there are amplification effects and that the percentage of "bad eggs" is not necessarily exactly the same on both sides, but that doesn't make it reasonable to expect something along the lines of "multiplied yay but not more nay (in absolute numbers) than before". (Not to forget that if something like that were to happen, the addressee would quite likely go "you're so in the minority with that negative opinion" next.)
You want to tell people that they're worse persons online than in RL? Go ahead, but they'll put more burden of proof on you than "just look how many you are [here in the Place Of Many]" is going to fulfill.
To be clear: in my case, I've been commenting here specifically because, as far as she said, Minna is not reading the forum. I'm sure that having this space to vent is keeping a lot of the criticism off disqus (and by extension, Minna's face).I guess I'm middle ground there, then. I've always accepted that even if Minna says she doesn't (usually) read the forum, and verifiably doesn't openly have an account here, doesn't mean she'll never have a single look at what is publicly readable. (For all I know, Finnish culture could totally have a Leave Your Comfort Zone Day.) Not to mention her family. Or just anyone supporting and informing her. In real time, or after the fact. Minna will likely never learn what I write here, and I can reasonably claim that by putting it here, I'm not shoving things into her face, but no guarantees.
I rather doubt the conversation would have gone anywhere useful.After having pinpointed (on Disqus, through several rounds of clarification) that page 72 does make part of what he calls "the comic" that he believes to "stand on its own" as Minna claimed, the logical thing for me to do would be to re-raise the question of who the in-comic speaker uttering the text on that page supposedly is.
I've tried several times to draft a reaction to his post here; but that also tends to go nowhere useful.
But, frankly, if he's been seeing that wall of text all the time and took it as part of "the comic", and were willing to let me challenge the claim of "it's all a self-contained story independent of Minna's soapbox", shouldn't he have gotten that reference without the painstaking discussion of "does your browser really show something other than mine?"
LOL yes, it's an excellent drawing! The bunny comic, distilled to its simplest theme (minus christianity).If a tad oversimplified. (Both "I cannot make myself a better person quite as fast as I can throw" and "we established that Alizongle is BAD nonetheless" would be valid reasons to get rid of that phone. It's the going "my, I'm such a good person now!" immediately afterwards that seals the lack of self-reflection.)
Honestly, even if he did understand - and maybe he does - what could he say to his daughter to get *her* to understand?Well, he would be in a position to point out to her the times in their common past when she was No True
Post by: catbirds on April 27, 2021, 02:50:54 AM
I'm not sure it will be helpful, and that's the sad part.
If, after reading this thread, he still doesn't have any grasp of the problematic nature of LP and (more importantly), why people have reacted the way we have to the comic and even more so our reaction to Minna's writeup at the end ... I have to conclude that he sees nothing wrong with where she's at and is himself part of the problem. Which is a shame and I hope I'm wrong.
Just to clarify this before I go off to bed: I have 100% Fully Totally Absolutely given up on the possibility, even the slightest chance, that either of them will sit down at a dinner table and go, "hm, why are people saying Minna's comic might be offensive?" I have completely abandoned the possibility of Minna having a moment of self-awareness where she goes, "maybe Cancel Culture isn't the problem after all and maybe I made a mistake" or "hm, maybe I am falling for three conspiracy theories at once." Like, this has been developing for five years, if not more since Emil said [redacted]. In my books, she's now solidly off in whatever made-up land she's in where the Evil Internet Cancel Culture Mob is out there to get her for saying something [checks smudged writing on hand] racist. (You can replace this with any name for the respective negative attitude towards a demographic she's insulted. I can think of at least five off the top of my head.)
Whatever they'll sit down at the dinner table to discuss (metaphorically) is none of our business, but there's no way it won't come up in a conversation between them. And the small droplet of empathy I still have for Minna in this situation is going to hoping that her familial relationship doesn't suffer because of this comic and any discussion the comic has caused. Why? I don't know, not everything people feel is rational.
If a tad oversimplified. (Both "I cannot make myself a better person quite as fast as I can throw" and "we established that Alizongle is BAD nonetheless" would be valid reasons to get rid of that phone. It's the going "my, I'm such a good person now!" immediately afterwards that seals the lack of self-reflection.)
Well, I mean, at least one of us is paying attention to what's going on in the story. Soldier on, JoB.
In the worst timeline where Minna's "Brave" "New" "Bunny" Comic makes it to my eleventh grade English teacher's shelves (and he loves this kind of thing...), I'll make sure to sneak this message to the kids.
Post by: Jitter on April 27, 2021, 09:29:39 AM
The following is from me, not from the Forum staff.
Could we not discuss Minna's dad and his comments any further? He wrote here and in the Disqus comments, but he's just another commenter. He's not our creator and artist, and not someone whose work is under scrutiny here. Responding to him is 100 % fine, but now he's said he left and we are probably able to leave it at that?
I'm not convinced it's necessary for us to keep speculating about what he thinks or doesn't think, or what he talks about with Minna or not. In any case Minna is an adult and lives in a different area altogether than her parents so it's not like they are going to be sitting together for dinner all the time. And even if it were, he is not a central figure here.
I don't think we would be discussing just another Forum member, who has already said they won't be participating in the discussion any more, at such length. At least I hope we wouldn't. While Jouni was the one who brought up his direct connection with Minna, that doesn't mean he equals Minna and we shouldn't think he does, even if it does muddy up the artist / audience line just like many of you commented.
I don't want to be tone policing, and I definitely don't think we should tolerate intolerance. But I do think we must make a difference between Minna's father and Minna the artist.
Post by: SkyWhalePod on April 27, 2021, 10:20:14 AM
Could we not discuss Minna's dad and his comments any further? He wrote here and in the Disqus comments, but he's just another commenter. He's not our creator and artist, and not someone whose work is under scrutiny here. Responding to him is 100 % fine, but now he's said he left and we are probably able to leave it at that?
I'm not convinced it's necessary for us to keep speculating about what he thinks or doesn't think, or what he talks about with Minna or not. In any case Minna is an adult and lives in a different area altogether than her parents so it's not like they are going to be sitting together for dinner all the time. And even if it were, he is not a central figure here.
I don't think we would be discussing just another Forum member, who has already said they won't be participating in the discussion any more, at such length. At least I hope we wouldn't. While Jouni was the one who brought up his direct connection with Minna, that doesn't mean he equals Minna and we shouldn't think he does, even if it does muddy up the artist / audience line just like many of you commented.
I don't want to be tone policing, and I definitely don't think we should tolerate intolerance. But I do think we must make a difference between Minna's father and Minna the artist.
Agreed. Speculating isn't productive.
Post by: thegreyarea on April 27, 2021, 10:27:18 AM
Gweeno, I see your point on the amplification, however I believe the situation here at the Forum cannot be compared with a social network. This is not Minna's feed on FB. She will only come here and read this thread if she wants. She is perfectly aware doing that will take her to negative opinions. As a responsible adult, she must be ready to read those opinions and consider if they are valid or not. And if there are a lot of them it has a meaning too.
Note that I'm not talking about hate speech or personal insults, because we luckily have moderators and, as you pointed, the discussion has been civil most of the time.
An author that wants to be present on the net, usually receiving positive feedback, should also be able to hear and process critics. And if one feels those critics as personal... Well, that's probably the consequence of assuming personal beliefs as the focus of said artistic work, effectively entangling both things.
I also would like to thank you and any other mods involved for the great work. I can choose to read or not this thread according to my state of mind, but you chose to do it anyway for us, and sometimes must be hard.
Post by: Superdark33 on April 27, 2021, 11:14:34 AM
Good.
I might mock or insult or belittle or call names (all of which are hilarious by the way) on other channels and mediums, but not here.
Im not going to delve into personal life details or speculation abt how her family is taling it or whatever, i dont care about them.
But im not going to be gentle.
Post by: thorny on April 27, 2021, 12:38:19 PM
*makes sure NOT wearing the Skald's cape*
The following is from me, not from the Forum staff.
Could we not discuss Minna's dad and his comments any further? He wrote here and in the Disqus comments, but he's just another commenter.
[ . . . ]While Jouni was the one who brought up his direct connection with Minna, that doesn't mean he equals Minna and we shouldn't think he does, even if it does muddy up the artist / audience line just like many of you commented.
I don't want to be tone policing, and I definitely don't think we should tolerate intolerance. But I do think we must make a difference between Minna's father and Minna the artist.
True. But, if we're to discuss Minna's response to criticism: that response from her doesn't come out of nowhere.
And I woke up thinking that what I want to say is that I see a commonality in that response: if criticized, don't seriously think about the criticism. If there's clearly a lack of understanding, quite possibly in both directions, don't try either to understand the criticizers or to explain oneself to them. Just shut down and ignore them; and in defense of this define them and their pain and/or other criticisms as not being worth responding to -- in Minna's case by saying that we only disagree because we haven't converted to her specific branch of Christianity and everyone who hasn't is therefore bound to be wrong; in Jouni's case by announcing that anyone not posting under the name on their official legal records is very likely just a troll. And in both cases, they feel the need to tell us about it -- Minna by continuing to push Lovely People on every page of SSSS and without clear descriptions; in Jouni's case by that drive-by post.
Is Minna responding that way solely because of family influence? Of course not. But the influence of her family very likely has something to do with it -- we're all influenced by our families, although sometimes we react to that influence by opposing it. And it's not only how she responds to this particular criticism that's influenced by the framework of her mind as a whole; it's also the artwork itself.
Let me make a caricature of this argument (yes, caricatures are by definition exaggerated) to show you why I'm not readily accepting its inherent logic as valid:
Hmmm, I (creator) should try out this Interwebz thing.
Ooooh, a hundred times as many people patting me on the back! I'm famous now!
Umh, wait, there's a hundred times as many people pecking on me now, too.
Bad people! Leave my corner of the Interwebz!
Note that the influencer in Lovely People is perfectly happy with the situation as long as others are universally praising her; and is willing to betray her friends as long as others are still praising her -- but rejects the entire system absolutely and as a whole the minute the online people produce criticism instead of praise. This isn't posed as their providing thought-out criticism of something the influencer might have actually done wrong, of course -- it's posed as their knee-jerk rejecting her for something she's doing (feeling bad about losing her friends) that's actually right.
And that problem with the comic itself is coming exactly out of the mindset that happily accepts praise from any source, but rejects criticism without genuinely considering it.
Post by: Haiz on April 27, 2021, 02:39:03 PM
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/778359118397440050/836358356607303680/image0.jpg)(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/778359118397440050/836672197635604480/image0.jpg)
Post by: katiemeredith on April 27, 2021, 07:25:44 PM
I actually found the first and second act to be of much higher quality than the third, and I don't think it's just because the bible was rarely mentioned then. To me, it was clear that this was intended to be a religious take on the totalitarianism of Orwell's 1984 and the technology Bad/Society owo of Black Mirror's Nosedive (as previously mentioned here). Having recently read 1984 and I am a big fan of the 3rd season of Black Mirror, it was so interesting to see the complete absence of the Things that make 1984 and Nosedive so effective.
I am now going to do a too-long writeup on (mostly) 1984 and Nosedive, reminiscent of an in class activity for an introductory Interpretation of Literature course :)
Spoiler: show
It would be too much energy and too many opinions to express my full discontent with the way that capitalism is SO present and pretty much the big reason why Alizongle sukz and the World Council is able to keep people happy (with overconsumption). One of my gripes with this story is that it could have been a lot better if Minna was picked up by a group of theory connoisseurs versus a religious sect. To each their own, I suppose.
I really like(d) Minna's work, so it was sort of jarring to see a decrease in quality.
If the World Council didn't like True Bible, then why would it continue to exist for the days/weeks (?) that it did?
Why did it take 2.5/3 acts for the True Bible to be deemed bad? I didn't even know Influencer Bunny was religious until she said "sike!" at the end! Where was the anger from in Influencer's apology video? I feel like the audience was only shown how passionate she was about influencing others, even if that meant lying. Not as if we were keyed in on that being a problem, though.
As much as I dislike evangelizing, I would have rather read well-written story that I agree with rather than a poorly-written story that reaffirms my beliefs.
Post by: Róisín on April 28, 2021, 01:32:29 AM
Post by: SkyWhalePod on April 28, 2021, 10:30:15 AM
What Katie said, mostly. But I also think that we should cut Jouni some slack. I can tell you from personal experience just how hard it can get being the parent of someone famous in his own right, as in my younger son, or married to someone more famous though having some fame in her own right, as in my youngest daughter. It can be hard to deal with people having Opinions about your kid, or their work, with which you may seriously disagree, or having them trying to use the connection to get close to/exploit/get an insider story about your kid. Makes life hard sometimes, and I come from a family that has older members who are writers, politicians and the like, so am probably more used to it. Just worth a mention.
Thanks for the thought, Róisín. As somebody who was raised as an only child by a single father, my heart goes out whenever a dad steps into a mess for their kid. It doesn't become a magic wand that waves away whatever he says, but it does give me more sympathy.
Post by: Windfighter on April 28, 2021, 10:40:31 AM
Spoiler: show
Post by: thorny on April 28, 2021, 11:52:00 AM
Post by: Windfighter on April 28, 2021, 12:46:15 PM
Windfighter, are you talking about downvotes on the Discus comments? I'm not seeing them here.
Oh ye, I meant in the disqus comments :P I figured that was obvious since I mentioned Minna shutting them off and she's not on the forum but I could have been clearer, sorry!
Post by: JoB on April 28, 2021, 12:55:02 PM
Edit: It is of course also a possibility that we've had that option for a while but since people who regulary hang around knew downvotes weren't possible (or even something we did) they just didn't tryI remember downvotes being disabled (as in, people tried and they didn't work) years ago, and wondering about a downvote - a Guest downvote, no less! - on one of my posts at some time within the last year or so, before LP, so I'd vote for the "Disqus broke Minnas config" scenario.
(Sorry for not posting a specific example, but there doesn't seem to be any other way to find such than scrolling through entire comment sections and picking it up by eyeball.)
(Edit: Got one (http://sssscomic.com/comic2.php?page=349#comment-5111065059).)
Post by: Windfighter on April 28, 2021, 01:16:48 PM
I remember downvotes being disabled (as in, people tried and they didn't work) years ago, and wondering about a downvote - a Guest downvote, no less! - on one of my posts at some time within the last year or so, before LP, so I'd vote for the "Disqus broke Minnas config" scenario.
(Sorry for not posting a specific example, but there doesn't seem to be any other way to find such than scrolling through entire comment sections and picking it up by eyeball.)
(Edit: Got one (http://sssscomic.com/comic2.php?page=349#comment-5111065059).)
I would have believed you even without an example, but thanks for informing me! Stupid Disqus breaking things for us, but it feels less =/? now so that's nice!
Post by: Kis on April 28, 2021, 01:18:57 PM
I see people saying we used to never do it as if it was a kindness we showed
Oof, I am definitely one of those people. I apologize for misinforming others, I didn't even know turning off downvoting was possible O_o But now that I think of it, it does sound like something Minna would do. What a bummer. Or, more exactly, what a series of bummers which just keep pouring from all directions now :/
Post by: catbirds on April 28, 2021, 01:30:21 PM
I would have believed you even without an example, but thanks for informing me! Stupid Disqus breaking things for us, but it feels less =/? now so that's nice!
For what it's worth, there wasn't much of a reason to downvote prior to people coming in with opinions about LP. Not that I checked it much, but wasn't it mostly praise, poetry, and fun theories? The exception would be JoB's link to comments related to the american election and other political events, which were in theory not allowed in the comments but uhhh not anymore (LP is inherently political in the modern context, so it makes little sense to ban politics when you're always providing a link to LP). That is, unless you had some particularly strong unpopular opinion on kade physiology, but uhhh, why would anyone? (If you do, that's cool)
*of course, any downvotes at this point is just proof that Lovely People was a brave thing to publish because anyone speaking against the harsh way it delivered its message is running propaganda for the Woke SJWs and thus deserves downvotes and any downvotes on a post saying Lovely People is thoughtful and brave is just the Woke SJWs trying to cancel Minna just like the comic warns about. But eh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I know this is sarcasm but this is too accurate :')
Post by: Windfighter on April 28, 2021, 02:08:26 PM
Oof, I am definitely one of those people. I apologize for misinforming others, I didn't even know turning off downvoting was possible O_o But now that I think of it, it does sound like something Minna would do. What a bummer. Or, more exactly, what a series of bummers which just keep pouring from all directions now :/
Oh no, as JoB kindly informed me - it used to be like that but it seems disqus actually screwed it up around a year ago, and like catbirds says there hasn't been much need for downvotes! I do still think a lot of people remembered that we used to be unable to and thus didn't bother to do it (proof: my post xD), but it's less bummering knowing it's been like that for a while and I just didn't notice it!
Post by: thegreyarea on April 28, 2021, 03:07:13 PM
Oh no, as JoB kindly informed me - it used to be like that but it seems disqus actually screwed it up around a year ago, and like catbirds says there hasn't been much need for downvotes! I do still think a lot of people remembered that we used to be unable to and thus didn't bother to do it (proof: my post xD), but it's less bummering knowing it's been like that for a while and I just didn't notice it!I don't recall that downvotes were off anytime, but I believe you and JoB. However it happened to me several times to accidentally downvote some comment when using my phone (big fingers+small screen combination...) and I remember downvoting some very rare unpolite commentary.
(note that I'm on Disqus only since April 2018, so they could have been off before that)
The truth is that we had very few situations when a downvote was appropriate before this recent storm, so we could spend weeks without seeing one.
Post by: JoB on April 28, 2021, 03:13:40 PM
but it seems disqus actually screwed it up around a year ago(Or longer. As I said, I only noticed when a downvote appeared on one of my posts. Not that I'm not controversial occasionally, but not at the "I'll try to hack downvoting open again just to get at him!!" level. I hope.)
FWIW, I still remember the day when guests like myself were suddenly disallowed from leaving upvotes, so there definitively have been changes rolled out by Disqus over SSSS' lifetime.
the american election and other political events, which were in theory not allowed in the comments but uhhh not anymore (LP is inherently political in the modern context, so it makes little sense to ban politics when you're always providing a link to LP).Don't know whether I would label religion as something necessarily political, but yes, "you forbade politics as being too inflammatory and now you bring in religion yourself!?" did cross my mind early on (before she locked the comments for a bunch of pages in a row) ...
Spoiler: show
Post by: catbirds on April 28, 2021, 04:32:33 PM
Don't know whether I would label religion as something necessarily political, but yes, "you forbade politics as being too inflammatory and now you bring in religion yourself!?" did cross my mind early on (before she locked the comments for a bunch of pages in a row) ...
Oops, language is confusing! I meant political not strictly in terms of things related to your ballot, but in the sense of taking a hard (ish) stance on real-world issues including technology, authoritarian governments, etc… but I think that's more of the way the word is used on the internet. Though the bible gets quoted occasionally in political debates (at least here in Canada), never (rarely?) as the central justification for policies, but almost always to add some rhetorical strength.
For SSSS/Minna Sundberg's internet presence, I'm not sure of how strictly she bans politics because on the one hand, explicit discussions about politics/elections get shut down immediately, but on the other hand she's also been pretty lax about joking about dictatorships and human experimentation on twitch sooo… ???
Spoiler: show
Spoiler: show
Post by: Vulpes on April 28, 2021, 07:52:44 PM
Spoiler: show
Spoiler: show
Post by: thorny on April 28, 2021, 08:15:49 PM
Post by: Draco Probabilisticus on April 30, 2021, 10:13:58 PM
While reading the comic back when I did I hadn't really noticed the things you talked about like the lack of Saami people and non-white people in general (actually, IIRC I was a bit surprised by the latter, but didn't think much about it) because I knew nothing about Minna's views or her life in general. But now that I'm rethinking it with the context in place... the fact that the pandemic in SSSS begins with 11 illegal immigrants arriving on the Spanish coast is, uh... interesting.
I don't want to draw any strong conclusions about Minna's worldview here, I just found that detail fitting with the discussion above.
Post by: JoB on May 01, 2021, 02:37:14 AM
the fact that the pandemic in SSSS begins with 11 illegal immigrants arriving on the Spanish coast is, uh... interesting.To be fair, if the Rash had entered Europe / transcontinental circulation by means of legal travelers / live animal shippings / goods transport, the blame would promptly have been pinned on a specific nation / region and the (intended, per Minna) obscurity about its origins would have become that much less believable.
Europe itself has been too populated for too long to be a believable source of a major unknown contagious disease anymore IMHO.
Post by: esedege on May 01, 2021, 07:01:07 AM
I cannot agree with you JoB about the impossibility of a disease to be of European origin, there are studies that put the Spanish flu origin in France, and the mad cow disease ravaged the UK. Furthermore, our current pandemic’s origin is supposed to be somewhere in China, which is an area populated since ancient times.
Post by: Yuuago on May 01, 2021, 08:29:15 AM
I cannot agree with you JoB about the impossibility of a disease to be of European origin, there are studies that put the Spanish flu origin in France, and the mad cow disease ravaged the UK. Furthermore, our current pandemic’s origin is supposed to be somewhere in China, which is an area populated since ancient times.
Seconding this.
In fact, "A European country is the origin point of a mysterious disease" is a premise that's been done elsewhere - the first season of the tv series Fortitude is entirely about melting ice in Norway exposing an ancient/unknown source of contagion, and not once did I find it too much of a stretch for the story. (Considering the real cases in recent years where melting permafrost in other locations exposed anthrax etc.)
And then of course there's the fact that SSSS is not-entirely-realistic fiction, and the author has handwaved lots of other things... The origin choice is a deliberate choice, and taken with everything else, is a pretty unfortunate one.
Post by: Draco Probabilisticus on May 01, 2021, 08:52:07 AM
Even before this whole mess happened, I had believed for a while that Minna was losing interest in SSSS. The second story is... lackluster in terms of storytelling. I mean, we're past page 400 and there has been little to no character development or interesting dialogues beyond flashbacks, and plotwise all that's been happening for a while is one big Benny Hill
Post by: JoB on May 01, 2021, 09:39:03 AM
I cannot agree with you JoB about the impossibility of a disease to be of European origin, there are studies that put the Spanish flu origin in France, and the mad cow disease ravaged the UK. Furthermore, our current pandemic’s origin is supposed to be somewhere in China, which is an area populated since ancient times.... you have a point, though possibly not the one you were trying to make. Pardon me for skipping the Spanish Flu, whose mechanisms I haven't looked into at depth, and addressing only the other two:
Spoiler: one dose of mathematician ... • show
In fact, "A European country is the origin point of a mysterious disease" is a premise that's been done elsewhere - the first season of the tv series Fortitude is entirely about melting ice in Norway exposing an ancient/unknown source of contagion, and not once did I find it too much of a stretch for the story. (Considering the real cases in recent years where melting permafrost in other locations exposed anthrax etc.)
Spoiler: ... and a pinch of nerdgasm • show
Post by: thorny on May 01, 2021, 10:37:34 AM
Europe itself has been too populated for too long to be a believable source of a major unknown contagious disease anymore IMHO.
Areas refugees have been coming to Europe from have been populated for longer than Europe and many have had dense populations for quite some time.
Spoiler: ... and a pinch of nerdgasm • show
There are bodies of various species including human buried in ice that is now melting. Production of a disease that causes a resurgence of the Norse gods seems to me more likely to have come from some such source.
In addition, if the Rash was engineered by humans, whether intentionally or by accident, that seems at least as likely to have happened in Europe or North America as in the global South; and more likely to have been done in an area not producing refugees than in one that is.
-- the speed of the spread has always seemed rather improbable to me; nearly every human on the planet's dead within a few weeks. That's seemed to me to require a magic component; and also to make it nearly impossible to tell where it started -- with the human world collapsing in all directions, how would it be possible to do the research needed to tell whether the first cases were actually on that ship or wherever the ship came from, or whether the people on the ship had caught it from an early case brought from somewhere else? On first reading, I had taken the announcement of the origin to be meant as simply somebody's guess -- there would have been a lot of false information on TV, some of it quite possibly on purpose as people tried to shift blame and/or calm populations, some of it purely by accident due to the essential confusion of the situation. If Minna's stated that that origin is full scale canon, that's also a deliberate authorial choice. It isn't something she was forced into by the nature of the story.
And having the disease enter Europe via refugees isn't a problem taken by itself -- but in combination with other information, (and with "illegal refugees" which as has been pointed out is a contradiction in terms) it looks rather iffy. There were most definitely other choices.
Post by: esedege on May 01, 2021, 11:31:11 AM
... you have a point, though possibly not the one you were trying to make. Pardon me for skipping the Spanish Flu, whose mechanisms I haven't looked into at depth, and addressing only the other two:Spoiler: one dose of mathematician ... • show
Well, that's the point I wanted to make. I didn't went into details about the origin of neither of them, as Minna left hers vague.
Pertaining our incumbent coronavirus pandemic, certain sectors of Spain population are quite fond of hunting, which I guess is not unusual in Europe. So it's possible that right now there's some guy not even 50 Km away from me hunting a diseased-ridden wild boar with the potential of it being carrying a transmisible human disease (if it's open season, IDK). So there's still that wild-civilization connection here too, no need for animal black market (though it's a great addition I was not considering).
I think my point stands: Europe, though populated since Prehistoric times, is capable of inadvertently 'creating' a disease, which is exactly what I didn't agree with you about.
And, as thorny says, if it was human-engineered, refugees arriving to Spain are not the logical population to experiment upon.
Post by: Tarnagh on May 01, 2021, 07:42:13 PM
https://www.history.com/news/why-was-it-called-the-spanish-flu
Quote
While it’s unlikely that the “Spanish Flu” originated in Spain, scientists are still unsure of its source. France, China and Britain have all been suggested as the potential birthplace of the virus, as has the United States, where the first known case was reported at a military base in Kansas on March 11, 1918. Researchers have also conducted extensive studies on the remains of victims of the pandemic, but they have yet to discover why the strain that ravaged the world in 1918 was so lethal.
Post by: katiemeredith on May 01, 2021, 07:59:32 PM
Even before this whole mess happened, I had believed for a while that Minna was losing interest in SSSS. The second story is... lackluster in terms of storytelling.
You mean you don't LOVE reading 200 pages of People Hunting Really Tough Bears?
Seriously, I think that the first adventure of SSSS was great, but this one is not only poorly written, but also extremely boring and not memorable at all. Like, why are they even hunting the bears anymore? Because they're like, friends with Lalli's monster grandma? The recent chapters/past 200-300 or so pages have been not engaging at all. This totally gives off the vibe that Minna has lost interest in SSSS. I could be misremembering, but didn't she imply there were going to be more adventures than 2? Like 5? The first adventure was about the first real exploration into the lost world, and set up a clear path to take forward, if so desired. This adventure was really cool at the beginning, as Lalli's grandma's story really intrigued me. However, I think that ending the whole "series" on a note like this is sort of odd. Although, to be fair, it hasn't even ended yet.
It's interesting - and sad to see the decreasing in quality of writing, with this and with Lovely People. I mean, you can't even give Lovely People the benefit of the doubt, because this is a topic that is clearly very important to Minna. I know little to nothing about writing stories, so it would be useless for me to speculate on why this drop in quality is occuring...
Post by: Tarnagh on May 01, 2021, 08:48:40 PM
I could be misremembering, but didn't she imply there were going to be more adventures than 2? Like 5?If you're misremembering, then so am I. I remember something from Minna (or someone else saying Minna had said, not sure) saying that she planned an adventure in each of the countries of the Known World. The first was Denmark, this one is Finland. Missing are Iceland, Sweden, and Norway. Pretty sure those aren't happening now. If she makes it to them dispatching the Kade, I'll be genuinely surprised. At this point I almost expect a "Rocks fall, everyone dies" ending just so Minna can be shut of SSSS and move on to her new pet project fully. :(
Post by: Jitter on May 01, 2021, 09:08:15 PM
There ha been a lot about the bears. A LOT. But, they are in the cover, which was drawn before her conversion, so they were meant to feature strongly even at that time.
Post by: Aprillen on May 02, 2021, 03:00:09 PM
That discomfort is not waning with the years, rather the reverse. And I think it has largely to do with it being a proselytising religion. And the message, when boiled down to its bare bones (and looked at from the outside, with no other religion colouring my perception) looks like the worst kind of scam. You know, when you sell something to somebody that they've never needed before, by convincing them that they are in fact bad people and even in severe peril unless they drink this koolaid and join the cult -- convincing someone that they are in danger so that the cult can come in and save them from the imaginary danger. And once they do they will somehow be better than everybody else. (I'm sorry if this is offensive to anyone; I'm just trying to express what makes me uncomfortable with the religion, and I understand that everyone has different experiences.)
I've been reading Minna's comics since some point in the latter half of ARTD, so I was along from the start of SSSS, when there were only 50-odd comments on every page, slowly growing, until there were hundreds, and I had to accept that I couldn't keep up with them anymore. (Some of you may remember me from those earlier days, most of you probably won't.) I just went to the comic and caught up with the new pages since the chapter break ended, and it seems as if the number of comments have gone down again, but it's not the fun and exhilarating experience to read them as it used to be. I see that some of you are still there, but mostly it seems to be new people who are cheering the new religious aspect of Minna.
And most sadly of all, despite Minna having said that she will continue the present storyline according to its original intent, I somehow didn't enjoy reading the new pages. Somehow the magic has gone out of it for me. This is probably an irrational reaction on my part, but I found myself skimming them, flipping the pages in an attempt to get through it. And the huge advertisement for LP right below the comic didn't help. I felt... sad.
I confess that I haven't read LP. As soon as I saw the words "Christian homemaker" in the blurb, I got cold feet. So I came here to read what you have all written about it, and what I found didn't encourage me to read it. I get anxious just thinking about it. I hope you can forgive me for coming here and joining the discussion without having read it, but I felt like I have somehow lost this comic and the community around it (even if I haven't been very active for the past few years).
Post by: Jitter on May 02, 2021, 03:23:53 PM
While you are here, do take a look around! We have decided we’ll keep the community going! So you are welcome to join us here more often!
Post by: Róisín on May 03, 2021, 12:37:15 AM
I second your feelings about LP, though I come from the viewpoint of a lifelong Pagan who feels strongly that a religious choice is at least as personal and private a matter as a marriage, and really nobody else’s business outside the person and the god involved. I think it is the One True Way aspect that disgusts me, and the insistent proselytising. We are actively forbidden to proselytise, though we may explain if asked or if in a situation where that is expected. And it is sad to see the decline in quality of writing and art.
Post by: catbirds on May 03, 2021, 02:24:31 AM
Aprillen, hi! Good to hear from you (I don't think I have yet). One of the neat (?) things about this thread is that it did bring back quite a few people, even if the circumstances are uhhh... these. As a half-reply half-personal thing:
It's weird that I personally didn't really have a problem with the faith aspect (I also don't have any religious trauma). A pretty large number of my friends have found comfort in their faith, and I was pretty... alright with it throughout high school? But, hm, reading this thread has been a learning experience for me, mostly as a look into how some Christians perceive their own faith... I've been told a number of times that my morals are lacking because I never decided to think of a god, but it's been pretty easy to brush off because from an outsider's perspective it just sounds kinda nonsensical...???
So, for that, I'm not sure about the whole cult aspect of the conversation because my friends were just, y'know, typical Christian churchgoers, most of them orthodox. The end notes for LP made sense when considered through the orthodox lens because of that. You could also make an argument that maybe there are some aspects of orthodox Christianity that are, in the current context, inherently unhealthy, but many people have arguments against that too (which I don't know enough about to counter).
As a bit of a counterpoint, a friend I have who is from an area in Asia that was violently colonized for a While and converted by missionaries ended up with very conflicting feelings about her faith, despite her initial sense of comfort. In no way is she an exception to the rule, either... But this side of the conversation is a Lot, has a Lot of Dots that I'm not willing to connect on my own for my lack of knowledge about Christianity.
For a couple years and I think even now, I had generally positive feelings towards Christianity as a whole and saw it as a good thing if one chose it, but reading this thread... it's made me reexamine some experiences I've had. I didn't really write this out to prove a point or anything, just to map out some very confusing bits about the Christian faith from what I've gathered over several years, that I felt were somewhat relevant to some points you and some others have brought up. Maybe that's it, Christianity is Confusing and its impact on the world is Confusing, though proselytizing gets a solid pass from me.
Hmm... as a closing note, I'd say don't worry about reading LP. And as the content warning implies, I even more strongly insist against reading the afterword. The story itself was lukewarm (not in a good way?), so not impossible to stomach.
ON A MORE POSITIVE NOTE! This whole LP thing and the changes Minna has planned got a lot of people talking about how they use the internet. I know people's feelings of emptiness for SSSS are generally considered a bad thing, but I got something good out of it? I've been seeing the internet as a burden and an obligation, more or less willing to see it as the dumpster fire that it is (aka desensitization). I've come to realize that the internet should be an enjoyable thing. At least, it seems like a better way to include it in your life.
Post by: Jitter on May 03, 2021, 04:50:52 AM
Someone also just posted on the Disqus comments a lengthy comment about how a Christianity-focused worldview and even a story strongly about Christianity can be very many things, and how the future works maybe could build on that and become rich stories instead of thinly-veiled proselytizing. Let's remain hopeful!
Post by: Aprillen on May 03, 2021, 06:17:00 AM
Aprillen, hi! Good to hear from you (I don't think I have yet). One of the neat (?) things about this thread is that it did bring back quite a few people, even if the circumstances are uhhh... these. As a half-reply half-personal thing:Hello Catbirds! Nice to meet you!
It's weird that I personally didn't really have a problem with the faith aspect (I also don't have any religious trauma). A pretty large number of my friends have found comfort in their faith, and I was pretty... alright with it throughout high school? But, hm, reading this thread has been a learning experience for me, mostly as a look into how some Christians perceive their own faith... I've been told a number of times that my morals are lacking because I never decided to think of a god, but it's been pretty easy to brush off because from an outsider's perspective it just sounds kinda nonsensical...???
I generally don't have a problem with other people having a faith, especially if it brings them comfort and helps them be better versions of themselves -- but I get very uncomfortable when they start telling me things about what a bad person I am and how apparently nobody can have any sort of moral compass simply out of their own sense of fairness, kindness and compassion? As if they believe that without being told to follow the Christian moral codes (on pain of Hellfire) everyone would just default to indiscriminate violence, abuse and crime? I consider myself as having a very strong inner moral compass, and in some cases it even overlaps with Christian morals. But the thing is that violence, greed, abuse and crime aren't less prevalent in Christian countries, and some of the countries with the strongest Christian traditions also have some of the highest rates of violent crime, and also abuses that are sanctioned (or at least tolerated) by the religious communities. I know that Christians do a lot of good, but I don't think they do more good in general than, say, buddhists, or even atheists. So when people start proselytising at me, I find it hard to stomach. Like Roisin has said, proselytising is not an integral part of every religion. There are plenty of religions in the world that don't proselytise at all, or do it on a much more discreet scale than the Christian and Islamic sects, and those religions don't seem to bother me nearly as much.
Quote
As a bit of a counterpoint, a friend I have who is from an area in Asia that was violently colonized for a While and converted by missionaries ended up with very conflicting feelings about her faith, despite her initial sense of comfort. In no way is she an exception to the rule, either... But this side of the conversation is a Lot, has a Lot of Dots that I'm not willing to connect on my own for my lack of knowledge about Christianity.I've been consuming a lot of Asian media (web novels, drama series, movies) in the past year, and in the discussions I've had with people about those, colonialism often crops up, and the way Christian mission was in fact just another way of colonising, even if it was spiritual and cultural rather than military and political, but it certainly went hand in hand with those. Christian mission has steamrolled over and obliterated so many rich and complex cultures with long traditions of spirituality, and destroyed the evidence of them in the process (something we all gasped in collective shock over when jihadists did/do the same in SWANA countries). Some of those countries had a lot more diversity and acceptance toward completely harmless things like nudity, pre-marriage sex or LGBTQ+ people before colonisation than the West did, and now they are among the most conservative and intolerant cultures in the world. So I can understand how a Christian person in one of those countries might feel very conflicted about their faith. On one hand, it's a source of strength and comfort. On the other, it's a tool of oppression and of a war on their culture. And non-Christians may have an even bleaker view on Christianity.
Perhaps Christians need to believe and tout the moral superiority of their faith in order not to feel ashamed of its history?
Quote
Hmm... as a closing note, I'd say don't worry about reading LP. And as the content warning implies, I even more strongly insist against reading the afterword. The story itself was lukewarm (not in a good way?), so not impossible to stomach.
ON A MORE POSITIVE NOTE! This whole LP thing and the changes Minna has planned got a lot of people talking about how they use the internet. I know people's feelings of emptiness for SSSS are generally considered a bad thing, but I got something good out of it? I've been seeing the internet as a burden and an obligation, more or less willing to see it as the dumpster fire that it is (aka desensitization). I've come to realize that the internet should be an enjoyable thing. At least, it seems like a better way to include it in your life.
Thank you! I might try and read it at some point when I feel more emotionally stable than I do right now. But it would be merely out of curiosity, and not because I have any real wish to read it.
The internet is a highly problematic place, but at its best, it's certainly a source of joy, a way to connect with people and exchange ideas and art and companionship. For me and other people who struggle with real life social interactions, the benefits definitely outweigh the downsides. But I have found that you need to learn how to regulate it.
Post by: thegreyarea on May 03, 2021, 06:24:59 AM
Seconding what catbirds and Jitter said.
I grew in Brazil, a predominantly catholic country, and met wonderful catholics that went to great lenghts to help those in need, and also depicable catholics that rejected anyone that falls out of the rule (and there were those that just used religion for their own interests...). I studied on a catholic school (public school were, and are, sadly undefunded) and we obviously had religious studies, mostly on the Faith, that I, and my coleagues, found increasingly boring. But in the final years those classes covered comparative studies with other faiths, including the most relevant ones (monotheistic or not), explained without any prejudice (as far as I can recall). Those were very interesting.
There is wonderful art based on religion in general and on Christianity in particular. So I join the hope that Minna's future works will let go the proselytizing words and focus on the bright side of the religion.
Post by: Kevin_Redcrow on May 03, 2021, 11:30:39 PM
. I don't have any deep traumatic experiences with the Christian religion, but it has always made me deeply uncomfortable, and I actually left the Church of Sweden at around 13, the age when everyone else was starting to talk about their confirmation
I remember fantasizing irrationally when I about 9, as my family drove to church, wishing the Old Gods still existed and you got to pick your god.
I grew up in the liberal wing of the Presbyterian Church, and had never met any fundamentalists, evangelicals, or charismatics. When I got close to confirmation age, the implications of the central doctrine began to trouble me. I blew off confirmation and my parents did not pressure me.
Shortly thereafter, we moved to a part of the country that was saturated with conservative and ultraconservative churches. During my teens the spiritual terrorism of these churches began to seep in.
That discomfort is not waning with the years, rather the reverse. )
I had stopped thinking about the toxic aspects of christianity for a long time, and nobody I knew was among the conservative believers. Then we got a couple of them at work, which I politely ignored, and then Lovely People happened. All the bad feelings I haven't had for years rushed back. So I count myself among those here who were deeply traumatized by christianity.
Somehow the magic has gone out of it for me. This is probably an irrational reaction on my part, but I found myself skimming them, flipping the pages in an attempt to get through it. And the huge advertisement for LP right below the comic didn't help. I felt... sad.
Same here. My first post details the basis of my sadness. If you care to read, it's on Page 20 of this thread.
Post by: catbirds on May 04, 2021, 04:17:12 AM
I get very uncomfortable when they start telling me things about what a bad person I am and how apparently nobody can have any sort of moral compass simply out of their own sense of fairness, kindness and compassion? As if they believe that without being told to follow the Christian moral codes (on pain of Hellfire) everyone would just default to indiscriminate violence, abuse and crime? I consider myself as having a very strong inner moral compass, and in some cases it even overlaps with Christian morals. But the thing is that violence, greed, abuse and crime aren't less prevalent in Christian countries, and some of the countries with the strongest Christian traditions also have some of the highest rates of violent crime, and also abuses that are sanctioned (or at least tolerated) by the religious communities.
Yeah, this is spot-on what this thread (and some other outside comments) made me realize. It made me think about what they were talking about when they considered me somewhat amoral? I've heard and pretty strongly believe that more or less everyone considers themselves "good" or at least well-intentioned to some degree, and while studying your faith can be a path to that or provide the scaffolding for your morals (or maybe... keep you from being your worst?), the belief that you are infallible to doing something with a bad consequence is something you need to be wary of on the other end... I mean, based on what you said, I think we can both agree that the reason we aren't doing Bad things on purpose is not because we aren't Good Christians, though others may learn that you shouldn't do Bad things on purpose through a religious lens (and that is a way! But not The Only Way! ...huh, I accidentally repeated almost verbatim a line from the Bunny Comic)
(Not that people who don't have religion in their lives are inherently better or immune to Bad, either. We're all human.)
Some people also try to denounce people who use Christianity as a motivation for abuses/discrimination (saying they're Not Real Christians), but unfortunately I think that's a fallacy that doesn't really... solve the problem. The problem of the faith as a whole being unwelcoming to the specific group being hurt by it.
...None of this is to dismiss that I still think most of my friends are better people for following the teachings of their faith. It's just on the extreme (?) end of people using faith as a means to an end or seeing it as a protective shield. Actually, that just gave me more to think about...
Like Roisin has said, proselytising is not an integral part of every religion. There are plenty of religions in the world that don't proselytise at all, or do it on a much more discreet scale than the Christian and Islamic sects, and those religions don't seem to bother me nearly as much.
Hmm, come to think of it, most atheists that I know still tend to have an appreciation for faiths that don't proselytize. I like learning about them through a historical lens myself. It depends on one's background, but proselytizing is irritating either way when you'll either a) be preached to in the context of a faith that you detached yourself from because you realized it wasn't good for you or b) be preached to by a faith that you just don't believe in and can't bring yourself to believe in because you just... don't believe in it. It just... doesn't really add up either way, though I guess it has worked considering some missionaries have been successful.
I'm not sure about Islamic sects, but I think they're so far the only ones outside of Christian sects that I've seen literal advertisements on the subway for. It felt quite surreal, mostly because I absolutely did not expect to see it on a random weekday. But, y'know, it's a similar situation there where Islam did have some good effects, but also some bad ones, depending on your perspective. I think you can find some examples in the history of the Ottoman Empire. Of course, as usual, good and bad are subjective.
I've been consuming a lot of Asian media (web novels, drama series, movies) in the past year, and in the discussions I've had with people about those, colonialism often crops up, and the way Christian mission was in fact just another way of colonising, even if it was spiritual and cultural rather than military and political, but it certainly went hand in hand with those. Christian mission has steamrolled over and obliterated so many rich and complex cultures with long traditions of spirituality, and destroyed the evidence of them in the process (something we all gasped in collective shock over when jihadists did/do the same in SWANA countries). Some of those countries had a lot more diversity and acceptance toward completely harmless things like nudity, pre-marriage sex or LGBTQ+ people before colonisation than the West did, and now they are among the most conservative and intolerant cultures in the world. So I can understand how a Christian person in one of those countries might feel very conflicted about their faith. On one hand, it's a source of strength and comfort. On the other, it's a tool of oppression and of a war on their culture. And non-Christians may have an even bleaker view on Christianity.
Perhaps Christians need to believe and tout the moral superiority of their faith in order not to feel ashamed of its history?
Spoiler: it is long • show
The internet is a highly problematic place, but at its best, it's certainly a source of joy, a way to connect with people and exchange ideas and art and companionship. For me and other people who struggle with real life social interactions, the benefits definitely outweigh the downsides. But I have found that you need to learn how to regulate it.
Yep, yep, as great as it is to have the darkest and brightest parts of humanity at your fingertips, sometimes that's a power that you shouldn't use, really. But this forum and the other places where you can find companionship if you try hard enough are good to have at your fingertips. The internet helped me meet and talk more with people I cherish, especially now in the cursed COVID-19 era where Everyone You Know is your internet friend! (help)
Catbirds, I agree with you that Christianity is Confusing. There are so many denominations and sects where even the teaching varies wildly, and on top of that is the way people interpret that in their lives... there isn't one Christianity, even inside any given denomination or sect. Finland is largely Lutheran protestant, and we have religious studies at school (yeah, no, I don't like it) so I have been taught an official version so to speak. And within that, some are very loving and embracing different people, while others are condemning everything except their own holy ways. I lost my train of thought now but yeah, confusing!
Someone also just posted on the Disqus comments a lengthy comment about how a Christianity-focused worldview and even a story strongly about Christianity can be very many things, and how the future works maybe could build on that and become rich stories instead of thinly-veiled proselytizing. Let's remain hopeful!
I am not a professional historian or even close to one, but I was pretty interested when our history teacher taught us about schisms in the church. So, yes, I am more or less aware of that spiderweb of a diagram describing just a few of the... many... sects of Christianity that exist. It's one of those cases where a small (to me) difference in belief is all the difference to a Christian, which requires outsiders to realize, yes, this is something that is deeply important to them and you have to accept that to understand the historical significance of this event and, later down the line, why all these other sects exist. (I think it's safe to do this as long as it's... safely outside of the context of colonization/the blurb beneath the spoiler)
(Here in my province within Canada, we have much more freedom in choosing what to learn about, though some people have argued that people miss out on important topics because of this. I personally was interested in the system they have in Germany, where you can choose to learn about ethics on its own OR religion for those neat High School (blhhrhf,... Gymnasium) Credits.)
I also would not turn my nose up at a story just because it has Christian themes. And! I guess knowing that there are accepting and kind people in Lutheran protestant groups is pretty good news for the future of Minna's works. I'll err on the side of caution, but hopefully her learning in the next year will provide a much, much more nuanced view of the topic.
Post by: esedege on May 04, 2021, 07:05:03 AM
I also would not turn my nose up at a story just because it has Christian themes.
catbirds, you just reminded me of a conversation I had with a friend, when I tried to explain her this LP problem. She concurred it seems wrong from A to Z but didn't understand why I have lost interest in SSSS. Civil discussion ensued; in short, she advocated for The Death of the Author. That does not mean anybody hopes something bad happens to any author! It is, instead, a way of reading and interpreting a work, where work and author are completely detached. By TDotA, when considering a work, nothing not explicitly inserted in that work exists. So neither author's intention, later explanations, even later sequels have to be considered. That'd mean that, as long as SSSS does not show itself as 'problematic,' there's no reason not to read it, as there's no link between it and LP.
I counter her by saying that taking TDotA to its logical extreme, all works were made 'yesterday' at most. And that's not fair. I can (and have) read A Christmas Carol by Dickens, tedious and proselytising as it is, and it has caused me nor a minor disturbance, as it was written 180 years ago. I've read The Lord of the Rings at least five times, and I have to have the fact that Tolkien was born in the late XIX century firmly placed in the backseat to answer for his portrayal of 'tanned peoples' as Sauron allies and his lack of compelling female characters. My enjoyment of Transmetropolitan, a 2000s graphic novel, has diminished because of the now-known fact that its author, Warren Ellis, has been behaving like its protagonist for years. (Discussion ended the moment I tried to explain why I won't read anything by Pérez Reverte –Captain Alatriste's author– nor Lovecraft, as I had forgotten she's quite fond of the latter so it wasn't a smart move on my part.)
And most sadly of all, despite Minna having said that she will continue the present storyline according to its original intent, I somehow didn't enjoy reading the new pages. Somehow the magic has gone out of it for me. This is probably an irrational reaction on my part, but I found myself skimming them, flipping the pages in an attempt to get through it. And the huge advertisement for LP right below the comic didn't help. I felt... sad.
I confess that I haven't read LP. As soon as I saw the words "Christian homemaker" in the blurb, I got cold feet.
Hi, Aprillen! You may have just missed my first post here (it's around page 33 I think?), but I subscribe everything you've said (I've had my dose of traumatic experience with Christianity tho).
I grew in Brazil, a predominantly catholic country, and met wonderful catholics that went to great lenghts to help those in need, and also depicable catholics that rejected anyone that falls out of the rule (and there were those that just used religion for their own interests...). I studied on a catholic school (public school were, and are, sadly undefunded) and we obviously had religious studies, mostly on the Faith, that I, and my coleagues, found increasingly boring. But in the final years those classes covered comparative studies with other faiths, including the most relevant ones (monotheistic or not), explained without any prejudice (as far as I can recall). Those were very interesting.
Change Brazil for Spain, and 'final years classes' for 'yay, I can finally swap Religion for Ethics!' and you've just written my education experience.
There is wonderful art based on religion in general and on Christianity in particular. So I join the hope that Minna's future works will let go the proselytizing words and focus on the bright side of the religion.
And! I guess knowing that there are accepting and kind people in Lutheran protestant groups is pretty good news for the future of Minna's works. I'll err on the side of caution, but hopefully her learning in the next year will provide a much, much more nuanced view of the topic.
I agree with your first sentence, thegrayarea. I could see this both you and catbirds say happening… if LP were a misunderstood work about the positive aspects of religion (cushion, comfort, strength, community… even growth I can accept not being a religious person myself). I wish for Minna to soften (even though I don't think I will read anything else by her), however LP is at best a cautionary tale bordering on fearmongering and at worst a paranoia-induced conspiratorial wannabe fable, and I don't think that leap to positive religion/non proselytising is possible nor even in the mid-term. But you tell me if/when I'm wrong and I'd be happy and relieved for everyone involved, I can assure you.
Post by: Windfighter on May 04, 2021, 09:44:14 AM
(I'm sure someone has already noted this in which case sorry about repeating the issue!)
Post by: peachesntea on May 04, 2021, 10:13:49 AM
Post by: thorny on May 04, 2021, 11:26:32 AM
proselytising is not an integral part of every religion. There are plenty of religions in the world that don't proselytise at all, or do it on a much more discreet scale than the Christian and Islamic sects, and those religions don't seem to bother me nearly as much.
I've been consuming a lot of Asian media (web novels, drama series, movies) in the past year, and in the discussions I've had with people about those, colonialism often crops up, and the way Christian mission was in fact just another way of colonising
I think that connection with colonialism is really apt; and I think it's the same underlying attitude; and I think it's also in a great deal of modern secular culture.
It's the attitude that 'there is only one right way to live.'
There's a massive difference between 'Hello, people who are living differently from us! We would like to visit you and trade with you, including both physical trade items and information about how each of our groups is living; and maybe you'll want to start doing some of those things and maybe not, and maybe we'll want to start doing some of your things and maybe not, and maybe some of each of our people will want to join the other group and maybe not' and 'Hello, people who are living differently from us! You're doing it wrong! We know the One Right Way To Live and we are going to teach it to you! -- by force and/or deceit if necessary.'
And the underlying attitude is IMO the same problem whether it's 'you must worship our god and follow our sexual customs' or 'you must hold land in individual title in the same fashion in which you own a pair of shoes' or 'everyone should live out in the country, living in cities is Bad' or 'everyone should live in cities, living in rural areas is Bad' (and yes I have run into both of those last two, as well as the other examples.)
Which is not to say that some ways of living don't do damage or that most or all of them couldn't be improved in some fashion. But it is to say that when you meet people who have the One True Way for Everybody to Live -- back away slowly, and prepare to defend yourself and others; it may be necessary.
So the (very bad) warning Minna had about the heavy Christian theme of Lovely People is gone again
Yeah, I noticed that too. Now it just says it's a 'cute and serious short story about a Social Credit system'.
See above about deceit.
I counter her by saying that taking TDotA to its logical extreme, all works were made 'yesterday' at most. And that's not fair.
An additional thing that bothers me about that approach is that, if one takes the author out of the work entirely, there isn't even any way of telling what any of the words mean.
The meaning of words changes both over time and over area and over social group. If one's not supposed to know anything about the author, it's not possible even to say, for instance, that somebody arguing for 'the death of the author' doesn't want to kill anybody. Because you wouldn't be allowed to know that they're talking in technical critical language, in which the phrase has a different meaning than the meaning it has 'in plain English'. [ETA: and that doesn't only change what you might think of the author, it also changes what the work itself means.]
But on the larger question -- is it OK to still love a work if you've concluded that the author's terrible? -- for one thing, it's also true that for any artwork that's shown to anybody other than its creator, some of the art happens also in the reader/viewer. And for another: we wouldn't just lose SSSS. We'd lose huge amounts of valuable work, in every field; and in some cases would not lose things only because we don't have information available about the author(s).
So for me that comes down to three issues, in no particular order: one, is the specific work bad in its essence, not just in a line here or there? two, is the work being read/heard/whatever with attention to and acknowlegement of any such lines here or there, and with awareness of less obvious issues? three, is money being spent on the work in such a fashion that it helps the author, or the author's inheritors, continue to do the bad thing?
And I think there are a whole lot of cases in which the answer to continuing to read/enjoy the work, and/or to build other work upon it, after consideration of those issues, is going to quite reasonably vary from one person to another.
But I do think it matters that the issues are considered.
Post by: thegreyarea on May 04, 2021, 11:38:42 AM
I'm pagan and I used to be Christian. My dad is a Christian who says whatever I do is a sin and my mom is a Christian who believes that God loves everyone. You can be a Christian without going about telling people to repent their sins. Minna basically told everyone that in her warning/afterword. And just now in her comment on recent video. It scares me honestly. SSSS is my hyperfixation. I really REALLY don't want Minna's personal opinions to ruin it. Ever since I've got into SSSS I've been drawing Emilalli fanart and now I'm scared and unsure. I just want to keep enjoying SSSS. I don't want to think about this. It's honestly too much. And honestly I'm not angry at her. I'm WORRIED about her and what'll happen to her work. For now, I'll just keep reading SSSS since it brings me comfort and joy.Some are more able than others to separate the author from the work. I personally feel sad for the situation and a angry by the lack of sensitivity to the way some readers were affected, but remained able to enjoy the comic (which, truth be told, would be easier without the add for LP under each page).
BTW I'm also a big Emilalli shipper, and would love to see your fanart. If you want to share it we have the SSSS Art Museum (https://ssssforum.com/index.php?topic=35.msg534#msg534) just for that! And if you want to introduce yourself we have The Introduction Thread (https://ssssforum.com/index.php?topic=131.msg4797#msg4797). And welcome! (here's a cookie :squirrelcookie: )
Post by: ChascaKhuno on May 04, 2021, 05:31:10 PM
Post by: lallivaesterstroem on May 04, 2021, 06:07:47 PM
So the (very bad) warning Minna had about the heavy Christian theme of Lovely People is gone again ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
(I'm sure someone has already noted this in which case sorry about repeating the issue!)
Sorry, maybe I missed this somehow, but... what warning? Or are we talking about the description that included "Christian homemaker"?
(To be fair, due to my experiences with Christianity, just reading that there's a "Christian homemaker" in there made me quite wary LOL but the extent to which this was taken still hit me like a ton of bricks, so)
Post by: thegreyarea on May 04, 2021, 06:53:12 PM
Sorry, maybe I missed this somehow, but... what warning? Or are we talking about the description that included "Christian homemaker"?I may be wrong, but suppose Windy is referring a previous text that described LP as something with a "spiritual and secular approach" IIRC, which is quite vague, particularly to people that aren't used with the spiritual/secular dicotomy (and considering that the author has several kinds of "spirits" on her previous works).
Post by: SkyWhalePod on May 04, 2021, 07:20:51 PM
I may be wrong, but suppose Windy is referring a previous text that described LP as something with a "spiritual and secular approach" IIRC, which is quite vague, particularly to people that aren't used with the spiritual/secular dicotomy (and considering that the author has several kinds of "spirits" on her previous works).
The current blurb on the hummingfluff site reads as you've described, with the "secular and spiritual" nod, but even the reference to a Christian homemaker is gone from that blurb.
LP's description has gone through a couple of different iterations -- there was one, I could swear, had something like 'heads up this has a strong Christian bend to it' in parentheses afterward. I have no idea where I saw it, or if I just dreamed it though. I might be thinking of the Future Works newsletter she announced a few weeks ago. Either way, that kind of blunt heads up is distinctly missing from the current online blurbs, which is a little ironic given how compelled Minna said she felt to be very blunt with Lovely People. (Source: the vlog she posted today)
Post by: catbirds on May 04, 2021, 11:21:07 PM
So the (very bad) warning Minna had about the heavy Christian theme of Lovely People is gone again ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah, the description used to include something something "Christian homemaker." This appeared in the author's notes for each SSSS page until the banner showed up, and the Christian homemaker part was like the only tip-off about Christianity. It absolutely flew over my head though! Because practically every piece of media I've seen in my entire life has included Christians by default, so I have no words to explain how unhelpful that warning is. (But as I've said, the inclusion of a christian element did not bother me. Rather, it was the overall message that the comic was trying to push.)
Now, it's just "a cute and serious story about a Social Credit system." Her description on her recent youtube videos also doesn't mention it
What'll we do...
SkyWhalePod, I've been having similar problems sorting out what actually happened after LP was released and what I dreamt up! But, no, I've checked dozens of times, the thing where she says there will be a Christian slant was for the newsletter sign-up link for her next comic.
I just watched her video, it's been making me nervous recently, honestly. Uhhh... honest thoughts? I feel like she's overestimating how much she knows about the future, and social credit systems, and what it's like to live in a dystopia. Part of that stems from basing LP off a country she knows next to nothing about. The other part might just be my growing sense of sadness.
catbirds, you just reminded me of a conversation I had with a friend, when I tried to explain her this LP problem. She concurred it seems wrong from A to Z but didn't understand why I have lost interest in SSSS. Civil discussion ensued; in short, she advocated for The Death of the Author. That does not mean anybody hopes something bad happens to any author! It is, instead, a way of reading and interpreting a work, where work and author are completely detached. By TDotA, when considering a work, nothing not explicitly inserted in that work exists. So neither author's intention, later explanations, even later sequels have to be considered. That'd mean that, as long as SSSS does not show itself as 'problematic,' there's no reason not to read it, as there's no link between it and LP.
Yeah, death of the author has come up in online discussions about literature a LOT recently. I think what you're saying is that it is better applied to literally dead authors? Forgive me if I misread. Either way, I can see that a lot of people's feelings towards SSSS were greatly soured by the events that unfolded either in the recent past or post-LP release, so death of the author does not really work in its purest form. There have been many worse instances where authors turned out to be pretty terrible, and it's pretty unfortunate that people will have to contend with having supported someone while disagreeing with a large chunk of their beliefs or actions.
The alternative, which is not a formal concept that has been dissected by scholars as far as I can tell, is "separating the art from the artist," as approximately explained by thorny and grey. I'm pretty on the fence about that concept tbh, especially if the artist has begun actively pushing their agenda as Minna is doing right now. But, y'know, SSSS has become quite special to many of us and inspired a lot of us to do things that we would not have done without it, so I understand the need to find some kind of compromise. (Further reading is available in the Future of our Fandom thread)
Post by: Tarnagh on May 04, 2021, 11:55:06 PM
I feel like she's overestimating how much she knows about the future, and social credit systems, and what it's like to live in a dystopia. Part of that stems from basing LP off a country she knows next to nothing about.Considering the sheltered life she's led (as well as her apparent unwillingness to learn from her mistakes), I'm having a hard time believing she's going to have the empathy to pull that off. I suspect I know where this is going to end up but I'm going to put that piece of jaded cynicism under a spoiler tag.
Spoiler: Jaded Cynicism Alert! • show
Post by: thorny on May 05, 2021, 12:07:01 AM
The alternative, which is not a formal concept that has been dissected by scholars as far as I can tell, is "separating the art from the artist," as approximately explained by thorny and grey.
Not sure how to explain this better, and it's probably too late at night here for me to make much of a job of it anyway: but I wasn't really trying to entirely separate the art from the artist; more to consider what of the art might be usable anyway, while acknowledging problems with the artist and how they may show up in even apparently innocuous work.
Post by: Windfighter on May 05, 2021, 01:01:43 AM
Sorry, maybe I missed this somehow, but... what warning? Or are we talking about the description that included "Christian homemaker"?
(To be fair, due to my experiences with Christianity, just reading that there's a "Christian homemaker" in there made me quite wary LOL but the extent to which this was taken still hit me like a ton of bricks, so)
Yup, I meant the "christian homemaker", which Minna seemed to only add because people asked her to warn for the Very Heavy Christianity As The One True Path(except with the prettier word which I can neither pronounce nor spell ahaha)-theme out of respect for people who have traumatic experiences from christianity
When I caught the comic it hadn't even gotten that warning, but now we're back to "oh it's just a cute bunnycomic" and honestly I'm just *flop*
anyway I put the words "very bad" there for a reason :P
Post by: Superdark33 on May 05, 2021, 04:19:28 AM
Never admitting fault ever, so when criticized of using a slur against asian people, she decided that its actually china's fault, leading her to whatever anti chinese pages were also peddling trad-christianity-fascism and there we have Lovely People.
Post by: esedege on May 05, 2021, 09:04:15 AM
Yeah, death of the author has come up in online discussions about literature a LOT recently. I think what you're saying is that it is better applied to literally dead authors? Forgive me if I misread. Either way, I can see that a lot of people's feelings towards SSSS were greatly soured by the events that unfolded either in the recent past or post-LP release, so death of the author does not really work in its purest form. There have been many worse instances where authors turned out to be pretty terrible, and it's pretty unfortunate that people will have to contend with having supported someone while disagreeing with a large chunk of their beliefs or actions.
Re-reading my previous post, I get why it sounded like that about TDotA being better when applied to dead authors, but thorny improved upon it perfectly here.
So for me that comes down to three issues, in no particular order: one, is the specific work bad in its essence, not just in a line here or there? two, is the work being read/heard/whatever with attention to and acknowlegement of any such lines here or there, and with awareness of less obvious issues? three, is money being spent on the work in such a fashion that it helps the author, or the author's inheritors, continue to do the bad thing?
And I think there are a whole lot of cases in which the answer to continuing to read/enjoy the work, and/or to build other work upon it, after consideration of those issues, is going to quite reasonably vary from one person to another.
But I do think it matters that the issues are considered.
I think we should consider works and authors with a nuanced perspective, as a complete opposite to TDotA. Our demands should be higher for today's authors because they live… well… today. We should push them towards our collective ideals of tolerance and inclusivity by our actions as consumers.
However, we shouldn't discard by default old works that don't fit neatly into those ideals, or even if they clash against them. Who was its author, when, where, how they lived? If you hold the same standard for someone living in the 21st century as for someone who lived during the 21st Dinasty of Egipt… you're in for a ride. Even worse, you'd be falling into presentism. As a broad stroke, I don't think it's even fair for the Silent Generation authors (b. 1928-1945). So, as thorny said, we should be asking ourselves if we can extract something of value from that work so we could build upon it. Let me place a kinda controversial examples inside this next spoiler
Spoiler: Nazism, Racism • show
Post by: PyroDesu on May 05, 2021, 01:48:03 PM
Considering the sheltered life she's led (as well as her apparent unwillingness to learn from her mistakes), I'm having a hard time believing she's going to have the empathy to pull that off.
I'm just going to make a quick comment on this - I've been archiving aRTD (just in case) and... I'm starting to think Hannu's characterization may have more or less been Minna writing what she knows, so to speak. Possibly the Kinnunen siblings as well.
Though her reaction to the reaction to LP is more reminiscent of Puppy-Fox...
Post by: Tarnagh on May 05, 2021, 04:48:27 PM
Quote
adblock-> right click -> block elementI use ABP. I clicked on ABP, selected the option for "block element" and it asked me to click on what I wanted to block. I did that for both panels below the main comic, and now they're both permanently gone.
For anyone who doesn't want to keep seeing them, considering they're not going to go away.
Post by: PyroDesu on May 05, 2021, 05:08:41 PM
In semi-related news, someone offered helpful advice in the comment section of page 423. I use ABP. I clicked on ABP, selected the option for "block element" and it asked me to click on what I wanted to block. I did that for both panels below the main comic, and now they're both permanently gone.
For anyone who doesn't want to keep seeing them, considering they're not going to go away.
And for those of us using uBlock Origin, either use the element picker like that or insert this:
Code: [Select]
www.sssscomic.com###comic_blogcontent > div:nth-of-type(1)into your filter list (gears icon in the toolbar menu, "my filters"). That one entry will get it all, both panels and the space they're embedded in, in one shot. It won't touch anything else - the author's notes, Disqus, etc. are all in a separate div. For some reason.(Minna's sites have some strange coding. I know the aRTD site actually looks hand-coded, at least partly. But in this instance, I'm not going to complain about an oddity that helps this blocking.)
Post by: Róisín on May 06, 2021, 01:42:19 AM
Post by: Songbird on May 06, 2021, 10:30:48 AM
And for those of us using uBlock Origin, either use the element picker like that or insert this:Code: [Select]www.sssscomic.com###comic_blogcontent > div:nth-of-type(1)into your filter list (gears icon in the toolbar menu, "my filters"). That one entry will get it all, both panels and the space they're embedded in, in one shot. It won't touch anything else - the author's notes, Disqus, etc. are all in a separate div. For some reason.
(Minna's sites have some strange coding. I know the aRTD site actually looks hand-coded, at least partly. But in this instance, I'm not going to complain about an oddity that helps this blocking.)
Good idea!
I'm pretty sure it's hand-coded or almost. The ads is styled straight on the div and doesn't have either id or class. The body of the page—author and user comments—has an id. I think this real content will also be the first div under the comic page when there's no ads, meaning it'd be hidden by accident on both older pages and future pages without the ads. To avoid this:
Code: [Select]
sssscomic.com###comic_blogcontent > div:nth-of-type(1):not([id="blog_wrapper"])This line targets the first div which isn't "blog_wrapper" (where all content under the comic page lives), catching the ads by exclusion.
And here's an alternative targeting direct children of the content div that contain an a tag wrapping the ads image:
Code: [Select]
sssscomic.com###comic_blogcontent > div:has(> a > img[src="adv2_comicimages/thumbs/newcomic.jpg"])This one should remain working if the ads div is moved to a different location in the future as long it's a direct child of "blog_wrapper".
Post by: catbirds on May 06, 2021, 10:34:25 AM
1. find 300 html tutorials to cover approximately all my bases
2. type out every line of code myself
3. copy/paste as necessary
Post by: Songbird on May 06, 2021, 11:00:35 AM
Off-topic but… is there a way not to code by hand? I've only needed html and javascript to make tumblr themes and my methods for that have always been
1. find 300 html tutorials to cover approximately all my bases
2. type out every line of code myself
3. copy/paste as necessary
Well, by "doing it by hand" I mean it's not a ready to use theme or website builder. There are a lot of free and friendly drag-and-drop options nowadays with which you just need to tweak a few lines of code at best rather than writing all style, front-end containers and back-end logic from scratch. That makes writing something from scratch unusual.
That not means splicing code or writing from zero is bad, it's just uncommon. Usually means you either need something highly specific or enjoy doing it... oooor you hate the garbage semi-automated solutions leave in the code. :'D
Post by: catbirds on May 06, 2021, 11:46:07 PM
Well, by "doing it by hand" I mean it's not a ready to use theme or website builder. There are a lot of free and friendly drag-and-drop options nowadays with which you just need to tweak a few lines of code at best rather than writing all style, front-end containers and back-end logic from scratch. That makes writing something from scratch unusual.
That not means splicing code or writing from zero is bad, it's just uncommon. Usually means you either need something highly specific or enjoy doing it... oooor you hate the garbage semi-automated solutions leave in the code. :'D
Ohhh I see, I've seen lots of ads for those but mostly ignored them because they were boring ads LOL. That, and I definitely fall in the "enjoy doing it" camp for coding. But my brief education in coding in high school told me that programming and HTML are two very, very different things.
(We learned a pretty useless language. It was visual basic, which I'm pretty sure is what my brain runs on these days.)
Okay moving on from that brief tangent. I think at one point in a stream Minna made a point about preferring to program her own sites because she's been doing it since she was like, ten or something. Her old, old sites (umbrenmetsä? Something like that) were probably hand-coded back when these drag-and-drop options were just about as user-friendly as sticking a website together with scotch tape. And Hiveworks provides their authors with a template, but y'know, maybe she preferred not to use it or something. Who knows! (but you can tell I spent way too much time sitting around during the streams)
Thorny, my bad I kind of read your post from May 4th in a haze. You explained it pretty well, don't worry! I need to stop rushing through reading forum posts.
SSSS is such a grey area IMO because there are elements in it that are suspiciously problematic, but there are also parts that are... not much? A very suspicious prologue/setup for the rash, but also it's perfectly possible for someone to just be very invested in looking at SSSS scenery. You boiled it down to three pretty helpful points, although it obviously ends up being a lot more complicated. The context of a work of fiction on both the author's end and the reader's end is a vast and endless field of factors, so IDK, maybe we need to set down some markers for the discussion moving forward.
But also this is one of those "endless" discussions where, like you said, everyone's going to have a slightly different belief :(
Post by: PyroDesu on May 07, 2021, 08:00:57 AM
Good idea!
I'm pretty sure it's hand-coded or almost. The ads is styled straight on the div and doesn't have either id or class. The body of the page—author and user comments—has an id. I think this real content will also be the first div under the comic page when there's no ads, meaning it'd be hidden by accident on both older pages and future pages without the ads. To avoid this:Code: [Select]sssscomic.com###comic_blogcontent > div:nth-of-type(1):not([id="blog_wrapper"])
This line targets the first div which isn't "blog_wrapper" (where all content under the comic page lives), catching the ads by exclusion.
And here's an alternative targeting direct children of the content div that contain an a tag wrapping the ads image:Code: [Select]sssscomic.com###comic_blogcontent > div:has(> a > img[src="adv2_comicimages/thumbs/newcomic.jpg"])
This one should remain working if the ads div is moved to a different location in the future as long it's a direct child of "blog_wrapper".
I just want to note that the second one, while a good idea, does not appear to work. The first one is good, however.
Post by: thorny on May 07, 2021, 09:30:08 AM
But also this is one of those "endless" discussions where, like you said, everyone's going to have a slightly different belief :(
I think it's not a negative that everyone's going to have a slightly different belief about whether they're going to read, or keep reading, a particular work. I think it's fine for different people to come to different conclusions; though I do think that it should be recognized as an issue.
[ETA: Don't worry about the earlier misreading; these things happen, and I've certainly myself misread posts before.]
Post by: Songbird on May 07, 2021, 10:03:37 AM
I just want to note that the second one, while a good idea, does not appear to work. The first one is good, however.
This is strange. It worked when I tested it at first and still works now I'm retesting it. :'D The only anomaly is that sometimes the ads flashes before being hidden since the rule is likely slightly slower to process for backtracking to catch a parent container. Not kicking in at all might be a browser difference; maybe people are being served different pages based on user-agent or screen size. *shrugs*
If the other variants work then that's fine. Let's hope a future redesign doesn't break things, but if it does I don't mind people @ or PMing for help with tweaking the ads filter.
I just realized the ads is being shown in the pre-LP pages by the way (so it's a modification in the main comic page template), so that part I wrote about keeping past pages intact is invalid.
Post by: PyroDesu on May 08, 2021, 10:16:02 AM
This is strange. It worked when I tested it at first and still works now I'm retesting it. :'D The only anomaly is that sometimes the ads flashes before being hidden since the rule is likely slightly slower to process for backtracking to catch a parent container. Not kicking in at all might be a browser difference; maybe people are being served different pages based on user-agent or screen size. *shrugs*
If the other variants work then that's fine. Let's hope a future redesign doesn't break things, but if it does I don't mind people @ or PMing for help with tweaking the ads filter.
I just realized the ads is being shown in the pre-LP pages by the way (so it's a modification in the main comic page template), so that part I wrote about keeping past pages intact is invalid.
Huh. It does work now I try it again. Not sure why it didn't at first. Maybe a browser update (for reference, I am now on Firefox 88.0.1 on Linux Mint) when I finally cleared the update queue helped. I do see it flash as you described, and will probably keep the simpler version because of that, but it does work.
Post by: Aprillen on May 11, 2021, 09:52:20 AM
In semi-related news, someone offered helpful advice in the comment section of page 423. I use ABP. I clicked on ABP, selected the option for "block element" and it asked me to click on what I wanted to block. I did that for both panels below the main comic, and now they're both permanently gone.That was very helpful! Thank you!
For anyone who doesn't want to keep seeing them, considering they're not going to go away.
Post by: Rowan on May 15, 2021, 01:38:17 AM
I don't know. It's one thing for this comic to be their little proclamation of narrow-band christian-themed cult beliefs, another to blow funds promoting the comic on social media.
Especially since the whole point of Lovely People seems to be about how that exact form of targeted social media advertising is inherently evil, and leads people away from the homespun purity of paper bibles or something? Both she and her sect need more consistent messaging.
Easily blocked, but just a heads up.
Minna's hypocrisy abounds.
Post by: Kevin_Redcrow on May 15, 2021, 01:26:02 PM
...Ugh. Got my first Facebook ad for Lovely People. when I inquired why I was getting the ad, it said that the author was using targeted advertising for webcomic readers and folks over 16.
I don't know. It's one thing for this comic to be their little proclamation of narrow-band christian-themed cult beliefs, another to blow funds promoting the comic on social media.
Especially since the whole point of Lovely People seems to be about how that exact form of targeted social media advertising is inherently evil, and leads people away from the homespun purity of paper bibles or something? Both she and her sect need more consistent messaging.
Easily blocked, but just a heads up.
Minna's hypocrisy abounds.
Excellent point. When fighting monsters we must take care not to become monsters ourselves.
The one basic point I agree with but for different reasons in the bunny comic, is the intrusiveness of social media and it's abusive aspect in social relationships.
The christian far-right may see it as another tool of satan to seduce people away from the "way, the truth, and the light". I see it as capitalism run-amok, with no respect for an individual's right to privacy. It's another tool to squeeze another Currency Unit from underpaid working people. It's another shiney to distract people from the fact they are being manipulated and exploited.
The christian far-right decries information technology, and yet uses it to show the world that their church ain't afraid of no stinkin' fake Pandemic.
Post by: Grade E cat on May 16, 2021, 02:56:54 AM
(I've tried to hide it in a spoiler in case some people weren't in the mood to watch it, but everything I could think of turned the video into a link)
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Post by: ChascaKhuno on June 15, 2021, 07:02:29 PM
Originally I was planning on posting this on the SSSS comment section, but I'd rather not encounter those who call any negative comments "leftist trolls". At this point the sinking feeling in my gut is gone when I open the latest page thru my bookmarks, and while I've lost interest in SSSS, I've found myself waiting for the next bad take. It's like watching a trainwreck, and in some sick way I feel like another crash might be just what I need to justify the utterly ridiculous parasocial feeling of betrayal.
Post by: Opaque on June 15, 2021, 07:44:51 PM
But strangely enough all this has made me eager to start on my own project. Recently I've been more interested in it than SSSS. So that's good I guess.
Post by: refract3d on July 16, 2021, 02:35:12 AM
I'd stepped away from SSSS for the last year or so partly because pandemic anxiety and partly because that's just how I do webcomics a lot of the time (drop and then binge-read, especially when there's slow-to-glacial pacing) and I still followed Minna's instagram so I saw updates for the bunny comic. I did see some people commenting that it was overly Christian and that turned me off of reading it initially despite the cute art, but today I decided I could check out the SSSS site, saw the link and decided, 'what the heck, I've read classic literature, how bad can this be?' and uh
even going in knowing there were gonna be at least Christian themes it felt really heavy-handed within the story and that author's note at the end was a big turnoff for a variety of reasons others have listed.
I'm glad I came here and see other people feel the same way as me and have the same concerns regarding the future of SSSS. I'm also glad to see that many people intend to keep the community here regardless of what happens - I may be a lurker much of the time but I have fond memories here and have learned a lot from the hobbies, stories and experience shared through this forum. You've made an impression on me. (Maybe I'll try to be more active here.)
Post by: Róisín on July 16, 2021, 11:07:26 AM
Post by: anuran on August 02, 2021, 06:50:39 PM
...Ugh. Got my first Facebook ad for Lovely People. when I inquired why I was getting the ad, it said that the author was using targeted advertising for webcomic readers and folks over 16.
I don't know. It's one thing for this comic to be their little proclamation of narrow-band christian-themed cult beliefs, another to blow funds promoting the comic on social media.
Especially since the whole point of Lovely People seems to be about how that exact form of targeted social media advertising is inherently evil, and leads people away from the homespun purity of paper bibles or something? Both she and her sect need more consistent messaging.
Easily blocked, but just a heads up.
Minna's hypocrisy abounds.
Yeah, that one bothered me. The bloodiest religion in human history which wiped out all of the indigenous religions of the entire Western Hemisphere plus Europe, Australia, most of Africa, and a good chunk of Asia making up fables about how they're the Real Victims and oppressed by awful, awful society. A hundred generations of my ancestors would laugh bitterly if they didn't cry. A hundred generations who were tortured, persecuted, vilified, exiled, r**ed, and subjected to genocide at the hands of Christendom for the awful crime of keeping their ancestral faith.
Post by: Aprillen on August 02, 2021, 07:35:43 PM
Yeah, that one bothered me. The bloodiest religion in human history which wiped out all of the indigenous religions of the entire Western Hemisphere plus Europe, Australia, most of Africa, and a good chunk of Asia making up fables about how they're the Real Victims and oppressed by awful, awful society. A hundred generations of my ancestors would laugh bitterly if they didn't cry. A hundred generations who were tortured, persecuted, vilified, exiled, r**ed, and subjected to genocide at the hands of Christendom for the awful crime of keeping their ancestral faith.^^THIS
What Christendom has done to the rest of the world is at the very least spiritual colonialism, but very often in collusion with the military and economic colonialism of their Western non-ecclesiastical counterparts.
Post by: Róisín on August 03, 2021, 07:58:09 AM
Post by: GMantis on August 03, 2021, 07:04:17 PM
Yeah, that one bothered me. The bloodiest religion in human history which wiped out all of the indigenous religions of the entire Western Hemisphere plus Europe, Australia, most of Africa, and a good chunk of Asia making up fables about how they're the Real Victims and oppressed by awful, awful society. A hundred generations of my ancestors would laugh bitterly if they didn't cry. A hundred generations who were tortured, persecuted, vilified, exiled, r**ed, and subjected to genocide at the hands of Christendom for the awful crime of keeping their ancestral faith.Christianity being the bloodiest religion in human history doesn't exclude Christianity itself being persecuted, as multiple contemporary examples clearly show. In fact, there are probably fewer countries today where Christianity is imposed over other religions compared to those where Christianity is persecuted. Of course, this is not the case in Western countries, but the comic is after all meant to be a dystopia. As unlikely as it seems, Christianity can be prosecuted even where it is dominant. For an example, in 1914 no one would have imagined that the Eastern Orthodox Church would be persecuted in Russia where it dominated completely at the time. And yet this is what happened in less than a decade later.
So while one can certainly levy many charges against "Lovely people", accusing them of demeaning other religions just due to the choice of victims is unfair.
Post by: Annuil on August 04, 2021, 08:32:24 AM
Post by: ohnosir on August 06, 2021, 04:21:54 AM
I know it all seems rather compressed to me as a new reader, but catching up on SSSS and going back to read aRTD and seeing Minna's excitement for this comic and (in my eyes) her sudden drop in passion for SSSS once she discovered (in her narrow definitiion) "true Christianity" leading to LP...I've started to get worried about what if this happens to me. My own project is the most important thing to me right now. What if I get partway through it and suddenly lose interest in favor of something else? What if the themes I hold so dear suddenly pale in comparison to some newfound faith or moralistic direction? I mean I'm a pretty dyed-in-the-wool atheist but I guess Minna was too up until recently.
Do any creators (comics, art, writing or other media) worry about this too?
**I'm posting here bc the whole LP deal struck these cords in me, aside from the other disturbances over the evangelizing that have been expressed by everyone else about a thousand times! lmk if this belongs somewhere else though
Post by: moredhel on August 06, 2021, 05:18:19 AM
Post by: Keep Looking on August 06, 2021, 05:39:14 AM
I know it all seems rather compressed to me as a new reader, but catching up on SSSS and going back to read aRTD and seeing Minna's excitement for this comic and (in my eyes) her sudden drop in passion for SSSS once she discovered (in her narrow definitiion) "true Christianity" leading to LP...I've started to get worried about what if this happens to me. My own project is the most important thing to me right now. What if I get partway through it and suddenly lose interest in favor of something else? What if the themes I hold so dear suddenly pale in comparison to some newfound faith or moralistic direction? I mean I'm a pretty dyed-in-the-wool atheist but I guess Minna was too up until recently.It's definitely tricky to grapple with whether you'll be able to maintain interest in a long-term project: however, there are plenty of creators who do manage to maintain interest - I've seen several very long-form webcomics come to their completion. Just because it's happened to one creator doesn't mean it'll happen to you.
And also, like - it's actually okay to lose interest in a project. It's okay to stop things. The way it's happened with Minna is particularly tragic, because of her dramatic ideological shift and the way in which she is rushing the end of the comic, but like - sometimes you change, and sometimes you lose interest in things, and that's okay. Additionally, sometimes you have projects that you're still interested in or want to continue, but they don't have the same spark they did early-on, and that's also okay: you don't need to be consumed with passion in order to enjoy or continue a project.
I do think it also might be important (if you don't mind the advice) to make sure your project isn't at the entire centre of your life - because if you centre everything around one project, that can mean that if or when your interest starts to wane it can be hard to maintain motivation. This isn't to say you shouldn't take on important projects that you're passionate about, just that - it's important to have other things in your life, too? Minna worked for a very long time on SSSS with very few breaks, and I think that might be part of the reason why she's fallen away from interest so dramatically.
Post by: Jitter on August 06, 2021, 08:27:40 AM
Over the recent years there has been some unfortunate discussion around the issue. Particularly as concerns George R. R. Martin, who has been getting what basically amounts to hate mail from fans, for having the audacity to live his life instead of sitting in a chamber writing the books. A couple of comments on Minna's change of heart have had some echoes of the same sentiment too (not in this thread, if I recall correctly, but in some few comments elsewhere). As an avid fan of SSSS, I must admit I felt, and still do, sorry for us fans (for myself) and disappointed to learn there will be no Adventure 3. Still, we did get this much. It is a lot.
I wonder if this should go into the Academy board, as it has more to do with being an artist than LP as such? Keep what do you think?
Post by: thorny on August 06, 2021, 09:58:23 AM
Life doesn't come with guarantees. Any given long project could get dropped in the middle because the author gets hit by the proverbial truck. Or, yes, because they lose interest. That's not IMO any reason not to start one.
I'm not ticked off at Minna for losing interest -- sad, but not angry. I'm only ticked off at her for insulting her readers, and for continuing deceptiveness in how she's representing Lovely People.
Post by: Keep Looking on August 06, 2021, 10:38:50 AM
I wonder if this should go into the Academy board, as it has more to do with being an artist than LP as such? Keep what do you think?
I think it could probably remain here for now, since it is fairly short and still related/responding to LP, but if the discussion about large creative projects continues as something people are interested in discussing then we can move it to the academy. That sound good to you?
Post by: Róisín on August 06, 2021, 09:23:28 PM
Understand that I have no problem with Christians who don’t try to force or deceive others into converting to their faith - I am married to one. But I mind the disrespect.
Post by: catbirds on August 07, 2021, 12:41:47 AM
Anyway, in the end, my opinion is that it doesn't really matter if you actually finish a story, only that you're happy with how it turned out. It's more important than anything that you don't burn out on your creativity because being creative is really, really taxing... way more taxing than people give it credit for. Both physically and mentally and probably even emotionally. I agree with everything Keep and Jitter have said, it's super important that you constantly take a few steps back and get a look at the bigger picture or see what's going on in the world. Minna's upload schedule is kind of overkill compared to what most other artists post, and that could have been one of many factors that led to LP being LP. I think it could've been a combination of burnout, tunnel vision, fatigue, and a whole bunch of other things but that's just a bit of speculation.
So, yeah, don't feel discouraged or afraid because of the direction Minna's work went down, but also don't do all the things that can cause an artist's passion to fizzle out. Maybe plan a bit beforehand or work out a kinder schedule or whatever organizing works best for you.
And perhaps the most important advice is to take well-meaning feedback seriously, as a few other forumites told me when I expressed my concerns.
Also, for the religious side of this discussion, I think it's good to keep away from a condescending attitude in general. Minna wasn't just an atheist, she was a condescending atheist (according to her notes from the day after LP was released or something?), so it's really the denial of other perspectives that led this way. It's good to remember that everyone has their own struggles and that people experience faith (or a lack thereof) differently... and to know when people aren't willing to give you the same respect.
Anyway, sorry if this makes little to no sense or hope it helps! I just finished two assignments in a day, so my head's still spinning a bit.
Post by: Róisín on August 07, 2021, 10:10:02 AM
Post by: thorny on August 07, 2021, 08:09:03 PM
I think it's good to keep away from a condescending attitude in general. Minna wasn't just an atheist, she was a condescending atheist (according to her notes from the day after LP was released or something?), so it's really the denial of other perspectives that led this way.
I've noticed that phenomenon a number of times in my life: the person who is vehemently certain that a given belief, political or religious or whatever, is The Way and everyone ought to take it up, and who then drops that belief system and picks up another one -- with equal vehemence that the new one is The Way and everyone else should be doing it also.
It seems that the insistence that there is One True Way is, in some people, not dented by deciding, sometimes even repeatedly every few years, that the one they were previously certain of was wrong.
(And, of course, having that attitude, they have to decide that it was wrong entirely; not that it didn't fit them, or that it had some truth and some error mixed.)
Post by: lumilaulu on August 07, 2021, 08:18:39 PM
For an example, in 1914 no one would have imagined that the Eastern Orthodox Church would be persecuted in Russia where it dominated completely at the time. And yet this is what happened in less than a decade later.And yet ... 100 years after the Russian Revolution, 30 years after the fall of the Soviet Union, the Russian Orthodox Church is enjoying a great revival, and is on rather good terms with Putin, weighing heavily on social policy-making, in a conservative, anti-equal rights way.
Post by: Jitter on August 08, 2021, 06:57:36 AM
However, the background society in LP looks very much like an exaggerated caricature of our current Western, consumption-crazed society. Easily read as current day American. In that context, “Christians are persecuted, help me I’m being repressed” tastes stale in my mouth. Very stale.
Post by: Annuil on August 11, 2021, 07:28:36 AM
Post by: Keep Looking on August 11, 2021, 08:10:51 AM
It is rather interesting to read 51 pages of posts about how Christianity is bad and brutal and how Christians are attacking everyone, how they should not exist in this manner and also how they are supposedly not persecuted after all that. It is amazing.
I can understand how some of the things said here would be upsetting to you as a Christian - I know that I've read a few things here that have made me uncomfortable, and I suspect my views line up more closely to the majority view here than yours do. I would not agree that Christians are persecuted in western culture, but some of the more hostile views I have seen against Christianity, while coming from some understandable roots, would definitely be enough to make many Christians feel threatened.
I grew up in a devoutly Christian family (in that I'm literally a pastor's kid) and while it's not a belief system I personally follow anymore, I do deeply respect the faith of my family and many of the people I know. Christian ideology has, historically and presently, been used to justify some genuinely horrifying acts, and that is something we have to acknowledge, but in the same manner I know I've seen in my own life people who've been motivated by their Christian beliefs to love and care for others and do genuinely good things.
I think many people here are reacting to the way that Christian ideology has caused Minna to act: in a way that feels preachy and unempathetic, and also goes along with her rushing of the SSSS comic's ending when it's been a story that so many have held close to heart. Just as you might feel threatened by the things said against Christianity here, many people here have themselves felt threatened by the way that some Christians have acted towards them, and it's important to keep that in mind.
The way I see it, Christianity calls people to love their neighbours and not to be self-righteous or pass harsh judgements on others. I feel that the way that Minna has written Lovely People seems to contradict these ideas with its very heavy-handed and preachy evangelism and the neglect to accurately label the religious message of the story when promoting it, as well as some of the insensitive comments she has made, particularly about race. While I don't begrudge Minna of her faith, I cannot agree with the way she has handled Lovely People. I feel that we have to ask ourselves: when proclaiming Jesus, are Minna's characters and Minna herself acting as Jesus would? Are they showing compassion towards others, or are they acting dismissive of others' concerns? Loving your neighbour doesn't just mean preaching the gospel at them, it means being considerate and empathetic. It means going out of your way to actually care.
This does remind me to say this, though: it'd be excellent if people here could please remember not to make vastly generalised statements or claims about Christianity when criticising the way that Minna has acted or claims she has made. Christianity is a very diverse religion with a wide range of people who follow it, and a wide range of interpretations of its teachings. Additionally, it is certainly not the only religion or ideology that has been used to justify atrocities: you can find extremists in all major religions, and it's factually untrue to single out Christianity as the One Bad Religion that's caused all these Bad Things when history is far more complex than that.
Post by: Róisín on August 11, 2021, 08:52:51 AM
Post by: thorny on August 11, 2021, 10:16:00 AM
It is rather interesting to read 51 pages of posts about how Christianity is bad and brutal and how Christians are attacking everyone, how they should not exist in this manner and also how they are supposedly not persecuted after all that. It is amazing.
It's amazing to me that you can read this thread and see 51 pages of nothing but attacks on Christianity in general.
Did you not see the multiple defenses of those Christians who are not attacking others which are so frequent in the thread?
Do you yourself think that Christianity is a monolith, and that any criticism of behavior by any particular part of it should be taken as criticism -- and even as persecution -- of everyone who's a member of any other part?
Do you think that criticism of actual specified and well-attested behavior by specific groups should not be allowed?
Do you think that such criticism is the same thing as persecution? And, if so, why would that not mean that those Christian denominations which criticize others are persecuting everyone who they criticize?
Post by: Jitter on August 11, 2021, 01:19:51 PM
There are several that strongly indicate they are not merely critical of but against some varieties of Christianity, but that is not the same thing as saying it’s bad to be Christian altogether.
Just as thorny points out, criticism is not persecution. Criticism of some aspects of a thing is not the same as saying the thing is bad through and through. And finally, some people saying that Christianity is bad is not persecution. Not even if it’s many people or even the majority of people on one net forum. Persecution is the society or those in power in a society stopping a group from practicing their religion. Persecution is sending people to work camps because of an ethnic, religious, societal or other similar reason. Persecution is refusal to sell you a wedding cake, because the baker thinks your love is wrong. And countless other examples. Persecution comes in many forms, but getting asked to respect others is not persecution.
Post by: Aprillen on August 11, 2021, 02:09:31 PM
I agree with everything Keep just said. I can’t swear that I remember everything in this thread, but the way I do remember it is loads of posts expressly stating it’s not being or becoming Christian per se that ails people.
There are several that strongly indicate they are not merely critical of but against some varieties of Christianity, but that is not the same thing as saying it’s bad to be Christian altogether.
Just as thorny points out, criticism is not persecution. Criticism of some aspects of a thing is not the same as saying the thing is bad through and through. And finally, some people saying that Christianity is bad is not persecution. Not even if it’s many people or even the majority of people on one net forum. Persecution is the society or those in power in a society stopping a group from practicing their religion. Persecution is sending people to work camps because of an ethnic, religious, societal or other similar reason. Persecution is refusal to sell you a wedding cake, because the baker thinks your love is wrong. And countless other examples. Persecution comes in many forms, but getting asked to respect others is not persecution.
THIS
Post by: ohnosir on August 12, 2021, 01:58:36 AM
I do wanna say, I actually don't think that Minna is "rushing" SSSS in the same way I've seen some other comic endings rushed. I can definitely tell that she has lost interest in favour of her new passions, and I'm actually impressed by the quality of her pages every week, not to mention the fact that she hasn't cut back on the schedule at all. Have I noticed where the art quality has dropped? Sure - but not as many times as I've noticed how high the quality STILL is despite the fact that she's dreaming of other projects. I suppose as much as it triggers my worries, I should be hopeful about the fact that she's still trucking on!
I also don't mean to diminish y'all's reactions against the unnecessarily heavy-handed Christian evangelical view...I just really grew up in the bible belt going to Baptist school so I'm a little...inundated. And even though I'm not a Christian, I'm sad to see the *actual teachings of Jesus Christ that I read in the Bible* of TOLERANCE being taken as attacks against Christianity. If y'all think Jesus would be standing on the streetcorner telling people they'll go to hell instead of hanging out at the gay club, demonstrating everyday kindness...idk what book you were reading
Post by: Jitter on August 20, 2021, 11:45:53 AM
Now the comments are closed. I want to think it’s a mistake, but I’m not sure I can. But she wouldn’t, would she? Has anyone been to the stream lately or otherwise heard from her?
Post by: Yuuago on August 20, 2021, 12:41:25 PM
I don’t remember what the length for comment pages staying open is, though. Can anyone else clarify on this?
Post by: Jitter on August 20, 2021, 01:19:50 PM
Post by: JoB on August 20, 2021, 04:06:27 PM
I don’t remember what the length for comment pages staying open is, though. Can anyone else clarify on this?It has varied over time as well as for individual pages. Minna occasionally has raised the timeout for "last page for a while / the chapter break", but is no stranger to forgetting such precautions, either. Autoclosing after a week sounds OK-ish for the four-pages-coming-per-week default setting ...
Post by: thegreyarea on August 22, 2021, 04:26:33 PM
Now the comments are closed. I want to think it’s a mistake, but I’m not sure I can. But she wouldn’t, would she? Has anyone been to the stream lately or otherwise heard from her?I also want to think those are unrelated. I believe Minna usually doesn't even reads the comments after the few initial ones. But someone might, and told her. Even then we have occasionaly seem many comments that were far more critic and she didn't close the page.
She probably just thought it have been open long enough. (yes, I always try to believe in people's good side...)
Post by: Moose on January 18, 2022, 02:36:46 PM
Welcome, @Moose! You made a good analysis of the situation, in my opinion. A lot of us here strongly agree with you. I'm really sorry that SSSS treats your culture like it does. Thank you for mentioning the Saami troll-hunting stories, they sound fun. I'd love to read them if possible.Thank you! And sorry (everyone) for a veery late answer! All this may have already had its course but i truly feel the need to answer all the nice coments ^-^
Yes, the sámi troll stories are awsome, and a lot more gory sometimes then ssss! I hope you get to read some sometime ;D
Post by: Moose on January 18, 2022, 02:50:40 PM
Moose, it is a big deal. Sure, some people will brush it off but most of the people here won't. We like to listen and understand peoples feelings. Your concerns won't be brushed off as overanalyzing. Frankly, a lot of indigenous people would survive a troll infested world. They're really strong and wouldn't be pushovers when it comes to survival. These people try so hard to keep their culture and language alive despite others trying to force conformity. Instead of melting into the rest of the population shouldn't the difference between cultures be celebrated? But for some reason that's too much to ask.Thank you for youre kind words! Its nice to hear understanding people. I have lurced a bit around this forum now for a bit and im suppriced to find that the times sámi people are mentioned it is in positive meanings, it is, unfortunately, a bit rare.
Culture, language, religion are all beautiful.
The differences between them are beautiful.
Everyone getting a shot at killing a troll is beautiful.
Saying things like "melt into the culture " is not beautiful. If only people knew how many illnesses were brought to other countries by white foreigners.
I totaly agree, cultures that have survived tryes at erasure would not just "melt in" and disapare.
Its all the differenses that make us all beautiful! No one more or less, but beautiful and valid.
Post by: Moose on January 18, 2022, 03:11:23 PM
Moose, it is a big deal. Sure, some people will brush it off but most of the people here won't. We like to listen and understand peoples feelings. Your concerns won't be brushed off as overanalyzing. Frankly, a lot of indigenous people would survive a troll infested world. They're really strong and wouldn't be pushovers when it comes to survival. These people try so hard to keep their culture and language alive despite others trying to force conformity. Instead of melting into the rest of the population shouldn't the difference between cultures be celebrated? But for some reason that's too much to ask.Thank you! Its realy nice to find a place with compassion and understanding. I have lurced a bit around this forum and found that the times sámi people been brought up its been in posetive meaning, it is rare to find im sad to say.
Culture, language, religion are all beautiful.
The differences between them are beautiful.
Everyone getting a shot at killing a troll is beautiful.
Saying things like "melt into the culture " is not beautiful. If only people knew how many illnesses were brought to other countries by white foreigners.
And yes, i totaly agree, people and cultures that have stood against genocide, erasure, opression etc would not just melt in with the main culture, we would still be recilient, even against trolls.
Post by: Moose on January 18, 2022, 03:18:54 PM
Can I just say that I think this one should win the Typo of the Year award?Haha well i have to agree! It was truly a typo that domt seem so mutch as a typo ;D
Not as a criticism of your English, which is entirely understandable (and massively better than my any-other-language); but because justifiable fear does indeed have a great deal to do with it.
Post by: Moose on January 18, 2022, 03:30:08 PM
first of all, it's great to hear the perspective of and analysis from a saami person. thank you so much for speaking up. saami people deserve better, and not just in media.Thank you!
Its refreshing to find a place on the internet so understanding.
Post by: Moose on January 18, 2022, 04:13:15 PM
Yes! Just my thougt to! The midnightsun, the deep snow and freezing dergees, bare montains and woods to hide in. In my mind the sámi is still alive. Maybe unawere of other people or no interest in finding other survivors.
Yea no, we was left out on purpose, and not with good intentions. She had so many options to be inclusive without appropriate.
Im sorry to hear that. Its not okej.
It seems like a great corner on the wide webb. It refreshing to not be met with racism.
Ouf, i hope an opposit forum to this dont exist!
Post by: Moose on January 18, 2022, 04:23:08 PM
As a side note, I think the only piece of media that I've seen represent Saami people (at all...) has been that Christmas movie on Netflix from a few years ago (Klaus??), but it did seem to be a positive representation so that's something. At least, I thought it was a cute part of the movie.
And about the fat jokes in aRTD, they did make me uncomfortable, as well as the one instance of Hannu using the R slur (I think?). It might have been overlooked at the time of its publishing because aRTD is a pretty old webcomic at this point, and boy was that sort of thing everywhere on the internet back then :(
There are some sami represantation in mainstream media but most is, not good.
I love Klaus and it has a lot of good represantation but its not perfect, it falls in to that "sámi is santas elfs" trope.
If you want some indigenous films (sámi and from other indigenous cultures) Sapmifilm.com have a lot.
No i think you right, the r-word is used.
Post by: Jitter on January 18, 2022, 04:51:50 PM
@Jitter i think not including sámi was in one way the best desition, but how she went about it was a bit offensiv. Not long ago sámi was beaten for speaking any sámi languadge, a lot of sámi struggle to get it back. Marking it as a dead languadge, not good. (and its not one languadge, its like nine living) and then with the assimilation o_O
Yes! Just my thougt to! The midnightsun, the deep snow and freezing dergees, bare montains and woods to hide in. In my mind the sámi is still alive. Maybe unawere of other people or no interest in finding other survivors.
Yea no, we was left out on purpose, and not with good intentions. She had so many options to be inclusive without appropriate.
Im sorry to hear that. Its not okej.
It seems like a great corner on the wide webb. It refreshing to not be met with racism.
Ouf, i hope an opposit forum to this dont exist!
Moose, I agree! It would have been decent of her to acknowledge that the Saami exist still, even if she didn’t feel comfortable having a Saami character. But small things like including a couple of villages in the very north (with names in Sami language(s)) and keeping their branch alive in the language tree would have been minimal effort. Given everything that has been said and done since the map and the language tree, I have to agree with you that it was not a well-intentioned accident. This is especially pronounced as the Sami would be more likely to survive in this scenario than the other Nordic peoples.
Still, I think it would have been even worse if she had included some nasty stereotype thing. I’m sorry to say but I don’t think she would have been likely to make it a good representation.
Post by: Grade E cat on January 19, 2022, 12:25:02 PM
(Not specifically meant to apply to Minna, just a little tip for communicating with people who might be in somewhat of a grey area on the subject by someone who considers herself in one)
Post by: deadrose on February 06, 2022, 05:15:04 PM
If you want some indigenous films (sámi and from other indigenous cultures) Sapmifilm.com have a lot.
*sigh* I wish they allowed subscriptions from non-Nordic regions. My DNA shows a fair amount of Sámi ancestry, but trying to learn much beyond "Look at these pictures of reindeer herders" isn't easy.
Post by: spegeljord on March 29, 2022, 10:36:31 AM
Like many, LP left me with a deep sense of betrayal and loss. I’ve never met Minna, but I still found myself grieving* for her, or really, I grieved the loss of the person I thought she was. And I grieved for her future, which will likely take place in a bigoted echo chamber. Her beautiful art will probably be confined to a very narrow audience.
Minna hurt a lot of people with LP, but to me, it seems like the person she hurt most is herself. She’s driven off a good chunk of her audience, and will she really be able to live off Christian comics with no add revenue? She may have hampered her ability to make friends and connect with people irl, too – people are going to find LP when they google her name. Hell, even LP itself is so badly executed that it damages/defeats its own purpose. Minna’s said that her talents are a gift from God and that she intends to use them to share her religion, but you don’t win converts by punching people in the throat.
Since March of 2021, I’ve probably read LP a dozen times, just studying the details and emotionally processing everything. During those re-readings, I found a new kind of grief, grief for what might have been. Because (unpopular opinion here) LP could’ve been a fantastic comic. Make some changes to the writing and plot, add infinitely more sensitivity and tact, and Minna might’ve created something that christian and non-christians could genuinely enjoy. It might even provided a nudge to someone sitting on the fence and considering chrisitanity.
So, because I have no life and my time has no value, I wrote out all the changes I would’ve made if I were LP’s author and/or editor. The resulting story might not be great, but I’m certain it’s better than the existing one. They say you can’t polish a turd, but that’s because turds aren’t meant for polishing. If life hands you a turd, you might as well use it as fertilizer and grow some flowers, y’know?
Details under spoilers because this is gonna be loooooog.
*Probably too strong of a word, but I can’t think of a better one.
Proposed edits
Give Marigold’s husband some personality
This seems small, but it bothered me an inordinate amount. I genuinely have no idea what Minna was going for when she wrote Marigold’s husband. He seems completely checked out and emotionally detached. It’s also strange that he seems to know NOTHING about christianity prior to reading the bible on the train. Most deeply religious people (that I’ve met) prefer a spouse who shares their faith, or at least understands the basics or it. And I know many people (my parents included) that make religion an important part of their relationship.
Give Marigold a church
Seriously, I found it so strange that the main christian character in a christian comic doesn’t seem to be affiliated with any kind of church. And it’s not implied that the WC closed all the churches, either. They had one WC-approved christian appear on a talk show and allowed her to talk about how she approved of the Bible 2.0 update, so there’s probably some state-allowed churches around somewhere, but they’re never mentioned or alluded to.
A church could do so much for plot and character development. Marigold and her husband could be active in the community, and Cinnamon could be one of their church friends. I’d also like to see Lavender (Peppermint’s daughter) as a member, going to services with her “aunt.” Lavender could be a convert, one of those people who are raised in secular families but join religion for their own spiritual satisfaction. Minna converted as an adult, so she should be able to write that kind of character well.
A church could show WHY religion is so important to these bunnies. We could see them going to services, with doughnuts in the basement afterwards, spending time as a community. Maybe someone talks about how their faith helped them through hard times. Maybe the congregation volunteers for a food pantry or clothing drive. This could provide a way to Lavender to meet the homeless bunny and get to know her backstory.
Have the WC push "acceptable christianity" that relies on prosperity gospel
Many other commenters have pointed out (correctly) that Christians are not being systematically persecuted in any modern western countries. With that being said, the WC isn’t shown to want to get rid of all Chrisitans – it just wants all christains to follow a doctrine they approve of. The WC could’ve deleted the bibles from everyone’s tablets, but they didn’t. They updated it instead.
The idea of losing points for reading the original un-updated bible isn’t particularly realistic or relatable, but many totalitarian regimes have manipulated doctrine for political purposes. And there is one aspect of christianty* that I think the WC love to push on its citizens: prosperity gospel. Prosperity gospel is the belief that if you’re a good christian, god will bless you with wealth and material comfort. Prosperity gospel is intimately tied up with the just world fallacy (ie, the belief that bad things mostly/only happen to bad people who did something to deserve it.)
The WC explicits endorses the just world fallacy. Peppermint (speaking as a teacher and therefore an instrument of the state) says that bunnies have to be deliberately bad to wreck their scores. She later tells Lavender that the homeless bunny could have all her rights back if she would just behave. This narrative leaves no room for systematic inequalities, bad luck, or accidents and I think it’s pretty safe to say that the just world fallacy is a large part of the WC’s manner of operation.
*Not all christian groups accept the prosperity gospel, but it’s common enough to be lumped in as broadly christian.
The church runs afoul of the WC’s “just world”
I think that Marigold’s faith and church could believably run afoul of the WC. Not because of Christianity in and of itself, but because Christianity could lead the bunnies to doubt/question the WC. If the church is helping the poor, they’d probably get to know some bunnies that have been un-person’d and learn their backstories. Those backstories probably involve persecution and discimination, and that the un-people did not bring their fate upon themselves. If that’s true, then the world is not just, and that’s directly contradictory to the official WC party line and therefore must be suppressed.
There are lots of different ways the WC could crack down on the church. Maybe the pastor suddenly disappears and is related with a state-endorsed newcomer. Suddenly, the sermons aren’t about forgiveness and loving your neighbor, they’re about how wealth means you’re specially chosen by god, unlike the sinful poor. Or maybe the WC tries to shut down the church’s charitable work, saying that giving things to the “undeserving” is wrong and probably bad for the economy. There’s lots of possibilities.
After the WC gets involved with the church, I can imagine Cinnamon and her family becoming dissatisfied and planning to run away. Marigold is probably too anxious to join, but Cinnamon could give her the map.
Peppermint’s character arc and escape from propaganda
In the beginning of the comic, Peppermint is shown to be deep in the just world kool-aid. Her sincere belief in the just world is probably an important part of her morals and almost certainly essential for her job security. Granted, she does ditch her faith in the WC after Lavender tanks her score, but it happens too quickly to be believable.
Instead, Peppermint could change her views in a much longer (and more conflicted) timeframe. Peppermint is a good citizen, but Lavender’s been going to Marigold’s church and seeing and experiencing things that suggest the world is not so just. Maybe Lavender talks about the un-people she’s met. Maybe Peppermint doesn’t believe that such things really happen, maybe she wants Lavender to stop helping the un-people for the sake of Lavender’s newly minted account. Either way, there’s lots of room for mother-daughter tension and character development.
While this is going on, Peppermint could learn that Sunspot’s family has a low score. She meets the parents, expecting them to be bad people, but is surprised at how “good” and “relatable” they seem. Ideally, Sunspot’s parents would be considered social undesirables for a reason not related to christianity, because it doesn’t make sense for christians to be the only group that’s targeted by the WC.
Marigold and Lavender tank their scores
As LP stands, neither score tanking makes a lot of sense. Marigold’s husband apparently starts reading the bible and wrecks his score without any consideration of the consequences in his day-to-day life. (Nor does he tell Marigold that he’s going to do something so score-wrecking, which strikes me as a serious communication issue) Lavender never provides much motivation for why she hates the world council, nor does she ever consider undermining them in any way other than bashing them online. It’s illogical and incredibly alienating for the reader. If a character loses their life savings to a ponzi scheme because they didn’t know better, the reader might feel sorry for them. If a character takes their life’s savings to the middle of a field, soaks it in gasoline, and sets it on fire, the reader’s just going to think they’re a moron.
Obviously, there are endless plot-related possibilities for how Marigold and Lavender could tank their scores, but my personal preference would be this: Marigold and Lavender are texting each other about the crackdown at church and it turns into criticizing the WC. This makes sense because it’s implied that (or the bunnies think that) scores are only affected by things that are posted publicly, not private conversations. (For example, in the first scene, Peony admits to “pretending to believe” what she writes in order to get more points. She says this in a crowded restaurant, without any apparent fear of being overheard.) Anyway, despite the belief that the conversation is private, the WC is monitoring the phones of these possibly-subversive charity-working churchgoes and uses that as an excuse to make them unpeople.
Peony and the role of the socially privileged
I’ve seen a couple people with the opinion that Peony is a superfluous character who could be cut from LP with any major impact on the plot. And while I certainly see where they’re coming from, I actually really like Peony. Her character illustrates an important point; in a totalitarian regime, some people will be privileged, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the privileged people are evil.
Privilege is usually (and rightfully) thought of in terms of demographics – a person’s race, sex, sexual ortientation, etc. But an individual’s natural personality can also provide them with a degree of (dis)privilege. Someone who is naturally excitable and prefers to wear their heart on their sleeve might struggle in a culture that values endurance and stoicism, y’know?
Peony is an excellent example of personality-based privilege. She manages to be exactly what the WC wants, without even trying. She’s extroverted and charismatic, with a flair for showmanship. She’s ambitious – building a brand as an influencer can be akin to starting a small business. When she sets the goal of reaching gold-verified status, she pursues it wholeheartedly. Her interest in makeup art aligns with WC’s ideas about gender.
At the same time , Peony’s privilege never quite pushes her into selfishness. She’s eager to invite her friends to the super-VIP section and takes pride in the fact that her score will improve theirs. When she unfriends Marigold and Peppermint (an arguably logical move in terms of self-preservation) she does so with more sadness than self-righteousness.
Furthermore, privilege means that Peony has the least to gain and the most to lose. She’s the only main character whose hand the WC never really forces (at least until she rants about them online.) She hasn’t seen her religion disrupted or her daughter punished; she would’ve been perfectly free to move on from Peppermint and Marigold and continue with all the benefits of gold-verified super-VIP. But that’s not what she does. She walks away from everything (and no doubt taking a serious hit in terms of material prosperity) because she knows it’s the right thing to do. That’s the main moral of Peony’s arc. People should stand up against oppression and injustice, even if that oppression and injustice benefit them personally.
Plot Climax and Bible Scenes
If asked to point out LP’s plot climax, I’m not sure what I’d say, because there are several contenders. One of them is the moment when Marigold and her husband talk about Matthew 26 (Peter denying that he knows Jesus.) Now, I personally think that a bible cutscene is distracting and unnecessary, even in a christian comic, but if there really needed to be a bible story, here’s how I would do it:
After Peony wrecks her score, she runs to meet the others and begs for their forgiveness. Marigold says that she forgives Peony, and that she’s just glad that Peony made the right choice. Then cut to a scene of the bunnies walking away from society, and as they do, Marigold remembers Matthew 9:10-13 and takes comfort in it.
As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him. While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?" On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.
In other words, Matthew, who was privileged and benefited from Roman corruption, realized couldn't continue living the way he was. Jesus forgave him and welcomed him as a disciple. This story would tie right into the rejection of materialism and the prosperity gospel. IT encourages the reader to notice what’s going on around them, reflect on their own sins (whatever they may be) and focus on doing better in the future. I think that would be a fitting way to conclude the comic.
..
So there you have it, my proposed “edits” to the comic that hardly anybody read and even fewer people liked. As I said previously, LP could’ve been a decent story, even a good one, and I’m mostly sad that it fails the way it does.
Post by: Jitter on March 29, 2022, 03:46:14 PM
You make some interesting points. I agree with many of them. The one edit I would love to make would be to change the Bible 2.0 modification that is particularly talked about to the scene where Jesus drives the merchants out of the temple. It would be something the extremely consumerist regime would hate, and it would be soooo much less intolerant towards basically everyone (except such merchants who push their goods in temples).
I would like to point out that the lack of a church in the story probably reflects Minna's experience. I don't know what happened when she converted, and how, but she didn't have a church at first. She was already firmly converted and had been doing her bible (self)study for a long while before she ever attended a service and later mentioned that she has found a church that suits her. She is clearly not a people person, so the community aspect of having a church seemed to be difficult for her at first (these are things she has spoken about during the Twitch streams, not word to word but directly from her). In this respect I think and hope it will be a good influence on her. The Finnish mainstream lutheranism is very boring, but the congregation she joined is baptist, which is a tiny denomination here. But in her case the conversion came first and led her to finding a group.
I had a point somewhere but I seem to have lost it. So, I'll stop here now :)
Post by: Róisín on March 30, 2022, 01:16:23 AM
Post by: Kevin_Redcrow on April 02, 2022, 08:20:15 PM
Hello spegeljord!
You make some interesting points. I agree with many of them. The one edit I would love to make would be to change the Bible 2.0 modification that is particularly talked about to the scene where Jesus drives the merchants out of the temple. It would be something the extremely consumerist regime would hate, and it would be soooo much less intolerant towards basically everyone (except such merchants who push their goods in temples).
I would like to point out that the lack of a church in the story probably reflects Minna's experience. I don't know what happened when she converted, and how, but she didn't have a church at first. She was already firmly converted and had been doing her bible (self)study for a long while before she ever attended a service and later mentioned that she has found a church that suits her. She is clearly not a people person, so the community aspect of having a church seemed to be difficult for her at first (these are things she has spoken about during the Twitch streams, not word to word but directly from her). In this respect I think and hope it will be a good influence on her. The Finnish mainstream lutheranism is very boring, but the congregation she joined is baptist, which is a tiny denomination here. But in her case the conversion came first and led her to finding a group.
I had a point somewhere but I seem to have lost it. So, I'll stop here now :)
One part of SSSS I enjoyed very much was when Reynir and Onni encountered Pastor Anne. I thought she was one of Ms. Sundberg's better constructed characters. Pastor Anne had that whole vibe of being an empathetic, non-judgemental person; such as I've seen in many of the more moderate christian churches I've encountered. She, I think, behaved and spoke in the manner of someone like her if the circumstances were real, not merely a story premise.
This was one of the reasons I had a hard time with the original footnote of LP. It did not square with what I had read in SSSS mere months prior to that.
The metaphysical content of SSSS as a whole really appealed to me. It shows a world that is multi-pantheon.
There is Pastor Anne, representing a positive version of christianity. Reynir was exploring his spiritual heritage. Onni and Lalli were actively practicing theirs. Sigrun at the very least was paying lip-service to hers. Mikkel seemed to be a Danish Zen student of sorts. And last there is Emil, the natural-born Epicurean. ;)
My error was assuming that the artist's viewpoints somehow reflected this. I know now that the artist had once declared herself to be atheist, then turns around and becomes a christian hard-liner.
Given the rough timing of her conversion (Spring of 2020?) perhaps the Real World Covid Pandemic was a factor. At that time, I believed that it was within the realm of possibility that the disease could have taken so many that we would have to pile corpses on street corners.
Maybe her own fears led her to take Pascal's Wager, figuring that the worst that could happen is that there is no afterlife to worry about. Also, her not being a people person, and being largely reclusive, could have left her vulnerable to any strong-willed influence. Combine those, and you've got a convert.
This is all pure conjecture, based on what little I've heard about Ms. Sundberg.
Side note: I watched one of her sketchbook streams from like 2015? What I find remarkable, is that for a supposed recluse, her command of English and it's modern pop-vernacular is astounding!
Anyway, the mysteries of her conversion may be cleared up in the next Bunny Comic. I intend to follow the comments, rather than read it myself. I'm not going to read it because it's probably going to contain the "Why Do the Heathen Rage?" sentiment.
Post by: translunaryAnimus (TA) on April 04, 2022, 08:48:27 AM
Instead we got.. Christian persecution complex..
Minna is a better story writer than this and I can't help but feel wholly disappointed with the way that Lovely People turned out. It could have been an interesting discussion on her opinions of social credit systems and the censoring of beliefs (which would be hard to navigate given that it's a pretty inflamatory topic and would probably cause a lot of arguments if done insensitively) but we got.. what we got instead.
I won't go too much into thoughts as an ex Christian, so I'm not showing too much bias, but it's a little scary to have something that you hear constantly from your very intolerant/bigoted family be repeated blindly by a comic author you've looked up to for years. Minna inspired a lot of my own work and style and I honestly just feel lost now.
Post by: thorny on April 04, 2022, 11:42:11 AM
I expected the social credit system to begin banning more and more religions as "dangerous ideas" while getting tangled up with itself and the people who run it as their own religious beliefs were being targeted.
Now that would have been worth reading.
As you say: tricky to do well; but would have been worth the attempt, even if results were imperfect.
And it occurs to me, reading that: we never saw the people implementing the system, did we? They, their motives, their intentions in instituting the system and in changing it further to start interfering with religious texts -- that's all a black box. Just a black box with Something Bad in it.
Post by: translunaryAnimus (TA) on April 22, 2022, 08:27:22 AM
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we never saw the people implementing the system, did we?
Nope! Just the newscasters reporting the new changes to the system.
It's unfortunate how it turned out but I'm still holding out hope that future Christian based projects of hers end up better than LP. We'll have to see i suppose.
Post by: Róisín on April 22, 2022, 10:42:55 PM
Having myself raised a brilliant but unworldly child whose genius far outstripped his age, I think that what saved him was having a bunch of older siblings who looked out for him until he could interact safely with the world without being used or exploited, and being part of a family and social group that was vastly diverse in terms of race, religion, lifestyle, jobs and interests. He was never really exposed to the concept of a ‘one true way for everyone’ except as something he read about at school. His growing up was still hard, because being a genius interacting with a duller world is always hard, and his chronic severe medical challenges made everything harder, but he has achieved a measure of happiness and a life that still has space for other people and other ways of looking at the world, and his own family has turned out well.
I can only hope for the same for Minna, and that she can make a good and useful life and be happy. But I think we need to cut her some slack because both she and her genius are still maturing. Good luck to her.
Post by: wavewright62 on April 23, 2022, 08:02:17 PM
Offhand, I don't think Minna particularly subscribes to the prosperity gospel model. She's been quite cheerful when acknowledging that she has alienated (and fully expects to continue alienating) the audience that has kept her among the few who can make a comfortable living as a working artist. (Granted her economic needs are few as her lifestyle is pretty basic.) She is ready to move on.
Post by: dreki on October 05, 2022, 04:19:00 AM
In her stream tonight, Minna says she's actually read the Bible (over the course of three months) so she's not making up her beliefs but I've also seen some Christians says that the bible isn't against self improvement...
Unfortunately I can't say one way or the other because I'm not Christian in any form (unless you count Christmas and singing songs about the Lord in Primary school assemblies)
But also she's got a study bible she plans to read so maybe her views will change? She claims to be a "recent convert and very pumped up"
I know this is a really old post but this is something I think is really important -
The bible was written in three different languages, and two thousand years ago. Read something from Old English written a thousand years ago - it's nigh incomprehensible to a modern English speaker.
To be able to truly read the bible - you have to study, to fluency, three separate languages. Then you have to study the historical context to understand what those words actually meant.
It is a dedication of a lifetime. Not something you can do in three months.
There's pretty few people in this world who can honestly say they've read the bible.
If you're reading a translation then you are reading another person's biases. End of story. It is not the word of god, it's the translation by a human of their understanding of the word of god.
The line about fitting a camel in the eye of the needle is probably one of the more amusing ones - a more accurate translation was probably twine. Rope vs camel. Look how MASSIVE a difference that is - one word.
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Now in Greek, the primary language of the Gospel, the word for camel is (depending on how it’s transliterated) kamilon. But Burgess argued (and he is one of many who have) that since the word for rope, kamiilon, is essentially a homophone, the passage actually makes more sense if Jesus is telling his fisherman followers, in whose former trade cords and nets played such a prominent role, to imagine trying to thread a thick, nautical rope through a needle’s eye. - https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2010/01/04/camel-or-rope/
It doesn't actually change that passage very much but it should be a sobering awareness of how volatile translation can be that the words "camel" and "thick rope" can be mixed up!
The chunks on homosexuality are probably the ones most people know about the disagreement on. If you look, the word referred to child molesters and someone changed it to homosexuality in the 1940s. https://um-insight.net/perspectives/has-%E2%80%9Chomosexual%E2%80%9D-always-been-in-the-bible/
I've also seen a scholar claim that the part about Eve being punished with pain in childbirth - the word "pain" was more akin to work/toil and is the same one that's used to refer to needing to work the soil/farm.
Which many farmers would tell you is hard work but highly rewarding, and not needless agony the way people interprate "pain in childbirth".
The idea that you have to suffer in childbirth has had a massive impact on our cultural idea of what birth looks like.
Unless someone can prove their proficiency in Ancient Greek, Biblical Hebrew, and Biblical Arameic - take anything they have to say about "what the bible says" with a massive grain of salt.
And even if they can prove that proficiency - remember that ultimately they're a fallable human with their own biases and background which will impact how they interpret things.
Post by: Róisín on October 06, 2022, 08:47:50 AM
I do know several bible scholars, one of whom pointed out to me another bit of weird translation: the Greek ‘venifice’ being translated as ‘witch’, as in ‘thou shalt not suffer a witch to live’. But what the word actually means is ‘poisoner’. That translation always puzzled Wiccans.
Post by: Jitter on October 06, 2022, 11:07:02 AM
Post by: dreki on October 09, 2022, 06:59:55 AM
It also is really disturbing when christians insist if we don't know what god said what's stopping people from XYZ.
Seriously? The only thing stopping you from murdering people and attacking children is the bible? Not, I don't know, basic levels of human decency? O_o
Hmm, in Finnish that bit is, or at least used to be in the previous translation “do not let a witch WOMAN” live… thank you patriarchy
In modern English, witch is almost exclusively female. The witch trials mostly focused on women, too. I'm not sure exactly when, but for centuries "witch" has been an accusation against any woman who is too uppity/independent/intelligent/confident.
Right now, like within the last decade, there's been a slight increase of using witch to refer to men - but that's because witchcraft is a feminist heavy subject so gender equality is a big deal to modern witches.
So there's definitely the implications of patriarchy in the English version as well.
Post by: Jitter on October 09, 2022, 07:39:06 AM
Incidentally the witch hunts in Finland claimed more male victims than females.
The “witch woman”, noitanainen translation is in the 1992 version, which is the current official and newest full version. In the previous translation from the 1930’s the word is “velhonainen”, “wizard woman”. Even before Harry Potter that would have been a bit confusing as we were already moving to “men are wizards and women are witches” usage but an entire generation reading a series of books repeating this over and over definitely established it firmly (which incidentally in light of later events suddenly tastes even worse in my mouth than it previously did).
Which leads us back to the previous discussion - Róisín, is the Greek word gendered? Are we to put to death all poisoners or just female (or male) ones?
Post by: Róisín on October 09, 2022, 12:29:45 PM
Modern witches/wiccans here in Australia use the word ‘witch’ in non-gendered ways. The senior witch around here is a bloke, but his wife is also just a witch.
Post by: greentea on October 09, 2022, 05:18:49 PM
Like many others I went into it when it first came out expecting something pretty different, or not knowing what I expected honestly and was smacked upside the head with the result. It hit me really hard since I was going through (and still am) a religious or spiritual crisis, as I was raised non-religious and during the pandemic isolation it started to weigh on me that I felt I was missing something. I was never increadibly interested in Christianity, but LP turned me away from it entirely. It just left me feeling increadibly hurt in a very personal way.
I generally agree with the sentiments already posted here so I don't have much left to say, its just been weighing on my mind and I thought I'd put it out there.
Ive been a lurker for years on the comic and forum and this is my first post! Its been wonderful to read all of your discussions for all this time!
Post by: thorny on October 09, 2022, 08:03:28 PM
And -- yeah. I don't think the heavy-handed people understand that attempting to convert people by attacking them is likely to backfire.
Post by: moredhel on October 10, 2022, 12:33:33 AM
Hmm, in Finnish that bit is, or at least used to be in the previous translation “do not let a witch WOMAN” live… thank you patriarchyIn German they translate it to "Zauberin" strangely not our word for witch it is the female version of the german word for wizard. In the weird way german works as a language you could argue it implies male wizards would be ok.
Post by: Yastreb on October 10, 2022, 03:16:01 AM
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I do know several bible scholars, one of whom pointed out to me another bit of weird translation: the Greek ‘venifice’ being translated as ‘witch’, as in ‘thou shalt not suffer a witch to live’. But what the word actually means is ‘poisoner’.
I once had the opportunity to test a street-level evangelist with that fact. The conversation went along these lines (sorta).
Her response was something akin to "Witches poison people's minds!"
"So what do you call someone who puts arsenic in the coffee?" I riposted.
I don't recall her exact answer, but whatever it was, it didn't make much sense.
Post by: Jitter on October 10, 2022, 04:51:09 AM
Post by: dreki on October 18, 2022, 01:59:59 PM
Imagine the repercussions if Christianity set out from the beginnings of the church to take a very strict stance on poisoners - and included poisoning of the air, earth, etc as well as substances that cause disease into it (starting from when the harm was first discovered), not just personally poisoning one person. We might have a different world.
I wouldn't bet on it. >:( Jesus is REALLY clear on the whole "don't hoard wealth, support the poor, judge not" and yet look at the world we're in.
Christianity is what I'm most familiar with so I won't say no one else does it, but too many christians are *really* adept at either twisting the bible beyond all recognition to justify their desires, or just flat out ignoring it.
Post by: Jitter on October 18, 2022, 02:32:51 PM
Post by: Róisín on October 18, 2022, 03:38:03 PM
Post by: Yastreb on October 18, 2022, 06:31:10 PM
Post by: Róisín on October 18, 2022, 10:15:13 PM
Post by: Turnstylus on October 25, 2022, 06:22:48 PM
“The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried.”
I feel silly saying it this way, but: if a thing is difficult to do, there will be those people who are not going to succeed at it! And so no one here in the forum is surprised when a person aspires to an ideal with their speech, then fails with their actions. Some things are really hard to accomplish.
But I think what Chesterton is pointing out is that there are people who recognize the "difficult thing" right away, and they're honest enough with themselves to say "That ideal is not for me, why set myself up to fail?"
But when a person pretends to have achieved some state of rightness without actually being "good" (whatever that may mean for you), that is when we get angry, because it looks dishonest. That person is claiming the ideal without doing it, right? Those people are out there, to be sure. In our case, I don't know Minna well enough to call her one of those.
Does anybody here remember the movie The Matrix? A character named Morpheus says to the protagonist, a guy named Neo, the following: "There's a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path."
It's a great quote, but I bring it up to show a different idea than what was in the movie. Morpheus was teaching Neo that you can fulfill your destiny without even believing what that destiny is, or daring to hope for it. I hope so! But I quote it here because Christians must have the opposite situation: they know their ideal, but it's a struggle to follow it.
So when I meet a Christian who has a high tolerance for mistakes, I figure they have a clearer view of the whole picture. Because whatever you believe, none of us are going to make it for long unless we can be gracious to each other.
Post by: Lenny on October 26, 2022, 05:33:32 AM
Again, disclaimer, I'm writing this from the lens of "grew up as child of Christian minister and academic, who got traumatised by church as a whole". I haven't gotten to the "able to find genuine human interaction and care in religion" part of recovery yet, and might not ever. Even the kindest care always came with strings attached.
I dunno. Someone claiming to have achieved a state of enlightenment while not being honest with themselves is just someone I can avoid, that's alright. Other people are free to avoid their own faults if it's too much for them. It's when they hit everyone else over the head with sticks or start going "If someone else hasn't achieved this in the exact same way I have, they are not valid" where it starts getting very... icky. Hypocritical. Lovely People, for one, reads as someone's frustration with Twitter, as told by someone who mainly gets human interaction via Twitter, with cookie cutter Christian moral persecution story pasted over the top, that, well, does the hitting with sticks. And it all feels horribly fake because it's obviously frustration with Twitter Discourse and justification of personal anxieties that uses Christianity to justify the Hitting With The Sticks. And, this is key, it feels normal as a "Christian story" because that's what people use Christianity for, and have done for centuries.
Note that what I'm describing above is completely different from someone who wants to covert others because they genuinely care about them.
More personally, I don't know of a single Christian denomination that doesn't look at some, or all, other denominations and go "Well, they're doing it wrong, they're obviously not going to heaven". The biggest is obviously Catholicism that doesn't allow taking communion with any other denomination barring two Orthodox churches, with a small little nod at the Anglicans of "you can sit in but you're not us". But all the smaller little schisms also have an underlying "we're the ones doing it right (and the others aren't)" in there, if they aren't outright cults.
Sure there's Christians who recognise what Jesus says and try to meet that and actually walk that path, extending genuine grace to others. But there are far more that have grown up in that environment of "we are better than the rest", and naturally or deliberately, use the existing power structure to tell stories to get Christianity to do the Hitting With Sticks for their pet peeve, or current thing that will get them what they want, or what has been instilled in them that they must want or there will be Hitting With Sticks at them. The saddest and most confusing for me are the ones that genuinely want to follow what Jesus says, but get absolutely beat down and mired in church structures and politics, some of it age-old, that they've inadvertently stumbled into or had the misfortune to grow up in.
It just reads as continuation of abuse to me. At least we've (mostly) upgraded from fighting wars for the moment? Bad literature and art, and even the awful politics and abuse, is better than outright bloodbaths.
...not quite sure what I want to say as a point. I suppose it's that individually, yes, genuine Christianity containing love as promised does exist. But structurally that kind of Christianity is snuffed out, and very difficult to keep alive. And it's easy and very normalised to abuse that structure for other purposes.
Imagine the repercussions if Christianity set out from the beginnings of the church to take a very strict stance on poisoners - and included poisoning of the air, earth, etc as well as substances that cause disease into it (starting from when the harm was first discovered), not just personally poisoning one person. We might have a different world.
The Bible is pretty clear from the get-go that humans are the stewards of the earth and need to take care of it. But if it's possible to read things in a "feel free to exploit this!" way, you can be sure it will be. Or just ignored. Or strategically never preached on. This particular topic really gets me frustrated, because it remains one of the big points of political Christianity that makes NO sense if you... actually read the Bible. There are others that are either never mentioned at all, or ambiguously so, but this one was always pretty clear to me. I dunno. It's one of those "here's a structure, let's use it to get what's profitable to us" instances.
Post by: dreki on October 27, 2022, 02:32:45 AM
I reckon, Yastreb. Dunno if you remember my stepmother, old Irene, who was the kind of Christian I can respect. She actually did the stuff that the Christ required his folk to do, and loved and served other people. So I was willing to listen to her proselytise and read her bible so I understood her better. She never succeeded in converting any of my mostly Pagan family, but her efforts were honest and her heart was in it. I can honour that.
Reminds me of Anne from adv1. I really like Anne. She was a great representation of Christianity, imo. Sincere and genuine in her faith, genuinely prioritized the wellbeing of the people she served, clearly wished Reynir and Onni would convert but ultimately respected their autonomy and was still grateful for their help.
I haven't gotten to the "able to find genuine human interaction and care in religion" part of recovery yet, and might not ever. Even the kindest care always came with strings attached.
I've found it in inter-faith places. They can't really attach strings as much because they're so heavily based on respecting and embracing differences and encouraging autonomy.
Pagans tend to be an umbrella group with a broad variety of different belief systems, so they tend to be good company. Universalist Unitarian aspires to this but the one I've been to was sadly Christian Lite. There's other groups like that but it can be a bit hard to find because they aren't "organized" like churches.
I won't say that single-religion spaces can't have it, but it is harder and the strings will slip in because they're more of an echo chamber.
Circling back to what I loved about SSSS - it was interfaith. There were 3 separate religions and atheism all coexisting with respect. They were all correct.
I do think the atheists were correct about Sweden as well - that they don't have mages and they have accomplished without magic. And while the gods can be invoked there, it doesn't mean that Sweden isn't an overall atheistic nation that's accomplished what they have without the gods.
Which in no way invalidates the role the gods play in the other nations, or suggests anyone is wrong.
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Lovely People, for one, reads as someone's frustration with Twitter, as told by someone who mainly gets human interaction via Twitter, with cookie cutter Christian moral persecution story pasted over the top, that, well, does the hitting with sticks
Also SO CLEARLY an incredibly tiny subset of Twitter. There are so many areas of social media that are Christian circle jerks. There are influencers whose big thing is that they're christian.
It's just more of that "War On Christmas" crap where if you aren't exclusively focusing on Christianity and are welcoming to all - then you are "attacking" Christianity. Ugh.
Post by: yung_chrysanthemum on November 28, 2022, 09:10:49 PM
(when kiwisbybeat went down a lot of it was NOT archived so I kind of figured the Wayback Machine wouldn't have correctly captured SSSS and aRTD either)
Post by: thorny on November 28, 2022, 11:40:54 PM
Post by: Hedge on August 23, 2023, 08:45:19 AM
I've come to fear that Minna might eventually take SSSS or aRTD down as not aligning with her newfound beliefs, so I archived them on my computer. Then I realized that the Wayback Machine already has them fully backed up. Well, that was a wasted effort I suppose....
(when kiwisbybeat went down a lot of it was NOT archived so I kind of figured the Wayback Machine wouldn't have correctly captured SSSS and aRTD either)
Waybackmachine is amazing but it's also tortuously slow to load, so personally archiving the comic isn't a bad idea for personal use anyway.
R.e. her hypothetically taking them down, I'm not sure how much of a risk that is but it does tie into something that I've been thinking about as I'm currently rereading (also I never actually finished it after all this went down so I'm going to see how SSSS actually ends now I guess?): Just a general sense of sadness that I suspect we'll never get some answers we could have otherwise.
Like, there were always big questions about this world that she wouldn't answer because the story was still ongoing, but the kind of thing you might be able to ask a creator after the end. Like, did she actually have an explanation for magic happening with the rash? What was the deal with the "gods" of the setting? A couple other things as well that are just...I suspect that with her new faith, particularly the rather hard line it appears to have taken, we'd never get a satisfying answer now, or core concepts may have been privately retconned because those are False Gods etc.
Post by: thorny on August 23, 2023, 10:49:38 AM
And I'm not sure if she ever had a really clear idea of where she was going. I expect she had some sense of it, but may well have been working out most of it as she went along.
Post by: Jitter on August 23, 2023, 03:16:18 PM
We also tried to ask some Important Questions in the Twitch streams around the end, and she promised to answer but it was clear she wasn’t really interested anymore. There’s some discussion about it around the Forum. A particularly chafing discussion was when I asked about the fire in Emil’s dream and whether his mom died in it. Minna seemed to come up with a somewhat silky scenario on the spot about how she died (not in the fire) so I actually gave up asking in the fear of generating canon or at least canon-adjacent responses that were not thought out at all. During those discussions it seemed she didn’t have notes of many things, and definitely not of all things.
Post by: angsttronaut on August 23, 2023, 07:02:40 PM
Post by: thorny on August 24, 2023, 09:29:40 AM
And I agree that asking her further risks getting answers, if any are given at all, that don't work well with previous canon. Better to leave it alone; at least, unless she switches gears again eventually later, and comes back herself to this work with a perspective that enhances rather than denigrates it. While a later switch wouldn't surprise me, it might not lead to a resurgence of this particular work, as it might be in some different direction altogether.