Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'

[Alkia]

Before I share my opinion, disclaimer of sorts :-): I haven't read the whole bunny comic, just the first act and then I skipped to the end and read the afterword and decided to stop there.

And, echoing what pinkysaxton said: this thread has been really good to read, it's lovely with what intelligence and (mostly) politeness everyone has talked about this sensitive topic and it's definitely helped me process things! Thank you!!

My thoughts are this:

              Religious media makes me uncomfortable for a number of reasons: Christianity's historic justification of homophobia, transphobia, racism, xenophobia and overall hatred with religion; it’s habit of trying to convert others (even if that comes out of a genuinely well-intentioned place); merely the fact that I'm not religious; the fact that I'm bisexual and a lot of branches of Christianity see that as a sin; and more, are all factors. I'm not saying that Minna is doing any of these things, and I know a lot of Christian people who are anything but (they are some of the most loving, respectful people I know) but based on what I saw of the comic and that afterword, she does seem to have gone towards a rather toxic strain of Christianity.
 
             I won't be following any later projects of hers, but I don't see a problem with continuing to read and buy SSSS because I trust her words that it won't be influenced too much by her new religion and I do think it's possible to enjoy exceptional art and storytelling even if I disagree with the author. I guess overall I'm not offended or annoyed at the "preachiness" of the comic and the afterword, just very surprised and kind of disappointed-- I respect her decision to use her skills to make religious art, but I feel like such a huge talent could be much better used in more original projects like ARtD and SSSS.
 
             I totally understand those who were offended and hurt by it though, seeing how that kind of preaching was often used in abusive ways (and, as others have said, that's another thing that rubs me the wrong way; her refusal to acknowledge any valid hurt she caused, either here and now or with the Emil incident). That being said, as others have also mentioned, this has been a tough mental health year for everyone, and maybe this is just her way of dealing with it. I feel like I don't want to speculate further without knowing more of the story (what things could have happened in her life that she hasn't shared?), so in short:

though I disagree with it, I respect her choice and I really really hope she's okay. I'm also definitely going to stay around the Forum too because this Fandom has had such a good impact on my life and I've come to care about a lot of people here (and I'm also going to keep making fan art because, as I said, I believe it's possible to enjoy art even if I disagree with the author :-)).


Some other little things that I wasn't sure how to slot in:

- I agree with people who are sad/disappointed by the queerbaiting, as an Emilalli shipper myself at least fan works can be made (and hey who knows, maybe something will still happen before the end of SSSS! I doubt it but there's always hope!! Minna's dad's comment, if that really was her dad, did reassure me a little)

- The lack of a trigger warning, or any sort of note that might tell people of the very christian and sensitive nature of the afterword (though, as others have said, I don't think the comic or afterword was meant to be hurtful)


Sorry for the very long length and all the repetitions of what many previous have more eloquently said

[fervious]

"Lovely People" could have been not only a beautiful work of art but also an interesting metaphor for all those important issues that should be adressed. But that last page and Minna's afterwords created a level of discomfort and noise that eclipsed everything else.

Faith is a choice, even Christians will tell you this.
Being oppressed is not a choice for many oppressed groups and individuals; that is the problem. Minna is using a the viewpoint of someone of faith (faith is a choice). This doesn't translate over to someone with no choice (of race, LGBT+, culture, economic class, etc)

Choice is important here because choice is weaponized in dangerous, seriously damaging modern day conversion camps in different variations (ie. "being gay is a choice, you must discontinue and be forgiven"). This is even the policy of many seemingly-accepting churches (ie. many will say they accept those whom are gay, but they really want you to come to Church so they can tell you to make the "choice to not be gay").

[Sc0ut]

Anyways, ignorance is bred from not being exposed the oppressed and their struggles. In many ways I'm still ignorant of the struggles of those with less money, of different races, cultures, and immigration status here in the United States; acknowledging that and trying to learn, sympathize, and not invalidate those groups is what doesn't make me a "bad person". It might very well be that Minna is not exposed to these elements very much in her region.

Oof.. I can see you mean well but I think people cut her too much slack for not being American. Race and other minority issues exist everywhere in the world. There are plenty of different ethnicities in Finland, some of them with a long history of being there, others shorter, but they visibly exist (I've visited there and I saw). Besides, the internet is an invaluable teaching tool for all of us regardless of our upbringing, if we choose to use it. I was born in Eastern Europe and have lived here all my life; English is not my native language, and I'm not that well traveled. Still, because I spend a lot of time online and have international friends, I am informed on a variety of issues that pertain to groups that I've had little to no personal experience with, and viewpoints and cultural trends that come from outside of my country; I accept, at the very least, that I don't know everything and I'm open to being told I made a mistake or need to educate myself more (for instance I am also white and grew up with frankly very racist ideas but learned to start deconstructing them as an adult, when I was exposed to writings by people affected by racism). This is a bare minimum of decency that Minna doesn't have, as we saw in the slur incident, and it can't be blamed on her culture, since most Finns I know do not have this issue (sorry if this sounds rude to say, but well, it's true imo). Sometimes, if it walks like a bigot and it quacks like a bigot...

[Yuuago]

Anyways, ignorance is bred from not being exposed the oppressed and their struggles. In many ways I'm still ignorant of the struggles of those with less money, of different races, cultures, and immigration status here in the United States; acknowledging that and trying to learn, sympathize, and not invalidate those groups is what doesn't make me a "bad person". It might very well be that Minna is not exposed to these elements very much in her region. I grew up in Memphis, which is a very "charged" area. By this, I mean that it isn't always about race but more about social economic class (things I was taught such as, "it's okay to be black, but we pity the poor, and you cannot act like the poor,").

This idea of current-day social economic and cultural classism be a very abstract to people from societies where wealth is distributed much more evenly. To them, the idea of class is tied to medieval books about peasants, churches, and kings. Not current-day society where-in there are people are judged for speaking inner-city style because it's "ghetto" and "makes them low class".

I can tell you mean well but the things you wrote are tone deaf. Maybe I misunderstood what you meant?

Issues of race, class, wealth distribution etc look different in Finland than they do in the USA, but this doesn’t mean that these problems do not exist or that the problem of class inequality is something of the Middle Ages (?!!!)

Nor is the issue of class being linked to dialect/language unknown there either.

I assure you, Sundberg’s issues are not because she hasn’t been exposed to these problems in their international context - there are plenty in her home country.

[Jerry B.]

Somehow, I get the feeling that people are reading a lot more into this story than is there.

Seems to me a pretty straightforward criticism of the Social Credit system that is used in China and elsewhere, and that the  Christians as the oppressed minority could just as well been any other group that doesn't espouse the government's desires, be they Communists, Libertarians, people of other religious faiths, etc.

[Maple]

Somehow, I get the feeling that people are reading a lot more into this story than is there.

Seems to me a pretty straightforward criticism of the Social Credit system that is used in China and elsewhere, and that the  Christians as the oppressed minority could just as well been any other group that doesn't espouse the government's desires, be they Communists, Libertarians, people of other religious faiths, etc.

Her author's notes confirm that the way people are reading it is possibly true though. Just the comic on its own would be a touch tone-deaf but not really problematic. But in the context of the author's notes, it looks very much like Minna is saying "Christians are the real oppressed group" when that just isn't true in the majority of the world.

[Róisín]

Two things:
James 2:14-26. ‘Faith without works is dead’.

Matthew 25: 14-30  and Luke 19:11-27: the parable of the Talents or Minæ. One of the parables of the Christ, and probably one of the origins of our modern use of the word ‘talent’ as meaning an innate gift or skill rather than as a unit of currency or measurement.

Consider these.

[thegreyarea]

Faith is a choice, even Christians will tell you this.

I agree with you on the weaponization and misunderstanding of choice, and how that can be used as an oppressive tool.

But Faith, for those that truly believe in it, is not a choice, is indissociable from their identity. Countless people have been killed along History because they had the wrong Faith. Some chose to pretend embracing another faith to escape. Many chose to stand by their faith and perish.
And that's when they had the chance to choose (Jews on WW II weren't given any choice. Once identified as Jew there was no way out).

Therefore I don't see any problem in using Faith as a cause for exclusion and oppression in a story. (and political options would work the same way, they're also a choice, as practicing magic would be, etc...)
The problem is how the author does it. In this case Minna's afterwords, together with that last page, gave the story a different meaning, one of religious proselytism.
Suddenly the story was no longer about a group that faces exclusion due to their legitimate options (keeping their Faith, whatever it is) to become specifically a piece of Christian propaganda, and one written in a blunt way that represents not only the author personal options about her own life but also her worldview, even implying that we, readers, should follow that particular Faith if we want to be saved.

Minna, from what we have seen, should be smart enough to know better. People don't like to get pushed. Even if she wanted to pass that message (because she ultimately believes in it) she could have done it in a more subtle way. I can only see what she did as influenced by the enthusiasm with her new Faith, as she wrote "...there's still time to sound the message of salvation".
Please note that I'm not advocating her options. I don't like what she did, and to me it ruined what could have been a great work. I'm just trying to analyze all this with a cool head.

Her author's notes confirm that the way people are reading it is possibly true though. Just the comic on its own would be a touch tone-deaf but not really problematic. But in the context of the author's notes, it looks very much like Minna is saying "Christians are the real oppressed group" when that just isn't true in the majority of the world.

I don't get that exact meaning. She pictures Christians as an oppressed group, and doesn't point others, that's true, but she doesn't claim they are "the real oppressed group". She surely knows that Christians are not oppressed in Finland. (Unless she see her particular sect as oppressed. That's a possibility...)

[orangewolf]

Her author's notes confirm that the way people are reading it is possibly true though. Just the comic on its own would be a touch tone-deaf but not really problematic. But in the context of the author's notes, it looks very much like Minna is saying "Christians are the real oppressed group" when that just isn't true in the majority of the world.

I agree, her afterword makes what she was trying to say very clear. As I said before, she could have "made up" a religion to put as a placeholder in the story to act as a metaphor for all religions. However, she decided to use the literal Bible in her fantasy world. She is saying that Christians are the real persecuted class.

[Maglor]

She is saying that Christians are the real persecuted class.

Could it be a reference to a Biblical times, where early Christians were actually persecuted?

[Maple]

Could it be a reference to a Biblical times, where early Christians were actually persecuted?

But she didn't show that. She showed a modern understanding of Christianity.

[hollow]

Hey y'all,
Like many others in this thread, I am a long time reader but new to the forum. I just finished reading this whole thread and most of what I feel has already been expressed. I feel pretty alienated by Minna's words and concerned for her mental well being. However, I really hope that her faith can sustain and comfort her in this incredibly challenging time. I'd rather she have these beliefs and a reason to live than.... well I won't say it here.

Disregarding any of the religious ideas in the comic, I was disappointed with it. I've come to expect a level of emotional depth and subtlety in Minna's storytelling. Lovely People felt like a simplistic and occasionally condescending handling of some very important issues. The bunnies behave in very simplistic, disingenuous ways, such as the teacher and her behavior towards her students. From the very first panel, with its entirely unsubtle introduction, I felt as though the comic was not as great as it could be. It almost felt like a comic for very young readers. However, the strong, punishing words of the ending do not seem suitable for young readers at all.

Minna did, however, knock it out of the park with the art. Very very well done. The art almost makes it up for me. But not enough. 

[tzelly]

There is this sense of selfishness, this idea of "oh now that I am the oppressed one I understand, and we need to change things now", it permeates through most Christian media. It's like the only feelings that matter are Christian feelings, and anyone else who gets hurt is merely a plot device or background setting for the Christian characters' own suffering. (See: the bunny that the daughter tried to give food to, and how we never saw her again after that.)

This is part of what made me uncomfortable about the comic. That attitude- that only Christians and their suffering matters, everyone else is just background decoration to use as needed- is so, so common. Especially in America, where I'm from. And seeing it again in this comic just reminded me of all the reasons I personally became an Atheist.

This, I've been having that moment replay in my head over and over in my head and the moment of the teacher bunny screaming about not talking to non people after violently kicking at the beggar bunny. (dont remember any of their names and at this point dont care to) This is the moment I started hating the characters. Its that selfishness that some people are worthy of respect or basic human rights, and the "others" are un-people trash that should just starve cause they should have "known better". Cause they are not the "true believers". Made me sick and so angry.

Not to mention that heel turn right by the end with "oh no, MY baby!! :C " like its different now, now that its personal. Dude, it dont have to be personal for you to see a problem in a system, you self centered twat.

Its stuff like this and many other reasons that I turned away from my family's faith many years ago.

[Maple]

This, I've been having that moment replay in my head over and over in my head and the moment of the teacher bunny screaming about not talking to non people after violently kicking at the beggar bunny. (dont remember any of their names and at this point dont care to) This is the moment I started hating the characters. Its that selfishness that some people are worthy of respect or basic human rights, and the "others" are un-people trash that should just starve cause they should have "known better". Cause they are not the "true believers". Made me sick and so angry.

Not to mention that heel turn right by the end with "oh no, MY baby!! :C " like its different now, now that its personal. Dude, it dont have to be personal for you to see a problem in a system, you self centered twat.

Its stuff like this and many other reasons that I turned away from my family's faith many years ago.

It would have made for a more powerful storytelling moment- AND a more powerful Christian storytelling moment- if the beggar bunny had been where the teacher bunny had started to question the system. It's easy to overlook suffering you hear about but don't see on your own. But seeing a bunny unable to get food when they are not a rotten person, that would have been a more powerful world-shattering moment for teacher bunny. Maybe not enough to make her give up the system, having her daughter be the moment she gives up on the government is okay. But she could have started questioning it when she saw the beggar bunny. That is more in line with Christianity, and would have made for a stronger story.

[Junkt69]

So as I've been reading through this thread I keep seeing some mention to something everyone refers to as the "Emil incident," but I have no idea what that is. Would someone be nice enough to point me in the right direction so that I can figure out what this is? I started reading this comic forever ago and once I got caught up to the most recent page (at least the most recent page at the time) I ended up forgetting about it and I'm just now coming back to reading this comic again. I started reading the bunny comic, and I'm not done yet and will reserve judgement for when I finish, but I came over here to see what everyone thought of it. Anyways, everyone's mentioning something to do with Emil and I kind of want to know what exactly happened so that I can make an informed decision. So can anybody help?