Author Topic: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'  (Read 108033 times)

Sc0ut

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #225 on: March 25, 2021, 03:41:43 AM »
I don't think I've seen anyone mention this before but I find it really funny that in the Jesus segment, every bunny is brown, except Jesus who is white... I'm afraid we might have gotten our diversity representation in the worst way possible  :'D *
___________
*No I am not saying brown bunnies are a real equivalent of putting human characters that are not white in her comics but like... I just couldn't help but notice this detail

Crumpite

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #226 on: March 25, 2021, 04:11:47 AM »
That's a good catch !
And pretty funny 😄

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #227 on: March 25, 2021, 04:23:51 AM »
The really sinister idea would be to have the World Council occasionally kill everybody in that village off, re-seeding it with a few of its inner circle (assured, truly or falsely, that they'd survive and be rewarded) to welcome the next batch of dissidents until enough of them built up to be worth also finishing off.
In that case, there would be no point in having an actual village at all, just a killbox sufficiently far away that the main part of the society will never get to know about it. But having the water supply spiked with contraceptives "just to limit the resources needed to run this" would be a definite possibility. "Hey, we're still not killing anyone outright!"

I grew up Catholic [...] and I can't imagine any of them agreeing with the idea of all humans being irredeemable sinners who don't deserve mercy. Inherently flawed, yes. Original sin, yes. But it seems to me that Minna doesn't fully understand the faith herself yet
That is, of course, assuming that the faith she found agrees with that POV; Catholicism has a wee bit of history (warning, sarcasm) of other Christian streams finding it schism-worthy.

For what it's worth, two tenets that my (Catholic) religion teachers were rather adamant about are (paraphrased)
Quote
Do not ask God to fix things for you that you can at least try to fix yourself, as that is to put God to the test, and thus a sin
and
Quote
Do not expect God to [generally] counteract evil that has been brought on by the actions of humans, for that would force Him to nullify the gift of free will He gave to us
- and installing an Alizongle system unto a society is quite clearly something that humans do, and can quite likely prevent as well.
Spoiler: show

For example, you could be a systems administrator, held to the German privacy protection legalese beyond what your employer could tell you to do, have begun your career as an actual (smol) officer of the public administration, have taken the usual oath on the constitution back then, which tells you to provide impartial service to all sexes/faiths/..., [not going into things "never again" here], know of other technician positions where it is a job requirement to be willing to defend customers' civil rights against the actual law enforcement ('cause it does have a number of representatives who'll happily yell-quote Judge Dredd at you), yadda yadda. Which should tell you just how happy I am about people who see fit to spread a message that just trusting in the right god will get the problem fixed pronto, and that the fact that I don't suggests that I'm more likely to be The Enemy™ in this.


Minna did say in her notes on the SSSS page that she intends to study theology more, so maybe she will learn more nuance, but knowing what I do about religious education materials for Christianity... well, there's nothing I can do about that. Good luck to her.
The academic interpretation of "to study" implies that the student locates relevant sources himself, at least potentially including all POV on the matter. I'm not sure that, once people are using the term as in "[Holy Scripture of your choice] studies", it still has the same connotation to them.

Side note: I'm surprised she went with Alizongle instead of Amazongle or Amababa. [...]
Third, a lot of it really seemed more an indictment of the Twittersphere [...]
Am I overly paranoid to assume that "Alizongle" is a conflation of Alibaba, Amazon, and Google, plus a pervasive bird avatar and "toots" to refer to Twitter, "Buuber" for Uber, etc.?
Which would suggest that "World Council" might not be chosen at random, either ...

what struck me both about the comic and about Minna's message was how her flavour of Christianity doesn't seem to put any emphasis whatsoever on good behaviour, however they might choose to define it. In fact, for certain readings of her afterword, it seems that she/they might even see the attempt to treat people better as vain and futile "self-improvement" (which she very clearly states she looks down upon). So her faith allows her to a) not feel bad about any flaws she identifies in her, since everyone else is "sinful" anyway b) not feel the need to improve on them because the only act that really matters is accepting god's forgiveness, and she's done that already
It is a train of thoughts in a number of Christian faiths that because your possibilities pale in comparison to God's, thinking that you can do something about worldly problems other than praying for God to get His hands dirty on it is overestimating your power, hence (vain) pride, hence a sin. (If not, even worse, trying to better it goes straight against God's plans, for it is written that this world will and shall perish in full accordance to His will.)

... of course, I could raise the question "what was that about 'God's gift of free will' again?" here as well ...
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Wolfdogamer

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #228 on: March 25, 2021, 06:34:08 AM »
So I just finished reading it and I honestly didn't mind the story nor its ending...I personally like stories that has a setting where the characters live in a old-timey world or in a post-apocalyptic world where they live off the land completely, so the ending was fine. I read over a lot of the Christian stuff in it tho so I might re-read it later, if I feel like it.

I honestly don't know what to think of the author's note, it made me feel a bit sh*t. I currently live in a fundamentalist church (that isn't very accepting of certain things) so anything and everything Christian I tend to ignore or shy away from...It's too much bother and I would rather just not associate myself with it, it's never really helped me.

Nevertheless, I still like SSSS and will continue to read it, depending on whatever Minna does/says in the future.

fervious

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #229 on: March 25, 2021, 06:38:47 AM »
I guess I'm just used to the whole, "saying/doing good things doesn't get you to God" thing from being raised my Mormons and Baptists (I know, weird combination. Trust me, the conflict between sides was SO passive aggressive). It isn't anything new from believers of God, so I've come to expect it from anyone who is Christian.

I'm little annoyed that a cute little comic didn't really warn me before doing the spiel, but I totally get the fear of social credit systems. I've read full length online comics based off the struggles of characters within the constraints of social credit system, and it absolutely a near-if-not dystopian idea by how easily it can manipulate and abuse people. However, I read comics about this topic without the religious commentary and presentation of religious persecution.

Just remember that no matter what, that if you are a Christian and you write only about being persecuted for that, many people will not receive that well. People who are LGBT+ are going to openly have distaste for this, because of gay conversion camps who abuse people, not to mention being outcast or judged differently by many churches (and their own families/friends) because of traits they, the oppressed, cannot control. For example, often being told they must repent for being gay, when that is how they are born. Your "religious persecution" is not equivalent to those who are often disenfranchised, abused, and outcast by Christian members of society.

The Christian in this story is:
- Told they are part of a radical group and generalized as stereotype.
- Told that even mentioning they believe in Jesus is wrong and deducts points
- That writings that praise their beliefs are bad
- That putting their belief out there means they will be judged

Really, it is all to easy to flip the script. Simply flip it as follows.

The gay person ins this story is:
- Told they are part of a radical group (non-believers, anti-theist, and apostate) and generalized as a stereotype.
- Told that even mentioning that they do not believe in Jesus is wrong and deducts points
- That writings about self-acceptance and love while being gay are bad
- That writing about how they are gay is bad.

The thing here is that belief is a choice, and being gay is not. Complaining about being oppressed for your faith while there are whole-ass groups of people being abused in conversion camps is tone-deaf and thusly will open yourself up to criticism. Minna could have easily included one of the "best friends" being an genuinely-oppressed group (I was waiting for it while reading), but did not. Maybe the kid instead of hating the system could've been trans, and abused/deducted credits for that. The main character could've recognized that, found it wrong, and sympathized with the family, validated the kid and the mom by choosing what is right by her faith (accepting others), and rejecting the concept of a system that oppressed the disenfranchised entirely.

In short: this comic could've easily been spun as a cute Christian comic about recognizing a system that oppresses many, and being a good ally to those people while also finding your faiths attacked. Instead, it ignored those who are significantly more oppressed and often directly oppressed and abused by Christians. How sad and tone deaf.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2021, 08:23:04 AM by fervious »

pinkysaxton

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #230 on: March 25, 2021, 06:50:07 AM »
I've never posted here, and have only started reading the fan forum recently (although I've snuck over to fanfictions occasionally). I guess I'm another person who felt compelled to say something during this turn of events.
What I'd really like to express is gratitude for the conversation itself. I could just say thanks to those who agree and validate my feelings. But even those in the minority have made remarks that spurred my own thoughts – that I then saw mirrored in others. So thank you all for the discourse. And thanks to the mods for keeping up with the comments.
My boyfriend noticed the other night that I was very down. It was partly the afterword, but it was mostly this unrecognized feeling that I had no one to talk to about it. No one would get it. I'd have to explain it all, then complain, then hope for validation from someone who wasn't there for it. That's what you've given me. I feel validated. But I also feel like I don't need some person to agree with everything I think all the time. As a community, you've given me a chance to process everything. You've echoed hopes that someone I care for hasn't changed. But you've also bluntly stated that those whispers I've been shutting out were true. That this isn't a change, at all. Not truly. And all those who disagree with me have made me think, "Am I just faking hindsight?" so that I can reexamine my views and come back with a firm, "No! I am certain."
Thank you for being what I needed, saying what I needed to hear, and having the same insights I did. I'm past denial and into, "Well, we saw this coming." And it's been a better ride for this forum. The peace is flowing in. Because even though this is just the beliefs of some author online who will never meet me, it hurt to be looked down upon and then later dismissed. It hurt to have concern met with, "I'm surprised by how little I care," and not, "Your worries are misplaced, but I know they come from a place of compassion." And that hurt is fading, now that I've had a thorough chance to work through my feelings, through the tactful and precise comments made here.

Pessi

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #231 on: March 25, 2021, 07:04:30 AM »
I guess I'm just used to the whole, "saying/doing good things doesn't get you to God" thing from being raised my Mormons and Baptists (I know, weird combination. Trust me, the conflict between sides was SO passive aggressive). It isn't anything new from believers of God, so I've come to expect it from anyone who is Christian.

I remember being taught that Luther said how "good deeds don't make a good person, but a good person makes good deeds". This may well have been a simplified way to present this theme to kids since I couldn't find such quote with a quick Google search. However I found a few pages about what the protestant reformers actually thought about good deeds in relation to faith. They seem to have been rather unified in the opinion that doing good to your neighbor doesn't give you any advantage on the path to salvation. However if you have true faith you will want to serve God, and the only way a human being can do that is by serving their neighbor. So if you have faith in God, you will want to serve Him, and so you will naturally start doing good to other people. In Bible this is expressed by Jesus in Mathew 25 when he says "Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me".

This ties up quite nicely with what we were taught about the essence of sin on one of the pre-confirmation lessons: sin is synonymous to contravening God, and contravening God is synonymous to harming your neighbor, be in in thoughts, words or deeds.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2021, 07:09:32 AM by Pessi »
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danckert

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #232 on: March 25, 2021, 07:15:02 AM »
I don't think I've seen anyone mention this before but I find it really funny that in the Jesus segment, every bunny is brown, except Jesus who is white... I'm afraid we might have gotten our diversity representation in the worst way possible  :'D *

Oh no, you're right! lolsob


I've been thinking of the small lash-out against medicine, paraphrased: "getting something stronger from your doctor" and wether Minna was on meds (depression, social anxiety) and has stopped. But now I'm just imagining scenarios based on what I've seen before. I wish I knew what group she's found (or if she's just getting the crazy cool-aid mix on the internet).
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Maple

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #233 on: March 25, 2021, 07:40:57 AM »
In short: this comic could've easily been spun as a cute Christian comic about recognizing a system that oppresses many, and being a good ally to those people while also finding your faiths attacked. Instead, it ignored those who are significantly more oppressed and often directly oppressed and abused Christians. How sad and tone deaf.

This is a problem I have found in a lot of Christian media (and I was raised in a Catholic home until 13, and continued to be influenced by extended family until 18, so that was a LOT of time to consume Christian media). Rarely does it ever go the "These people are oppressed, we should be good Christians and help those who are oppressed" way. It almost always writes the story in such a way that it's the Christian characters who are the oppressed ones, and if they happen to help other people along the way of helping themselves then awesome, but their goal isn't to help everyone. It's to help themselves.

Lovely People isn't as bad as some other pieces I have seen (believe me when I say there is a LOT of garbage Christian media out there), but that same message still rings through it. "I didn't understand the oppression until I personally was oppressed, and then I had to do something about it." It reminds me of...I'm hesitant to say 'selfishness' here because I don't think it's done maliciously (by Minna in this comic, or by Christians in general), but that's what it really feels like to me. Selfishness. There is this sense of selfishness, this idea of "oh now that I am the oppressed one I understand, and we need to change things now", it permeates through most Christian media. It's like the only feelings that matter are Christian feelings, and anyone else who gets hurt is merely a plot device or background setting for the Christian characters' own suffering. (See: the bunny that the daughter tried to give food to, and how we never saw her again after that.)

This is part of what made me uncomfortable about the comic. That attitude- that only Christians and their suffering matters, everyone else is just background decoration to use as needed- is so, so common. Especially in America, where I'm from. And seeing it again in this comic just reminded me of all the reasons I personally became an Atheist.

Superdark33

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #234 on: March 25, 2021, 07:49:57 AM »
I don't think I've seen anyone mention this before but I find it really funny that in the Jesus segment, every bunny is brown, except Jesus who is white... I'm afraid we might have gotten our diversity representation in the worst way possible  :'D *
___________
*No I am not saying brown bunnies are a real equivalent of putting human characters that are not white in her comics but like... I just couldn't help but notice this detail


Not only that! The blue tint and lighting on that imagine spot is a very weird choice considering the area looks like



Jesus is not the only one who got whitewashed/northeuropewashed
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Sc0ut

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #235 on: March 25, 2021, 08:02:01 AM »

Not only that! The blue tint and lighting on that imagine spot is a very weird choice considering the area looks like



Jesus is not the only one who got whitewashed/northeuropewashed

It feels a bit cursed to defend anything in this comic but I'm pretty sure the blue tint is because the scene is happening at night. After all, roosters sing at dawn and all.

Minna could have easily included one of the "best friends" being an genuinely-oppressed group (I was waiting for it while reading), but did not. Maybe the kid instead of hating the system could've been trans, and abused/deducted credits for that. The main character could've recognized that, found it wrong, and sympathized with the family, validated the kid and the mom by choosing what is right by her faith (accepting others), and rejecting the concept of a system that oppressed the disenfranchised entirely.

In short: this comic could've easily been spun as a cute Christian comic about recognizing a system that oppresses many, and being a good ally to those people while also finding your faiths attacked. Instead, it ignored those who are significantly more oppressed and often directly oppressed and abused Christians. How sad and tone deaf.

It's generous of you to allow the possibility that the way the story is written might be just oversight or clumsy writing. Meanwhile I'm sure Minna specifically did *not* want to include groups like the lgbtq, racialised people, or anyone who is nowadays seen as defended by "political correctness" in the persecuted group. The comic and afterword are full of little details that show what she thinks about the fact that these days one is forced to consider different perspectives than their own when speaking publicly. See for instance the content warnings on the bible - basically she condemns labeling a book that really does contain sexist messages "sexist". Anything that Alizongle does in the comic, we're meant to see as bad and to be avoided. So, it is implicitly but clearly stated that Minna does not care about inclusivity and this comic is specifically and only about the persecution of a particular hardcore brand of Christians imo. (Keep in mind that it's not even about the persecution of all Christians... on the talk show we see that Alizongle approves of Christians who accept other spiritual paths as valid too, but Minna wants you to see that as not good enough and oppressive).
« Last Edit: March 25, 2021, 08:38:00 AM by Sc0ut »

thegreyarea

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #236 on: March 25, 2021, 08:16:10 AM »
I've been reading this thread (and a good part of the comments), and organizing my own thoughts so I can properly say what I think, but it's a long thread, a delicate issue and I can't spend days reading it... There are lots of excellent comments and I just can't mention or reply them all, so I'll just say a (long :) ) couple of things, even feeling that all that had already been said in some other form...

Minna did a beautiful and funny comic with a relevant social critic.
The dangers of excessive consumerism, many times involving superfluous things, the extreme overvaluation of the self, the deepening of the social divide between "VIPs" and the rest, the use of automated systems to limit free-thinking outside the "safe boundaries", turning everyone in a tool for governmental control...
All that is serious and can become worse if left untamed. So denouncing it is important.

Also, the persecution of minorities (religious, ethnic, cultural, etc...) is a sad reality. And discrimination against Christians is a reality in some places.
(One should add that this persecution isn't limited to Christians. Other faiths, cultures, sexual orientations, etc... suffer too. Basically anything that doesn't adhere or goes against the official way. And also that along History (and today) the "official" way often mixed with a particular religion, each seeking its own advantages. We know that too many times the alleged worry over people's souls and their salvation was (and is) just a cover up for acquiring power and money).

So, "Lovely People" could have been not only a beautiful work of art but also an interesting metaphor for all those important issues that should be adressed. But that last page and Minna's afterwords created a level of discomfort and noise that eclipsed everything else.

While Minna's desire to shout out to the World her newfound faith is understandable (even if a bit childish), the way she did it, using the kind of speech we immediately associate with the worst "flavours" of Christianity, isn't.
I don't think she meant to do any harm, on the contrary, she clearly sees herself as a person with many flaws (who isn't?) that found a new, comfortable place, and wants to show that path to everybody else.

I wasn't expecting that (and I believe few were). I saw the bible references and thought "ok, she's focusing this on the Bible but we could imagine here the Quran or other relevant book"... But then came that final page (if only she stopped on the penultimate one, and skipped the afterwords).

She gave no warning about it. And for many, as shown in the comments, this is as very sensitive topic. Many still feel, and are indeed, oppressed and damaged by Christians.
(not to mention a long story of abuses and terrible actions).

To make things worst came that final conspiracy theory part that obviously has no basis at all...
(As someone said "anyone that believes in conspiracy theories never acted as a project manager trying to make (just) 10 people do their part in a coordinated way while keeping silent about it").

Each alone would be very bad. Together they made the comic a mess. Gone is the opportunity to tackle those relevant issues.

final note:
I grew a Catholic, so Minna's words didn't hurt me immediately, they felt just... uncomfortable, and wrong. The Catholic faith where I grew tempered these "Old Testament" views with an emphasis on each one's ability to become a better person. The Original Sin and Hell in the scriptures were just metaphors.
I remember one priest saying "The only hell is closing yourself and living without love".
I hope Minna finds, by herself or with the help of more mature and moderate minds, a better path.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2021, 08:41:48 AM by thegreyarea »
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TheOneThatGotAway

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #237 on: March 25, 2021, 08:38:29 AM »
Just a quick aside that popped up in my mind the other night: why are they all running away? Why aren't they trying to help the other bunnies that are "trapped" in the system? Sure, Alizongle can define you an un-person, but they believed the re-education camps were nice places, or is that out the window too? Whose spreading these maps? Surely there must be MORE bunnies that felt persecuted, so what if they all protested together? Are they ALL afraid to stand up for their faith?

Also, shun the non-believer! Peony was just "lying" about her beliefs, but secretly she was a "good person" all along, now that she has to run away? Shun, shun, shun the non-believer!

Maglor

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #238 on: March 25, 2021, 08:45:10 AM »
You know, reading the last post, I've had an interesting idea.
Ok, so the comic came out allright, and then the afterword made a tonn of noise. Someone's offended, someone's not, but everyone is in it. Minna have a long career in media by now, so I think she knows how things work.
What if she made her afterword intendebly offensive (though it's still just a bit rude for me, but that's just a difference in our standards of offensiveness, I guess) to make people pay attention to her message? To make them talk about it, think about it, start a discussion?
To think about it, a lot of Romans and Pharisees probably found Jesus'es preaching offensive, but that's exactly what made him popular.
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fervious

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #239 on: March 25, 2021, 08:47:44 AM »
It's generous of you to allow the possibility that the way the story is written might be just oversight or clumsy writing. Meanwhile I'm sure Minna specifically did *not* want to include groups like the lgbtq, racialised people, or anyone who is nowadays seen as defended by "political correctness" in the persecuted group. The comic and afterword are full of little details that show what she thinks about the fact that these days one is forced to consider different perspectives than their own when speaking publicly. See for instance the content warnings on the bible - basically she condemns labeling a book that really does contain sexist messages "sexist". Anything that Alizongle does in the comic, we're meant to see as bad and to be avoided. So, it is implicitly but clearly stated that Minna does not care about inclusivity and this comic is specifically and only about the persecution of a particular hardcore brand of Christians imo.

Most Christians I've met do mean well, so I'm always willing to give more benefit of doubt. But I was raised by Christians, so obviously they cared about me and my well-being. Mostly.

Anyways, ignorance is bred from not being exposed the oppressed and their struggles. In many ways I'm still ignorant of the struggles of those with less money, of different races, cultures, and immigration status here in the United States; acknowledging that and trying to learn, sympathize, and not invalidate those groups is what doesn't make me a "bad person". It might very well be that Minna is not exposed to these elements very much in her region. I grew up in Memphis, which is a very "charged" area. By this, I mean that it isn't always about race but more about social economic class (things I was taught such as, "it's okay to be black, but we pity the poor, and you cannot act like the poor,").

This idea of current-day social economic and cultural classism be a very abstract to people from societies where wealth is distributed much more evenly. To them, the idea of class is tied to medieval books about peasants, churches, and kings. Not current-day society where-in there are people are judged for speaking inner-city style because it's "ghetto" and "makes them low class".

I hope this explains a little where I come from. I came from a white family of decent wealth; I was not allowed to have city dialect ("ghetto"), we were not friends with black families unless they acted "non-ghetto" (and praised the Lord). Speaking "proper English" was pushed, however improper English was accepted (ie, phrases like, ain't, thingmabob, etc) until it was associated with the poor. It was really enlightening to realize this about my upbringing and reject it. I get along with my peers much better.

Anyways, maybe I just have a little too much faith in the good side of people. ;)