I don't think that's Bosse. Doesn't that pic say it's in North Dakota? (small print, bottom of pic).
I do wonder how a picture from North Dakota managed to make it to archives in the Known World.
I am shocked by the extremely small populations of all the non-Icelandic countries. They seem far too small to support much of any sort of industry, especially if half the people are in the military!
So, any thoughts on the map on page 66?Lots, but I already commented on that back then, mostly. :3
I am shocked by the extremely small populations of all the non-Icelandic countries. They seem far too small to support much of any sort of industry, especially if half the people are in the military!The military having priority use of a lot of the technology available (e.g., vehicles) likely means that the people producing/maintaining/operating it probably do qualify as "military" (e.g., Tuuri), rather than "the military" having an extra-high percentage of people who primarily are combattants.
Also, there is a comment thread about how, if there were any other survivors, the Nordics would know about them because of radio contact. And of course we know now that there is a good explanation for why this would not work: the DARK VOICES interfere with radio.I would not exactly call it a good explanation, though. Survivors would have a pronounced interest in finding out how barren the planet actually is (that's what the expedition is about, at least officially, after all), and if it's just a matter of The Voices (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Voice_(franchise)) accumulating around signals, sending only a short burst (say, at noon UTC) with nation and place name in Morse and hoping for a random listener would still serve. That emission just being heard, even if the receiver cannot read it in its entirety, just once in 90 years would still get the message across.
It might be a little too early for this (as we haven't covered Iceland yet), but I just realized that the comments contain filks for all the prologue sections: here (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=66#comment-1863197485)! I decided to post the link before I forget.I didn't want to bring it up until we got there, and I don't like blowing my own horn, but I honestly think that this (https://archiveofourown.org/works/10957275/chapters/24397047) version is better.
I suppose there could be teams that go in right before the Cleansers? It could even be the motivation behind many cleansing efforts.Not according to Torbjörns ex-boss (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=137) ...
Not according to Torbjörns ex-boss (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=137) ...
I am not sure that the boss' comment proves that nothing is salvaged. I mean, those 'hooligans' could be grabbing whatever they fancy before they burn down the books. (Even just for sale in the black market.)
I am a little surprised, though, that Torb didn't ask his nephew to stash a few books in his waistband or something.
The sponsors seem to intend to sell the books to Danes, but Swedes are also interested in technology, and anyway, translation would always be an option if the books were in Swedish instead of Danish.Well, Torbjörn said out loud (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=139) that the highest bids were from Danes for specific, presumably Danish, books. And him and his boss seem to have tacitly agreed that, copyslave skalds and translators or not, it's the originals that have particularly high price tags attached to them. Of course, neither makes much sense to us ratio-governed ancients (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61339179), so it may be some common post-Rash crazyness, or just "Torbjörn logic" that managed to find three susceptible fools to make for a quartet ...
Well, Torbjörn said out loud (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=139) that the highest bids were from Danes for specific, presumably Danish, books.
And him and his boss seem to have tacitly agreed that, copyslave skalds and translators or not, it's the originals that have particularly high price tags attached to them. Of course, neither makes much sense to us ratio-governed ancients (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61339179), so it may be some common post-Rash crazyness, or just "Torbjörn logic" that managed to find three susceptible fools to make for a quartet ...
And yet the team doesn't seem to have a list of those books or where they might beOh, they do have a list of where to look (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=227) (no small feat, given the ubiquity of small communal libraries in pre-Rash Denmark), though some of us were quite surprised of the places they skipped (https://sssscomic.fandom.com/wiki/Copenhagen#Points_of_Interest) along their path.
and Sigrun doesn't appear to be aware that they're supposed to be looking for specific books.Frankly, Sigrun has no concept (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=269) that there are "specific" books. :3
Oh, they do have a list of where to look (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=227) (no small feat, given the ubiquity of small communal libraries in pre-Rash Denmark), though some of us were quite surprised of the places they skipped (https://sssscomic.fandom.com/wiki/Copenhagen#Points_of_Interest) along their path.
Frankly, Sigrun has no concept (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=269) that there are "specific" books. :3
Although the books are at the heart of the story, there's a real problem with the world-building around them. You can handwave that the Icelanders, Norwegians, and Finns went back to magic and therefore burned their books, but the Danes and Swedes didn't. The best you can do for the Swedes is that they used books as fuel when it was cold and too dangerous to go searching for firewood, but that doesn't seem to apply to the Danes, who were on their island and presumably not infested with trolls (Bornholm is "safe" not "cleansed"). And then, as tehta points out, even if you suppose that Swedes and Danes did burn their books for fuel or in reaction to the Rash, why aren't books now being scavenged, particularly in Sweden?
For that matter, there's a world-building problem with the whole expedition. Why send it to Silent Denmark? No one would have anticipated that the bridge would collapse, but still, the base can only be supplied by ship or the dangerous and unreliable railroad. Why not send the expedition into Silent Sweden, where, if you did find something really valuable, a second expedition could be easily launched to retrieve it? Or, if the expedition got in trouble somehow (pinned down by trolls, for instance), a rescue mission could be easily mounted from Mora? The sponsors seem to intend to sell the books to Danes, but Swedes are also interested in technology, and anyway, translation would always be an option if the books were in Swedish instead of Danish.
The question of "Why Denmark?" leads me to think that the whole expedition was organized by General Trond to get a specific, unique item that is in Denmark, and the books are just a cover story.
Wavewright, cussing at things in the proper poetic/magical structure and usage is indeed a thing in many magical traditions, including the obvious example of the Celtic Satirists, who could use Bardic invocations to physically affect the thing or person being sworn at. Both the verse form and the precise boundaries of the satire needed to be very carefully defined, as is wise with any magic - limitations are very much a thing in most our-world traditions of magic. For example, you might want to curse somebody with uncomfortable blisters or itches, but you needed to make very sure that the effect would go away once the victim modified their behaviour, and would affect only them and not their family or clan, would not cause permanent damage or scarring, and such like limits.
Several of the Arabic traditions also have very elegant magical verse cursing traditions.
In re scavenging: in the elder days of the comments, there were many, many discussions which pointed out how very, very little would be usable by Y90; I know I looked up how plastic decays as research for fanfics, at the very least.
Also, Torbjorn is making a copy to send to the printers for reprinting, since the originals are too valuable to risk in that endeavor.
I find the apparent lack of scavenging a glaring omission. Minna was at some point (before All That) considering info pages on the economic structure of the Known World, which could have included something about that. For example that scavenging is strictly illegal after too many accidents (hence send a scientific investigation team and not looters). By Y90 they will have had time to have various different situations. But maybe Minna just wanted to be different from many (most?) post-apocalypse stories that tend to be scavenging-heavy.Could be that scavenging was not relevant to the stories. Our heroes had to scavenge a few times for various things.
If a building is in good enough shape to have readable books, wooden furniture in there would be usable too. Pots and pans and china or stoneware dishes would hold up as well. Wool lasts a long time if protected from water and vermin.
Back to the Map of the Known World! I loved it from the moment I saw it. I was interested before, but the map really caught my attention. I still remember gushing about it to my family (and their underwhelming response to it). And JoB had an interesting vision of the train design in use on the Sveavägen :)
Minna’s comments here make sad reading, though. She references her many plans, including a very very long journey off the confines of the Known World. And apparently plans to present a more detailed map of Iceland at some point. If only!
Oops, sorry, how could I forget about General Trond (retired)? But I think my other points might stand. (Note, also, that Mikkel's comments on Reynir's rune don't mean he doesn't believe in ANY runes, just ones made up by a shepherd with delusions. Even Tuuri has trouble believing in Reynir's magic.)
this whole "the world feels so vibrant, but it really is not fully thought out, is it?" thing
Most definitely. I love the Fan Fiction I have read so far.
In all, this whole "the world feels so vibrant, but it really is not fully thought out, is it?" thing is probably the best sort of state for a franchise to be in to inspire fanfiction.
That's really it, I think; not only about the books, or where the expedition goes, but pretty much everything about the worldbuilding. Vibrant; beautifully illustrated; interesting characters -- but the worldbuilding is in general just not thought out at all. Detailed, worked out information's given for isolated bits and pieces; but info given in one section doesn't match what happens in other parts of the story; and coherent background info for how either the human societies, or the ecology, or the Rash itself works is just nonexistent -- and I think not because Minna understood it but didn't get to explaining it before changing her belief system, but, I think, because Minna thinks and thought that it doesn't matter, and therefore either never bothered working it out or deliberately didn't work it out so that a coherent spelled-out framework wouldn't interfere with what she wanted to do with the story at any moment.
Earlier someone else was asking about governments in the various countries, and she handwaved it saying that the villages are self-governing but there are not central governments. This cannot possibly be the case as the countries have militaries and national scale projects.
I wonder if they just have militaries, without a central government.Historically, military powers without a government's power to control them tend to lead to the military being the government ...
for the U.S., a General would command an army of 50K or more, far more than the entire Known World could muster.NATO feels it necessary to maintain their own rank codes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_and_insignia_of_NATO) because the traditional terms already vary in meaning between member nations before any Rashy Heart medals were ever handed out. I have no problem with officers responsible for the whole of what we would label "theater" of a conflict being called "general". Or, for that matter, "admiral" Olsens fleet apparently consisting of tanks, while he states that the ships at his station are all other nations'.
I have the impression that Sigrun's parents are also Generals, but that may be from fanfic.I'm pretty sure that both being generals is canon, but couldn't pull a quote thereto out of my helmet ...
Historically, military powers without a government's power to control them tend to lead to the military being the government ...
I'm pretty sure that both being generals is canon, but couldn't pull a quote thereto out of my helmet ...Duh. It's right in Sigruns official bio (http://sssscomic.com/?id=characters) ...
chatlog_180818So, the above quote quotes a stream from 2018, which might be why people either missed or forgot about it.Spoiler: show
I seem to recall that Minna said that (some) Swedes and Danes would have access to the Norse gods, if they... trained or something. Am I misremembering? Can anyone find what I mean?Minna once stated that (IIRC specifically Danish) mages, or, more properly, magic-endowed people, exist, but they're much less frequent than in the magic-embracing nations and, of course, the general nonbelieving state of their domestic culture doesn't help any to hone those skills.
Anyway, if this is the case, then that does imply some sort of centralized culture or even policy per country, doesn't it?I don't quite get what you mean ... yes, the acceptance of magic as a real thing can be broadly derived from nationality, as both infopages and the in-comic conversations indicate. (I don't think that that qualifies as a "(full-fledged) culture" or "policy", though ...)
Q.: Can a non-Finnish person convert to Finnish belief system and if so, would they be treated like a Finn (having a Luonto, entry to Tuonela after death, and the like)?
A. (3:01:03): Hmmm. I think that would be trickier, because the Finnish gods aren’t really that involved in human interaction, or they don’t really interact with humans or pay much attention to them unless they are directly addressed or asked for favours. There’s no one who would be able to grant a converting Swede or something their luonto. That’s something that comes with birth. So I don’t think it would really work out. But I think the other way around could work, like someone could start worshipping the Norse gods, and one of them could be like “Yeah, I like this person, I’m gonna make sure they get into Valhalla and I will give them my favours.” But maybe some of them would be able to.. If Icelandic mage would want to become a Finnish mage, they would probably be able to, if they learn Finnish fluently, probably ask a favour of the Finnish gods and that way kinda become part of the Finnish world. But they wouldn’t be able to get a luonto, I don’t think. And getting into Tuonela - that would be tricky, I guess? Maybe you would be able to get into Tuonela if you were good enough or you had maybe another Finnish mage to kinda guide you, I guess you would need the guidance to get there. So if someone would be able to ask the Swan to bring you over instead of you going to Valhalla.. See, I didn’t really thought about that beforehand, so I’m speculating the rules of my own comic universe.
Q.: Oh my, I asked a hard question.
A. (3:05:24): Yes, it was! I think that would be one of those situations where maybe I wouldn’t want to give too specific answers, because.. Maybe it’s something that hasn’t really been tried a lot in the world yet, it wouldn’t have been that many years. A couple decades, maybe, since the Finns and other Norse people would have gotten into contact with each other. So there wouldn’t have been a lot of overlap in mages trying to adopt the other pantheon instead of their own. Like, why would you? Unless you’ve fallen in love with someone from one of the other countries. So there would be a lot of variables. Something would maybe be possible with enough trying and effort and power. And other things maybe would never be possible, because they will be things that are granted by birth. Or to birth. Or at birth?
Q.: Did Denmark, Norway or Sweden ever have their own mages?
A. (3:37:22): Yeah, they kinda do. Those who are discovered to have mage powers are usually trained in Iceland, since they are of the same stock, they don’t have different kinds of powers that the Icelandic ones, and Iceland has the best facilities for training.
I mean that, if there are people with talent in every country, but the expression of that talent somehow occurs, or doesn't occur, at the country level, then that implies that all the different parts of that country share something -- either policy, or strong cultural links. Or just religion, which can include elements from both?Well, yeah. As I said, we do have that, as evidenced by the info pages, as well as, e.g., Emil turning to Mikkel to discuss magic at one point, obviously expecting him to be as incredulous as himself. Only for much-traveled Mikkel to respond that he is somewhat open to the possibility.
If the situation were more like individual city-states, each with their own laws and customs, then i would expect the attitude to magic and existence of magic to be more fragmented.... that's a can of worms, probably. Preachers - if religious beliefs come into play - come a-knocking at the weirdest, otherwise isolated places. Just compare the situations before (continent-wide religious wars, with sides backed by back-then "superpowers") and after (regent of every itty bitty principality gets to pick) the Peace of Westphalia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Westphalia) ...
So, my current understanding is that a mage is any innately gifted person who is also religious. And that a magic-gifted Dane could decide to worship the gods and gain access to his powers.Hmmm, I was under the impression that a nation's general (non)adherence to the ancient religions was said to be the direct cause of even the talent (or "gift", as you call it) getting more or less frequent among its population, with lack of possibilities for a specific gifted person to get the required training being a second bottleneck to that nation's mage recruitment efforts. But that's just details, I suppose.
Let me clarify. Minna specifically raised the omen as something she originally had intended to show way to an adventure where omens play a big part. This was in stream within the last few months before the comic ended. The point was not what that particular omen was meant to predict, but that it was meant to be one of many and not the only one. Admittedly, Tuuri was the only one event of such magnitude, so it works as a stand alone too. But this was an example she gave herself.I didn't say you were wrong about that. I mentioned the omen being about Tuuri because...
So, the omen being about Tuuri’s death, and Minna having planned but later abandoned to use more omens in the future are both true.
...that one scene became kind of random. Which reminds me that I haven't read anything about it - I suppose everyone was waiting for whatever the omen predicted to happen in canon, and then it didn't,......which led me to believe that you'd either forgotten or never read that particular stream.
The other dams have power plants too, but this is the only one where I have find a spot where I can capture the water level on both sides at least somewhat visibly."Street"view to the rescue! (https://www.google.de/maps/@61.5002758,23.7620098,3a,75y,91.88h,78.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swkLMmcRHr1V8fpnG3PU6EQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
... Minnas map moved Tampere (with these rapids-to-be) from the East to the South of Nokia ...No, it didn't.
No, it didn't.Hmmmmmmm, granted, but. When you look at an actual North-oriented map (https://www.google.de/maps/@61.4392598,22.7490256,10z), Pori, Nokia, and Tampere are pretty much on the same latitude, and the orientation of the waters between them is identical to the main part of the p 86 map. Yet, p 86 shows Tampere below the still-rather-horizontal line through Pori and Nokia, and the "channel" in it that matches the Nokianvirta - starting out as a pretty straight prolongation of the tip of the Kulovesi - ends North of Tampere, rather than opposite Sankila (which is South off Nokia, actually, much less the longitude of Tampere). And it is marked as the path the boats take, so they get to avoid the Tammerkoski - if that one's still within Tampere, of course. :tuuri:
Look at the inset map: it shows that North is almost exactly the upper right corner of the main map, which makes East the lower right corner. Tampere is below and to the right of Nokia on the map, so almost due East.
Although the books are at the heart of the story, there's a real problem with the world-building around them. You can handwave that the Icelanders, Norwegians, and Finns went back to magic and therefore burned their books, but the Danes and Swedes didn't. The best you can do for the Swedes is that they used books as fuel when it was cold and too dangerous to go searching for firewood, but that doesn't seem to apply to the Danes, who were on their island and presumably not infested with trolls (Bornholm is "safe" not "cleansed"). And then, as tehta points out, even if you suppose that Swedes and Danes did burn their books for fuel or in reaction to the Rash, why aren't books now being scavenged, particularly in Sweden?Books are burned for political reasons, which is not exclusively religious. Any nation could it.
Oh, I only just noticed the settlement Vädeöarna and the red areas on islands of Læsø and Arnholt between Swedish west coast and Jylland. I wonder which country those belong to? By spelling, Väderöarna is Swedish and Læsø Danish or Norwegian but they are far from any other settlements in any of the countries.Going with the assumption they are not self-governing, wouldn't it be plausible that many of these more isolated and strangely placed (for want of a better term) could be claimed by whatever government said it was theirs or could have even passed hands later? Even changing more than once?
Similarly there is some red in the Åland islands, which nowadays are part of Finland although strictly Swedish-speaking. But those areas are relatively close to Skutskär in Sweden, so it is definitely part of Sweden whether they are descendants of Y0 locals or resettled from Sweden. The islands are very many and there aren’t many cetaceans in the Baltic (there are seals but even those aren’t extremely numerous) so the archipelago would be a good survival area all in all.
There is also discussion about there being red in the Shetland islands, but I’m not sure if that’s actually color or just loss of definition of the graphic. In some comment Minna says any survivors there may have been in the small northern islands that are currently part Scotland have migrated into Scandinavia, so probably it’s just a glitch in the graphic.
Join the ranks of the Cleansers! Or at least read about them here: http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=118Age 13 could just be for training and not the job itself. Though that’s not much better. IIRC Emil joined when he was 17 so (IRL) minors are accepted. And if 13 is just for training that would not necessarily mean that the age to serve would be much higher. Even with this theory, commonality of child labor can be inferred.
I had nagging feeling that it’s canon that people (can) get a job when the are 13, and here it is! Surely this is a good age to make decisions about your life (not to mention death). I also notice the poster mentions life insurance - I’m a bit surprised that such exists. The population seem a bit small. But assuming there is insurance available, the terms and exclusions manifest must be quite long indeed :)
Books are burned for political reasons, which is not exclusively religious. Any nation could it.
Also, we know that Iceland limits, if not restricts historical knowledge but do we have evidence that suggests the other nations do? Danes are noted for being well read. Norwegians may not often be well educated but that does not in and it of itself imply book burnings. Onni knows at least some history of churches so Finnish likely are not hiding their history like the Icelanders are. And as far as Sweden goes we mostly see Emil who is not well educated.
Going with the assumption they are not self-governing, wouldn't it be plausible that many of these more isolated and strangely placed (for want of a better term) could be claimed by whatever government said it was theirs or could have even passed hands later? Even changing more than once?
This may not even affect lifes in these areas by much. Hell, depending on their level of access to communication, they may not have even known for sometime.
Age 13 could just be for training and not the job itself. Though that’s not much better. IIRC Emil joined when he was 17 so (IRL) minors are accepted. And if 13 is just for training that would not necessarily mean that the age to serve would be much higher. Even with this theory, commonality of child labor can be inferred.
Lalli could have started even earlier! All we know is that he was training by eight, and that he had been taken out of school after two years. No idea when school would have started.We also know that mages tend to hear the Black Speech, whether they want to or not, and have to learn ways to ignore it, lest their mental health suffers from it. Try to put a minimum age on that. :3
I wonder what age is considered legally adult? Emil was an adult at 17 as he was able to make the decision, but the Cleanser poster doesn’t mention anything about a 13 yo needing a parental consent. The age limit text would be the part to include it. Are they considered independent adults at 13?The age of adulthood could very between the nations in SSSS.
I don't think the Cleanser poster is exhaustive. It leaves out things like health information (e.g. immunity status) which must surely be taken into consideration.Yes well -- considering their family was mostly gone when Onni himself was only 17, maybe not so much back then considering he would need some outsider to be his guardian-- Veeti or Taru maybe? Then again, when Tuuri decides to leave, yes - seeing as he is well over 25 by that point... as for Emil choosing Cleansers at 17- - well, if his parents were dead (as he was attending the public school now) maybe he could just choose that option all by himself. Anyway-- was his home school main subject hair-style management or something? Particularly knowing what his cousins like to do and how awesome his hair somehow stays.
Also, we don't actually know that Emil didn't have to get parental permission! It's not the sort of thing he would mention.
The 'when-are-you-an-adult' thing has varied wildly across cultures. I believe that in its later stages the Roman Empire had a pretty wild disparity between when a boy stopped being a child (and could fight in the army, etc) which happened at 14-18 or so (depending on the time period) and when he became a man considered capable of making his own big decisions. (Around 25, ha -- before that he would have to go through a guardian.) That's a law Onni would have appreciated, I am sure.
Particularly knowing what his cousins like to do and how awesome his hair somehow stays.
considering their family was mostly gone when Onni himself was only 17, maybe not so much back then considering he would need some outsider to be his guardian