Post by: thegreyarea on August 28, 2020, 12:32:48 PM
"The Finnish ancestors were on a boat when the Rash truly hit, and it stands to reason that other survivors in the Saimaa lake system were as well. Also, boats tend to stay operational longer than cars, as you can put up makeshift sails, if nothing else. Thus, it stands to reason that the Finns took a while to settle down on land again, in particular, on Toivosaari ..." That sparked Jitter's imagination:
"Well, yes, but since the story is set in Y12, they must have established at the very least some fields on land somewhere :) Which makes me think of a really cool post apocalyptic water town made of old boats and various odds and ends, maybe circa Y10-30. I wish I could draw!".
---
And I volunteered on drawing something, we kept talking about it and arrived here, on a new thread to house what will, hopefully, become an interesting scenario, inspiring Minnions to create amazing things (as usual :) )
Of course anyone is welcomed to contribute with drawings, stories, and whatever you see fit. I'll try to somehow create a general view of the town...
(wish me luck :) ).
---
I'll start by reposting a little sketch that I made as an initial attempt to depict one "residential unit" of said village, one where some people we know would be living...
(https://i.postimg.cc/G2wjPP71/Hotakainens-House-Y25.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FfpcNSXP)
Post by: Jitter on August 28, 2020, 03:46:17 PM
I hope others will also hop on board (pun intended) and add ideas, art and stories! Alkia promised already :)
Here are the inspirational links I quickly collected yesterday:
Inspiration (Everyone check out the Swimming Cities! Cool!)
Swimming Cities (art project): https://www.todseelie.com/swimming-cities (click on the photo to get more). The same photographer's other projects and events are also interesting. Here's also his blog: https://blog.todseelie.com/
More of the same project: https://www.flickr.com/photos/caseorganic/9391866510/in/photostream/
The Uros people of lake Titicaca have built their villages on floating islands for defensive purposes. They aren't quite as cool looking, but still, see here: https://www.globeguide.ca/uros-reed-islands-lake-titicaca/ and herehttps://www.123rf.com/photo_38985653_lake-titicaca-floating-villages.html for example. They seem to have a slightly more Finnish approach to division of space https://fineartamerica.com/featured/floating-islands-of-uros-lake-titicaca-peru-ashwin-atre.html (although nowadays the villages are kinda touristy)
Sausalito has a congregation of houseboats: http://luneblog.com/blog/2015/8/20/houseboats-of-sausalito
Here is concept art for the game Flotsam (I think it's the same game you linked): https://www.behance.net/gallery/24057421/Flotsam-Environment-Art
Random fantasy art:
https://fi.pinterest.com/pin/591167888568228414/
https://www.goodfon.com/wallpaper/risunok-gorod-zdaniia-fantasy-art-fantastika-concept-art-ste.html
Materials / what kind of vessels there could be:
As for plausible materials, there are no great big cruise ships on Saimaa, but there are some:
https://www.gosaimaa.com/fi/Tekemiset/Risteilyt/Risteilyt?n=MS-Carelia---Saimaa-Travel&id=7a186e33-007e-4b7b-a9ec-526825f0dda8
https://www.gosaimaa.com/fi/Tekemiset/Risteilyt/Risteilyt
https://visitsavonlinna.fi/sisavesiristeilyt/
The Joensuu deep harbour has a deep shipping lane into it, cargo ships of this size go there: https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/RMS-SAIMAA-IMO-9313694-MMSI-304832000
https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/BALTIC-SKIPPER-IMO-9138185-MMSI-236039000
(these are of course limited in where they can be moved to)
There are also ice breakers stationed on the Saimaa system: https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/icebreakers_punch_through_saimaa_canal/11282087
An ice breaker would make a cool centerpiece for the village!
There are also several road ferries, which might be useful as they have a flat surface and a tower. These move by pulling cables but could be towed with a strong craft. They can fit about 10-14 passenger cars depending on the craft in question. They are yellow. Like this:
https://www.picuki.com/tag/kuparonvirranlossi
Except for this big one: https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-10702399
As for the natural setting, it can be open water, nestled among islands, connecting to a section of old road, there can be small flat islands or high rocky cliff islands...
https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-5340393
https://retkipaikka.fi/kattaus-kauneinta-saimaata-puumalan-norppapolulla-paaset-heti-ihanuuksien-lahelle/
https://retkipaikka.fi/ehkapa-suomen-komein-linnavuori-sijaitsee-saimaalla-tallainen-on-pisamalahden-eli-sulkavan-linnavuori/
https://retkipaikka.fi/rokansaari-melojan-kesaparatiisi-saimaalla/
https://retkipaikka.fi/sieva-hiekkaluoto-keskella-saimaata-tallainen-on-piskuinen-hiekkapakka/
https://retkipaikka.fi/sauna-silokalliot-ja-saimaa-luonterin-saarissa-on-kaikkea-mita-ihminen-tarvitsee/
This just because it's gorgeous: nature's ice art on Saimaa: https://retkipaikka.fi/jaataidetta-pien-saimaalla/
[/quote]
Post by: Jitter on August 31, 2020, 02:08:51 PM
I’d like to see the original cut because it sounds interesting. The flood and the dry land thing would probably still be kind of argh, but maybe there is something to all of it :)
Waterworld has since been the most popular attraction in the Universal studios theme parks, so it’s definitely worth something :)
EDIT there is a cut called the Ulysses Cut, which apparently isn’t quite as bad: http://schlockmania.com/waterworld-ulysses-cut/
Post by: thegreyarea on September 04, 2020, 09:02:58 PM
Back to our town, I've gathered a few ideas for what a floating town in Y25-30 should be. I'll put them below and would love to hear opinions. The arrangement of all those things would have to be an "organic" one. Nothing too organized but rather a "medieval town" feeling, with sinuous "streets", much proximity (in the central area) and some confusion. After all this would have been a settlement made by gradual accretion and not careful planning.
Spoiler: show
), Wind turbine, Aquaculture grid (small - 5x5m aprox.), Support building(s) (workshop, hen house, etc...) Some row boats and/or kayaks and/or small rafts (for short trips inside town) and smaller items like plants in pots, flags...I'd like to have some drawings to show, but I didn't had time to do it yet. Also I'll be out in a little trip this weekend, so I'd invite anyone that feels that this is an interesting scenario to advance with ideas and suggestions, so I can try to create something more "real" in the coming week.
Butter Good!
Post by: Mirasol on September 05, 2020, 10:15:45 AM
One question, I´m not sure whether it´s super important for that premise or whether you did in fact think about it and I just overread it:
How do they make sure the city stays remotely at the same place? After all, should the entire thing float too close to the shores, trolls or beasts could get there. And as it is on open water, what kind of emergency-plan do they have in case of a storm where boats could sink or drift away? I don´t think storms are that bad over lakes as they don´t really have waves like the sea, but drifting apart could be a problem. Are some storage units and/or the main boat fixated with anchors, ropes or wooden beams (like Venice), so the boats that are in need of being still operational to change locations can just be fixated on these points if necessary? Or maybe there could just be more buoys like the ones that keep the fence in place distributed over the city, so every now and then there is a fixpoint the living units can be attached to so floating too far apart doesn´t happen, yet they don´t have to rely on attaching everything to everything and can keep a bit of distance and privacy without endangering themselves.
Post by: thegreyarea on September 05, 2020, 12:52:05 PM
Good question. IMHO each residential unit is anchored separately at some distance from the others so they drift a little but don't collide.
The elements in the central area, physicaly connected with pedestrian walkways, would also be anchored, but will have to be tied to each other allowing them to move together but with some degree of flexibility.
The locationn must be a balance between being nested among islands to protect from weather, and, as you said, far enough to avoid attacks.
Buoys wouldn't help a lot, because they also drift with waves, but poles could work. Would they have the equippment to fix them to the botton? How deep are the lakes? I'll have to think about it...
I'd love to see the sims version!
:)
Post by: Jitter on September 05, 2020, 05:54:02 PM
Grey, very good ideas! But, actually, I think your vision is bit too well designed :) I mean I would like to see it a bit more haphazard, partially because Mad Max apocalypse aesthetics but also because this town has been abandoned somewhere between Y30 and Y90. So if it’s too good, it would still exist in Y90. By Y25 it wouldn’t be just a lot of boats anchored in the same place, but being completely encircled (twice!) by the lake fence seems a bit more organized than what I was thinking. Now obviously I don’t mean that you or anyone must do what I say :) but you asked for comments.
Also the resources to construct the lake fences like you described them wouldn’t necessarily be around in Y25. I don’t think they would much industry ongoing and I can’t think what old world things could be repurposed for such a big design.
On the other hand they would definitely have defenses by that time. What do you think of more piecemeal fortifications, an “inner town” more strongly protected and clusters of living flotillas around it which have their own defenses? In addition the whole area would have sentinel towers and some sort of guard boats. There are seal beasts (not huge number because the seals only number under 500 nowadays) and the occasional aquatic troll, but no whale-size beasts.
I very much like the cargo ship market! A town of this size with no farmland would need a constant flow of food from the outside. Could there be a smaller(?) outside market where immune traders meet other people to trade food and transport it to the town market then? There has to be trading and therefore a way to meet without 2 week quarantines all the time, and if the traders are known to be immune it could work?
Post by: thegreyarea on September 05, 2020, 08:32:57 PM
What if we find a location with several islands around so they just needed to put a few nets between them to protect the whole area? Something to think about...
The main reason for the city to be abandoned would be the gradual degradation of the boats, that would increase with time. After 3 or 4 decades the need to move back to land would become clear. A special event, like a fire or a big water beast attack could speed up the transition to land.
Post by: Mirasol on September 09, 2020, 04:27:59 PM
It´s so far just the exterior.
Spoiler: show
Somewhere in the middle of building I realized I have been misspelling one of my building cheats to unlock specific items for ever since I had the game, and now I am standing in front of a whole new world of cool rocks, actual boats and post-apocalypticy-looking metal bridges (that were all too big for the lot I was using), so please excuse me for the next couple of weeks as I try to find the biggest lot in my game and attempt to build an entire lake.
Post by: thegreyarea on September 09, 2020, 05:52:37 PM
Post by: Jitter on September 10, 2020, 02:27:16 PM
Mirasol, those are cool! Water towers are still used to uphold pressure, they are just a bit larger when it's for an entire city (well, part of an entire city). For example near to our house is a water tower with 4 tanks of 2000 cubic meters each and another one in Espoo has volume 13600 cubic meters.
Grey, how large do you reckon one of those residential units would be? I'm thinking about a setting. How about the core area would have formed in a spot where there is a causeway road and perhaps a small island. Something like this: https://asiointi.maanmittauslaitos.fi/karttapaikka/?lang=fi&share=customMarker&n=6808443.415914923&e=557306.6050314179&title=causeway&desc=&zoom=9&layers=%5B%7B%22id%22%3A2%2C%22opacity%22%3A100%7D%2C%7B%22id%22%3A3%2C%22opacity%22%3A0%7D%5D (you can turn on aerial photo on the left in the control that says ILMAKUVA)
The causeway would have been blown up (or, there is nearly always a part which is a bridge, so that would be blown up) and at first the remaining causeway would have formed the boundary of the town in one direction, spikes arranged outwards from it etc. Then a large ship or a couple would have been driven to the bottom there to act as another boundary so that the most protected area is between the causeway and the ships, the sections between could have the netting. This would be the best area, but as more people gathered, there would be jetties and strings of units around, some with their own defenses and some outside. I'm just having trouble working out how large an area it would have to be.
On the other hand I think 1500 is a bit large, the total population of Saimaa is 5500 in Y90 and 1500 people would be a sizable city in Y90 anywhere outside Iceland. Although I have to admit I have no idea whether the population in Y25 would have been larger or smaller than Y90. My initial thought is smaller, but I'm not really sure.
So something sort of like this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7Z4qYnsZ/Floating-Town.png)
The blue ones are the ships, lighting bolts are gun turrets, the red stars lake defenses of some sort and the suns residential. The one ship farther away is the outer market, and the triangle on the small island close to it the quarantine facility. Lammassaari would be agricultural and additionally there would be fields in some of the other islands, but those are dangerous. Halkosaari (the smallest one) is part of the town. What do you think?
Post by: thegreyarea on September 11, 2020, 06:09:50 AM
I was also looking for a location. Found two good places closer to Lalli's island, but the one you suggested seems quite interesting, with just a small tweak: I'd place the entire town North of the causeway, because larger boats would not be able to cross it, and any connection with larger land areas would be a dangerous place.
So I'd set the town along the Uittamoinselka. There the causeway creates a barrier on the South side, and there could be water barrier, with nets and a gate, on the North, therefore protecting the whole lake from water beasts without spending too many resources like my initial proposal of an encircling fence.
The town would be always away from land, at least 100 metres. The only exception would be the small island of Tetriluoto. It could be the "anchor" for the central area, with some poles fixed to the bottom and the bigger boats around it. The city could also have a land gate on the South side, in Halkosaari (the small island at the middle of the causeway), because it's a good defensive point, with just the narrow causeway as passage. Connection from the town to the South Gate could be done with one of those small ferries that you mentioned before. Both gates would have quarantine installations.
So here's a general scheme. The town area would be the shadowed one. The gates and barriers are in orange, and the outside market would be the purple circle. The islands in green could be used for cattle and farming (with some caution).
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1R2SjWR/town-location-v1-1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
The 1500-2000 people reference seems reasonable to me (I was thinking on an impressive town) because I believe the population on those years would be larger than on Y90. But that's just me, Minna never gave AFAIK any info about that. I can explain later why I think that, but now I have to go.
Along the weekend we can discuss and develop it further, and I'd draw things with more detail. BTW that map tool that you indicated with your link is great! Thanks!
Of course I'd also love to hear more opinions and suggestions from our fellow Minnions! :)
Post by: Jitter on September 11, 2020, 10:14:34 AM
Anyways I think this group of islands is the one that is marked with one red (protected) settlement in the middle and several blue ones around it, and large agricultural area to the east. It would make sense for the Y90 settlements to be close to where the boat town was at first. Liimattalansaari and Niinisaari to the east are largish islands but could are off from mainland (there is a ferry between Niinisaari and Junninmäki over Hätinvirta although it looks like a bridge on the map) so they would be good to make farming areas later.
Depth maps or navigational charts are not generally available online but I managed to find a publication that shows the depths over part of this area. It's here: https://docplayer.fi/52784908-Lappeenrannan-moottoriveneseura.html on page 27.
Understanding whether the large ships could somehow be moved there requires more knowledge about navigation than I have, but we don't really need to have a real-real location :) The black line on the map that extends from the north between Laihasaari and Kortesaari to where you have the Outer Market is a shipping / boating lane with minimum depth 2,4 m, but most of the area is much deeper. Assuming that map IS a depth map... but I don't see what else it would be.
Post by: thegreyarea on September 11, 2020, 06:55:19 PM
BTW I learned that those big cargo ships that you pointed previously are the largest that can operate in the Saimaa system because they match the maximum size that fits in the locks of the Saimaa Canal. Their draught when loaded is 4.4m, but if unloaded is much less and I'm quite sure that they could reach our location. :)
Tomorrow I'll try to advance a little more. Butter Good!
Post by: thegreyarea on September 16, 2020, 06:11:59 AM
I had a busy weekend so couldn't make much progress. But this little town didn't left my head...
So here's a little sketch to show how it could be in the day a young Ensi comes back to her town after a visit to the South Gate Market. I hope you like it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vm07SNMW/Young-Ensi-arrives-at-the-floating-town.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/GBss4z42)
Note there are many birds around. It's my belief that birds population would skyrocket in those initial decades, being free from most predators (and from us). Also fish would be one of the main food sources in this town, and where there's easily accessible fish there will be birds... :)
I also imagined that something like a Town Hall could be built over the big ship that dominates the central area.
BTW wouldn't make more sense if the outside markets were located near the city gates? This way people from the outside wouldn't enter the city safe perimeter. The South market could be in the small island, and the boat to be used as floating market for those arriving by boat could be moved to be next to the North Gate.
Post by: Jitter on September 16, 2020, 03:05:16 PM
And of course, great illustration! Maybe add some more grit though? The boat Ensi is using is new of course, but some of the living boats would be deteriorating?
Post by: thegreyarea on September 16, 2020, 07:07:41 PM
The main safety question is that the city it's a Rash-free zone, where non-immunes can wander freely, while anyone from the outside can potentially be infected, except the ones known to be immunes.
I have a clear idea of how these markets layout could work, and will try to post an illustration tomorrow. :)
Now, about defending from other humans... Human nature is such that it's probable that occasional robbery or assault could happen, considering the scarcity.
But so far we saw evidence of a strong social order among the survivors (following the Nordics societies actual practice in that matter). Moreover, any bandits acting (or living) in the Silent World would face the inherent risks, which would reduce their number in time.
So I'd expect bandits to exist but in a limited form and acting only on isolated areas. Lone travelers or small groups crossing the Silent World between settlements would have to worry with that additional risk.
I can see a potential Wild West scenario here... but with monsters! A nice idea for a story, don't you think? "The Good, the Bad and the Troll" or "Once upon a time in the Silent World" could be good names... :)
Post by: Jitter on September 23, 2020, 07:58:44 AM
On the upper right corner there are the tools. The one showing a pile of papers (??), i.e. second from the top is the Map Layers. Click on the layers and a menu opens. On the upper part of the menu you can choose background map(s). Under that there is a list of various targets you can show on the map. At the bottom, click "syvyyskäyrät" to show the depths. If you press the drop you can make the markings stronger, they are a bit pale to start with.
ps there may be announcements on the upper part of the map window which hide the tools. On these you can click "ohita" (pass) to remove the announcement. On the bottom there is the cookie announcement "tämä verkkosivusto käyttää evästeitä", click "hyväksy" to approve. This service is by a Finnish state agency so should be pretty ok :)
The area we chose is pretty deep in the middle, under -20 m!
Post by: thegreyarea on September 30, 2020, 06:51:49 AM
Sorry for taking so long to answer, but I've been very busy lately.
But I finally finished that drawing with the market and the gate! Here it is!
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4Sv4bWT/North-Gate-Market.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0zS0VLtR)
The market building is show in a cut to make the interior layout visible. To keep buyers safe I'm imagining two internal areas, separated by a glass barrier that allows the merchandise to be seen. Buyers would indicate what they want and sellers would put it all in a cart (where had I seen something like that? :) ). After one finished buying it would proceed to a payment point. After that they would clean the items in a chamber with UV lights - not show here, would be in the non-visible top of the building - and deliver it to the buyer.
The gate is defined by two parallel barges that create a channel with gates in both ends, working as an airlock to prevent any waterbeasts to go inside the perimeter. We can see here an outgoing boat waiting for the external gate to open.
In one barge we would have the market, and in the other personal accommodations and maintenance. A nearby boat would work as quarantine facility.
I hope that the grit is more evident now. I had a lot of fun adding it, and it surely makes things more realistic inside our context. :)
Post by: Jitter on September 30, 2020, 08:51:19 AM
Post by: Buteo on September 30, 2020, 04:29:14 PM
Saw this illustration for the floating town market, then had to pick my jaw up off the desk and wire it back on.
This is beautiful, detailed, believable design!
I need to keep trying to carve some time out of my days to stay in touch with this project.
Post by: Keep Looking on October 01, 2020, 08:44:56 AM
Post by: Róisín on October 01, 2020, 09:23:58 AM
Post by: thegreyarea on October 02, 2020, 07:54:56 AM
Jitter, yes, cats! I regret now just adding two cats. I should have made it a game: "There are 8 cats in this image, can you find them?". I'll try next time...
And I'm quite happy with the half-sunk boats too. Expect more. :)
Buteo, I hope the jaw is fine, and also hope that you don't mind if I keep trying to make it fall again! :D
Róisín, I'm actually an architect (buildings and occasional shots at design) and have some works dealing with gardens, parks and river restoration, but almost always with the support of a landscape architect in my team. I love that area of expertise and wish I had time to study it too. :)
Next I'm going to try to depict the town central area. Or maybe young Ensi at her home. Or... I have so many ideas!
I also think the young Ensi's stories would be perfect. There are so many ways to look at it: Being one of the first mages and discovering her powers, connecting herself with Nature, spirits and deities, living in a floating town with lots of older people that saw their world and their old lives obliterated by a disease that they still didn't understood, being divided between the memories of the old world and embracing the new one, coming of age in the middle of all that, with relations (and love) affected by this context...
Post by: Jitter on October 02, 2020, 08:34:55 AM
I'm not writing this myself, I don't have time. No, I don't.
Young Ensi would be wonderful!
Post by: Mirasol on October 04, 2020, 12:55:24 PM
I also very much like your silly story idea, Jitter, though I sadly don´t have the time to write it either. :(